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Hellspawn28 wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
shinmaru wrote:
And Dragon Ball is a action anime not horror anime like Berserk
Why can't it do both? The introduction of Cell in Dragon Ball Z was heavily atmospheric. The manner in which the audience is shown something is what leaves a lasting impression.
The scene where Cell absorbs that person in Ginger Town was pretty gross, but that was only once really. I feel like DBZ should not be horror since the series was always a action adventure series with comedy and sci-fi elements in it . Besides I still feel like Super will start going for a serious tone once ROF happens and possible into U6 as well.
Back from a few days deliberately refraining from posting (writing way too much and repeating myself over and over on too many issues).
The later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ did have a dark tone to it, but it's in the middle, they can't be called or deemed nor comic (despite numerous instances of comic/random(ness)/non-sense relief, nor horror stories either. There's no clear, official distinction in the manga, it's all Dragon Ball, but they deliberately went for a clear distinction between the end of Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr.'s arcs to the arrival of Raditz, since that marks the introduction of warriors from OUTSIDE Earth, also presenting us with the fact that Goku's freakish strength and endurance, along with his tail (and "ability" to go Oozaru), seen throughout DB, has actually to do directly with the fact that he's an alien belonging to a long-lost race of gifted warriors who just happened to work/have worked for a galactic, genocidal tyrant who was in control of a large chunk of the North part of the Universe. The ominousness/seriousness/drama of these concepts, along with the more serious tone and insane fighting and skyrocketting power levels in the Saiya-jin arc, ultimately leading up to the departure to Namek and the final showdown with Freeza's soldiers and Freeza himself in the Freeza arc, made DBZ achieve, at certain points, a degree of darkness that made the general public bring psychiatrists over to analyze just how this stuff was affecting kids' and teenagers' behavior at the peak of its fever, when everyone between the ages of 10 to 20 devoured the series, back in the 80's and 90's. It's far, far away from being as bloody and dark as a numerous lists of anime/manga series, but it does have NUMEROUS instances of extreme violence (Piccolo kills two brothers with a piercing wave of demonic light, drilling a hole in both of them, after which one of them spits out blood more than once, Vegeta ruthlessly executes his comrade, Nappa rips Tenshinhan's arm off with a brutal punch, Ginyu drills a hole in his chest, Freeza rips Nail's arm off, Dodoria kills Muuri by breaking his neck, after he brutally slaughters a number of warrior-type Namek-sei-jins, Freeza horribly tortures Vegeta and pierces his heart, Freeza makes Krillin brutally blow up in front of his best friends, Zarbon gives Vegeta a brutal beating, Vegeta ruthlessly executes a numerous amount of Freeza's low and top soldiers, Vegeta drills a hole through Zarbon, who squirts blood from it, Dr. Gero drills a hole through Yamcha's chest, after which the latter spouts blood from it, Cell absorbs tens of thousands of humans through his tail and later kills thousands of people in the islands, he powers up with the aura consisting of the screaming humans he horribly absorbed, Cell mercilessly annihilates an entire army of helpless human soldiers, Cell blows a hole right through Piccolo's chest after he brutally breaks his neck, Yakon brutally devours two minions, Majin Buu blows up Babidi's head, after which the latter's body still moves, Super Buu annihilates - almost - every single human on the face of Earth with a single martial arts move, etc.)
DB initially started out as a comic set of random tales about a strong kid with monkey traits, but Toriyama eventually, at some point, reached the darkest recesses of his mind and made the series and events gradually evolve to - and to basically summarize the second half of my previous paragraph - portray evil-incarnate demons bent on conquering the Earth (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), genocidal maniacal aliens bent on attaining immortality and ruling the entire Universe (Vegeta in his early days, Freeza), insanely powerful cyborgs bent on killing Goku and exterminating Earth and every single of its inhabitants (Cell) and magically-created creatures whose only purpose is to destroy everyone and everything in sight (Kid Buu). All of these were full-fledged charismatic psychotic villains, Piccolo Daimao is the definition of evil and, along with his sons, kills an enormous amount of people, Vegeta is a smaller version of Freeza when he's first introduced, a ruthless extremely powerful warrior with absolutely no sympathy towards life and a mass murderer, Freeza has directly and indirectly killed and enslaved countless races and planets and performs genocides on a frequent basis, Cell has no sympathy towards life except his own and sees no problem in absorbing at least tens of thousands of humans in a HORRIFIC way through his tail or killing thousands of people just to try to flush out #18 from the islands, and Kid Buu probably doesn't even understand the concepts of "good" and "evil" or the difference between them, he just destroys everything with his massive power because that's what he does.
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garfield15 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:
-About the the new ending-
Funniest thing about changing the ending is that the opening is what sucks.
The ending is awesome. The opening is bad and they will keep it until the end. They will probably just change some clips like they did with Kai.
Exactly. The first "round" of Kai from 2009 to 2011, while retaining the same opening theme, had a total of four different animation sequences in the second half, one for each arc that was running at the time (one for the Saiya-jin arc, one for the Freeza arc, one for the Jinzouningen arc and one for the Cell arc). It would seem more than likely that DBSuper as a TV series will do the same and do some tweaks to the animation of the opening (although we do get hints to both the Freeza arc - Vegeta and Goku fighting the Freeza army-armored soldiers - and the 6th Universe arc - the appearance of Champa and his attendant), besides a mere change to the silhouette seen when the episode title is shown (in the Beerus arc we obviously get Beerus, in the Freeza arc we'll obviously get Freeza and one could only speculate on what we'll get by the 6th Universe arc, but it could be Champa or some other, real main villain from the 6th Universe).
All of this time we've been talking as if there wasn't going to be anything BEYOND the 6th Universe arc in DBSuper as a series, which would have some similarities with GT (also three main arcs and a much lower number of episodes when compared to DB and DBZ), but until we get official info or get to the point of the conclusion of the 6th Universe arc there's no way to tell whether or not they'll go beyond that, perhaps even jumping out of the 10 year gap between the defeat of Kid Buu and the last 3 episodes of DBZ that we seen to be "stuck" in in the 2008 Special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper.
Our previous estimates seem to be accurate, the Beerus arc's retelling of the events of BoG will take about 12 episodes, after which we'll most likely get two smoother episodes (where I'd really like to see some stuff and events which happened off-screen at some point in-between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events) building up to the Freeza arc, which should also be completed within about 12/14 episodes. It could thus be speculated that we should be moving on the 6th Universe arc by episode 24/26.
The length of the 6th Universe arc in terms of number of episodes is a total mystery, but taking into account that for a number of reasons it will certainly be the longest one, and if DBSuper does end at its conclusion, the series should last/run for no longer than 56/60 episodes; I just can't see the 6th Universe arc stretching out so much as the arcs in DB and DBZ, back in the 80's and 90's there was the entire immensity of filler material which comprised about 50% of the anime (sometimes even entire arcs, like the Garlic Jr. one).
What I would REALLY like to see, and this absolutely needs to happen, is Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God himself, his and Goku's decision to train under Whis at the latter's request or otherwise, and Freeza training. These three events "happened" off-screen at some point in-between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the movies' version of events, we NEED to see them on-screen in DBSuper. Taking two or three episodes to cover it would be much, much better than "wasting" them in smoother stuff with no real deep meaning or interest.
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Back from a few days deliberately refraining from posting (writing way too much and repeating myself over and over on too many issues).
The later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ did have a dark tone to it, but it's in the middle, they can't be called or deemed nor comic (despite numerous instances of comic/random(ness)/non-sense relief, nor horror stories either. There's no clear, official distinction in the manga, it's all Dragon Ball, but they deliberately went for a clear distinction between the end of Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr.'s arcs to the arrival of Raditz, since that marks the introduction of warriors from OUTSIDE Earth, also presenting us with the fact that Goku's freakish strength and endurance, along with his tail (and "ability" to go Oozaru), seen throughout DB, has actually to do directly with the fact that he's an alien belonging to a long-lost race of gifted warriors who just happened to work/have worked for a galactic, genocidal tyrant who was in control of a large chunk of the North part of the Universe. The ominousness/seriousness/drama of these concepts, along with the more serious tone and insane fighting and skyrocketting power levels in the Saiya-jin arc, ultimately leading up to the departure to Namek and the final showdown with Freeza's soldiers and Freeza himself in the Freeza arc, made DBZ achieve, at certain points, a degree of darkness that made the general public bring psychiatrists over to analyze just how this stuff was affecting kids' and teenagers' behavior at the peak of its fever, when everyone between the ages of 10 to 20 devoured the series, back in the 80's and 90's. It's far, far away from being as bloody and dark as a numerous lists of anime/manga series, but it does have NUMEROUS instances of extreme violence (Piccolo kills two brothers with a piercing wave of demonic light, drilling a hole in both of them, after which one of them spits out blood more than once, Vegeta ruthlessly executes his comrade, Nappa rips Tenshinhan's arm off with a brutal punch, Ginyu drills a hole in his chest, Freeza rips Nail's arm off, Dodoria kills Muuri by breaking his neck, after he brutally slaughters a number of warrior-type Namek-sei-jins, Freeza horribly tortures Vegeta and pierces his heart, Freeza makes Krillin brutally blow up in front of his best friends, Zarbon gives Vegeta a brutal beating, Vegeta ruthlessly executes a numerous amount of Freeza's low and top soldiers, Vegeta drills a hole through Zarbon, who squirts blood from it, Dr. Gero drills a hole through Yamcha's chest, after which the latter spouts blood from it, Cell absorbs tens of thousands of humans through his tail and later kills thousands of people in the islands, he powers up with the aura consisting of the screaming humans he horribly absorbed, Cell mercilessly annihilates an entire army of helpless human soldiers, Cell blows a hole right through Piccolo's chest after he brutally breaks his neck, Yakon brutally devours two minions, Majin Buu blows up Babidi's head, after which the latter's body still moves, Super Buu annihilates - almost - every single human on the face of Earth with a single martial arts move, etc.)
DB initially started out as a comic set of random tales about a strong kid with monkey traits, but Toriyama eventually, at some point, reached the darkest recesses of his mind and made the series and events gradually evolve to - and to basically summarize the second half of my previous paragraph - portray evil-incarnate demons bent on conquering the Earth (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), genocidal maniacal aliens bent on attaining immortality and ruling the entire Universe (Vegeta in his early days, Freeza), insanely powerful cyborgs bent on killing Goku and exterminating Earth and every single of its inhabitants (Cell) and magically-created creatures whose only purpose is to destroy everyone and everything in sight (Kid Buu). All of these were full-fledged charismatic psychotic villains, Piccolo Daimao is the definition of evil and, along with his sons, kills an enormous amount of people, Vegeta is a smaller version of Freeza when he's first introduced, a ruthless extremely powerful warrior with absolutely no sympathy towards life and a mass murderer, Freeza has directly and indirectly killed and enslaved countless races and planets and performs genocides on a frequent basis, Cell has no sympathy towards life except his own and sees no problem in absorbing at least tens of thousands of humans in a HORRIFIC way through his tail or killing thousands of people just to try to flush out #18 from the islands, and Kid Buu probably doesn't even understand the concepts of "good" and "evil" or the difference between them, he just destroys everything with his massive power because that's what he does.
Dude, you need to work on using paragraphs. Not trying to pick a fight, but a lot of your posts are gigantic walls of text that are very often hard to read.
Sorry, I'm gradually adapting my way of writing to make it more readable over time. I'm all about content, and I do think everybody already knows I tend to overwrite and repeat myself over and over on a number of issues. Can't help it, but I'm working on it. I hope the almost entire lack of paragraphs didn't prevent you from reading my thoughts, at least. Whenever I come up with huge posts I'll try to break them down between several paragraphs to make it easier to read. At least you intended to read this last one, hope you could despite the difficulties presented.
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Doctor. wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:
Perhaps this is said before, but is Gregory canon or not? He appears in the anime (super) not BOG or manga.
There is no "canon". He was designed by Toriyama himself and appears in the Z anime, Kai, the 2008 JSAT special (along with its manga counterpart) and Super. Take that as you will.
I agree, "cannoness" is a concept which is hard to describe. It's much easier to just theorize that "canon" is whatever doesn't generate plot holes/inconsistencies or contradicts the stream/sequence of events from DB and DBZ (which would include, just for example's sake, Movie 9). I guess that's the best way to look at it.
Araki wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
Also this. Super so far is fully a project of Toei, much like Dragon Ball/Z anime was, only with having no Toriyama's manga as base, so inclining towards GT.
They're not doing new BoG and RoF arcs from scratch, they're adaptations from movies where Toriyama directly worked, so the movies work like the manga worked for DB/Z, as an original source, while GT was pretty much 100% Toei's baby.
Even is Toriyama is now entirely focused on the U6 arc (which i believe to be the case), they're still using tidbits that didn't make the cut, Toriyama's revelations from interviews, adding foreshadowing, etc. They know where they are and where they want to go thanks to his involvement. So i think that, for Toei, the production has been much more like DB/Z than GT. If somehow the show goes beyond the U6 arc and Toriyama gets a lot less involved, than it would be inclining towards GT, even if Toei keeps building up on his ideas (coming up with new universes, etc).
That's why GT was so awful despite its somewhat large potential. It was made right after DBZ ended, and Toriyama made it clear he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible (hence the unsatisfactory ending to the series in those last 3 episodes) due to the fact he was - understandably - tired of supporting the pressure of having to consistently and constantly come up with ideas for new characters, stages and events on an incessant basis for a decade; therefore, no Toriyama in GT, which automatically decreased the series' quality. It was also made for commercial purposes, took on the worst of DBZ had by the Majin Buu arc and on none of what made all the arcs of DB and DBZ so fantastic, and got totally or partially rid of previously main characters and warriors with fantastic backgrounds. These are GT's main flaws, in my view.
No matter what they come up with in DBSuper, it will not only be superior to GT, it also needs to be looked at and analyzed from a totally new perspective. It's being done 18 years after the last series ended, with all that entails and is partially based on/retelling the stories of two theatrical features from two years and a few months ago, respectively. The only way there's some distant and faint similarity between GT and DBSuper is the fact that by the exploration of the 6th Universe arc they'll also go outside of Earth and look for a new set of Dragon Balls as well (and the potential length of the TV series, in terms of number of episodes and arcs).
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I said last week I wasn't going to use numbers, and I'll keep that position, I'll just generate an another, slightly updated personal list (and this time I'll go beyond the Majin Buu arc and DBSuper and include some warriors from the Cell arc):
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Base Goku with abilities and power of SSJG
7 - Base Vegeta with abilities and power of SSJG
8 - Super Vegitto (hypothetical Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation)
9 - Super Vegitto (hypothetical Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation)
10 - Super Vegitto (Super Saiya-jin)
11 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
12 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
13 - Vegeta (Super Saiya-jin 2 with power boost against Beerus)
14 - Ultimate Gohan
15 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
16 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
17 - Super Buu
18 - Kid Buu
19 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
20 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
21 - Evil Buu
22 - Fat Majin Buu
23 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
24 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
25 - Super Saiya-jin 2 teen Gohan
26 - Super Saiya-jin 2 adult Gohan
27 - Cell (Perfect, after explosion)
28 - Dabura
29 - Strongest Kaioshin
30 - Dai Kaioshin
31 - Kibitoshin
32 - Female Kaioshin
33 - Moustached Kaioshin
34 - Kaioshin
35 - Cell (Perfect, using all of his power)
36 - Cell (Perfect)
37 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
38 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power teen Gohan
39 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Mirai no Trunks
40 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Goku
41 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
42 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Goku
43 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Mirai no Trunks
44 - Piccolo
45 - Cell (second stage)
46 - Cell (first stage after absorbing tens of thousands of humans)
47 - #16
48 - Piccolo (after fusing with Kami)
49 - #17
50 - #18
51 - Cell Juniors
52 - Cell (first stage when he first appears)
53 - #17 (future version)
54 - #18 (future version)
55 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
56 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against #19)
57 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Mirai no Trunks)
58 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks
59 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
60 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Gohan
61 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
62 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
63 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Freeza)
64 - Freeza (against Mirai no Trunks)
65 - Freeza (using 100% of his power)
The way anyone approaches their own lists differs, but what matters is that at the end we all have a better idea on where each warrior introduced in DBSuper/BoG/Fukkatsu no F stands by adding them to the Majin Buu arc levels of power.
I've deliberately kept off a few warriors or some of their stages from potentially canon Movies, and obviously non-canon warriors, like Super Saiya-jin Gogeta, Brolly, #13, Cooler, Super Saiya-jin Bardock, Janenba or Hatchiyakku).
Not going to get into the gaps between each warrior either, except for a few exceptions not present in the list itself: Base Vegitto is about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Whis is about 1,5 of Beerus, Piccolo is just slightly stronger than semi-perfect Cell, adult Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan is just slightly stronger than Dabura, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta with his rage boost against Beerus is slightly below the two strongest versions of Super Buu but still far below Super Vegitto, and any seen or hypothetical form of Super Vegitto is far below Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and Golden Freeza, and all of these are just a little over a half of the strength of Beerus, hence about one third of Whis'.
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I meant to comment on the episode right after it ended running, but was too tired.
Everybody already pointed out the main aspects we can extract from this episode, so I'm not going to do it.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Not overly enjoying how Super's trying to over dramatize everything. Bluma being slapped and Vegeta's reaction were better when it was like a kneejerk reaction from Beerus and an instant snapping on Vegeta's part. Likewise, Super Saiyan God and the ritual being treated as a really big deal with an overly "holy" power up scene flies in the face of everything about it being appearing exaggerated and underwhelming as Toriyama intended. Not saying I hate these changes, but it's disappointing when BOG just hit the points so much better.
"Super Saiyan" Videl is a thing now too...I don't really have an opinion on that.
I agree, but I think the fact that they're stretching certain specific events which we've seen in BoG (and some others which we haven't and were added just for the same purpose) is because in a TV series of episodes they're deliberately making everything last longer in order to fill the episode(s); I'm not referring to filler material, which was used and overused in DBZ, I'm just saying that most of the stuff that happened in BoG in one minute or around that takes half an episode in DBSuper, in some cases.
I'm not criticizing that or this episode in particular, far from it, I'm just pointing out that we had an entire episode dedicated to both "versions" of the ritual (the failed one and the Videl one). That's about twenty minutes of covering something which took about five in the movie's version of events.
I've got to admit that in this particular case - and in some others it's the other way around - I preferred BoG's version of the ritual than DBSuper's. In the episode, everybody holds hands just the same, but they "channel" it to Goku instead of having him hold hands with the others just the same. Besides, it's like Goku stands there for two or three minutes waiting for something to happen (as in, "nope, still can't feel s***, gotta wait for another two minutes standing still to drag out the episode). I didn't appreciate the fact that the first "signs" that the ritual was going to be successful and actually produce the intended results, or any results whatsoever, came from Videl.
There's something wrong with the pacing in the episodes of DBSuper, and you realize this especially when it comes to see the series' version of the exact same events seen in BoG; I'm not entirely sure what it is, but it probably or most likely just has to do directly with the fact that they're stretching out things so much both to fill and pack the episodes some more and to make it so that the timing is just right for the best scene from each episode is ultimately seen at its very end.
Once again, they also stretched it deliberately so that the climax of the events depicted in the episode is reached exactly as it's being cut: Goku's ultimate and final appearance as a Super Saiya-jin God.
The best single scene from the episode was - again - one of the scenes we saw in the previous' episode preview, which was Goku slowly turning his head as a SSJG in that badass manner. Now THAT came close to some of the best stuff in DBZ, and that's saying a lot.
Also, Videl can't turn Super Saiya-jin, no matter what the effects of the ritual and/or the lightning may be and regardless of the fact her eyes are already blue. In order to be a Super Saiya-jin, you've gotta be a SAIYA-JIN first. :P
Saiyan007 wrote:
That transformation was the best transformation in the History of DB
That was sick :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: The opera music and chanting made it even better :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
That's pushing it a little bit. You can't compare whatever they come up with in DBSuper with some of the best transformation moments in DBZ, which in turn comprised SOME of the greatest moments from the entire series back in the 80's and 90's. The seriousness/desperation/drama present in, just for example's sake, Goku's first transformation into Super Saiya-jin on Namek is a billion times superior to Goku's transformation into Super Saiya-jin God, regardless of whether you're talking about BoG's version of it or DBSuper's. I pointed this out before, but the original, Shunsuke Kikuchi background music for DB and DBZ was actually one of the essential parts in what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ so fantastic. In the case of the very first time we see a Super Saiya-jin, although the piece of music they chose had been used since the Saiya-jin arc, it's like it was chosen specifically for that scene, as it fits it perfectly in terms of drama.
On another note, the fact that this time around, and as opposed to BoG, neither Bulma nor anyone else mentions Tarble when thinking about an additional Saiya-jin doesn't mean he's been "erased" from "canonness"; until further notice, nothing in the 2008 Special makes it impossible for it to have happened or for Tarble to exist, although, as I expected, in DBSuper they chose not to pick up on him as a character because they saw him lacking the potential to be an interesting character and someone who should be (re)introduced in the series. Basically, and to summarize, Tarble and the 2008 Special still exist, or CAN exist, but they're deliberately ignoring it when it comes to DBSuper.
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Blade wrote:
3) Was Videl a Super Saiyan, or was she merely reflecting the aura of others? It's interesting to note that her eyes don't change. Also - if Videl was a Super Saiyan during this ritual imply that Pan was indeed a Super Saiyan baby?
She wasn't a Super Saiya-jin. In order to be a Super SAIYA-JIN, you've got to be a SAIYA-JIN, or at least a half-human, half-Saiya-jin hybrid first of all.
Chuquita wrote:
ShinGaijin wrote:
You can watch the whole scene here guys :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtcSjbzUcaM
God, it was...wow..fantastic, really.So much emotion.
That snow! :3
I really liked seeing that snow, and the thunderstorm. Non-sunny-weather is so rare in Dragon Ball because most of the series takes place in May.
I kind of liked that as a change/addition to the ritual when compared to BoG's version of the ritual's effects on the environment. I guess the ritual is so powerful that, just like so many power-ups throughout DBZ, produce violent and absolutely unexpected effects in nature, at least in the surrounding area. It doesn't hold any particular specific meaning to me, though, it doesn't really hint at anything specifically, it's just another instance of an extreme power-up resulting in extreme phenomenons in the environment. Nothing new there, except for the fact that we saw rain, snow and sun in a sequence in a matter of a few seconds.
ANOTHER event in which I preferred BoG's version when compared to DBSuper's is the discovery by Gohan and everyone else that Videl is pregnant. It was almost perfect in BoG, in DBSuper it was downplayed a lot, it made it seem it wasn't that big a deal.
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garfield15 wrote:
I'm slightly disappointed nobody pointed out the "Gomen" moment. That was hysterical
Yeah, as I was watching it I kind of smiled at that. Name puns for specific races of groups of warriors in the Dragonball franchise is one of the most well-known characteristics of the series, and one could argue that it also applies to Goku's family: Goku could be seen as a shorter version of "Jigoku" (Hell), Gohan also means "food" or, better put, "meal", or "meal time", "Goten", as far as I know, refers to/is connected to "Heaven", and "gomen" means "sorry", so if they really went for Gomen as the name for Gohan and Videl's daughter, which they won't, then all, or almost all of the names in the family would have their own double meaning or at least hint at something, although, unlike in the case of all the others puns for different races and groups of warriors in the franchise, this sequence wouldn't really follow a solid logic.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
I'm agreeing with VintageSaiyan here, but I'm not pointing it out to be mean or anything. I just want you to know that.
I appreciate the long posts, but the way they're presented (when of what seems to be your average length so far) can be extremely overwhelming. I'm on a 42 inch monitor, if I remember correctly, and also have the screen set at the max resolution. Yet, two of your "paragraphs" still take up 90% of the screen, so I can just imagine what they look like to people with smaller monitors. I'm not asking you to stop writing en masse, but just break it up abit. :lol:
Like I said, I'm gradually adapting my writing style, or at least the way I present it, as I receive the critics. I won't diminish the amount of stuff that I write, nor the way I go in-depth into any details, though, but I'll try to make everything more "readable" and pleasant to the eye. I know I write huge amounts of text, I know I repeat myself over and over when expressing the same exact thoughts on many issues, and I know I typically address numerous different topics within the same post, sometimes diverting a little bit from the main point being discussed by others in the thread; I also know that everybody has obviously identified all of these traits I have when I post, as I display them almost every single time, but I'm also somewhat reassured by the fact that at least other fans do display at least the intention to read my posts, if not in their entirety, at least partially, which is important to me and perhaps the main reason why I tend to write and repeat myself so much.
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JoeCapricorn wrote:
Power level speculation on Pan.
I think she might be the youngest Super Saiyan in the series. It even seemed to cause Videl to turn blonde (although that was also partially because of the vast amount of golden glow going on), but the initial energy burst emerged from her womb. That spark came from Pan. Which means she could have become a Super Saiyan before even being born.
The question is, if the dialog mentions five Super Saiyans as being needed for a Super Saiyan God. It could also be possible that being surrounded by other Super Saiyans channeling their ki into Goku would have briefly transformed Pan. Of course, we won't know for sure, since there isn't any ultrasound showing us an embryonic Super Saiyan... but here is my shot in the dark: Pan is either born as a Super Saiyan, or undergoes the transformation at a very young age (younger than Goten).
The ritual calls for 5 Saiya-jin, not 5 SUPER Saiya-jin. Videl doesn't turn Super Saiya-jin, you need to be a SAIYA-JIN, or at leas a half-human, half-Saiya-jin hybrid to do that. And I wouldn't count on Pan being a Super Saiya-jin before being even born. She might have the potential to become one even at a young age after she's born, but in order to transform into a Super Saiya-jin you need to possess a lot of power, sapience, training and martial arts experience, I don't see an unborn fetus going Super Saiya-jin, that's just too far-fetched a scenario to me.
I attribute Videl's golden hair to the amount of lighting - especially golden one - going on at the time, to which we can add her natural blue eyes; all put together makes it feel, or rather put, seem that Videl has turned into a Super Saiya-jin, but that's just absolutely impossible.
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Alruneia wrote:
I can't believe how long that ritual took; half an episode of transformation! But I did really enjoy it. :clap:
I wonder, since everyone else was, if Pan was a Super Saiyan. So she already has the ability to transform. Youngest Super Saiyan ever! :P (Hoping for a similar story with Bulla sometime later in Super, it'd be a good way for Vegeta to ascend)
All in all this episode was very enjoyable. I could see myself rewatch it plenty of times.
Why would she be a Super Saiya-jin? She's a fetus. Yeah, she's a Saiya-jin (a half-breed), so she technically has the potential to become a Super Saiya-jin even at a very young age after she's born, given the proper circumstances, training, martial arts experience, etc., just like the others, but I just don't see a fetus, who has none of these traits nor even conscience or sapience, becoming a Super Saiya-jin.
It seems that a lot of fans are making some sort of connection between the fact that Videl's hair seems golden during the ritual and the fact that Pan, who's inside her, is a Saiya-jin, but there's no logical link there. Videl can't be a Super Saiya-jin because she's not even a SAIYA-JIN to begin with, and as far as Pan goes, I've already said what I had to say on the issue.
Videl LOOKS like a Super Saiya-jin because of all the golden lightning going on at the time of the ritual and because of her own natural blue eyes, that's it.
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MCDaveG wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
I'm agreeing with VintageSaiyan here, but I'm not pointing it out to be mean or anything. I just want you to know that.
I appreciate the long posts, but the way they're presented (when of what seems to be your average length so far) can be extremely overwhelming. I'm on a 42 inch monitor, if I remember correctly, and also have the screen set at the max resolution. Yet, two of your "paragraphs" still take up 90% of the screen, so I can just imagine what they look like to people with smaller monitors. I'm not asking you to stop writing en masse, but just break it up abit. :lol:
Like I said, I'm gradually adapting my writing style, or at least the way I present it, as I receive the critics. I won't diminish the amount of stuff that I write, nor the way I go in-depth into any details, though, but I'll try to make everything more "readable" and pleasant to the eye. I know I write huge amounts of text, I know I repeat myself over and over when expressing the same exact thoughts on many issues, and I know I typically address numerous different topics within the same post, sometimes diverting a little bit from the main point being discussed by others in the thread; I also know that everybody has obviously identified all of these traits I have when I post, as I display them almost every single time, but I'm also somewhat reassured by the fact that at least other fans do display at least the intention to read my posts, if not in their entirety, at least partially, which is important to me and perhaps the main reason why I tend to write and repeat myself so much.
I had this issue as well, as a fellow non-native. It's just about finding the fitting words to describe somthing without dancing around the hot pot and adress issues that matter.
Also, I think that writing huge wall of text in the internet is waste of time, as there are more important things to do with the time in my life, so I don't even read huge walls of text, so yeah :)
Thumbs up MaGyunia and good luck with your progress.
Yeah, I'll be more careful in the future. The amount of thoughts won't change if I continue coming up with huge texts addressing a number of different issues within the same post, but whenever that happens from now on I'll try to at least make the entire huge thing more readable and pleasant to the eye.
At least the critics have proven to me that fans do intend to read everything or least part of what I write, despite my numerous repetitions on many issues, which reassures me.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
Videl was a not a ssj here. Not even fetus Pan.
They were going for yellow light color for the others, so give another color to Videl would be stupid. The same reason why they used SSJ Gohan, and not Mystic Gohan.
Animations purposes, that it.
If anything just shows that Pan has the potential to turn ssj too. You don't need 6 super saiyans to turn God, just 6 pure saiyans.
Exactly. First of all, some fans seem to believe that the ritual calls for 6 Super Saiya-jin, when we've known for over two years that what we need is 6 Saiya-jin. It just so happens that all Saiya-jin who are part of the ritual in BoG and in DBSuper are Super Saiya-jin. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten are freakish occurrences in the Saiya-jin race due to the constant fighting against insanely powerful villains throughout DBZ, before any of them turned Super Saiya-jin legend had it that one appeared only once every thousand years. The Saiya-jin who performed the ritual in Planet Vegeta weren't Super Saiya-jin, they were just regular Saiya-jin.
garfield15 wrote:
I don't think Videl was actually turning Super Saiyan since her eyes didn't change color, nor did her hair get spiky. It was just a cool visual effect to say to the audience "Hey kids, there's a Saiyan in that belly and it's helping mom out"
It's getting tiring to repeat the same thing over and over. Videl CANNOT turn Super SAIYA-JIN because she's not a SAIYA-JIN to start with. Regarding Pan inside her, despite the fact that she might have the potential to turn Super Saiya-jin at an early age just like Trunks or Goten, she most certainly didn't turn Super Saiya-jin inside Videl. She's a FETUS. I don't really see a fetus without any knowledge, sapience or martial arts training achieving a Super Saiya-jin transformation just because it's got Saiya-jin blood. She's not even a full-fledged, completed being yet.
There are certain requirements to turn into a Super Saiya-jin, you know? It took warriors like Goku and Vegeta, who have been deemed "fighting geniuses" on numerous occasions by each other and others as well in DBZ, extreme training, power increase, time, the right circumstances and explosions of anger as full-fledged adults to reach the legendary transformation. Sorry, but a f****** FETUS can't do it.
Videl in there works just as in BoG - whose version of the ritual + transformation I prefer over DBSuper's -, as a mere carrier for Pan, who IS indeed a Saiya-jin, and that's what the ritual calls for.
The fact that Videl gains, or appears to gain golden hair has to do with the extreme effects the transformation/power-up have in the natural environment, including those standing nearby (especially her, as she's being part of the ritual itself). It could be argued that part of the immense Super Saiya-jin energy being passed on in there during the ritual somehow affected Videl, but she didn't turn Super Saiya-jin, nor can she, nor will she have heightened powers after the ritual, nor did Pan transform either.
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DragonHermit wrote:
Wth is this I hear about Videl going SSJ? She did not go Super Saiyan. Her hair just looked like that because of the Golden Ki surrounding the group. She and Trunks also naturally have lighter eyes unlike Goku and Vegeta.
Some fans are indeed making that claim, claiming the fact that Pan is a Saiya-jin was the catalyst, going as far as to say that Pan turned SUPER Saiya-jin as a fetus. I've addressed that before in this and in another thread and I'll do so again a bit later on.
The fact that Videl SEEMS like a Super Saiya-jin can be explained either by the extreme effects such a transformation/power-up has on the natural environment, or by the fact that there's quite a massive amount of Super Saiya-jin golden energy going around at that time during the ritual, which adds to her own natural blue eyes.
She did NOT turn Super Saiya-jin, simply because she's not a SAIYA-JIN.
Chiki wrote:
You guys are funny. "OMG HOW CAN VIDEL TURN INTO A SUPER SAIYAN WHEN SHES A HUMAN BEING?!"
Let's start this from the basics.
What makes Saiyans go Super Saiyan? They have the power of a Saiyan, so they can go Super Saiyan.
If Videl somehow gains access to a Saiyan's power, I don't see why she can't go Super Saiyan.
Simply being a Saiya-jin doesn't mean you can automatically go Super Saiya-jin. Before any living Saiya-jin could do it by the Jinzouningen arc, it was quite a legendary, massive feat.
There are quite a few requirements to undergo a Super Saiya-jin transformation: quite a lot of power, martial arts training, the right circumstances (an explosion of anger or frustration, etc.) and some special gift or potential, traits who Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten all possess and develop. I can definitely see Pan becoming a Super Saiya-jin at an early age like Trunks and Goten, but at this point she's not even a complete being yet, she's got no sapience, no knowledge, no training, no consciousness, there's absolutely no way she can undergo a legendary transformation which took Goku and Vegeta desperate circumstances and an immense amount of work to achieve while she's a fucking FETUS, sorry.
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Again, the ritual calls for 6 Saiya-jin, not necessarily 6 SUPER Saiya-jin. The ritual would work even if it was performed by Raditz, Bardock, King Vegeta, Tullece, Tarble and Nappa (if they were "pure-hearted", that is). There's no need to be a Super Saiya-jin in order to be a successful part of the ritual.
There seems to be some confusion among a few fans about what the ritual calls for. It calls for Saiya-jins. Pan is a Saiya-jin. It doesn't call necessarily for Super Saiya-jins. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten just "happen" to, all of them, be able to go (several stages of) Super Saiya-jin.
I've explained in a more in-depth manner in my last two posts in this thread why neither Videl nor Pan went Super Saiya-jin. Videl is a mere carrier for a fetus with Saiya-jin blood (a soon-to-be Saiya-jin), just like she was in BoG. Pan is a fetus, she's not even a complete being yet, she lacks the power, the potential, the training, the experience, the sapience, the knowledge and the consciousness to even open her fucking eyes, let alone undergo a legendary transformation that took Goku and Vegeta years of training under desperate circumstances to achieve.
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Hey guys and everyone. This might not be the best place to talk about this, which definitely falls out of any Dragonball-related stuff, but I found nowhere else or any other way to convey the message to as many of you as possible.
Some of you might have noticed that I haven't posted here for a month and a half. I had an intellectual collapse along with several simultaneous other issues on a number of different aspects of my life. The intellectual collapse could be considered the final culmination of a process of all kinds of not-so-healthy obsessions, which, for example, resulted in the fact that, during the time I posted here, between July and September, I wrote huge walls of text, while constantly repeating myself so that nobody would forget the main points I was trying to get at - too many at the same time, too. One small part of an enormous, gigantic wave of intellectual insanity came from the fact that I had such an active part in the numerous discussions in the threads here, which I've kept, all of them, in a document for posterity, but that's really not even 1% of the reason.
For one, I'll from now on try to be less repetitive of my ideas and concepts when addressing all the issues I want to discuss about Dragonball, DBSuper in general and each episode or each specific theme, so that I may became more "readable" (not self-criticizing my way or writing or my carefully-thought and valuable ideas and concepts, just the huge amounts of texts, the excessive themes approached in the same, or in a few posts, and especially the degree to which I constantly repeat the points I really, really wanted and still want to put across.
Finally, and most importantly, I've deeply missed interacting with you in this forum, as I see it as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom. I obviously continued watching every episode as it aired in Japan in real time since I decided to quit posting, but I very deliberately chose not to continue to discuss anything with you here, for the intellectual strain it, among many other issues, produced.
The fact that I view my participation in the discussions with you, just as we did thoroughly between July and September, as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom instead of just watching everything and keeping up-to-date with all the news and leaked info, etc., led me to reverse my decision and now I'm ready to come back, although, like I said before, I'll try to adjust the levels of repetition and the amount of text and themes I'll be addressing within the same post.
I hope most of you recall the numerous, thorough discussions we had, the way I wrote and participated, all my points and concepts (if you don't, that's fine, but I know most of you do, at least a big percentage and chunk of it, and besides I have the entire thing documented with me) and I also hope that you value the fact that I missed this to the point of "giving up" on fighting it and finally decide to come back with this announcement and subsequent return to regular and normal participation in the discussions.
Watching it just doesn't quite do it, I need to feel a part of the fandom watching it and discussing it at the same exact time I do, I need to feel that I'm part of the same world we all belong to. I can assure I had a tough time after I deliberately decided to quit posting altogether. I can't do it anymore. I'm back. I missed this, and I missed you guys.
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I've just posted an announcement in the official main thread for DBSuper detailing my active comeback to the forum, and I'll right away start to make up for the time lost in my discussions and interactions with you.
I won't be able to go in-depth into everything like I did when I was fully active between July and September, but at least the main elements will be here.
I remember we were making an exercise of estimating how long the Beerus arc within DBSuper would last, and we concluded it would be over by the 10th or 12th episode. Not only did it stretch for two additional episodes, which isn't that much compared to our estimates, the entire fight between Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Hakaishin Beerus stretched out for five entire episodes, which I think was overdoing it, and you could tell that in one or two all you had was the typical power-up/screaming/mirror-image of the duo fighting comprising basically almost the entirety of the episodes.
Now that we're done with it, and as we estimated, we'll get two or three smoother episodes to make the transition to the new arc, which will be comprised most likely of the same number of episodes, although retelling Fukkatsu no F, in my opinion and that of many others, I think, deserves, needs and requires quite a lot of additional material when compared to the retelling of BoG, which was done pretty much in almost the same exact circumstances when compared to the movie, in virtually all aspects (even particular sentences, events, exchanges, words, transformations, events, blows during the fights, etc.).
I've said this before and I'd like to repeat that I, among many others, want to see a number of previously off-screen events which happened at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events, namely Vegeta reaching Super Saiya-jin God himself, Vegeta and Goku deciding to go to Beerus' place to become Whis' students and trainees, Freeza training after getting resurrected, etc. When the names of the episodes until the 18th first came out I was happy to figure out that these events will obviously all be addressed properly, and given the proper screen time in DBSuper's incoming episodes, giving me quite a nice degree of satisfaction.
Going back to Vegeta and the conclusion of the SSJG vs Beerus fight we witnessed in last week's episode, the fact that is the one who ultimately catches Goku and follows the battle he thought Goku earned closely, without moving all throughout the entire thing just goes to display and illustrate, once again, the fact that by this time he has a degree of respect towards Goku that goes beyond even the fact that he values him as a fighting rival, a fellow Saiya-jin and, to some degree, a friend. But especially, fighting respect. He showed, and will continue to show, the readiness to let Kakarotto be the one to fight the common enemy and stand on the sidelines for a while; it's like a fighting code of honor, which doesn't really belong to pure, proud Saiya-jins only. The way their relationship evolved is quite a feat and it deserves everyone's applause. They did it just the right way, and the scene in which he catches him has quite a humongous amount of significance for anybody who knows DBZ, Vegeta and Goku. The way it culminated with him hastily moving everyone aside to catch him after that insanely powerful battle just demonstrates, illustrates and portrays even further, and to a greater degree and more perfectly, just the right, exact dynamics present in the way Vegeta interacts with Goku and the degree of fighting respect he has for him - which goes both ways, and the other way around, obviously - at this point. It might have surpassed the famous scene of Vegeta finally admitting Goku is number 1 and letting him have his deserved fight against Kid Buu, which is no small feat, as we're talking one of the numerous fantastic moments in DBZ.
The interaction between Vegeta and Goku in terms of their relationship might be becoming more complex, but also more understandable and starting to make a lot more sense if we look back at the way they've always interacted throughout the numerous changes Vegeta's character and intentions go through as the arcs progressed in DBZ.
Also enjoyed, as a Vegeta fan, the fact that he's not only bent again on becoming number 1 in the Universe, he used "omae" to refer to Kakarotto instead of "kisama", he stated he'll attain (and surpass) Super Saiya-jin God by himself. Overcoming everyone in the Universe pretty much means that, yeah, you've got to surpass Super Saiya-jin God Kakarotto and Hakaishin Birusu (not to mention Whis).
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Puto wrote:
No, please DON'T show Vegeta reaching SSGSS on his own. That would completely ruin the surprise of seeing him use it against Freeza.
I wasn't talking about Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, I was talking about Super Saiya-jin God. The way it apparently works, after you undergo the ritual to become a Super Saiya-jin God, if you're gifted enough - and both Goku and Vegeta are - you're able to achieve a state in which you've absorbed all the power and abilities of the SSJG stage even in your base form, or in any other form; only after that, for some reason, did Goku and Vegeta develop the SSJGSSJ stage.
What I said I would like to watch is Vegeta's own process of becoming Super Saiya-jin God just like Goku did, so he can catch up with him and then go through the next steps seen in Fukkatsu no F. However, the only questions that remains is: will Vegeta somehow be able to turn Super Saiya-jin God by himself, or will he need, like Goku did, the help of the other Saiya-jins and go through the ritual? Not sure how they'll handle that, or even if he's going to go SSJG before attaining the Saiya-jin Beyond God stage and then the SSJGSSJG stage, but I assume he has to, as, until further notice, these are the logical steps and the sequence both he and Goku will follow/have followed.
That's actually another thing I'd like to see, you can add it to the off-screen stuff in between BoG and Fukkatsu no F: Goku and Vegeta, for some reason, deciding to develop a new stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. It's rather obvious in Fukkatsu no F that that's not the first time each of them transform into that particular stage.
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Sorry to deviate a little bit from the issues you were discussing just now, but is it me or in the last few days they made it virtually impossible to get a Fuji TV stream? All of the channels I've used, and they're numerous, have become offline, all of them, and the last time I checked, one week ago for the 14th episode, they were all fully online, working and functional. Any info on this? Are they hunting down streaming websites to tighten the grip and make it harder for fans to watch the episodes in real time?
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All throughout the retelling of the BoG events within the Beerus arc in DBSuper we've seen them keeping most of the stuff exactly the same and intact, while making some adaptations and additions here and there, and one instance of the latter is the fact that this time Beerus and Whis just went away right after the battle was over, as opposed to the movies' version, in which they hang for a while and Whis even proposes to Goku that he could be the next Hakaishin after Beerus dies, and Beerus apologizes to Bulma, etc. The fact Beerus this time didn't mention Whis is, more than his attendant, his master and the actual strongest being there is in the Universe, which him being the second one, in DBSuper, as opposed to the movie, is not proof that they changed anything. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. We'll get to see Whis training both Goku and Vegeta pretty soon in the incoming episodes, and I'm sure that at some point it'll be stated by someone that Whis is actually stronger than Beerus and his previous martial arts teacher, making him the most powerful entity there is, at least in the 7th Universe.
It all has to do with the pacing DBSuper is following, which seemed off-balance in some points, whereas in the movies you had a perfectly thought and conceived stream of events carefully planned to fit within the time restraints of theatrical feature.
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Not really sure why they're keeping the manga and the TV series versions so utterly different when it comes to the issue of Champa's introduction and actions, but I maintain my bet that Champa will only be introduced after the Freeza arc in DBSuper, in the lead-up and/or during the 6th Universe arc, since it's pretty obvious he's connected to it (either its Hakaishin, or past runner to the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a race which he lost to Beerus, thus explaining his bitterness towards the latter), so it would make perfect sense.
Would be cool, though, if we were being introduced to him just like we were to the Beerus + Whis duo in the first two or three episodes of DBSuper (ignoring BoG) as a lead-up to his full appearance as whatever he's going to be within the Dragonball universe.
irreality wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I'm back. I missed this, and I missed you guys.
Welcome Back!
I knew you were going to be one of the users among many others who would take the time to make a post welcoming me back. :wave: Thank you.
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Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Hey guys and everyone. This might not be the best place to talk about this, which definitely falls out of any Dragonball-related stuff, but I found nowhere else or any other way to convey the message to as many of you as possible.
Some of you might have noticed that I haven't posted here for a month and a half. I had an intellectual collapse along with several simultaneous other issues on a number of different aspects of my life. The intellectual collapse could be considered the final culmination of a process of all kinds of not-so-healthy obsessions, which, for example, resulted in the fact that, during the time I posted here, between July and September, I wrote huge walls of text, while constantly repeating myself so that nobody would forget the main points I was trying to get at - too many at the same time, too. One small part of an enormous, gigantic wave of intellectual insanity came from the fact that I had such an active part in the numerous discussions in the threads here, which I've kept, all of them, in a document for posterity, but that's really not even 1% of the reason.
For one, I'll from now on try to be less repetitive of my ideas and concepts when addressing all the issues I want to discuss about Dragonball, DBSuper in general and each episode or each specific theme, so that I may became more "readable" (not self-criticizing my way or writing or my carefully-thought and valuable ideas and concepts, just the huge amounts of texts, the excessive themes approached in the same, or in a few posts, and especially the degree to which I constantly repeat the points I really, really wanted and still want to put across.
Finally, and most importantly, I've deeply missed interacting with you in this forum, as I see it as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom. I obviously continued watching every episode as it aired in Japan in real time since I decided to quit posting, but I very deliberately chose not to continue to discuss anything with you here, for the intellectual strain it, among many other issues, produced.
The fact that I view my participation in the discussions with you, just as we did thoroughly between July and September, as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom instead of just watching everything and keeping up-to-date with all the news and leaked info, etc., led me to reverse my decision and now I'm ready to come back, although, like I said before, I'll try to adjust the levels of repetition and the amount of text and themes I'll be addressing within the same post.
I hope most of you recall the numerous, thorough discussions we had, the way I wrote and participated, all my points and concepts (if you don't, that's fine, but I know most of you do, at least a big percentage and chunk of it, and besides I have the entire thing documented with me) and I also hope that you value the fact that I missed this to the point of "giving up" on fighting it and finally decide to come back with this announcement and subsequent return to regular and normal participation in the discussions.
Watching it just doesn't quite do it, I need to feel a part of the fandom watching it and discussing it at the same exact time I do, I need to feel that I'm part of the same world we all belong to. I can assure I had a tough time after I deliberately decided to quit posting altogether. I can't do it anymore. I'm back. I missed this, and I missed you guys.
I really missed reading this longs texts :) , i am not complaining.
You mean from me, or any long texts from whoever? Do you mean to tell me I am or was actually the only one to write those huge texts discussing so many different issues within the same post and repeating myself over and over? :lol:
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
You mean from me, or any long texts from whoever? Do you mean to tell me I am or was actually the only one to write those huge texts discussing so many different issues within the same post and repeating myself over and over? :lol:
There are at least two other users who type as much as you. lol.
Welcome back, btw. =D
I highly doubt that. Did you follow closely all my posts from July to September? Most of them were called "essays" or "huge walls of text", gigantic, etc., full of repetitions. Lots of complaints were made about the way I wrote or the fact that I addressed too many subjects in the same post, etc.
But if you're talking only about quantity, regardless of quality or other aspects and factors, then yeah, it might be possible.
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Doctor. wrote:
So it seems like the new tier list is something like Vados >/= Whis > Beerus > Champa > Golden Freeza > Goku > Vegeta.
Vados: 15,5
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Champa: 9
Golden Freeza: 8
SSB Goku: 7,5
SSB Vegeta: 7,2
I love making lists but I don't like to put it that way in terms of figures and numbers.
But yeah, a consensus has already been pretty much made, with a few exceptions here and there, but not regarding the top 5 or top 10 warriors.
I'll keep this one short, though, up to the top 25, and I'm not going to include the movies, of course, otherwise the likes of Gogeta and Janenba would be there:
1 - Vados/Whis
2 - Whis/Vados
3 - Beerus
4 - Champa
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
7 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
8 - Saiya-jin Beyond God Goku
9 - Saiya-jin Beyond God Vegeta
10 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin Goku with power of all others at first attempt of the ritual
12 - Super Vegitto
13 - Base Vegitto
14 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta with rage boost after Beerus hit Bulma
15 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan dominant)
16 - Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks dominant)
17 - Ultimate Gohan (at his peak, it's still debatable whether he's actually permanently as strong as he was when he showed up to thrash Super Buu after the unlocking ritual by Rou Dai Kaioshin, at some points his power might have dropped considerably to the point of being lowered in the ranking significantly and being overcome by at least three or four warriors at different times)
18 - Super Buu (Piccolo dominant)
19 - Super Buu
20 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
21 - Kid Buu
22 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
23 - Evil Buu
24 - Fat Majin Buu
25 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku/Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
A shame to keep the list so short. Cell, the Kaioshin, Dabura, teen Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, #17, #18, Piccolo, etc. get left out.
Seems interesting that ALL of the top 10, and even over that, are all characters and warriors presented and introduced to us in the most recent stuff (BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper), but that's only logical. If they were going to make new TV series and movies, and be serious about the plot and the fighting, power levels and serious menaces to Earth and the Universe with SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, Majin Buu and the others around, then they had to come up with even more powerful entities/antagonists (not really villains) and new stages and transformations for Goku and Vegeta to be able to keep up with them. That's the whole way DBZ worked from beginning to end: warriors keeping surpassing themselves and others until someone else displays a much greater level of power, and then that one gets overcome by a set of new warriors through new transformations, and then another, even bigger threat comes along and they need to overcome their limits yet again. The enormity of what happened throughout all of the arcs of DBZ is so great that by its last saga they were fighting one of the most powerful beings there ever was - Majin/Kid Buu -, so the next logical step would be to introduce some sort of deity whose power can't even be sensed and is in a "different dimension altogether", and, along with a few comic elements here and there, thus was Beerus created. In order to keep up with him and Whis, Goku - and Vegeta - needed to attain EVEN much stronger transformations than the insanely powerful ones before, which already had put them in the top 10 of most powerful warriors there ever were; now, Vados and Champa have a level of power comparable or even equal to the Beerus + Whis duo, and Goku and Vegeta got/will get to a stage where they can keep up with them by achieving something that goes even BEYOND Super Saiya-jin God (Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). Freeza is a freakish event, a prodigy among a race of power abnormalities, all it took to get him from a Freeza arc level of power to a degree of strength beyond what we see in a number of warriors by the Majin Buu arc is four months of training, but we can easily accept that.
This particular, restricted group of warriors is likely to never, ever be surpassed again. Goku (and Vegeta) actually got to the point where they're on par with the strongest gods/warriors there ever were in the entire history of the universe(s), far above the likes of any form of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, the Kaioshin, Piccolo, Cell, Freeza, etc.
Taking all of this into account, the likes of Ultimate Gohan, Majin Buu, Piccolo, #18, Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 2 or 3, Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2 are all but completely and absolutely outmatched, and rendered useless and obsolete fighting-wise. Not to mention the even weaker ones, those were brought to Fukkatsu no F just so that they could have their screen and fighting time, which I personally appreciate.
And again, Gohan has been completely and utterly replaced by Vegeta in terms of protagonism. We need to remember that he is or was supposed to be far beyond Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2 during the Majin Buu arc in his Ultimate form, but in the recent stuff they've thrown our way Gohan is being depicted as an I'm-always-skipping-training nerd who most likely can't even tap into the full extent of the power he displayed during the Majin Buu arc anymore by the time of BoG, Fukkastu no F or DBSuper. Vegeta, as a pure Saiya-jin, has been very deliberately chosen to be the only one among the team to be able to keep up with Goku, Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza, by taking the necessary steps to achieve the exact same stages Goku has, in the exact sequence, thus, automatically making Ultimate Gohan look like nothing in comparison; and they even made his degree of (co-)protagonism be matched by his level of power. Nevermind Yamcha, Tenshinhan or Krillin, nevermind even #18 or Piccolo or the Kaioshin, even Ultimate Gohan and fat Majin Buu are now far, far below the league in which Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Freeza, Goku and Vegeta play, to the point where any comparison is ludicrous. Make no mistake about it, Gohan will never cease to be an incredibly gifted and powerful warrior, but he'll never become relevant again in terms of power and protagonism, the way he was against Cell in the Cell Games or during the whole Majin Buu arc, and the sooner the Gohan hardcore fans accept this, the better for them.
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Doctor. wrote:
Bullza wrote:
I figured Champa would be between Freeza and Beerus. In the end either Goku or Vegeta (more likely Goku) will surpass and defeat him at which point he'll be ready to have his rematch with Beerus.
Yea, I figured that as well. But I thought that Vados would be between Beerus and Whis personally. Didn't expect her to be the strongest at all.
She could either be just as strong as Whis, slightly stronger than him, or even slightly weaker than him. Nevertheless, whatever the case actually is, she definitely seems to be above Beerus, which kind of pisses me off (well, even back when BoG came out I was a little pissed of when I learned that Whis is actually above Beerus, since he's earned his rightful place in my list of all-time favorite Dragonball characters).
We're not, and cannot be sure if Vados is stronger than Whis, she merely says she is, but Whis doesn't quite agree, and this is really all we have to base our estimates on, which isn't much; they could be just trash-talking each other. It's also funny and interesting that both brothers (Vados and Whis, Beerus and Champa) don't appear to get along too well. However, even if Vados turns out to be above Whis, which I doubt (I'd go for Whis still being stronger, or, even more likely, they're just completely matched), her student and Hakaishin, Champa, is below Whis', Beerus. We could go by that logic and postulate a scenario in which the Beerus + Whis duo is stronger than the Vados + Champa duo, with the attendants being both above the two Hakaishins, as in: Whis/Vados, Vados/Whis, Beerus, Champa. Then we get to yet another stage which is to try to figure out just where Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta fit it and compare to their power, but based on the fight we just witnessed in the recent DBSuper episodes between Beerus and SSJG Goku, I'd say they're pretty close to the two Hakaishin + attendant duos. And that's not counting the possibility of SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta working together, which is actually a scenario mentioned by Whis himself in Fukkatsu no F. Maybe, in theory (because it will never happen) SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta working and fighting together would take down Beerus, and thus automatically Champa, but how close would they come to Whis, and Vados, by the way? Would the same possibility of beating them apply? We'll probably never know. Would be cool to get some final, decisive, conclusive official information on power levels regarding all these new warriors and transformations/stages.
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Doctor. wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
In light of the new characters, I'll be updating my tiers.
Spoiler:View
You forgot Freeza in space.
We're not, and cannot be sure if Vados is stronger than Whis, she merely says she is, but Whis doesn't quite agree, and this is really all we have to base our estimates on, which isn't much; they could be just trash-talking each other.
Considering Vados actually trained Whis, I think it's heavily implied she's stronger.
Hmm, there's obviously no doubt that at one point she was stronger than Whis, but just because she trained him doesn't mean he hasn't gotten stronger than her. In fact, he even says she hasn't trained for quite a long while. Similarly, to much, much lower proportions, Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami, Kaiou-sama all train Goku and are stronger than him at one point and he surpasses all of them easily and quickly, to insane degrees, in fact. I know the example is far from being perfect and the same dynamics don't quite apply, but it's just to illustrate that just because you once trained a warrior it doesn't you're automatically forever stronger than them. We'll either have to wait for actual fights or official info, or we'll actually never know for sure just who is stronger.
