Don't know if anyone else in Portugal watched the episode as it aired, maybe I was the only one.
I'm at a loss for words. After the whole process of revitalization of Dragonball we've been going through in the last years, with the 2008 special, Kai, Battle of Gods and Fukkatsu no F they went and decided to blow things up with an entirely new series.
This is my first post here ever, I finally decided to officially join the forum last May, but I've been following all of your discussions on a daily basis and I recognize in almost all of you both the level of fandom, the intellectual ability and the degree of knowledge of Dragonball's immense history and its most recent developments, and I'm sure I can gain a lot from starting to post here on a regular basis from now on.
There are many DBZ contents of my own creation on my YouTube page and on a Dragonball-dedicate blog I've created that I want you all to look at and share with you.
Thank you all for being "present" here at this point. Whether you're a long-time hardcore fan in your 30s like me or a younger individual, I feel as if we're all part of the same world and that our love for Dragonball connects us. It's actually hard to explain.
I'm not going to go in-depth in my analysis of any particular aspect of either the first episode we've just watched from DBSuper, or of BoG, FnF or any other DBZ-related subject matter.
I'd just like to share with you all my degree of emotion when the opening started and I felt that I was part of a small chunk of the world that was watching what we've been waiting for and discussing for so long.
I'll leave any deeper comments, shares and analysis for later. Now I have to take this in, absorb it and deal with the degree of deep emotion this caused me.
I doubt most of us even need subtitles anymore to understand 90% of the Japanese script, after years and years, decades even, of watching and rewatching hundreds if not thousands of times episodes of DB and DBZ to the point where most of us know each and every line uttered by every single character. At least this is my case. I literally learned spoken Japanese from watching and rewatching Dragonball Z on a daily basis for basically every week in the last 20 years of my life, especially after it became quite easy to have access to the original Japanese version, which was quite hard to get to up until a certain point in the mid-2000s.
Goddamn it, Dragonball is an entire separate universe on its own and it's in that universe that we all live in and that I want to discuss with you in each and every single little detail from now on.
Thank you all, thanks Akira Toriyama, thanks Japan.
Arigato gozaimasu.
MaGyunia
______________________________________________________________________________________
Doctor. wrote:
I prefer Dan Dan to this OP too, even though I enjoy both. I'm not really sure why people are saying "take that GT", when GT's first episode was almost as good, it's from here that we'll see if Super holds up or not.
There's a big difference between GT and DBSuper. GT was created in a rush right after 7 years of making up stories and characters and basically took on the worst DBZ had by Majin Buu's saga and had none of the elements that made DBZ so brutally great. By the time of Majin Buu, you can tell the creator was already struggling to find ideas, concepts, storylines and character interactions and backgrounds which could be both new and of the same quality as those seen in any of the previous arcs, right from the Tenshinhan arc until the Cell arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs. Besides, unlike GT, Super was and will actually be overseen by Toriyama, which pretty much just guarantees the quality of the stories, whether we're talking about serious action, fighting, villains and drama or lighter, smoother and comic aspects.
Moreover, even taking into account that this isn't actually the first really new material from DBZ, after the 2008, 2011, 2013 and 2015 movies, Toriyama is still in the process of revitalization with a clear head after so many years of Dragonball-story-creation inactivity, so he'll approach this new series with a much clearer head and come up with stories and backgrounds of roughly the same quality of what made any arc from DB and DBZ so great, although with a slightly different touch, considering the new audiences and the changes in Toriyama's viewpoints as a creative individual themselves.
______________________________________________________________________________________
shinmaru wrote:
Maybe this is going to be the best Dragonball ever. I have a good feeling about this series very good feeling because things look different in a good way especially after seen Kai 2.0.
I wouldn't go so far as to postulate that this might be the best Dragonball ever. We're talking about untouchable stuff when we mention the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ. It's virtually impossible to match it in terms of quality. Besides, we need to approach this recent and new material from a different standpoint while at the same time be able to fit it into the history of DBZ from the 80's and 90's.
This is entirely new material and there's an enormous potential for character and storyline development taking into account the 10 year gap between Kid Buu's defeat and the last episodes of Dragonball Z. If they're going to retcon BoG and maybe Fukkatsu no F, which I personally would prefer they didn't, as I had already went through the process of accepting them as canon stories following the Majin Buu arc, then I wouldn't really mind if they retconned those last few episodes and got rid of Uub. It would have been better if Z ended in another way, since we're stuck in this 10-year time period and anything will eventually lead or be followed up by the last Tenkaichi Budokai in Z and Uub's appearance, in a setting that doesn't really please me. I'm not even considering GT, it's not even canon and is not, nor does it deserve to be, a follow-up to Dragonball and Dragonball Z.
______________________________________________________________________________________
thesupergodman wrote:
Guys, while the series is having a strong start, we must remain wary. It could start good but fall into the same rut GT did. All in all, I hope the series becomes bigger and better than DB and Z.
I'm sorry but I'll just repeat what I wrote earlier in response to this. There's no way in hell Super could end up in the same road as GT:
"There's a big difference between GT and DBSuper. GT was created in a rush right after 7 years of making up stories and characters and basically took on the worst DBZ had by Majin Buu's saga and had none of the elements that made DBZ so brutally great. By the time of Majin Buu, you can tell the creator was already struggling to find ideas, concepts, storylines and character interactions and backgrounds which could be both new and of the same quality as those seen in any of the previous arcs, right from the Tenshinhan arc until the Cell arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs. Besides, unlike GT, Super was and will actually be overseen by Toriyama, which pretty much just guarantees the quality of the stories, whether we're talking about serious action, fighting, villains and drama or lighter, smoother and comic aspects.
Moreover, even taking into account that this isn't actually the first really new material from DBZ, after the 2008, 2011, 2013 and 2015 movies, Toriyama is still in the process of revitalization with a clear head after so many years of Dragonball-story-creation inactivity, so he'll approach this new series with a much clearer head and come up with stories and backgrounds of roughly the same quality of what made any arc from DB and DBZ so great, although with a slightly different touch, considering the new audiences and the changes in Toriyama's viewpoints as a creative individual themselves."
And there's no way it can get bigger and/or better than DB and/or DBZ:
"I wouldn't go so far as to postulate that this might be the best Dragonball ever. We're talking about untouchable stuff when we mention the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ. It's virtually impossible to match it in terms of quality. Besides, we need to approach this recent and new material from a different standpoint while at the same time be able to fit it into the history of DBZ from the 80's and 90's."
______________________________________________________________________________________
What I liked most about the whole Beerus' scene of destroying a planet was the immediate aftermath, namely his attitude. It's really nothing new considering his character, which we've already been introduced to in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but the fact that he cleans his teeth off of the food he just ate in the planet he just destroyed while looking so relaxed and even talking while he does it is just priceless.
About Muten Roshi, the whole leaks and information we've been getting in the last days and weeks almost on a daily basis didn't really lead anybody to anticipate such a random and hilarious entrance, but that's what you expect from completely new material. We had just been exposed to small, although perhaps the most important, bits of what was to come. I also loved the way Chi Chi reacted to his indecency, this time she didn't beat him up or hit him with a frying pan or anything. It's stuff like revitalizing and keeping alive some, most or indeed all of the most notable characters from the very early stages of DB and DBZ that we enjoy.
Like I said before, Super, and indeed the 2008 movie, Battle of Gods and Fukkatsu no F all need to be viewed and analyzed from a different standpoint while at the same time adding all of it to the DB and DBZ history from the 80's and 90's. You can't get rid of characters like Muten Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kaiou-sama, among many others, and you can't really downsize the part huge and extremely powerful characters like Piccolo disappear partially or altogether either, which were severe mistakes made at some points during the Majin Buu arc in DBZ and the entirety of GT.