I personally wouldn't mind too much if she was stronger than Whis, although I've grown fond of even the latter, as he's Beerus' faithful attendant. What I do mind is that not only Whis himself, but also Vados, are both stronger than Hakaishin Birusu. Now THAT pisses me off. The cat SHOULD be above anything and anyone, the strongest and most powerful entity there is and ever was, period. But that's just me.
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Bullza wrote:
On a side note it also doesn't surprise me that Vados is stronger than Whis. Her being weaker than Whis just because she's female seemed too predictable.
Well, we could also argue by logic (which, in this case, like in many others, may not apply at all) that if Beerus, Whis' trainee, is stronger than Champa, Vados' trainee, then Whis should, or could be stronger than Vados.
Not saying it's one way or the other, I made my point on that regard in my previous post. She could be slightly stronger than Whis, slightly weaker than him, or absolutely on par with him. What seems to be definitely factual is that both of them are above Beerus.
On a side note, it never even crossed my mind that she MUST be weaker than Whis just because she's female. Honestly. That was never a factor in the equation.
Bullza wrote:
If Vados is stronger than Whis I think shed be a good contender for the real main villain in the Universe 6 arc. I think I said this somewhere before but perhaps they could build up Champa as being the villain only for there to be a betrayal by Vados who turns out to be using him the whole time and the puppeteer behind the whole thing.
It'd also just be different to have a female villain for a change too. The last female character who was worth anything power wise was #18.
I think we shouldn't call them villains, at least not full-fledged villains. A villain is someone like the ones we had throughout the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, #17, #18, Cell, Kid Buu, insane genocidal psychopathic megalomaniac sadist maniacs. I always defended the view that even someone like Beerus, who's a Hakaishin and destroys more planets than he's supposed to at his whims, most likely doesn't share the same concept of good and evil as all others do, and the same applies to Champa, Whis and Vados. They're certainly not going to go around killing off entire races to get immortality (Vegeta, Freeza), conquering and enslaving an entire planet (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), annihilating and absorbing in a horrific way millions of human beings to attain the ultimate power (Cell) or rampaging through the entire Universe destroying everything and everyone in sight, in an out-of-control manner.
That's exactly why the concept of Beerus' personality, along with that of Whis, and most likely, to a somewhat lesser degree, Champa and Vados, was a fantastic addition to the franchise, we'd never really seen anything like that before. Not a villain, at most an antagonist. The term "villain" carries with it quite a lot of evil intentions and wrongdoing, genocides, mania, psychopathy, megalomania, slaughter, assassination, etc.
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The average Freeza soldier is probably within the power level Muten Roshi can handle, if they don't gang up on him at the same time. They did laugh in the Freeza saga on Namek when they measured the suppressed-Ki Namek-sei-jins at 1.000 each, but that might have been just because there were lots of them around, whereas there were only 3 Namek-sei-jins, making up a total of 3.000. I highly doubt the average Freeza soldier, whether on Namek or during his invasion of Earth in Fukkatsu no F, has a power of 1.000 or even close to that. They have proper defending and fighting armor and they're all apparently well-trained and able to fly, etc., but I'd say that one on one none of them would have a chance against Muten Roshi, regardless of whether he trained and got any stronger when compared to what he always was throughout the series.
Muten Roshi worked a lot for centuries to reach the level of power he has by the time we get introduced to him as Earth's strongest in DB, it would incredibly hard to believe, especially taking into account he's a mere human, that he underwent a major power-up after any supposed potential training. Besides, he's a martial arts expert, though not so much an expert in Ki manipulation, etc. The good old Muten Roshi we've always known throughout DB and DBZ would definitely be able to take on a bunch of Freeza soldiers easily, but if they ganged up on him he'd have trouble, as seen in Fukkatsu no F.
On another note, but still discussing Muten Roshi, I welcomed his comeback to the fighting front in the movie - and hopefully in the Freeza saga within DBSuper -, along with Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Krillin (all of them with huge differences in power scales, though) instead of the old routine of making him a comic character trying to do sexually abusive and pervert stuff, which isn't getting old now, it's gotten old even in the Majin Buu arc or even before that, just like Chi Chi's constant nagging did. Matching him to the average Freeza soldiers is the perfect opportunity for even Muten Roshi have a successful fight. His power has become obsolete as soon as the first half of DB was reached, and Tenshinhan's, Krillin's and Yamcha's also did by the Freeza saga, and even #18's and Piccolo's extreme level of power has been crushed by the top warriors by the Majin Buu arc, and now even Ultimate Gohan and Majin Buu, or even Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta or Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku or Gotenks are useless against the newest antagonists, stages and levels of power, but that shouldn't mean they shouldn't get their fighting time, display their techniques and have some proper screen time. The difference between them, and the one between so many warriors, whether good or evil, is insane, but it's not just about strength and power, it's about keeping them "alive" by giving them, including even Muten Roshi, some proper fighting time. None of the fundamental characters from DB and DBZ should be forgotten, and from time to time, regardless of their power when compared to the actual top warriors in the Universe at this point, they should get, and did get/are getting their moments to shine. I hope they don't screw that up in the Freeza arc in DBSuper when compared to the Fukkatsu no F. I'm quite hyped to see just how they'll approach the enormity of stuff that needs to be rethought in the form of a retelling of the movie's events, both what we saw on-screen and what happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
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The average Freeza soldier is probably within the power level Muten Roshi can handle, if they don't gang up on him at the same time. They did laugh in the Freeza saga on Namek when they measured the suppressed-Ki Namek-sei-jins at 1.000 each, but that might have been just because there were lots of them around, whereas there were only 3 Namek-sei-jins, making up a total of 3.000. I highly doubt the average Freeza soldier, whether on Namek or during his invasion of Earth in Fukkatsu no F, has a power of 1.000 or even close to that. They have proper defending and fighting armor and they're all apparently well-trained and able to fly, etc., but I'd say that one on one none of them would have a chance against Muten Roshi, regardless of whether he trained and got any stronger when compared to what he always was throughout the series.
Muten Roshi worked a lot for centuries to reach the level of power he has by the time we get introduced to him as Earth's strongest in DB, it would incredibly hard to believe, especially taking into account he's a mere human, that he underwent a major power-up after any supposed potential training. Besides, he's a martial arts expert, though not so much an expert in Ki manipulation, etc. The good old Muten Roshi we've always known throughout DB and DBZ would definitely be able to take on a bunch of Freeza soldiers easily, but if they ganged up on him he'd have trouble, as seen in Fukkatsu no F.
On another note, but still discussing Muten Roshi, I welcomed his comeback to the fighting front in the movie - and hopefully in the Freeza saga within DBSuper -, along with Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Krillin (all of them with huge differences in power scales, though) instead of the old routine of making him a comic character trying to do sexually abusive and pervert stuff, which isn't getting old now, it's gotten old even in the Majin Buu arc or even before that, just like Chi Chi's constant nagging did. Matching him to the average Freeza soldiers is the perfect opportunity for even Muten Roshi have a successful fight. His power has become obsolete as soon as the first half of DB was reached, and Tenshinhan's, Krillin's and Yamcha's also did by the Freeza saga, and even #18's and Piccolo's extreme level of power has been crushed by the top warriors by the Majin Buu arc, and now even Ultimate Gohan and Majin Buu, or even Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta or Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku or Gotenks are useless against the newest antagonists, stages and levels of power, but that shouldn't mean they shouldn't get their fighting time, display their techniques and have some proper screen time. The difference between them, and the one between so many warriors, whether good or evil, is insane, but it's not just about strength and power, it's about keeping them "alive" by giving them, including even Muten Roshi, some proper fighting time. None of the fundamental characters from DB and DBZ should be forgotten, and from time to time, regardless of their power when compared to the actual top warriors in the Universe at this point, they should get, and did get/are getting their moments to shine. I hope they don't screw that up in the Freeza arc in DBSuper when compared to the Fukkatsu no F. I'm quite hyped to see just how they'll approach the enormity of stuff that needs to be rethought in the form of a retelling of the movie's events, both what we saw on-screen and what happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
Noah wrote:
I have the feeling that they will let Vegeta defeat Freeza in the anime RoF Arc
Highly, highly doubt that. Not that I personally wouldn't want it to happen, as a hardcore Vegeta fan. Watching him beat the s*** out of Freeza after the humiliation he was subjected to was good enough, he basically won the fight and was about to finish Freeza off with his own hands in Fukkatsu no F, but taking into account the fact that Goku just has to be either the main hero or the guy who delivers the final blow regardless of anything else, just like what happened in the movie, I'd go for Goku being the one to finish Freeza just like in Fukkatsu no F. Don't get me wrong, that's not what I'd like, I'd like Vegeta to be the one to save the day without Goku's help whatsoever and become, at least temporarily, the main hero to get rid of the menace by killing them, but don't get your hopes too high on that. What they shouldn't screw up, though, was another one of the good things about the movie, which was Vegeta's flawless beating of Freeza, which has quite a lot of significance for a hardcore Vegeta fan, by getting rid of that; they did change a few things here and there in the Beerus arc when compared to BoG, but I hope that whatever changes or adaptations they make to the Freeza arc when compared to Fukkatsu no F isn't the fact that Vegeta doesn't get to beat the s*** out of Freeza. That just has to be there, just the way it happened in the movie (not saying it didn't have its flaws, though, many more than BoG, in fact).
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An entire episode dedicated to Mr. Satan's mischief and, again, as always, taking public recognition and credit for beating a guy he can't even remember the name of, after Cell and Majin Buu. I wouldn't call this a filler episode, but yeah, not much worth watching here. I wasn't expecting them to make fun of Piccolo once again, not only is it getting old, it's actually making me pretty pissed off. Piccolo is a stoic, incredibly powerful warrior and previous evil maniacal villain, enough of making fun of him by putting him in awkward positions.
And apparently we'll get Vegeta involved in cooking again in next episode.
Loved the scene where Vegeta is on the mountains, the detail of the sand and dust piling up in his boots meaning he's been there motionless for perhaps days is a perfect Vegeta-alone moment. And again, he said "omae" when referring to Kakarotto, not "kisama", which just reflects and illustrates yet another stage he reached in terms of his respect towards him in terms of interactions with Goku and feelings towards him.
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An entire episode dedicated to Mr. Satan's mischief and, again, as always, taking public recognition and credit for beating a guy he can't even remember the name of, after Cell and Majin Buu. I wouldn't call this a filler episode, but yeah, not much worth watching here. I wasn't expecting them to make fun of Piccolo once again, not only is it getting old, it's actually making me pretty pissed off. Piccolo is a stoic, incredibly powerful warrior and previous evil maniacal villain, enough of making fun of him by putting him in awkward positions.
And apparently we'll get Vegeta involved in cooking again in next episode.
Loved the scene where Vegeta is on the mountains, the detail of the sand and dust piling up in his boots meaning he's been there motionless for perhaps days is a perfect Vegeta-alone moment. And again, he said "omae" when referring to Kakarotto, not "kisama", which just reflects and illustrates yet another stage he reached in terms of his respect towards him in terms of interactions with Goku and feelings towards him.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
Really fun episode that's not a boring lame rehash of past material.
It's not a rehash of past material, sure, but for an entire Dragonball episode, you've got to admit there wasn't much to it. We all knew this would happen, it's basically the same as with the first two or three episodes of DBSuper minus Beerus' appearances back then. Not really filler, but no serious stuff going on either. It was fun and had that perfect Vegeta moment, reminded me a lot of the two times during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs he stands on top of a mountain, one of them with Mirai no Trunks, for days on end reflecting on his way to achieve further levels of power after getting beaten by #18 and surpassed by a number of different warriors.
And again, the "omae" instead of "kisama" thing has quite a lot of significance when it comes to just how Vegeta now looks at Goku in terms of his respect towards him, which has reached its climax at this point after so much gradual development throughout the arcs in DBZ.
And again, it appears we'll get Vegeta involved in cooking. At least no octopuses are involved, we only saw an egg.
I honestly was thinking throughout the episode, especially by the first half of the episode, Mr. Satan was being partially actually delirious with all the insane powers and fights he's been witnessing throughout the years. However, how hard is it to pronounce "Beerus"? Oh yeah, he was pretty much knocked out by Majin Buu and Beerus the whole time the latter was being talked about and introduced. He reverted to his Cell Games-era stomach aches, won again without having the power to do so, kept his image, and yet everyone was starting to question whether it was really him who defeated this "Hakaishin" soon, and I mean seconds, after they were all chanting his name, just because he failed to fight effectively against that alien.
Nice thing to have his two students from the Cell Games appear again. Goes to show they're doing their best and putting actual effort into not forgetting anyone from the past, no matter how distant it is.
Found it funny that he called Gohan first, then Vegeta, then he was thinking of Goku, but then even Trunks or Goten would be enough, just to save his ass. Isn't he tired of being put in those positions and circumstances?
Sometimes it's hard to understand or grasp if we're supposed to look at DBSuper's smoother in-between major sagas episodes seriously or not; you'll find ridiculous moments most of the time, but then you get the serious Vegeta moments, for example, put in there in the middle of the ridiculousness. I know the same happened in DB and DBZ, but, again, I've had this feeling for a long time, ever since the TV series pretty much began airing, there's something wrong with its pacing.
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All in all, two pages of discussion are pretty much enough to sum this particular episode up. Not really filler, but a smooth episode stuck in the series so that we get a break from a five-episode super fight between Hakaishin Birusu and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. And you can't move on to the next serious arc right away, you've got to have two or three episodes like this.
It's definitely enjoyable, lots of details to catch here and there, some stuff is rehashed or a repetition, but it's basically just fun.
We all could definitely use an episode like this after five ones of insane fighting, so yeah, it also served that purpose.
And again, I honestly think Mr. Satan was, despite his usual carefully planned tactics and sheer luck, being close to delusional. He didn't actually SHOW his self-proclaimed Kami/Super Saiya-jin transformation to anyone, he just envisioned it in his head. A few years around guys who can actually go Super Saiya-jin, fight like that and are capable of destroying the Universe will do that to you.
Can't get enough of the Vegeta-alone moment, but would and could do without one more instance of ridiculing Piccolo. The degree of seriousness they approach Piccolo should be just about the same they use for Vegeta (and even so, Vegeta has had his own fair share of ridiculousness in episode 6 too, so yeah).
One last thing, which I've mentioned before at some point: no complaints about the music, but the original background stuff from Shunsuke Kikuchi was one of the many elements that made DB and DBZ so utterly fantastic, and we don't get them here. That and the pacing, or rhythm, or whatever you want to call it; there's just something wrong with it in DBSuper. Not too wrong, just weird.
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Beerus-sama wrote:
- sounds like a few years atleast have passed as Chichi doesn't have any money left from what Goku gave her in the first episode...
- I also was hoping it was a movie the SSJ Satan thing :( but that explains the great effects the scenes had with SSJ Satan :lol:
As far as I could understand it, and that's the reason why Goku reacts the way he did, Chi Chi said she already spent all the money Goku reminded her he brought home, which is why the interior of the house seems to have improved quite a lot.
Yeah, it reminded us automatically of the stupid movie they made at the Tenkaichi Budokai preceding the Majin Buu arc, but no, actually it was just Mr. Satan hallucinating.
Beerus-sama wrote:
Next episode looks like a Whis and Vegeta episode.... I wonder how will that be :think:
Exactly, in these smoother episodes they seem to pick on a particular character or a particular family and stick with them for the episode's duration, dedicating it basically entirely to them, as in, ok, this one's for Vegeta, next one's for Krillin, next one's for Mr. Satan, and so on. Since there were only two or three in the beginning of the series and two or three more now, they need to split time and introduce interesting and even somewhat serious scenes here and there, but the end result is always something that makes me think they hastily made up and finally said "ok, that makes one episode, we made the 20 minutes somehow with this and that material".
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Zombie wrote:
My god the dance killed me.
I'm not happy about Piccolo's role in this episode. At all.
My sentiments exactly. As a hardcore Piccolo fan, I'm beginning to get a little bit tired of having them put him in ridiculous or laughable positions and circumstances. It began back in the Majin Buu arc and the trend seems to continue, and they seem to forget that Piccolo used to be basically Vegeta in his early days before he appeared, Goku's arch-rival, a maniacal demon, an incredibly powerful warrior with a serious and stoic personality. Enough of making fun of him. And if they threw REAL action time for him in the Freeza arc within DBSuper and even after that it would be cool, what we saw from him in Fukkatsu no F was decent but I want more from Piccolo.
Chuquita wrote:
Just noticed Vegeta doesn't wear his gloves while cooking. :shock:
How rare to see his hands!
I used to think once that we rarely see his hands, because whatever outfit he uses throughout the arcs in DBZ, even loosing most of the gear gradually, he never gets rid of the gloves, but in actual fact there's quite a few instances where we get to see his hands, like when he's naked right after returning to Earth, when he's wearing the "badman" shirt, when he's changing armor in Freeza's ship while waiting for Krillin and Gohan, etc. It's rare, but it's not THAT rare, it's not like we've never seen his hands before.
Doctor. wrote:
What's wrong with Super's obsession over food?
Indeed. Beerus and Whis are almost as obsessed with food as the Saiya-jin, with the difference being that the Saiya-jin eat because they're just naturally hungry, while Beerus and Whis like to appreciate the flavor of what they eat. It's been a recurrent theme in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, to the point of being one of the focal and fundamental points of particular episodes and to the point of making Vegeta temporarily a chef.
Dragonball always had a thing with food, and I don't mind that at all, on the contrary, but they seem to be overdoing it just a little bit in DBSuper. Besides, whenever I watch that stuff, just like whenever I watched Goku's numerous instances of eating like an animal throughout DBZ, it makes me hungry myself unless I just finished eating.
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soulnova wrote:
Can you remind me, please, what omae means in this context?
It's basically an informal way of referring to someone else, unlike "kisama", which is extremely rude and displays hostility, or "anata" or "kimi", which are much more formal and happen in a context of well-mannered speaking and respect. It's basically the "you" version of "ore" (I). Vegeta does refer to himself as "ore" throughout the entirety of DBZ, but refers to most others as "kisama". One would expect such a self-proud warrior to use something like "watashi" or "boku" to refer to himself, like Piccolo Daimao, Cell, Freeza or Beerus, but it also has to do with how well-mannered you are when you speak, whether it's genuine or not (in Freeza's case, his well-mannered way of speaking isn't genuine, when he shows his true colors by the end of his fight with Goku on Namek he uses "kisama" instead of "kimi" and "ore" instead of his typical "boku".
Chuquita wrote:
I got curious too, so I googled. I do want to wait for a more knowledgeable speaker's reply, but for what it's worth Wikipedia says:
Not intending to be rude with you or anything, but I'm quite knowledgeable when it comes to Japanese. Watching every single episode of DBZ, all day, every day, for decades, hundreds of times will do that you. I possess quite a large amount of vocabulary and even a significant knowledge of grammar, and I gained all that from DBZ. :P
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Bullza wrote:
Well it's way too early to say on Champa and Vodas as they were only just introduced. Beerus isn't a villain no, he's not really even that evil, he's just an antagonist. Champa doesn't seem so evil going by that chapter and neither does Vodas but if it was all some sinister plan then Vodas could be made to be as evil as Freeza or Cell if that was the intent.
If that's the intent it will fail miserably. Freeza is arguably the most charismatic of all DBZ villains (sadistic, no respect for any life form except his own, arrogant, racist, genocidal, maniacal, enslaver, absolutely evil), and Cell stops at nothing to achieve his selfish goal, even if it means displaying absolutely no respect for any form of life either (he absorbed millions of humans in a horrific way and killed thousands just to try to flush out #18).
Regarding Champa, his schemes and the fact he wants to remain unnoticed suggest to me that he's more of a schemer - and thus perhaps more of a coward - than Beerus is. Beerus is proud of himself, among many other character traits, you wouldn't conceive him scheming to get something he wants, he just goes there and does whatever it takes (for example, looking for the Super Saiya-jin God individual).
None of them, neither Beerus, Champa, Whis or Vados can be deemed villains, though. At most, they're antagonists. Given the proper circumstances, I think at least Beerus and Whis would act to save and help the good cause (as seen in Fukkatsu no F). Just because Beerus fights Goku and threatens numerous times to destroy the Earth, with Whis' apparent approval, doesn't mean he's evil. There's just no way we can compare him, and most likely Champa, to a lesser degree, to the likes of Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta in his early days, Freeza, Future #17, Future #18, Cell or Kid Buu, and I'm not even counting the Movies.
All of these guys have their own particular agendas, but whatever their final goal is, the way to achieve involves, or may involve, killing off entire races of people, destroying planets, slaughtering races, assassination, torture, etc. Beerus does display some of those traits here and there before he lost his shit and before the fight with Super Saiya-jin God Goku, but, because you watched BoG, you know that deep down he really can't be called a full-fledged villain (and not a full-fledged good guy, either, it's an entirely different concept in terms of character introduction, and probably the aspect that makes him such a wonderful addition to the franchise).
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Dogasu wrote:
I don't remember Chi-Chi's kitchen being that huge before.
It wasn't. As far as I could understand it, she already used the money Goku got from Mr. Satan to improve the interior of the house, although I doubt she'd spend all that insane amount of money just to buy a new TV, expand the room a little bit and buy some new furniture, but whatever.
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Cetra wrote:
...
Wow, no money again. Chichi must have some heavy gambling problems. Top notch writing. Maybe watching the episode will at least make the rest funny enough for me.
I'm not entirely sure she said she already spent the entirety of the huge amount of money Goku got, I just deduced it based on Goku's reaction plus the fact that the house has been obviously and visibly improved. But spending that amount of money to the last cent should mean she bought themselves a f****** palace, so I'm really not sure.
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Araki wrote:
soulnova wrote:
Can we have some extra insight on Gohan telling Goku about Videl being pregnant? Is it a japanese tradition? It felt wierdly out of place at that point.
Despite being a formality, i think that was because Goku and Gohan didn't interact at all when they found out about the pregnancy. So maybe Gohan wanted to hear his father's thoughts and approval.
Taking into account all the formalities regarding personal relationships and interactions and the whole culture of Japan (along with many other Asian countries and cultures), I'd say he was basically formally announcing to his father that he was going to be a father himself, as in, the family is just about to grow and there'll soon be a new bloodline member to the Son family. Pure Saiya-jins don't seem to care about family and blood issues as humans do (Brolly kills his father, Goku helps Piccolo kills his brother, Raditz intends to kill his brother, Raditz intends to kill his nephew, Vegeta doesn't care about the genocide of his race, Vegeta at least tries to not care about his newly-found family - Trunks and Bulma -, etc.), so Goku isn't really that hyped, surprised or particularly happy to know about the fact he's going to be a grandfather and that his son is going to have a daughter of his own. Goku's concern, other than ultimately protecting Earth, life in general and every living thing against serious menaces is to get stronger and always reach new stages, just like Vegeta, who's obviously, by now, the one and only one who can keep up with him at this point among the good guys' team, and Goku goes as far as recurrently neglecting his family and all types of obligations and responsibilities to once again train more and more.
He's obviously happy to know about that, but that's not going to rock his world. It obviously has a much larger impact on Chi Chi and Gyumao, besides Gohan and Videl themselves.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Zombie wrote:
I'm not happy about Piccolo's role in this episode. At all.
I'm not happy with the reasoning behind his role is the episode, but I absolutely love that he's now integrated enough into Gohan's family that he's forced to do mundane shit like this (and babysit Pan in "F"). It's like the driving episode all over again. Of course, it was never going to be that good, because Mr. Satan was the intended focus.
I don't like the fact he's integrated enough into Gohan's family, as you put it, at all. He was a protector, teacher and a father figure to Gohan as early as DBZ began, in the Saiya-jin saga, and his relationship with him was one of the catalysts for his relatively quick process of transition from full-fledged villain to a powerful warrior fighting for good. I certainly don't like to see him "forced" (as if Chi Chi or Videl could force someone like Piccolo to do anything, by the way).
I believe that whoever appreciates the numerous instances of "humiliation" and ridiculousness he's been subjected to beginning in and since the Majin Buu arc fails to recognize what makes hardcore Piccolo fans admire him so much. It's basically the same process with Vegeta, with some twists and adaptations here and there. Piccolo is a stoic, extremely powerful Namek-sei-jin, he used to be a maniacal demon, the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, he belongs to a particularly special race of aliens and he's one of the most gifted among them, for that matter. He's proud, stern, tough, disciplined, rigid, powerful, stoic and serious, traits shared by Vegeta (and Tenshinhan, to some degree).
Turning him into a ridiculous character and constantly putting him in settings and circumstances which are obviously awkward for him isn't quite pleasant, just like it wouldn't be pleasant if they applied it to Vegeta to the same degree (they do, but not to the same degree).
The driving episode in DBZ was a filler one and it was funny back then and still is, but after that he went on throughout the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs to become the most powerful warrior among the good guys, got himself nearly killed, achieved a huge power up and displayed his trademark seriousness and stoic personality, coupled with extreme power. In DBSuper his personality and all of the character traits I've been mentioning are constantly being basically "raped". That does affect and piss of a hardcore Piccolo fan.
Piccolo watched over Gohan near his house while he was a teenager and was studying, etc., and always showed up to protect him NUMEROUS occasions, but that doesn't mean he all of a sudden has to become part of the family and have dinner with them and buy the f****** groceries, right? That's going a bit too far. Let's not make Piccolo a comedian. Here and there, sure, that's funny, but this is just overdoing it. I'm just glad he got his proper fighting time in Fukkatsu no F, I hope that's one of the things they don't change in the retelling of Movie in the Freeza saga within DBSuper; quite in fact, I hope they expand on it and give him an ever more prominent role, but somehow I doubt that. If, despite his massive power, he ceased being a useful fighter when it comes to the likes of Beerus, Majin Buu, Goku and Vegeta, and he just ceased to be able to keep up with the most powerful warriors ever since the Majin Buu saga doesn't mean he lost his fantastic power and, much less, his particular character and personality traits. He's a stern, stoic, proud and extremely powerful warrior, not a comedian. Not going to expand on this, I'd just be repeating myself over and over.
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Avery wrote:
It's a bit late to say this but... welcome back, MaGyunia! This section in particular has been in a desperate need of your essays. I'm glad I can read your thoughts again :)
It's not late at all, it happened yesterday. :) Thank you for your recognition and for your welcoming back, and for the value you put into my typical huge walls of text full of thoughts and concepts. I'm glad to see many more users than I initially thought appreciate the way I write on all aspects.
Avery wrote:
Regarding Piccolo, it's just that serious characters in humorous/awkward situations can be even funnier than genuine comic relief characters. Toei seems to have just realized that Vegeta had too much potential, and now they are going all-out with the ridiculousness. I mean, he's treated waaaaay "worse" than Piccolo, who at least has been shown in dumb situations before. Vegeta's funny moments in Z were so few, short and quickly forgotten in a matter of seconds. Piccolo is my favourite character, and I admit, he can be an awesome straightman. I don't think Toei has jumped the shark with him. He had way more serious moments in Super so far.
I know taking and picking particularly stern and serious characters and putting them in awkward circumstances has quite the potential to make for a funny scene, I recognize that and I value that, but my point is that it's just been too much with Piccolo, for the reasons I stated before in more than one post.
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LightBing wrote:
Those saying Piccolo shouldn't be helping out or that is weird he occasionally joins the Son family forget he isn't Piccolo anymore, at least the Piccolo of old. He lived three years with Goku during the 3 year training for the Androids. He joined Kami which provided the most significant softening to his personality.
Sure, but even after he completed his process of transition from full-fledged villain to a protector of Earth, Gohan, Goku and all life and an invaluable and extremely powerful member of the team of good guys, and after he spent those 3 years training for the incoming Jinzouningen, and even after he fused with Kami and further softened his personality, he (said by himself) retained the majority of what made up his character, and went on, during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, to act with the same degree of seriousness when fighting, coming up with strategies, etc., always with the same serious, stoic, anti-social traits.
Regarding Piccolo and the comparison of his depictions between what you call the "Piccolo of old" and the more recent events, it all basically comes down to the fact that whenever Piccolo isn't assessing an antagonist's degree of menace, coming up with intelligent strategies to help out or fighting, his ridigity has apparently lost, in the eyes of the creators and most fans, its ability to be taken seriously, and whatever appearances he makes in non-fighting, non-serious circumstances are nothing but constant instances of picking and putting him in awkward positions. At least they show the proper respect for his fantastic past and character and let him have his proper screen time (nowhere near as much as it should be, in my particular personal view, but that's just me), and even fighting time, at least in Fukkatsu no F, although he didn't have his go at Freeza himself. Again, I hope they don't change the fact that he appears just as much (in fact, I hope he appears even more) in the Freeza arc within DBSuper when compared to Fukkatsu no F, and I seriously hope he has a fighting go not only at those useless regular Freeza soldiers, but at Freeza himself. In fact, one of the several serious issues with the hastily-made and released GT which caused it to become an utter failure from any angles and perspectives and points of view was the fact that they got almost totally rid of Piccolo. Perhaps not the major flaw in GT, and I'm not going to start a discussion about it again, nor is it my intention to do so or to generate one, but it's just one more of its structural, basic flaws.
Piccolo will always be Piccolo, stoic, serious, rigid, stern, proud, and no matter how many years he spends around Gohan, Goku or even Chi Chi, and no matter how much even his level of fantastic extreme power becomes obsolete when it comes to the likes of Majin Buu, Beerus, Whis, Goku, Freeza, Vegeta, etc., he retains most, if not all, of his personality characteristics expect the ones he lost when he ceased becoming the main menace and villain in DB and the very early episodes of DBZ.
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VegettoEX wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Not intending to be rude with you or anything, but I'm quite knowledgeable when it comes to Japanese. Watching every single episode of DBZ, all day, every day, for decades, hundreds of times will do that you. I possess quite a large amount of vocabulary and even a significant knowledge of grammar, and I gained all that from DBZ. :P
Very little of what you'll learn by watching DBZ is actually important/relevant/decent with regard to Japanese grammar. It's exaggerated dialog aimed at children. For example, you didn't mention above how "boku" is generally something used by children; it's certainly not something a "proud warrior" would use. Freeza would use it (does he actually? blanking here) because he's a spoiled brat, not because he's being polite. An actual proud warrior using "boku" would probably be laughed out of his clan.
Folks here have come to expect translations and analysis from peers that have formally studied the language, live(d) in the country, etc. well beyond just their interest in DBZ.
(I say the above explanation also as someone with no extended formal study of the language, so take it as you will.)
Hmm, perhaps I should have pointed out that whatever knowledge I gained from watching DBZ on a constant basis for over a decade, coupled with a natural propensity to languages, enables me to clear some doubts some other users might have, which was just the case. She didn't know the difference between "omae" and "kisama", and I was explaining it to her, as for me it's such a basic concept. Not criticizing her, obviously, nobody has the obligation to know a word of Japanese even if they're into anime or DBZ. I was actually trying to be helpful.
Yes, "boku" is especially used by children (most notably Gohan), but both Freeza and Beerus use it, as you said correctly, because they're spoiled brats, but isn't Vegeta himself not a spoiled brat to some degree?
In any circumstances, "watashi" would be the ideal term to refer to oneself in either a formal context or when you're a well-spoken individual with respect towards yourself, and Piccolo Daimao and Cell, just to name a few of the most prominent ones, use it. I forgot to mention that, surprisingly, Piccolo himself doesn't use "watashi", but "ore", or, in some cases, "ore-sama", despite being a well-spoken, intelligent, rigid, proud and formal individual to interact with. He uses "kisama" to refer even to some individuals he respects, like Vegeta (in this case, he doesn't actually respect pretty much anybody), never "omae" or "anata".
But thanks for clearing that up, VegettoEX, but the fact that you pointed out that I could have severe flaws in terms of knowledge of Japanese doesn't really apply here, as I was just trying to help someone who, presumably, knows less than I do. Perhaps I should have been more thorough and detailed in the post you referred to.
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I'm almost as hyped to see just why they decide to develop that stage, and the very first time they achieve it, as I am to see who gets it first, but following one of Dragonball's most notable trademarks - Goku always behind one step ahead of Vegeta - will probably be at play here as well; either that, or they get it at the same exact time. Vegeta has/will have indeed skipped Super Saiya-jin 3 and FINALLY caught up with Goku by Fukkatsu no F (and thus, in Freeza's arc within DBSuper) without being left behind once again, and by going from his previous best - Super Saiya-jin 2 - to something close to Beerus, Whis, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, he automatically surpasses all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, Vegitto and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
We might see a small change in the typical tendency and witness Vegeta finally being able to not only surpass his previous limits, and those of others, which was a regular theme throughout all the arcs in DBZ, this time it appears he won't be overcome by Kakarotto just when he THOUGHT he had reached or surpassed him and, yet again, proclaimed himself to be the strongest warrior in the Universe. This time they're really on par with each other, which is a relief for any hardcore Vegeta fan.
The one thing they absolutely cannot change about the retelling of Fukkatsu no F in the TV series' episodes is the fact that Vegeta gets his fighting time against Freeza and beats the s*** out of him just like in the movie, or perhaps even longer. That was enough to finally, after decades, take revenge for the humiliation he was subjected to, but now that I think of it, it's barely one minute.
I'm sure they won't change that, but for some reason I'm afraid they could change the fact Vegeta is not only capable of killing Freeza but actually charges a blast to finish him off. I'm not even asking for Vegeta to, at least once, be the actual hero to get rid of the menace, I'm just asking that they at least keep it as it is in the Movie and add a few new things and adaptations to it just like they did with the retelling of BoG in the form of the Beerus arc.
I was relieved when the names of the following episodes first came out, as they all suggest that most events that happened off-screen at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F are going, as most of us called for and wished, be given screen time in the series' episodes. That makes sense, they're the perfect opportunity to take their time and, instead of filling it with hastily-conceived material with no substance, please the fans who want to see just how, when and why Goku and Vegeta decide to go off to train with Whis, how and when Vegeta reaches Super Saiya-jin God and how, when and why both of them develop an even further stage. All of this needs to be seen, and it apparently will.
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Sandubadear wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
In any circumstances, "watashi" would be the ideal term to refer to oneself in either a formal context or when you're a well-spoken individual with respect towards yourself, and Piccolo Daimao and Cell, just to name a few of the most prominent ones, use it.
Don't forget Goku's first encounter with Beerus, where he has to be all polite and uses that word :P
Goku uses 'watakushi' IIRC, which is even more formal.
Exactly. Since he has virtually no idea how to properly address people depending on the formality of a conversation, he either doesn't use "desu" when he's supposed or overuses it, and the same goes for his usage of "watakushi" instead of just plain "watashi". It's interesting, though, that the only ones Goku adds the suffix "-sama" to are Kaiou-sama and Beerus (Birusu-sama), but knowing Goku's character, I'd say that's just because he for some reason conditioned himself to say the names that way, not because he's constantly considerate and respectful towards both of them (certainly not towards Kaiou-sama, whose house he continuously destroys, whose planet he uses as his training grounds and who he actually had indirectly killed).
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Bullza wrote:
I'm saying Vados could be turned into a main villain. She could have a Aizen thing going on where for now she seems ok but then eventually it turns out she's actually behind some sinister plan and a really evil and powerful being.
Tobi was originally a joke villain before he became a proper main villain. Something like that could be done with Super. It's an idea that hasn't been done before in Dragon Ball.
I wouldn't mind having a full-fledged villain in DBSuper, and quite in fact I was hoping for it when we were discussing the really new stuff and characters we'd be introduced after the retellings of BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but by full-fledged villain I was thinking of something along the lines of the typical maniacal, genocidal, sadistic yet extremely powerful guy we saw in all the arcs between the last stage of DB and all throughout the entirety of DBZ (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, #17, #18, Cell, Kid Buu). We're not going to get that. Besides, these guys aren't schemers or plotters, they're proud, arrogant and either bent on conquest and world domination (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), achieving immortality and becoming the strongest entity in the Universe (Vegeta, Freeza), killing Goku (Future #17, Future #18), achieving an unprecedented level of power and perfection by absorbing millions of humans in a horrific way (Cell) or just destroying everything and everyone in sight because that's what they do (Kid Buu).
I just can't see Vados, or Champa, or both of them acting together, coming even close to something like this. The introduction of Beerus and his particular personality traits was already enough to let us know that the degree of seriousness and the menace a potential new antagonist represents won't have the same degree or level of drama and desperation as the later stages of DB and the whole of DBZ did. The only way they can possibly, perhaps get that back is precisely by using previous villains, as was/will be the case of Freeza.
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Draconic wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
They both have it so to show who gets it first is pretty moot. Especially since Goku gets to show it off against Freeza first. It isn't really compensating for it at all.
It develops his character and changes the dynamic with Goku if he does get it first. He was always behind, but now finally does what he always wanted.
Not to mention that the only one surprised by Vegeta having the form in FnF was Freeza himself. That will still be there and, with Super's tendency to prolong stuff, will give the Prince his due in battle for at least one episode.
Well, Freeza's time, despite his numerous cameos in the later arcs, was so far away removed that back when he was alive, either on Namek or during his invasion of Earth with his father, Vegeta wasn't even a regular Super Saiya-jin yet, let alone a Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai or Super Saiya-jin 2. This is just one more angle to show just how much of a gap Freeza skipped in terms of power from when he was the real threat and menace and the post-Majin Buu arc era he, along with Beerus and the others, show up in the recent Movies and DBSuper.
I guess that if we base ourselves on the fact that the battle between Beerus and Super Saiya-jin God Goku stretched for up to five episodes, and this is a TV series we're talking about, with all the necessary (or unnecessary) filler material they'll throw in, I would expect Vegeta's particular go at Freeza after the latter's fight with Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku will stretch for at least one episode, yeah, that's about the right timing. That is, assuming they'll keep the fundamental sequence of events in the Freeza arc the same as it was in Fukkatsu no F, as in: Freeza shows up on Earth in his first stage, everyone fights his army, Goku and Vegeta show up, Freeza transforms into his fourth form, battles Saiya-jin beyond God Goku in that stage, then Golden Freeza battles Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Goku gets a hole in his chest by the laser, gets saved and Vegeta finally steps in.
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Herms wrote:
I took it the opposite, since Beerus is so scrawny. Based just on physique, shouldn't a bulky guy have the upper hand in a fight against a wire-thin guy?
We've known since pretty much the beginning of DB that physical appearance has virtually nothing to do with actual power as it is measured and used in the Dragonball Universe. The manipulation of one's Ki is what matters, regardless of the size and/or appearance.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
If he were stronger, then running into Beerus wouldn't be that big of a setback.
Exactly. Beerus seems to be much more straight-forward, proud and self-confident than Champa, who plots and schemes. Plotting and scheming instead of jumping to a fight is a potential sign of weakness, or lack of self-assuredness. It's just one more reason to be almost sure, by now, that regardless of how Vados and Whis stack up against each other, Beerus is indeed above Champa (thankfully).
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dae428 wrote:
I will say that I would like to see Mr. Satan eventually get some action in the future though. I feel as though his cowardice and incompetence was just a bit exaggerated in this episode. I mean not Muten Roshi or Chi Chi levels, but still. I'd very much like seeing him do some cool stuff in regards to martial arts or crowd manipulation at least every now and then.
Isn't that what he always does, always did since the Cell Games, and always will do? Just two days ago you witnessed an episode entirely dedicated to that kind of usual, typical stuff from Mr. Satan, from whom you can't really expect much else. He's there for comedy purposes, to fill a few episodes and also because he was somewhat instrumental to actually defeat Kid Buu and gradually developed what is now a full-fledged blood relationship with some of the main characters. Some of us were just complaining about the overuse of Mr. Satan's usual incompetence/luck/taking credit for real warriors' feats routine, and now you want even more of that? I'd tell you not to expect much from Mr. Satan from now on, they basically had to fill one episode and decided to dedicate it almost entirely to Mr. Satan, for some reason.
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JoeCapricorn wrote:
I wonder what kind of fighters we'll see from Universe 6. On the one hand, they might not be at the level of Goku and Vegeta, on the other, we might have an evil SSJB guy. If their planet Plant were still around, there could be strong Saiyans from this twin Universe.
Theoretically, there could a Freeza-level guy, a Bojack-level guy, a Cell-level guy, a Dabura-level guy, a Majin/Kid Buu-level guy, and so on, much in the same way there is in the 7th Universe, especially taking into account that they're "twin" Universes (whatever that might mean, but I've got my own theories). Whoever shows up, regardless of their scale of strength, will always be below the Vados + Champa duo, just like everyone, regardless of their unbelievable fantastic might is and probably will always be below the ultimate Beerus + Whis duo.
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I think the way to look at the stage Goku (and later Vegeta) achieve, by absorbing the power and abilities of the particular Super Saiya-jin God stage, officially called Saiya-jin beyond God, utterly makes actually physically transforming into Super Saiya-jin God (through the ritual or any other way). If the Saiya-jin is gifted enough to make that power and those abilities his own after such a short time using the SSJG stage, as Goku and Vegeta are, actually transforming into the stage physically, if they can, doesn't present any advantages.
Basically, in the Saiya-jin beyond God stage Goku and Vegeta are able to use the exact same power and abilities (even making others unable to sense their godly Ki) the SSJG particular stage provides.
What I AM much more hyped about is to see just when (this one is pretty easy, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the Movies' version of events, and in the next, incoming episodes), why and how Goku and Vegeta decide/are able to achieve or develop a further stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. I have my theories on how the SSJGSSJ stage is an advantage and a power-up when compared to both SSJG and Saiya-jin beyond God, and I've stated them here before more than once, but I want to see just by how much there is a power increase, and potentially other advantages to the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage. It could also be that, just like Goku "explains" to Freeza in Fukkatsu no F, going Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is a mere consequence of the fact that the Saiya-jin, who has attained Super Saiya-jin God and Saiya-jin beyond God, had previously attained one or several of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and going SSJGSSJG provides a somewhat equivalent (or not so equivalent) power-up to the Saiya-jin beyond God stage just like any Super Saiya-jin stage powers up the Saiya-jin's base power exponentially, depending on which of the several SSJ stages it is. We need to remember that before Goku first achieved Super Saiya-jin on Namek against Freeza, and was soon followed by the appearances of Mirai no Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, etc., all of them as Super Saiya-jins, achieving that transformation, even the regular one, was an extremely rare occurrence, which according to what Vegeta was told happened only about every thousand years.
Achieving the first, regular Super Saiya-jin was a feat at the Freeza times, but so many further ones were achieved (Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, even Super Saiya-jin 3), so by the time Beerus arrives and all of this recent material takes place, whether in the Movies' version of in the retold version within DBSuper, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, just to mention the Saiya-jin, have gone through so much and so many transformations and insane power-ups that, in order to have at least a chance to reach, or come close to reach the likes of the most powerful entities the Universe has ever known, far above anything they've encounter before, even all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, further stages of Super Saiya-jin transformations needed to be achieved, although I believe the Super Saiya-jin God, and thus the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages, are much more of a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up than an actual successor to the most powerful Super Saiya-jin stage achieved before (SSJ3), as I believe all of them basically build upon each other; the SSJG and SSJGSSJ stages are achieved through entirely different methods, provide a completely different set of abilities and, overall, happen in entirely different circumstances, but that's just my position on the matter.
rereboy wrote:
Because suppressing Ki is completely different from an actual transformation. Ginyu was able to accurately predict Goku's power despite his suppressing, but he couldn't predict Goku's Kaioken because that also works differently from just suppressing Ki. Beerus can also see or guess a person's real power within their current form, but he can't really predict transformations. And arguing that Beerus could even do what Ginyu could regarding judging a fighter doesn't make much sense.
Ginyu, regardless of his power level, which is by now obviously ridiculous, was a gifted and careful martial artist and was able to accurately judge Goku's actual power level in his base form (he had no idea about the Kaio-Ken technique, which hightened Goku's power to insane proportions).
It all comes down to one's ability, regardless of their actual level of power, to evaluate and judge an opponent's strength and abilities martial arts-wise and power level-wise base on one's experience, gift and intelligence. Even Muten Roshi, Karin or Krillin are able to accurately predict just how much of a menace a villain is, and how their power compares to the main guys' strength, throughout DBZ.
Beerus, and obviously Whis, are so much high in the scale of expertise when it comes to martial arts and power that it's pretty much obvious and acceptable that it's rather easy for them to judge someone's Ki, even if they have the ability to suppress it partially or entirely to 0. By the way, I've always believed that if you use some sort of Ki manipulation technique or if you transform into a stage that provides you with a profound power up (Kaio-Ken, any of the Super Saiya-jin stages), it's obvious that there's no way you can suppress your Ki, even if, refraining from using Ki attacks and particular transformations, in one's base form, one has the ability to totally or partially suppress their Ki).
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irreality wrote:
As I rewatched this episode, I noticed an interesting bit of character development for Goku -- I think it parallels the bit on BoG, but I actually think this was more intriguing. He is genuinely *angry* about Beerus trying to tell him he has limits. It seemed to anger/upset him more than the eventual fate of the earth or anything like. Even if he dies, he wants people to know: he can always train more do something more and reach a higher level and get a rematch. He is not a static being restrained by others' estimation of his power level. Even a God can't tell him what he can or cannot do.
I don't know, I liked that insight into Goku's character: for him, the worst thing in the world would be to be stuck in a level without improvement, or to be told there is something he cannot do.
Is it a character progression of regression? In Cell, he was pretty blasé about there being things his son could do that he couldn't. Maybe, interacting more with the other world and with Gods have given him a different impression of what is possible. Or he doesn't see life with fixed limits anymore.
It is different than him being angry at having to use other people's power, but it is interesting to me to see the things that rile up Goku. He isn't as bothered with not being the strongest (for now -- he definitely will want a rematch) or even being defeated, but at being told he cannot eventually be the strongest, or stop an attack even if he shouldn't be strong enough to do so. Overall, I like that.
True, Goku's ultimate goal, as a mixture of the fact he's a pure Saiya-jin coupled with his natural personality, is to go beyond his and others' limits, and to actually see no actual limits both to his own power and to anyone's power. That's what keeps him going on a permanent basis. He only tosses that aside and sets other priorities in particular dramatic circumstances, when he gets more serious about a menace over Earth, his friends, human beings and life in general.
I actually found it disappointing that one of the things they changed (in this case, left out) in DBSuper's Beerus arc when compared to BoG was the fact that he doesn't actually get angry, or at least say he's angry, at the fact that Super Saiya-jin was a stage he couldn't achieve by himself, he needed the help of others. That doesn't compare to Vegeta's pathological pride, obviously, but it demonstrates and illustrates yet again that Goku also has quite a lot of proud as a man and as a martial artist/fighter.
Goku once said that having to face someone even stronger than Freeza made him both scared and typically excited, but the latter always gets the advantage, he'll always seek stronger opponents and he doesn't appear to mind, unlike Vegeta, that there are guys out there who might be stronger, or even far stronger than him, and this has been shown in multiple occasions (when he finds Mr. Popo, his admiration of Vegeta's superior ability during their first fight, etc.).
I agree, Goku's worst nightmare would be stuck with no further challenges, but he shouldn't complain, nor should Vegeta, as they faced each other, then went through an entire war on Namek, then faced Freeza, then the Jinzouningen and Cell, and then even Majin Buu. Now they're being presented with the likes of Beerus + Whis and a version of Freeza which puts him close to the strongest warriors in BoG and Fukkastu no F in terms of ranking.
As for Vegeta, not only does he naturally desire the typical Saiya-jin need to fight and train constantly, he's a fighting genius and has apparently regained his full obsession to surpass Kakarotto, even after the Majin Buu arc admittance that Goku was somehow always one step ahead of him just when he thought he had caught him and that he was better than him; also, for a hardcore Vegeta fan, it's fantastic to have him regain his previous obsession to be not only stronger than Kakarotto, but the very strongest, above everyone, in the Universe, whoever the previous number one guys used to be, as seen in the end of episode 14. Besides, what we saw in the last episode, with him standing on the hills by himself, apparently for days on end, reminded us of his typical days-on-end pondering of achieving new heights to overcome Kakarotto and everyone else, just like we saw in the Jinzouningen saga twice (the first time he went there to ponder on his recent defeat by #18 and recover mentally and emotionally from it, and then he, just like Goku, was pondering on how to overcome the regular Super Saiya-jin stage to be able to take on the Jinzouningen and Cell, if it was possible at all to go beyond Super Saiya-jin, but at that time he was with Mirai no Trunks, although utterly ignoring him).
They're clearly going for Goku and Vegeta to be arguably the main characters (and heroes) in the whole of DBSuper, perhaps alongside Beerus in terms of protagonism. Even someone as incredibly strong as Ultimate Gohan, not to mention Gotenks, Piccolo, #18, Tenshinhan, Majin Buu, or Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 2 and 3 Goku will be pushed to the sidelines and even those who were, at one point, able to keep up with the degrees of power during the Majin Buu arc will no longer be even in the same league as this particular group of "selected" insanely powerful warriors, the very strongest in the 7th and 6th Universes (Whis, Vados, Beerus, Champa, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta).
It's good to keep the old characters around and give them some more or less prominent screen time, and even fighting time, but, as far as the good guys go, Gohan has just been utterly overwhelmed and replaced by Vegeta, and it's ultimately Goku and Vegeta who are going, probably now and forever, to be the only ones with the potential and capability to come close, equal or even, at some point in the future, surpass Beerus, Whis, Vados and Champa. Vegeta skipped/will skip Super Saiya-jin 3 and attain Super Saiya-jin God at some point, basically automatically surpassing a number of warriors who were above him previously at his strongest during the Majin Buu arc, and FINALLY, not only that, he's actually soon going to be not "always one step behind Kakarotto" (the typical routine throughout DBZ), but actually on par with him, matching his degree of power to his degree of protagonism in the TV series.
Chiki wrote:
Toei logic: Vegeta can't even go SSJ3 on his own, but he can go SSJG on his own, which requires 6 Saiyans.
Let's hope this doesn't happen.
It could be argued whether or not Super Saiya-jin God is a particular stage which can be achieved by any other means other than through the ritual, but if it isn't, then Vegeta will have to suck it up and everyone will have to hold hands again at some point, pretty soon. There are numerous instances of fighters being able to mimic another warrior's transformation or technique just by witnessing it, and how it's performed, but I don't think that will be the case here.
Vegeta absolutely and logically needs to attain Super Saiya-jin God first of all, just like Goku did, then incorporate its power and abilities into his base form, just like Goku did, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to become a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin later. He basically needs to follow Goku's every step (which he did throughout DBZ in terms of SSJ stages, with the only exception being SSJ3).
We'll need to see just how Vegeta will attain Super Saiya-jin God. It would be cool, on one hand, if he did it by himself somehow, as it would put him automatically above Goku, who could only do it with the help of the others in the ritual, but somehow it wouldn't make a lot of sense or look too good. I personally think that, UNFORTUNATELY, Vegeta will undergo the ritual and reach SSJG just like Goku did, but that is one of the off-screen events which happened between BoG and Fukkatsu no F that we won't be able to see actually on-screen in DBSuper's version of the events. That, alongside Freeza training, Goku's and Vegeta's decision to go to Beerus' planet to train under Whis, and their development of the SSJGSSJG stage were the off-screen events that I really, really wanted to see on-screen in DBSuper, and at least one them will be shown and given the proper screen time in one or two episodes pretty soon.
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Gmez9 wrote:
Every week that passes by I get more excited (even if there's a mediocre episode) because of universe 6 arc and beyond. Can't wait to see how they handle it..
As time gradually passes, the process of retelling BoG and Fukkatsu as two arcs within DBSuper, taking the first 25 to 30 episodes of an all-new TV series in 18 years to basically retell the same exact events in the same exact circumstances with only some minor changes or adaptations here and there (which a chunk of fans didn't appreciate), is moving forward and we're coming closer and closer to the actually entirely new stuff. We've already got quite a bit of information on who the main characters/antagonists will be and some details on how events will proceed, but I'm still absolutely hyped to see who, if anybody besides Vados and Champa, ends up showing up from the 6th Universe, and how powerful they could be, and just how the relationship and the interactions between the Beerus + Whis duo and the Vados + Champa duo will play out; I'm also hyped to see who ends up on top after the whole arc is over, but I'm betting on Beerus (and thus Whis and their respective 6th Universe counterparts) still being above both Goku and Vegeta, which wouldn't be a totally new scenario as far as ending a saga goes. I doubt Vegeta will be successful for the first time in actually surpassing not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus, Whis, Vados and Champa. For some reason I believe the new characters/antagonists who were introduced and thrown our way in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper are and will always be the ultimate warriors in any universe. Goku and Vegeta did/will do quite well to come close to their levels of power and to have the honor to be trained by Whis just like Hakaishin Beerus did, but at the end of the arc/series I bet the Hakaishins and their respective attendants will still be unreachable (unless, as stated in Fukkastu no F, Goku and Vegeta actually worked and fought together as SSJGSSJ, which won't happen due to their pride and is something that provides an interesting catch to add to all others regarding the interaction between Goku and Vegeta and its implications.
We'll have to wait and see the actual episodes as they come out, or wait for any leaks or official information, but none of us can be sure, at this particular point, if, in fact, the 6th Universe arc will actually be the last in DBSuper, which is something we, all of us, have been assuming based on actually nothing, the series could continue and stretch out with new arcs beyond the 6th Universe one, perhaps even linking to the last 3 episodes of DBZ and dealing with the introduction of Uub and that last Tenkaichi Budokai. It's obvious events will continue to be depicted sooner or later even after the 6th Universe arcs ends, and even after DBSuper ends. Dragonball is immortal and its potential is virtually limitless, new stuff will always, sooner or later, come up and appear as a follow-up to the previous episodes, Movies and Specials.
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Why avoid conversation? If I don't reply to other posts that annoy me, it's because I don't think there'd be any worthwhile conversation to have. Surely, you must have a reason to continue to bring up GT where it's not relevant, hence why I asked. You're acting unnecessarily defensive over a simple question.
Agree. Him going on a mini rant on GT is pretty pointless.
Comparing DBSuper to GT has been done somewhat extensively and intensively in recent months, we've gone into it in detail. GT was discussed, debated and scrutinized for over a decade, we can, and we did, bring it up again to compare it with DBSuper in some interesting aspects, but I'd think the main conclusions have already been reached.
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TripleRach wrote:
To clarify, Masako Nozawa's birthday is the 25th, which has not yet occurred in any time zone as of this writing. I guess it's relevant here because it will coincide with the airing of Super 16, and they've already celebrated with this cake.
Image
I just hope she lives healthily for a long, long time. Replacing a voice-actor for Goku (not to mention Gohan and Goten), who is basically the main character and hero in the franchise, would have quite an impact on the series, at least the original Japanese version of it, which is and has been actually by now the only one I deliberately pay attention to.
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buutenks wrote:
I'm sure vegeta vs freeza fight going to last an episode or 2 ^^.And goku vs freeza proly 4-5 episodes i assume.
Then z fighters vs freeza's men a few episodes,wow ROF saga going to be action packed.
If we consider just how they stretched the Super Saiya-jin 2 vs Beerus fight, the everyone on Earth vs Beerus fight, the enraged Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta vs Beerus fight, the ritual to achieve Super Saiya-jin God, and especially the Super Saiya-jin God Goku vs Beerus one (lasting as much as five entire episodes, with lots of what could be called "filler" material), one could assume that, yeah, one minute worth of major events in the Movies' version equals about half an episode. I wouldn't go so far as saying SSJGSSJ Vegeta vs Freeza will be stretched to as much as two episodes, that would be giving Vegeta far too much protagonism, but they still need to see him beating the sh** out of Freeza again in that badass manner, and this time a little bit longer. A TV series of episodes provides just the chance to expand upon particular events fans would have liked to see stretched out in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, so instead of filling DBSuper's episodes with "filler" material or inconsequential and out-of-place events (not saying it's being done a lot, don't get me wrong), every bit and second of the following episodes should be partially dedicated to go beyond what we saw in the Movies. You get less animation quality, but more content to please all the fans regardless of what they're looking forward the most or which fight or which character they want to see developed the most.