Most of us would like to see extremely well-developed characters with fantastic backgrounds like Bardock, King Vegeta or Vegitto make an appearance, or even Raditz, but I really don't think any of that is going to happen. Apart from these first soft and smooth family episodes, the introduction of Beerus and Whis, the introduction of Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin God and the resurrection of Freeza, it's going to move on to entirely new stuff previously unexplored. The concept of gathering Dragonballs from distant places outside of Earth may lead us to automatically think about the Namek arc and especially the first stage of GT, but I'll bet you that by the time we get to the point of exploring the 6th Universe in Super the series will take on a more serious tone, with extremely powerful villains a lot of drama, much in the same way as it happened in any of the arcs of DBZ. Whether you're a long-time hardcore DBZ fan in your 30's like me or a younger fan, you obviously want and indeed need some dose of random humor, but eventually what we really want and need to watch is epic battles with extremely well-developed and interesting storylines, plots and characters, along with drama. DBZ was extremely serious as far as action, drama and blood and guts goes, it featured genocidal maniacal villains, demons, ultra-powerful cyborgs, psychopaths, epic drama, as opposed to the first all of DB, which was intended at first to just give you a lot of random humor and especially the concept of random adventure.
I'm not entirely happy with the fact they're obviously retconning both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, as I had already went through the process of integrating them as full-fledged stories (unlike the other movies) which were just as much a continuation to DBZ and the Majin Buu arc as the last episodes of Z, but at least they realized the potential of recently created characters like Beerus and Whis and decided to introduce them in the storyline, give them a significant role and make them a big part of the series, although in a different setting when compared to BoG. I also doubt we'll even hear about Tarble in Super, he might just lack the potential to be seen as an interesting character to introduce and/or develop, and obviously the 2008 movie will basically just be "erased" (as in, made non-canon).
The fact that Beerus is already awake 6 months after Kid Buu's defeat rather than 4 years later is pretty much the catalyst for the need to change the entire storyline and make BoG and Fukkatsu no F side-stories instead of part of the main timelime.
All in all, the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball with new material that we've been going through in the last years, with Kai, the 3 movies and now Super is being done in an almost perfect way: they picked up the story exactly where they should have, right after the Majin Buu arc, taking advantage of the 10 year gap between that and the Tenkaichi Budokai in the last episodes of DBZ, which means the stage or level of power we're dealing with in these first episodes of Super before the emergence of the Super Saiya-jin God or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God stage as far as each character goes is and will be done in the following manner: Goku's most powerful stage is Super Saiya-jin 3, Gohan is pretty much as strong as Goku in his Ultimate stage, Gotenks is capable of reaching Super Saiya-jin 3, Vegeta hasn't gone beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 and Majin Buu is slightly stronger than Vegeta or Goku in their respective Super Saiya-jin 2 stages. Now we'll get to see the exact procedure through which Goku and Vegeta will reach SSJG and SSJGSSJ.
I'll never be happy with the way DBZ ended, with the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, especially because it actually caused any exploitation of the 10 years between Kid Buu's defeat and that last tournament to inevitably lead to those last episodes and the appearance of Uub 10 years later, unless they decide to retcon that as well, which they obviously won't do, as it's part of the manga. But on the other hand it gives us 10 years to explore. I'm not even considering the events of GT, as I regard them as non-canon and "non-existent", or side-stories, much in the same way the 13 movies were (the only ones we could fit in the series' timeline would actually be movies 9, right after the Cell Games, and 13, right after Buu's defeat). And I won't even analyze or comment on GT's quality in terms of story or character development, all the mistakes have already been discussed and pretty much identified, they made it in a rush, got partially or totally rid of significant characters, Toriyama wasn't involved and all of it was thought of and done after 7 years of continuous struggling for new ideas for DBZ, by which time the potential for both new and quality stories was pretty much just depleted. GT basically took on the worst elements of Z which we already saw at some points in the Buu arc, and took on none of the elements that made all the arcs from DB and DBZ so powerful and great in all aspects, beginning in the Tenshinhan arc and up until the Cell arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs in the middle. I'm not saying I don't like Majin Buu's arc, there were definitely a few concepts and characters with a degree of quality on par with what we saw in the other sagas, like Dabura, Vegitto, Super Saiya-jin 3, the concept of fusion, the Kaioshin, Ultimate Gohan, Goten, Majin Vegeta, some of the fights throughout the arc, etc., but there were also some shortcomings when compared to, say, the Saiya-jin or Freeza arcs, which had a much more serious and dramatic tone, just to mention or identify two of them randomly.
______________________________________________________________________________________
A lot of my worries are gone, first episode was great!
Since we know now that Gohan and Videl aren't married yet I am sticking to my theory that Beerus crashes their wedding instead of Bulma's birthday.
ONWARD TO EPISODE 2!
Image
Why is he even outside the plane at all? :lol:
So much build-up to Vegeta fun times; I may be more excited for this episode than I was for the first one.
It's just natural one would be more hyped for a Vegeta family trip than for smooth, soft or even comic instances of Goku's family, given their characters. The sheer concept of having Vegeta, who was first introduced as a major psychotic villain with desires of immortality and prince of a bloody and powerful fighting race, a killing machine with a dark past, having "fun", whether he deep down wants to or not, gets one hyped. We've already seen some of his interactions with Trunks (both as a young boy and, in a different setting, as Mirai no Trunks) in the early Majin Buu arc and throughout the arc itself. We got to see some previously only imagined moments of interaction between Vegeta and Bulma as man and woman in BoG, but, indeed, any feelings Vegeta was shown to have for his family and even for Goku's friends and Earthlings in general throughout the Majin Buu arc - especially when he hugs Trunks and says goodbye to him, Bulma and Kakarotto before blowing himself up, are always hidden and, being an introverted, hard-to-talk individual myself, I imagine that it must be pretty hard for him to be "forced" to be around regular folks all the time with all the constant nagging when what you really want is to train to get stronger and think very lowly of society in general and don't even recognize in them the intellectual or moral capability or right to address him. None of these constant instances of lack of demonstration of feelings for anybody necessarily means they don't exist, obviously. That's just his character, and I'll bet you that when the concept of Vegeta was first introduced in the Saiya-jin arc Toriyama never meant to eventually turn into one of the good guys so fast (which, for example, happened to Piccolo, who in a matter of 6 years went from being the reincarnation of one of the most psychotic and evil villains of the entire history of DBZ to giving his life to save that of the son of his previous worst mortal enemy); regarding Vegeta's very gradual and long transformation from a full-fledged villain into an undeniable part of the team and, in fact, some sort of a family man, things just went that way, after Toriyama saw the enormous potential he had as an anti-hero figure and the ultimate badass in the series. He had to keep him there and expand on his background by linking him - along with the entire Saiya-jin race - to Freeza. You can see some little lessening of evil when he joins Krillin and Gohan against the Ginyu Tokusentai, or when he spares Krillin and Gohan's life on Namek a few episodes before that, and then a lot more in the Jinzouningen saga when he not only fathered a son with Bulma and chose to live on Earth but ended up swallowing his humongous pride to help Gohan get rid of Cell once and for all in desperate circumstances; 7 years later, with Trunks born, it's just normal his evil was all but extinguished, and even more so after the Majin Buu arc, where he had to in fact team up with Goku more than once to save his "friends", Earth and the Universe. But that doesn't mean he suddenly has or ever will indeed be able to become a joyful character, that would betray the very concept of Vegeta itself, it'll never happen.