Saiya-jin beyond God vs fourth form Freeza will probably take one to two episodes, and by the time one of the ends, that's exactly when Freeza completes his transformation (which will take a while, I'm assuming) into Golden Freeza, following the typical trend of DBZ, which has occurred already more than once in DBSuper. I don't see the particular transformation into Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin by Goku taking up too long, though, nor Vegeta's, in fact, and then I guess we'll get four to five episodes worth of Golden Freeza vs SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta, much in the same way it took as much as five episodes to cover the entire battle between SSJG Goku and Beerus. The first half of the Movie, with Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Muten Roshi, Gohan and Krillin taking on Freeza' soldiers will probably be done in one episode, not much longer than that. What they ABSOLUTELY need to show on-screen, either during or before the sh** really hits the fan, is Freeza's four-month training, Goku's and Vegeta's training under Whis and both of their decisions to develop a further stage beyond SSJG and Saiya-jin beyond God. I hope we get to see the first time they achieve it as it happens in one of the incoming episodes. Vegeta's reaching of the Super Saiya-jin God stage also needs to be shown on screen, regardless of how he achieves it (and I do see it as a pre-requisite for him to be able to achieve Saiya-jin beyond God, first of all, and then SSJGSSJ, otherwise it wouldn't really make sense).
I see the fact that we have a weekly TV series of episodes as the perfect opportunity to cover on-screen a few particular events most of us are extremely keen on watching, those which happened at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the Movies' version of events, now that they're dealing with an entirely different way of depicting events when compared to the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature.
Fukkatsu no F does need some further explanation and retouching when compared to BoG, but I'm more than glad that everyone got their fighting time in Fukkatsu no F, even if it's against ridiculously-weak Freeza soldiers (who, before his enormous power-up and skip was ridiculous himself to, at least, Piccolo and Gohan at this point), so that's another thing that not only do I NOT want them to change, I want them to quite in fact expand on them both in terms of quantity and quality. And yeah, I hope they correct that ridiculous mistake of having someone like Shisami, who's supposed to be about as strong as Dodoria or Zarbon, be a match for Piccolo, who has at this point not only surpassed all of Freeza's previous forms, he actually went beyond that and surpassed all of the regular Super Saiya-jins, #16, #17, #18 and all versions of Cell except his perfect form variations. Piccolo should be able to wipe him out without even moving by this time.
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ekrolo2 wrote:
Pardon my french here but what the flying scum sucking shit fuck did Chi-Chi spend the equivalent of a 100 million dollars on?!
Doesn't really matter, all it takes is for Goku and the gang to save the entire Universe again, have Mr. Satan take the credit for it and, out of respect, having the latter giving the money to the Son and/or Briefs family. Coming up with someone like Mr. Satan, keeping him around throughout the Majin Buu arc and having him actually play a somewhat important role and become part of the team that comprised Goku and company since forever was actually a nicely-done move and a way to, for example, among other things, solve Chi Chi's financial problems (which are, of course, a recurrent theme and not really of any importance to the actual meat of the arcs, we just happen to be talking about it recently because they dedicated a few minutes to the display of Chi Chi's handling of the money Goku got, I highly doubt that Chi Chi, and any other supporting/minor character, for that matter, will get anything even close to significant screen time now that we're rapidly moving forward to the for the Freeza arc and the build-up for the 6th Universe arc. That's why, in part, these smoother episodes between the major arcs seem out of place and almost like "filler" material, just like so many in DBZ (although in DBZ, not only a few episodes, and in fact entire arcs were filler, most of the filler material was actually thrown into the middle of serious episodes themselves).
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
Best grandma ever. The way she can still pull off Son Gohan/Son Goten, and especially the main character Son Goku, despiste her old age leaves me speechless.
Happy Birhtday Nozawa-sama!
I know this should go in the power level thread, but since I don't want to double-post over there, I'd like your thoughts on the following updated lists on the power level of the fighters in all of Dragonball's major arcs. I'll keep each arc to a maximum of something like 10 to 15 warriors.
Not going into estimations and actual numbers and figures, and I'll obviously refrain from including any non-canon, Movie characters and villains.
Piccolo Daimao arc:
1 - Goku
2 - Piccolo Daimao (young)
3 - Piccolo Daimao (old)
4 - Drum
5 - Tenshinhan
6 - Goku (vs Piccolo Daimao first time)
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Tambourine
9 - The average son of Piccolo Daimao
10 - Cymbal
11 - Muten Roshi
12 - Mutaito-sama
Piccolo Jr. arc:
1 - Goku (without weighted clothing)
2 - Piccolo
3 - Kami
4 - Mr. Popo
5 - Tenshinhan
6 - Krillin
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Yamcha
Saiya-jin arc:
1 - Vegeta (Oozaru)
2 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x4)
3 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x3)
4 - Vegeta
5 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x2)
6 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x1)
7 - Gohan (Oozaru)
8 - Goku (full power in base form)
9 - Goku (suppressed Ki in base form)
10 - Nappa
11 - Gohan (Masenko against Nappa)
12 - Piccolo (full power against Nappa)
13 - Tenshinhan (Kikoho against Nappa)
14 - Piccolo (second Makankosappo against Raditz)
15 - Krillin (full power against Nappa)
Freeza arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - 100% fourth form Freeza
3 - 70% fourth form Freeza
4 - 50% fourth form Freeza
5 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x20)
6 - 33% fourth form Freeza
7 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x10)
8 - Third form Freeza
9 - Goku (base against Freeza)
10 - Second form Freeza
11 - Vegeta (after final Zenkai)
12 - Piccolo (after fusing with Nail)
13 - First form Freeza
14 - Vegeta (against Jeice and Freeza)
15 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x3 against Ginyu)
Jinzouningen arc:
1 - #16
2 - #17
3 - #18
4 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
7 - King Cold
8 - Freeza (on Earth)
9 - Piccolo
10 - Dr. Gero
11 - #19
12 - Gohan
13 - Tenshinhan
14 - Krillin
15 - Yamcha
Cell arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
2 - Perfect form Cell (after explosion and Zenkai)
3 - Perfect form Cell (using all of his power)
4 - Perfect form Cell
5 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan
7 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Trunks
8 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
9 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks
10 - Piccolo (at the Cell Games)
11 - Semi-perfect Cell
12 - #16
13 - Imperfect Cell (after absorbing millions of humans)
14 - Piccolo (after fusing with Kami)
15 - #17
Majin Buu arc:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Ultimate Gohan
6 - Huge Buu (after absorbing the strongest of the Kaioshin)
7 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
8 - Super Buu
9 - Kid Buu
10 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
12 - Evil Buu
13 - Majin Buu
14 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
15 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta
Beerus arc/BoG:
1 - Whis
2 - Vados
3 - Beerus
4 - Champa
5 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with power of all others at the first attempt of the ritual)
7 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (with power boost after Beerus slaps Bulma)
8 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
9 - Ultimate Gohan
10 - Gotenks
11 - Majin Buu
12 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
13 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
14 - Piccolo
15 - #18
Freeza arc/Fukkatsu no F:
1 - Whis
2 - Vados
3 - Beerus
4 - Champa
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
7 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
8 - Saiya-jin beyond God Goku
9 - Saiya-jin beyond God Vegeta
10 - Fourth form Freeza (after four-month training)
11 - First form Freeza (after four-month tranining)
12 - Ultimate Gohan
13 - Piccolo
This was kind of hastily done. Any thoughts or potential discussions would be welcome.
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buutenks wrote:
Wow,long post and surprisingly i read it all.
I've been both criticized and acclaimed for my way of posting. I repeat myself a lot, I almost always write huge amounts of text, I address numerous issues with carefully-thought concepts within the same post, etc. Some like it, some don't. I'm glad to know you read the entire thing, I believe most do despite the enormity of my posts.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Thank you 1,000 times over for 2 reasons:
1 is that your Buu powers are on-point (though personally I believe SSJ3 Goku could take on Super Buu, but whatevs). You have no idea, there's an entire section of the Z fanbase that FIRMLY BELIEVE:
SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.
Those people tick me off.
Secondly, thank you for putting Golden Freeza above Goku/Vegeta. Again, there's a huge portion of fans who believe, "Freeza was never truly a threat.", because they didn't want to pay attention to the film and not realize Freeza was losing power. They thought Goku could've won the entire time if he wanted to. And there's tons of fans who believe Vegeta > Goku because of that scene where Vegeta turned God and pummeled Freeza, despite the fact that Freeza by this point was heavily battle-wourn and running heavily low on power.
But again, thank you for being one of the smart ones.
Well, the three particular comparisons you're referring need to be taken and discussed in a different light, each of them.
To be honest with you, when I made one or two lists not too long ago I deliberately chose to put Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin God Goku above Golden Freeza because they ultimately beat him, but that didn't mean I wasn't aware of the fact that, at its peak, Golden Freeza's power was beyond theirs. The fact that they ultimately beat him, both of them (coupled with the fact that I kind of refuse to have Freeza reach a level of power beyond even the kind of strength that puts Goku and Vegeta in the same/close to the same tier as Beerus and Whis) led me to do that before. This time, I adapted it.
There's absolutely no way Super Saiya-jin Gotenks is above Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, regardless of whether the latter is using all of his power or not, or whether he's dead or not, etc. What COULD be argued is whether Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is above Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku; all we have to compare and base our positions on regarding this is the fact that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks appeared to have the upper hand against Super Buu just before the Fusion time ran out, but on the other hand we don't really get to see Goku fighting that same version of Super Buu in his Super Saiya-jin 3 state, do we? He admits he can't beat even the weakest form of Super Buu (with no-one absorbed) when they're inside his body, but at that time he's in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, for some reason he doesn't undergo the SSJ3 transformation. It's hard to know or estimate if SSJ3 Goku would be able to be beat the weakest version of Super Buu, but taking into account that Ultimate Gohan absolutely thrashed him, and since I put Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku on par with Ultimate Gohan at his peak when he shows up, it's only a matter of logic to imply and assume that SSJ3 Goku would be able to beat Super Buu. But then again, when Super Buu is undergoing the transformation process after Vegeta rips fat Majin Buu from his system, Goku does say that Kid Buu is someone they might just do something about, displaying a level of relief that wasn't present before when he fought Super Buu, which again just makes it even more complicated to know or estimate just by how much each of the versions of Super/Kid Buu is the strongest. This debate will probably never end, as official info will most likely never be released on the matter.
Yeah, although I'm a hardcore Vegeta fan and had orgasms when I saw him beat the sh** out of Freeza in Fukkatsu no F taking personal revenge after decades of humiliation, I think that the mere fact that it is Vegeta who beats Freeza and even causes him to revert to his regular fourth form doesn't signify that SSJGSSJ Vegeta is stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku. By the time Vegeta intervenes and has his long awaited go at Freeza, finally taking turns with Goku, Freeza was already weakened and unable to sustain the enormous level of power he had had access to minutes prior when he got the upper hand against Goku. I would say that, if Goku continued to battle Freeza instead of getting pierced through the heart and giving his fighting place and time to Vegeta, Goku would do to Freeza just exactly what Vegeta did (although not in that badass, straight manner, of course, but that has to do with personality and approach to fighting, not power). I would say SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta are exactly on par with each other, and the same goes for their respective Saiya-jin beyond God stages. This means that FINALLY Vegeta HAS caught up with Goku, surpassed and skipped a number of fighters who were stronger than him during the Majin Buu and Beerus arcs, and gained his place as equal, if not superior, to Goku, and close to Beerus, Whis, Champa and Vados. Vegeta's instance of skipping so many fighters and gaining so much of a power-up in Fukkatsu no F isn't even comparable to Freeza; Vegeta's previous strongest stage was a "mere" Super Saiya-jin 2, which was outclassed as early as in the Majin Buu arc, whereas Freeza went from a complete weakling (regardless of whether we're talking about his first form or his absolute maximum 100% usage of power) from his Namek times, when compared to so many fighters and stages throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, to a serious menace even to the stages Goku and Vegeta just reached, which put them close to Beerus and Whis. It's the very definition of skyrocketing.
sintzu wrote:
I'd put Ssj2 Goku&Vegeta on the same level during the Buu arc.
Yeah, I honestly believe that when they fight early in the Majin Buu arc in their respective Super Saiya-jin 2 stages they're exactly on par with each other. I just deliberately wanted to set a space in the ranking/list for one fighter only, so even if the next is just the same as the one that comes before/above him, I just randomly chose one to go above the other.
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It's kind of funny and interesting that the recent stuff they've thrown our way (BoG, Fukkastu no F, DBSuper) touched on material which hadn't been discussed for over a decade, and actually closer to two decades, namely Goku's power (in his base form or in his Super Saiya-jin form) when compared to Freeza on Namek.
All of a sudden we find ourselves discussing just how the power of someone the likes of Freeza in his old Namek days, not to mention the rest of the comparisons, lists and rankings made of the most recently introduced characters and stages.
If you look at it, Freeza is so charismatic a villain in the franchise that in EVERYTHING they released anime or manga-wise after 11 years of inactivity (2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Fukkastu no F and DBSuper) that he's either mentioned, seen in visual displays or, in fact, have an entire Movie dedicated entirely to him, featuring an unprecedented increase in power (so great that it is still a little hard to believe or grasp, in fact). Besides, the recent (and utterly successful) introduction of Beerus into the franchise led to the further establishment of links between not only Beerus and previously unexplained events involving the Kaioshin and Kaiou-sama, but also with the Saiya-jin and Freeza himself. One could argue about their obvious similarities here and there, but forcibly matching his degree of power to his intended degree of protagonism in this full-fledged return can pose some issues: I mean, Freeza went from someone who was below any regular Super Saiya-jin, episodes later any regular Super Saiya-jin was easily beated by #16, #17, #18, Piccolo or Cell, Cell was smashed by Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, his son his even more powerful than him but is no match for Cell in his perfect form; it takes Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan to finish Cell off, but in the Majin Buu arc even Goku and Vegeta, as Super Saiya-jin 2 themselves, and beyond Gohan at the Cell Games, are completely outmatched by Gotenks, Vegitto, Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, and then all of these are outmatched by Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta - after ALL of this, after so many years of constant fighting, development and achievement of new transformation and insane amounts of power by so many different warriors, good and evil, Freeza trains for four months and all of a sudden he skips it all and skyrockets to the level and tier of Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta.
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Sodhi wrote:
Gmez9 wrote:
Super manga of course is canon. But as for the anime, its an iffy thing. Partially canon perhaps if that's even a term.
This is not true at all. Super is more canon than the manga. All manga is doing is promoting the anime. That's the reason it skips sop much stuff.
We've become used throughout the release of DB and DBZ to put the manga above the anime in terms of "canonness", as the anime is an adaptation of the manga, which is the original material, and the anime is constantly packed with partial or entire episodes and even full arcs worth of filler material.
If this still applies, then the manga takes precedence over the anime, so whatever happens in the anime which isn't shown in the manga necessarily needs to be considered filler material, but things are changing, now we're getting stuff which IS in the manga and isn't - as of yet - in the anime (Champa's and Vados' appearances and interactions with other characters, most notably). One other thing which is changing is the fact that we've never had to deal with a retelling of two Movies in the same exact circumstances (with only minor adaptations and changes here and there) in a new TV series of episodes just 2 years and a few months after they were created and release, and for some time some of us even had trouble trying to figure out just which version was the one to be taken as a direct canon continuation of DBZ's Majin Buu arc, even involving discussions over time placements, etc.
All of this begs the question which has been asked more than once: was it the right decision to go and dedicate the first two arcs, and the first 25 to 30 episodes, of the first TV series in 18 years to retell two recently released Movies in the same exact circumstances? I have my own positions on the matter and I've expressed them before, but I'd like to see yours.
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buutenks wrote:
And one episode for z fighters?Thats way to low,i wanna see 2-3 episodes of them beating the crap out of those minions.
Two or three episodes of Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo (along with Tenshinhan, Krillin and Muten Roshi) beating weaklings with a power level of probably less than 1.000? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely approve bringing back some of the old members of the team (ones much more powerful than the others, with the difference between Gohan and Piccolo and Tenshinhan and Krillin being absolutely immense) and give them their proper respectful fighting time, but that's it, you can't really realistically expect them to stretch that thing for two to three episodes, that won't happen.
The fighting we're talking about looked awesome in Fukkatsu no F visually-wise and choreography-wise, but no amount of weakling Freeza underlings will ever be a menace for the likes of Ultimate Gohan or Piccolo, at least not enough for stretching the conflict for more than, say, one full episode. Literally, Gohan or Piccolo could very well wipe out the entire army with ONE martial arts move or a Ki blast if they wanted, given the amount of power they have gained by this point after so many years and arcs. We're talking about completely different dimensions of power altogether. The introduction of a Freeza army served the purpose of paying homage to the typical charismatic early Freeza days, with an army of thousands of soldiers, and it also, at the same time, simultaneously served the purpose of giving Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Jaco and Muten Roshi the screen, fighting time they deserve given their history in the franchise. Since none of them apparently can take on the newly super-powered-up Freeza, they need to wait for Goku and Vegeta and at least do their part in wiping out all of those underlings.
buutenks wrote:
And sisame vs piccolo.Well i take it that its simply inconsistent that sisame is mentioned to be on the same level as zarbon and dodoria and that he;s simply close to Piccolo in power.I also enjoyed the little fight they had in ROF movie hehe.
You need to take into account that being "close to Piccolo in power" at this point implies that Shisami is far, far stronger than Freeza using 100% of his power, any regular Super Saiya-jin or #16, #17 and #18. That's how much stronger Piccolo got throughout the Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs. I highly doubt a mere underling of Freeza's (and of Sorbet's) could come even close to something like that. That's one of the things they need to fix in the Freeza arc within DBSuper when compared to Fukkatsu no F: Shisami should in no way and under no circumstances pose any sort of threat to the likes of the current Piccolo, regardless of how tired or out-of-focus Piccolo could be, if that's the explanation some would resort to. But that's just me.
buutenks wrote:
And gohan one hit koing him while in ssj was nice.Or ssj2,hard to tell.
It's been discussed to death, actually, but we have several hints that make it possible to substantiate that Gohan has lost either entirely or partially his level of power of his Ultimate form (nor the ability, only the level of power); at least, in his base form, it doesn't even compare to what he displayed when he showed up to thrash Super Buu. Given Gohan's trademark lack of training, it could be argued that he lost part of the entirety of that power and went back to his previous strongest stage, Super Saiya-jin 2. It's unclear in Fukkatsu no F if he goes Super Saiya-jin or SSJ2 just to beat Shisami, but, again, how the hell would an underling like Shisami present enough of a challenge or menace to force Gohan to go Ultimate or Super Saiya-jin 2 to KO him? If Shisami is indeed THAT strong, and that's really saying A LOT, then after Freeza's army dispersed after his defeat on Namek, throughout these years they must have found some way to increase the power of particularly gifted warriors by insane amounts. If Shisami, on the other hand, is indeed comparable to Zarbon or Dodoria, we should take into account that Zarbon/Dodoria are nothing compared to Namek-era Freeza, Namek-era Freeza is NOTHING compared to the current Piccolo, and the current Piccolo is NOTHING compared to a Super Saiya-jin 2, so I would really need and welcome some clarification on the Piccolo + Gohan vs Shisami fight in the Freeza arc when the episodes come out.
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Doctor. wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
So would you guys say that Freeza is the first villain in the series to be the main villain twice?
Piccolo was the main villain twice.
In a way, yes, more than a son, he's the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, and they both have their own arcs in the later stages of DB separately dedicated to them. However, if we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo to be two entirely separate entities, then yeah, Freeza could be considered to be the main menace and villain protagonist of a main arc throughout DB, DBZ and DBSuper.
All of this is, of course, refraining from including the Movies and other non-canon material in the equation, otherwise Cooler or Brolly, just for example, would apply.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Retan wrote:
Also Vados says she's stronger then Whis.
Of course she did. Because why would she say that Whis is stronger? It's a pride thing. Mind you, they haven't seen each other in a thousand years. Whis reminds her of this, and says he's been training since then.
Until we get to see them engaging in actual battle, which is a far-fetched scenario (it's much more likely to see Beerus actually fighting Champa, in fact) we'll have nothing on which to base ourselves to state which one of the two is stronger. Vados could indeed be slightly above Vados or the other way around, or they could be exactly on par with each other. What does seem very plausible a scenario is that Beerus is above Champa.
It's interesting to see that both duos of brothers have an uneasy relationship and quite a lot of apparent rivalry going on between them. I bet all of us would cheer for the Beerus + Whis duo if any type of conflict occurs, since we've already embraced Beerus, and indeed Whis, to some degree, as part of the franchise and grown fond of them.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Retan wrote:
Also Vados says she's stronger then Whis.
Of course she did. Because why would she say that Whis is stronger? It's a pride thing. Mind you, they haven't seen each other in a thousand years. Whis reminds her of this, and says he's been training since then.
Until we get to see them engaging in actual battle, which is a far-fetched scenario (it's much more likely to see Beerus actually fighting Champa, in fact) we'll have nothing on which to base ourselves to state which one of the two is stronger. Vados could indeed be slightly above Vados or the other way around, or they could be exactly on par with each other. What does seem very plausible a scenario is that Beerus is above Champa.
It's interesting to see that both duos of brothers have an uneasy relationship and quite a lot of apparent rivalry going on between them. I bet all of us would cheer for the Beerus + Whis duo if any type of conflict occurs, since we've already embraced Beerus, and indeed Whis, to some degree, as part of the franchise and grown fond of them.
Doctor. wrote:
And who's to say Vados wasn't training since then as well? Not to mention Whis says she's the one who trained him. I think it's heavily implied that Vados is at least a bit stronger, like it's implied, but not outright stated, that Beerus is stronger than Champa.
Again, just because you trained someone at some point it doesn't mean you're automatically forever above them in terms of power. Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami and Kaiou-sama all trained Goku and he soon surpassed all of them. I don't see the argument of her having trained Whis as definite proof or even strong implication that she must be, or is probably above Whis. We'll most likely never know, the only way to know for sure is if official info was released, or if they fought each other, neither of which seems plausible at least for now (in fact, I don't see the latter happening ever at all).
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Captain Space wrote:
Preface: I'm aware this is quite off-topic, so I'm happy to discuss this in another thread.
My only problems with your logic, MaGyunia, are that:
1. You say SSJ Gotenks can't be above SSJ3 Goku...just because. Is there an actual reason?
2. You interpret Goku's statement that he can't beat Super Buu as referring only to his SSJ2, which doesn't make too much sense considering he can very easily go SSJ3 (and previously did so against multiple forms of Buu), but your main reason is that it's the only way to justify him as being able to beat Super Buu in SSJ3. And you think he can do that because you think his SSJ3 is equal-ish to mystic Gohan. And you think that...again...just because. (Also this contradicts with your actual list in that you have Gohan listed significantly above Goku, as he should be, but then here you say they're equal...?)
3. You admit Gotenks was about to beat Super Buu, i.e. Gotenks definitely outclassed Buu, but you still have Buu above Gotenks, which seems a bit contradictory.
You might have noticed that I specified at the end of the post you're referring to, with the list, that it was hastily done and was meant only and mainly to generate a discussion (although in the wrong thread, for the also specified reasons). Of course my ranking, especially in the Majin Buu arc, is subject to interpretation and arguments which are years-long and have been going on with no definite conclusion since forever, and of course my list contains debatable specifications. When you go deeper into it, you find that the list you just made contains inconsistencies when it comes to logic, as you pointed out in your second point and third points. Saying Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is definitely below Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is about on par with Ultimate Gohan when he shows up to thrash Super Buu is a matter of estimation, neither I nor you nor anybody else can say one way or another for sure.
Anyway, I could continue a debate on that list and the problems with the logic presented in the following post, and I was successful in generating some replies, but I'll take on those particular issues you've pointed out later on and in the proper thread.
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Doctor. wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Again, just because you trained someone at some point it doesn't mean you're automatically forever above them in terms of power. Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami and Kaiou-sama all trained Goku and he soon surpassed all of them. I don't see the argument of her having trained Whis as definite proof or even strong implication that she must be, or is probably above Whis. We'll most likely never know, the only way to know for sure is if official info was released, or if they fought each other, neither of which seems plausible at least for now (in fact, I don't see the latter happening ever at all).
Goku proved himself to be superior to those that taught him. Before he proved himself, it was right to assume he was still inferior. Before F, I never saw someone saying Roshi was stronger than Karin, most people just said Karin was stronger, why? Because he was the one who trained Roshi. And since Roshi never proved otherwise, there was no argument that one could make to have Roshi above Karin. Until it's proven otherwise, then what's the problem with having Vados superior to Whis if that's what the manga implies? I don't see any argument to support otherwise besides not wanting her to be that strong, for some reason.
I'm not saying she's weaker or stronger than Whis, and certainly not saying that Whis is definitely stronger; I'm just saying that just because she trained Whis at some point and she boasts she's above him is no good solid reason to base yourself, theoretically all scenarios are equally plausible: either she's slightly above him, or he's slightly above her, or they're exactly on par. For the reasons I specified, we'll probably never really know for sure. An actual fight or official info, either within the episodes themselves or provided by official sources, are the only ways to specify just how one warrior compares to another.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Retan wrote:
I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.
LMAO Did you just call me a sexist?
He might have been saying that to me, actually, as I've conceived a list just hours ago and I put Whis at number 1 and Vados at number 2, and I could have very well have chosen to do it the other way around, I just deliberately wanted one spot for one warrior and had to decide and went for Whis. If it was intended towards me, let me assure you - and I've done this once a few days ago - that whatever position I estimate Vados to be in regarding any other warrior in the franchise has NOTHING to do with the fact she's a lady. It never even crossed my mind.
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Araki wrote:
Retan wrote:
I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.
LOL this is hilarious.
No one can tell for sure she's really stronger, because Whis objected, and if she was stronger at one point, that happened 1000 years ago, and probably because she is older. That scene was supposed to leave it up in the air.
Yeah, and sorry Doctor., but that's just why "heavily implied" is too strong to apply under these current circumstances we've been discussing just now.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Also, this is an entirely different than what we're experiencing with Beerus and Champa. To be honest with you? Absolutely nothing has been "heavily implied". People are merely jumping to conclusions. Something being "heavily implied" means that there is a source that is basically saying something is some way. There is nothing like that for this. And no, I'm sorry, the scene in the manga of Champa "sneaking around" is not, nor was it "heavily implied", as being a way to prove that Champa is weaker than Beerus.
Seriously, I don't get that logic. Not wanting to get into a fight that would risk destroying everything (including what he's looking for), is now a sign of weakness? No. He simply wants to avoid something that is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. If he can get the job done /without/ Beerus noticing, even if he was stronger, it's still a better course of action to take. That doesn't make him weak. That makes him a great tactician.
What are you talking about? Vados comments on Champa's physique and, yes, heavily implies Champa is weaker. The only way it could get any clearer would be if she outright said Beerus was stronger.
...no. She was basically hitting him with a compliment and a joke at the same time. Who would win in a fight? A man who hasn't eaten in weeks? Literally nothing but skin and bones? Or a bigger guy with tons of fat? That's what she was implying, I believe. Saying, "Hey. He's fatter, so he must be stronger." Compliment. Harmful joke. One sentence.
Besides, commenting on a warrior's physique in the Dragonball world has absolutely no significance when it comes to measuring their actual power. One of the most basic principles of the franchise is that one's physique or appearance has NOTHING to do with how powerful they might be, and that just makes sense, as the way the warriors are able to destroy entire planets and fight the way the do is through training, transformations and especially becoming experts in Ki manipulation, which is a step further, or a ramification of the overall martial arts expertise.
I don't see this particular discussion getting anywhere, we obviously agree that we have absolutely no solid way to substantiate our position on how Vados compares to Whis for the reasons specified in all of these posts. Using "heavily implied" is going too far and I just think, for the reasons I've already stated, it doesn't apply at all in these circumstances.
Would be nice to move on to a different discussion by now.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
How is one stronger because they're fat? Naturally, the one with the better build, the more athletic of the two, should be the stronger one. Beerus even laughs at the idea of him and Champa engaging in battle.
What? How is being skin and bones having a "better build"? You'd have /no/ build at that point, because you're skin at bones. Think of it this way: Who could lift more? A fat guy or a skin-and-bones guy? Being fat, in and of itself, implies that you naturally have more muscle than someone skinny.
Also, Beerus laughing at the idea of the two of them fighting could be him being prideful and thinking they're stronger. Or something else. A multitude of reasons. I think that we're jumping to conclusions way too fast and not thinking about it enough. It's the reason why we were wrong about almost every assumption we've made so far about both Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F. I think Toriyama has proved time and time again that he can be very unpredictable.
Again, what does the build, physique or appearance of a warrior have ANYTHING to do with how powerful they might be in the Dragonball universe? Obviously that comment on Champa's build was a harmless joke, nothing more.
Sometimes it's better to postulate no scenarios at all than to hastily estimate that one warrior has a strong probability of being above another based on virtually nothing at all. "Heavily implied" is just going to far, and sorry about that, Doctor.
We really have no strong, solid basis to estimate how Vados compares to Whis, either they fight each other (far-fetched scenario) or official info on the subject either by a character or by an official source is released, otherwise saying she must be, or has a strong probability or being above Whis just because she trained him in the past and said she was is no good reason to substantiate the claim that she probably is above Whis, for the reasons specified before in this particular discussion.
Please move on, guys, no definitive conclusion will be reached on this subject in these circumstances.
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Are you guys still over this? Everything because a recently-introduced character said she was stronger than another? I guess it's pointless to repeat what I've been saying in my last posts in this thread. End the discussion, this gets none of us nowhere, nor can it.
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Theoretically, both the manga and the anime are canon in this very particular case. None of what was present in the manga and wasn't in the anime means it didn't happen, and the other way around (this doesn't even actually apply, as, unlike the trend throughout DB and DBZ, a lot of what WAS present in the anime was not in the manga, you got entire episodes partially or fully splattered with filler material, and even entire arcs).
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Doctor. wrote:
It can change, I'm not saying it's definitive. I'm saying that we don't really have any reason to doubt Vados' statement as of yet.
We have absolutely NO reason to contradict her statement NOR to believe it. How many times do we have to repeat the same reasons for how inconsequential and pointless this discussion is?
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raulvalente wrote:
I would say that Whis is stronger than Vados because, even if Vados trained him 1,000 years ago... look at the Gods they live with.
Beerus likes fighting, even if he's lazy sometimes. It doesn't seem to me that Champa would be a God who likes fighting and training, so I think the long period of time that Whis spent with Beerus training improved his skills and made him stronger than Vados, who I think that didn't particularly train in the last 1,000 years.
Does this make any sense? :lol:
The outcome of the results of Whis' and Vados' training of their respective Hakaishins can be one way to measure their teaching skills, not necessarily their power.
But comparing Beerus and Champa, instead of Whis and Vados, I do believe that the schemes Champa undergoes, as opposed to Beerus straight-forward, proud way of approaching his goals makes me think he's got at least a much more admirable personality than Champa, regardless of his laziness and his instances of destroying more stuff than he's supposed to over trivial matters, at his whims. We've all grown fond of Beerus and, to some degree, Whis. I hope the Beerus + Whis duo turns out victorious over the Vados + Champa duo in whatever conflict they get involved in against each other.
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Are you having fun with my essays in this and especially other threads, Araki? :P
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Speaking of "canonness", I've always considered whatever doesn't contradict or create or generate inconsistencies with the manga's sequence of events in terms of timeline is canon (an example being Garlic Jr.'s arc, or Movie 9). I know it's a controversial view, and might even be considered inaccurate or incorrect, but it's just one of many ways to look at the whole "is this canon?" debate. In this particular case, DBSuper's anime hasn't shown events which the manga version did, which is a direct contradiction with what we were used to in DB and DBZ, in which it was the other way around, the anime was based on the manga, which was the original work, and its episodes were splattered with partial or entirely filler material, not to mention entire arcs (not to mention GT, which is an entire non-canon TV series).
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Don't double-post. It's against the acceptable rules.
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Kamiccolo9 wrote:
So is mini-modding. If your entire post consists of informing someone else about the rules, without adding anything to the discussion, it's best to just use the report button.
Quite in fact, as you may know yourself, my posts usually consist of huge amounts of well-conceived texts covering many different themes within the same post, and I've been commended on adding quite a lot to the discussions. When I broke the rules (I myself double-posted several times months ago) at the beginning everyone was criticizing me and reminding me about the rules, I thought it wasn't that big a deal and I was just trying to help.
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Nice episode altogether, but seems like the next one will be pretty much focused on Goku's version of what Vegeta just went through. Extremely Vegeta-dedicated episode altogether.
Honorable mentions:
- Goku's interactions with Krillin, it's actually been a while since they spent time with each other, being best friends and all
- Vegeta's moment in the hills, again, like in last week's episode, reminding one of his typical trademark lonely moments to ponder on his power in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs (a degree of Vegeta seriousness that always ends up being followed by Vegeta silliness in DBSuper)
- Vegeta using "kisama" to refer to even Whis, but then using "omae" after Whis tells him he can show him the method to surpass Goku
- Vegeta not even using Beerus-sama anymore, just plain Beerus, more than once, when telling Whis to bring Beerus with him so they can fight (what was he expecting after so little time had passed since he got a major beating from him?)
- Final confirmation that Vegeta's way of getting Whis to train him at Beerus' place before Kakarotto to surpass him is to beat Bulma at cooking for Whis. Seems like he'll do just about anything to accomplish his now regained DBZ arcs-long full obsession to surpass not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus
Can't change or shake the sensation that we're getting far too many Vegeta silly moments. They're overdoing it both with Piccolo and with Vegeta, but I guess we need to take into account the generation DBSuper is actually aimed at, this isn't the 80's or the 90's anymore.
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Pannaliciour wrote:
MaGyunia: please somebody call 911 he did a dubbelpost
It's actually spelled "double-post".
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There was no thread for this episode when it aired, locked or unlocked, and when I went to sleep there still wasn't, so I posted my immediate thoughts on the episode in another thread. Here they go:
Nice episode altogether, but seems like the next one will be pretty much focused on Goku's version of what Vegeta just went through. Extremely Vegeta-dedicated episode altogether.
Honorable mentions:
- Goku's interactions with Krillin, it's actually been a while since they spent time with each other, being best friends and all
- Vegeta's moment in the hills, again, like in last week's episode, reminding one of his typical trademark lonely moments to ponder on his power in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs (a degree of Vegeta seriousness that always ends up being followed by Vegeta silliness in DBSuper)
- Vegeta using "kisama" to refer to even Whis, but then using "omae" after Whis tells him he can show him the method to surpass Goku
- Vegeta not even using Beerus-sama anymore, just plain Beerus, more than once, when telling Whis to bring Beerus with him so they can fight (what was he expecting after so little time had passed since he got a major beating from him?)
- Final confirmation that Vegeta's way of getting Whis to train him at Beerus' place before Kakarotto to surpass him is to beat Bulma at cooking for Whis. Seems like he'll do just about anything to accomplish his now regained DBZ arcs-long full obsession to surpass not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus
Can't change or shake the sensation that we're getting far too many Vegeta silly moments. They're overdoing it both with Piccolo and with Vegeta, but I guess we need to take into account the generation DBSuper is actually aimed at, this isn't the 80's or the 90's anymore.
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There was no thread for this episode when it aired, locked or unlocked, and when I went to sleep there still wasn't, so I posted my immediate thoughts on the episode in another thread. Here they go:
Nice episode altogether, but seems like the next one will be pretty much focused on Goku's version of what Vegeta just went through. Extremely Vegeta-dedicated episode altogether.
Honorable mentions:
- Goku's interactions with Krillin, it's actually been a while since they spent time with each other, being best friends and all
- Vegeta's moment in the hills, again, like in last week's episode, reminding one of his typical trademark lonely moments to ponder on his power in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs (a degree of Vegeta seriousness that always ends up being followed by Vegeta silliness in DBSuper)
- Vegeta using "kisama" to refer to even Whis, but then using "omae" after Whis tells him he can show him the method to surpass Goku
- Vegeta not even using Beerus-sama anymore, just plain Beerus, more than once, when telling Whis to bring Beerus with him so they can fight (what was he expecting after so little time had passed since he got a major beating from him?)
- Final confirmation that Vegeta's way of getting Whis to train him at Beerus' place before Kakarotto to surpass him is to beat Bulma at cooking for Whis. Seems like he'll do just about anything to accomplish his now regained DBZ arcs-long full obsession to surpass not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus
Can't change or shake the sensation that we're getting far too many Vegeta silly moments. They're overdoing it both with Piccolo and with Vegeta, but I guess we need to take into account the generation DBSuper is actually aimed at, this isn't the 80's or the 90's anymore.
Retan wrote:
Really enjoyed this episodes antics, LoL Vegeta is appparently much more talented when trying to defend people, then doing something for himself. :lol: Also I wonder if Vegeta will pull ahead of goku for a bit, but more likely will probably say Whis hasn't taught him anything yet, until Goku gets there, oh well.
Yeah, I thought about that myself, this time it appears Vegeta IS ahead of Goku (if not in terms of power, at least in terms of training and moving forward with his evolution, although Goku will soon catch up, obviously). The only time I can think of instantly of Vegeta being above Goku in terms of power after they fight for the first time is when he comes out of the RoSaT and is obviously stronger than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, but that's just because he went there first with Goku's approval.
irreality wrote:
How is it filler at all? Ok, Goku in the field with Krillin is just fun reminiscing, but it moves Krillin's character forward into his FnF personality. It is not filler because it is part of the progress of the story. Bulma offering food to Whis, Vegeta wanting to train with Whis, and convincing him via cup ramen, all these are crucial parts of FnF and U6 arcs. Arguably seeing Goku farming is unnecessary or Kaioshin talking about Beetles, but even that were part of set pieces (champa foreshadowing, why Goku isn't with Whis yet).
When I think of filler, it is stuff that basically has no impact on the story. Sure, none of these plot points are rocket science and could probably be skipped and people would "figure it out". But they aren't filler: they are part of the larger story, and it bridges the gap between BoG and FnF, answering some questions people had.
We actually discussed this yesterday in another thread extensively. I think that the most accepted (not official) definition of "filler" is whatever material isn't in/based on the original work (the manga, in the case of DB and DBZ). In this case, we're getting events which happen are shown in the manga but aren't shown in the TV Series (Champa's and Vados' appearances and interactions with a few characters), which is the exact opposite of the way DB and DBZ used to work when they were being released, with the anime episodes being constantly filled partially or entirely with filler material, and even entire arcs.
One of the acceptable, although potentially incomplete, inaccurate or incorrect, definitions of "canon" is whatever doesn't necessarily contradict or create/generate plot holes or timeline inconsistencies with the main line/sequence of events present in the original work, in which case, and just for example's sake, the entire Garlic Jr. arc between Freeza and the Jinzouningen, as well as Movie 9, could be considered canon.
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Pantalones wrote:
That's because "base form" isn't a term used in the actual series, it's only used by fans.
By base form it's become, throughout the years, universally accepted within the fandom that it refers to a Saiya-jin's normal, non-Super Saiya-jin stage (and, for that matter, without using Kaio-Ken or any other potential power-enhancing technique either). The term will need to be reconsidered now that Goku (and Vegeta, for that matter) will have the power and abilities of Super Saiya-jin God without physically transforming into anything, so it's really debatable whether we should continue to use "base form" to refer to Goku's and Vegeta's non-physically-Super Saiya-jin-transformed states in Freeza's arc within DBSuper or in Fukaktsu no F. In fact, the correct term to refer to that particular stage (incorporation of SSJG's abilities and power even without physically transforming into anything) is Saiya-jin beyond God.
Regardless of the way Vegeta will achieve Super Saiya-jin God himself, either through the ritual or through any other method, I see it as a logical pre-requisite to go through the sequence of transformations and power-ups seen in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, as in: Super Saiya-jin God, then Saiya-jin beyond God, and finally Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. If Vegeta doesn't achieve, at some point, the SSJG stage just like Goku did, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to be able to reach the Saiya-jin beyond God stage, let alone the SSJGSSJ transformation.
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Araki wrote:
- Kuririn's request to Goku was indeed related to his decision to leave retirement behind and become a fighter again, as i predicted. I guess that's also why he decides to get work as a cop (after the timeskip next episode, he's doing it already).
I guess he, along with the rest of the gang that was present throughout the entirety, or most, of DB and DBZ's arcs, wants to at least keep up with his training and, to some degree, maintain their martial arts pride, much in the same way Tenshinhan has ALWAYS done, and unlike Krillin and Yamcha for quite a while in the second half of DBZ, most notably the Majin Buu arc. It was cool to see Goku finally interact with Krillin again one-on-one, we haven't seen that for a while, now that I think of it, and it was nice idea to dedicate a few minutes of the episodes to have them spend some time with each other, being best friends and all. Another great move to take advantage of the opportunity the fact this is a TV series presents. If they're careful enough with their planning, there's room and time for everyone, just the right amounts, unlike the somewhat rushed and out-of-nowhere (although obviously approved) appearances of Tenshinhan, Krillin and even Muten Roshi in the Movies, especially Fukkatsu no F. I guess we should be happy with the way they're managing the episodes' time to give the respectful, proper screen time to each character and their respective interactions with the main guys.
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Sorry about posting my first immediate thoughts right after watching the episode live yesterday in the wrong thread, but there was no thread for this week's episode yet when I wrote and it was only created after I had to to leave, by the way.
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Kishido wrote:
I predict Goku will go with him as well.
Basing ourselves on the preview for next weekend's episode, it seems we'll mostly deal with Goku's version of what Vegeta went through in yesterday's episode to set off to Beerus' planet to train with Whis.
Kishido wrote:
Still do not know how Vegeta will reach god level...
He has to. In order for it to make any sense, Vegeta will need to undergo the exact same sequence Goku did/will do, as in, reaching Super Saiya-jin God first of all (either through the ritual or potentially some other method), then incorporating the stage's abilities and power into his base form (Saiya-jin beyond God) and then going even further and developing another stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
In order for Vegeta to be able to reach Saiya-jin beyond God, let alone Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, he HAS to, at some point, on-screen or off-screen, reach Super Saiya-jin God himself, which I can only assume he did at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the Movies' version of events. I was actually hoping to see that on-screen along with some other particular events hinted at in the Movies. We'll have to see the episodes as they come out.
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Araki wrote:
You keep saying that like those scenes won't ever be shown in the anime, which i can't make sense of, when of course they will, and in more detail.
I was already sure the reason the manga covered them earlier was because it would entirely skip RoF, and now that's even more clear, after the Kaioshins mention the magical disappearance of two planets. This sequence was a set up for them to take notice of Champa and Valdos' move, scenes that almost definitely will take place during RoF.
Yeah, I know, it has to do with the pacing and with the fact the manga skipped the retelling of Fukkastu no F altogether. The Champa + Vados actions and interactions with the Kaioshin, etc., WILL be shown in the series sooner or later exactly as they were present in the manga, just not at the same timing.
By the way, expanding a little bit on the whole "filler" discussion, although it's widely and universally accepted that it refers to whatever material isn't present in the original work that the anime is based on, it still doesn't necessarily mean it did/doesn't "happen". We shouldn't confuse "filler" and "canon". Just because they show something in an episode (whether to splatter the episode to make its time in a hasty manner or to deliberately show some well-conceived and thought event) which wasn't present at all, or even hinted at, referenced or mentioend in the manga, it doesn't mean we should "erase" it from existence. What we SHOULD and MUST erase from existence is the non-canon material which directly contradicts the one and only main sequence, timeline and storyline and generates all kinds of plot holes and time inconsistencies, and that includes most (indeed, almost all) of the DBZ Movies and, with the recent Movies, Specials and TV series they've thrown our way, GT.
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lucas1603: kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: serio vou sentir mta sdd de vc
lucas1603: e durante esse tempo
lucas1603: q a bandai morra
yusuke: oi
yusuke:
yusuke: adeus
lucas1603: adeus
lucas1603:
lucas1603: finalmente vai chegar sabado
lucas1603: oi magyunia
MaGyunia: HEY
lucas1603: expectativas pro ep?
MaGyunia: muito focado no Freeza
MaGyunia: as cenas dele no inferno, a resurreição e talvez alguns flashbacks
MaGyunia: ou seja, o equivalente aos primeiros 5 ou 10 minutos do filme
lucas1603: tomara q mostra o treinamento dele já q no filme n mostrou
MaGyunia: neste episodio ainda n
MaGyunia: é mt cedo, talvez no próximo ou daqui a dois
lucas1603: tbm acho
lucas1603: talvez a luta do goku ssjdssj vai durar uns 5 eps no minimo
MaGyunia: se a luta entre o Goku SSJG e o Beerus durou 4 episódios
MaGyunia: e tendo em conta q a duração dessa luta no filme do Beerus e a luta contra o Freeza no ultimo filme é mais ou menos a mesma
MaGyunia: é capaz de ser mais ou menos uns 4 ou 5 episódios
MaGyunia: e espero q o Vegeta tenha mais algum tempo pra rebentar com o Freeza depois de o Goku ficar incapacitado
MaGyunia: no manga nada disto existe, eles passam logo pro Champa e a Vados
MaGyunia: dantes havia muito filler em DBZ q n tava no manga, agora ha cenas que tao no manga e não tão nos episódios
MaGyunia: ou melhor, n tão agora mas vao tar depois
lucas1603: ficou meio q acontrario agora
lucas1603: só acho q o champa vai treinar o freeza
MaGyunia: só vendo, mas nao acho
MaGyunia: o Freeza é um vilão a sério, um psicopata genocida
MaGyunia: acho q o Champa n vai treinar um tipo desses
MaGyunia: nem a Vados
lucas1603: quem vc acha que vai tar no time do bills?
MaGyunia: eles introduziram pela primeira vez o Champa e a Vados no fim do ultimo episodio porque já era tempo
MaGyunia: mas acho q n vai haver ligaçao nenhuma entre o Freeza e o Champa
MaGyunia: Goku, Vegeta, Gohan tão certos
MaGyunia: depois é a questão
MaGyunia: o Majin Buu é mais forte q todos os outros depois desses mas ta dormindo
MaGyunia: se o Gotenks for fundido so preenche uma vaga, e a outra é pro Piccolo
MaGyunia: senao deve ser Goten e Trunks
MaGyunia: ou seja, todos os Saiya-jins
lucas1603: goku, vegeta, majin-boo, picollo e n° 18
MaGyunia: embora eu ache que o Piccolo é mais forte que o Goten e o Trunks separados
MaGyunia: e a #18 também
lucas1603: quem falou q o picolo é mais fraco q o goten e o trunks separados?
MaGyunia: até o Gelton
MaGyunia: pra mim o Goten e o Trunks são bastante mais fracos q o #18 e ainda mais que o Piccolo
lucas1603: pra mim tbm
lucas1603: os dois são dez vezes mais fortes q o goten e o trunks
MaGyunia: o Piccolo ficou tão forte como o #17 e o #18 na saga do Cell depois de se fundir com o Kami, mas depois treinou ainda mais e ficou mais forte
MaGyunia: o Goten e o Trunks são Super Saiya-jins normais, como o Goku, o Trunks ou o Vegeta quando o estado apareceu
MaGyunia: e o Piccolo é muito mais forte do que isso
lucas1603: e o goten e trunks nunca treinaram antes da saga boo
lucas1603: como podem ser mais fortes
lucas1603: do q o picolo?
MaGyunia: o Freeza a 100% é mais fraco que o Goku SSJ, o Goku SSJ, o Trunks SSJ e o Vegeta SSJ são mais fracos que o #17 e #18, e o Piccolo chegou ao nível deles qd se fundiu, e depois ainda ficou mais forte
MaGyunia: naquela altura em que o Piccolo se fundiu com o Kami tava muito acima do Goku, Vegeta e Trunks
MaGyunia: durante uns episódios foi o mais forte dos bons
MaGyunia: mas é evidente que ta mt longe do nivel de poder dos mais fortes da saga do Buu
MaGyunia: aliás o Piccolo nem luta na saga toda do Buu
MaGyunia: o Goku, o Vegeta, o Gohan, o Gotenks, o Vegitto e todas as versões do Buu tão noutro nível muito superior
lucas1603: quando ele fundiu com kami sama, o piccolo era mais que o cell na primeira forma
MaGyunia: e agora o Beerus, o Champa, o Whis, a Vados, o Freeza e o Goku SSJG e o Vegeta SSJGSSJ e o Goku SSJGSSJ tão num nível ainda acima disso tudo
MaGyunia: sim, antes de o Cell absorver aqueles milhões de humanos todos
MaGyunia: era equivalente ao #17 e ao #18, ligeiramente inferior ao #16
lucas1603: verdade
MaGyunia: mas depois todos os Saiya-jin ascenderam a outros patamares de transformação e ultrapassaram-no e aos cyborgs, e na saga do Cell o Goku e o Gohan tão perto dele na forma perefita
MaGyunia: mas depois na saga do Buu o Vegeta e o Goku superaram já muito esse nível, especialmente o Goku com o SSJ3, e depois o Gohan quando treinou com o Kaioshin e o Gotenks SSJ3
MaGyunia: mas antes de aparecer o Beerus e o Whis e estes filmes recentes e a série o Vegitto era o mais forte da série toda de DBZ
lucas1603: é mesmo
MaGyunia: e de repente o Freeza passa de um nível de poder inferior a um SSJ normal dos tempos de Namek pra um nível capaz de rivalizar com o Goku SSJGSSJ
MaGyunia: passou as sagas todas em 4 meses de treino
lucas1603: e agora o vegeta normal é mais ou menos o mesmo nivel q o goku normal
lucas1603: vou sair daqui a pouquinho eu volto
MaGyunia: sim, e eu acho q isso só faz sentido se o Vegeta tiver chegado a SSJG por algum método e incorporado as capacidades e poder do estado como o Goku fez
MaGyunia: aliás, para o Vegeta conseguir chegar a SSJGSSJ mais tarde só faz sentido se ele tiver atingido SSJG primeiro
MaGyunia: e acho q n mostraram mas atingiu, nao foi é através do ritual
MaGyunia: agora finalmente o Goku e o Vegeta tão iguais, tanto na forma base como em SSJGSSJ, q ainda n foi mostrado no Super
lucas1603: voltei
lucas1603: vc acha que vai ter o final do Z no super?
MaGyunia: e o Vegeta SSJ2 na saga do Buu era inferior a muita gente, a todas as versões do Buu, ao Gohan, ao Goku SSJ3, ao Gotenks, ao Vegitto
MaGyunia: sinceramente nao sei, mas espero que não
MaGyunia: nunca gostei daqueles três últimos episódios do Z com o Uub
lucas1603: eu gosto um pouco deles
MaGyunia: acho que o Super vai acabar com a saga do sexto universo e o torneio
MaGyunia: mas depois vai haver mais
MaGyunia: filmes e/ou série
lucas1603: só não gosto do uub
MaGyunia: e aí já pode ser depois dessa altura
lucas1603: eu acho q o super não vai ter mais q 100 eps
lucas1603: por causa do sucesso no japão
lucas1603: vai ter*
MaGyunia: foram 15 pra recontar o filme do Beerus, mais uns 15 pra recontar o do Freeza, lá para o 35 ou 40 deve começar a saga do 6º universo
MaGyunia: e essa deve ter pelo menos 20 episódios
MaGyunia: se n for para além disso duvido que chegue até aos 100
lucas1603: vai ter mto mais q 100
MaGyunia: pra isso a saga do 6º universo tem que ser imensa como as sagas do Z ou então tem q haver mais história depois dessa saga
lucas1603: e ainda vai ter a parte das super esferas do dragão do 6° universo
MaGyunia: o torneio, o Champa, a Vados e as Super Dragon Balls faz tudo parte da saga do 6º universo
lucas1603: concerteza vai ter um filme do 6° universo e do champa
MaGyunia: o que a gente escreve nesse chat é gravado nalgum sítio ?
lucas1603: não sei
lucas1603: se apertar f5 maioria do que agnt escreveu vai ter sumido
MaGyunia: eu sei, e às vezes limpam tudo, mas será que fica gravado nalgum sítio ?
MaGyunia: ou é apagado para sempre ?
lucas1603: acho que é apagado pra sempre
MaGyunia: vou fazer a minha lista de poderes
MaGyunia: a partir da saga do Cell
MaGyunia: saga do Cell: 1- Gohan SSJ2, 2- Cell perfeito da explosão, 3- Cell perfeito usando todo o poder, 4- Cell perfeito, 5- Goku SSJ Full Power, 6- Gohan SSJ Full Power, 7- Trunks SSJ Dai San Dankai, 8- Vegeta SSJ Dai Ni Dankai, 9- Piccolo, 10- Cell semi-perfeito, 11- Cell imperfeito depois de absorber milhões de seres humanos, 12- #16, 13- Piccolo, 14- #17, 15- #18, 16- Cell imperfeito, 17- Vegeta SSJ, 18- Goku SSJ, 19- Trunks...
lucas1603: qual é mais forte bojack ou cell?
MaGyunia: saga do Buu: 1- Super Vegitto, 2- Vegitto, 3- Super Buu com Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks e Goten absorvidos, 4- Super Buu com Gotenks SSJ3 e Piccolo absorvidos, 5- Gohan, 6- Super Buu com Piccolo, Trunks e Goten absorvidos, 7- Super Buu, 8- Kid Buu, 9- Goku SSJ3, 10- Gotenks SSJ3, 11- Majin Buu, 12- Goku SSJ2, 13- Vegeta SSJ2, 14- Gohan SSJ2, 15- Dabla
MaGyunia: saga do Beerus: 1- Whis, 2- Beerus, 3- Goku SSJG, 3- Goku com poder de todos os outros SSJ, 4- Vegeta SSJ2 irritado, 5- Goku SSJ3, 6- Gohan, 7- Gotenks, 8- Majin Buu, 9- Goku SSJ2, 10- Vegeta SSJ2, 11- Piccolo, 12- #18
MaGyunia: saga do Freeza: 1- Whis, 2- Vados, 3- Beerus, 4- Champa, 5- Golden Freeza, 6- SSJGSSJ Goku, 7- SSJGSSJ Vegeta, 8- Goku normal com poderes SSJG, 9- Vegeta normal com poderes SSJG, 10- Gohan, 11- Piccolo
MaGyunia: acho que o Cell é superior na forma perfeita, mesmo sem usar todo o poder
MaGyunia: muito menos depois da explosão
lucas1603: o filme do bojack é um dos unicos que realmente tão na historia
MaGyunia: ou seja, a lista inteira seria: 1- Whis, 2- Vados, 3- Beerus, 4- Champa, 5- Golden Freeza, 6- SSJGSSJ Goku, 7- SSJGSSJ Vegeta, 8- Goku normal com poderes SSJG, 9- Vegeta normal com poderes SSJG, 10- Goku SSJG, 11- Goku com poder de todos os outros SSJ, 12- Super Vegitto, 13- Vegitto, 14- Super Buu com Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks e Goten absorvidos, 15- Super Buu com Gotenks SSJ3 e Piccolo absorvidos, 16- Vegeta SSJ2 irritado, ...