In the second episode we'll most likely focus on the Vegeta's family version of fun family times, whereas in the first one we saw yesterday we focused on Goku's. We'll be able to expand on Vegeta as a family man quite a bit, but it would be best not to overdo it. Just have him be pissed off and annoyed all the time surrounded by regular humans and perhaps shout at someone or perhaps go so far as to destroy something out of sheer anger. In the early days, he would destroy someone, or an entire planet, rather than an object, and with a big smile on his face. That's how much he changed. It took time and several arcs, but he did eventually change and I guess, as they were discussing in Battle of Gods, we can call him "pure-hearted", as in, not evil (anymore).
______________________________________________________________________________________
I know this was never intented to be taken seriously, but I've always found the whole Superman vs Goku debate pretty absurd. First of all, even if they want to pick someone from the universe of Dragonball as the strongest fighter, it's not Goku, he's always close to the top but there have always been, in all arcs, someone stronger than him. Overall, as far as we know, Whis is the strongest fighter from the universe of Dragonball so far, followed by Beerus and/or Champa's attendant. Before the introduction of Beerus and Whis in recent years, more than one version of Super Buu, Janenba (if you count the movies), Gogeta (if you count the movies, the same one, in fact) and especially Vegitto surpass Goku.
Being the main protagonist of a series doesn't necessarily mean you're the strongest fighter of the series, does it? For example, I've always seen Tenshinhan as stronger than Krillin, but pretty much everyone states Krillin as the strongest human mostly due to the fact that he's much closer to Goku and the rest of the gang and always present, whereas Tenshinhan has had long periods of hermit-like absence with Chaozu.
Second of all, and perhaps more importantly, any fighter by, say, the middle of DB was capable of a level of destructive power and energy manipulation superior to that of Superman. Since by the Saiya-jin arc most of the fighters are tens of times stronger than that, and by the Freeza arc tens of times stronger than they were in the Saiya-jin saga, and so on and so on, constantly surpassing each other and reaching new levels of immense power, how can someone even postulate a fair duel between ANY form of Goku against Superman? The two things don't even belong to the same universe in any aspect, except that they're both fictional and both characters have some similarities as far as their background and hero-like characteristics goes.
I mean, even someone as Vegeta in his early days in the Saiya-jin Saga, or Zarbon, could destroy an entire planet. Freeza had a number of soldiers stronger than them, Freeza was hundreds of times stronger than Zarbon, Mirai no Trunks was stronger than him, #17 and #18 were much stronger than Mirai no Trunks, Cell in his second form was much stronger than #17 or #18, Vegeta in the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage was much stronger than Cell in his second stage, Cell in his perfect form was much stronger than Super Vegeta, Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin 2 was much stronger than Perfect Cell, Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2 when they fought each other in the Majin Buu arc were stronger than teen Gohan SSJ2, any form of Majin Buu is stronger than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3 and Ultimate Gohan are much stronger than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2, Vegitto is much stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku or Ultimate Gohan, and Beerus and Whis are even beyond that, and so on, and so on. The debate itself is ridiculous. By the time of even as early as the Saiya-jin saga almost any fighter would be able to wipe out Superman with two fingers.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
-The debate is not about the strongest character in each universe. Superman isn't the strongest DC character either.
-Superman has survived planet-destroying stuff before.
Hope this doesn't turn into a debate, and I'm certainly not gonna start declaring that one or the other would win (I don't really know to be honest), just pointing these two things out.
Sure, for the reasons I've stated it doesn't even deserve to turn into a debate. Besides, even if it were to turn into a debate, this would be the wrong thread. Let's get back to DBSuper.
______________________________________________________________________________________
GokuRules987 wrote:
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
ArcaneSuperSaiyan wrote:
Does anyone know what was up with the scene where Roshi runs into Goku's house yelling something and ChiChi kicks him out? It kind of seemed like he was trying to warn them about something and ChiChi got mad that Goku would have to fight again.
So I'm wondering ...could Roshi sense Beerus...?
He heard Goku just got a lot of money, and wanted some to buy adult DVDs.
Was probably my least favorite moment of the episode, it wasent even funny, just a plain ass pulled moment. Roshi island should be atleast 3000km away from gokus house anyway.
Randomness can actually be seen as a form of humor, one which I particularly am very fond of, and there are plenty throughout DB and DBZ. I laughed my ass off when I suddenly saw Muten Roshi burst out of nowhere inside Chi Chi's house talking about buying sukebe DVDs, especially because none of the information we've been getting on Super in the last days and weeks could possibly lead any of us to anticipate such a scene. Surprising and great way to introduce Muten Roshi in the series right from the start, in fact. He got lucky this time, he didn't get knocked to the ground, or his glasses broken or hit by a frying pan or anything.
Every character who used to be at some point in the 80's and 90's a major character in a particular arc or more than one deserves and needs to have their screen time just like this, obviously taking account their background and characters. I bet you we'll see not only more of Muten Roshi but also the re-introduction of most or indeed all of the most important members of the team, and this obviously includes (it must include, I'd be very disappointed if it didn't) Yamcha and especially the Tenshinhan-Chaozu duo, among many others, in scenes, circumstances and settings that fit them in all aspects, at least for a couple of minutes.
______________________________________________________________________________________
All in all, this first episode managed to contain or pack quite a large chunk of different events from all angles (Goten + Trunks, Gohan + Videl, Beerus, Goku + Goten, Mr. Satan + Goku, Mr. Satan + Majin Buu, Muten Roshi + Chi Chi) in a short period of time. I'm not postulating they're rushing these first lighter, softer episodes to get to the more action/fighting-oriented or serious and dramatic tone of the series, which, if it will happen at all, will most likely have a different tone to it when compared to the genocidal maniacal villains and all the seriousness and drama we had in pretty much all arcs throughout DBZ. The series might get more violent when we finally get past these first introducing episodes, the retelling of the story of Beerus and Whis, the introduction of Champa and his attendant, the attaining by Goku and Vegeta of the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, the resurrection, training and defeat of Freeza and we get to the episodes where we start dealing with the 6th Universe. At this point we can only speculate at what sort of villains or characters or events may happen, but it will really be the first material which will be both completely new/previously unknown or unexplored and at the same time featuring the type of insane fighting and blood and guts any long-time hardcore DBZ fan should want and need.
Regarding the comparison between the first and second episodes, as I said before, it's just natural to be more hyped about the concept of a Vegeta's family fun time when compared to laid back, humorous or smooth events occurring in Goku's family, considering the huge difference in the characters and the fact that Vegeta was first introduced in the Saiya-jin Saga as a major villain with psychopathic violent tendencies, a killing machine with a wish for immortality and for ruling the universe as the prince of a fighting race. It took him - and Toriyama - gradual, very slow and incremental changes in his relationship with others and with himself over the Freeza, Jinzouningen and Majin Buu arcs to reach the point where he can no longer be considered the "evil guy amongst the good guys". We're past that, Vegeta is a family man, but that shouldn't and won't mean he'll lose any of his inability to adapt to society in general and toss away his humongous pride and stoic, serious, reserved character. It wouldn't be Vegeta at all if that ever happened.