MaGyunia: a mensagem ficou a meio lol
MaGyunia: sim, o filme do Bojack é o único que não contradiz nada na série
MaGyunia: e acontece mesmo depois do Cell ser morto e antes de o Goku ir pro planeta do maior dos Kaious com o Kaiou
MaGyunia: aliás, o Bojack livra-se da magia dos Kaious precisamente porque o Kaiou do norte morreu quando o Cell explodiu, foi logo
lucas1603: acho que o ataque do dragão tbm não contradiz nada na serie
MaGyunia: depende de quando acontece
MaGyunia: como usam as Dragon Balls no filme, isso pode contradizer a utilização das bolas para fazer toda a gente esquecer do Majin Buu
MaGyunia: mas tirando isso também pode ter acontecido pouco depois da derrota do Kid Buu
lucas1603: nele o majin boo não aparece, pode ser naquele tempo que o majin boo tava trancado
MaGyunia: e o primeiro filme do Garlic Jr. também só não pode acontecer mesmo antes do Raditz aparecer porque o Krillin já conhece o Gohan no filme, enquanto na série fica surpreendido por saber que o Goku tem um filme, tirando isso podia ter acontecido pouco antes de o Raditz chegar
lucas1603: o resgate de raditz deve ter acontecido alguns dias antes do raditz chegar
lucas1603: gohan*
lucas1603: em que cidade vc mora em portugal?
lucas1603: falta uma hora pra live começar
MaGyunia: mas o Gelton ainda demora a entrar nao é ?
MaGyunia: eu posso sempre teorizar que o Krillin durante o filme do Garlic Jr. n sabia quem o Gohan era
MaGyunia: nada no filme indica que ele sabia quem era aquela criança
lucas1603: é mesmo
MaGyunia: por isso pode fazer sentido que tenha ficado surpreendido por saber q era o filho do Goku na ilha no início do Z
MaGyunia: eu moro no norte de portugal
lucas1603: no filme ele nem perguntou de quem o gohan era filho
MaGyunia: muito perto de espanha
MaGyunia: é isso
MaGyunia: mas portugal é minúsculo
MaGyunia: os países europeus sao muito poderosos mas geograficamente muito pequenos comparados com o brasil, por exemplo
MaGyunia: mas portugal nem é poderoso, portugal é dos paises mais pobres da europa, é uma vergonha
lucas1603: um tanto de país da europa cabe aqui no brasil
lucas1603: a frança é mais ou menos do tamanho do estado q eu moro
MaGyunia: olha o Gelton
lucas1603: começou
lucas1603: que que é isso?
MaGyunia: Gelton, quando puder responde a uma pergunta importante que tenho que te fazer antes de limpar o chat, se faz favor
lucas1603: que peixe é esse que eles tão vendendo?
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: esse é dos melhores lives da internet pra ver Super certo ?
MaGyunia: de toda a internet
lucas1603: certo
lucas1603: a pior live da internet pra ver super é a da kami sama explorer
MaGyunia: não conheço
MaGyunia: é brasileira ?
lucas1603: sim
MaGyunia: mas tem que haver lives de todos os países
MaGyunia: Dragonball é famoso em todo o mundo
lucas1603: é um site só de dragon ball
MaGyunia: eu uso o Kanzenshuu
lucas1603: oque é isso?
MaGyunia: supostamente a melhor página sobre Dragonball que existe
MaGyunia: pra informação, e depois tem um fórum onde eu participei mas deixei de participar
MaGyunia: mas é tudo em inglês
lucas1603: olha os japoneses comendo kkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: 70% do q eles mostram na tv é comida
MaGyunia: é o que o Whis come
lucas1603: o whis ta escondido embaixo daquela mesa que ta as comidas
lucas1603: qual é a sug
lucas1603: sua saga preferida de dbw
lucas1603: ?
MaGyunia: de todo o Dragonball ?
lucas1603: sim
MaGyunia: é mt difícil dizer, mas se tivesse mesmo q escolher acho que a do Freeza é a melhor
MaGyunia: sobretudo se incluir a parte dos Saiya-jins
MaGyunia: é muito sério e violento
lucas1603: pra mim é a do cell
MaGyunia: mas a saga do Cell também é fantástica
MaGyunia: a do Buu já tem alguns falhanços
MaGyunia: e de DB adoro as duas últimasd
lucas1603: como assim?
MaGyunia: do Piccolo Daimao e do Piccolo
MaGyunia: eu tenho o símbolo do Piccolo Daimao tatuado no corpo, só pra ver
lucas1603: não das falhanças que eu perguntei
MaGyunia: e Vegeta no braço em japonês
MaGyunia: tava dizendo que a saga do Buu já é mais fraca que as anteriores
MaGyunia: já tem algumas partes cómicas desnecessárias
lucas1603: ata
MaGyunia: não é tão sério e violento
lucas1603: mais a do boo tbm é legal
MaGyunia: tem muita coisa muito boa
MaGyunia: o SSJ3, Majin Vegeta, Dabla, a luta do Goku com o Kid Buu, a fusão, o Vegitto, o Gohan
MaGyunia: mas nos Saiya-jin, no Freeza e no Cell é sempre violento, é fantástico
MaGyunia: é mais realista, nao sei
MaGyunia: é difícil explicar
MaGyunia: e eles viram que o #17 e o #18 eram demasiado porreiros pra serem vilões a sério, e aí inventaram o Cell
MaGyunia: e também viram que o Majin Buu gordo nao era levado a sério como vilão principal, daí terem inventado as outras versões com um corpo mais decente
lucas1603: vc acha q existiu a saga boo no futuro de trunks?
MaGyunia: não
MaGyunia: o Babidi só tentou reunir a energia pra ressuscitar o Majin Buu porque viu que havia na terra gente com um nível de poder elevadíssimo
MaGyunia: como toda a gente morreu antes de atingir sequer perto desse nível de poder no futuro do Trunks, acho que não existiu
MaGyunia: mas a bola onde o Buu tá enfiado continua lá no centro da terra na mesma, claro
MaGyunia: mas nunca mais ninguém vai mexer nesse futuro
MaGyunia: nem no Bardock nem no Vegitto nem muito menos em vilões que nem são canon como o Brolly
MaGyunia: nem no Tarble
MaGyunia: eu adorava ver o Goku a reagir ao Bardock
MaGyunia: e gostava de ver o Raditz e o Vegitto de novo, ou até o Gogeta que nunca existiu, mas não vai acontecer
MaGyunia: eles tão focando no Whis, Beerus, Vados, Champa, Goku e Vegeta
lucas1603: eu gostaria de ver o nappa de novo
MaGyunia: eu prefiro o Raditz
lucas1603: o nappa é mto engraçado
MaGyunia: e dos filmes gosto muito do Turles
MaGyunia: dos filmes gosto do Turles, Cooler, Brolly e Janenba
lucas1603: gosto mto do primeiro filme do broly
MaGyunia: eu lembro ser criança e chorar porque ninguém todos juntos conseguia derrotar o Brolly
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: ele n é o mais forte de sempre, longe disso
MaGyunia: mas é o mais violento
MaGyunia: é um psicopata
lucas1603: verdade
lucas1603: " KAKAROTOOOO "
MaGyunia: se ele existisse na verdade teria sido ele mais tarde ou mais cedo que iria vingar os Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: matando o Freeza
MaGyunia: mas ia destruir o Universo todo
MaGyunia: ele é doente mental
MaGyunia: no primeiro filme, o 8, ainda fala
MaGyunia: nos outros já só diz KAKAROTTO
lucas1603: ele é o demonio em saiajin
MaGyunia: ele é tão forte quando nasceu como o Bardock adulto
MaGyunia: 10.000
MaGyunia: é quase tão forte em criança como o Vegeta quando veio à Terra a primeira vez
lucas1603: 10.000 de poder de luta é o que o gohan tinha no filme do turles
MaGyunia: é o verdadeiro lendário Super Saiya-jin que aparece a cada 1.000 anos segundo a lenda
MaGyunia: mas esse filme só podia ter acontecido nos 10 dias que o Cell dá antes dos Cell Games
lucas1603: é mesmo
MaGyunia: o Gohan já é um Super Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: e ele só vira SSJ na sala de treino especial
MaGyunia: em teoria pode ter acontecido, mas é demasiado forçado
lucas1603: o terceiro já não poderia ter acontecido de jeito nenhum
MaGyunia: em teoria quase todos os filmes podem ter acontecido, mas é quase impossível
MaGyunia: são sempre cenários hipotéticos
MaGyunia: o terceiro só se o Goku tivesse derrotado o Nappa e o Vegeta antes de eles matarem o Yamcha, o Tenshinhan, o Chaozu e o Piccolo
MaGyunia: e se existisse o Turles, claro
MaGyunia: já tem o Kaio Ken, toda a gente tá viva e portanto não há necessidade de ir a Namek
lucas1603: cara não sei se vc percebeu mais no super ainda não foi mostrado o templo sagrado, será que censuraram o sr. popo?
MaGyunia: acho que não é por isso
MaGyunia: o Karin e o Popo e o Yajirobe perderam todos muito protagonismo
MaGyunia: ao ponto de já nem aparecer
lucas1603: eu adoro o sr. popo
MaGyunia: nos EUA tiraram os lábios do Popo
MaGyunia: porque uma negra disse que era racista
lucas1603: ele sempre se refere na terceira pessoa
MaGyunia: e a versão americana é muito menos violenta, é pra criança
lucas1603: a live bugou
MaGyunia: sim
MaGyunia: na versão japonesa ele só diz parte da frase
MaGyunia: na americana diz tudo certo
MaGyunia: senao era considerado como sendo burro pela comunidade negra
MaGyunia: os EUA censuram tudo e alteram tudo
MaGyunia: até as músicas originais de fundo alteraram
MaGyunia: e isso era fundamental pra DBZ
lucas1603: o sr. popo na versão americana do kai é azul
MaGyunia: sempre odiei a versão americana de DBZ
lucas1603: nunca vi a versão americana de dbz
MaGyunia: o diálogo tá todo trocado
MaGyunia: adaptado à audiência americana
MaGyunia: como um cartoon tá vendo ?
MaGyunia: as musicas sao diferentes
lucas1603: só a brasileira e a portuguesa
MaGyunia: eu vi a galega quando era criança
MaGyunia: no início dos anos 90
MaGyunia: galega = espanhola
MaGyunia: só chegou a portugal muito depois
MaGyunia: depois vi a italiana, francesa e partes da alemã
MaGyunia: mas depois fiquei com a japonesa pra sempre
lucas1603: sempre fiquei com a brasileira
MaGyunia: mas ha muitos anos era muito dificil ter acesso à versão japonesa
MaGyunia: só depois de os DVDs americanos serem todos lançados com o dual audio americano e japones é q foi possivel ter DB e DBZ todo em japonês
MaGyunia: mas eu já tinha DVDs comprados
MaGyunia: eu ja quase nao preciso de legendas pra perceber tudo num episódio novo em japonês
MaGyunia: ver todos os episódios todos os dias durante anos faz isso
MaGyunia: japones falado é bastante fácil
MaGyunia: e depois têm muitas palavras importadas do inglês pronunciadas à japonesa
MaGyunia: imensas
lucas1603: ai em portugal passa dragon ball em algum canal de tv?
MaGyunia: pawaa, speedo, doragon, boru, suupa, goddo, e mais umas 10.000
MaGyunia: passa sempre
MaGyunia: tá sempre passando
MaGyunia: porque foi um sucesso tremendo
MaGyunia: mas nao passa a horas decentes e passa num canal de cabo
MaGyunia: mas tá sempre repetindo DB e DBZ
MaGyunia: e tb já passaram Kai em japonês com legendas em portugues 3 vezes
lucas1603: aqui passa db em um canal a cabo e dbkai em um canal aberto
MaGyunia: no final dos anos 90 em portugal a gente na universidade faltava pra fazer a fusão e ver os episódios
MaGyunia: mas eu nessa altura já tinha visto e revisto tudo na espanhola
lucas1603: na boa, a pior saga de dbz é a do garlic jr
MaGyunia: essa foi pra ganhar tempo
MaGyunia: pro Toriyama ter tempo de fazer o manga da próxima saga
lucas1603: tipo o ep do mr. satan ssj no super
MaGyunia: o mais ridículo é que aparecem imagens do filme
MaGyunia: como se o filme tivesse acontecido mesmo
MaGyunia: o Garlic Jr. se lembrando do Gohan
MaGyunia: e querendo vingança do Goku
lucas1603: verdade
MaGyunia: e o nível de poder do Piccolo devia ser suficiente pra acabar com todos eles facilmente
MaGyunia: há uma diferença gigantesca entre os níveis de poder antes e depois da saga de Namek
MaGyunia: o Vegeta chegou lá com 24.000
MaGyunia: ao longo da saga vai tudo aumentando, o Freeza tem 530.000 na versão mais fraca, lá no fim chega aos 120.000.000
MaGyunia: segundo as informações oficiais
MaGyunia: é a única saga passada fora da terra, é onde os poderes aumentam mais, é a mais violenta e séria, etc.
MaGyunia: e tem o vilão mais carismático
MaGyunia: tá sempre voltando, e agora volta a sério e em grande
MaGyunia: mas não é o meu favorito, eu prefiro o Cell
lucas1603: quando eu vi "o resgate de gohan" pela primeira vez, quando apareceu o garlic jr. eu pensei que ele era o pilaf
MaGyunia: o Goku n quer saber da família pra nada, ajuda a matar o próprio irmão, n se preocupa em ressuscitá-lo, abandona toda a gente pra treinar, n quer saber do pai pra nada, etc.
lucas1603: eles se parecem
MaGyunia: é típico dos Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: sim, são pequenos e azuis
lucas1603: daqui a pouco vai começar o programa dos cantores
MaGyunia: felizmente no Japão ainda n mudaram a hora pro horário de verão
MaGyunia: assim o episódio dá às 00h00 em Portugal e não às 01h00 como dantes
lucas1603: vc já foi um guest aqui?
MaGyunia: antes de me registrar sim
MaGyunia: depois decidi falar e me registrar
MaGyunia: porque deixei o forum do Kanzenshuu
MaGyunia: e quero falar com alguém de Dragonball
MaGyunia: enquanto espero
MaGyunia: eu acho que fui o único em Portugal que viu o primeiro episódio de Super enquanto tava dando no Japão
MaGyunia: pra mim é muito importante ver ao mesmo tempo que tá dando lá
lucas1603: eu tbm acho
MaGyunia: os meus personagens favoritos são Vegeta, Piccolo, Piccolo Daimao, Tenshinhan, Cell, Dabla, Turles, Bardock
MaGyunia: Vegitto também
lucas1603: os meus são goten, vegeta, majin boo, goku, oolong e tenshinhan
MaGyunia: Oolong ? porquê ?
lucas1603: cell tbm
lucas1603: ele é engraçado
MaGyunia: é um porco e nem lutar sabe
MaGyunia: Majin Buu qual deles ?
MaGyunia: o gordo ?
lucas1603: não o boo com o gohan absorvidp
lucas1603: absorvido
MaGyunia: ah
MaGyunia: tb gosto, mas prefiro o Kid Buu
MaGyunia: é outro doente mental
MaGyunia: e pode acrescentar o Beerus tbm
lucas1603: renascimento de freeza saiu dublado em portugal?
MaGyunia: aos meus favoritos
MaGyunia: ainda nao
MaGyunia: eu n quero ver dublado
MaGyunia: nem em portugues nem em americano nem em lingua nenhuma
MaGyunia: eu so vejo japones
lucas1603: vc gosta da dublagem portuguesa?
MaGyunia: nao, é uma vergonha
MaGyunia: passam a vida brincando
MaGyunia: nao levam a sério, é ridículo
MaGyunia: as vozes são péssimas, fazem confusão com as raças e as transformações, etc.
MaGyunia: porque é tradução directa da versão francesa
MaGyunia: por exemplo, em portugal não existe o termo Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: chamam-lhes "guerreiros do espaço"
lucas1603: " calma videl calma videl calma videl " (dublagem portuguesa )
MaGyunia: um Super Saiya-jin é um "super guerreiro"
lucas1603: nossa
MaGyunia: sim tipo isso
MaGyunia: mas há pior
lucas1603: que horror
MaGyunia: dava num canal e faziam publicidade a outros programas de sucesso desse canal
MaGyunia: as personagens
MaGyunia: era ridículo
MaGyunia: os nomes das técnicas também tão todos trocados por causa da versão francesa
MaGyunia: muitos nem têm nome
lucas1603: tipo?
MaGyunia: Final Flash não tem nome
MaGyunia: Makankosappo n tem nome
MaGyunia: Masenko n tem nome
MaGyunia: Kamehameha tem prai 5 nomes diferentes
MaGyunia: o Mr. Satan é o Hércules
MaGyunia: mas o Piccolo é o Satã
MaGyunia: porque vem do francês
MaGyunia: Satan Petit Coeur
MaGyunia: quer dizer pequeno coração
MaGyunia: e em portugues puseram "coraçãozinho de satã"
MaGyunia: não existe o nome "Piccolo" em portugues
MaGyunia: é ridiculo
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: mas isso dos Saiya-jin causa imensa confusão
MaGyunia: quem nao é mesmo fã fica confuso
MaGyunia: é importante e fundamental perceber que Saiya-jin é uma raça de extraterrestres como qq outra q aparece nos filmes
MaGyunia: na versão portuguesa e francesa isso n fica bem esclarecido
MaGyunia: portanto ha gente menos informada que acha q qq um pode se transformar em SSJ
MaGyunia: porque n sabe o que é nem um Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: que é do mais básico que há
MaGyunia: e as vozes mudam várias vezes durante a série
MaGyunia: o Vegeta tem 3 vozes diferentes
lucas1603: então ai o broly é tipo " lendario super guerreiro do espaço " ?
MaGyunia: super guerreiro lendário
MaGyunia: eles chamam super guerreiro a um Super Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: Saiya-jin = guerreiro do espaço
lucas1603: ah
MaGyunia: Super Saiya-jin = super guerreiro
MaGyunia: Super Saiya-jin 2 = nem tem nome kkk
lucas1603: kkkkkk
MaGyunia: Super Saiya-jin 3 = mega guerreiro
lucas1603: kkkkkkkk
lucas1603: e ssj 4?
MaGyunia: super guerreiro nível 4
lucas1603: ssj deus
MaGyunia: n existe ainda
lucas1603: ssjdssj
MaGyunia: ainda n ha dublagem da batalha dos deuses em portugues
MaGyunia: muito menos do filme deste ano do Freeza
MaGyunia: se um dia houver devem chamar deus super guerreiro
MaGyunia: e ao SSJGSSJ se calhar chamam super guerreiro azul ou qualquer coisa ridícula como isso
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: o Nappa, o Zarbon, o Dodoria e toda a Ginyu Tokusentai n tem nome tb
lucas1603: guerreiro azul super deus
MaGyunia: nunca dizem o nome deles
MaGyunia: à Ginyu Tokusentai chamam simplesmente "forças especiais"
MaGyunia: eu vou sempre pelo japonês
MaGyunia: nem quero ouvir dublagens
lucas1603: ai o apresentador do torneio de artes marcias tem nome?
MaGyunia: nao
lucas1603: aqui tbm não
MaGyunia: mas a versão francesa tinha uma cena boa
MaGyunia: que era o facto de manter os gritos em japones
MaGyunia: na versao original
MaGyunia: sempre que nao havia dialogo
MaGyunia: o que eu queria era ouvir japones
MaGyunia: os gritos
lucas1603: acho q o nome dele é " apresentador do torneio de artes marcias "
MaGyunia: por isso via a versao francesa só por isso
MaGyunia: mas isso n é um nome
MaGyunia: é uma descrição
lucas1603: eu sei eu to brincando
MaGyunia: pra mim é tudo japon
MaGyunia: japonês
MaGyunia: Pikkoro
MaGyunia: Bejiita
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin
lucas1603: supa saiajin gotor
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Goddo
MaGyunia: Hakaishin Birusu
MaGyunia: Burori
lucas1603: doragon boru supa
MaGyunia: Bideru
MaGyunia: Pikkoro Daimao
MaGyunia: Seru
MaGyunia: Furiza
MaGyunia: Buruma
MaGyunia: Fainaru Furash
MaGyunia: Makankosappo
MaGyunia: Bigu Ban Attakku
MaGyunia: Gyarikku Hou
MaGyunia: Bakurikimaha
MaGyunia: Kienzan
MaGyunia: Kikoho
MaGyunia: e aqueles níveis de SSJ entre o normal e o 2
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Furu Pawaa
MaGyunia: e depois Suupa Saiya-jin Tsu
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Thuri
lucas1603: no japão deve ser mto ruim acordar de manhã ouvindo essa voz
MaGyunia: Uisu
MaGyunia: n tou ouvindo
MaGyunia: o live
MaGyunia: é domingo lá
MaGyunia: n devem tar acordados
lucas1603: já era pra tar cheio aqui essa hora
MaGyunia: q idade voce tem ?
lucas1603: 15
lucas1603: e vc ?
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: mais do dobro
MaGyunia: 32
lucas1603:
zeker: oio
zeker: oi povo
lucas1603: oi
MaGyunia: ossu
MaGyunia: kon'nichiwa
MaGyunia: genki desu ka ?
MaGyunia: oratachi wa doragon boru suupa mateiru zou
lucas1603: ?????
MaGyunia: por exemplo na versão portuguesa nao existe Kakarotto
MaGyunia: o Vegeta chama sempre Songoku ao Goku
MaGyunia: outro falho básico
MaGyunia: e então quando se fundem no Vegitto
zeker: jogando dbz btk3 aqui enquanto n começa
MaGyunia: Vegeta + Kakarotto = Vegetto
MaGyunia: em portugues chamam-lhe Vegeku
MaGyunia: Vegeta + Goku
MaGyunia: kkk
lucas1603: kkkk
MaGyunia: e o Gotenks é o Gotrunks
MaGyunia: nao custava nada deixar estar Gotenks
MaGyunia: fundir Goten com Trunks
MaGyunia: Gotenks é perfeito
MaGyunia: mas nao
MaGyunia: preferiram ser sem imaginação e fundiram tudo
zeker: já viram a fusão Gokule do dbz budokai 2 :v
zeker: ?
lucas1603: não
lucas1603: é com quem?
zeker: Goku e Hercule
zeker: que é o Mister Satana
zeker: Satan*
lucas1603: ah
MaGyunia: na versão americana é Hercule
MaGyunia: e em portugues tb é Hércules
zeker: sim
MaGyunia: pra evitar referencias religiosas
MaGyunia: na america ate mudaram o q diz nas t-shirts dos Oni
MaGyunia: dizia Hell
MaGyunia: Inferno
MaGyunia: mudaram pra Hfil
MaGyunia: rebentaram com a série toda por todos os lados
lucas1603: satan siginifica papai noel em japones
MaGyunia: seriedade, música de fundo, nomes, etc.
MaGyunia: Satan em Portugal é satanás
MaGyunia: o símbolo do Piccolo Daimao quer dizer "ma"
MaGyunia: demónio
MaGyunia: e eu ando com isso tatuado no peito
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: tudo o que é demoníaco tem "ma" algures
MaGyunia: Ma Junior
lucas1603: acho que na versão finlandesa também é hercules, porque papai noel lá é satana
MaGyunia: DaiMAo
lucas1603: satanas*
MaGyunia: Makyo
MaGyunia: Makaioshin
MaGyunia: Makaiou Dabura
MaGyunia: Makankosappo
MaGyunia: Masenko
MaGyunia: Makosen
MaGyunia: como se chama o Muten Roshi no Brasil ?
MaGyunia: e o Mutaito ?
lucas1603: mestre kame
zeker: Mestre Kame
MaGyunia: pois porque o nome dele é Muten Roshi mas tem o título Kame-sennin em japones
MaGyunia: o Goku chama-lhe sempre assim
MaGyunia: mestre da tartaruga literalmente
lucas1603: nossa mestre da tartaruga kkkkkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: o que treina o Tenshinhan e o Chaozu é o Tsuru-sennin
MaGyunia: tsuru = corvo
MaGyunia: outro que nao tem nome em portugues é o Yajirobe
MaGyunia: o Kaiou-sama é o Kaíbe
MaGyunia: e o Kaio Ken é "o Ataque de Kaíbe"
lucas1603: aqui é sr. kaio
lucas1603: o kaiou sama
MaGyunia: Big Bang Attack tem nome mas mais valia nao ter
MaGyunia: qd o Vegeta lança sobre o #19
MaGyunia: ele diz "vais sentir o poder do ataque do super big bang !"
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: qd lança o Final Flash contra o Cell só grita "atenç
MaGyunia: "atenção!"
MaGyunia: Genkidama é força universal
MaGyunia: Kikoho é força absoluta
lucas1603: perai que eu já volto
zeker: que hr começa?
MaGyunia: ta zuando ?
zeker: to
MaGyunia: tem montes de gente que vem perguntando a que horas começa a sério
zeker: :v
MaGyunia: nao interessa que horas sao em q país for, começa às 9 no japão, qd der 9 ali no canto superior esquerdo do live começa
MaGyunia: a responder só assim
MaGyunia: ou entao insultando
zeker: :v
lucas1603: voltei
lucas1603: o q aconteceu?
MaGyunia: o Brolly partiu isto tudo
lucas1603: zeker se no seu estado tem horario de verão começa 22:00
lucas1603: vcs gostam de algum anime alem de db?
MaGyunia: anime so vejo Dragonball
MaGyunia: e aquele pedaço que aparece no primeiro filme do Kill Bill kkk
lucas1603: naruto, one piece, cavaleiros do zodiaco e yu gi oh
MaGyunia: tsubasa
lucas1603: o gelton podia aparecer neh
MaGyunia: o Japão cometeu muitas atrocidades na II guerra mundial
MaGyunia: foi tudo influência do Piccolo Daimao
MaGyunia: libertou os criminosos todos
MaGyunia: se não fosse o palhaço do Pilaf não havia Piccolo
lucas1603: pilaf = lixo
lucas1603: já era pra ta cheio aqui
luan20: kkkkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: do que que c ta rindo?
luan20: Do naruto one piece
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
inlove)
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
luan20: Ira começa que horas DBS ?
lucas1603: 22:00 se tem horario de verão no seu estado
lucas1603: se não tem é as 21:00
luan20: Aqui sera as 21:00 sou de Salvador
lucas1603: aqui vai começar as 22:00
lucas1603: sou de belo horizonte
luan20: Não sei pq sou apaixonado por chinesas e japonesas kkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: cada pessoa tem seu gosto ué kkkkkk
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603: japonez é td igual
lucas1603: olha só
luan20: vdd kkkkkkkk
lucas1603: cara igual olho igual boca igual
lucas1603: bunda igual
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkk
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
rsrssr
viciadoemdb: chegay meu povo
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603: oiii
lucas1603: o que fazem?
luan20: Assistindo filme de terror Jason X
lucas1603: ouvindo musica
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603: bem que o gelton podia aparecer logo
luan20: sim
lucas1603: vc perdeu, a hora que a live bugou
luan20: Sim
luan20: kkk
lucas1603: abriu um tanto de janela com a live ai deu um tanto de som estranho
luan20: lol
zeker: ...
lucas1603: e a live começou com o gelton discutindo com duas pessoas
luan20: hum
rvs_20: eai povo
lucas1603: eai
MaGyunia: kon'nichiwa
luan20: eai
MaGyunia: hoje vai ter flashback do Freeza destruindo o Planeta Vegeta de novo
rvs_20: cade o gelton
Mod
vinicius: eae clã
MaGyunia: ou seja, ha uma hipotese mínima de o Bardock realmente aparecer em Super uns segundos
lucas1603: rvs não sei
lucas1603: eai vinicuus
luan20: hum
lucas1603: q isso?
luan20: O que ?
lucas1603: isso q ta mostrando
luan20: sobre o atentado a frança
lucas1603: ah
luan20: mato 129 pessoas ontem
luan20: terrorista mato 129 pessoas ontem
lucas1603: eu vi
luan20: Acho que agora a frança vai para de receber refugiado
lucas1603: tbm acho
MaGyunia: n tem só a ver com refugiados
MaGyunia: a frança
MaGyunia: é o pais europeu mais activo na guerra contra o estado islâmico
MaGyunia: e tem montanhas de muçulmanos no país
luan20: Sim mais terrorista entro se passando por refugiados
MaGyunia: muitos deles fundamentalistas e terroristas com ligações ao estado islâmico
MaGyunia: mas este é o pior atentado terrorista desde o 11 de setembro
MaGyunia: foi em 4 sítios ao mesmo tempo
MaGyunia: num só pavilhão mataram todos os 100 reféns
luan20: Sim Sim
thiagoanimefnd07: Deus tem misericórdia desse povo
MaGyunia: deus não existe
lucas1603: sim, eu sei mais o estado islamico e os refugiados são mulçumanos
thiagoanimefnd07: pra vc
thiagoanimefnd07: pra mim ele existe sim
MaGyunia: sim mas nem todo o muçulmano é terrorista
MaGyunia: alguns terroristas vieram com os refugiados
luan20: Verdade MaGyunia
MaGyunia: mas os refugiados ainda nem sequer chegaram aos países de destino na europa
lucas1603: tem uns q chegaram
MaGyunia: a frança e outros países da europa têm terroristas e fundamentalistas infiltrados até da própria nacionalidade há muito tempo
thiagoanimefnd07: toda a paris de luto cara isso foi muito angustiante
MaGyunia: isso vai continuar
MaGyunia: o problema do médio oriente nunca se vai resolver
thiagoanimefnd07: Deus queira que não
MaGyunia: se deus existe e é bom pq permite essas barbaridades ?
MaGyunia: não é essa a razão pra eu nao acreditar, atenção
MaGyunia: tem a ver com lógica
MaGyunia: mas já agora pergunto
thiagoanimefnd07: as pessoas as vezes perecem por não o buscarem
thiagoanimefnd07: a ele
guigabrdf: vcs nem sbaem oq passa na cabeça de deus
MaGyunia: ele tem que ser buscado ? não pode aparecer e facilitar ?
thiagoanimefnd07: ele facilitou de mais agente que quis se separar com o pecado
luan20: Deus deu O livre-arbítrio o que acontece aqui ele não vai fazer nada
lucas1603: eles fazem esses atentados nos paises da europa pq em 2003, os paises europeus ajudarm os eua a invadir o iraque
MaGyunia: o programa dos convidados começou mais cedo hoje
MaGyunia: lucas sim e se reparar
MaGyunia: em 2001 foi EUA
MaGyunia: 2004 espanha
MaGyunia: 2005 inglaterra
MaGyunia: os 3 países que se reuniram em portugal pra decidir atacar o iraque
MaGyunia: o europeu vai ser em frança
MaGyunia: de futebol
thiagoanimefnd07: temos que dar o maior apoio as pessoas de lá agora
MaGyunia: que apoio ?
MaGyunia: espiritual ?
thiagoanimefnd07: todo possivel
MaGyunia: o apoio era rebentar com esses psicopatas religiosos do islão
MaGyunia: todos, 100%
thiagoanimefnd07: não vou debater religião cada um crer no que quer a questão é saber respeitar a crença do outro
guigabrdf: apoio kkkkkk
MaGyunia: praticamente todas as guerras são por causa da religião
weto: oi
MaGyunia: de repente a Europa tá ficando islamificada
MaGyunia: na Alemanha é só turcos
MaGyunia: Inglaterra é só indianos
MaGyunia: França ui
lucas1603: e ainda mataram saddam sendo que lá nem fabricava bomba nuclear, isso q acabei de falar é a causa desse atentado
luan20: As guerras não são por causa das religião e sim pelo os recursos dos paises
MaGyunia: o estado islâmico e os problemas q israel tem com os muçulmanos ha decadas sao por causa de religião
MaGyunia: andam ha milhares de anos nisso
thiagoanimefnd07: vamos respeitar o pensamento dos outros pfv
lucas1603: esse programa geralmente começa as 8
MaGyunia: é evidente que depois cresce a xenofobia
MaGyunia: é verdade lucas eu disse isso
lucas1603: começou mais cedo hoje
MaGyunia: hoje começou mais cedo
MaGyunia: começou às 7:39
MaGyunia: mas duvido que Super comece antes das 9:00
MaGyunia: tao a fazer um especial por causa da cena da frança
lucas1603: já pararam pra pensar q esse programa se extenda por causa desse atentado e n tem dbs
thiagoanimefnd07: alguém sabe me dizer o motivo do ataque qual o objetivo ?
weto: Que hora começa?
weto: Não vai ter por causa do atentado?
lucas1603: vai
thiagoanimefnd07: foi vingança pelo aliamento da frança em alguuma guerra ???? maGyunia qual o motivo do ataque ?
MaGyunia: n ha uma so causa especifica
MaGyunia: o mundo ocidental anda em guerra no médio oriente ha mais de uma década
thiagoanimefnd07: a ta vlw
MaGyunia: primeiro afeganistão, depois iraque, agora síria
MaGyunia: agora surgiu o estado islâmico
MaGyunia: pra fugir à guerra na síria surgem os refugiados a invadir a europa
MaGyunia: e ha muitos muçulmanos a aderir ao estado islâmico e a planear estes ataques
MaGyunia: como a al-qaeda fazia
MaGyunia: porque um muçulmano radical vê qualquer um q nao adere ao islão como merecedor da morte
MaGyunia: são psicopatas lunáticos
berusssama: e e adilma ainda que deichar los vir para ca ve se pode
MaGyunia: é o que a religião faz
thiagoanimefnd07: cara sem isso pfv
lucas1603: concordo berussama
MaGyunia: eles vêm pra europa de barco porque ha uma ilha italiana que nao fica muito longe do norte de áfrica
MaGyunia: que é onde fica a síria etc.
MaGyunia: eles querem ir pra alemanha etc., mas ainda n conseguiram chegar lá
MaGyunia: e os países ja tão pondo restrições e a erguer muros
MaGyunia: a europa nao pode ser invadida
thiagoanimefnd07: vai ter live hj dbs ????????
MaGyunia: o estado islâmico tem que ser destruído absolutamente
lucas1603: vai sim
MaGyunia: claro que vai
thiagoanimefnd07: ok
MaGyunia: e o Freeza vai ressuscitar e dizimar o estado islâmico
MaGyunia: no 6º universo já nem há terra
MaGyunia: por causa da guerra
MaGyunia: é um milagre ainda haver
MaGyunia: depois da guerra fria e das bombas nucleares e destas guerras todas
luan20: vdd
lucas1603: vdd
MaGyunia: mas o médio oriente já mete nojo
weto: vdd
lucas1603: vdd
MaGyunia: todos os dias atentados guerra violência decapitações
MaGyunia: mais vale arrasar aquilo tudo e acabou a história
MaGyunia: mas isso ia contra as pretensões da rússia e da china e nao se pode brincar com a rússia e a china
lucas1603: aparece logo gelton
MaGyunia: já curamos o cancro, já fomos à lua, já descobrimos a energia nuclear, criamos cidades, internet, composições musicais, tudo
MaGyunia: mas metade da população do mundo ainda morre à fome
MaGyunia: e as guerras com milhares de anos continuam
MaGyunia: a humanidade n tem correcção
MaGyunia: vai-se auto-destruir
MaGyunia: desde que seja depois do fim de Super tudo bem
luan20: Nos mesmos vamos destruir a terrar
MaGyunia: eu vou destruir a terra porque sou o Hakaishin Birusu
luan20: kkk
lucas1603: k
MaGyunia: a quantidade de vezes que ele diz q vai destruir a terra
MaGyunia: e acaba por nao destruir
porcino: oi
thiagoanimefnd07: mais de 8.000
lucas1603: oi
porcino: kd dragon ball?
MaGyunia: ate isso os americanos pegaram mal
MaGyunia: n era 9.000, sempre foi 8.000
weto: Iluminatis
luan20: kkkkkkk
MaGyunia: discurso alterado, música de fundo alterada, ridículo
lucas1603: quem assistiu dragon ball kai hj ??
MaGyunia: Brasil 1 Alemanha 7
weto: Nova Ordem Mundial
MaGyunia: Kroos
weto: klose
MaGyunia: Klose
MaGyunia: Thomas Müller
luan20: Vou chamar o Saitaman
luan20: kkkkkkkkk
weto: Oscar
MaGyunia: Fred
porcino: Saitama > Goku
thiagoanimefnd07: acha que os 5 guerreiros serão goku gohan vegeta goten e trunks ?
MaGyunia: Goku, Vegeta e Gohan tão garantidos
MaGyunia: depois depende
MaGyunia: se for o Gotenks o outro deve ser Piccolo
luan20: Mano pode existe outros guerreiros alem dos Z
thiagoanimefnd07: e bill e whiss pra completar ?
MaGyunia: senão devem ir Goten e Trunks separados, ou seja, 5 Saiya-jin
lucas1603: acho q vai ser goku vegeta majin boo, n° 18 e piccolo
MaGyunia: o Gohan e o Gotenks são superiores ao Majin Buu lucas
luan20: Acho que vai aparece pesonagem novos pra forma a equipe
porcino: espero que no 6º universo tenha os saiyajins, muito provavel?
thiagoanimefnd07: seria foda o trunks do futuro voltar e participar
MaGyunia: no 6º universo vai ser o Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Dilma Rousseff e André Schürrle
lucas1603: seria msm
thiagoanimefnd07: ou o n° 17 lutar
weto: trunten
MaGyunia: nunca mais vai haver Trunks do futuro
MaGyunia: nem Bardock
weto: potara
MaGyunia: nem Vegitto
MaGyunia: nem Brolly, q nunca existiu
MaGyunia: nem Tarble
MaGyunia: nem Raditz
thiagoanimefnd07: trunks do futuro tem chance sim
porcino: quando começa saporra de DBS?
rukamovic: potalla
lucas1603: tem gnt q acha q vai ter bardocck no time do champ
luan20: kkkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: 22
MaGyunia: quando der 9 horas ali no canto superior esquerdo do live
thiagoanimefnd07: kkkkkkk
lucas1603: :
porcino: :0
MaGyunia: tá em 8:02
rukamovic: DBS
rukamovic: KD DBS?
lucas1603: 22:00
porcino: eita, vai demorar
lucas1603: já falei
nathanda39: vdd
rukamovic: QUE BOSTA VELHO
MaGyunia: qual é a cena do Bardock ? o Bardock nunca mais vai aparecer
MaGyunia: os guerreiros do 6º universo vao ser completamente diferentes e desconhecidos
nathanda39: "verão"
pauloggamer: ah veio vai demora
MaGyunia: mas pra terem hipótese contra o Goku, Vegeta, etc. com o poder actual deles devem ser muito muito fortes
luan20: Pra me bardock morreu junto com planeta não considero aquele OVI sei la como e
rukamovic: AQUI NO NORDESTE QUE HORA COMEÇA?
MaGyunia: luan esse filme não é canon
lucas1603: lógico q champa não vai arrumar qualquer pessoa pro time dele
MaGyunia: o Bardock morreu qd o Freeza destruiu o Planeta Vegeta, ponto
weto: eu penso que quando Bardock derrotou o antepassado de freeza, ele lutava com freeza do universo 6, e ele não morreu contra freeza, só de alguma forma, foi para o universo 6.
luan20: Mas no mangá ele não vira SJJ
thiagoanimefnd07: 21.00 começa aqui no nordeste
porcino: Se bardock existir no 6º universo, vai ser foda demais
luan20: ssj
rukamovic: VALEU THIAGO!
luan20: MaGyunia No Manga ele não vira SSJ
MaGyunia: nem vira nem tem que virar
MaGyunia: isso não é canon
MaGyunia: o Bardock morreu no special dele contra o Freeza, acabou
lucas1603: vou esquentar meu jantar pera
luan20: Sim Sim
MaGyunia: não voltou atrás no tempo nem lutou contra um antepassado do Freeza
luan20: Isso Isso
MaGyunia: esse filme é como os outros
MaGyunia: são só cenários hipotéticos
thiagoanimefnd07: queria ver a mãe do goku no 6° universo
manoxablau: Namoral
manoxablau: pq n começou ainda?
nathanda39: Só 22h
thiagoanimefnd07: bugooooo
manoxablau: PQP
manoxablau: ESQUECI DO HORÁRIO DE VERÃO
nathanda39: 01100111 01101111 01101011 01110101
nathanda39: quem acerta?
weto: morte
nathanda39: Not
weto: não sei então
weto: parece morte
lucas1603: voltei
lucas1603: sentiram minha falta?
nathanda39: Me parece uma disputa? Algo na política, será?
weto: sim
weto: isso
weto: tão falando da França
MaGyunia: quando foi a cena dos cartoonistas
MaGyunia: foram alguns terroristas
MaGyunia: mataram 4 ou 5
MaGyunia: agora foram mais de 100
MaGyunia: foi tudo coordenado
MaGyunia: em varios sitios ao mm tempo
MaGyunia: como um ataque militar
MaGyunia: a Europa tá condenada
luan20: ?????
weto: Illuminatis
nathanda39: ???
MaGyunia: aqui em Portugal tão falando da frança a toda a hora
weto: ????
MaGyunia: esse é o pior atentado desde o 11 de setembro
carlabeatriz: Boa Noite!
MaGyunia: mais valia enfiar uma série de bombas atómicas naquela zona toda do médio oriente
weto: Boa Noite
lucas1603: bom dia
MaGyunia: acabou-se o problema
MaGyunia: como dizia o Stalin
luan20: Flw volto as 22h
carlabeatriz: Infelizmente a nossa casa não está muito limpa....
lucas1603: flw
MaGyunia: "a morte resolve tudo, quando há homens, há problemas, sem homens, sem problemas"
weto: Good Night
lucas1603: good night
MaGyunia: good evening
MaGyunia: good night é quando te despedes até amanhã
weto: tarde não
MaGyunia: tarde é afternoon
weto: sei
weto: to me despedindo
nathanda39: kkk
nathanda39: ok
porcino: vai não
carlabeatriz: terrorismo na Europa, terremoto no Japão, Guerra no Oriente Médio, desastres políticos e ambientais no Brasil. Espero que Deus esteja nos observando.
berusssama: eu tamben
MaGyunia: deus ? qual deus ?
MaGyunia: o Hakaishin Birusu ?
weto: Que idade vocês tem?
MaGyunia: esse ao menos existe
carlabeatriz: kkkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: em anime
lucas1603: 15
carlabeatriz: 23
MaGyunia: 32
weto: velho
weto: idoso
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
weto: mas respeito você
carlabeatriz: galera, vocês estão assistindo Dragon Ball Kai?
MaGyunia: muitos alemães que jogaram contra o Brasil nos 7-1 tinham 32 ou mais
lucas1603: eu to
mcgame20: hey cara nao consigo descer para ver o video a ceta que desce nao esta aqui
carlabeatriz: Não preocupem, fiquem felizes se conseguirem chegar aos 32...
nathanda39: Dbz kai dnv '-.-
MaGyunia: os que têm agora 10 ou 15 ou 20 nao chegam
MaGyunia: isto vai rebentar tudo
MaGyunia: 3ª guerra mundial
MaGyunia: nuclear
renanrodriigues: Cheguei padawans
weto: bah
porcino: Nem falo nada, que o Deus dos Islamistas é o mesmo da bíblia
kaua: iae
lucas1603: db é eterno
MaGyunia: o problema é esse, acreditar e agir de acordo com histórias fictícias como a bíblia
MaGyunia: alucinações colectivas
mcgame20: Algum da equipe me ajuda,por exemplo entro no site ai a barra de descer do video funfa passa um tempo e ela nao esta mais e o video fica cortado.
carlabeatriz: Eu gostaria de conseguir acordar as 5 da manhã para assistir DBKAI, mas não consigo, estaé a verdade kkkkkk
lucas1603: eu consigo
carlabeatriz: Aqui não tem horário de verão, por isso começa bem mais cedo.
rukamovic: doragon boru zeto!
lucas1603: aqui tem
lucas1603:
carlabeatriz: Mas eu confesso que prefiro a versão clássica
porcino: vamos dar KI para Goku nos salvar
lucas1603: vamos
carlabeatriz: \o/
ssjgod: oi eu não sou o Goku.
porcino: \o/
weto: Se bem que a bíblia ja passou por mais de 15 línguas, pode ter alterações nela
rukamovic: \o/
MaGyunia: a bíblia é ficção científica de má qualidade
carlabeatriz: e quem pode garantir qual é a religião mais verdadeira?
ssjgod: respeita rapaz,Kamen acredite no Son-Goku.
MaGyunia: uma vez não tinha combustível pra fazer fogo e usei uma bíblia
mcgame20: deixa pr ala ja resolvi
carlabeatriz: Qual o Deus que existe de verdade? Qual religião está certa?
MaGyunia: nenhuma religião é verdadeira, é tudo alucinações colectivas mantidas ao longo dos séculos através do poder da igreja
lucas1603: quem é o mais velho aqui?
MaGyunia: cheia de pedófilos
ssjgod: sei lá tem alguém com mais de 40 anos aqui ?
nathanda39: 16!
nathanda39: kk
MaGyunia: eu tenho milhões de anos
thiagoanimefnd07: quem somos nós pra julgar os outros ???
MaGyunia: Birusu
weto: 16
carlabeatriz: Eu vou dizer uma coisa, serei criticada e tal mas, O Deus é o mesmo, agora, o ser humano em suas diversas regionalidades, fez as mais diferentes interpretações de suas palavras.
mcgame20: Cara o seguinte,se nao cre em nada comente nada apenas respeite.
lucas1603: quem é o mais novo aqui?
cacildes: A
lucas1603: b
ssjgod: C
carlabeatriz: c
carlabeatriz: d
lucas1603: e
thiagoanimefnd07: f
weto: g
carlabeatriz: h
lucas1603: h
lucas1603: i
carlabeatriz: j
thiagoanimefnd07: j
ssjgod: porra cade DB Super ? só to vendo um japa aqui falar.
weto: k
lucas1603: l
carlabeatriz: m
lucas1603: n
thiagoanimefnd07: o
lucas1603: p
carlabeatriz: q
lucas1603: r
MaGyunia: eu tenho tanto direito de comentar a minha posição quanto a religião se sou ateu como aqueles que são crentes
carlabeatriz: s
porcino: ssjgod: 22:00
lucas1603: t
carlabeatriz: u
ssjgod: mesa redonda discutindo DB Super nos japas kkkk
lucas1603: v
MaGyunia: agora tão a falar na hipótese de o Bardock aparecer
thiagoanimefnd07: seria bom se fosse
porcino: sinto lhe informar, mas Saitama > Goku God
carlabeatriz: x
carlabeatriz: z
ssjgod: Saitama já destruiu um universo ? então xiu ae
mcgame20: O que saitama pode fazer melhor que o Goku?
renanrodriigues: Siiim o/
porcino: tudo kkkkk
ssjgod: caralho entrou um RATO AQUI no meu quarto.
carlabeatriz: Oláaaa
MaGyunia: esse tá dizendo que o Bardock é poderoso, mas a mulher diz que é fraco
weto: não te ouço
MaGyunia: só tem 10.000
mcgame20: Simmmm
rvs_20: sim
renanrodriigues: Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiim o/
lucas1603: eu to
MaGyunia: arranja um gato
MaGyunia: um neko
Guest Chatting Is Enabled
carlabeatriz: Estou
renanrodriigues: Vaaaai Corinthians
ssjgod: Ratasana
Guest_58801417572: estou
Guest_98801417249: .
animesdigital: Pessoal aviso de promkoção ANIMESDIGITAL
champa: Eae Gelton \õ/
porcino: oi gordinho
Guest_80671417807: alo mae to na globo
porcino: opa
MaGyunia: o facebook tá todo cheio de cenas da frança
porcino: facebookison
mcgame20: Gelton modinha com filtro da frança
gakazi: poxa
gakazi: n e modinha kra
gakazi: e solidariedade
Guest_60161417878: coxaaaaaaa
gakazi: plm eu tenho
carlabeatriz: O face é dele, posta o que quiser!
porcino: gente, no Quênia morreu mais gente em ataque terrorista
Guest_79371417781: ja acabo o dbz
animesdigital: COMENTÁRIO PREMIADO Aqui tem !! Os 3 comentários mais curtidos GANHAM um DVD do DragonBall Super com frete grátis. Obrigatório compartilhar este post. Contagem de curtidas 21/nov as 20h. POST DA PROMOÇÃO: www.facebook.com/animesdigital/videos/vb.219903661370476/1154218291272337
mcgame20: Cade a solidariedade com as 7.200 pessoas que morreram por conflistos terrorista na Ucrania?
Guest_74321417913: buuu
ssjgod: quero um DVD do Dragon Ball Super com o ep 5
mcgame20: aw conta outra
Guest_58801417572: kkkkkkkkkk né
mcgame20: conflitos*
porcino: parem de chupar bolas da frança. um hora a gente vai ter que enfrentar esta praga do islã
MaGyunia: cadê a solidariedade pelas cruzadas, pela inquisição, pela pedofilia e vidas destruídas e 90% de todas as guerras travadas na história da humanidade em nome de um ser invisível ?
gakazi: prefiro fica vendo os kra falando em japones
ssjgod: idem
gakazi: #PRAYFORJAPAN
Guest_79371417781: q hr vai comeca o dbs
gakazi: 22 horas
ssjgod: #somostodosmacacos
porcino: aqui já teve caso de terrorismo em uma escola do RJ
carlabeatriz: depende do seu fusohário
weto: Alguém tem menos de 16 anos?
ssjgod: acho que não...
Guest_20961417292: tenho 17 serve
gakazi: tenho 16
lucas1603: eu tenho 15
MaGyunia: poe se rezando em territórios controlados pelo estado islâmico na síria e decapitam você enquanto reza
carlabeatriz: Gelton você está bem?
Guest_70431417996: 22
MaGyunia: pq acreditam q deus tá do lado deles
gakazi: primeira vez minha vendo live
porcino: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Realengo
gakazi: desse site
newswwe: ja acabou?
gakazi: casa do kame e foda
MaGyunia: o problema não é o islão, é o próprio conceito de religião no Século XXI
Guest_40131418081: Salve
ssjgod: que horas começa Dragon Ball Super ?
Guest_29991417835: Que horas vai começar??
gakazi: 22
gakazi: porra
porcino: 22:00
gakazi: 22 horas
ssjgod: quero ver o Senhor Freeza
gakazi: nem sei se vai mostra nesse ep
Guest_16521412825: 21:00
Guest_16651418022: cu
gakazi: ow ceis tao vendo o mangá?
ssjgod: sim
gakazi: mano o manga ta mt foda
Guest_74231418147: va]
Guest_98801417249: ..
guieze: de eu ve se entendi tem que comentar aquela publicação pra participar
carlabeatriz: faltou o Upa, e o Hiajirobe
gakazi: naao guiezew
animesdigital: ISSO MESMO
ssjgod: Upa é noob
gakazi: ah sim
gakazi: kkkkkk
Guest_86621418154: gfg
Guest_79371417781: kk
nathanda39: kkkk hello
champa: conversa com ajente gelton '-'
mcgame20: Meu time Goku,Vegeta,Majim Boo,Piccolo e Gohan
gakazi: meia hora caraaaio
Guest_58801417572: q ep vaqi ser
Guest_74231418147: vai estar legendado??????
ssjgod: 30 minutos ainda ? vou mijar e tomar um banho ja volto.
Guest_36591417975: que hrs comesa
carlabeatriz: tem tbm aquele android que parece o Frankstein
Guest_98801417249: ohhhhhhhh
animesdigital: Os 3 comentários mais curtidos GANHAM um DVD do DragonBall Super com frete grátis. Obrigatório compartilhar este post. Contagem de curtidas 21/nov as 20h.
Guest_86621418154: maior onda
gakazi: PQ TODO MUNDO ACHA Q SO VAI TER GUERREIRO DA TERRA NO 7 UNIVERSO?
Guest_58801417572: q ep vai ser
gakazi: PQ TODO MUNDO ACHA Q SO VAI TER GUERREIRO DA TERRA NO 7 UNIVERSO?
gakazi: porra tem varios planetas
gakazi: krl
Guest_72711418152: meu time: goku,vegeta,gohan,picolo e trunks do futuro
gakazi: pode ter varios
Guest_98801417249: Foda-se
ssjgod: tem alguém mais forte que os guerreiros da terra ? não
Guest_30611418320: f
Guest_86621418154: quero que melhorem essa animação
Guest_98801417249: Foda-se
carlabeatriz: e pq todo mundo acha que um universo é do bem e o outro do mal?
gakazi: tem o paikohan
gakazi: eu n acho isso
Guest_25981417614: eu ja curti a pagina
ssjgod: Paikuhan esta morto
Guest_72711418152: aposto bardock no time do champa.
Guest_30611418320: O broly podia tar vivo no 6 universo
Caster
animefnd: http://www.animesdigital.com.br/DVDs-de-ANIME-Lancamentos/DVD-Dragon-Ball/Dragon-Ball-Todas-Colecoes.html
gakazi: claro q n
lucas1603: gelton qual é o seu personagem preferido de db??
ssjgod: Paikuhan treina no outro mundo ta morto
gakazi: e dai
weto: eu penso que quando Bardock derrotou o antepassado de freeza, ele lutava com freeza do universo 6, e ele não morreu contra freeza, só de alguma forma, foi para o universo 6. Seria possível?
gakazi: ele e do 7 universo
Guest_98801417249: aaa
Guest_72711418152: o broly não existe para o akira.
Guest_86621418154: kamehameha
Guest_98801417249: aaa
gakazi: broly e apenas de filme
gakazi: porra
MaGyunia: o time do 7º universo é fácil, Goku, Vegeta e Gohan tão garantidos, depois se Gotenks for fusionado vai o Piccolo, senão vai Goten e Trunks, um time de 5 Saiya-jins
gakazi: n ta incluso na serie
ssjgod: Piccolo>>>Paikuhan vlw flw
gakazi: n kra
carlabeatriz: "tentando conquistar o azul do céu, trazendo na mente o sonho de caçador".
Guest_58801417572: talvez
gakazi: Paikuhan luto de igual pra igual com o goku
MaGyunia: não vai aparecer mais Bardock nem Paiku-han nem Brolly que nunca existiu nem Trunks do futuro nem Tarble nunca mais
Guest_25981417614: piccolo n vai majim buu rsrs
Guest_98801417249: Paikuhan é filler viado
ssjgod: lutou contra um Goku ssj1 até o Piccolo faria melhor
gakazi: sei n
gakazi: goku ssj 2
porcino: O Time do 6º universo pode ser muito bem Bardock, Freeza, Goku, Vegeta e Majinboo
carlabeatriz: Mas será que todos poderão participar? Ou seja, será que gente morta pode entrar no torneior?
gakazi: na vdd
ssjgod: ssj2 sem os raios ?
mcgame20: Thunks do futuro talvez e Tarble tb ja que ele ja foi mencionado
ssjgod: não
gakazi: pq bardock kra
gakazi: ta drogado
Guest_79371417781: kkk
gakazi: kkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: gohan vc já foi foda
ssjgod: Bardock é zoeira só pode kkkkkkkkkk
gakazi: gohan ta mo lixao
gakazi: qdo era novo podia ser mais foda q geral
mcgame20: Gohan só se ele volta-se a treinar
gakazi: mas viro um bosta
Hellspawn28 wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
shinmaru wrote:
And Dragon Ball is a action anime not horror anime like Berserk
Why can't it do both? The introduction of Cell in Dragon Ball Z was heavily atmospheric. The manner in which the audience is shown something is what leaves a lasting impression.