Judging from the information we've been getting in the last days and weeks and yesterday's first episode and the preview of the second one, I'd say with a fair degree of certainty and confidence that they're doing things just the right way: a few episodes of character development, covering the retold stories of Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Vegeta and Freeza - BoG and Fukkatsu no F are obviously going to be made "non-canon" although the new characters and developments will be introduced just the same, only in different circumstances and at a different time - and then, finally, moving to the really new material. One might automatically associate the search for "Super Dragon Balls" outside of Earth to the Namek Saga or GT, but the main point of the storylines in DB and especially DBZ has never been to collect the Dragon Balls as it was in the earlier arcs in DB, but to survive and fight in dramatic circumstances against insanely powerful new menaces (although they obviously end up using Shenlong to repair the damage done after every major arc), and I hope they'll follow this trend in Super as well. I want things to get to a point where the circumstances seem so desperate and the enemy is so powerful that it will take a serious and dramatic set of events and transformations to beat and/or kill them, much in the same way we had it in all the arcs from the Tenshinhan arc to the Majin Buu arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs in between. After so many years of creative inactivity and an entire new generation to attract, I'm not expecting so much gore, death, blood and guts or violent fights, but Dragon Ball has always also been about extremely well-conceived character development, both in the good guys and in the villains, and I'm sure we'll get these fundamental and structural elements of DB later on in Super.
I'm not hoping to see dramatic events such as what we've seen in the Saiya-jin, Freeza or Cell arcs, with so many deaths, genocides and violence, they won't go in that direction nor could they even if they wanted to. That atmosphere belongs to the 80's and early 90's and has earned its place in history forever. What we've seen previously in DB and DBZ is pretty much just untouchable and they can't and won't be able to equal it, let alone surpass it. As such, there goes another reason for us to approach this new recent material in recent years, especially Super, from a different standpoint and perspective. We must be able to be open-minded and remain confident about whatever Toriyama plans to develop and introduce to the Dragon Ball universe from now on, it's really not like GT where he wasn't even involved, was made in a rush and got partially or completely rid of fundamental characters with fantastic backgrounds. We must also be able to both be able to see this new, previously unexplored material from a different angle when compared to the 80's and 90's DB and DBZ, but at the same being able to connect the two and believe that whatever is coming will be a worthy continuation of the previous sagas. It's not even a matter of belief to me, it's a mere certainty, in fact. The sheer fact that Toriyama is overseeing this pretty much ensures and guarantees at least an extremely high degree of quality in terms of character development, background and storyline.
I can't actually believe we just saw the first episode of a new Dragon Ball series for 18 years yesterday. We get to get hyped about the next episode without knowing exactly all the details of what's going to happen on a weekly basis. This alone should guarantee the hype for all of us.
______________________________________________________________________________________
When I was watching the commercials before the episode and the clock approached 9:00 I thought I entered another universe or something. When the first animation of DBSuper showed up a few minutes later tears came into my eyes and I felt like an overly enthusiastic little kid for the first time at this degree ever since... I can't even recall. All the time throughout the episode I felt like I was part of a chunk of the world of hardcore DBZ fans just like me who were feeling just the same way I was at the same time, watching the same enormously significant event at the exact same time.
It was really quite an experience. I guess from now on the sensation won't be as strong and it will gradually become one more weekly special but recurrent event in my life I'll be following every 1am on Sundays as the episodes keep piling up, but the excitement over the unknown material, stories, characters and events will compensate for that in the medium/long-term.
To sum it all up, I think that given the settings and circumstances, I can't think of any other way they could have possibly started the series with this first episode in a better way than they did, and that includes not only the episode events themselves, but the opening, closing, preview of the second episode, music, atmosphere, animation, everything. I'm entirely confident that all of our extremely positive reviews so far are not a consequence of the fact that it's just a new series after 18 years. Sure, after a long period of creative inactivity we've had Kai, the 2008 movie, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as new material, but this time around we're talking about a series of episodes, which is an entirely different concept.
What a wonderful experience. I'm glad I felt that I was sharing it with a lot of folks all around the world at the same time. I still get overly hyped when I recall those minutes before the episode aired and when it finally started.
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Everything about this episode was great.. I love "Slice of Life" Dragon Ball. And I think what makes it better or atleast more tolerable is that we all ready know what the climax is going to be for the most part.. So this new build up should work out pretty well.
I hope they throw us some curve balls in the BoG and F arcs, for instance I would love it if instead of it just being Beerus going to Earth it is both Beerus and Champa and then Goku and Vegeta both become gods to fight them.
And throw Abo, Cado and their fusion Aka into the F arc to fight Goten, Trunks and Gotenks.
The fact that Beerus is awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later is obviously the catalyst for the need to introduce Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God in a different setting. As a result of that, not only BoG and FnF will become "non-canon", much in the same way the previous movies and GT have to be looked at, but also the 2008 special, hence I highly doubt we'll even ever hear about Abo, Kado or Tarble in DBSuper.
I think that, unlike Beerus and Whis, they see Tarble lacking the potential to become and interesting character.
The way to achieve Super Saiya-jin God will need to be different from what we've seen in BoG as well, taking into account the fact that Pan hasn't even been thought of, let alone conceived. And then we'll move on to the Fukkatsu no F arc, and I'm pretty hyped about that too, as we'll - most likely - get to see, beyond what we've seen in the movie, Goku and Vegeta's decision to train with Whis, Freeza training and Goku and Vegeta somehow achieving the stage of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
Z shouldn't have ended the way it did, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai 10 years later and the introduction of Uub, as whatever happens during the arcs in DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and the picture doesn't really fit. By the time of Uub's appearance and that last Tenkaichi Budokai, there's nothing to indicate that Goku and Vegeta have attained the stages of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, or that they have been dealing with Beerus, Whis, Champa, Champa's attendant and whatever new characters will be introduced in the 6th Universe arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
So what would you guys like for Goku's outfit when they go to Universe 6? His BoG outfit, his F outfit, his EoZ outfit or something completely new? I was fiddling with the Extreme Butoden sprites and his F outfit with EoZ(anime) colors looks really good and I'd be totally down for that.
Image
Between those, I honestly would prefer the BoG outfit. Goku's outfit, as well as Vegeta's, in Fukkatsu no F aren't as appealing to me as their already known ones. As for the outfit worn in the last Tenkaichi Budokai, I've never been a real fan, especially due to the color scheme. In both Fukkatsu no F and in EoZ Goku's outfit makes him look too relaxed, unlike Vegeta, whose outfits make him appear always battle-ready. I'd rather see Goku maintaining his BoG outfit as it's the color scheme he has worn throughout the entirety of DB and DBZ with some minor exceptions, and the same goes for Gohan when he's fighting (although my personal favorite outfit as far as Gohan goes is his Cell Games outfit, with the cape on).
______________________________________________________________________________________
My theory is that whereas Super Saiya-jin God drastically increases the maximum power of a Saiya-jin, enables him to absorb energy, makes his Ki undetectable to non-gods, etc., Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is a complete mastery of the Super Saiya-jin God particular stage and achieved much in the same way any form of Super Saiya-jin is, which means it brings back to the Super Saiya-jin's natural thirst for battle, while I'm sure it still enables the Saiya-jin's Ki to be undetectable by non-gods.
Regarding Super Saiya-jin God, it's said by Beerus himself that Goku's talents for fighting somehow enabled him to "assimilate" that level of power into himself, so after first turning SSG, even if he wasn't physically in the stage, he basically had all the powers and characteristics of Super Saiya-jin God. We saw him in these circumstances when fighting Beerus both in his base form and Super Saiya-jin form and while training with Whis and fighting Freeza in Fukkatsu no F. At that point even if Goku doesn't actually undergo the physical transformation into Super Saiya-jin God, he (and Vegeta, who must have achieved SSJG as well at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F) has all the characteristics of the SSJG stage, namely the massive power increase, ability to sense godly Ki, etc.