The scene where Cell absorbs that person in Ginger Town was pretty gross, but that was only once really. I feel like DBZ should not be horror since the series was always a action adventure series with comedy and sci-fi elements in it . Besides I still feel like Super will start going for a serious tone once ROF happens and possible into U6 as well.
Back from a few days deliberately refraining from posting (writing way too much and repeating myself over and over on too many issues).
The later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ did have a dark tone to it, but it's in the middle, they can't be called or deemed nor comic (despite numerous instances of comic/random(ness)/non-sense relief, nor horror stories either. There's no clear, official distinction in the manga, it's all Dragon Ball, but they deliberately went for a clear distinction between the end of Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr.'s arcs to the arrival of Raditz, since that marks the introduction of warriors from OUTSIDE Earth, also presenting us with the fact that Goku's freakish strength and endurance, along with his tail (and "ability" to go Oozaru), seen throughout DB, has actually to do directly with the fact that he's an alien belonging to a long-lost race of gifted warriors who just happened to work/have worked for a galactic, genocidal tyrant who was in control of a large chunk of the North part of the Universe. The ominousness/seriousness/drama of these concepts, along with the more serious tone and insane fighting and skyrocketting power levels in the Saiya-jin arc, ultimately leading up to the departure to Namek and the final showdown with Freeza's soldiers and Freeza himself in the Freeza arc, made DBZ achieve, at certain points, a degree of darkness that made the general public bring psychiatrists over to analyze just how this stuff was affecting kids' and teenagers' behavior at the peak of its fever, when everyone between the ages of 10 to 20 devoured the series, back in the 80's and 90's. It's far, far away from being as bloody and dark as a numerous lists of anime/manga series, but it does have NUMEROUS instances of extreme violence (Piccolo kills two brothers with a piercing wave of demonic light, drilling a hole in both of them, after which one of them spits out blood more than once, Vegeta ruthlessly executes his comrade, Nappa rips Tenshinhan's arm off with a brutal punch, Ginyu drills a hole in his chest, Freeza rips Nail's arm off, Dodoria kills Muuri by breaking his neck, after he brutally slaughters a number of warrior-type Namek-sei-jins, Freeza horribly tortures Vegeta and pierces his heart, Freeza makes Krillin brutally blow up in front of his best friends, Zarbon gives Vegeta a brutal beating, Vegeta ruthlessly executes a numerous amount of Freeza's low and top soldiers, Vegeta drills a hole through Zarbon, who squirts blood from it, Dr. Gero drills a hole through Yamcha's chest, after which the latter spouts blood from it, Cell absorbs tens of thousands of humans through his tail and later kills thousands of people in the islands, he powers up with the aura consisting of the screaming humans he horribly absorbed, Cell mercilessly annihilates an entire army of helpless human soldiers, Cell blows a hole right through Piccolo's chest after he brutally breaks his neck, Yakon brutally devours two minions, Majin Buu blows up Babidi's head, after which the latter's body still moves, Super Buu annihilates - almost - every single human on the face of Earth with a single martial arts move, etc.)
DB initially started out as a comic set of random tales about a strong kid with monkey traits, but Toriyama eventually, at some point, reached the darkest recesses of his mind and made the series and events gradually evolve to - and to basically summarize the second half of my previous paragraph - portray evil-incarnate demons bent on conquering the Earth (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), genocidal maniacal aliens bent on attaining immortality and ruling the entire Universe (Vegeta in his early days, Freeza), insanely powerful cyborgs bent on killing Goku and exterminating Earth and every single of its inhabitants (Cell) and magically-created creatures whose only purpose is to destroy everyone and everything in sight (Kid Buu). All of these were full-fledged charismatic psychotic villains, Piccolo Daimao is the definition of evil and, along with his sons, kills an enormous amount of people, Vegeta is a smaller version of Freeza when he's first introduced, a ruthless extremely powerful warrior with absolutely no sympathy towards life and a mass murderer, Freeza has directly and indirectly killed and enslaved countless races and planets and performs genocides on a frequent basis, Cell has no sympathy towards life except his own and sees no problem in absorbing at least tens of thousands of humans in a HORRIFIC way through his tail or killing thousands of people just to try to flush out #18 from the islands, and Kid Buu probably doesn't even understand the concepts of "good" and "evil" or the difference between them, he just destroys everything with his massive power because that's what he does.
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garfield15 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:
-About the the new ending-
Funniest thing about changing the ending is that the opening is what sucks.
The ending is awesome. The opening is bad and they will keep it until the end. They will probably just change some clips like they did with Kai.
Exactly. The first "round" of Kai from 2009 to 2011, while retaining the same opening theme, had a total of four different animation sequences in the second half, one for each arc that was running at the time (one for the Saiya-jin arc, one for the Freeza arc, one for the Jinzouningen arc and one for the Cell arc). It would seem more than likely that DBSuper as a TV series will do the same and do some tweaks to the animation of the opening (although we do get hints to both the Freeza arc - Vegeta and Goku fighting the Freeza army-armored soldiers - and the 6th Universe arc - the appearance of Champa and his attendant), besides a mere change to the silhouette seen when the episode title is shown (in the Beerus arc we obviously get Beerus, in the Freeza arc we'll obviously get Freeza and one could only speculate on what we'll get by the 6th Universe arc, but it could be Champa or some other, real main villain from the 6th Universe).
All of this time we've been talking as if there wasn't going to be anything BEYOND the 6th Universe arc in DBSuper as a series, which would have some similarities with GT (also three main arcs and a much lower number of episodes when compared to DB and DBZ), but until we get official info or get to the point of the conclusion of the 6th Universe arc there's no way to tell whether or not they'll go beyond that, perhaps even jumping out of the 10 year gap between the defeat of Kid Buu and the last 3 episodes of DBZ that we seen to be "stuck" in in the 2008 Special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper.
Our previous estimates seem to be accurate, the Beerus arc's retelling of the events of BoG will take about 12 episodes, after which we'll most likely get two smoother episodes (where I'd really like to see some stuff and events which happened off-screen at some point in-between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events) building up to the Freeza arc, which should also be completed within about 12/14 episodes. It could thus be speculated that we should be moving on the 6th Universe arc by episode 24/26.
The length of the 6th Universe arc in terms of number of episodes is a total mystery, but taking into account that for a number of reasons it will certainly be the longest one, and if DBSuper does end at its conclusion, the series should last/run for no longer than 56/60 episodes; I just can't see the 6th Universe arc stretching out so much as the arcs in DB and DBZ, back in the 80's and 90's there was the entire immensity of filler material which comprised about 50% of the anime (sometimes even entire arcs, like the Garlic Jr. one).
What I would REALLY like to see, and this absolutely needs to happen, is Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God himself, his and Goku's decision to train under Whis at the latter's request or otherwise, and Freeza training. These three events "happened" off-screen at some point in-between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the movies' version of events, we NEED to see them on-screen in DBSuper. Taking two or three episodes to cover it would be much, much better than "wasting" them in smoother stuff with no real deep meaning or interest.
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Back from a few days deliberately refraining from posting (writing way too much and repeating myself over and over on too many issues).
The later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ did have a dark tone to it, but it's in the middle, they can't be called or deemed nor comic (despite numerous instances of comic/random(ness)/non-sense relief, nor horror stories either. There's no clear, official distinction in the manga, it's all Dragon Ball, but they deliberately went for a clear distinction between the end of Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr.'s arcs to the arrival of Raditz, since that marks the introduction of warriors from OUTSIDE Earth, also presenting us with the fact that Goku's freakish strength and endurance, along with his tail (and "ability" to go Oozaru), seen throughout DB, has actually to do directly with the fact that he's an alien belonging to a long-lost race of gifted warriors who just happened to work/have worked for a galactic, genocidal tyrant who was in control of a large chunk of the North part of the Universe. The ominousness/seriousness/drama of these concepts, along with the more serious tone and insane fighting and skyrocketting power levels in the Saiya-jin arc, ultimately leading up to the departure to Namek and the final showdown with Freeza's soldiers and Freeza himself in the Freeza arc, made DBZ achieve, at certain points, a degree of darkness that made the general public bring psychiatrists over to analyze just how this stuff was affecting kids' and teenagers' behavior at the peak of its fever, when everyone between the ages of 10 to 20 devoured the series, back in the 80's and 90's. It's far, far away from being as bloody and dark as a numerous lists of anime/manga series, but it does have NUMEROUS instances of extreme violence (Piccolo kills two brothers with a piercing wave of demonic light, drilling a hole in both of them, after which one of them spits out blood more than once, Vegeta ruthlessly executes his comrade, Nappa rips Tenshinhan's arm off with a brutal punch, Ginyu drills a hole in his chest, Freeza rips Nail's arm off, Dodoria kills Muuri by breaking his neck, after he brutally slaughters a number of warrior-type Namek-sei-jins, Freeza horribly tortures Vegeta and pierces his heart, Freeza makes Krillin brutally blow up in front of his best friends, Zarbon gives Vegeta a brutal beating, Vegeta ruthlessly executes a numerous amount of Freeza's low and top soldiers, Vegeta drills a hole through Zarbon, who squirts blood from it, Dr. Gero drills a hole through Yamcha's chest, after which the latter spouts blood from it, Cell absorbs tens of thousands of humans through his tail and later kills thousands of people in the islands, he powers up with the aura consisting of the screaming humans he horribly absorbed, Cell mercilessly annihilates an entire army of helpless human soldiers, Cell blows a hole right through Piccolo's chest after he brutally breaks his neck, Yakon brutally devours two minions, Majin Buu blows up Babidi's head, after which the latter's body still moves, Super Buu annihilates - almost - every single human on the face of Earth with a single martial arts move, etc.)
DB initially started out as a comic set of random tales about a strong kid with monkey traits, but Toriyama eventually, at some point, reached the darkest recesses of his mind and made the series and events gradually evolve to - and to basically summarize the second half of my previous paragraph - portray evil-incarnate demons bent on conquering the Earth (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), genocidal maniacal aliens bent on attaining immortality and ruling the entire Universe (Vegeta in his early days, Freeza), insanely powerful cyborgs bent on killing Goku and exterminating Earth and every single of its inhabitants (Cell) and magically-created creatures whose only purpose is to destroy everyone and everything in sight (Kid Buu). All of these were full-fledged charismatic psychotic villains, Piccolo Daimao is the definition of evil and, along with his sons, kills an enormous amount of people, Vegeta is a smaller version of Freeza when he's first introduced, a ruthless extremely powerful warrior with absolutely no sympathy towards life and a mass murderer, Freeza has directly and indirectly killed and enslaved countless races and planets and performs genocides on a frequent basis, Cell has no sympathy towards life except his own and sees no problem in absorbing at least tens of thousands of humans in a HORRIFIC way through his tail or killing thousands of people just to try to flush out #18 from the islands, and Kid Buu probably doesn't even understand the concepts of "good" and "evil" or the difference between them, he just destroys everything with his massive power because that's what he does.
Dude, you need to work on using paragraphs. Not trying to pick a fight, but a lot of your posts are gigantic walls of text that are very often hard to read.
Sorry, I'm gradually adapting my way of writing to make it more readable over time. I'm all about content, and I do think everybody already knows I tend to overwrite and repeat myself over and over on a number of issues. Can't help it, but I'm working on it. I hope the almost entire lack of paragraphs didn't prevent you from reading my thoughts, at least. Whenever I come up with huge posts I'll try to break them down between several paragraphs to make it easier to read. At least you intended to read this last one, hope you could despite the difficulties presented.
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Doctor. wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:
Perhaps this is said before, but is Gregory canon or not? He appears in the anime (super) not BOG or manga.
There is no "canon". He was designed by Toriyama himself and appears in the Z anime, Kai, the 2008 JSAT special (along with its manga counterpart) and Super. Take that as you will.
I agree, "cannoness" is a concept which is hard to describe. It's much easier to just theorize that "canon" is whatever doesn't generate plot holes/inconsistencies or contradicts the stream/sequence of events from DB and DBZ (which would include, just for example's sake, Movie 9). I guess that's the best way to look at it.
Araki wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
Also this. Super so far is fully a project of Toei, much like Dragon Ball/Z anime was, only with having no Toriyama's manga as base, so inclining towards GT.
They're not doing new BoG and RoF arcs from scratch, they're adaptations from movies where Toriyama directly worked, so the movies work like the manga worked for DB/Z, as an original source, while GT was pretty much 100% Toei's baby.
Even is Toriyama is now entirely focused on the U6 arc (which i believe to be the case), they're still using tidbits that didn't make the cut, Toriyama's revelations from interviews, adding foreshadowing, etc. They know where they are and where they want to go thanks to his involvement. So i think that, for Toei, the production has been much more like DB/Z than GT. If somehow the show goes beyond the U6 arc and Toriyama gets a lot less involved, than it would be inclining towards GT, even if Toei keeps building up on his ideas (coming up with new universes, etc).
That's why GT was so awful despite its somewhat large potential. It was made right after DBZ ended, and Toriyama made it clear he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible (hence the unsatisfactory ending to the series in those last 3 episodes) due to the fact he was - understandably - tired of supporting the pressure of having to consistently and constantly come up with ideas for new characters, stages and events on an incessant basis for a decade; therefore, no Toriyama in GT, which automatically decreased the series' quality. It was also made for commercial purposes, took on the worst of DBZ had by the Majin Buu arc and on none of what made all the arcs of DB and DBZ so fantastic, and got totally or partially rid of previously main characters and warriors with fantastic backgrounds. These are GT's main flaws, in my view.
No matter what they come up with in DBSuper, it will not only be superior to GT, it also needs to be looked at and analyzed from a totally new perspective. It's being done 18 years after the last series ended, with all that entails and is partially based on/retelling the stories of two theatrical features from two years and a few months ago, respectively. The only way there's some distant and faint similarity between GT and DBSuper is the fact that by the exploration of the 6th Universe arc they'll also go outside of Earth and look for a new set of Dragon Balls as well (and the potential length of the TV series, in terms of number of episodes and arcs).
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I said last week I wasn't going to use numbers, and I'll keep that position, I'll just generate an another, slightly updated personal list (and this time I'll go beyond the Majin Buu arc and DBSuper and include some warriors from the Cell arc):
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Base Goku with abilities and power of SSJG
7 - Base Vegeta with abilities and power of SSJG
8 - Super Vegitto (hypothetical Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation)
9 - Super Vegitto (hypothetical Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation)
10 - Super Vegitto (Super Saiya-jin)
11 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
12 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
13 - Vegeta (Super Saiya-jin 2 with power boost against Beerus)
14 - Ultimate Gohan
15 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
16 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
17 - Super Buu
18 - Kid Buu
19 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
20 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
21 - Evil Buu
22 - Fat Majin Buu
23 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
24 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
25 - Super Saiya-jin 2 teen Gohan
26 - Super Saiya-jin 2 adult Gohan
27 - Cell (Perfect, after explosion)
28 - Dabura
29 - Strongest Kaioshin
30 - Dai Kaioshin
31 - Kibitoshin
32 - Female Kaioshin
33 - Moustached Kaioshin
34 - Kaioshin
35 - Cell (Perfect, using all of his power)
36 - Cell (Perfect)
37 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
38 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power teen Gohan
39 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Mirai no Trunks
40 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Goku
41 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
42 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Goku
43 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Mirai no Trunks
44 - Piccolo
45 - Cell (second stage)
46 - Cell (first stage after absorbing tens of thousands of humans)
47 - #16
48 - Piccolo (after fusing with Kami)
49 - #17
50 - #18
51 - Cell Juniors
52 - Cell (first stage when he first appears)
53 - #17 (future version)
54 - #18 (future version)
55 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
56 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against #19)
57 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Mirai no Trunks)
58 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks
59 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
60 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Gohan
61 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
62 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
63 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Freeza)
64 - Freeza (against Mirai no Trunks)
65 - Freeza (using 100% of his power)
The way anyone approaches their own lists differs, but what matters is that at the end we all have a better idea on where each warrior introduced in DBSuper/BoG/Fukkatsu no F stands by adding them to the Majin Buu arc levels of power.
I've deliberately kept off a few warriors or some of their stages from potentially canon Movies, and obviously non-canon warriors, like Super Saiya-jin Gogeta, Brolly, #13, Cooler, Super Saiya-jin Bardock, Janenba or Hatchiyakku).
Not going to get into the gaps between each warrior either, except for a few exceptions not present in the list itself: Base Vegitto is about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Whis is about 1,5 of Beerus, Piccolo is just slightly stronger than semi-perfect Cell, adult Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan is just slightly stronger than Dabura, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta with his rage boost against Beerus is slightly below the two strongest versions of Super Buu but still far below Super Vegitto, and any seen or hypothetical form of Super Vegitto is far below Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and Golden Freeza, and all of these are just a little over a half of the strength of Beerus, hence about one third of Whis'.
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I meant to comment on the episode right after it ended running, but was too tired.
Everybody already pointed out the main aspects we can extract from this episode, so I'm not going to do it.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Not overly enjoying how Super's trying to over dramatize everything. Bluma being slapped and Vegeta's reaction were better when it was like a kneejerk reaction from Beerus and an instant snapping on Vegeta's part. Likewise, Super Saiyan God and the ritual being treated as a really big deal with an overly "holy" power up scene flies in the face of everything about it being appearing exaggerated and underwhelming as Toriyama intended. Not saying I hate these changes, but it's disappointing when BOG just hit the points so much better.
"Super Saiyan" Videl is a thing now too...I don't really have an opinion on that.
I agree, but I think the fact that they're stretching certain specific events which we've seen in BoG (and some others which we haven't and were added just for the same purpose) is because in a TV series of episodes they're deliberately making everything last longer in order to fill the episode(s); I'm not referring to filler material, which was used and overused in DBZ, I'm just saying that most of the stuff that happened in BoG in one minute or around that takes half an episode in DBSuper, in some cases.
I'm not criticizing that or this episode in particular, far from it, I'm just pointing out that we had an entire episode dedicated to both "versions" of the ritual (the failed one and the Videl one). That's about twenty minutes of covering something which took about five in the movie's version of events.
I've got to admit that in this particular case - and in some others it's the other way around - I preferred BoG's version of the ritual than DBSuper's. In the episode, everybody holds hands just the same, but they "channel" it to Goku instead of having him hold hands with the others just the same. Besides, it's like Goku stands there for two or three minutes waiting for something to happen (as in, "nope, still can't feel s***, gotta wait for another two minutes standing still to drag out the episode). I didn't appreciate the fact that the first "signs" that the ritual was going to be successful and actually produce the intended results, or any results whatsoever, came from Videl.
There's something wrong with the pacing in the episodes of DBSuper, and you realize this especially when it comes to see the series' version of the exact same events seen in BoG; I'm not entirely sure what it is, but it probably or most likely just has to do directly with the fact that they're stretching out things so much both to fill and pack the episodes some more and to make it so that the timing is just right for the best scene from each episode is ultimately seen at its very end.
Once again, they also stretched it deliberately so that the climax of the events depicted in the episode is reached exactly as it's being cut: Goku's ultimate and final appearance as a Super Saiya-jin God.
The best single scene from the episode was - again - one of the scenes we saw in the previous' episode preview, which was Goku slowly turning his head as a SSJG in that badass manner. Now THAT came close to some of the best stuff in DBZ, and that's saying a lot.
Also, Videl can't turn Super Saiya-jin, no matter what the effects of the ritual and/or the lightning may be and regardless of the fact her eyes are already blue. In order to be a Super Saiya-jin, you've gotta be a SAIYA-JIN first. :P
Saiyan007 wrote:
That transformation was the best transformation in the History of DB
That was sick :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: The opera music and chanting made it even better :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
That's pushing it a little bit. You can't compare whatever they come up with in DBSuper with some of the best transformation moments in DBZ, which in turn comprised SOME of the greatest moments from the entire series back in the 80's and 90's. The seriousness/desperation/drama present in, just for example's sake, Goku's first transformation into Super Saiya-jin on Namek is a billion times superior to Goku's transformation into Super Saiya-jin God, regardless of whether you're talking about BoG's version of it or DBSuper's. I pointed this out before, but the original, Shunsuke Kikuchi background music for DB and DBZ was actually one of the essential parts in what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ so fantastic. In the case of the very first time we see a Super Saiya-jin, although the piece of music they chose had been used since the Saiya-jin arc, it's like it was chosen specifically for that scene, as it fits it perfectly in terms of drama.
On another note, the fact that this time around, and as opposed to BoG, neither Bulma nor anyone else mentions Tarble when thinking about an additional Saiya-jin doesn't mean he's been "erased" from "canonness"; until further notice, nothing in the 2008 Special makes it impossible for it to have happened or for Tarble to exist, although, as I expected, in DBSuper they chose not to pick up on him as a character because they saw him lacking the potential to be an interesting character and someone who should be (re)introduced in the series. Basically, and to summarize, Tarble and the 2008 Special still exist, or CAN exist, but they're deliberately ignoring it when it comes to DBSuper.
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Blade wrote:
3) Was Videl a Super Saiyan, or was she merely reflecting the aura of others? It's interesting to note that her eyes don't change. Also - if Videl was a Super Saiyan during this ritual imply that Pan was indeed a Super Saiyan baby?
She wasn't a Super Saiya-jin. In order to be a Super SAIYA-JIN, you've got to be a SAIYA-JIN, or at least a half-human, half-Saiya-jin hybrid first of all.
Chuquita wrote:
ShinGaijin wrote:
You can watch the whole scene here guys :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtcSjbzUcaM
God, it was...wow..fantastic, really.So much emotion.
That snow! :3
I really liked seeing that snow, and the thunderstorm. Non-sunny-weather is so rare in Dragon Ball because most of the series takes place in May.
I kind of liked that as a change/addition to the ritual when compared to BoG's version of the ritual's effects on the environment. I guess the ritual is so powerful that, just like so many power-ups throughout DBZ, produce violent and absolutely unexpected effects in nature, at least in the surrounding area. It doesn't hold any particular specific meaning to me, though, it doesn't really hint at anything specifically, it's just another instance of an extreme power-up resulting in extreme phenomenons in the environment. Nothing new there, except for the fact that we saw rain, snow and sun in a sequence in a matter of a few seconds.
ANOTHER event in which I preferred BoG's version when compared to DBSuper's is the discovery by Gohan and everyone else that Videl is pregnant. It was almost perfect in BoG, in DBSuper it was downplayed a lot, it made it seem it wasn't that big a deal.
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garfield15 wrote:
I'm slightly disappointed nobody pointed out the "Gomen" moment. That was hysterical
Yeah, as I was watching it I kind of smiled at that. Name puns for specific races of groups of warriors in the Dragonball franchise is one of the most well-known characteristics of the series, and one could argue that it also applies to Goku's family: Goku could be seen as a shorter version of "Jigoku" (Hell), Gohan also means "food" or, better put, "meal", or "meal time", "Goten", as far as I know, refers to/is connected to "Heaven", and "gomen" means "sorry", so if they really went for Gomen as the name for Gohan and Videl's daughter, which they won't, then all, or almost all of the names in the family would have their own double meaning or at least hint at something, although, unlike in the case of all the others puns for different races and groups of warriors in the franchise, this sequence wouldn't really follow a solid logic.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
I'm agreeing with VintageSaiyan here, but I'm not pointing it out to be mean or anything. I just want you to know that.
I appreciate the long posts, but the way they're presented (when of what seems to be your average length so far) can be extremely overwhelming. I'm on a 42 inch monitor, if I remember correctly, and also have the screen set at the max resolution. Yet, two of your "paragraphs" still take up 90% of the screen, so I can just imagine what they look like to people with smaller monitors. I'm not asking you to stop writing en masse, but just break it up abit. :lol:
Like I said, I'm gradually adapting my writing style, or at least the way I present it, as I receive the critics. I won't diminish the amount of stuff that I write, nor the way I go in-depth into any details, though, but I'll try to make everything more "readable" and pleasant to the eye. I know I write huge amounts of text, I know I repeat myself over and over when expressing the same exact thoughts on many issues, and I know I typically address numerous different topics within the same post, sometimes diverting a little bit from the main point being discussed by others in the thread; I also know that everybody has obviously identified all of these traits I have when I post, as I display them almost every single time, but I'm also somewhat reassured by the fact that at least other fans do display at least the intention to read my posts, if not in their entirety, at least partially, which is important to me and perhaps the main reason why I tend to write and repeat myself so much.
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JoeCapricorn wrote:
Power level speculation on Pan.
I think she might be the youngest Super Saiyan in the series. It even seemed to cause Videl to turn blonde (although that was also partially because of the vast amount of golden glow going on), but the initial energy burst emerged from her womb. That spark came from Pan. Which means she could have become a Super Saiyan before even being born.
The question is, if the dialog mentions five Super Saiyans as being needed for a Super Saiyan God. It could also be possible that being surrounded by other Super Saiyans channeling their ki into Goku would have briefly transformed Pan. Of course, we won't know for sure, since there isn't any ultrasound showing us an embryonic Super Saiyan... but here is my shot in the dark: Pan is either born as a Super Saiyan, or undergoes the transformation at a very young age (younger than Goten).
The ritual calls for 5 Saiya-jin, not 5 SUPER Saiya-jin. Videl doesn't turn Super Saiya-jin, you need to be a SAIYA-JIN, or at leas a half-human, half-Saiya-jin hybrid to do that. And I wouldn't count on Pan being a Super Saiya-jin before being even born. She might have the potential to become one even at a young age after she's born, but in order to transform into a Super Saiya-jin you need to possess a lot of power, sapience, training and martial arts experience, I don't see an unborn fetus going Super Saiya-jin, that's just too far-fetched a scenario to me.
I attribute Videl's golden hair to the amount of lighting - especially golden one - going on at the time, to which we can add her natural blue eyes; all put together makes it feel, or rather put, seem that Videl has turned into a Super Saiya-jin, but that's just absolutely impossible.
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Alruneia wrote:
I can't believe how long that ritual took; half an episode of transformation! But I did really enjoy it. :clap:
I wonder, since everyone else was, if Pan was a Super Saiyan. So she already has the ability to transform. Youngest Super Saiyan ever! :P (Hoping for a similar story with Bulla sometime later in Super, it'd be a good way for Vegeta to ascend)
All in all this episode was very enjoyable. I could see myself rewatch it plenty of times.
Why would she be a Super Saiya-jin? She's a fetus. Yeah, she's a Saiya-jin (a half-breed), so she technically has the potential to become a Super Saiya-jin even at a very young age after she's born, given the proper circumstances, training, martial arts experience, etc., just like the others, but I just don't see a fetus, who has none of these traits nor even conscience or sapience, becoming a Super Saiya-jin.
It seems that a lot of fans are making some sort of connection between the fact that Videl's hair seems golden during the ritual and the fact that Pan, who's inside her, is a Saiya-jin, but there's no logical link there. Videl can't be a Super Saiya-jin because she's not even a SAIYA-JIN to begin with, and as far as Pan goes, I've already said what I had to say on the issue.
Videl LOOKS like a Super Saiya-jin because of all the golden lightning going on at the time of the ritual and because of her own natural blue eyes, that's it.
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MCDaveG wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
I'm agreeing with VintageSaiyan here, but I'm not pointing it out to be mean or anything. I just want you to know that.
I appreciate the long posts, but the way they're presented (when of what seems to be your average length so far) can be extremely overwhelming. I'm on a 42 inch monitor, if I remember correctly, and also have the screen set at the max resolution. Yet, two of your "paragraphs" still take up 90% of the screen, so I can just imagine what they look like to people with smaller monitors. I'm not asking you to stop writing en masse, but just break it up abit. :lol:
Like I said, I'm gradually adapting my writing style, or at least the way I present it, as I receive the critics. I won't diminish the amount of stuff that I write, nor the way I go in-depth into any details, though, but I'll try to make everything more "readable" and pleasant to the eye. I know I write huge amounts of text, I know I repeat myself over and over when expressing the same exact thoughts on many issues, and I know I typically address numerous different topics within the same post, sometimes diverting a little bit from the main point being discussed by others in the thread; I also know that everybody has obviously identified all of these traits I have when I post, as I display them almost every single time, but I'm also somewhat reassured by the fact that at least other fans do display at least the intention to read my posts, if not in their entirety, at least partially, which is important to me and perhaps the main reason why I tend to write and repeat myself so much.
I had this issue as well, as a fellow non-native. It's just about finding the fitting words to describe somthing without dancing around the hot pot and adress issues that matter.
Also, I think that writing huge wall of text in the internet is waste of time, as there are more important things to do with the time in my life, so I don't even read huge walls of text, so yeah :)
Thumbs up MaGyunia and good luck with your progress.
Yeah, I'll be more careful in the future. The amount of thoughts won't change if I continue coming up with huge texts addressing a number of different issues within the same post, but whenever that happens from now on I'll try to at least make the entire huge thing more readable and pleasant to the eye.
At least the critics have proven to me that fans do intend to read everything or least part of what I write, despite my numerous repetitions on many issues, which reassures me.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
Videl was a not a ssj here. Not even fetus Pan.
They were going for yellow light color for the others, so give another color to Videl would be stupid. The same reason why they used SSJ Gohan, and not Mystic Gohan.
Animations purposes, that it.
If anything just shows that Pan has the potential to turn ssj too. You don't need 6 super saiyans to turn God, just 6 pure saiyans.
Exactly. First of all, some fans seem to believe that the ritual calls for 6 Super Saiya-jin, when we've known for over two years that what we need is 6 Saiya-jin. It just so happens that all Saiya-jin who are part of the ritual in BoG and in DBSuper are Super Saiya-jin. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten are freakish occurrences in the Saiya-jin race due to the constant fighting against insanely powerful villains throughout DBZ, before any of them turned Super Saiya-jin legend had it that one appeared only once every thousand years. The Saiya-jin who performed the ritual in Planet Vegeta weren't Super Saiya-jin, they were just regular Saiya-jin.
garfield15 wrote:
I don't think Videl was actually turning Super Saiyan since her eyes didn't change color, nor did her hair get spiky. It was just a cool visual effect to say to the audience "Hey kids, there's a Saiyan in that belly and it's helping mom out"
It's getting tiring to repeat the same thing over and over. Videl CANNOT turn Super SAIYA-JIN because she's not a SAIYA-JIN to start with. Regarding Pan inside her, despite the fact that she might have the potential to turn Super Saiya-jin at an early age just like Trunks or Goten, she most certainly didn't turn Super Saiya-jin inside Videl. She's a FETUS. I don't really see a fetus without any knowledge, sapience or martial arts training achieving a Super Saiya-jin transformation just because it's got Saiya-jin blood. She's not even a full-fledged, completed being yet.
There are certain requirements to turn into a Super Saiya-jin, you know? It took warriors like Goku and Vegeta, who have been deemed "fighting geniuses" on numerous occasions by each other and others as well in DBZ, extreme training, power increase, time, the right circumstances and explosions of anger as full-fledged adults to reach the legendary transformation. Sorry, but a f****** FETUS can't do it.
Videl in there works just as in BoG - whose version of the ritual + transformation I prefer over DBSuper's -, as a mere carrier for Pan, who IS indeed a Saiya-jin, and that's what the ritual calls for.
The fact that Videl gains, or appears to gain golden hair has to do with the extreme effects the transformation/power-up have in the natural environment, including those standing nearby (especially her, as she's being part of the ritual itself). It could be argued that part of the immense Super Saiya-jin energy being passed on in there during the ritual somehow affected Videl, but she didn't turn Super Saiya-jin, nor can she, nor will she have heightened powers after the ritual, nor did Pan transform either.
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DragonHermit wrote:
Wth is this I hear about Videl going SSJ? She did not go Super Saiyan. Her hair just looked like that because of the Golden Ki surrounding the group. She and Trunks also naturally have lighter eyes unlike Goku and Vegeta.
Some fans are indeed making that claim, claiming the fact that Pan is a Saiya-jin was the catalyst, going as far as to say that Pan turned SUPER Saiya-jin as a fetus. I've addressed that before in this and in another thread and I'll do so again a bit later on.
The fact that Videl SEEMS like a Super Saiya-jin can be explained either by the extreme effects such a transformation/power-up has on the natural environment, or by the fact that there's quite a massive amount of Super Saiya-jin golden energy going around at that time during the ritual, which adds to her own natural blue eyes.
She did NOT turn Super Saiya-jin, simply because she's not a SAIYA-JIN.
Chiki wrote:
You guys are funny. "OMG HOW CAN VIDEL TURN INTO A SUPER SAIYAN WHEN SHES A HUMAN BEING?!"
Let's start this from the basics.
What makes Saiyans go Super Saiyan? They have the power of a Saiyan, so they can go Super Saiyan.
If Videl somehow gains access to a Saiyan's power, I don't see why she can't go Super Saiyan.
Simply being a Saiya-jin doesn't mean you can automatically go Super Saiya-jin. Before any living Saiya-jin could do it by the Jinzouningen arc, it was quite a legendary, massive feat.
There are quite a few requirements to undergo a Super Saiya-jin transformation: quite a lot of power, martial arts training, the right circumstances (an explosion of anger or frustration, etc.) and some special gift or potential, traits who Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten all possess and develop. I can definitely see Pan becoming a Super Saiya-jin at an early age like Trunks and Goten, but at this point she's not even a complete being yet, she's got no sapience, no knowledge, no training, no consciousness, there's absolutely no way she can undergo a legendary transformation which took Goku and Vegeta desperate circumstances and an immense amount of work to achieve while she's a fucking FETUS, sorry.
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Again, the ritual calls for 6 Saiya-jin, not necessarily 6 SUPER Saiya-jin. The ritual would work even if it was performed by Raditz, Bardock, King Vegeta, Tullece, Tarble and Nappa (if they were "pure-hearted", that is). There's no need to be a Super Saiya-jin in order to be a successful part of the ritual.
There seems to be some confusion among a few fans about what the ritual calls for. It calls for Saiya-jins. Pan is a Saiya-jin. It doesn't call necessarily for Super Saiya-jins. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten just "happen" to, all of them, be able to go (several stages of) Super Saiya-jin.
I've explained in a more in-depth manner in my last two posts in this thread why neither Videl nor Pan went Super Saiya-jin. Videl is a mere carrier for a fetus with Saiya-jin blood (a soon-to-be Saiya-jin), just like she was in BoG. Pan is a fetus, she's not even a complete being yet, she lacks the power, the potential, the training, the experience, the sapience, the knowledge and the consciousness to even open her fucking eyes, let alone undergo a legendary transformation that took Goku and Vegeta years of training under desperate circumstances to achieve.
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Hey guys and everyone. This might not be the best place to talk about this, which definitely falls out of any Dragonball-related stuff, but I found nowhere else or any other way to convey the message to as many of you as possible.
Some of you might have noticed that I haven't posted here for a month and a half. I had an intellectual collapse along with several simultaneous other issues on a number of different aspects of my life. The intellectual collapse could be considered the final culmination of a process of all kinds of not-so-healthy obsessions, which, for example, resulted in the fact that, during the time I posted here, between July and September, I wrote huge walls of text, while constantly repeating myself so that nobody would forget the main points I was trying to get at - too many at the same time, too. One small part of an enormous, gigantic wave of intellectual insanity came from the fact that I had such an active part in the numerous discussions in the threads here, which I've kept, all of them, in a document for posterity, but that's really not even 1% of the reason.
For one, I'll from now on try to be less repetitive of my ideas and concepts when addressing all the issues I want to discuss about Dragonball, DBSuper in general and each episode or each specific theme, so that I may became more "readable" (not self-criticizing my way or writing or my carefully-thought and valuable ideas and concepts, just the huge amounts of texts, the excessive themes approached in the same, or in a few posts, and especially the degree to which I constantly repeat the points I really, really wanted and still want to put across.
Finally, and most importantly, I've deeply missed interacting with you in this forum, as I see it as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom. I obviously continued watching every episode as it aired in Japan in real time since I decided to quit posting, but I very deliberately chose not to continue to discuss anything with you here, for the intellectual strain it, among many other issues, produced.
The fact that I view my participation in the discussions with you, just as we did thoroughly between July and September, as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom instead of just watching everything and keeping up-to-date with all the news and leaked info, etc., led me to reverse my decision and now I'm ready to come back, although, like I said before, I'll try to adjust the levels of repetition and the amount of text and themes I'll be addressing within the same post.
I hope most of you recall the numerous, thorough discussions we had, the way I wrote and participated, all my points and concepts (if you don't, that's fine, but I know most of you do, at least a big percentage and chunk of it, and besides I have the entire thing documented with me) and I also hope that you value the fact that I missed this to the point of "giving up" on fighting it and finally decide to come back with this announcement and subsequent return to regular and normal participation in the discussions.
Watching it just doesn't quite do it, I need to feel a part of the fandom watching it and discussing it at the same exact time I do, I need to feel that I'm part of the same world we all belong to. I can assure I had a tough time after I deliberately decided to quit posting altogether. I can't do it anymore. I'm back. I missed this, and I missed you guys.
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I've just posted an announcement in the official main thread for DBSuper detailing my active comeback to the forum, and I'll right away start to make up for the time lost in my discussions and interactions with you.
I won't be able to go in-depth into everything like I did when I was fully active between July and September, but at least the main elements will be here.
I remember we were making an exercise of estimating how long the Beerus arc within DBSuper would last, and we concluded it would be over by the 10th or 12th episode. Not only did it stretch for two additional episodes, which isn't that much compared to our estimates, the entire fight between Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Hakaishin Beerus stretched out for five entire episodes, which I think was overdoing it, and you could tell that in one or two all you had was the typical power-up/screaming/mirror-image of the duo fighting comprising basically almost the entirety of the episodes.
Now that we're done with it, and as we estimated, we'll get two or three smoother episodes to make the transition to the new arc, which will be comprised most likely of the same number of episodes, although retelling Fukkatsu no F, in my opinion and that of many others, I think, deserves, needs and requires quite a lot of additional material when compared to the retelling of BoG, which was done pretty much in almost the same exact circumstances when compared to the movie, in virtually all aspects (even particular sentences, events, exchanges, words, transformations, events, blows during the fights, etc.).
I've said this before and I'd like to repeat that I, among many others, want to see a number of previously off-screen events which happened at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events, namely Vegeta reaching Super Saiya-jin God himself, Vegeta and Goku deciding to go to Beerus' place to become Whis' students and trainees, Freeza training after getting resurrected, etc. When the names of the episodes until the 18th first came out I was happy to figure out that these events will obviously all be addressed properly, and given the proper screen time in DBSuper's incoming episodes, giving me quite a nice degree of satisfaction.
Going back to Vegeta and the conclusion of the SSJG vs Beerus fight we witnessed in last week's episode, the fact that is the one who ultimately catches Goku and follows the battle he thought Goku earned closely, without moving all throughout the entire thing just goes to display and illustrate, once again, the fact that by this time he has a degree of respect towards Goku that goes beyond even the fact that he values him as a fighting rival, a fellow Saiya-jin and, to some degree, a friend. But especially, fighting respect. He showed, and will continue to show, the readiness to let Kakarotto be the one to fight the common enemy and stand on the sidelines for a while; it's like a fighting code of honor, which doesn't really belong to pure, proud Saiya-jins only. The way their relationship evolved is quite a feat and it deserves everyone's applause. They did it just the right way, and the scene in which he catches him has quite a humongous amount of significance for anybody who knows DBZ, Vegeta and Goku. The way it culminated with him hastily moving everyone aside to catch him after that insanely powerful battle just demonstrates, illustrates and portrays even further, and to a greater degree and more perfectly, just the right, exact dynamics present in the way Vegeta interacts with Goku and the degree of fighting respect he has for him - which goes both ways, and the other way around, obviously - at this point. It might have surpassed the famous scene of Vegeta finally admitting Goku is number 1 and letting him have his deserved fight against Kid Buu, which is no small feat, as we're talking one of the numerous fantastic moments in DBZ.
The interaction between Vegeta and Goku in terms of their relationship might be becoming more complex, but also more understandable and starting to make a lot more sense if we look back at the way they've always interacted throughout the numerous changes Vegeta's character and intentions go through as the arcs progressed in DBZ.
Also enjoyed, as a Vegeta fan, the fact that he's not only bent again on becoming number 1 in the Universe, he used "omae" to refer to Kakarotto instead of "kisama", he stated he'll attain (and surpass) Super Saiya-jin God by himself. Overcoming everyone in the Universe pretty much means that, yeah, you've got to surpass Super Saiya-jin God Kakarotto and Hakaishin Birusu (not to mention Whis).
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Puto wrote:
No, please DON'T show Vegeta reaching SSGSS on his own. That would completely ruin the surprise of seeing him use it against Freeza.
I wasn't talking about Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, I was talking about Super Saiya-jin God. The way it apparently works, after you undergo the ritual to become a Super Saiya-jin God, if you're gifted enough - and both Goku and Vegeta are - you're able to achieve a state in which you've absorbed all the power and abilities of the SSJG stage even in your base form, or in any other form; only after that, for some reason, did Goku and Vegeta develop the SSJGSSJ stage.
What I said I would like to watch is Vegeta's own process of becoming Super Saiya-jin God just like Goku did, so he can catch up with him and then go through the next steps seen in Fukkatsu no F. However, the only questions that remains is: will Vegeta somehow be able to turn Super Saiya-jin God by himself, or will he need, like Goku did, the help of the other Saiya-jins and go through the ritual? Not sure how they'll handle that, or even if he's going to go SSJG before attaining the Saiya-jin Beyond God stage and then the SSJGSSJG stage, but I assume he has to, as, until further notice, these are the logical steps and the sequence both he and Goku will follow/have followed.
That's actually another thing I'd like to see, you can add it to the off-screen stuff in between BoG and Fukkatsu no F: Goku and Vegeta, for some reason, deciding to develop a new stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. It's rather obvious in Fukkatsu no F that that's not the first time each of them transform into that particular stage.
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Sorry to deviate a little bit from the issues you were discussing just now, but is it me or in the last few days they made it virtually impossible to get a Fuji TV stream? All of the channels I've used, and they're numerous, have become offline, all of them, and the last time I checked, one week ago for the 14th episode, they were all fully online, working and functional. Any info on this? Are they hunting down streaming websites to tighten the grip and make it harder for fans to watch the episodes in real time?
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All throughout the retelling of the BoG events within the Beerus arc in DBSuper we've seen them keeping most of the stuff exactly the same and intact, while making some adaptations and additions here and there, and one instance of the latter is the fact that this time Beerus and Whis just went away right after the battle was over, as opposed to the movies' version, in which they hang for a while and Whis even proposes to Goku that he could be the next Hakaishin after Beerus dies, and Beerus apologizes to Bulma, etc. The fact Beerus this time didn't mention Whis is, more than his attendant, his master and the actual strongest being there is in the Universe, which him being the second one, in DBSuper, as opposed to the movie, is not proof that they changed anything. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. We'll get to see Whis training both Goku and Vegeta pretty soon in the incoming episodes, and I'm sure that at some point it'll be stated by someone that Whis is actually stronger than Beerus and his previous martial arts teacher, making him the most powerful entity there is, at least in the 7th Universe.
It all has to do with the pacing DBSuper is following, which seemed off-balance in some points, whereas in the movies you had a perfectly thought and conceived stream of events carefully planned to fit within the time restraints of theatrical feature.
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Not really sure why they're keeping the manga and the TV series versions so utterly different when it comes to the issue of Champa's introduction and actions, but I maintain my bet that Champa will only be introduced after the Freeza arc in DBSuper, in the lead-up and/or during the 6th Universe arc, since it's pretty obvious he's connected to it (either its Hakaishin, or past runner to the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a race which he lost to Beerus, thus explaining his bitterness towards the latter), so it would make perfect sense.
Would be cool, though, if we were being introduced to him just like we were to the Beerus + Whis duo in the first two or three episodes of DBSuper (ignoring BoG) as a lead-up to his full appearance as whatever he's going to be within the Dragonball universe.
irreality wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I'm back. I missed this, and I missed you guys.
Welcome Back!
I knew you were going to be one of the users among many others who would take the time to make a post welcoming me back. :wave: Thank you.
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Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Hey guys and everyone. This might not be the best place to talk about this, which definitely falls out of any Dragonball-related stuff, but I found nowhere else or any other way to convey the message to as many of you as possible.
Some of you might have noticed that I haven't posted here for a month and a half. I had an intellectual collapse along with several simultaneous other issues on a number of different aspects of my life. The intellectual collapse could be considered the final culmination of a process of all kinds of not-so-healthy obsessions, which, for example, resulted in the fact that, during the time I posted here, between July and September, I wrote huge walls of text, while constantly repeating myself so that nobody would forget the main points I was trying to get at - too many at the same time, too. One small part of an enormous, gigantic wave of intellectual insanity came from the fact that I had such an active part in the numerous discussions in the threads here, which I've kept, all of them, in a document for posterity, but that's really not even 1% of the reason.
For one, I'll from now on try to be less repetitive of my ideas and concepts when addressing all the issues I want to discuss about Dragonball, DBSuper in general and each episode or each specific theme, so that I may became more "readable" (not self-criticizing my way or writing or my carefully-thought and valuable ideas and concepts, just the huge amounts of texts, the excessive themes approached in the same, or in a few posts, and especially the degree to which I constantly repeat the points I really, really wanted and still want to put across.
Finally, and most importantly, I've deeply missed interacting with you in this forum, as I see it as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom. I obviously continued watching every episode as it aired in Japan in real time since I decided to quit posting, but I very deliberately chose not to continue to discuss anything with you here, for the intellectual strain it, among many other issues, produced.
The fact that I view my participation in the discussions with you, just as we did thoroughly between July and September, as the best way to feel somehow connected to the Dragonball fandom instead of just watching everything and keeping up-to-date with all the news and leaked info, etc., led me to reverse my decision and now I'm ready to come back, although, like I said before, I'll try to adjust the levels of repetition and the amount of text and themes I'll be addressing within the same post.
I hope most of you recall the numerous, thorough discussions we had, the way I wrote and participated, all my points and concepts (if you don't, that's fine, but I know most of you do, at least a big percentage and chunk of it, and besides I have the entire thing documented with me) and I also hope that you value the fact that I missed this to the point of "giving up" on fighting it and finally decide to come back with this announcement and subsequent return to regular and normal participation in the discussions.
Watching it just doesn't quite do it, I need to feel a part of the fandom watching it and discussing it at the same exact time I do, I need to feel that I'm part of the same world we all belong to. I can assure I had a tough time after I deliberately decided to quit posting altogether. I can't do it anymore. I'm back. I missed this, and I missed you guys.
I really missed reading this longs texts :) , i am not complaining.
You mean from me, or any long texts from whoever? Do you mean to tell me I am or was actually the only one to write those huge texts discussing so many different issues within the same post and repeating myself over and over? :lol:
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
You mean from me, or any long texts from whoever? Do you mean to tell me I am or was actually the only one to write those huge texts discussing so many different issues within the same post and repeating myself over and over? :lol:
There are at least two other users who type as much as you. lol.
Welcome back, btw. =D
I highly doubt that. Did you follow closely all my posts from July to September? Most of them were called "essays" or "huge walls of text", gigantic, etc., full of repetitions. Lots of complaints were made about the way I wrote or the fact that I addressed too many subjects in the same post, etc.
But if you're talking only about quantity, regardless of quality or other aspects and factors, then yeah, it might be possible.
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Doctor. wrote:
So it seems like the new tier list is something like Vados >/= Whis > Beerus > Champa > Golden Freeza > Goku > Vegeta.
Vados: 15,5
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Champa: 9
Golden Freeza: 8
SSB Goku: 7,5
SSB Vegeta: 7,2
I love making lists but I don't like to put it that way in terms of figures and numbers.
But yeah, a consensus has already been pretty much made, with a few exceptions here and there, but not regarding the top 5 or top 10 warriors.
I'll keep this one short, though, up to the top 25, and I'm not going to include the movies, of course, otherwise the likes of Gogeta and Janenba would be there:
1 - Vados/Whis
2 - Whis/Vados
3 - Beerus
4 - Champa
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
7 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
8 - Saiya-jin Beyond God Goku
9 - Saiya-jin Beyond God Vegeta
10 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin Goku with power of all others at first attempt of the ritual
12 - Super Vegitto
13 - Base Vegitto
14 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta with rage boost after Beerus hit Bulma
15 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan dominant)
16 - Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks dominant)
17 - Ultimate Gohan (at his peak, it's still debatable whether he's actually permanently as strong as he was when he showed up to thrash Super Buu after the unlocking ritual by Rou Dai Kaioshin, at some points his power might have dropped considerably to the point of being lowered in the ranking significantly and being overcome by at least three or four warriors at different times)
18 - Super Buu (Piccolo dominant)
19 - Super Buu
20 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
21 - Kid Buu
22 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
23 - Evil Buu
24 - Fat Majin Buu
25 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku/Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
A shame to keep the list so short. Cell, the Kaioshin, Dabura, teen Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, #17, #18, Piccolo, etc. get left out.
Seems interesting that ALL of the top 10, and even over that, are all characters and warriors presented and introduced to us in the most recent stuff (BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper), but that's only logical. If they were going to make new TV series and movies, and be serious about the plot and the fighting, power levels and serious menaces to Earth and the Universe with SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, Majin Buu and the others around, then they had to come up with even more powerful entities/antagonists (not really villains) and new stages and transformations for Goku and Vegeta to be able to keep up with them. That's the whole way DBZ worked from beginning to end: warriors keeping surpassing themselves and others until someone else displays a much greater level of power, and then that one gets overcome by a set of new warriors through new transformations, and then another, even bigger threat comes along and they need to overcome their limits yet again. The enormity of what happened throughout all of the arcs of DBZ is so great that by its last saga they were fighting one of the most powerful beings there ever was - Majin/Kid Buu -, so the next logical step would be to introduce some sort of deity whose power can't even be sensed and is in a "different dimension altogether", and, along with a few comic elements here and there, thus was Beerus created. In order to keep up with him and Whis, Goku - and Vegeta - needed to attain EVEN much stronger transformations than the insanely powerful ones before, which already had put them in the top 10 of most powerful warriors there ever were; now, Vados and Champa have a level of power comparable or even equal to the Beerus + Whis duo, and Goku and Vegeta got/will get to a stage where they can keep up with them by achieving something that goes even BEYOND Super Saiya-jin God (Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). Freeza is a freakish event, a prodigy among a race of power abnormalities, all it took to get him from a Freeza arc level of power to a degree of strength beyond what we see in a number of warriors by the Majin Buu arc is four months of training, but we can easily accept that.
This particular, restricted group of warriors is likely to never, ever be surpassed again. Goku (and Vegeta) actually got to the point where they're on par with the strongest gods/warriors there ever were in the entire history of the universe(s), far above the likes of any form of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, the Kaioshin, Piccolo, Cell, Freeza, etc.
Taking all of this into account, the likes of Ultimate Gohan, Majin Buu, Piccolo, #18, Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 2 or 3, Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2 are all but completely and absolutely outmatched, and rendered useless and obsolete fighting-wise. Not to mention the even weaker ones, those were brought to Fukkatsu no F just so that they could have their screen and fighting time, which I personally appreciate.
And again, Gohan has been completely and utterly replaced by Vegeta in terms of protagonism. We need to remember that he is or was supposed to be far beyond Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2 during the Majin Buu arc in his Ultimate form, but in the recent stuff they've thrown our way Gohan is being depicted as an I'm-always-skipping-training nerd who most likely can't even tap into the full extent of the power he displayed during the Majin Buu arc anymore by the time of BoG, Fukkastu no F or DBSuper. Vegeta, as a pure Saiya-jin, has been very deliberately chosen to be the only one among the team to be able to keep up with Goku, Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza, by taking the necessary steps to achieve the exact same stages Goku has, in the exact sequence, thus, automatically making Ultimate Gohan look like nothing in comparison; and they even made his degree of (co-)protagonism be matched by his level of power. Nevermind Yamcha, Tenshinhan or Krillin, nevermind even #18 or Piccolo or the Kaioshin, even Ultimate Gohan and fat Majin Buu are now far, far below the league in which Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Freeza, Goku and Vegeta play, to the point where any comparison is ludicrous. Make no mistake about it, Gohan will never cease to be an incredibly gifted and powerful warrior, but he'll never become relevant again in terms of power and protagonism, the way he was against Cell in the Cell Games or during the whole Majin Buu arc, and the sooner the Gohan hardcore fans accept this, the better for them.
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Doctor. wrote:
Bullza wrote:
I figured Champa would be between Freeza and Beerus. In the end either Goku or Vegeta (more likely Goku) will surpass and defeat him at which point he'll be ready to have his rematch with Beerus.
Yea, I figured that as well. But I thought that Vados would be between Beerus and Whis personally. Didn't expect her to be the strongest at all.
She could either be just as strong as Whis, slightly stronger than him, or even slightly weaker than him. Nevertheless, whatever the case actually is, she definitely seems to be above Beerus, which kind of pisses me off (well, even back when BoG came out I was a little pissed of when I learned that Whis is actually above Beerus, since he's earned his rightful place in my list of all-time favorite Dragonball characters).
We're not, and cannot be sure if Vados is stronger than Whis, she merely says she is, but Whis doesn't quite agree, and this is really all we have to base our estimates on, which isn't much; they could be just trash-talking each other. It's also funny and interesting that both brothers (Vados and Whis, Beerus and Champa) don't appear to get along too well. However, even if Vados turns out to be above Whis, which I doubt (I'd go for Whis still being stronger, or, even more likely, they're just completely matched), her student and Hakaishin, Champa, is below Whis', Beerus. We could go by that logic and postulate a scenario in which the Beerus + Whis duo is stronger than the Vados + Champa duo, with the attendants being both above the two Hakaishins, as in: Whis/Vados, Vados/Whis, Beerus, Champa. Then we get to yet another stage which is to try to figure out just where Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta fit it and compare to their power, but based on the fight we just witnessed in the recent DBSuper episodes between Beerus and SSJG Goku, I'd say they're pretty close to the two Hakaishin + attendant duos. And that's not counting the possibility of SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta working together, which is actually a scenario mentioned by Whis himself in Fukkatsu no F. Maybe, in theory (because it will never happen) SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta working and fighting together would take down Beerus, and thus automatically Champa, but how close would they come to Whis, and Vados, by the way? Would the same possibility of beating them apply? We'll probably never know. Would be cool to get some final, decisive, conclusive official information on power levels regarding all these new warriors and transformations/stages.
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Doctor. wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
In light of the new characters, I'll be updating my tiers.
Spoiler:View
You forgot Freeza in space.
We're not, and cannot be sure if Vados is stronger than Whis, she merely says she is, but Whis doesn't quite agree, and this is really all we have to base our estimates on, which isn't much; they could be just trash-talking each other.
Considering Vados actually trained Whis, I think it's heavily implied she's stronger.
Hmm, there's obviously no doubt that at one point she was stronger than Whis, but just because she trained him doesn't mean he hasn't gotten stronger than her. In fact, he even says she hasn't trained for quite a long while. Similarly, to much, much lower proportions, Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami, Kaiou-sama all train Goku and are stronger than him at one point and he surpasses all of them easily and quickly, to insane degrees, in fact. I know the example is far from being perfect and the same dynamics don't quite apply, but it's just to illustrate that just because you once trained a warrior it doesn't you're automatically forever stronger than them. We'll either have to wait for actual fights or official info, or we'll actually never know for sure just who is stronger.
I personally wouldn't mind too much if she was stronger than Whis, although I've grown fond of even the latter, as he's Beerus' faithful attendant. What I do mind is that not only Whis himself, but also Vados, are both stronger than Hakaishin Birusu. Now THAT pisses me off. The cat SHOULD be above anything and anyone, the strongest and most powerful entity there is and ever was, period. But that's just me.