We've already seen Goku going through the process of achieving Super Saiya-jin God in BoG (although the way to achieve it in DBSuper will necessarily be different), but one of the things that happened in between BoG and Fukkatsu no F that I'd like DBSuper to show is how exactly Goku and Vegeta eventually realize there is a further stage/evolution from Super Saiya-jin God and achieve Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
I love Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin when the aura is flaming, but I don't think it looks too good when there's no aura. For example, when Vegeta is about to finish Freeza off, the blue color on his air somehow doesn't look too right, but that's just the color they went for. They could have chosen to have no recoloring at all, but in the end the entire thing about transforming into any stage of Super Saiya-jin is a physical transformation which includes a recoloring of the Saiya-jin's body-hair. Nobody ever complained about having the Saiya-jin turn golden during/as a consequence of a transformation into any stage of Super Saiya-jin, so the recoloring shouldn't be such a problem.
I read some of you discussing Super Saiya-jin 2. It's basically the first real stage of Super Saiya-jin beyond the "regular" Super Saiya-jin. The first Super Saiya-jin stage had a total of four different sub-types: normal Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Full Power. Super Saiya-jin 2 adds little change to the Super Saiya-jin's appearance, but the power increase is massive and it looked fantastic on teen Gohan when he thrashed Cell at the Cell Games. We could argue that Super Saiya-jin 2 is the real follow-up to the first, regular Super Saiya-jin stage, and the only or first one that TRULY "goes beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin", as Goku, Mirai no Trunks and Vegeta so frequently comment during the Cell arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
I don't mind a new way to ssjg as long as it gets to hang around for a while and Gokû gets to learn and show off any fun form unique powers like that one he never figured out at the end of BOG.
I don't mind if they change the BoG ritual, but I like the aspect of teamwork/community it introduced, that it is not attainable just through training -- I hope they don't change that, even if they make it so it only needs 4 people or something. He can then later incorporate that new power and make it his own through training, but I liked the idea in BoG that there are things they couldn't do without collaborating.
The whole background of the Saiya-jin ritual explained by Shenlong in Battle of Gods was intended both to put the Saiya-jin as a race in a different light (as in, not as naturally violent and evil as they're portrayed in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs), namely by introducing the concept of "good-hearted" or "pure-hearted" Saiya-jins on Planet Vegeta, and also to precisely turn a new SSJ transformation into something that could only be achieved with the help of others, which contrasts with the well-known ways of reaching other levels of Super Saiya-jin (by an explosion of anger, in the "regular" Super Saiya-jin's case, by training, in the cases of Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, by completely mastering all aspects of the Super Saiya-jin state, in the case of Super Saiya-jin Full Power, by another explosion of anger and/or through rigorous training and natural abilities and talents in the case of Super Saiya-jin 2, and through immense training and latent fighting abilities in the case of Super Saiya-jin 3).
The concept of being able to reach a particular stage only with the help of others might be interesting or even touching and emotional to some, however Goku himself states more than once that he isn't quite pleased with the fact that he couldn't attain the stage by himself in BoG, although he eventually manages to reach it by himself afterwards (whether by undergoing the actual physical transformation or by - as pointed out by Beerus himself - "absorbing" that stage into him, enabling him to have the power and abilities of the SSJG state even in his base form).
The fact that Goku is at first far from pleased with the fact he couldn't get to the SSG stage by himself alone only goes to show, or rather confirm, that he's quite proud himself. Vegeta may be all about pride, but Goku, as a pure Saiya-jin and fighting maniac, also has his fair dose of pride himself.
I've never seen Super Saiya-jin God (or Super Saiya-jin 4, in GT, for that matter) as part of a direct sequence of SSJ transformations and stages, but rather separate stage(s) that can only be achieved through some special method. Since the events in BoG and Fukkatsu no F are going to be, or have already been indeed basically made "non-canon" and there's no way they can use the exact same procedure for Goku (and Vegeta) to reach SSJG, I'm quite curious and hyped to see what they came up with as the method to reach it. Later on, as far as SSJGSSJ is concerned, I assume both Goku and Vegeta just realize at some point that they can upgrade the SSJG stage by completely mastering its characteristics and adding the natural and latent fighting and violent aspects of a Super Saiya-jin transformation, while still keeping the advantages of the SSG stage, namely the ability to sense godly Ki and the massive increase in power. Ever since I was first introduced to the concept of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin I thought of it as an upgrade to Super Saiya-jin God, keeping all of the latter's advantages and being slightly stronger as far as sheer destructive power is concerned.
If they had kept both Bog and Fukkatsu no F as canon direct continuations of the main timeline of Z, then at some point Vegeta would have had to reach the Super Saiya-jin God stage just like Goku did before he (and Goku) could attain the state of SSJGSSJ. If they had gone that road, and they didn't, whether we like or not, it would be extremely interesting to see both the process of Vegeta turning SSJG through the ritual, Vegeta "absorbing" the state just like Goku did in BoG and then Goku and Vegeta's decision to go and train with Whis. By the time of the events of Fukkatsu no F, Vegeta is basically finally at the same exact level of power as Goku both in his base form (when he fights Whis both he and Goku are in their base forms but have all the abilities of the SSJG stage) and in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin state.
I guess none of this really matters now, as, although Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin have been and will be introduced in DBSuper, they have been and will be introduced in different settings and circumstances, and at a different, earlier time.
I'm actually still in the process of "deleting" the events of BoG and Fukkatsu no F and "turning" them into "non-canon" stuff just like the other movies and GT need to be looked at. It's not easy, as the stories were quite phenomenal, especially BoG's, and it took me some time to "assimilate" them as direct canon continuations of the events of the Majin Buu arc in Z in the 10 year gap between Kid Buu's defeat and the last 3 episodes of Z (Tenkaichi Budokai and introduction of Uub). Toriyama didn't really need to retcon BoG or Fukkatsu no F at all, but this has been thoroughly discussed previously and the best conclusion we can get to is that he did so so that we could properly explore and expand Beerus' and Whis' backgrounds, as well as the entire process of the transformation into Super Saiya-jin God, with more time. He definitely wanted to turn the main elements from BoG and Fukkatsu no F into differently-told entire arcs covering a number of episodes without any sort of time restraints typical of movies.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
I mean, they could also just get much more powerful in SSGSS. There's a world of variation within one form (Namek SSJ Goku vs. Cell Games SSJ Goku; adult SSJ2 Gohan vs. Majin Vegeta).
Goku as a Super Saiya-jin on Namek against Freeza, the first time we were introduced to the concept of any form of SSJ (besides Vegeta's mentions about it earlier in the arc), is much, much weaker than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin Full Power at the Cell Games against Cell. There was an enormous amount of instances of fighters surpassing each other's powers throughout the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, a new, stronger fighter is introduced almost in every 5 episodes on average during the entire saga, things got quite hectic on that department, as they in fact did in the Freeza and Majin Buu arcs. That's one of the major points of DBZ: to have a new villain introduced with a level of power surpassing that of previous enemies, and the need to attain new stages and overcome their limits so they can keep up and keep surpassing both themselves and the others on a constant basis. Adult Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan might be slightly weaker than teen SSJ2 Gohan, but he's still not that much weaker than Majin Vegeta, who's basically exactly on par with Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku when they fight early in the Majin Buu arc. Piccolo himself struggles to compare Majin Vegeta's strength to that of SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games when Vegeta is beating the shit out of Majin Buu, although he ends up conceding that Vegeta is even beyond Gohan when he thrashed Cell.
The potential for developments and reaching of new stages in the Saiya-jin race might just be virtually limitless. While I've never regarded Super Saiya-jin God or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (or Super Saiya-jin 4 in GT, for that matter) as direct follow-ups of all the other previous Super Saiya-jin stages, but rather separate states achieved through a different special method, we could argue that there might be and probably is room for limitless improvement in terms of power and new SSJ states even beyond Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. That's basically what they mean when they refer to the fighting-race Saiya-jin as battle maniacs capable of basically unbelievable feats, with seemingly no limits to how strong they can get and how much they can improve even when they're supposed or thought to have reached their final evolution.
Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek is slightly stronger than 100% Freeza, Mirai no Trunks is slightly stronger than that, SSJ Vegeta against #19 is slightly above that but weaker than #17 or #18. It took the achievement of a new SSJ sub-type state within the first Super Saiya-jin stage for the Saiya-jin to fight on par or above the Jinzouningen, Piccolo and Cell: Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, the stage Vegeta is when he fights Cell, who in his second form is much stronger than #17 or #18. Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Mirai no Trunks is even stronger than SSJ Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, but weaker than Cell in his perfect form. Goku and Gohan in their Super Saiya-jin Full Power stages at the Cell Games are close to Cell in his perfect form in terms of power, but Cell still has the upper hand; it took another transformation, the one which TRULY goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin" to kill Cell, Super Saiya-jin 2. Teen Gohan as a SSJ2 is much stronger than Cell in his perfect form, but slightly weaker than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2 when they fight in the Majin Buu arc, while both of them are weaker than any form of Majin Buu. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan are much stronger than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2, but still weaker than more than one form of Super Buu, who at his strongest could only be beaten by Vegitto, who at the time of his introduction was basically twice as strong as a Super Saiya-jin 3 or Ultimate Gohan and pretty much the strongest character of the entire series (even when compared to movie 12 Gogeta, who isn't even canon). After that, it took the likes of Beerus and Whis to surpass Vegitto, and I would place Super Saiya-jin God Goku in BoG (and DBSuper) in between Vegitto and Beerus. Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Vegeta are slight improvements in terms of destructive power when compared to Super Saiya-jin God, but they're still below Beerus and Whis and most likely Champa and his attendant.
This is a quite short version of the power increases and character surpassings as the sagas progressed, not anything even close to a detailed, full list of power levels by fighter. I have my own detailed version of that which is obviously subject to debate, and I've never shared it with anybody.
If at some point, most likely in the 6th Universe arc, we get to see new villains with a level of power similar or beyond Beerus and Whis, either they'll have to team up to defeat them or some new stage of Super Saiya-jin beyond SSJGSSJ will need to be attained. This is just speculation, we know literally nothing about the 6th Universe arc besides the fact that there will be a search for a new set of Dragon Balls, although, after the introduction of already-known characters such as Beerus, Whis and Freeza in his Golden form, I imagine Toriyama has prepared some sort of insanely powerful villain. If that happens, I hope we get to see major fights and dramatic turns of events with really messed-up psychotic villains such as what we had in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, the Majin Buu arcs.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I don't mean this to turn into a power level debate, but here's a basic and not too detailed list of power increases including only Super Saiya-jin stages and the respective time at which they were present and against whom they fought at each stage, along with the arc in which it was first shown or attained.
From weakest to strongest:
1- Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs 100% Freeza on Namek - Freeza arc)
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goten (Majin Buu arc)
3 - Super Saiya-jin Chibi Trunks (Majin Buu arc)
4 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan (at the RoSat while training with Goku - Cell arc)
5 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Gohan (vs #17 and #18 in Trunks' timeline - Jinzouningen arc)
6 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks (vs King Cold and Freeza - Jinzouningen arc)
7 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (when he comes back to Earth and meets Mirai no Trunks - Jinzouningen arc)
8 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs #19 - Jinzouningen arc)
9 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (vs #19 and #18 - Jinzouningen arc)
10 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks (vs Cell in his second form - Cell arc)
11 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta (vs Cell - Cell arc)
12 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Trunks (vs Cell in his perfect form - Cell arc)
13 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan (at the Cell Games - Cell arc)
14 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku (vs perfect Cell - Cell arc)
15 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks (vs Majin Buu - Majin Buu arc)
16 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan (vs Dabura and Majin Buu - Majin Buu arc)
17 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan (vs Cell - Cell arc)
18 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (after becoming Majin Vegeta and against Goku in the early Majin Buu arc and against Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
19 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku (vs Vegeta in the early Majin Buu arc and against Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
20 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks (vs Super Buu - Majin Buu arc)
21 - Ultimate Gohan (vs Super Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
22 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (vs Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
23 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with the influx of power from all the others during the first attempt at becoming Super Saiya-jin God in BoG - Battle of Gods)
24 - Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (vs Super Buu - Majin Buu arc)
25 - Base Vegeta (against Whis with "assimilated" power of SSJG - Fukkatsu no F)
26 - Base Goku (against Beerus and Whis with "assimilated" power of SSJG - Battle of Gods)
27 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku (vs Beerus - Battle of Gods)
28 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (vs Golden Freeza - Fukkatsu no F)
29 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs Golden Freeza - Fukkatsu no F)
Not counting the movies or GT, of course. Although BoG and Fukkatsu no F will be or have already been indeed become "non-canon", I chose to include them and the respective Super Saiya-jin states shown there, also and especially due to the fact that we'll eventually see them in the BoG and Fukkatsu no F arcs within DBSuper itself.
And it's quite reductive to reduce this list to Super Saiya-jin states and characters only, but I'm kind of interested and amused at what your reaction and response to this will be. Even restricting this to Super Saiya-jin-only stages and fighters, this list can easily be altered here and there.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
By setting it before Videl is pregnant, Super's gotta do its own thing with ssjg. Be it dropping the number of required saiyajin down by one, by roping in Tarble somehow to act as the 6th conduit, or by going deeper and completely changing how ssjg's obtained. The way Super's setting things up nothing's off the table until proven/disproven.
They could have chosen not to retcon BoG and Fukkatsu no F and instead start the series either at this point and then do a time-skip to BoG and then another one to Fukkatsu no F (and showing the stuff we know would have happened in between), or start the series right after Fukkatsu no F, with the immediate introduction of the 6th Universe arc, which is truly the absolutely new material to which we've never been exposed at any level before anywhere and about which we know basically nothing at this point beyond the fact that there will be new versions of Dragon Balls involved.
Having Beerus awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later is the catalyst for the absolute need to remove the events of BoG from the main storyline as a direct canon continuation of Z, for more than one obvious reason. Pan hasn't even been thought of at this point, let alone conceived. Both BoG and Fukkatsu no F will from now on need to be looked at as "non-canon" side-stories, pretty much the same way the other 13 movies and GT need to be looked at.
The same goes for the 2008 Jump special, it will basically be "erased" from the main timeline, which means they'll only choose to bring back Tarble if they want to, but, unlike Beerus or Whis, I believe they fail to see in Tarble the potential to become an interesting character, although, in fact, he doesn't in fact lack that much; Toriyama may have thought that the sudden introduction of Vegeta's brother, who nobody ever heard of, mentioned once or even knew existed throughout the entire Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs was done too hastily. On top of all of these reasons, there are many mentions and flashbacks during all the arcs throughout DBZ of the events regarding the Saiya-jin race before, during and after its genocide, and we're always told there were only 4 surviving Saiya-jin (Vegeta, Kakarotto, Nappa and Raditz). Why would Raditz, for example, choose to ignore Tarble as a surviving Saiya-jin, or why would Vegeta never even mention he had a living brother? Because of shame due to his inability to be a strong fighter?
Anyway, since they recognized the potential of Beerus and Whis as characters and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and/or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin as new stages for Goku and Vegeta to be able to catch up with these new insanely powerful fighters, I'm quite hyped to see exactly how much the settings and circumstances have changed in terms of how these events will now take place.