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Bullza wrote:
On a side note it also doesn't surprise me that Vados is stronger than Whis. Her being weaker than Whis just because she's female seemed too predictable.
Well, we could also argue by logic (which, in this case, like in many others, may not apply at all) that if Beerus, Whis' trainee, is stronger than Champa, Vados' trainee, then Whis should, or could be stronger than Vados.
Not saying it's one way or the other, I made my point on that regard in my previous post. She could be slightly stronger than Whis, slightly weaker than him, or absolutely on par with him. What seems to be definitely factual is that both of them are above Beerus.
On a side note, it never even crossed my mind that she MUST be weaker than Whis just because she's female. Honestly. That was never a factor in the equation.
Bullza wrote:
If Vados is stronger than Whis I think shed be a good contender for the real main villain in the Universe 6 arc. I think I said this somewhere before but perhaps they could build up Champa as being the villain only for there to be a betrayal by Vados who turns out to be using him the whole time and the puppeteer behind the whole thing.
It'd also just be different to have a female villain for a change too. The last female character who was worth anything power wise was #18.
I think we shouldn't call them villains, at least not full-fledged villains. A villain is someone like the ones we had throughout the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, #17, #18, Cell, Kid Buu, insane genocidal psychopathic megalomaniac sadist maniacs. I always defended the view that even someone like Beerus, who's a Hakaishin and destroys more planets than he's supposed to at his whims, most likely doesn't share the same concept of good and evil as all others do, and the same applies to Champa, Whis and Vados. They're certainly not going to go around killing off entire races to get immortality (Vegeta, Freeza), conquering and enslaving an entire planet (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), annihilating and absorbing in a horrific way millions of human beings to attain the ultimate power (Cell) or rampaging through the entire Universe destroying everything and everyone in sight, in an out-of-control manner.
That's exactly why the concept of Beerus' personality, along with that of Whis, and most likely, to a somewhat lesser degree, Champa and Vados, was a fantastic addition to the franchise, we'd never really seen anything like that before. Not a villain, at most an antagonist. The term "villain" carries with it quite a lot of evil intentions and wrongdoing, genocides, mania, psychopathy, megalomania, slaughter, assassination, etc.
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The average Freeza soldier is probably within the power level Muten Roshi can handle, if they don't gang up on him at the same time. They did laugh in the Freeza saga on Namek when they measured the suppressed-Ki Namek-sei-jins at 1.000 each, but that might have been just because there were lots of them around, whereas there were only 3 Namek-sei-jins, making up a total of 3.000. I highly doubt the average Freeza soldier, whether on Namek or during his invasion of Earth in Fukkatsu no F, has a power of 1.000 or even close to that. They have proper defending and fighting armor and they're all apparently well-trained and able to fly, etc., but I'd say that one on one none of them would have a chance against Muten Roshi, regardless of whether he trained and got any stronger when compared to what he always was throughout the series.
Muten Roshi worked a lot for centuries to reach the level of power he has by the time we get introduced to him as Earth's strongest in DB, it would incredibly hard to believe, especially taking into account he's a mere human, that he underwent a major power-up after any supposed potential training. Besides, he's a martial arts expert, though not so much an expert in Ki manipulation, etc. The good old Muten Roshi we've always known throughout DB and DBZ would definitely be able to take on a bunch of Freeza soldiers easily, but if they ganged up on him he'd have trouble, as seen in Fukkatsu no F.
On another note, but still discussing Muten Roshi, I welcomed his comeback to the fighting front in the movie - and hopefully in the Freeza saga within DBSuper -, along with Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Krillin (all of them with huge differences in power scales, though) instead of the old routine of making him a comic character trying to do sexually abusive and pervert stuff, which isn't getting old now, it's gotten old even in the Majin Buu arc or even before that, just like Chi Chi's constant nagging did. Matching him to the average Freeza soldiers is the perfect opportunity for even Muten Roshi have a successful fight. His power has become obsolete as soon as the first half of DB was reached, and Tenshinhan's, Krillin's and Yamcha's also did by the Freeza saga, and even #18's and Piccolo's extreme level of power has been crushed by the top warriors by the Majin Buu arc, and now even Ultimate Gohan and Majin Buu, or even Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta or Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku or Gotenks are useless against the newest antagonists, stages and levels of power, but that shouldn't mean they shouldn't get their fighting time, display their techniques and have some proper screen time. The difference between them, and the one between so many warriors, whether good or evil, is insane, but it's not just about strength and power, it's about keeping them "alive" by giving them, including even Muten Roshi, some proper fighting time. None of the fundamental characters from DB and DBZ should be forgotten, and from time to time, regardless of their power when compared to the actual top warriors in the Universe at this point, they should get, and did get/are getting their moments to shine. I hope they don't screw that up in the Freeza arc in DBSuper when compared to the Fukkatsu no F. I'm quite hyped to see just how they'll approach the enormity of stuff that needs to be rethought in the form of a retelling of the movie's events, both what we saw on-screen and what happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
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The average Freeza soldier is probably within the power level Muten Roshi can handle, if they don't gang up on him at the same time. They did laugh in the Freeza saga on Namek when they measured the suppressed-Ki Namek-sei-jins at 1.000 each, but that might have been just because there were lots of them around, whereas there were only 3 Namek-sei-jins, making up a total of 3.000. I highly doubt the average Freeza soldier, whether on Namek or during his invasion of Earth in Fukkatsu no F, has a power of 1.000 or even close to that. They have proper defending and fighting armor and they're all apparently well-trained and able to fly, etc., but I'd say that one on one none of them would have a chance against Muten Roshi, regardless of whether he trained and got any stronger when compared to what he always was throughout the series.
Muten Roshi worked a lot for centuries to reach the level of power he has by the time we get introduced to him as Earth's strongest in DB, it would incredibly hard to believe, especially taking into account he's a mere human, that he underwent a major power-up after any supposed potential training. Besides, he's a martial arts expert, though not so much an expert in Ki manipulation, etc. The good old Muten Roshi we've always known throughout DB and DBZ would definitely be able to take on a bunch of Freeza soldiers easily, but if they ganged up on him he'd have trouble, as seen in Fukkatsu no F.
On another note, but still discussing Muten Roshi, I welcomed his comeback to the fighting front in the movie - and hopefully in the Freeza saga within DBSuper -, along with Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Krillin (all of them with huge differences in power scales, though) instead of the old routine of making him a comic character trying to do sexually abusive and pervert stuff, which isn't getting old now, it's gotten old even in the Majin Buu arc or even before that, just like Chi Chi's constant nagging did. Matching him to the average Freeza soldiers is the perfect opportunity for even Muten Roshi have a successful fight. His power has become obsolete as soon as the first half of DB was reached, and Tenshinhan's, Krillin's and Yamcha's also did by the Freeza saga, and even #18's and Piccolo's extreme level of power has been crushed by the top warriors by the Majin Buu arc, and now even Ultimate Gohan and Majin Buu, or even Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta or Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku or Gotenks are useless against the newest antagonists, stages and levels of power, but that shouldn't mean they shouldn't get their fighting time, display their techniques and have some proper screen time. The difference between them, and the one between so many warriors, whether good or evil, is insane, but it's not just about strength and power, it's about keeping them "alive" by giving them, including even Muten Roshi, some proper fighting time. None of the fundamental characters from DB and DBZ should be forgotten, and from time to time, regardless of their power when compared to the actual top warriors in the Universe at this point, they should get, and did get/are getting their moments to shine. I hope they don't screw that up in the Freeza arc in DBSuper when compared to the Fukkatsu no F. I'm quite hyped to see just how they'll approach the enormity of stuff that needs to be rethought in the form of a retelling of the movie's events, both what we saw on-screen and what happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
Noah wrote:
I have the feeling that they will let Vegeta defeat Freeza in the anime RoF Arc
Highly, highly doubt that. Not that I personally wouldn't want it to happen, as a hardcore Vegeta fan. Watching him beat the s*** out of Freeza after the humiliation he was subjected to was good enough, he basically won the fight and was about to finish Freeza off with his own hands in Fukkatsu no F, but taking into account the fact that Goku just has to be either the main hero or the guy who delivers the final blow regardless of anything else, just like what happened in the movie, I'd go for Goku being the one to finish Freeza just like in Fukkatsu no F. Don't get me wrong, that's not what I'd like, I'd like Vegeta to be the one to save the day without Goku's help whatsoever and become, at least temporarily, the main hero to get rid of the menace by killing them, but don't get your hopes too high on that. What they shouldn't screw up, though, was another one of the good things about the movie, which was Vegeta's flawless beating of Freeza, which has quite a lot of significance for a hardcore Vegeta fan, by getting rid of that; they did change a few things here and there in the Beerus arc when compared to BoG, but I hope that whatever changes or adaptations they make to the Freeza arc when compared to Fukkatsu no F isn't the fact that Vegeta doesn't get to beat the s*** out of Freeza. That just has to be there, just the way it happened in the movie (not saying it didn't have its flaws, though, many more than BoG, in fact).
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An entire episode dedicated to Mr. Satan's mischief and, again, as always, taking public recognition and credit for beating a guy he can't even remember the name of, after Cell and Majin Buu. I wouldn't call this a filler episode, but yeah, not much worth watching here. I wasn't expecting them to make fun of Piccolo once again, not only is it getting old, it's actually making me pretty pissed off. Piccolo is a stoic, incredibly powerful warrior and previous evil maniacal villain, enough of making fun of him by putting him in awkward positions.
And apparently we'll get Vegeta involved in cooking again in next episode.
Loved the scene where Vegeta is on the mountains, the detail of the sand and dust piling up in his boots meaning he's been there motionless for perhaps days is a perfect Vegeta-alone moment. And again, he said "omae" when referring to Kakarotto, not "kisama", which just reflects and illustrates yet another stage he reached in terms of his respect towards him in terms of interactions with Goku and feelings towards him.
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An entire episode dedicated to Mr. Satan's mischief and, again, as always, taking public recognition and credit for beating a guy he can't even remember the name of, after Cell and Majin Buu. I wouldn't call this a filler episode, but yeah, not much worth watching here. I wasn't expecting them to make fun of Piccolo once again, not only is it getting old, it's actually making me pretty pissed off. Piccolo is a stoic, incredibly powerful warrior and previous evil maniacal villain, enough of making fun of him by putting him in awkward positions.
And apparently we'll get Vegeta involved in cooking again in next episode.
Loved the scene where Vegeta is on the mountains, the detail of the sand and dust piling up in his boots meaning he's been there motionless for perhaps days is a perfect Vegeta-alone moment. And again, he said "omae" when referring to Kakarotto, not "kisama", which just reflects and illustrates yet another stage he reached in terms of his respect towards him in terms of interactions with Goku and feelings towards him.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
Really fun episode that's not a boring lame rehash of past material.
It's not a rehash of past material, sure, but for an entire Dragonball episode, you've got to admit there wasn't much to it. We all knew this would happen, it's basically the same as with the first two or three episodes of DBSuper minus Beerus' appearances back then. Not really filler, but no serious stuff going on either. It was fun and had that perfect Vegeta moment, reminded me a lot of the two times during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs he stands on top of a mountain, one of them with Mirai no Trunks, for days on end reflecting on his way to achieve further levels of power after getting beaten by #18 and surpassed by a number of different warriors.
And again, the "omae" instead of "kisama" thing has quite a lot of significance when it comes to just how Vegeta now looks at Goku in terms of his respect towards him, which has reached its climax at this point after so much gradual development throughout the arcs in DBZ.
And again, it appears we'll get Vegeta involved in cooking. At least no octopuses are involved, we only saw an egg.
I honestly was thinking throughout the episode, especially by the first half of the episode, Mr. Satan was being partially actually delirious with all the insane powers and fights he's been witnessing throughout the years. However, how hard is it to pronounce "Beerus"? Oh yeah, he was pretty much knocked out by Majin Buu and Beerus the whole time the latter was being talked about and introduced. He reverted to his Cell Games-era stomach aches, won again without having the power to do so, kept his image, and yet everyone was starting to question whether it was really him who defeated this "Hakaishin" soon, and I mean seconds, after they were all chanting his name, just because he failed to fight effectively against that alien.
Nice thing to have his two students from the Cell Games appear again. Goes to show they're doing their best and putting actual effort into not forgetting anyone from the past, no matter how distant it is.
Found it funny that he called Gohan first, then Vegeta, then he was thinking of Goku, but then even Trunks or Goten would be enough, just to save his ass. Isn't he tired of being put in those positions and circumstances?
Sometimes it's hard to understand or grasp if we're supposed to look at DBSuper's smoother in-between major sagas episodes seriously or not; you'll find ridiculous moments most of the time, but then you get the serious Vegeta moments, for example, put in there in the middle of the ridiculousness. I know the same happened in DB and DBZ, but, again, I've had this feeling for a long time, ever since the TV series pretty much began airing, there's something wrong with its pacing.
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All in all, two pages of discussion are pretty much enough to sum this particular episode up. Not really filler, but a smooth episode stuck in the series so that we get a break from a five-episode super fight between Hakaishin Birusu and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. And you can't move on to the next serious arc right away, you've got to have two or three episodes like this.
It's definitely enjoyable, lots of details to catch here and there, some stuff is rehashed or a repetition, but it's basically just fun.
We all could definitely use an episode like this after five ones of insane fighting, so yeah, it also served that purpose.
And again, I honestly think Mr. Satan was, despite his usual carefully planned tactics and sheer luck, being close to delusional. He didn't actually SHOW his self-proclaimed Kami/Super Saiya-jin transformation to anyone, he just envisioned it in his head. A few years around guys who can actually go Super Saiya-jin, fight like that and are capable of destroying the Universe will do that to you.
Can't get enough of the Vegeta-alone moment, but would and could do without one more instance of ridiculing Piccolo. The degree of seriousness they approach Piccolo should be just about the same they use for Vegeta (and even so, Vegeta has had his own fair share of ridiculousness in episode 6 too, so yeah).
One last thing, which I've mentioned before at some point: no complaints about the music, but the original background stuff from Shunsuke Kikuchi was one of the many elements that made DB and DBZ so utterly fantastic, and we don't get them here. That and the pacing, or rhythm, or whatever you want to call it; there's just something wrong with it in DBSuper. Not too wrong, just weird.
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Beerus-sama wrote:
- sounds like a few years atleast have passed as Chichi doesn't have any money left from what Goku gave her in the first episode...
- I also was hoping it was a movie the SSJ Satan thing :( but that explains the great effects the scenes had with SSJ Satan :lol:
As far as I could understand it, and that's the reason why Goku reacts the way he did, Chi Chi said she already spent all the money Goku reminded her he brought home, which is why the interior of the house seems to have improved quite a lot.
Yeah, it reminded us automatically of the stupid movie they made at the Tenkaichi Budokai preceding the Majin Buu arc, but no, actually it was just Mr. Satan hallucinating.
Beerus-sama wrote:
Next episode looks like a Whis and Vegeta episode.... I wonder how will that be :think:
Exactly, in these smoother episodes they seem to pick on a particular character or a particular family and stick with them for the episode's duration, dedicating it basically entirely to them, as in, ok, this one's for Vegeta, next one's for Krillin, next one's for Mr. Satan, and so on. Since there were only two or three in the beginning of the series and two or three more now, they need to split time and introduce interesting and even somewhat serious scenes here and there, but the end result is always something that makes me think they hastily made up and finally said "ok, that makes one episode, we made the 20 minutes somehow with this and that material".
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Zombie wrote:
My god the dance killed me.
I'm not happy about Piccolo's role in this episode. At all.
My sentiments exactly. As a hardcore Piccolo fan, I'm beginning to get a little bit tired of having them put him in ridiculous or laughable positions and circumstances. It began back in the Majin Buu arc and the trend seems to continue, and they seem to forget that Piccolo used to be basically Vegeta in his early days before he appeared, Goku's arch-rival, a maniacal demon, an incredibly powerful warrior with a serious and stoic personality. Enough of making fun of him. And if they threw REAL action time for him in the Freeza arc within DBSuper and even after that it would be cool, what we saw from him in Fukkatsu no F was decent but I want more from Piccolo.
Chuquita wrote:
Just noticed Vegeta doesn't wear his gloves while cooking. :shock:
How rare to see his hands!
I used to think once that we rarely see his hands, because whatever outfit he uses throughout the arcs in DBZ, even loosing most of the gear gradually, he never gets rid of the gloves, but in actual fact there's quite a few instances where we get to see his hands, like when he's naked right after returning to Earth, when he's wearing the "badman" shirt, when he's changing armor in Freeza's ship while waiting for Krillin and Gohan, etc. It's rare, but it's not THAT rare, it's not like we've never seen his hands before.
Doctor. wrote:
What's wrong with Super's obsession over food?
Indeed. Beerus and Whis are almost as obsessed with food as the Saiya-jin, with the difference being that the Saiya-jin eat because they're just naturally hungry, while Beerus and Whis like to appreciate the flavor of what they eat. It's been a recurrent theme in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, to the point of being one of the focal and fundamental points of particular episodes and to the point of making Vegeta temporarily a chef.
Dragonball always had a thing with food, and I don't mind that at all, on the contrary, but they seem to be overdoing it just a little bit in DBSuper. Besides, whenever I watch that stuff, just like whenever I watched Goku's numerous instances of eating like an animal throughout DBZ, it makes me hungry myself unless I just finished eating.
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soulnova wrote:
Can you remind me, please, what omae means in this context?
It's basically an informal way of referring to someone else, unlike "kisama", which is extremely rude and displays hostility, or "anata" or "kimi", which are much more formal and happen in a context of well-mannered speaking and respect. It's basically the "you" version of "ore" (I). Vegeta does refer to himself as "ore" throughout the entirety of DBZ, but refers to most others as "kisama". One would expect such a self-proud warrior to use something like "watashi" or "boku" to refer to himself, like Piccolo Daimao, Cell, Freeza or Beerus, but it also has to do with how well-mannered you are when you speak, whether it's genuine or not (in Freeza's case, his well-mannered way of speaking isn't genuine, when he shows his true colors by the end of his fight with Goku on Namek he uses "kisama" instead of "kimi" and "ore" instead of his typical "boku".
Chuquita wrote:
I got curious too, so I googled. I do want to wait for a more knowledgeable speaker's reply, but for what it's worth Wikipedia says:
Not intending to be rude with you or anything, but I'm quite knowledgeable when it comes to Japanese. Watching every single episode of DBZ, all day, every day, for decades, hundreds of times will do that you. I possess quite a large amount of vocabulary and even a significant knowledge of grammar, and I gained all that from DBZ. :P
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Bullza wrote:
Well it's way too early to say on Champa and Vodas as they were only just introduced. Beerus isn't a villain no, he's not really even that evil, he's just an antagonist. Champa doesn't seem so evil going by that chapter and neither does Vodas but if it was all some sinister plan then Vodas could be made to be as evil as Freeza or Cell if that was the intent.
If that's the intent it will fail miserably. Freeza is arguably the most charismatic of all DBZ villains (sadistic, no respect for any life form except his own, arrogant, racist, genocidal, maniacal, enslaver, absolutely evil), and Cell stops at nothing to achieve his selfish goal, even if it means displaying absolutely no respect for any form of life either (he absorbed millions of humans in a horrific way and killed thousands just to try to flush out #18).
Regarding Champa, his schemes and the fact he wants to remain unnoticed suggest to me that he's more of a schemer - and thus perhaps more of a coward - than Beerus is. Beerus is proud of himself, among many other character traits, you wouldn't conceive him scheming to get something he wants, he just goes there and does whatever it takes (for example, looking for the Super Saiya-jin God individual).
None of them, neither Beerus, Champa, Whis or Vados can be deemed villains, though. At most, they're antagonists. Given the proper circumstances, I think at least Beerus and Whis would act to save and help the good cause (as seen in Fukkatsu no F). Just because Beerus fights Goku and threatens numerous times to destroy the Earth, with Whis' apparent approval, doesn't mean he's evil. There's just no way we can compare him, and most likely Champa, to a lesser degree, to the likes of Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta in his early days, Freeza, Future #17, Future #18, Cell or Kid Buu, and I'm not even counting the Movies.
All of these guys have their own particular agendas, but whatever their final goal is, the way to achieve involves, or may involve, killing off entire races of people, destroying planets, slaughtering races, assassination, torture, etc. Beerus does display some of those traits here and there before he lost his shit and before the fight with Super Saiya-jin God Goku, but, because you watched BoG, you know that deep down he really can't be called a full-fledged villain (and not a full-fledged good guy, either, it's an entirely different concept in terms of character introduction, and probably the aspect that makes him such a wonderful addition to the franchise).
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Dogasu wrote:
I don't remember Chi-Chi's kitchen being that huge before.
It wasn't. As far as I could understand it, she already used the money Goku got from Mr. Satan to improve the interior of the house, although I doubt she'd spend all that insane amount of money just to buy a new TV, expand the room a little bit and buy some new furniture, but whatever.
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Cetra wrote:
...
Wow, no money again. Chichi must have some heavy gambling problems. Top notch writing. Maybe watching the episode will at least make the rest funny enough for me.
I'm not entirely sure she said she already spent the entirety of the huge amount of money Goku got, I just deduced it based on Goku's reaction plus the fact that the house has been obviously and visibly improved. But spending that amount of money to the last cent should mean she bought themselves a f****** palace, so I'm really not sure.
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Araki wrote:
soulnova wrote:
Can we have some extra insight on Gohan telling Goku about Videl being pregnant? Is it a japanese tradition? It felt wierdly out of place at that point.
Despite being a formality, i think that was because Goku and Gohan didn't interact at all when they found out about the pregnancy. So maybe Gohan wanted to hear his father's thoughts and approval.
Taking into account all the formalities regarding personal relationships and interactions and the whole culture of Japan (along with many other Asian countries and cultures), I'd say he was basically formally announcing to his father that he was going to be a father himself, as in, the family is just about to grow and there'll soon be a new bloodline member to the Son family. Pure Saiya-jins don't seem to care about family and blood issues as humans do (Brolly kills his father, Goku helps Piccolo kills his brother, Raditz intends to kill his brother, Raditz intends to kill his nephew, Vegeta doesn't care about the genocide of his race, Vegeta at least tries to not care about his newly-found family - Trunks and Bulma -, etc.), so Goku isn't really that hyped, surprised or particularly happy to know about the fact he's going to be a grandfather and that his son is going to have a daughter of his own. Goku's concern, other than ultimately protecting Earth, life in general and every living thing against serious menaces is to get stronger and always reach new stages, just like Vegeta, who's obviously, by now, the one and only one who can keep up with him at this point among the good guys' team, and Goku goes as far as recurrently neglecting his family and all types of obligations and responsibilities to once again train more and more.
He's obviously happy to know about that, but that's not going to rock his world. It obviously has a much larger impact on Chi Chi and Gyumao, besides Gohan and Videl themselves.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Zombie wrote:
I'm not happy about Piccolo's role in this episode. At all.
I'm not happy with the reasoning behind his role is the episode, but I absolutely love that he's now integrated enough into Gohan's family that he's forced to do mundane shit like this (and babysit Pan in "F"). It's like the driving episode all over again. Of course, it was never going to be that good, because Mr. Satan was the intended focus.
I don't like the fact he's integrated enough into Gohan's family, as you put it, at all. He was a protector, teacher and a father figure to Gohan as early as DBZ began, in the Saiya-jin saga, and his relationship with him was one of the catalysts for his relatively quick process of transition from full-fledged villain to a powerful warrior fighting for good. I certainly don't like to see him "forced" (as if Chi Chi or Videl could force someone like Piccolo to do anything, by the way).
I believe that whoever appreciates the numerous instances of "humiliation" and ridiculousness he's been subjected to beginning in and since the Majin Buu arc fails to recognize what makes hardcore Piccolo fans admire him so much. It's basically the same process with Vegeta, with some twists and adaptations here and there. Piccolo is a stoic, extremely powerful Namek-sei-jin, he used to be a maniacal demon, the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, he belongs to a particularly special race of aliens and he's one of the most gifted among them, for that matter. He's proud, stern, tough, disciplined, rigid, powerful, stoic and serious, traits shared by Vegeta (and Tenshinhan, to some degree).
Turning him into a ridiculous character and constantly putting him in settings and circumstances which are obviously awkward for him isn't quite pleasant, just like it wouldn't be pleasant if they applied it to Vegeta to the same degree (they do, but not to the same degree).
The driving episode in DBZ was a filler one and it was funny back then and still is, but after that he went on throughout the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs to become the most powerful warrior among the good guys, got himself nearly killed, achieved a huge power up and displayed his trademark seriousness and stoic personality, coupled with extreme power. In DBSuper his personality and all of the character traits I've been mentioning are constantly being basically "raped". That does affect and piss of a hardcore Piccolo fan.
Piccolo watched over Gohan near his house while he was a teenager and was studying, etc., and always showed up to protect him NUMEROUS occasions, but that doesn't mean he all of a sudden has to become part of the family and have dinner with them and buy the f****** groceries, right? That's going a bit too far. Let's not make Piccolo a comedian. Here and there, sure, that's funny, but this is just overdoing it. I'm just glad he got his proper fighting time in Fukkatsu no F, I hope that's one of the things they don't change in the retelling of Movie in the Freeza saga within DBSuper; quite in fact, I hope they expand on it and give him an ever more prominent role, but somehow I doubt that. If, despite his massive power, he ceased being a useful fighter when it comes to the likes of Beerus, Majin Buu, Goku and Vegeta, and he just ceased to be able to keep up with the most powerful warriors ever since the Majin Buu saga doesn't mean he lost his fantastic power and, much less, his particular character and personality traits. He's a stern, stoic, proud and extremely powerful warrior, not a comedian. Not going to expand on this, I'd just be repeating myself over and over.
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Avery wrote:
It's a bit late to say this but... welcome back, MaGyunia! This section in particular has been in a desperate need of your essays. I'm glad I can read your thoughts again :)
It's not late at all, it happened yesterday. :) Thank you for your recognition and for your welcoming back, and for the value you put into my typical huge walls of text full of thoughts and concepts. I'm glad to see many more users than I initially thought appreciate the way I write on all aspects.
Avery wrote:
Regarding Piccolo, it's just that serious characters in humorous/awkward situations can be even funnier than genuine comic relief characters. Toei seems to have just realized that Vegeta had too much potential, and now they are going all-out with the ridiculousness. I mean, he's treated waaaaay "worse" than Piccolo, who at least has been shown in dumb situations before. Vegeta's funny moments in Z were so few, short and quickly forgotten in a matter of seconds. Piccolo is my favourite character, and I admit, he can be an awesome straightman. I don't think Toei has jumped the shark with him. He had way more serious moments in Super so far.
I know taking and picking particularly stern and serious characters and putting them in awkward circumstances has quite the potential to make for a funny scene, I recognize that and I value that, but my point is that it's just been too much with Piccolo, for the reasons I stated before in more than one post.
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LightBing wrote:
Those saying Piccolo shouldn't be helping out or that is weird he occasionally joins the Son family forget he isn't Piccolo anymore, at least the Piccolo of old. He lived three years with Goku during the 3 year training for the Androids. He joined Kami which provided the most significant softening to his personality.
Sure, but even after he completed his process of transition from full-fledged villain to a protector of Earth, Gohan, Goku and all life and an invaluable and extremely powerful member of the team of good guys, and after he spent those 3 years training for the incoming Jinzouningen, and even after he fused with Kami and further softened his personality, he (said by himself) retained the majority of what made up his character, and went on, during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, to act with the same degree of seriousness when fighting, coming up with strategies, etc., always with the same serious, stoic, anti-social traits.
Regarding Piccolo and the comparison of his depictions between what you call the "Piccolo of old" and the more recent events, it all basically comes down to the fact that whenever Piccolo isn't assessing an antagonist's degree of menace, coming up with intelligent strategies to help out or fighting, his ridigity has apparently lost, in the eyes of the creators and most fans, its ability to be taken seriously, and whatever appearances he makes in non-fighting, non-serious circumstances are nothing but constant instances of picking and putting him in awkward positions. At least they show the proper respect for his fantastic past and character and let him have his proper screen time (nowhere near as much as it should be, in my particular personal view, but that's just me), and even fighting time, at least in Fukkatsu no F, although he didn't have his go at Freeza himself. Again, I hope they don't change the fact that he appears just as much (in fact, I hope he appears even more) in the Freeza arc within DBSuper when compared to Fukkatsu no F, and I seriously hope he has a fighting go not only at those useless regular Freeza soldiers, but at Freeza himself. In fact, one of the several serious issues with the hastily-made and released GT which caused it to become an utter failure from any angles and perspectives and points of view was the fact that they got almost totally rid of Piccolo. Perhaps not the major flaw in GT, and I'm not going to start a discussion about it again, nor is it my intention to do so or to generate one, but it's just one more of its structural, basic flaws.
Piccolo will always be Piccolo, stoic, serious, rigid, stern, proud, and no matter how many years he spends around Gohan, Goku or even Chi Chi, and no matter how much even his level of fantastic extreme power becomes obsolete when it comes to the likes of Majin Buu, Beerus, Whis, Goku, Freeza, Vegeta, etc., he retains most, if not all, of his personality characteristics expect the ones he lost when he ceased becoming the main menace and villain in DB and the very early episodes of DBZ.
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VegettoEX wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Not intending to be rude with you or anything, but I'm quite knowledgeable when it comes to Japanese. Watching every single episode of DBZ, all day, every day, for decades, hundreds of times will do that you. I possess quite a large amount of vocabulary and even a significant knowledge of grammar, and I gained all that from DBZ. :P
Very little of what you'll learn by watching DBZ is actually important/relevant/decent with regard to Japanese grammar. It's exaggerated dialog aimed at children. For example, you didn't mention above how "boku" is generally something used by children; it's certainly not something a "proud warrior" would use. Freeza would use it (does he actually? blanking here) because he's a spoiled brat, not because he's being polite. An actual proud warrior using "boku" would probably be laughed out of his clan.
Folks here have come to expect translations and analysis from peers that have formally studied the language, live(d) in the country, etc. well beyond just their interest in DBZ.
(I say the above explanation also as someone with no extended formal study of the language, so take it as you will.)
Hmm, perhaps I should have pointed out that whatever knowledge I gained from watching DBZ on a constant basis for over a decade, coupled with a natural propensity to languages, enables me to clear some doubts some other users might have, which was just the case. She didn't know the difference between "omae" and "kisama", and I was explaining it to her, as for me it's such a basic concept. Not criticizing her, obviously, nobody has the obligation to know a word of Japanese even if they're into anime or DBZ. I was actually trying to be helpful.
Yes, "boku" is especially used by children (most notably Gohan), but both Freeza and Beerus use it, as you said correctly, because they're spoiled brats, but isn't Vegeta himself not a spoiled brat to some degree?
In any circumstances, "watashi" would be the ideal term to refer to oneself in either a formal context or when you're a well-spoken individual with respect towards yourself, and Piccolo Daimao and Cell, just to name a few of the most prominent ones, use it. I forgot to mention that, surprisingly, Piccolo himself doesn't use "watashi", but "ore", or, in some cases, "ore-sama", despite being a well-spoken, intelligent, rigid, proud and formal individual to interact with. He uses "kisama" to refer even to some individuals he respects, like Vegeta (in this case, he doesn't actually respect pretty much anybody), never "omae" or "anata".
But thanks for clearing that up, VegettoEX, but the fact that you pointed out that I could have severe flaws in terms of knowledge of Japanese doesn't really apply here, as I was just trying to help someone who, presumably, knows less than I do. Perhaps I should have been more thorough and detailed in the post you referred to.
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I'm almost as hyped to see just why they decide to develop that stage, and the very first time they achieve it, as I am to see who gets it first, but following one of Dragonball's most notable trademarks - Goku always behind one step ahead of Vegeta - will probably be at play here as well; either that, or they get it at the same exact time. Vegeta has/will have indeed skipped Super Saiya-jin 3 and FINALLY caught up with Goku by Fukkatsu no F (and thus, in Freeza's arc within DBSuper) without being left behind once again, and by going from his previous best - Super Saiya-jin 2 - to something close to Beerus, Whis, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, he automatically surpasses all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, Vegitto and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
We might see a small change in the typical tendency and witness Vegeta finally being able to not only surpass his previous limits, and those of others, which was a regular theme throughout all the arcs in DBZ, this time it appears he won't be overcome by Kakarotto just when he THOUGHT he had reached or surpassed him and, yet again, proclaimed himself to be the strongest warrior in the Universe. This time they're really on par with each other, which is a relief for any hardcore Vegeta fan.
The one thing they absolutely cannot change about the retelling of Fukkatsu no F in the TV series' episodes is the fact that Vegeta gets his fighting time against Freeza and beats the s*** out of him just like in the movie, or perhaps even longer. That was enough to finally, after decades, take revenge for the humiliation he was subjected to, but now that I think of it, it's barely one minute.
I'm sure they won't change that, but for some reason I'm afraid they could change the fact Vegeta is not only capable of killing Freeza but actually charges a blast to finish him off. I'm not even asking for Vegeta to, at least once, be the actual hero to get rid of the menace, I'm just asking that they at least keep it as it is in the Movie and add a few new things and adaptations to it just like they did with the retelling of BoG in the form of the Beerus arc.
I was relieved when the names of the following episodes first came out, as they all suggest that most events that happened off-screen at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F are going, as most of us called for and wished, be given screen time in the series' episodes. That makes sense, they're the perfect opportunity to take their time and, instead of filling it with hastily-conceived material with no substance, please the fans who want to see just how, when and why Goku and Vegeta decide to go off to train with Whis, how and when Vegeta reaches Super Saiya-jin God and how, when and why both of them develop an even further stage. All of this needs to be seen, and it apparently will.
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Sandubadear wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
In any circumstances, "watashi" would be the ideal term to refer to oneself in either a formal context or when you're a well-spoken individual with respect towards yourself, and Piccolo Daimao and Cell, just to name a few of the most prominent ones, use it.
Don't forget Goku's first encounter with Beerus, where he has to be all polite and uses that word :P
Goku uses 'watakushi' IIRC, which is even more formal.
Exactly. Since he has virtually no idea how to properly address people depending on the formality of a conversation, he either doesn't use "desu" when he's supposed or overuses it, and the same goes for his usage of "watakushi" instead of just plain "watashi". It's interesting, though, that the only ones Goku adds the suffix "-sama" to are Kaiou-sama and Beerus (Birusu-sama), but knowing Goku's character, I'd say that's just because he for some reason conditioned himself to say the names that way, not because he's constantly considerate and respectful towards both of them (certainly not towards Kaiou-sama, whose house he continuously destroys, whose planet he uses as his training grounds and who he actually had indirectly killed).
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Bullza wrote:
I'm saying Vados could be turned into a main villain. She could have a Aizen thing going on where for now she seems ok but then eventually it turns out she's actually behind some sinister plan and a really evil and powerful being.
Tobi was originally a joke villain before he became a proper main villain. Something like that could be done with Super. It's an idea that hasn't been done before in Dragon Ball.
I wouldn't mind having a full-fledged villain in DBSuper, and quite in fact I was hoping for it when we were discussing the really new stuff and characters we'd be introduced after the retellings of BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but by full-fledged villain I was thinking of something along the lines of the typical maniacal, genocidal, sadistic yet extremely powerful guy we saw in all the arcs between the last stage of DB and all throughout the entirety of DBZ (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, #17, #18, Cell, Kid Buu). We're not going to get that. Besides, these guys aren't schemers or plotters, they're proud, arrogant and either bent on conquest and world domination (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), achieving immortality and becoming the strongest entity in the Universe (Vegeta, Freeza), killing Goku (Future #17, Future #18), achieving an unprecedented level of power and perfection by absorbing millions of humans in a horrific way (Cell) or just destroying everything and everyone in sight because that's what they do (Kid Buu).
I just can't see Vados, or Champa, or both of them acting together, coming even close to something like this. The introduction of Beerus and his particular personality traits was already enough to let us know that the degree of seriousness and the menace a potential new antagonist represents won't have the same degree or level of drama and desperation as the later stages of DB and the whole of DBZ did. The only way they can possibly, perhaps get that back is precisely by using previous villains, as was/will be the case of Freeza.
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Draconic wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
They both have it so to show who gets it first is pretty moot. Especially since Goku gets to show it off against Freeza first. It isn't really compensating for it at all.
It develops his character and changes the dynamic with Goku if he does get it first. He was always behind, but now finally does what he always wanted.
Not to mention that the only one surprised by Vegeta having the form in FnF was Freeza himself. That will still be there and, with Super's tendency to prolong stuff, will give the Prince his due in battle for at least one episode.
Well, Freeza's time, despite his numerous cameos in the later arcs, was so far away removed that back when he was alive, either on Namek or during his invasion of Earth with his father, Vegeta wasn't even a regular Super Saiya-jin yet, let alone a Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai or Super Saiya-jin 2. This is just one more angle to show just how much of a gap Freeza skipped in terms of power from when he was the real threat and menace and the post-Majin Buu arc era he, along with Beerus and the others, show up in the recent Movies and DBSuper.
I guess that if we base ourselves on the fact that the battle between Beerus and Super Saiya-jin God Goku stretched for up to five episodes, and this is a TV series we're talking about, with all the necessary (or unnecessary) filler material they'll throw in, I would expect Vegeta's particular go at Freeza after the latter's fight with Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku will stretch for at least one episode, yeah, that's about the right timing. That is, assuming they'll keep the fundamental sequence of events in the Freeza arc the same as it was in Fukkatsu no F, as in: Freeza shows up on Earth in his first stage, everyone fights his army, Goku and Vegeta show up, Freeza transforms into his fourth form, battles Saiya-jin beyond God Goku in that stage, then Golden Freeza battles Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Goku gets a hole in his chest by the laser, gets saved and Vegeta finally steps in.
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Herms wrote:
I took it the opposite, since Beerus is so scrawny. Based just on physique, shouldn't a bulky guy have the upper hand in a fight against a wire-thin guy?
We've known since pretty much the beginning of DB that physical appearance has virtually nothing to do with actual power as it is measured and used in the Dragonball Universe. The manipulation of one's Ki is what matters, regardless of the size and/or appearance.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
If he were stronger, then running into Beerus wouldn't be that big of a setback.
Exactly. Beerus seems to be much more straight-forward, proud and self-confident than Champa, who plots and schemes. Plotting and scheming instead of jumping to a fight is a potential sign of weakness, or lack of self-assuredness. It's just one more reason to be almost sure, by now, that regardless of how Vados and Whis stack up against each other, Beerus is indeed above Champa (thankfully).
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dae428 wrote:
I will say that I would like to see Mr. Satan eventually get some action in the future though. I feel as though his cowardice and incompetence was just a bit exaggerated in this episode. I mean not Muten Roshi or Chi Chi levels, but still. I'd very much like seeing him do some cool stuff in regards to martial arts or crowd manipulation at least every now and then.
Isn't that what he always does, always did since the Cell Games, and always will do? Just two days ago you witnessed an episode entirely dedicated to that kind of usual, typical stuff from Mr. Satan, from whom you can't really expect much else. He's there for comedy purposes, to fill a few episodes and also because he was somewhat instrumental to actually defeat Kid Buu and gradually developed what is now a full-fledged blood relationship with some of the main characters. Some of us were just complaining about the overuse of Mr. Satan's usual incompetence/luck/taking credit for real warriors' feats routine, and now you want even more of that? I'd tell you not to expect much from Mr. Satan from now on, they basically had to fill one episode and decided to dedicate it almost entirely to Mr. Satan, for some reason.
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JoeCapricorn wrote:
I wonder what kind of fighters we'll see from Universe 6. On the one hand, they might not be at the level of Goku and Vegeta, on the other, we might have an evil SSJB guy. If their planet Plant were still around, there could be strong Saiyans from this twin Universe.
Theoretically, there could a Freeza-level guy, a Bojack-level guy, a Cell-level guy, a Dabura-level guy, a Majin/Kid Buu-level guy, and so on, much in the same way there is in the 7th Universe, especially taking into account that they're "twin" Universes (whatever that might mean, but I've got my own theories). Whoever shows up, regardless of their scale of strength, will always be below the Vados + Champa duo, just like everyone, regardless of their unbelievable fantastic might is and probably will always be below the ultimate Beerus + Whis duo.
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I think the way to look at the stage Goku (and later Vegeta) achieve, by absorbing the power and abilities of the particular Super Saiya-jin God stage, officially called Saiya-jin beyond God, utterly makes actually physically transforming into Super Saiya-jin God (through the ritual or any other way). If the Saiya-jin is gifted enough to make that power and those abilities his own after such a short time using the SSJG stage, as Goku and Vegeta are, actually transforming into the stage physically, if they can, doesn't present any advantages.
Basically, in the Saiya-jin beyond God stage Goku and Vegeta are able to use the exact same power and abilities (even making others unable to sense their godly Ki) the SSJG particular stage provides.
What I AM much more hyped about is to see just when (this one is pretty easy, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the Movies' version of events, and in the next, incoming episodes), why and how Goku and Vegeta decide/are able to achieve or develop a further stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. I have my theories on how the SSJGSSJ stage is an advantage and a power-up when compared to both SSJG and Saiya-jin beyond God, and I've stated them here before more than once, but I want to see just by how much there is a power increase, and potentially other advantages to the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage. It could also be that, just like Goku "explains" to Freeza in Fukkatsu no F, going Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is a mere consequence of the fact that the Saiya-jin, who has attained Super Saiya-jin God and Saiya-jin beyond God, had previously attained one or several of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and going SSJGSSJG provides a somewhat equivalent (or not so equivalent) power-up to the Saiya-jin beyond God stage just like any Super Saiya-jin stage powers up the Saiya-jin's base power exponentially, depending on which of the several SSJ stages it is. We need to remember that before Goku first achieved Super Saiya-jin on Namek against Freeza, and was soon followed by the appearances of Mirai no Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, etc., all of them as Super Saiya-jins, achieving that transformation, even the regular one, was an extremely rare occurrence, which according to what Vegeta was told happened only about every thousand years.
Achieving the first, regular Super Saiya-jin was a feat at the Freeza times, but so many further ones were achieved (Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, even Super Saiya-jin 3), so by the time Beerus arrives and all of this recent material takes place, whether in the Movies' version of in the retold version within DBSuper, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, just to mention the Saiya-jin, have gone through so much and so many transformations and insane power-ups that, in order to have at least a chance to reach, or come close to reach the likes of the most powerful entities the Universe has ever known, far above anything they've encounter before, even all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, further stages of Super Saiya-jin transformations needed to be achieved, although I believe the Super Saiya-jin God, and thus the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages, are much more of a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up than an actual successor to the most powerful Super Saiya-jin stage achieved before (SSJ3), as I believe all of them basically build upon each other; the SSJG and SSJGSSJ stages are achieved through entirely different methods, provide a completely different set of abilities and, overall, happen in entirely different circumstances, but that's just my position on the matter.
rereboy wrote:
Because suppressing Ki is completely different from an actual transformation. Ginyu was able to accurately predict Goku's power despite his suppressing, but he couldn't predict Goku's Kaioken because that also works differently from just suppressing Ki. Beerus can also see or guess a person's real power within their current form, but he can't really predict transformations. And arguing that Beerus could even do what Ginyu could regarding judging a fighter doesn't make much sense.
Ginyu, regardless of his power level, which is by now obviously ridiculous, was a gifted and careful martial artist and was able to accurately judge Goku's actual power level in his base form (he had no idea about the Kaio-Ken technique, which hightened Goku's power to insane proportions).
It all comes down to one's ability, regardless of their actual level of power, to evaluate and judge an opponent's strength and abilities martial arts-wise and power level-wise base on one's experience, gift and intelligence. Even Muten Roshi, Karin or Krillin are able to accurately predict just how much of a menace a villain is, and how their power compares to the main guys' strength, throughout DBZ.
Beerus, and obviously Whis, are so much high in the scale of expertise when it comes to martial arts and power that it's pretty much obvious and acceptable that it's rather easy for them to judge someone's Ki, even if they have the ability to suppress it partially or entirely to 0. By the way, I've always believed that if you use some sort of Ki manipulation technique or if you transform into a stage that provides you with a profound power up (Kaio-Ken, any of the Super Saiya-jin stages), it's obvious that there's no way you can suppress your Ki, even if, refraining from using Ki attacks and particular transformations, in one's base form, one has the ability to totally or partially suppress their Ki).
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irreality wrote:
As I rewatched this episode, I noticed an interesting bit of character development for Goku -- I think it parallels the bit on BoG, but I actually think this was more intriguing. He is genuinely *angry* about Beerus trying to tell him he has limits. It seemed to anger/upset him more than the eventual fate of the earth or anything like. Even if he dies, he wants people to know: he can always train more do something more and reach a higher level and get a rematch. He is not a static being restrained by others' estimation of his power level. Even a God can't tell him what he can or cannot do.
I don't know, I liked that insight into Goku's character: for him, the worst thing in the world would be to be stuck in a level without improvement, or to be told there is something he cannot do.
Is it a character progression of regression? In Cell, he was pretty blasé about there being things his son could do that he couldn't. Maybe, interacting more with the other world and with Gods have given him a different impression of what is possible. Or he doesn't see life with fixed limits anymore.
It is different than him being angry at having to use other people's power, but it is interesting to me to see the things that rile up Goku. He isn't as bothered with not being the strongest (for now -- he definitely will want a rematch) or even being defeated, but at being told he cannot eventually be the strongest, or stop an attack even if he shouldn't be strong enough to do so. Overall, I like that.
True, Goku's ultimate goal, as a mixture of the fact he's a pure Saiya-jin coupled with his natural personality, is to go beyond his and others' limits, and to actually see no actual limits both to his own power and to anyone's power. That's what keeps him going on a permanent basis. He only tosses that aside and sets other priorities in particular dramatic circumstances, when he gets more serious about a menace over Earth, his friends, human beings and life in general.
I actually found it disappointing that one of the things they changed (in this case, left out) in DBSuper's Beerus arc when compared to BoG was the fact that he doesn't actually get angry, or at least say he's angry, at the fact that Super Saiya-jin was a stage he couldn't achieve by himself, he needed the help of others. That doesn't compare to Vegeta's pathological pride, obviously, but it demonstrates and illustrates yet again that Goku also has quite a lot of proud as a man and as a martial artist/fighter.
Goku once said that having to face someone even stronger than Freeza made him both scared and typically excited, but the latter always gets the advantage, he'll always seek stronger opponents and he doesn't appear to mind, unlike Vegeta, that there are guys out there who might be stronger, or even far stronger than him, and this has been shown in multiple occasions (when he finds Mr. Popo, his admiration of Vegeta's superior ability during their first fight, etc.).
I agree, Goku's worst nightmare would be stuck with no further challenges, but he shouldn't complain, nor should Vegeta, as they faced each other, then went through an entire war on Namek, then faced Freeza, then the Jinzouningen and Cell, and then even Majin Buu. Now they're being presented with the likes of Beerus + Whis and a version of Freeza which puts him close to the strongest warriors in BoG and Fukkastu no F in terms of ranking.
As for Vegeta, not only does he naturally desire the typical Saiya-jin need to fight and train constantly, he's a fighting genius and has apparently regained his full obsession to surpass Kakarotto, even after the Majin Buu arc admittance that Goku was somehow always one step ahead of him just when he thought he had caught him and that he was better than him; also, for a hardcore Vegeta fan, it's fantastic to have him regain his previous obsession to be not only stronger than Kakarotto, but the very strongest, above everyone, in the Universe, whoever the previous number one guys used to be, as seen in the end of episode 14. Besides, what we saw in the last episode, with him standing on the hills by himself, apparently for days on end, reminded us of his typical days-on-end pondering of achieving new heights to overcome Kakarotto and everyone else, just like we saw in the Jinzouningen saga twice (the first time he went there to ponder on his recent defeat by #18 and recover mentally and emotionally from it, and then he, just like Goku, was pondering on how to overcome the regular Super Saiya-jin stage to be able to take on the Jinzouningen and Cell, if it was possible at all to go beyond Super Saiya-jin, but at that time he was with Mirai no Trunks, although utterly ignoring him).
They're clearly going for Goku and Vegeta to be arguably the main characters (and heroes) in the whole of DBSuper, perhaps alongside Beerus in terms of protagonism. Even someone as incredibly strong as Ultimate Gohan, not to mention Gotenks, Piccolo, #18, Tenshinhan, Majin Buu, or Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 2 and 3 Goku will be pushed to the sidelines and even those who were, at one point, able to keep up with the degrees of power during the Majin Buu arc will no longer be even in the same league as this particular group of "selected" insanely powerful warriors, the very strongest in the 7th and 6th Universes (Whis, Vados, Beerus, Champa, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta).
It's good to keep the old characters around and give them some more or less prominent screen time, and even fighting time, but, as far as the good guys go, Gohan has just been utterly overwhelmed and replaced by Vegeta, and it's ultimately Goku and Vegeta who are going, probably now and forever, to be the only ones with the potential and capability to come close, equal or even, at some point in the future, surpass Beerus, Whis, Vados and Champa. Vegeta skipped/will skip Super Saiya-jin 3 and attain Super Saiya-jin God at some point, basically automatically surpassing a number of warriors who were above him previously at his strongest during the Majin Buu arc, and FINALLY, not only that, he's actually soon going to be not "always one step behind Kakarotto" (the typical routine throughout DBZ), but actually on par with him, matching his degree of power to his degree of protagonism in the TV series.
Chiki wrote:
Toei logic: Vegeta can't even go SSJ3 on his own, but he can go SSJG on his own, which requires 6 Saiyans.
Let's hope this doesn't happen.
It could be argued whether or not Super Saiya-jin God is a particular stage which can be achieved by any other means other than through the ritual, but if it isn't, then Vegeta will have to suck it up and everyone will have to hold hands again at some point, pretty soon. There are numerous instances of fighters being able to mimic another warrior's transformation or technique just by witnessing it, and how it's performed, but I don't think that will be the case here.
Vegeta absolutely and logically needs to attain Super Saiya-jin God first of all, just like Goku did, then incorporate its power and abilities into his base form, just like Goku did, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to become a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin later. He basically needs to follow Goku's every step (which he did throughout DBZ in terms of SSJ stages, with the only exception being SSJ3).
We'll need to see just how Vegeta will attain Super Saiya-jin God. It would be cool, on one hand, if he did it by himself somehow, as it would put him automatically above Goku, who could only do it with the help of the others in the ritual, but somehow it wouldn't make a lot of sense or look too good. I personally think that, UNFORTUNATELY, Vegeta will undergo the ritual and reach SSJG just like Goku did, but that is one of the off-screen events which happened between BoG and Fukkatsu no F that we won't be able to see actually on-screen in DBSuper's version of the events. That, alongside Freeza training, Goku's and Vegeta's decision to go to Beerus' planet to train under Whis, and their development of the SSJGSSJG stage were the off-screen events that I really, really wanted to see on-screen in DBSuper, and at least one them will be shown and given the proper screen time in one or two episodes pretty soon.
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Gmez9 wrote:
Every week that passes by I get more excited (even if there's a mediocre episode) because of universe 6 arc and beyond. Can't wait to see how they handle it..
As time gradually passes, the process of retelling BoG and Fukkatsu as two arcs within DBSuper, taking the first 25 to 30 episodes of an all-new TV series in 18 years to basically retell the same exact events in the same exact circumstances with only some minor changes or adaptations here and there (which a chunk of fans didn't appreciate), is moving forward and we're coming closer and closer to the actually entirely new stuff. We've already got quite a bit of information on who the main characters/antagonists will be and some details on how events will proceed, but I'm still absolutely hyped to see who, if anybody besides Vados and Champa, ends up showing up from the 6th Universe, and how powerful they could be, and just how the relationship and the interactions between the Beerus + Whis duo and the Vados + Champa duo will play out; I'm also hyped to see who ends up on top after the whole arc is over, but I'm betting on Beerus (and thus Whis and their respective 6th Universe counterparts) still being above both Goku and Vegeta, which wouldn't be a totally new scenario as far as ending a saga goes. I doubt Vegeta will be successful for the first time in actually surpassing not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus, Whis, Vados and Champa. For some reason I believe the new characters/antagonists who were introduced and thrown our way in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper are and will always be the ultimate warriors in any universe. Goku and Vegeta did/will do quite well to come close to their levels of power and to have the honor to be trained by Whis just like Hakaishin Beerus did, but at the end of the arc/series I bet the Hakaishins and their respective attendants will still be unreachable (unless, as stated in Fukkastu no F, Goku and Vegeta actually worked and fought together as SSJGSSJ, which won't happen due to their pride and is something that provides an interesting catch to add to all others regarding the interaction between Goku and Vegeta and its implications.
We'll have to wait and see the actual episodes as they come out, or wait for any leaks or official information, but none of us can be sure, at this particular point, if, in fact, the 6th Universe arc will actually be the last in DBSuper, which is something we, all of us, have been assuming based on actually nothing, the series could continue and stretch out with new arcs beyond the 6th Universe one, perhaps even linking to the last 3 episodes of DBZ and dealing with the introduction of Uub and that last Tenkaichi Budokai. It's obvious events will continue to be depicted sooner or later even after the 6th Universe arcs ends, and even after DBSuper ends. Dragonball is immortal and its potential is virtually limitless, new stuff will always, sooner or later, come up and appear as a follow-up to the previous episodes, Movies and Specials.
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Why avoid conversation? If I don't reply to other posts that annoy me, it's because I don't think there'd be any worthwhile conversation to have. Surely, you must have a reason to continue to bring up GT where it's not relevant, hence why I asked. You're acting unnecessarily defensive over a simple question.
Agree. Him going on a mini rant on GT is pretty pointless.
Comparing DBSuper to GT has been done somewhat extensively and intensively in recent months, we've gone into it in detail. GT was discussed, debated and scrutinized for over a decade, we can, and we did, bring it up again to compare it with DBSuper in some interesting aspects, but I'd think the main conclusions have already been reached.
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TripleRach wrote:
To clarify, Masako Nozawa's birthday is the 25th, which has not yet occurred in any time zone as of this writing. I guess it's relevant here because it will coincide with the airing of Super 16, and they've already celebrated with this cake.
Image
I just hope she lives healthily for a long, long time. Replacing a voice-actor for Goku (not to mention Gohan and Goten), who is basically the main character and hero in the franchise, would have quite an impact on the series, at least the original Japanese version of it, which is and has been actually by now the only one I deliberately pay attention to.
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buutenks wrote:
I'm sure vegeta vs freeza fight going to last an episode or 2 ^^.And goku vs freeza proly 4-5 episodes i assume.
Then z fighters vs freeza's men a few episodes,wow ROF saga going to be action packed.
If we consider just how they stretched the Super Saiya-jin 2 vs Beerus fight, the everyone on Earth vs Beerus fight, the enraged Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta vs Beerus fight, the ritual to achieve Super Saiya-jin God, and especially the Super Saiya-jin God Goku vs Beerus one (lasting as much as five entire episodes, with lots of what could be called "filler" material), one could assume that, yeah, one minute worth of major events in the Movies' version equals about half an episode. I wouldn't go so far as saying SSJGSSJ Vegeta vs Freeza will be stretched to as much as two episodes, that would be giving Vegeta far too much protagonism, but they still need to see him beating the sh** out of Freeza again in that badass manner, and this time a little bit longer. A TV series of episodes provides just the chance to expand upon particular events fans would have liked to see stretched out in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, so instead of filling DBSuper's episodes with "filler" material or inconsequential and out-of-place events (not saying it's being done a lot, don't get me wrong), every bit and second of the following episodes should be partially dedicated to go beyond what we saw in the Movies. You get less animation quality, but more content to please all the fans regardless of what they're looking forward the most or which fight or which character they want to see developed the most.