Regarding the way to achieve SSJG, I highly doubt for some reason that one of the things they'll maintain when compared to BoG is or will be the ritual to achieve the Super Saiya-jin God stage, even if it would be a version of the ritual with a smaller number of Saiya-jin needed. The ritual we saw in BoG had two main reasons to be introduced: one, to make a link to the last 3 episodes of DBZ and bring Pan into the picture, and two, to put the Saiya-jin race in a different light when compared to the descriptions of a battle-thirsty, fighting race with violent evil tendencies we were given in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, namely with the introduction of the concept of "pure-hearted" or "good-hearted" Saiya-jin Planet Vegeta.
The constant references to Freeza, the Saiya-jin race, Planet Vegeta, etc. throughout the series is proof enough that the background of the entire Saiya-jin-Freeza relationship and the events leading up to the genocide of the Saiya-jin and the aftermath is probably the best storyline in Z. Besides, the Freeza arc (with the Saiya-jin and Namek sagas leading up to it) was so absolutely epic and Freeza was - and is - such a charismatic villain that even in the last new material in recent years - the 2008 special (Freeza and even the Ginyu Tokusentai are mentioned, Abo and Kado are former elite members of Freeza's army), Episode of Bardock (needless to even expand on this one, the main villain is both Freeza himself in the beginning and an ancestor of the Freeza family throughout the movie), Battle of Gods (the defeat of Freeza and the destruction of Planet Vegeta are mentioned several times right at the start of the movie, and even King Vegeta is shown) and Fukkatsu no F (the entire movie is dedicated to the revival of Freeza himself, that's how charismatic he is, he needed an entire movie even partially named after him) - there are not only constant references to Freeza and his army but, in fact, reappearances of Freeza himself. It probably goes to show that the Freeza arc was probably the most DBZ-defining and memorable saga in DB and DBZ not only for a large chunk of hardcore DBZ fans but also to many of the authors involved in the creation of new animated material for DBZ in these last years. You don't really see 5% as much in terms of references to the Jinzouningen/Cell arc as you do regarding the Saiya-jin/Namek/Freeza arc and its background, the genocide of the Saiya-jin, either in the Majin Buu arc or in the post-Majin Buu new material we've been given in the last years with the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Makai wrote:
Can they not just place the Jump Special a few months before Super? It already seems like it could easily fit between Buu and Super.
They could theoretically retell the story of Tarble, Abo and Kado and reintroduce them in the series in a different setting and circumstances when compared to what we saw in the special itself, like they'll do with BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and if they chose to do so it would indeed need to be at a different time, since the 2008 movie "happened" 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. However, I doubt they see in Tarble, Abo or Kado the potential to make for an interesting adding to the series' timeline (in Tarble's case, for the reasons I mentioned before). They didn't really put too much effort as far as story-telling and character background goes in the 2008 movie, it was made for entirely different reasons, but the greatest purpose it served was to reopen the curtain for completely new Dragonball visual material after 11 years of inactivity. Up until recently and before we got to know the timing at which each arc within DBSuper is going to take place, the 2008 special was also considered to be canon and a direct continuation of the Majin Buu arc in Z, but now, just like BoG and Fukkatsu no F, it will be "erased" as non-canon material and will need to be seen as a side-story just like the 13 movies of Z or GT.
The sheer fact that they chose Beerus to be awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later pretty much changes everything surrounding the events of the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F. As I said before, they could have chosen not to place Beerus' awakening at this timing and just keep the story's timeline the way it was after BoG and Fukkatsu no F, with the following sequence of events: Majin Buu arc - 2 years - 2008 special - 2 years - Battle of Gods - a few months - Fukkatsu no F - 5 years - introduction of Uub; but instead in DBSuper we'll most likely get: Majin Buu arc - 6 months - first episodes of DBSuper - Beerus/Whis/Champa/Champa's attendant arc - Fukkatsu no F arc - exploration of the 6th Universe arc - 5 years - introduction of Uub. I'm just speculating regarding the timeline placement of the exploration of the 6th Universe, it could theoretically even be placed at a later stage, closer to the introduction of Uub, or even - theoretically - after the last episodes of DBZ, but I believe every event and arc within DBSuper at least up until after the exploration of the 6th Universe will take place many years before the introduction of Uub in those last 3 episodes of DBZ.
I highly doubt they'll pick up on any of the events and characters introduced in the 2008 special, unlike BoG and Fukkatsu no F, which were given careful thought and are basically going to be retold at a different time and setting and be given their own arcs within DBSuper to do so. Characters like Beerus and Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin are just too phenomenal and have too much potential to just be tossed away.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
By setting it before Videl is pregnant, Super's gotta do its own thing with ssjg. Be it dropping the number of required saiyajin down by one, by roping in Tarble somehow to act as the 6th conduit, or by going deeper and completely changing how ssjg's obtained. The way Super's setting things up nothing's off the table until proven/disproven.
Why would they have to change the story because of that?
Because the way to reach the Super Saiya-jin God stage we saw in Battle of Gods was by undergoing the ritual explained by Shenlong, which means Pan needs to be already in existence for it to work, and since DBSuper starts off with Beerus already awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later like in BoG, and since Pan hasn't even been thought of 6 months after the Majin Buu arc, let alone conceived, the same exact ritual can't take place. They could either go for a change in the ritual, by diminishing the number of Saiya-jin needed or some other modification, or they could go for a way to achieve SSJG through another method, namely by training and/or latent fighting abilities, which Goku (and Vegeta) have shown plenty of times throughout DBZ they possess. But undergoing the same ritual is absolutely out of the question.
______________________________________________________________________________________
[quote="Captain Space"][quote="GokuRules987"]I personally dont see why Super should go for more than 100 episodes because for one reason, i highly doubt the series will ever surpass DBZ because Toriyama's hardcore character designing days are simply over, all they're doing now is just milking the franchise and throwing some shitty comedy into it.
I mean after Battle of gods came out everyone was saying OMG this is going to be the first canon DBZ movie with Toriyama heavily involved as it was the continuation of the original manga. But now what do we get now? Same exact thing that happens to be in a different timeline with new rewritten antagonists. I mean where is the whole mystic excitement that GT was able to bring us? I have nothing to look forward here because all Toriyama is doing here is pulling the series back into the movies and changing certain things here and there. Just more laziness from him.
And I dont even know how i feel about the whole traveling to a different universe thing in search for super dragon balls. This might just end up being Namek saga 2.0 with some powerful new villain who happens to end up also searching for those super dragon balls aswel. Doesn't Toriyama understand that what made DBZ so successful is the originally and uniqueness of his story? You cant just ring that same bell twice and think that the same amount of people who looked at you once will look at you again and same as a crying wolf.[/quote]
And then there are those of us who enjoyed the comedy, didn't get 'mystic excitement' from GT and like the new character designs...[/quote]
Exactly. There simply is no way we can even compare DBSuper, or any of the recent material we got in the last few years, to GT. GT was a set of hastily-made-up quick stories invented right after everyone was already pretty much at a loss for ideas after so much creativeness for all the continuous DBZ arcs, plus it got partially or totally rid of fundamental characters with fantastic backgrounds, had a number of issues regarding power levels, Toriyama wasn't involved, etc. I mean, do we even have to point out, identify or list the number of things that went wrong with GT yet again? It's been done multiple times over the years. I was quite relieved they got "rid" of it and Toriyama himself said it was "non-canon" and more like a side-story, pretty much in the same way the 13 movies of DBZ were. I could finally wipe out GT from the series' main timeline and basically ignore it.