Saiya-jin beyond God vs fourth form Freeza will probably take one to two episodes, and by the time one of the ends, that's exactly when Freeza completes his transformation (which will take a while, I'm assuming) into Golden Freeza, following the typical trend of DBZ, which has occurred already more than once in DBSuper. I don't see the particular transformation into Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin by Goku taking up too long, though, nor Vegeta's, in fact, and then I guess we'll get four to five episodes worth of Golden Freeza vs SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta, much in the same way it took as much as five episodes to cover the entire battle between SSJG Goku and Beerus. The first half of the Movie, with Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Muten Roshi, Gohan and Krillin taking on Freeza' soldiers will probably be done in one episode, not much longer than that. What they ABSOLUTELY need to show on-screen, either during or before the sh** really hits the fan, is Freeza's four-month training, Goku's and Vegeta's training under Whis and both of their decisions to develop a further stage beyond SSJG and Saiya-jin beyond God. I hope we get to see the first time they achieve it as it happens in one of the incoming episodes. Vegeta's reaching of the Super Saiya-jin God stage also needs to be shown on screen, regardless of how he achieves it (and I do see it as a pre-requisite for him to be able to achieve Saiya-jin beyond God, first of all, and then SSJGSSJ, otherwise it wouldn't really make sense).
I see the fact that we have a weekly TV series of episodes as the perfect opportunity to cover on-screen a few particular events most of us are extremely keen on watching, those which happened at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the Movies' version of events, now that they're dealing with an entirely different way of depicting events when compared to the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature.
Fukkatsu no F does need some further explanation and retouching when compared to BoG, but I'm more than glad that everyone got their fighting time in Fukkatsu no F, even if it's against ridiculously-weak Freeza soldiers (who, before his enormous power-up and skip was ridiculous himself to, at least, Piccolo and Gohan at this point), so that's another thing that not only do I NOT want them to change, I want them to quite in fact expand on them both in terms of quantity and quality. And yeah, I hope they correct that ridiculous mistake of having someone like Shisami, who's supposed to be about as strong as Dodoria or Zarbon, be a match for Piccolo, who has at this point not only surpassed all of Freeza's previous forms, he actually went beyond that and surpassed all of the regular Super Saiya-jins, #16, #17, #18 and all versions of Cell except his perfect form variations. Piccolo should be able to wipe him out without even moving by this time.
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ekrolo2 wrote:
Pardon my french here but what the flying scum sucking shit fuck did Chi-Chi spend the equivalent of a 100 million dollars on?!
Doesn't really matter, all it takes is for Goku and the gang to save the entire Universe again, have Mr. Satan take the credit for it and, out of respect, having the latter giving the money to the Son and/or Briefs family. Coming up with someone like Mr. Satan, keeping him around throughout the Majin Buu arc and having him actually play a somewhat important role and become part of the team that comprised Goku and company since forever was actually a nicely-done move and a way to, for example, among other things, solve Chi Chi's financial problems (which are, of course, a recurrent theme and not really of any importance to the actual meat of the arcs, we just happen to be talking about it recently because they dedicated a few minutes to the display of Chi Chi's handling of the money Goku got, I highly doubt that Chi Chi, and any other supporting/minor character, for that matter, will get anything even close to significant screen time now that we're rapidly moving forward to the for the Freeza arc and the build-up for the 6th Universe arc. That's why, in part, these smoother episodes between the major arcs seem out of place and almost like "filler" material, just like so many in DBZ (although in DBZ, not only a few episodes, and in fact entire arcs were filler, most of the filler material was actually thrown into the middle of serious episodes themselves).
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
Best grandma ever. The way she can still pull off Son Gohan/Son Goten, and especially the main character Son Goku, despiste her old age leaves me speechless.
Happy Birhtday Nozawa-sama!
I know this should go in the power level thread, but since I don't want to double-post over there, I'd like your thoughts on the following updated lists on the power level of the fighters in all of Dragonball's major arcs. I'll keep each arc to a maximum of something like 10 to 15 warriors.
Not going into estimations and actual numbers and figures, and I'll obviously refrain from including any non-canon, Movie characters and villains.
Piccolo Daimao arc:
1 - Goku
2 - Piccolo Daimao (young)
3 - Piccolo Daimao (old)
4 - Drum
5 - Tenshinhan
6 - Goku (vs Piccolo Daimao first time)
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Tambourine
9 - The average son of Piccolo Daimao
10 - Cymbal
11 - Muten Roshi
12 - Mutaito-sama
Piccolo Jr. arc:
1 - Goku (without weighted clothing)
2 - Piccolo
3 - Kami
4 - Mr. Popo
5 - Tenshinhan
6 - Krillin
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Yamcha
Saiya-jin arc:
1 - Vegeta (Oozaru)
2 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x4)
3 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x3)
4 - Vegeta
5 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x2)
6 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x1)
7 - Gohan (Oozaru)
8 - Goku (full power in base form)
9 - Goku (suppressed Ki in base form)
10 - Nappa
11 - Gohan (Masenko against Nappa)
12 - Piccolo (full power against Nappa)
13 - Tenshinhan (Kikoho against Nappa)
14 - Piccolo (second Makankosappo against Raditz)
15 - Krillin (full power against Nappa)
Freeza arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - 100% fourth form Freeza
3 - 70% fourth form Freeza
4 - 50% fourth form Freeza
5 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x20)
6 - 33% fourth form Freeza
7 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x10)
8 - Third form Freeza
9 - Goku (base against Freeza)
10 - Second form Freeza
11 - Vegeta (after final Zenkai)
12 - Piccolo (after fusing with Nail)
13 - First form Freeza
14 - Vegeta (against Jeice and Freeza)
15 - Goku (Kaio-Ken x3 against Ginyu)
Jinzouningen arc:
1 - #16
2 - #17
3 - #18
4 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
7 - King Cold
8 - Freeza (on Earth)
9 - Piccolo
10 - Dr. Gero
11 - #19
12 - Gohan
13 - Tenshinhan
14 - Krillin
15 - Yamcha
Cell arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
2 - Perfect form Cell (after explosion and Zenkai)
3 - Perfect form Cell (using all of his power)
4 - Perfect form Cell
5 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan
7 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Trunks
8 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
9 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks
10 - Piccolo (at the Cell Games)
11 - Semi-perfect Cell
12 - #16
13 - Imperfect Cell (after absorbing millions of humans)
14 - Piccolo (after fusing with Kami)
15 - #17
Majin Buu arc:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Ultimate Gohan
6 - Huge Buu (after absorbing the strongest of the Kaioshin)
7 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
8 - Super Buu
9 - Kid Buu
10 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
12 - Evil Buu
13 - Majin Buu
14 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
15 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta
Beerus arc/BoG:
1 - Whis
2 - Vados
3 - Beerus
4 - Champa
5 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with power of all others at the first attempt of the ritual)
7 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (with power boost after Beerus slaps Bulma)
8 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
9 - Ultimate Gohan
10 - Gotenks
11 - Majin Buu
12 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
13 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
14 - Piccolo
15 - #18
Freeza arc/Fukkatsu no F:
1 - Whis
2 - Vados
3 - Beerus
4 - Champa
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
7 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
8 - Saiya-jin beyond God Goku
9 - Saiya-jin beyond God Vegeta
10 - Fourth form Freeza (after four-month training)
11 - First form Freeza (after four-month tranining)
12 - Ultimate Gohan
13 - Piccolo
This was kind of hastily done. Any thoughts or potential discussions would be welcome.
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buutenks wrote:
Wow,long post and surprisingly i read it all.
I've been both criticized and acclaimed for my way of posting. I repeat myself a lot, I almost always write huge amounts of text, I address numerous issues with carefully-thought concepts within the same post, etc. Some like it, some don't. I'm glad to know you read the entire thing, I believe most do despite the enormity of my posts.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Thank you 1,000 times over for 2 reasons:
1 is that your Buu powers are on-point (though personally I believe SSJ3 Goku could take on Super Buu, but whatevs). You have no idea, there's an entire section of the Z fanbase that FIRMLY BELIEVE:
SSJ1 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.
Those people tick me off.
Secondly, thank you for putting Golden Freeza above Goku/Vegeta. Again, there's a huge portion of fans who believe, "Freeza was never truly a threat.", because they didn't want to pay attention to the film and not realize Freeza was losing power. They thought Goku could've won the entire time if he wanted to. And there's tons of fans who believe Vegeta > Goku because of that scene where Vegeta turned God and pummeled Freeza, despite the fact that Freeza by this point was heavily battle-wourn and running heavily low on power.
But again, thank you for being one of the smart ones.
Well, the three particular comparisons you're referring need to be taken and discussed in a different light, each of them.
To be honest with you, when I made one or two lists not too long ago I deliberately chose to put Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin God Goku above Golden Freeza because they ultimately beat him, but that didn't mean I wasn't aware of the fact that, at its peak, Golden Freeza's power was beyond theirs. The fact that they ultimately beat him, both of them (coupled with the fact that I kind of refuse to have Freeza reach a level of power beyond even the kind of strength that puts Goku and Vegeta in the same/close to the same tier as Beerus and Whis) led me to do that before. This time, I adapted it.
There's absolutely no way Super Saiya-jin Gotenks is above Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, regardless of whether the latter is using all of his power or not, or whether he's dead or not, etc. What COULD be argued is whether Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is above Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku; all we have to compare and base our positions on regarding this is the fact that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks appeared to have the upper hand against Super Buu just before the Fusion time ran out, but on the other hand we don't really get to see Goku fighting that same version of Super Buu in his Super Saiya-jin 3 state, do we? He admits he can't beat even the weakest form of Super Buu (with no-one absorbed) when they're inside his body, but at that time he's in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, for some reason he doesn't undergo the SSJ3 transformation. It's hard to know or estimate if SSJ3 Goku would be able to be beat the weakest version of Super Buu, but taking into account that Ultimate Gohan absolutely thrashed him, and since I put Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku on par with Ultimate Gohan at his peak when he shows up, it's only a matter of logic to imply and assume that SSJ3 Goku would be able to beat Super Buu. But then again, when Super Buu is undergoing the transformation process after Vegeta rips fat Majin Buu from his system, Goku does say that Kid Buu is someone they might just do something about, displaying a level of relief that wasn't present before when he fought Super Buu, which again just makes it even more complicated to know or estimate just by how much each of the versions of Super/Kid Buu is the strongest. This debate will probably never end, as official info will most likely never be released on the matter.
Yeah, although I'm a hardcore Vegeta fan and had orgasms when I saw him beat the sh** out of Freeza in Fukkatsu no F taking personal revenge after decades of humiliation, I think that the mere fact that it is Vegeta who beats Freeza and even causes him to revert to his regular fourth form doesn't signify that SSJGSSJ Vegeta is stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku. By the time Vegeta intervenes and has his long awaited go at Freeza, finally taking turns with Goku, Freeza was already weakened and unable to sustain the enormous level of power he had had access to minutes prior when he got the upper hand against Goku. I would say that, if Goku continued to battle Freeza instead of getting pierced through the heart and giving his fighting place and time to Vegeta, Goku would do to Freeza just exactly what Vegeta did (although not in that badass, straight manner, of course, but that has to do with personality and approach to fighting, not power). I would say SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta are exactly on par with each other, and the same goes for their respective Saiya-jin beyond God stages. This means that FINALLY Vegeta HAS caught up with Goku, surpassed and skipped a number of fighters who were stronger than him during the Majin Buu and Beerus arcs, and gained his place as equal, if not superior, to Goku, and close to Beerus, Whis, Champa and Vados. Vegeta's instance of skipping so many fighters and gaining so much of a power-up in Fukkatsu no F isn't even comparable to Freeza; Vegeta's previous strongest stage was a "mere" Super Saiya-jin 2, which was outclassed as early as in the Majin Buu arc, whereas Freeza went from a complete weakling (regardless of whether we're talking about his first form or his absolute maximum 100% usage of power) from his Namek times, when compared to so many fighters and stages throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, to a serious menace even to the stages Goku and Vegeta just reached, which put them close to Beerus and Whis. It's the very definition of skyrocketing.
sintzu wrote:
I'd put Ssj2 Goku&Vegeta on the same level during the Buu arc.
Yeah, I honestly believe that when they fight early in the Majin Buu arc in their respective Super Saiya-jin 2 stages they're exactly on par with each other. I just deliberately wanted to set a space in the ranking/list for one fighter only, so even if the next is just the same as the one that comes before/above him, I just randomly chose one to go above the other.
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It's kind of funny and interesting that the recent stuff they've thrown our way (BoG, Fukkastu no F, DBSuper) touched on material which hadn't been discussed for over a decade, and actually closer to two decades, namely Goku's power (in his base form or in his Super Saiya-jin form) when compared to Freeza on Namek.
All of a sudden we find ourselves discussing just how the power of someone the likes of Freeza in his old Namek days, not to mention the rest of the comparisons, lists and rankings made of the most recently introduced characters and stages.
If you look at it, Freeza is so charismatic a villain in the franchise that in EVERYTHING they released anime or manga-wise after 11 years of inactivity (2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Fukkastu no F and DBSuper) that he's either mentioned, seen in visual displays or, in fact, have an entire Movie dedicated entirely to him, featuring an unprecedented increase in power (so great that it is still a little hard to believe or grasp, in fact). Besides, the recent (and utterly successful) introduction of Beerus into the franchise led to the further establishment of links between not only Beerus and previously unexplained events involving the Kaioshin and Kaiou-sama, but also with the Saiya-jin and Freeza himself. One could argue about their obvious similarities here and there, but forcibly matching his degree of power to his intended degree of protagonism in this full-fledged return can pose some issues: I mean, Freeza went from someone who was below any regular Super Saiya-jin, episodes later any regular Super Saiya-jin was easily beated by #16, #17, #18, Piccolo or Cell, Cell was smashed by Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, his son his even more powerful than him but is no match for Cell in his perfect form; it takes Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan to finish Cell off, but in the Majin Buu arc even Goku and Vegeta, as Super Saiya-jin 2 themselves, and beyond Gohan at the Cell Games, are completely outmatched by Gotenks, Vegitto, Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, and then all of these are outmatched by Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta - after ALL of this, after so many years of constant fighting, development and achievement of new transformation and insane amounts of power by so many different warriors, good and evil, Freeza trains for four months and all of a sudden he skips it all and skyrockets to the level and tier of Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta.
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Sodhi wrote:
Gmez9 wrote:
Super manga of course is canon. But as for the anime, its an iffy thing. Partially canon perhaps if that's even a term.
This is not true at all. Super is more canon than the manga. All manga is doing is promoting the anime. That's the reason it skips sop much stuff.
We've become used throughout the release of DB and DBZ to put the manga above the anime in terms of "canonness", as the anime is an adaptation of the manga, which is the original material, and the anime is constantly packed with partial or entire episodes and even full arcs worth of filler material.
If this still applies, then the manga takes precedence over the anime, so whatever happens in the anime which isn't shown in the manga necessarily needs to be considered filler material, but things are changing, now we're getting stuff which IS in the manga and isn't - as of yet - in the anime (Champa's and Vados' appearances and interactions with other characters, most notably). One other thing which is changing is the fact that we've never had to deal with a retelling of two Movies in the same exact circumstances (with only minor adaptations and changes here and there) in a new TV series of episodes just 2 years and a few months after they were created and release, and for some time some of us even had trouble trying to figure out just which version was the one to be taken as a direct canon continuation of DBZ's Majin Buu arc, even involving discussions over time placements, etc.
All of this begs the question which has been asked more than once: was it the right decision to go and dedicate the first two arcs, and the first 25 to 30 episodes, of the first TV series in 18 years to retell two recently released Movies in the same exact circumstances? I have my own positions on the matter and I've expressed them before, but I'd like to see yours.
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buutenks wrote:
And one episode for z fighters?Thats way to low,i wanna see 2-3 episodes of them beating the crap out of those minions.
Two or three episodes of Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo (along with Tenshinhan, Krillin and Muten Roshi) beating weaklings with a power level of probably less than 1.000? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely approve bringing back some of the old members of the team (ones much more powerful than the others, with the difference between Gohan and Piccolo and Tenshinhan and Krillin being absolutely immense) and give them their proper respectful fighting time, but that's it, you can't really realistically expect them to stretch that thing for two to three episodes, that won't happen.
The fighting we're talking about looked awesome in Fukkatsu no F visually-wise and choreography-wise, but no amount of weakling Freeza underlings will ever be a menace for the likes of Ultimate Gohan or Piccolo, at least not enough for stretching the conflict for more than, say, one full episode. Literally, Gohan or Piccolo could very well wipe out the entire army with ONE martial arts move or a Ki blast if they wanted, given the amount of power they have gained by this point after so many years and arcs. We're talking about completely different dimensions of power altogether. The introduction of a Freeza army served the purpose of paying homage to the typical charismatic early Freeza days, with an army of thousands of soldiers, and it also, at the same time, simultaneously served the purpose of giving Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Jaco and Muten Roshi the screen, fighting time they deserve given their history in the franchise. Since none of them apparently can take on the newly super-powered-up Freeza, they need to wait for Goku and Vegeta and at least do their part in wiping out all of those underlings.
buutenks wrote:
And sisame vs piccolo.Well i take it that its simply inconsistent that sisame is mentioned to be on the same level as zarbon and dodoria and that he;s simply close to Piccolo in power.I also enjoyed the little fight they had in ROF movie hehe.
You need to take into account that being "close to Piccolo in power" at this point implies that Shisami is far, far stronger than Freeza using 100% of his power, any regular Super Saiya-jin or #16, #17 and #18. That's how much stronger Piccolo got throughout the Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs. I highly doubt a mere underling of Freeza's (and of Sorbet's) could come even close to something like that. That's one of the things they need to fix in the Freeza arc within DBSuper when compared to Fukkatsu no F: Shisami should in no way and under no circumstances pose any sort of threat to the likes of the current Piccolo, regardless of how tired or out-of-focus Piccolo could be, if that's the explanation some would resort to. But that's just me.
buutenks wrote:
And gohan one hit koing him while in ssj was nice.Or ssj2,hard to tell.
It's been discussed to death, actually, but we have several hints that make it possible to substantiate that Gohan has lost either entirely or partially his level of power of his Ultimate form (nor the ability, only the level of power); at least, in his base form, it doesn't even compare to what he displayed when he showed up to thrash Super Buu. Given Gohan's trademark lack of training, it could be argued that he lost part of the entirety of that power and went back to his previous strongest stage, Super Saiya-jin 2. It's unclear in Fukkatsu no F if he goes Super Saiya-jin or SSJ2 just to beat Shisami, but, again, how the hell would an underling like Shisami present enough of a challenge or menace to force Gohan to go Ultimate or Super Saiya-jin 2 to KO him? If Shisami is indeed THAT strong, and that's really saying A LOT, then after Freeza's army dispersed after his defeat on Namek, throughout these years they must have found some way to increase the power of particularly gifted warriors by insane amounts. If Shisami, on the other hand, is indeed comparable to Zarbon or Dodoria, we should take into account that Zarbon/Dodoria are nothing compared to Namek-era Freeza, Namek-era Freeza is NOTHING compared to the current Piccolo, and the current Piccolo is NOTHING compared to a Super Saiya-jin 2, so I would really need and welcome some clarification on the Piccolo + Gohan vs Shisami fight in the Freeza arc when the episodes come out.
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Doctor. wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
So would you guys say that Freeza is the first villain in the series to be the main villain twice?
Piccolo was the main villain twice.
In a way, yes, more than a son, he's the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, and they both have their own arcs in the later stages of DB separately dedicated to them. However, if we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo to be two entirely separate entities, then yeah, Freeza could be considered to be the main menace and villain protagonist of a main arc throughout DB, DBZ and DBSuper.
All of this is, of course, refraining from including the Movies and other non-canon material in the equation, otherwise Cooler or Brolly, just for example, would apply.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Retan wrote:
Also Vados says she's stronger then Whis.
Of course she did. Because why would she say that Whis is stronger? It's a pride thing. Mind you, they haven't seen each other in a thousand years. Whis reminds her of this, and says he's been training since then.
Until we get to see them engaging in actual battle, which is a far-fetched scenario (it's much more likely to see Beerus actually fighting Champa, in fact) we'll have nothing on which to base ourselves to state which one of the two is stronger. Vados could indeed be slightly above Vados or the other way around, or they could be exactly on par with each other. What does seem very plausible a scenario is that Beerus is above Champa.
It's interesting to see that both duos of brothers have an uneasy relationship and quite a lot of apparent rivalry going on between them. I bet all of us would cheer for the Beerus + Whis duo if any type of conflict occurs, since we've already embraced Beerus, and indeed Whis, to some degree, as part of the franchise and grown fond of them.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Retan wrote:
Also Vados says she's stronger then Whis.
Of course she did. Because why would she say that Whis is stronger? It's a pride thing. Mind you, they haven't seen each other in a thousand years. Whis reminds her of this, and says he's been training since then.
Until we get to see them engaging in actual battle, which is a far-fetched scenario (it's much more likely to see Beerus actually fighting Champa, in fact) we'll have nothing on which to base ourselves to state which one of the two is stronger. Vados could indeed be slightly above Vados or the other way around, or they could be exactly on par with each other. What does seem very plausible a scenario is that Beerus is above Champa.
It's interesting to see that both duos of brothers have an uneasy relationship and quite a lot of apparent rivalry going on between them. I bet all of us would cheer for the Beerus + Whis duo if any type of conflict occurs, since we've already embraced Beerus, and indeed Whis, to some degree, as part of the franchise and grown fond of them.
Doctor. wrote:
And who's to say Vados wasn't training since then as well? Not to mention Whis says she's the one who trained him. I think it's heavily implied that Vados is at least a bit stronger, like it's implied, but not outright stated, that Beerus is stronger than Champa.
Again, just because you trained someone at some point it doesn't mean you're automatically forever above them in terms of power. Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami and Kaiou-sama all trained Goku and he soon surpassed all of them. I don't see the argument of her having trained Whis as definite proof or even strong implication that she must be, or is probably above Whis. We'll most likely never know, the only way to know for sure is if official info was released, or if they fought each other, neither of which seems plausible at least for now (in fact, I don't see the latter happening ever at all).
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Captain Space wrote:
Preface: I'm aware this is quite off-topic, so I'm happy to discuss this in another thread.
My only problems with your logic, MaGyunia, are that:
1. You say SSJ Gotenks can't be above SSJ3 Goku...just because. Is there an actual reason?
2. You interpret Goku's statement that he can't beat Super Buu as referring only to his SSJ2, which doesn't make too much sense considering he can very easily go SSJ3 (and previously did so against multiple forms of Buu), but your main reason is that it's the only way to justify him as being able to beat Super Buu in SSJ3. And you think he can do that because you think his SSJ3 is equal-ish to mystic Gohan. And you think that...again...just because. (Also this contradicts with your actual list in that you have Gohan listed significantly above Goku, as he should be, but then here you say they're equal...?)
3. You admit Gotenks was about to beat Super Buu, i.e. Gotenks definitely outclassed Buu, but you still have Buu above Gotenks, which seems a bit contradictory.
You might have noticed that I specified at the end of the post you're referring to, with the list, that it was hastily done and was meant only and mainly to generate a discussion (although in the wrong thread, for the also specified reasons). Of course my ranking, especially in the Majin Buu arc, is subject to interpretation and arguments which are years-long and have been going on with no definite conclusion since forever, and of course my list contains debatable specifications. When you go deeper into it, you find that the list you just made contains inconsistencies when it comes to logic, as you pointed out in your second point and third points. Saying Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is definitely below Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is about on par with Ultimate Gohan when he shows up to thrash Super Buu is a matter of estimation, neither I nor you nor anybody else can say one way or another for sure.
Anyway, I could continue a debate on that list and the problems with the logic presented in the following post, and I was successful in generating some replies, but I'll take on those particular issues you've pointed out later on and in the proper thread.
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Doctor. wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Again, just because you trained someone at some point it doesn't mean you're automatically forever above them in terms of power. Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami and Kaiou-sama all trained Goku and he soon surpassed all of them. I don't see the argument of her having trained Whis as definite proof or even strong implication that she must be, or is probably above Whis. We'll most likely never know, the only way to know for sure is if official info was released, or if they fought each other, neither of which seems plausible at least for now (in fact, I don't see the latter happening ever at all).
Goku proved himself to be superior to those that taught him. Before he proved himself, it was right to assume he was still inferior. Before F, I never saw someone saying Roshi was stronger than Karin, most people just said Karin was stronger, why? Because he was the one who trained Roshi. And since Roshi never proved otherwise, there was no argument that one could make to have Roshi above Karin. Until it's proven otherwise, then what's the problem with having Vados superior to Whis if that's what the manga implies? I don't see any argument to support otherwise besides not wanting her to be that strong, for some reason.
I'm not saying she's weaker or stronger than Whis, and certainly not saying that Whis is definitely stronger; I'm just saying that just because she trained Whis at some point and she boasts she's above him is no good solid reason to base yourself, theoretically all scenarios are equally plausible: either she's slightly above him, or he's slightly above her, or they're exactly on par. For the reasons I specified, we'll probably never really know for sure. An actual fight or official info, either within the episodes themselves or provided by official sources, are the only ways to specify just how one warrior compares to another.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Retan wrote:
I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.
LMAO Did you just call me a sexist?
He might have been saying that to me, actually, as I've conceived a list just hours ago and I put Whis at number 1 and Vados at number 2, and I could have very well have chosen to do it the other way around, I just deliberately wanted one spot for one warrior and had to decide and went for Whis. If it was intended towards me, let me assure you - and I've done this once a few days ago - that whatever position I estimate Vados to be in regarding any other warrior in the franchise has NOTHING to do with the fact she's a lady. It never even crossed my mind.
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Araki wrote:
Retan wrote:
I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.
LOL this is hilarious.
No one can tell for sure she's really stronger, because Whis objected, and if she was stronger at one point, that happened 1000 years ago, and probably because she is older. That scene was supposed to leave it up in the air.
Yeah, and sorry Doctor., but that's just why "heavily implied" is too strong to apply under these current circumstances we've been discussing just now.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Also, this is an entirely different than what we're experiencing with Beerus and Champa. To be honest with you? Absolutely nothing has been "heavily implied". People are merely jumping to conclusions. Something being "heavily implied" means that there is a source that is basically saying something is some way. There is nothing like that for this. And no, I'm sorry, the scene in the manga of Champa "sneaking around" is not, nor was it "heavily implied", as being a way to prove that Champa is weaker than Beerus.
Seriously, I don't get that logic. Not wanting to get into a fight that would risk destroying everything (including what he's looking for), is now a sign of weakness? No. He simply wants to avoid something that is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. If he can get the job done /without/ Beerus noticing, even if he was stronger, it's still a better course of action to take. That doesn't make him weak. That makes him a great tactician.
What are you talking about? Vados comments on Champa's physique and, yes, heavily implies Champa is weaker. The only way it could get any clearer would be if she outright said Beerus was stronger.
...no. She was basically hitting him with a compliment and a joke at the same time. Who would win in a fight? A man who hasn't eaten in weeks? Literally nothing but skin and bones? Or a bigger guy with tons of fat? That's what she was implying, I believe. Saying, "Hey. He's fatter, so he must be stronger." Compliment. Harmful joke. One sentence.
Besides, commenting on a warrior's physique in the Dragonball world has absolutely no significance when it comes to measuring their actual power. One of the most basic principles of the franchise is that one's physique or appearance has NOTHING to do with how powerful they might be, and that just makes sense, as the way the warriors are able to destroy entire planets and fight the way the do is through training, transformations and especially becoming experts in Ki manipulation, which is a step further, or a ramification of the overall martial arts expertise.
I don't see this particular discussion getting anywhere, we obviously agree that we have absolutely no solid way to substantiate our position on how Vados compares to Whis for the reasons specified in all of these posts. Using "heavily implied" is going too far and I just think, for the reasons I've already stated, it doesn't apply at all in these circumstances.
Would be nice to move on to a different discussion by now.
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FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
How is one stronger because they're fat? Naturally, the one with the better build, the more athletic of the two, should be the stronger one. Beerus even laughs at the idea of him and Champa engaging in battle.
What? How is being skin and bones having a "better build"? You'd have /no/ build at that point, because you're skin at bones. Think of it this way: Who could lift more? A fat guy or a skin-and-bones guy? Being fat, in and of itself, implies that you naturally have more muscle than someone skinny.
Also, Beerus laughing at the idea of the two of them fighting could be him being prideful and thinking they're stronger. Or something else. A multitude of reasons. I think that we're jumping to conclusions way too fast and not thinking about it enough. It's the reason why we were wrong about almost every assumption we've made so far about both Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F. I think Toriyama has proved time and time again that he can be very unpredictable.
Again, what does the build, physique or appearance of a warrior have ANYTHING to do with how powerful they might be in the Dragonball universe? Obviously that comment on Champa's build was a harmless joke, nothing more.
Sometimes it's better to postulate no scenarios at all than to hastily estimate that one warrior has a strong probability of being above another based on virtually nothing at all. "Heavily implied" is just going to far, and sorry about that, Doctor.
We really have no strong, solid basis to estimate how Vados compares to Whis, either they fight each other (far-fetched scenario) or official info on the subject either by a character or by an official source is released, otherwise saying she must be, or has a strong probability or being above Whis just because she trained him in the past and said she was is no good reason to substantiate the claim that she probably is above Whis, for the reasons specified before in this particular discussion.
Please move on, guys, no definitive conclusion will be reached on this subject in these circumstances.
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Are you guys still over this? Everything because a recently-introduced character said she was stronger than another? I guess it's pointless to repeat what I've been saying in my last posts in this thread. End the discussion, this gets none of us nowhere, nor can it.
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Theoretically, both the manga and the anime are canon in this very particular case. None of what was present in the manga and wasn't in the anime means it didn't happen, and the other way around (this doesn't even actually apply, as, unlike the trend throughout DB and DBZ, a lot of what WAS present in the anime was not in the manga, you got entire episodes partially or fully splattered with filler material, and even entire arcs).
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Doctor. wrote:
It can change, I'm not saying it's definitive. I'm saying that we don't really have any reason to doubt Vados' statement as of yet.
We have absolutely NO reason to contradict her statement NOR to believe it. How many times do we have to repeat the same reasons for how inconsequential and pointless this discussion is?
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raulvalente wrote:
I would say that Whis is stronger than Vados because, even if Vados trained him 1,000 years ago... look at the Gods they live with.
Beerus likes fighting, even if he's lazy sometimes. It doesn't seem to me that Champa would be a God who likes fighting and training, so I think the long period of time that Whis spent with Beerus training improved his skills and made him stronger than Vados, who I think that didn't particularly train in the last 1,000 years.
Does this make any sense? :lol:
The outcome of the results of Whis' and Vados' training of their respective Hakaishins can be one way to measure their teaching skills, not necessarily their power.
But comparing Beerus and Champa, instead of Whis and Vados, I do believe that the schemes Champa undergoes, as opposed to Beerus straight-forward, proud way of approaching his goals makes me think he's got at least a much more admirable personality than Champa, regardless of his laziness and his instances of destroying more stuff than he's supposed to over trivial matters, at his whims. We've all grown fond of Beerus and, to some degree, Whis. I hope the Beerus + Whis duo turns out victorious over the Vados + Champa duo in whatever conflict they get involved in against each other.
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Are you having fun with my essays in this and especially other threads, Araki? :P
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Speaking of "canonness", I've always considered whatever doesn't contradict or create or generate inconsistencies with the manga's sequence of events in terms of timeline is canon (an example being Garlic Jr.'s arc, or Movie 9). I know it's a controversial view, and might even be considered inaccurate or incorrect, but it's just one of many ways to look at the whole "is this canon?" debate. In this particular case, DBSuper's anime hasn't shown events which the manga version did, which is a direct contradiction with what we were used to in DB and DBZ, in which it was the other way around, the anime was based on the manga, which was the original work, and its episodes were splattered with partial or entirely filler material, not to mention entire arcs (not to mention GT, which is an entire non-canon TV series).
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Don't double-post. It's against the acceptable rules.
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Kamiccolo9 wrote:
So is mini-modding. If your entire post consists of informing someone else about the rules, without adding anything to the discussion, it's best to just use the report button.
Quite in fact, as you may know yourself, my posts usually consist of huge amounts of well-conceived texts covering many different themes within the same post, and I've been commended on adding quite a lot to the discussions. When I broke the rules (I myself double-posted several times months ago) at the beginning everyone was criticizing me and reminding me about the rules, I thought it wasn't that big a deal and I was just trying to help.
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Nice episode altogether, but seems like the next one will be pretty much focused on Goku's version of what Vegeta just went through. Extremely Vegeta-dedicated episode altogether.
Honorable mentions:
- Goku's interactions with Krillin, it's actually been a while since they spent time with each other, being best friends and all
- Vegeta's moment in the hills, again, like in last week's episode, reminding one of his typical trademark lonely moments to ponder on his power in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs (a degree of Vegeta seriousness that always ends up being followed by Vegeta silliness in DBSuper)
- Vegeta using "kisama" to refer to even Whis, but then using "omae" after Whis tells him he can show him the method to surpass Goku
- Vegeta not even using Beerus-sama anymore, just plain Beerus, more than once, when telling Whis to bring Beerus with him so they can fight (what was he expecting after so little time had passed since he got a major beating from him?)
- Final confirmation that Vegeta's way of getting Whis to train him at Beerus' place before Kakarotto to surpass him is to beat Bulma at cooking for Whis. Seems like he'll do just about anything to accomplish his now regained DBZ arcs-long full obsession to surpass not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus
Can't change or shake the sensation that we're getting far too many Vegeta silly moments. They're overdoing it both with Piccolo and with Vegeta, but I guess we need to take into account the generation DBSuper is actually aimed at, this isn't the 80's or the 90's anymore.
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Pannaliciour wrote:
MaGyunia: please somebody call 911 he did a dubbelpost
It's actually spelled "double-post".
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There was no thread for this episode when it aired, locked or unlocked, and when I went to sleep there still wasn't, so I posted my immediate thoughts on the episode in another thread. Here they go:
Nice episode altogether, but seems like the next one will be pretty much focused on Goku's version of what Vegeta just went through. Extremely Vegeta-dedicated episode altogether.
Honorable mentions:
- Goku's interactions with Krillin, it's actually been a while since they spent time with each other, being best friends and all
- Vegeta's moment in the hills, again, like in last week's episode, reminding one of his typical trademark lonely moments to ponder on his power in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs (a degree of Vegeta seriousness that always ends up being followed by Vegeta silliness in DBSuper)
- Vegeta using "kisama" to refer to even Whis, but then using "omae" after Whis tells him he can show him the method to surpass Goku
- Vegeta not even using Beerus-sama anymore, just plain Beerus, more than once, when telling Whis to bring Beerus with him so they can fight (what was he expecting after so little time had passed since he got a major beating from him?)
- Final confirmation that Vegeta's way of getting Whis to train him at Beerus' place before Kakarotto to surpass him is to beat Bulma at cooking for Whis. Seems like he'll do just about anything to accomplish his now regained DBZ arcs-long full obsession to surpass not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus
Can't change or shake the sensation that we're getting far too many Vegeta silly moments. They're overdoing it both with Piccolo and with Vegeta, but I guess we need to take into account the generation DBSuper is actually aimed at, this isn't the 80's or the 90's anymore.
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There was no thread for this episode when it aired, locked or unlocked, and when I went to sleep there still wasn't, so I posted my immediate thoughts on the episode in another thread. Here they go:
Nice episode altogether, but seems like the next one will be pretty much focused on Goku's version of what Vegeta just went through. Extremely Vegeta-dedicated episode altogether.
Honorable mentions:
- Goku's interactions with Krillin, it's actually been a while since they spent time with each other, being best friends and all
- Vegeta's moment in the hills, again, like in last week's episode, reminding one of his typical trademark lonely moments to ponder on his power in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs (a degree of Vegeta seriousness that always ends up being followed by Vegeta silliness in DBSuper)
- Vegeta using "kisama" to refer to even Whis, but then using "omae" after Whis tells him he can show him the method to surpass Goku
- Vegeta not even using Beerus-sama anymore, just plain Beerus, more than once, when telling Whis to bring Beerus with him so they can fight (what was he expecting after so little time had passed since he got a major beating from him?)
- Final confirmation that Vegeta's way of getting Whis to train him at Beerus' place before Kakarotto to surpass him is to beat Bulma at cooking for Whis. Seems like he'll do just about anything to accomplish his now regained DBZ arcs-long full obsession to surpass not only Kakarotto but anyone else in the Universe, including Beerus
Can't change or shake the sensation that we're getting far too many Vegeta silly moments. They're overdoing it both with Piccolo and with Vegeta, but I guess we need to take into account the generation DBSuper is actually aimed at, this isn't the 80's or the 90's anymore.
Retan wrote:
Really enjoyed this episodes antics, LoL Vegeta is appparently much more talented when trying to defend people, then doing something for himself. :lol: Also I wonder if Vegeta will pull ahead of goku for a bit, but more likely will probably say Whis hasn't taught him anything yet, until Goku gets there, oh well.
Yeah, I thought about that myself, this time it appears Vegeta IS ahead of Goku (if not in terms of power, at least in terms of training and moving forward with his evolution, although Goku will soon catch up, obviously). The only time I can think of instantly of Vegeta being above Goku in terms of power after they fight for the first time is when he comes out of the RoSaT and is obviously stronger than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, but that's just because he went there first with Goku's approval.
irreality wrote:
How is it filler at all? Ok, Goku in the field with Krillin is just fun reminiscing, but it moves Krillin's character forward into his FnF personality. It is not filler because it is part of the progress of the story. Bulma offering food to Whis, Vegeta wanting to train with Whis, and convincing him via cup ramen, all these are crucial parts of FnF and U6 arcs. Arguably seeing Goku farming is unnecessary or Kaioshin talking about Beetles, but even that were part of set pieces (champa foreshadowing, why Goku isn't with Whis yet).
When I think of filler, it is stuff that basically has no impact on the story. Sure, none of these plot points are rocket science and could probably be skipped and people would "figure it out". But they aren't filler: they are part of the larger story, and it bridges the gap between BoG and FnF, answering some questions people had.
We actually discussed this yesterday in another thread extensively. I think that the most accepted (not official) definition of "filler" is whatever material isn't in/based on the original work (the manga, in the case of DB and DBZ). In this case, we're getting events which happen are shown in the manga but aren't shown in the TV Series (Champa's and Vados' appearances and interactions with a few characters), which is the exact opposite of the way DB and DBZ used to work when they were being released, with the anime episodes being constantly filled partially or entirely with filler material, and even entire arcs.
One of the acceptable, although potentially incomplete, inaccurate or incorrect, definitions of "canon" is whatever doesn't necessarily contradict or create/generate plot holes or timeline inconsistencies with the main line/sequence of events present in the original work, in which case, and just for example's sake, the entire Garlic Jr. arc between Freeza and the Jinzouningen, as well as Movie 9, could be considered canon.
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Pantalones wrote:
That's because "base form" isn't a term used in the actual series, it's only used by fans.
By base form it's become, throughout the years, universally accepted within the fandom that it refers to a Saiya-jin's normal, non-Super Saiya-jin stage (and, for that matter, without using Kaio-Ken or any other potential power-enhancing technique either). The term will need to be reconsidered now that Goku (and Vegeta, for that matter) will have the power and abilities of Super Saiya-jin God without physically transforming into anything, so it's really debatable whether we should continue to use "base form" to refer to Goku's and Vegeta's non-physically-Super Saiya-jin-transformed states in Freeza's arc within DBSuper or in Fukaktsu no F. In fact, the correct term to refer to that particular stage (incorporation of SSJG's abilities and power even without physically transforming into anything) is Saiya-jin beyond God.
Regardless of the way Vegeta will achieve Super Saiya-jin God himself, either through the ritual or through any other method, I see it as a logical pre-requisite to go through the sequence of transformations and power-ups seen in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, as in: Super Saiya-jin God, then Saiya-jin beyond God, and finally Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. If Vegeta doesn't achieve, at some point, the SSJG stage just like Goku did, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to be able to reach the Saiya-jin beyond God stage, let alone the SSJGSSJ transformation.
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Araki wrote:
- Kuririn's request to Goku was indeed related to his decision to leave retirement behind and become a fighter again, as i predicted. I guess that's also why he decides to get work as a cop (after the timeskip next episode, he's doing it already).
I guess he, along with the rest of the gang that was present throughout the entirety, or most, of DB and DBZ's arcs, wants to at least keep up with his training and, to some degree, maintain their martial arts pride, much in the same way Tenshinhan has ALWAYS done, and unlike Krillin and Yamcha for quite a while in the second half of DBZ, most notably the Majin Buu arc. It was cool to see Goku finally interact with Krillin again one-on-one, we haven't seen that for a while, now that I think of it, and it was nice idea to dedicate a few minutes of the episodes to have them spend some time with each other, being best friends and all. Another great move to take advantage of the opportunity the fact this is a TV series presents. If they're careful enough with their planning, there's room and time for everyone, just the right amounts, unlike the somewhat rushed and out-of-nowhere (although obviously approved) appearances of Tenshinhan, Krillin and even Muten Roshi in the Movies, especially Fukkatsu no F. I guess we should be happy with the way they're managing the episodes' time to give the respectful, proper screen time to each character and their respective interactions with the main guys.
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Sorry about posting my first immediate thoughts right after watching the episode live yesterday in the wrong thread, but there was no thread for this week's episode yet when I wrote and it was only created after I had to to leave, by the way.
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Kishido wrote:
I predict Goku will go with him as well.
Basing ourselves on the preview for next weekend's episode, it seems we'll mostly deal with Goku's version of what Vegeta went through in yesterday's episode to set off to Beerus' planet to train with Whis.
Kishido wrote:
Still do not know how Vegeta will reach god level...
He has to. In order for it to make any sense, Vegeta will need to undergo the exact same sequence Goku did/will do, as in, reaching Super Saiya-jin God first of all (either through the ritual or potentially some other method), then incorporating the stage's abilities and power into his base form (Saiya-jin beyond God) and then going even further and developing another stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
In order for Vegeta to be able to reach Saiya-jin beyond God, let alone Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, he HAS to, at some point, on-screen or off-screen, reach Super Saiya-jin God himself, which I can only assume he did at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the Movies' version of events. I was actually hoping to see that on-screen along with some other particular events hinted at in the Movies. We'll have to see the episodes as they come out.
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Araki wrote:
You keep saying that like those scenes won't ever be shown in the anime, which i can't make sense of, when of course they will, and in more detail.
I was already sure the reason the manga covered them earlier was because it would entirely skip RoF, and now that's even more clear, after the Kaioshins mention the magical disappearance of two planets. This sequence was a set up for them to take notice of Champa and Valdos' move, scenes that almost definitely will take place during RoF.
Yeah, I know, it has to do with the pacing and with the fact the manga skipped the retelling of Fukkastu no F altogether. The Champa + Vados actions and interactions with the Kaioshin, etc., WILL be shown in the series sooner or later exactly as they were present in the manga, just not at the same timing.
By the way, expanding a little bit on the whole "filler" discussion, although it's widely and universally accepted that it refers to whatever material isn't present in the original work that the anime is based on, it still doesn't necessarily mean it did/doesn't "happen". We shouldn't confuse "filler" and "canon". Just because they show something in an episode (whether to splatter the episode to make its time in a hasty manner or to deliberately show some well-conceived and thought event) which wasn't present at all, or even hinted at, referenced or mentioend in the manga, it doesn't mean we should "erase" it from existence. What we SHOULD and MUST erase from existence is the non-canon material which directly contradicts the one and only main sequence, timeline and storyline and generates all kinds of plot holes and time inconsistencies, and that includes most (indeed, almost all) of the DBZ Movies and, with the recent Movies, Specials and TV series they've thrown our way, GT.
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lucas1603: kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: serio vou sentir mta sdd de vc
lucas1603: e durante esse tempo
lucas1603: q a bandai morra
yusuke: oi
yusuke:
yusuke: adeus
lucas1603: adeus
lucas1603:
lucas1603: finalmente vai chegar sabado
lucas1603: oi magyunia
MaGyunia: HEY
lucas1603: expectativas pro ep?
MaGyunia: muito focado no Freeza
MaGyunia: as cenas dele no inferno, a resurreição e talvez alguns flashbacks
MaGyunia: ou seja, o equivalente aos primeiros 5 ou 10 minutos do filme
lucas1603: tomara q mostra o treinamento dele já q no filme n mostrou
MaGyunia: neste episodio ainda n
MaGyunia: é mt cedo, talvez no próximo ou daqui a dois
lucas1603: tbm acho
lucas1603: talvez a luta do goku ssjdssj vai durar uns 5 eps no minimo
MaGyunia: se a luta entre o Goku SSJG e o Beerus durou 4 episódios
MaGyunia: e tendo em conta q a duração dessa luta no filme do Beerus e a luta contra o Freeza no ultimo filme é mais ou menos a mesma
MaGyunia: é capaz de ser mais ou menos uns 4 ou 5 episódios
MaGyunia: e espero q o Vegeta tenha mais algum tempo pra rebentar com o Freeza depois de o Goku ficar incapacitado
MaGyunia: no manga nada disto existe, eles passam logo pro Champa e a Vados
MaGyunia: dantes havia muito filler em DBZ q n tava no manga, agora ha cenas que tao no manga e não tão nos episódios
MaGyunia: ou melhor, n tão agora mas vao tar depois
lucas1603: ficou meio q acontrario agora
lucas1603: só acho q o champa vai treinar o freeza
MaGyunia: só vendo, mas nao acho
MaGyunia: o Freeza é um vilão a sério, um psicopata genocida
MaGyunia: acho q o Champa n vai treinar um tipo desses
MaGyunia: nem a Vados
lucas1603: quem vc acha que vai tar no time do bills?
MaGyunia: eles introduziram pela primeira vez o Champa e a Vados no fim do ultimo episodio porque já era tempo
MaGyunia: mas acho q n vai haver ligaçao nenhuma entre o Freeza e o Champa
MaGyunia: Goku, Vegeta, Gohan tão certos
MaGyunia: depois é a questão
MaGyunia: o Majin Buu é mais forte q todos os outros depois desses mas ta dormindo
MaGyunia: se o Gotenks for fundido so preenche uma vaga, e a outra é pro Piccolo
MaGyunia: senao deve ser Goten e Trunks
MaGyunia: ou seja, todos os Saiya-jins
lucas1603: goku, vegeta, majin-boo, picollo e n° 18
MaGyunia: embora eu ache que o Piccolo é mais forte que o Goten e o Trunks separados
MaGyunia: e a #18 também
lucas1603: quem falou q o picolo é mais fraco q o goten e o trunks separados?
MaGyunia: até o Gelton
MaGyunia: pra mim o Goten e o Trunks são bastante mais fracos q o #18 e ainda mais que o Piccolo
lucas1603: pra mim tbm
lucas1603: os dois são dez vezes mais fortes q o goten e o trunks
MaGyunia: o Piccolo ficou tão forte como o #17 e o #18 na saga do Cell depois de se fundir com o Kami, mas depois treinou ainda mais e ficou mais forte
MaGyunia: o Goten e o Trunks são Super Saiya-jins normais, como o Goku, o Trunks ou o Vegeta quando o estado apareceu
MaGyunia: e o Piccolo é muito mais forte do que isso
lucas1603: e o goten e trunks nunca treinaram antes da saga boo
lucas1603: como podem ser mais fortes
lucas1603: do q o picolo?
MaGyunia: o Freeza a 100% é mais fraco que o Goku SSJ, o Goku SSJ, o Trunks SSJ e o Vegeta SSJ são mais fracos que o #17 e #18, e o Piccolo chegou ao nível deles qd se fundiu, e depois ainda ficou mais forte
MaGyunia: naquela altura em que o Piccolo se fundiu com o Kami tava muito acima do Goku, Vegeta e Trunks
MaGyunia: durante uns episódios foi o mais forte dos bons
MaGyunia: mas é evidente que ta mt longe do nivel de poder dos mais fortes da saga do Buu
MaGyunia: aliás o Piccolo nem luta na saga toda do Buu
MaGyunia: o Goku, o Vegeta, o Gohan, o Gotenks, o Vegitto e todas as versões do Buu tão noutro nível muito superior
lucas1603: quando ele fundiu com kami sama, o piccolo era mais que o cell na primeira forma
MaGyunia: e agora o Beerus, o Champa, o Whis, a Vados, o Freeza e o Goku SSJG e o Vegeta SSJGSSJ e o Goku SSJGSSJ tão num nível ainda acima disso tudo
MaGyunia: sim, antes de o Cell absorver aqueles milhões de humanos todos
MaGyunia: era equivalente ao #17 e ao #18, ligeiramente inferior ao #16
lucas1603: verdade
MaGyunia: mas depois todos os Saiya-jin ascenderam a outros patamares de transformação e ultrapassaram-no e aos cyborgs, e na saga do Cell o Goku e o Gohan tão perto dele na forma perefita
MaGyunia: mas depois na saga do Buu o Vegeta e o Goku superaram já muito esse nível, especialmente o Goku com o SSJ3, e depois o Gohan quando treinou com o Kaioshin e o Gotenks SSJ3
MaGyunia: mas antes de aparecer o Beerus e o Whis e estes filmes recentes e a série o Vegitto era o mais forte da série toda de DBZ
lucas1603: é mesmo
MaGyunia: e de repente o Freeza passa de um nível de poder inferior a um SSJ normal dos tempos de Namek pra um nível capaz de rivalizar com o Goku SSJGSSJ
MaGyunia: passou as sagas todas em 4 meses de treino
lucas1603: e agora o vegeta normal é mais ou menos o mesmo nivel q o goku normal
lucas1603: vou sair daqui a pouquinho eu volto
MaGyunia: sim, e eu acho q isso só faz sentido se o Vegeta tiver chegado a SSJG por algum método e incorporado as capacidades e poder do estado como o Goku fez
MaGyunia: aliás, para o Vegeta conseguir chegar a SSJGSSJ mais tarde só faz sentido se ele tiver atingido SSJG primeiro
MaGyunia: e acho q n mostraram mas atingiu, nao foi é através do ritual
MaGyunia: agora finalmente o Goku e o Vegeta tão iguais, tanto na forma base como em SSJGSSJ, q ainda n foi mostrado no Super
lucas1603: voltei
lucas1603: vc acha que vai ter o final do Z no super?
MaGyunia: e o Vegeta SSJ2 na saga do Buu era inferior a muita gente, a todas as versões do Buu, ao Gohan, ao Goku SSJ3, ao Gotenks, ao Vegitto
MaGyunia: sinceramente nao sei, mas espero que não
MaGyunia: nunca gostei daqueles três últimos episódios do Z com o Uub
lucas1603: eu gosto um pouco deles
MaGyunia: acho que o Super vai acabar com a saga do sexto universo e o torneio
MaGyunia: mas depois vai haver mais
MaGyunia: filmes e/ou série
lucas1603: só não gosto do uub
MaGyunia: e aí já pode ser depois dessa altura
lucas1603: eu acho q o super não vai ter mais q 100 eps
lucas1603: por causa do sucesso no japão
lucas1603: vai ter*
MaGyunia: foram 15 pra recontar o filme do Beerus, mais uns 15 pra recontar o do Freeza, lá para o 35 ou 40 deve começar a saga do 6º universo
MaGyunia: e essa deve ter pelo menos 20 episódios
MaGyunia: se n for para além disso duvido que chegue até aos 100
lucas1603: vai ter mto mais q 100
MaGyunia: pra isso a saga do 6º universo tem que ser imensa como as sagas do Z ou então tem q haver mais história depois dessa saga
lucas1603: e ainda vai ter a parte das super esferas do dragão do 6° universo
MaGyunia: o torneio, o Champa, a Vados e as Super Dragon Balls faz tudo parte da saga do 6º universo
lucas1603: concerteza vai ter um filme do 6° universo e do champa
MaGyunia: o que a gente escreve nesse chat é gravado nalgum sítio ?
lucas1603: não sei
lucas1603: se apertar f5 maioria do que agnt escreveu vai ter sumido
MaGyunia: eu sei, e às vezes limpam tudo, mas será que fica gravado nalgum sítio ?
MaGyunia: ou é apagado para sempre ?
lucas1603: acho que é apagado pra sempre
MaGyunia: vou fazer a minha lista de poderes
MaGyunia: a partir da saga do Cell
MaGyunia: saga do Cell: 1- Gohan SSJ2, 2- Cell perfeito da explosão, 3- Cell perfeito usando todo o poder, 4- Cell perfeito, 5- Goku SSJ Full Power, 6- Gohan SSJ Full Power, 7- Trunks SSJ Dai San Dankai, 8- Vegeta SSJ Dai Ni Dankai, 9- Piccolo, 10- Cell semi-perfeito, 11- Cell imperfeito depois de absorber milhões de seres humanos, 12- #16, 13- Piccolo, 14- #17, 15- #18, 16- Cell imperfeito, 17- Vegeta SSJ, 18- Goku SSJ, 19- Trunks...
lucas1603: qual é mais forte bojack ou cell?
MaGyunia: saga do Buu: 1- Super Vegitto, 2- Vegitto, 3- Super Buu com Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks e Goten absorvidos, 4- Super Buu com Gotenks SSJ3 e Piccolo absorvidos, 5- Gohan, 6- Super Buu com Piccolo, Trunks e Goten absorvidos, 7- Super Buu, 8- Kid Buu, 9- Goku SSJ3, 10- Gotenks SSJ3, 11- Majin Buu, 12- Goku SSJ2, 13- Vegeta SSJ2, 14- Gohan SSJ2, 15- Dabla
MaGyunia: saga do Beerus: 1- Whis, 2- Beerus, 3- Goku SSJG, 3- Goku com poder de todos os outros SSJ, 4- Vegeta SSJ2 irritado, 5- Goku SSJ3, 6- Gohan, 7- Gotenks, 8- Majin Buu, 9- Goku SSJ2, 10- Vegeta SSJ2, 11- Piccolo, 12- #18
MaGyunia: saga do Freeza: 1- Whis, 2- Vados, 3- Beerus, 4- Champa, 5- Golden Freeza, 6- SSJGSSJ Goku, 7- SSJGSSJ Vegeta, 8- Goku normal com poderes SSJG, 9- Vegeta normal com poderes SSJG, 10- Gohan, 11- Piccolo
MaGyunia: acho que o Cell é superior na forma perfeita, mesmo sem usar todo o poder
MaGyunia: muito menos depois da explosão
lucas1603: o filme do bojack é um dos unicos que realmente tão na historia
MaGyunia: ou seja, a lista inteira seria: 1- Whis, 2- Vados, 3- Beerus, 4- Champa, 5- Golden Freeza, 6- SSJGSSJ Goku, 7- SSJGSSJ Vegeta, 8- Goku normal com poderes SSJG, 9- Vegeta normal com poderes SSJG, 10- Goku SSJG, 11- Goku com poder de todos os outros SSJ, 12- Super Vegitto, 13- Vegitto, 14- Super Buu com Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks e Goten absorvidos, 15- Super Buu com Gotenks SSJ3 e Piccolo absorvidos, 16- Vegeta SSJ2 irritado, ...
MaGyunia: a mensagem ficou a meio lol
MaGyunia: sim, o filme do Bojack é o único que não contradiz nada na série
MaGyunia: e acontece mesmo depois do Cell ser morto e antes de o Goku ir pro planeta do maior dos Kaious com o Kaiou
MaGyunia: aliás, o Bojack livra-se da magia dos Kaious precisamente porque o Kaiou do norte morreu quando o Cell explodiu, foi logo
lucas1603: acho que o ataque do dragão tbm não contradiz nada na serie
MaGyunia: depende de quando acontece
MaGyunia: como usam as Dragon Balls no filme, isso pode contradizer a utilização das bolas para fazer toda a gente esquecer do Majin Buu
MaGyunia: mas tirando isso também pode ter acontecido pouco depois da derrota do Kid Buu
lucas1603: nele o majin boo não aparece, pode ser naquele tempo que o majin boo tava trancado
MaGyunia: e o primeiro filme do Garlic Jr. também só não pode acontecer mesmo antes do Raditz aparecer porque o Krillin já conhece o Gohan no filme, enquanto na série fica surpreendido por saber que o Goku tem um filme, tirando isso podia ter acontecido pouco antes de o Raditz chegar
lucas1603: o resgate de raditz deve ter acontecido alguns dias antes do raditz chegar
lucas1603: gohan*
lucas1603: em que cidade vc mora em portugal?
lucas1603: falta uma hora pra live começar
MaGyunia: mas o Gelton ainda demora a entrar nao é ?
MaGyunia: eu posso sempre teorizar que o Krillin durante o filme do Garlic Jr. n sabia quem o Gohan era
MaGyunia: nada no filme indica que ele sabia quem era aquela criança
lucas1603: é mesmo
MaGyunia: por isso pode fazer sentido que tenha ficado surpreendido por saber q era o filho do Goku na ilha no início do Z
MaGyunia: eu moro no norte de portugal
lucas1603: no filme ele nem perguntou de quem o gohan era filho
MaGyunia: muito perto de espanha
MaGyunia: é isso
MaGyunia: mas portugal é minúsculo
MaGyunia: os países europeus sao muito poderosos mas geograficamente muito pequenos comparados com o brasil, por exemplo
MaGyunia: mas portugal nem é poderoso, portugal é dos paises mais pobres da europa, é uma vergonha
lucas1603: um tanto de país da europa cabe aqui no brasil
lucas1603: a frança é mais ou menos do tamanho do estado q eu moro
MaGyunia: olha o Gelton
lucas1603: começou
lucas1603: que que é isso?
MaGyunia: Gelton, quando puder responde a uma pergunta importante que tenho que te fazer antes de limpar o chat, se faz favor
lucas1603: que peixe é esse que eles tão vendendo?
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: esse é dos melhores lives da internet pra ver Super certo ?
MaGyunia: de toda a internet
lucas1603: certo
lucas1603: a pior live da internet pra ver super é a da kami sama explorer
MaGyunia: não conheço
MaGyunia: é brasileira ?
lucas1603: sim
MaGyunia: mas tem que haver lives de todos os países
MaGyunia: Dragonball é famoso em todo o mundo
lucas1603: é um site só de dragon ball
MaGyunia: eu uso o Kanzenshuu
lucas1603: oque é isso?
MaGyunia: supostamente a melhor página sobre Dragonball que existe
MaGyunia: pra informação, e depois tem um fórum onde eu participei mas deixei de participar
MaGyunia: mas é tudo em inglês
lucas1603: olha os japoneses comendo kkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: 70% do q eles mostram na tv é comida
MaGyunia: é o que o Whis come
lucas1603: o whis ta escondido embaixo daquela mesa que ta as comidas
lucas1603: qual é a sug
lucas1603: sua saga preferida de dbw
lucas1603: ?
MaGyunia: de todo o Dragonball ?
lucas1603: sim
MaGyunia: é mt difícil dizer, mas se tivesse mesmo q escolher acho que a do Freeza é a melhor
MaGyunia: sobretudo se incluir a parte dos Saiya-jins
MaGyunia: é muito sério e violento
lucas1603: pra mim é a do cell
MaGyunia: mas a saga do Cell também é fantástica
MaGyunia: a do Buu já tem alguns falhanços
MaGyunia: e de DB adoro as duas últimasd
lucas1603: como assim?
MaGyunia: do Piccolo Daimao e do Piccolo
MaGyunia: eu tenho o símbolo do Piccolo Daimao tatuado no corpo, só pra ver
lucas1603: não das falhanças que eu perguntei
MaGyunia: e Vegeta no braço em japonês
MaGyunia: tava dizendo que a saga do Buu já é mais fraca que as anteriores
MaGyunia: já tem algumas partes cómicas desnecessárias
lucas1603: ata
MaGyunia: não é tão sério e violento
lucas1603: mais a do boo tbm é legal
MaGyunia: tem muita coisa muito boa
MaGyunia: o SSJ3, Majin Vegeta, Dabla, a luta do Goku com o Kid Buu, a fusão, o Vegitto, o Gohan
MaGyunia: mas nos Saiya-jin, no Freeza e no Cell é sempre violento, é fantástico
MaGyunia: é mais realista, nao sei
MaGyunia: é difícil explicar
MaGyunia: e eles viram que o #17 e o #18 eram demasiado porreiros pra serem vilões a sério, e aí inventaram o Cell
MaGyunia: e também viram que o Majin Buu gordo nao era levado a sério como vilão principal, daí terem inventado as outras versões com um corpo mais decente
lucas1603: vc acha q existiu a saga boo no futuro de trunks?
MaGyunia: não
MaGyunia: o Babidi só tentou reunir a energia pra ressuscitar o Majin Buu porque viu que havia na terra gente com um nível de poder elevadíssimo
MaGyunia: como toda a gente morreu antes de atingir sequer perto desse nível de poder no futuro do Trunks, acho que não existiu
MaGyunia: mas a bola onde o Buu tá enfiado continua lá no centro da terra na mesma, claro
MaGyunia: mas nunca mais ninguém vai mexer nesse futuro
MaGyunia: nem no Bardock nem no Vegitto nem muito menos em vilões que nem são canon como o Brolly
MaGyunia: nem no Tarble
MaGyunia: eu adorava ver o Goku a reagir ao Bardock
MaGyunia: e gostava de ver o Raditz e o Vegitto de novo, ou até o Gogeta que nunca existiu, mas não vai acontecer
MaGyunia: eles tão focando no Whis, Beerus, Vados, Champa, Goku e Vegeta
lucas1603: eu gostaria de ver o nappa de novo
MaGyunia: eu prefiro o Raditz
lucas1603: o nappa é mto engraçado
MaGyunia: e dos filmes gosto muito do Turles
MaGyunia: dos filmes gosto do Turles, Cooler, Brolly e Janenba
lucas1603: gosto mto do primeiro filme do broly
MaGyunia: eu lembro ser criança e chorar porque ninguém todos juntos conseguia derrotar o Brolly
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: ele n é o mais forte de sempre, longe disso
MaGyunia: mas é o mais violento
MaGyunia: é um psicopata
lucas1603: verdade
lucas1603: " KAKAROTOOOO "
MaGyunia: se ele existisse na verdade teria sido ele mais tarde ou mais cedo que iria vingar os Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: matando o Freeza
MaGyunia: mas ia destruir o Universo todo
MaGyunia: ele é doente mental
MaGyunia: no primeiro filme, o 8, ainda fala
MaGyunia: nos outros já só diz KAKAROTTO
lucas1603: ele é o demonio em saiajin
MaGyunia: ele é tão forte quando nasceu como o Bardock adulto
MaGyunia: 10.000
MaGyunia: é quase tão forte em criança como o Vegeta quando veio à Terra a primeira vez
lucas1603: 10.000 de poder de luta é o que o gohan tinha no filme do turles
MaGyunia: é o verdadeiro lendário Super Saiya-jin que aparece a cada 1.000 anos segundo a lenda
MaGyunia: mas esse filme só podia ter acontecido nos 10 dias que o Cell dá antes dos Cell Games
lucas1603: é mesmo
MaGyunia: o Gohan já é um Super Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: e ele só vira SSJ na sala de treino especial
MaGyunia: em teoria pode ter acontecido, mas é demasiado forçado
lucas1603: o terceiro já não poderia ter acontecido de jeito nenhum
MaGyunia: em teoria quase todos os filmes podem ter acontecido, mas é quase impossível
MaGyunia: são sempre cenários hipotéticos
MaGyunia: o terceiro só se o Goku tivesse derrotado o Nappa e o Vegeta antes de eles matarem o Yamcha, o Tenshinhan, o Chaozu e o Piccolo
MaGyunia: e se existisse o Turles, claro
MaGyunia: já tem o Kaio Ken, toda a gente tá viva e portanto não há necessidade de ir a Namek
lucas1603: cara não sei se vc percebeu mais no super ainda não foi mostrado o templo sagrado, será que censuraram o sr. popo?
MaGyunia: acho que não é por isso
MaGyunia: o Karin e o Popo e o Yajirobe perderam todos muito protagonismo
MaGyunia: ao ponto de já nem aparecer
lucas1603: eu adoro o sr. popo
MaGyunia: nos EUA tiraram os lábios do Popo
MaGyunia: porque uma negra disse que era racista
lucas1603: ele sempre se refere na terceira pessoa
MaGyunia: e a versão americana é muito menos violenta, é pra criança
lucas1603: a live bugou
MaGyunia: sim
MaGyunia: na versão japonesa ele só diz parte da frase
MaGyunia: na americana diz tudo certo
MaGyunia: senao era considerado como sendo burro pela comunidade negra
MaGyunia: os EUA censuram tudo e alteram tudo
MaGyunia: até as músicas originais de fundo alteraram
MaGyunia: e isso era fundamental pra DBZ
lucas1603: o sr. popo na versão americana do kai é azul
MaGyunia: sempre odiei a versão americana de DBZ
lucas1603: nunca vi a versão americana de dbz
MaGyunia: o diálogo tá todo trocado
MaGyunia: adaptado à audiência americana
MaGyunia: como um cartoon tá vendo ?
MaGyunia: as musicas sao diferentes
lucas1603: só a brasileira e a portuguesa
MaGyunia: eu vi a galega quando era criança
MaGyunia: no início dos anos 90
MaGyunia: galega = espanhola
MaGyunia: só chegou a portugal muito depois
MaGyunia: depois vi a italiana, francesa e partes da alemã
MaGyunia: mas depois fiquei com a japonesa pra sempre
lucas1603: sempre fiquei com a brasileira
MaGyunia: mas ha muitos anos era muito dificil ter acesso à versão japonesa
MaGyunia: só depois de os DVDs americanos serem todos lançados com o dual audio americano e japones é q foi possivel ter DB e DBZ todo em japonês
MaGyunia: mas eu já tinha DVDs comprados
MaGyunia: eu ja quase nao preciso de legendas pra perceber tudo num episódio novo em japonês
MaGyunia: ver todos os episódios todos os dias durante anos faz isso
MaGyunia: japones falado é bastante fácil
MaGyunia: e depois têm muitas palavras importadas do inglês pronunciadas à japonesa
MaGyunia: imensas
lucas1603: ai em portugal passa dragon ball em algum canal de tv?
MaGyunia: pawaa, speedo, doragon, boru, suupa, goddo, e mais umas 10.000
MaGyunia: passa sempre
MaGyunia: tá sempre passando
MaGyunia: porque foi um sucesso tremendo
MaGyunia: mas nao passa a horas decentes e passa num canal de cabo
MaGyunia: mas tá sempre repetindo DB e DBZ
MaGyunia: e tb já passaram Kai em japonês com legendas em portugues 3 vezes
lucas1603: aqui passa db em um canal a cabo e dbkai em um canal aberto
MaGyunia: no final dos anos 90 em portugal a gente na universidade faltava pra fazer a fusão e ver os episódios
MaGyunia: mas eu nessa altura já tinha visto e revisto tudo na espanhola
lucas1603: na boa, a pior saga de dbz é a do garlic jr
MaGyunia: essa foi pra ganhar tempo
MaGyunia: pro Toriyama ter tempo de fazer o manga da próxima saga
lucas1603: tipo o ep do mr. satan ssj no super
MaGyunia: o mais ridículo é que aparecem imagens do filme
MaGyunia: como se o filme tivesse acontecido mesmo
MaGyunia: o Garlic Jr. se lembrando do Gohan
MaGyunia: e querendo vingança do Goku
lucas1603: verdade
MaGyunia: e o nível de poder do Piccolo devia ser suficiente pra acabar com todos eles facilmente
MaGyunia: há uma diferença gigantesca entre os níveis de poder antes e depois da saga de Namek
MaGyunia: o Vegeta chegou lá com 24.000
MaGyunia: ao longo da saga vai tudo aumentando, o Freeza tem 530.000 na versão mais fraca, lá no fim chega aos 120.000.000
MaGyunia: segundo as informações oficiais
MaGyunia: é a única saga passada fora da terra, é onde os poderes aumentam mais, é a mais violenta e séria, etc.
MaGyunia: e tem o vilão mais carismático
MaGyunia: tá sempre voltando, e agora volta a sério e em grande
MaGyunia: mas não é o meu favorito, eu prefiro o Cell
lucas1603: quando eu vi "o resgate de gohan" pela primeira vez, quando apareceu o garlic jr. eu pensei que ele era o pilaf
MaGyunia: o Goku n quer saber da família pra nada, ajuda a matar o próprio irmão, n se preocupa em ressuscitá-lo, abandona toda a gente pra treinar, n quer saber do pai pra nada, etc.
lucas1603: eles se parecem
MaGyunia: é típico dos Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: sim, são pequenos e azuis
lucas1603: daqui a pouco vai começar o programa dos cantores
MaGyunia: felizmente no Japão ainda n mudaram a hora pro horário de verão
MaGyunia: assim o episódio dá às 00h00 em Portugal e não às 01h00 como dantes
lucas1603: vc já foi um guest aqui?
MaGyunia: antes de me registrar sim
MaGyunia: depois decidi falar e me registrar
MaGyunia: porque deixei o forum do Kanzenshuu
MaGyunia: e quero falar com alguém de Dragonball
MaGyunia: enquanto espero
MaGyunia: eu acho que fui o único em Portugal que viu o primeiro episódio de Super enquanto tava dando no Japão
MaGyunia: pra mim é muito importante ver ao mesmo tempo que tá dando lá
lucas1603: eu tbm acho
MaGyunia: os meus personagens favoritos são Vegeta, Piccolo, Piccolo Daimao, Tenshinhan, Cell, Dabla, Turles, Bardock
MaGyunia: Vegitto também
lucas1603: os meus são goten, vegeta, majin boo, goku, oolong e tenshinhan
MaGyunia: Oolong ? porquê ?
lucas1603: cell tbm
lucas1603: ele é engraçado
MaGyunia: é um porco e nem lutar sabe
MaGyunia: Majin Buu qual deles ?
MaGyunia: o gordo ?
lucas1603: não o boo com o gohan absorvidp
lucas1603: absorvido
MaGyunia: ah
MaGyunia: tb gosto, mas prefiro o Kid Buu
MaGyunia: é outro doente mental
MaGyunia: e pode acrescentar o Beerus tbm
lucas1603: renascimento de freeza saiu dublado em portugal?
MaGyunia: aos meus favoritos
MaGyunia: ainda nao
MaGyunia: eu n quero ver dublado
MaGyunia: nem em portugues nem em americano nem em lingua nenhuma
MaGyunia: eu so vejo japones
lucas1603: vc gosta da dublagem portuguesa?
MaGyunia: nao, é uma vergonha
MaGyunia: passam a vida brincando
MaGyunia: nao levam a sério, é ridículo
MaGyunia: as vozes são péssimas, fazem confusão com as raças e as transformações, etc.
MaGyunia: porque é tradução directa da versão francesa
MaGyunia: por exemplo, em portugal não existe o termo Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: chamam-lhes "guerreiros do espaço"
lucas1603: " calma videl calma videl calma videl " (dublagem portuguesa )
MaGyunia: um Super Saiya-jin é um "super guerreiro"
lucas1603: nossa
MaGyunia: sim tipo isso
MaGyunia: mas há pior
lucas1603: que horror
MaGyunia: dava num canal e faziam publicidade a outros programas de sucesso desse canal
MaGyunia: as personagens
MaGyunia: era ridículo
MaGyunia: os nomes das técnicas também tão todos trocados por causa da versão francesa
MaGyunia: muitos nem têm nome
lucas1603: tipo?
MaGyunia: Final Flash não tem nome
MaGyunia: Makankosappo n tem nome
MaGyunia: Masenko n tem nome
MaGyunia: Kamehameha tem prai 5 nomes diferentes
MaGyunia: o Mr. Satan é o Hércules
MaGyunia: mas o Piccolo é o Satã
MaGyunia: porque vem do francês
MaGyunia: Satan Petit Coeur
MaGyunia: quer dizer pequeno coração
MaGyunia: e em portugues puseram "coraçãozinho de satã"
MaGyunia: não existe o nome "Piccolo" em portugues
MaGyunia: é ridiculo
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: mas isso dos Saiya-jin causa imensa confusão
MaGyunia: quem nao é mesmo fã fica confuso
MaGyunia: é importante e fundamental perceber que Saiya-jin é uma raça de extraterrestres como qq outra q aparece nos filmes
MaGyunia: na versão portuguesa e francesa isso n fica bem esclarecido
MaGyunia: portanto ha gente menos informada que acha q qq um pode se transformar em SSJ
MaGyunia: porque n sabe o que é nem um Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: que é do mais básico que há
MaGyunia: e as vozes mudam várias vezes durante a série
MaGyunia: o Vegeta tem 3 vozes diferentes
lucas1603: então ai o broly é tipo " lendario super guerreiro do espaço " ?
MaGyunia: super guerreiro lendário
MaGyunia: eles chamam super guerreiro a um Super Saiya-jin
MaGyunia: Saiya-jin = guerreiro do espaço
lucas1603: ah
MaGyunia: Super Saiya-jin = super guerreiro
MaGyunia: Super Saiya-jin 2 = nem tem nome kkk
lucas1603: kkkkkk
MaGyunia: Super Saiya-jin 3 = mega guerreiro
lucas1603: kkkkkkkk
lucas1603: e ssj 4?
MaGyunia: super guerreiro nível 4
lucas1603: ssj deus
MaGyunia: n existe ainda
lucas1603: ssjdssj
MaGyunia: ainda n ha dublagem da batalha dos deuses em portugues
MaGyunia: muito menos do filme deste ano do Freeza
MaGyunia: se um dia houver devem chamar deus super guerreiro
MaGyunia: e ao SSJGSSJ se calhar chamam super guerreiro azul ou qualquer coisa ridícula como isso
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: o Nappa, o Zarbon, o Dodoria e toda a Ginyu Tokusentai n tem nome tb
lucas1603: guerreiro azul super deus
MaGyunia: nunca dizem o nome deles
MaGyunia: à Ginyu Tokusentai chamam simplesmente "forças especiais"
MaGyunia: eu vou sempre pelo japonês
MaGyunia: nem quero ouvir dublagens
lucas1603: ai o apresentador do torneio de artes marcias tem nome?
MaGyunia: nao
lucas1603: aqui tbm não
MaGyunia: mas a versão francesa tinha uma cena boa
MaGyunia: que era o facto de manter os gritos em japones
MaGyunia: na versao original
MaGyunia: sempre que nao havia dialogo
MaGyunia: o que eu queria era ouvir japones
MaGyunia: os gritos
lucas1603: acho q o nome dele é " apresentador do torneio de artes marcias "
MaGyunia: por isso via a versao francesa só por isso
MaGyunia: mas isso n é um nome
MaGyunia: é uma descrição
lucas1603: eu sei eu to brincando
MaGyunia: pra mim é tudo japon
MaGyunia: japonês
MaGyunia: Pikkoro
MaGyunia: Bejiita
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin
lucas1603: supa saiajin gotor
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Goddo
MaGyunia: Hakaishin Birusu
MaGyunia: Burori
lucas1603: doragon boru supa
MaGyunia: Bideru
MaGyunia: Pikkoro Daimao
MaGyunia: Seru
MaGyunia: Furiza
MaGyunia: Buruma
MaGyunia: Fainaru Furash
MaGyunia: Makankosappo
MaGyunia: Bigu Ban Attakku
MaGyunia: Gyarikku Hou
MaGyunia: Bakurikimaha
MaGyunia: Kienzan
MaGyunia: Kikoho
MaGyunia: e aqueles níveis de SSJ entre o normal e o 2
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Furu Pawaa
MaGyunia: e depois Suupa Saiya-jin Tsu
MaGyunia: Suupa Saiya-jin Thuri
lucas1603: no japão deve ser mto ruim acordar de manhã ouvindo essa voz
MaGyunia: Uisu
MaGyunia: n tou ouvindo
MaGyunia: o live
MaGyunia: é domingo lá
MaGyunia: n devem tar acordados
lucas1603: já era pra tar cheio aqui essa hora
MaGyunia: q idade voce tem ?
lucas1603: 15
lucas1603: e vc ?
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: mais do dobro
MaGyunia: 32
lucas1603:
zeker: oio
zeker: oi povo
lucas1603: oi
MaGyunia: ossu
MaGyunia: kon'nichiwa
MaGyunia: genki desu ka ?
MaGyunia: oratachi wa doragon boru suupa mateiru zou
lucas1603: ?????
MaGyunia: por exemplo na versão portuguesa nao existe Kakarotto
MaGyunia: o Vegeta chama sempre Songoku ao Goku
MaGyunia: outro falho básico
MaGyunia: e então quando se fundem no Vegitto
zeker: jogando dbz btk3 aqui enquanto n começa
MaGyunia: Vegeta + Kakarotto = Vegetto
MaGyunia: em portugues chamam-lhe Vegeku
MaGyunia: Vegeta + Goku
MaGyunia: kkk
lucas1603: kkkk
MaGyunia: e o Gotenks é o Gotrunks
MaGyunia: nao custava nada deixar estar Gotenks
MaGyunia: fundir Goten com Trunks
MaGyunia: Gotenks é perfeito
MaGyunia: mas nao
MaGyunia: preferiram ser sem imaginação e fundiram tudo
zeker: já viram a fusão Gokule do dbz budokai 2 :v
zeker: ?
lucas1603: não
lucas1603: é com quem?
zeker: Goku e Hercule
zeker: que é o Mister Satana
zeker: Satan*
lucas1603: ah
MaGyunia: na versão americana é Hercule
MaGyunia: e em portugues tb é Hércules
zeker: sim
MaGyunia: pra evitar referencias religiosas
MaGyunia: na america ate mudaram o q diz nas t-shirts dos Oni
MaGyunia: dizia Hell
MaGyunia: Inferno
MaGyunia: mudaram pra Hfil
MaGyunia: rebentaram com a série toda por todos os lados
lucas1603: satan siginifica papai noel em japones
MaGyunia: seriedade, música de fundo, nomes, etc.
MaGyunia: Satan em Portugal é satanás
MaGyunia: o símbolo do Piccolo Daimao quer dizer "ma"
MaGyunia: demónio
MaGyunia: e eu ando com isso tatuado no peito
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: tudo o que é demoníaco tem "ma" algures
MaGyunia: Ma Junior
lucas1603: acho que na versão finlandesa também é hercules, porque papai noel lá é satana
MaGyunia: DaiMAo
lucas1603: satanas*
MaGyunia: Makyo
MaGyunia: Makaioshin
MaGyunia: Makaiou Dabura
MaGyunia: Makankosappo
MaGyunia: Masenko
MaGyunia: Makosen
MaGyunia: como se chama o Muten Roshi no Brasil ?
MaGyunia: e o Mutaito ?
lucas1603: mestre kame
zeker: Mestre Kame
MaGyunia: pois porque o nome dele é Muten Roshi mas tem o título Kame-sennin em japones
MaGyunia: o Goku chama-lhe sempre assim
MaGyunia: mestre da tartaruga literalmente
lucas1603: nossa mestre da tartaruga kkkkkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: o que treina o Tenshinhan e o Chaozu é o Tsuru-sennin
MaGyunia: tsuru = corvo
MaGyunia: outro que nao tem nome em portugues é o Yajirobe
MaGyunia: o Kaiou-sama é o Kaíbe
MaGyunia: e o Kaio Ken é "o Ataque de Kaíbe"
lucas1603: aqui é sr. kaio
lucas1603: o kaiou sama
MaGyunia: Big Bang Attack tem nome mas mais valia nao ter
MaGyunia: qd o Vegeta lança sobre o #19
MaGyunia: ele diz "vais sentir o poder do ataque do super big bang !"
MaGyunia: kkk
MaGyunia: qd lança o Final Flash contra o Cell só grita "atenç
MaGyunia: "atenção!"
MaGyunia: Genkidama é força universal
MaGyunia: Kikoho é força absoluta
lucas1603: perai que eu já volto
zeker: que hr começa?
MaGyunia: ta zuando ?
zeker: to
MaGyunia: tem montes de gente que vem perguntando a que horas começa a sério
zeker: :v
MaGyunia: nao interessa que horas sao em q país for, começa às 9 no japão, qd der 9 ali no canto superior esquerdo do live começa
MaGyunia: a responder só assim
MaGyunia: ou entao insultando
zeker: :v
lucas1603: voltei
lucas1603: o q aconteceu?
MaGyunia: o Brolly partiu isto tudo
lucas1603: zeker se no seu estado tem horario de verão começa 22:00
lucas1603: vcs gostam de algum anime alem de db?
MaGyunia: anime so vejo Dragonball
MaGyunia: e aquele pedaço que aparece no primeiro filme do Kill Bill kkk
lucas1603: naruto, one piece, cavaleiros do zodiaco e yu gi oh
MaGyunia: tsubasa
lucas1603: o gelton podia aparecer neh
MaGyunia: o Japão cometeu muitas atrocidades na II guerra mundial
MaGyunia: foi tudo influência do Piccolo Daimao
MaGyunia: libertou os criminosos todos
MaGyunia: se não fosse o palhaço do Pilaf não havia Piccolo
lucas1603: pilaf = lixo
lucas1603: já era pra ta cheio aqui
luan20: kkkkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: do que que c ta rindo?
luan20: Do naruto one piece
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
inlove)
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
luan20: Ira começa que horas DBS ?
lucas1603: 22:00 se tem horario de verão no seu estado
lucas1603: se não tem é as 21:00
luan20: Aqui sera as 21:00 sou de Salvador
lucas1603: aqui vai começar as 22:00
lucas1603: sou de belo horizonte
luan20: Não sei pq sou apaixonado por chinesas e japonesas kkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: cada pessoa tem seu gosto ué kkkkkk
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603: japonez é td igual
lucas1603: olha só
luan20: vdd kkkkkkkk
lucas1603: cara igual olho igual boca igual
lucas1603: bunda igual
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkk
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
rsrssr
viciadoemdb: chegay meu povo
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603: oiii
lucas1603: o que fazem?
luan20: Assistindo filme de terror Jason X
lucas1603: ouvindo musica
luan20:
image: https://cdn.vaughnsoft.com/img/clear.png
lucas1603: bem que o gelton podia aparecer logo
luan20: sim
lucas1603: vc perdeu, a hora que a live bugou
luan20: Sim
luan20: kkk
lucas1603: abriu um tanto de janela com a live ai deu um tanto de som estranho
luan20: lol
zeker: ...
lucas1603: e a live começou com o gelton discutindo com duas pessoas
luan20: hum
rvs_20: eai povo
lucas1603: eai
MaGyunia: kon'nichiwa
luan20: eai
MaGyunia: hoje vai ter flashback do Freeza destruindo o Planeta Vegeta de novo
rvs_20: cade o gelton
Mod
vinicius: eae clã
MaGyunia: ou seja, ha uma hipotese mínima de o Bardock realmente aparecer em Super uns segundos
lucas1603: rvs não sei
lucas1603: eai vinicuus
luan20: hum
lucas1603: q isso?
luan20: O que ?
lucas1603: isso q ta mostrando
luan20: sobre o atentado a frança
lucas1603: ah
luan20: mato 129 pessoas ontem
luan20: terrorista mato 129 pessoas ontem
lucas1603: eu vi
luan20: Acho que agora a frança vai para de receber refugiado
lucas1603: tbm acho
MaGyunia: n tem só a ver com refugiados
MaGyunia: a frança
MaGyunia: é o pais europeu mais activo na guerra contra o estado islâmico
MaGyunia: e tem montanhas de muçulmanos no país
luan20: Sim mais terrorista entro se passando por refugiados
MaGyunia: muitos deles fundamentalistas e terroristas com ligações ao estado islâmico
MaGyunia: mas este é o pior atentado terrorista desde o 11 de setembro
MaGyunia: foi em 4 sítios ao mesmo tempo
MaGyunia: num só pavilhão mataram todos os 100 reféns
luan20: Sim Sim
thiagoanimefnd07: Deus tem misericórdia desse povo
MaGyunia: deus não existe
lucas1603: sim, eu sei mais o estado islamico e os refugiados são mulçumanos
thiagoanimefnd07: pra vc
thiagoanimefnd07: pra mim ele existe sim
MaGyunia: sim mas nem todo o muçulmano é terrorista
MaGyunia: alguns terroristas vieram com os refugiados
luan20: Verdade MaGyunia
MaGyunia: mas os refugiados ainda nem sequer chegaram aos países de destino na europa
lucas1603: tem uns q chegaram
MaGyunia: a frança e outros países da europa têm terroristas e fundamentalistas infiltrados até da própria nacionalidade há muito tempo
thiagoanimefnd07: toda a paris de luto cara isso foi muito angustiante
MaGyunia: isso vai continuar
MaGyunia: o problema do médio oriente nunca se vai resolver
thiagoanimefnd07: Deus queira que não
MaGyunia: se deus existe e é bom pq permite essas barbaridades ?
MaGyunia: não é essa a razão pra eu nao acreditar, atenção
MaGyunia: tem a ver com lógica
MaGyunia: mas já agora pergunto
thiagoanimefnd07: as pessoas as vezes perecem por não o buscarem
thiagoanimefnd07: a ele
guigabrdf: vcs nem sbaem oq passa na cabeça de deus
MaGyunia: ele tem que ser buscado ? não pode aparecer e facilitar ?
thiagoanimefnd07: ele facilitou de mais agente que quis se separar com o pecado
luan20: Deus deu O livre-arbítrio o que acontece aqui ele não vai fazer nada
lucas1603: eles fazem esses atentados nos paises da europa pq em 2003, os paises europeus ajudarm os eua a invadir o iraque
MaGyunia: o programa dos convidados começou mais cedo hoje
MaGyunia: lucas sim e se reparar
MaGyunia: em 2001 foi EUA
MaGyunia: 2004 espanha
MaGyunia: 2005 inglaterra
MaGyunia: os 3 países que se reuniram em portugal pra decidir atacar o iraque
MaGyunia: o europeu vai ser em frança
MaGyunia: de futebol
thiagoanimefnd07: temos que dar o maior apoio as pessoas de lá agora
MaGyunia: que apoio ?
MaGyunia: espiritual ?
thiagoanimefnd07: todo possivel
MaGyunia: o apoio era rebentar com esses psicopatas religiosos do islão
MaGyunia: todos, 100%
thiagoanimefnd07: não vou debater religião cada um crer no que quer a questão é saber respeitar a crença do outro
guigabrdf: apoio kkkkkk
MaGyunia: praticamente todas as guerras são por causa da religião
weto: oi
MaGyunia: de repente a Europa tá ficando islamificada
MaGyunia: na Alemanha é só turcos
MaGyunia: Inglaterra é só indianos
MaGyunia: França ui
lucas1603: e ainda mataram saddam sendo que lá nem fabricava bomba nuclear, isso q acabei de falar é a causa desse atentado
luan20: As guerras não são por causa das religião e sim pelo os recursos dos paises
MaGyunia: o estado islâmico e os problemas q israel tem com os muçulmanos ha decadas sao por causa de religião
MaGyunia: andam ha milhares de anos nisso
thiagoanimefnd07: vamos respeitar o pensamento dos outros pfv
lucas1603: esse programa geralmente começa as 8
MaGyunia: é evidente que depois cresce a xenofobia
MaGyunia: é verdade lucas eu disse isso
lucas1603: começou mais cedo hoje
MaGyunia: hoje começou mais cedo
MaGyunia: começou às 7:39
MaGyunia: mas duvido que Super comece antes das 9:00
MaGyunia: tao a fazer um especial por causa da cena da frança
lucas1603: já pararam pra pensar q esse programa se extenda por causa desse atentado e n tem dbs
thiagoanimefnd07: alguém sabe me dizer o motivo do ataque qual o objetivo ?
weto: Que hora começa?
weto: Não vai ter por causa do atentado?
lucas1603: vai
thiagoanimefnd07: foi vingança pelo aliamento da frança em alguuma guerra ???? maGyunia qual o motivo do ataque ?
MaGyunia: n ha uma so causa especifica
MaGyunia: o mundo ocidental anda em guerra no médio oriente ha mais de uma década
thiagoanimefnd07: a ta vlw
MaGyunia: primeiro afeganistão, depois iraque, agora síria
MaGyunia: agora surgiu o estado islâmico
MaGyunia: pra fugir à guerra na síria surgem os refugiados a invadir a europa
MaGyunia: e ha muitos muçulmanos a aderir ao estado islâmico e a planear estes ataques
MaGyunia: como a al-qaeda fazia
MaGyunia: porque um muçulmano radical vê qualquer um q nao adere ao islão como merecedor da morte
MaGyunia: são psicopatas lunáticos
berusssama: e e adilma ainda que deichar los vir para ca ve se pode
MaGyunia: é o que a religião faz
thiagoanimefnd07: cara sem isso pfv
lucas1603: concordo berussama
MaGyunia: eles vêm pra europa de barco porque ha uma ilha italiana que nao fica muito longe do norte de áfrica
MaGyunia: que é onde fica a síria etc.
MaGyunia: eles querem ir pra alemanha etc., mas ainda n conseguiram chegar lá
MaGyunia: e os países ja tão pondo restrições e a erguer muros
MaGyunia: a europa nao pode ser invadida
thiagoanimefnd07: vai ter live hj dbs ????????
MaGyunia: o estado islâmico tem que ser destruído absolutamente
lucas1603: vai sim
MaGyunia: claro que vai
thiagoanimefnd07: ok
MaGyunia: e o Freeza vai ressuscitar e dizimar o estado islâmico
MaGyunia: no 6º universo já nem há terra
MaGyunia: por causa da guerra
MaGyunia: é um milagre ainda haver
MaGyunia: depois da guerra fria e das bombas nucleares e destas guerras todas
luan20: vdd
lucas1603: vdd
MaGyunia: mas o médio oriente já mete nojo
weto: vdd
lucas1603: vdd
MaGyunia: todos os dias atentados guerra violência decapitações
MaGyunia: mais vale arrasar aquilo tudo e acabou a história
MaGyunia: mas isso ia contra as pretensões da rússia e da china e nao se pode brincar com a rússia e a china
lucas1603: aparece logo gelton
MaGyunia: já curamos o cancro, já fomos à lua, já descobrimos a energia nuclear, criamos cidades, internet, composições musicais, tudo
MaGyunia: mas metade da população do mundo ainda morre à fome
MaGyunia: e as guerras com milhares de anos continuam
MaGyunia: a humanidade n tem correcção
MaGyunia: vai-se auto-destruir
MaGyunia: desde que seja depois do fim de Super tudo bem
luan20: Nos mesmos vamos destruir a terrar
MaGyunia: eu vou destruir a terra porque sou o Hakaishin Birusu
luan20: kkk
lucas1603: k
MaGyunia: a quantidade de vezes que ele diz q vai destruir a terra
MaGyunia: e acaba por nao destruir
porcino: oi
thiagoanimefnd07: mais de 8.000
lucas1603: oi
porcino: kd dragon ball?
MaGyunia: ate isso os americanos pegaram mal
MaGyunia: n era 9.000, sempre foi 8.000
weto: Iluminatis
luan20: kkkkkkk
MaGyunia: discurso alterado, música de fundo alterada, ridículo
lucas1603: quem assistiu dragon ball kai hj ??
MaGyunia: Brasil 1 Alemanha 7
weto: Nova Ordem Mundial
MaGyunia: Kroos
weto: klose
MaGyunia: Klose
MaGyunia: Thomas Müller
luan20: Vou chamar o Saitaman
luan20: kkkkkkkkk
weto: Oscar
MaGyunia: Fred
porcino: Saitama > Goku
thiagoanimefnd07: acha que os 5 guerreiros serão goku gohan vegeta goten e trunks ?
MaGyunia: Goku, Vegeta e Gohan tão garantidos
MaGyunia: depois depende
MaGyunia: se for o Gotenks o outro deve ser Piccolo
luan20: Mano pode existe outros guerreiros alem dos Z
thiagoanimefnd07: e bill e whiss pra completar ?
MaGyunia: senão devem ir Goten e Trunks separados, ou seja, 5 Saiya-jin
lucas1603: acho q vai ser goku vegeta majin boo, n° 18 e piccolo
MaGyunia: o Gohan e o Gotenks são superiores ao Majin Buu lucas
luan20: Acho que vai aparece pesonagem novos pra forma a equipe
porcino: espero que no 6º universo tenha os saiyajins, muito provavel?
thiagoanimefnd07: seria foda o trunks do futuro voltar e participar
MaGyunia: no 6º universo vai ser o Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Dilma Rousseff e André Schürrle
lucas1603: seria msm
thiagoanimefnd07: ou o n° 17 lutar
weto: trunten
MaGyunia: nunca mais vai haver Trunks do futuro
MaGyunia: nem Bardock
weto: potara
MaGyunia: nem Vegitto
MaGyunia: nem Brolly, q nunca existiu
MaGyunia: nem Tarble
MaGyunia: nem Raditz
thiagoanimefnd07: trunks do futuro tem chance sim
porcino: quando começa saporra de DBS?
rukamovic: potalla
lucas1603: tem gnt q acha q vai ter bardocck no time do champ
luan20: kkkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: 22
MaGyunia: quando der 9 horas ali no canto superior esquerdo do live
thiagoanimefnd07: kkkkkkk
lucas1603: :
porcino: :0
MaGyunia: tá em 8:02
rukamovic: DBS
rukamovic: KD DBS?
lucas1603: 22:00
porcino: eita, vai demorar
lucas1603: já falei
nathanda39: vdd
rukamovic: QUE BOSTA VELHO
MaGyunia: qual é a cena do Bardock ? o Bardock nunca mais vai aparecer
MaGyunia: os guerreiros do 6º universo vao ser completamente diferentes e desconhecidos
nathanda39: "verão"
pauloggamer: ah veio vai demora
MaGyunia: mas pra terem hipótese contra o Goku, Vegeta, etc. com o poder actual deles devem ser muito muito fortes
luan20: Pra me bardock morreu junto com planeta não considero aquele OVI sei la como e
rukamovic: AQUI NO NORDESTE QUE HORA COMEÇA?
MaGyunia: luan esse filme não é canon
lucas1603: lógico q champa não vai arrumar qualquer pessoa pro time dele
MaGyunia: o Bardock morreu qd o Freeza destruiu o Planeta Vegeta, ponto
weto: eu penso que quando Bardock derrotou o antepassado de freeza, ele lutava com freeza do universo 6, e ele não morreu contra freeza, só de alguma forma, foi para o universo 6.
luan20: Mas no mangá ele não vira SJJ
thiagoanimefnd07: 21.00 começa aqui no nordeste
porcino: Se bardock existir no 6º universo, vai ser foda demais
luan20: ssj
rukamovic: VALEU THIAGO!
luan20: MaGyunia No Manga ele não vira SSJ
MaGyunia: nem vira nem tem que virar
MaGyunia: isso não é canon
MaGyunia: o Bardock morreu no special dele contra o Freeza, acabou
lucas1603: vou esquentar meu jantar pera
luan20: Sim Sim
MaGyunia: não voltou atrás no tempo nem lutou contra um antepassado do Freeza
luan20: Isso Isso
MaGyunia: esse filme é como os outros
MaGyunia: são só cenários hipotéticos
thiagoanimefnd07: queria ver a mãe do goku no 6° universo
manoxablau: Namoral
manoxablau: pq n começou ainda?
nathanda39: Só 22h
thiagoanimefnd07: bugooooo
manoxablau: PQP
manoxablau: ESQUECI DO HORÁRIO DE VERÃO
nathanda39: 01100111 01101111 01101011 01110101
nathanda39: quem acerta?
weto: morte
nathanda39: Not
weto: não sei então
weto: parece morte
lucas1603: voltei
lucas1603: sentiram minha falta?
nathanda39: Me parece uma disputa? Algo na política, será?
weto: sim
weto: isso
weto: tão falando da França
MaGyunia: quando foi a cena dos cartoonistas
MaGyunia: foram alguns terroristas
MaGyunia: mataram 4 ou 5
MaGyunia: agora foram mais de 100
MaGyunia: foi tudo coordenado
MaGyunia: em varios sitios ao mm tempo
MaGyunia: como um ataque militar
MaGyunia: a Europa tá condenada
luan20: ?????
weto: Illuminatis
nathanda39: ???
MaGyunia: aqui em Portugal tão falando da frança a toda a hora
weto: ????
MaGyunia: esse é o pior atentado desde o 11 de setembro
carlabeatriz: Boa Noite!
MaGyunia: mais valia enfiar uma série de bombas atómicas naquela zona toda do médio oriente
weto: Boa Noite
lucas1603: bom dia
MaGyunia: acabou-se o problema
MaGyunia: como dizia o Stalin
luan20: Flw volto as 22h
carlabeatriz: Infelizmente a nossa casa não está muito limpa....
lucas1603: flw
MaGyunia: "a morte resolve tudo, quando há homens, há problemas, sem homens, sem problemas"
weto: Good Night
lucas1603: good night
MaGyunia: good evening
MaGyunia: good night é quando te despedes até amanhã
weto: tarde não
MaGyunia: tarde é afternoon
weto: sei
weto: to me despedindo
nathanda39: kkk
nathanda39: ok
porcino: vai não
carlabeatriz: terrorismo na Europa, terremoto no Japão, Guerra no Oriente Médio, desastres políticos e ambientais no Brasil. Espero que Deus esteja nos observando.
berusssama: eu tamben
MaGyunia: deus ? qual deus ?
MaGyunia: o Hakaishin Birusu ?
weto: Que idade vocês tem?
MaGyunia: esse ao menos existe
carlabeatriz: kkkkkkkkkk
MaGyunia: em anime
lucas1603: 15
carlabeatriz: 23
MaGyunia: 32
weto: velho
weto: idoso
lucas1603: kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
weto: mas respeito você
carlabeatriz: galera, vocês estão assistindo Dragon Ball Kai?
MaGyunia: muitos alemães que jogaram contra o Brasil nos 7-1 tinham 32 ou mais
lucas1603: eu to
mcgame20: hey cara nao consigo descer para ver o video a ceta que desce nao esta aqui
carlabeatriz: Não preocupem, fiquem felizes se conseguirem chegar aos 32...
nathanda39: Dbz kai dnv '-.-
MaGyunia: os que têm agora 10 ou 15 ou 20 nao chegam
MaGyunia: isto vai rebentar tudo
MaGyunia: 3ª guerra mundial
MaGyunia: nuclear
renanrodriigues: Cheguei padawans
weto: bah
porcino: Nem falo nada, que o Deus dos Islamistas é o mesmo da bíblia
kaua: iae
lucas1603: db é eterno
MaGyunia: o problema é esse, acreditar e agir de acordo com histórias fictícias como a bíblia
MaGyunia: alucinações colectivas
mcgame20: Algum da equipe me ajuda,por exemplo entro no site ai a barra de descer do video funfa passa um tempo e ela nao esta mais e o video fica cortado.
carlabeatriz: Eu gostaria de conseguir acordar as 5 da manhã para assistir DBKAI, mas não consigo, estaé a verdade kkkkkk
lucas1603: eu consigo
carlabeatriz: Aqui não tem horário de verão, por isso começa bem mais cedo.
rukamovic: doragon boru zeto!
lucas1603: aqui tem
lucas1603:
carlabeatriz: Mas eu confesso que prefiro a versão clássica
porcino: vamos dar KI para Goku nos salvar
lucas1603: vamos
carlabeatriz: \o/
ssjgod: oi eu não sou o Goku.
porcino: \o/
weto: Se bem que a bíblia ja passou por mais de 15 línguas, pode ter alterações nela
rukamovic: \o/
MaGyunia: a bíblia é ficção científica de má qualidade
carlabeatriz: e quem pode garantir qual é a religião mais verdadeira?
ssjgod: respeita rapaz,Kamen acredite no Son-Goku.
MaGyunia: uma vez não tinha combustível pra fazer fogo e usei uma bíblia
mcgame20: deixa pr ala ja resolvi
carlabeatriz: Qual o Deus que existe de verdade? Qual religião está certa?
MaGyunia: nenhuma religião é verdadeira, é tudo alucinações colectivas mantidas ao longo dos séculos através do poder da igreja
lucas1603: quem é o mais velho aqui?
MaGyunia: cheia de pedófilos
ssjgod: sei lá tem alguém com mais de 40 anos aqui ?
nathanda39: 16!
nathanda39: kk
MaGyunia: eu tenho milhões de anos
thiagoanimefnd07: quem somos nós pra julgar os outros ???
MaGyunia: Birusu
weto: 16
carlabeatriz: Eu vou dizer uma coisa, serei criticada e tal mas, O Deus é o mesmo, agora, o ser humano em suas diversas regionalidades, fez as mais diferentes interpretações de suas palavras.
mcgame20: Cara o seguinte,se nao cre em nada comente nada apenas respeite.
lucas1603: quem é o mais novo aqui?
cacildes: A
lucas1603: b
ssjgod: C
carlabeatriz: c
carlabeatriz: d
lucas1603: e
thiagoanimefnd07: f
weto: g
carlabeatriz: h
lucas1603: h
lucas1603: i
carlabeatriz: j
thiagoanimefnd07: j
ssjgod: porra cade DB Super ? só to vendo um japa aqui falar.
weto: k
lucas1603: l
carlabeatriz: m
lucas1603: n
thiagoanimefnd07: o
lucas1603: p
carlabeatriz: q
lucas1603: r
MaGyunia: eu tenho tanto direito de comentar a minha posição quanto a religião se sou ateu como aqueles que são crentes
carlabeatriz: s
porcino: ssjgod: 22:00
lucas1603: t
carlabeatriz: u
ssjgod: mesa redonda discutindo DB Super nos japas kkkk
lucas1603: v
MaGyunia: agora tão a falar na hipótese de o Bardock aparecer
thiagoanimefnd07: seria bom se fosse
porcino: sinto lhe informar, mas Saitama > Goku God
carlabeatriz: x
carlabeatriz: z
ssjgod: Saitama já destruiu um universo ? então xiu ae
mcgame20: O que saitama pode fazer melhor que o Goku?
renanrodriigues: Siiim o/
porcino: tudo kkkkk
ssjgod: caralho entrou um RATO AQUI no meu quarto.
carlabeatriz: Oláaaa
MaGyunia: esse tá dizendo que o Bardock é poderoso, mas a mulher diz que é fraco
weto: não te ouço
MaGyunia: só tem 10.000
mcgame20: Simmmm
rvs_20: sim
renanrodriigues: Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiim o/
lucas1603: eu to
MaGyunia: arranja um gato
MaGyunia: um neko
Guest Chatting Is Enabled
carlabeatriz: Estou
renanrodriigues: Vaaaai Corinthians
ssjgod: Ratasana
Guest_58801417572: estou
Guest_98801417249: .
animesdigital: Pessoal aviso de promkoção ANIMESDIGITAL
champa: Eae Gelton \õ/
porcino: oi gordinho
Guest_80671417807: alo mae to na globo
porcino: opa
MaGyunia: o facebook tá todo cheio de cenas da frança
porcino: facebookison
mcgame20: Gelton modinha com filtro da frança
gakazi: poxa
gakazi: n e modinha kra
gakazi: e solidariedade
Guest_60161417878: coxaaaaaaa
gakazi: plm eu tenho
carlabeatriz: O face é dele, posta o que quiser!
porcino: gente, no Quênia morreu mais gente em ataque terrorista
Guest_79371417781: ja acabo o dbz
animesdigital: COMENTÁRIO PREMIADO Aqui tem !! Os 3 comentários mais curtidos GANHAM um DVD do DragonBall Super com frete grátis. Obrigatório compartilhar este post. Contagem de curtidas 21/nov as 20h. POST DA PROMOÇÃO: www.facebook.com/animesdigital/videos/vb.219903661370476/1154218291272337
mcgame20: Cade a solidariedade com as 7.200 pessoas que morreram por conflistos terrorista na Ucrania?
Guest_74321417913: buuu
ssjgod: quero um DVD do Dragon Ball Super com o ep 5
mcgame20: aw conta outra
Guest_58801417572: kkkkkkkkkk né
mcgame20: conflitos*
porcino: parem de chupar bolas da frança. um hora a gente vai ter que enfrentar esta praga do islã
MaGyunia: cadê a solidariedade pelas cruzadas, pela inquisição, pela pedofilia e vidas destruídas e 90% de todas as guerras travadas na história da humanidade em nome de um ser invisível ?
gakazi: prefiro fica vendo os kra falando em japones
ssjgod: idem
gakazi: #PRAYFORJAPAN
Guest_79371417781: q hr vai comeca o dbs
gakazi: 22 horas
ssjgod: #somostodosmacacos
porcino: aqui já teve caso de terrorismo em uma escola do RJ
carlabeatriz: depende do seu fusohário
weto: Alguém tem menos de 16 anos?
ssjgod: acho que não...
Guest_20961417292: tenho 17 serve
gakazi: tenho 16
lucas1603: eu tenho 15
MaGyunia: poe se rezando em territórios controlados pelo estado islâmico na síria e decapitam você enquanto reza
carlabeatriz: Gelton você está bem?
Guest_70431417996: 22
MaGyunia: pq acreditam q deus tá do lado deles
gakazi: primeira vez minha vendo live
porcino: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Realengo
gakazi: desse site
newswwe: ja acabou?
gakazi: casa do kame e foda
MaGyunia: o problema não é o islão, é o próprio conceito de religião no Século XXI
Guest_40131418081: Salve
ssjgod: que horas começa Dragon Ball Super ?
Guest_29991417835: Que horas vai começar??
gakazi: 22
gakazi: porra
porcino: 22:00
gakazi: 22 horas
ssjgod: quero ver o Senhor Freeza
gakazi: nem sei se vai mostra nesse ep
Guest_16521412825: 21:00
Guest_16651418022: cu
gakazi: ow ceis tao vendo o mangá?
ssjgod: sim
gakazi: mano o manga ta mt foda
Guest_74231418147: va]
Guest_98801417249: ..
guieze: de eu ve se entendi tem que comentar aquela publicação pra participar
carlabeatriz: faltou o Upa, e o Hiajirobe
gakazi: naao guiezew
animesdigital: ISSO MESMO
ssjgod: Upa é noob
gakazi: ah sim
gakazi: kkkkkk
Guest_86621418154: gfg
Guest_79371417781: kk
nathanda39: kkkk hello
champa: conversa com ajente gelton '-'
mcgame20: Meu time Goku,Vegeta,Majim Boo,Piccolo e Gohan
gakazi: meia hora caraaaio
Guest_58801417572: q ep vaqi ser
Guest_74231418147: vai estar legendado??????
ssjgod: 30 minutos ainda ? vou mijar e tomar um banho ja volto.
Guest_36591417975: que hrs comesa
carlabeatriz: tem tbm aquele android que parece o Frankstein
Guest_98801417249: ohhhhhhhh
animesdigital: Os 3 comentários mais curtidos GANHAM um DVD do DragonBall Super com frete grátis. Obrigatório compartilhar este post. Contagem de curtidas 21/nov as 20h.
Guest_86621418154: maior onda
gakazi: PQ TODO MUNDO ACHA Q SO VAI TER GUERREIRO DA TERRA NO 7 UNIVERSO?
Guest_58801417572: q ep vai ser
gakazi: PQ TODO MUNDO ACHA Q SO VAI TER GUERREIRO DA TERRA NO 7 UNIVERSO?
gakazi: porra tem varios planetas
gakazi: krl
Guest_72711418152: meu time: goku,vegeta,gohan,picolo e trunks do futuro
gakazi: pode ter varios
Guest_98801417249: Foda-se
ssjgod: tem alguém mais forte que os guerreiros da terra ? não
Guest_30611418320: f
Guest_86621418154: quero que melhorem essa animação
Guest_98801417249: Foda-se
carlabeatriz: e pq todo mundo acha que um universo é do bem e o outro do mal?
gakazi: tem o paikohan
gakazi: eu n acho isso
Guest_25981417614: eu ja curti a pagina
ssjgod: Paikuhan esta morto
Guest_72711418152: aposto bardock no time do champa.
Guest_30611418320: O broly podia tar vivo no 6 universo
Caster
animefnd: http://www.animesdigital.com.br/DVDs-de-ANIME-Lancamentos/DVD-Dragon-Ball/Dragon-Ball-Todas-Colecoes.html
gakazi: claro q n
lucas1603: gelton qual é o seu personagem preferido de db??
ssjgod: Paikuhan treina no outro mundo ta morto
gakazi: e dai
weto: eu penso que quando Bardock derrotou o antepassado de freeza, ele lutava com freeza do universo 6, e ele não morreu contra freeza, só de alguma forma, foi para o universo 6. Seria possível?
gakazi: ele e do 7 universo
Guest_98801417249: aaa
Guest_72711418152: o broly não existe para o akira.
Guest_86621418154: kamehameha
Guest_98801417249: aaa
gakazi: broly e apenas de filme
gakazi: porra
MaGyunia: o time do 7º universo é fácil, Goku, Vegeta e Gohan tão garantidos, depois se Gotenks for fusionado vai o Piccolo, senão vai Goten e Trunks, um time de 5 Saiya-jins
gakazi: n ta incluso na serie
ssjgod: Piccolo>>>Paikuhan vlw flw
gakazi: n kra
carlabeatriz: "tentando conquistar o azul do céu, trazendo na mente o sonho de caçador".
Guest_58801417572: talvez
gakazi: Paikuhan luto de igual pra igual com o goku
MaGyunia: não vai aparecer mais Bardock nem Paiku-han nem Brolly que nunca existiu nem Trunks do futuro nem Tarble nunca mais
Guest_25981417614: piccolo n vai majim buu rsrs
Guest_98801417249: Paikuhan é filler viado
ssjgod: lutou contra um Goku ssj1 até o Piccolo faria melhor
gakazi: sei n
gakazi: goku ssj 2
porcino: O Time do 6º universo pode ser muito bem Bardock, Freeza, Goku, Vegeta e Majinboo
carlabeatriz: Mas será que todos poderão participar? Ou seja, será que gente morta pode entrar no torneior?
gakazi: na vdd
ssjgod: ssj2 sem os raios ?
mcgame20: Thunks do futuro talvez e Tarble tb ja que ele ja foi mencionado
ssjgod: não
gakazi: pq bardock kra
gakazi: ta drogado
Guest_79371417781: kkk
gakazi: kkkkkkkkk
lucas1603: gohan vc já foi foda
ssjgod: Bardock é zoeira só pode kkkkkkkkkk
gakazi: gohan ta mo lixao
gakazi: qdo era novo podia ser mais foda q geral
mcgame20: Gohan só se ele volta-se a treinar
gakazi: mas viro um bosta