Of course, we can't expect DBSuper and any of the events and stories told in its arcs to be as bloody, violent or dramatic as they were in the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, considering the partially new target audience it's directed to and the huge change everything works today when compared to the 80's and 90's, but the sheer fact Toriyama is involved pretty much assures me that most details will be given significant thought and the degree of creativeness won't have dropped that much when compared to what he came up with in the best of DB and DBZ.
It basically gets down to this: DBSuper will never be as good as DB and DBZ were at the height of their intricate plots, dramatic settings and development of fantastic characters and backgrounds, but it most certainly won't be as lacking and disappointing (to avoid using other, stronger adjectives) as GT was.
In my view, the comparison doesn't even make sense, except for the mere fact that both DBSuper and GT (at the time the latter was made, not anymore) happen after the last major arc in DBZ, or due to the fact that the concept of a new set of Dragon Balls will be introduced. Other than that, I think we should all just put GT in its place, lock it there and instead focus on DBSuper.
I'm hyped about pretty much all aspects of the series, but obviously the 6th Universe arc is the one I'm most looking forward to, as we'll no doubt be introduced to some new insanely powerful villain or antagonist, the tone of the series will perhaps get a little bit more serious and we're talking TRULY entirely new material, unlike the BoG and Fukkatsu no F arcs, which contain elements we've been already introduced to in the movies, although in different circumstances and at a different timing (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, Golden Freeza).
______________________________________________________________________________________
Doctor. wrote:
It's not out of the question. A timeskip would fix all of those problems. Now of course it's unlikely they will do a timeskip so soon, and it'd be a stupid decision if they chose to; but I'm just saying it's not 100% impossible.
Well, yes, theoretically anything is possible and setting events up at different timings has the potential to solve virtually any problem, and in this case they could have Pan's time of conception retconned as well (which would mean that by the last 3 episodes of DBZ Pan would be much older, which would mean yet another retcon), but for some reason I believe that the "only" retcons we'll see as far as placing events in different circumstances and at a different timing goes will be the introduction of Beerus and Whis and the achievement of Goku of the stage of Super Saiya-jin God. Even the events of Fukkatsu no F don't theoretically need to be placed at a different timing when compared to what we saw in the movie, but we can only speculate. There really is no way to know when exactly each event and arc in DBSuper will take place until we actually get to see it.
I also think that they won't go for a timeskip at this early stage (from 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu to 4 years later, as in, at the timing of the events of BoG, by which time Pan already "exists").
______________________________________________________________________________________
Birusu16 wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
I wonder what planet both beerus and whis are going to?
I'm still hoping they go to the planet we saw in the first chapter. If not then the scene we saw in the first episode was likely the same scene we saw in chapter 1 with just a different take.
Barunks wrote:
Has there ever actually been official confirmation of how strong blue super saiyan is compared with SSG, Beerus, Whis, or SS4 or is everyone still speculating based upon their biases?
We can only speculate at this point, and maybe we'll never be entirely sure at all even after we get to see the expanded events in the BoG and Fukkatsu no F arcs in DBSuper, but I believe Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is merely a slight improvement both Goku and Vegeta came up with when compared to plain Super Saiya-jin God, by mastering all aspects of the latter, while keeping all of its advantages (ability to sense godly Ki, massive increase in power, ability to make non-gods unable to sense their Ki) and inducing the typical fighting and violent tendencies of the Super Saiya-jin state into the stage. SSGSSJ might be a little messed up and a mix of circumstances - as Goku himself says to Freeza in Fukkatsu no F, "it's a little complex and hard to explain" - but, anyway, that's the best theory I can come up with. On another note, some fans weren't happy with the way it looked, but in my particular case I prefer it to the way SSJG looked on Goku in BoG and would look on Vegeta (on Vegeta it would even be worse, he would cease looking as menacing and serious as he always does). However, I prefer it to plain SSJG only when the aura is flaming, I wasn't too happy when I first saw Goku and Vegeta as SSJGSSJ, for example when Vegeta is about to finish Freeza off. That colour in his hair just didn't seem right for some reason to me.
As for the power levels of Golden Freeza, Beerus, Whis, SSJG Goku, SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta, I believe the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin state makes the fighter slightly stronger than Super Saiya-jin God, but it's still not enough for Beerus or Whis. Vegeta AND Goku working together as SSJGSSJ would have a chance against Beerus, as Whis himself states, but only because there would be 2 against 1. On their own, neither would be able to beat Beerus even as SSJGSSJ, let alone Whis. We're not quite sure about the gap there is in power between Beerus and Whis, yet again we can only speculate, so I'm not even going to go that road, except for stating the obvious: in BoG it's stated by Beerus (and assumed by Goku) that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, as he's his teacher. What I was mostly surprised about in any of the two movies as far as new powers and stages goes was the level achieved by Freeza. We're talking about a fighter who had been overwhelmed in power as early as the Freeza arc itself; he didn't stand a chance against Mirai no Trunks, and Mirai no Trunks didn't stand a chance against #17 or #18, while these didn't stand a chance against Cell, and Cell in his second form didn't stand a chance against Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, etc., etc. Freeza's level of power was pretty much ridiculous when compared to an enormous number of fighters in many stages throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs - Goku even disappointingly refers to it as "in hindsight, not much of a challenge" in the 2008 special. Nonetheless, he managed to skip all of these humongous increments in power by so many characters in such a short time and by the time he shows up on Earth in Fukkatsu no F he's right on top of the list again, close to or on par with the likes of SSJGSSJ Goku, SSJGSSJ Vegeta, Beerus and Whis. His power level skyrocketed from what it was before in a way that it can be seen by some as a poor way to have him become a serious menace again after so much time and hard to believe and swallow. He must be indeed a prodigy and must also have trained through special methods to increase his power by this huge volume. We'll definitely be able to expand a little more on how exactly he managed to increase his power by this much in the Fukkatsu no F arc in DBSuper. At least I really hope so.
Hence, my list as far as the new characters and stages from BoG and Fukkatsu no F goes would be as follows (from strongest to weakest, and I'm going to leave Champa and his attendant out of it as we really have no idea at this point where they stand as far as power level goes, though we can conceive our own theories regarding that matter):
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
7 - Base Goku after having "absorbed" the abilities of SSJG
8 - Base Vegeta after having absorbed the abilities of SSJG
9 - Freeza in his fourth form after undergoing training
10 - Freeza in his first form after undergoing training (remember, he knocked Ultimate Gohan out with a single punch in this stage, although we could theoretically attribute this to Gohan's having let his guard down or some variation of this)
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Hence, my list as far as the new characters and stages from BoG and Fukkatsu no F goes would be as follows (from strongest to weakest, and I'm going to leave Champa and his attendant out of it as we really have no idea at this point where they stand as far as power level goes, though we can conceive our own theories regarding that matter):
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
7 - Base Goku after having "absorbed" the abilities of SSJG
8 - Base Vegeta after having absorbed the abilities of SSJG
9 - Freeza in his fourth form after undergoing training
10 - Freeza in his first form after undergoing training (remember, he knocked Ultimate Gohan out with a single punch in this stage, although we could theoretically attribute this to Gohan's having let his guard down or some variation of this)
This is a misconception I see a lot, but in the movie Golden Freeza was actually stronger than Goku until his power drained too much.
You're right. At some point in the restart of the fight between Freeza and Goku, just after Freeza turned into his Golden Freeza form, he manages to overcome Super Saiya-jin God Goku here and there, and Goku goes as far as saying that "he's losing somewhat". Since Vegeta's power in his SSJGSSJ stage is on par with Goku's in the same state, we can assume the result would be the same, Golden Freeza would be able to take the upper hand for some time. I deliberately chose to put Golden Freeza below both SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta both because of his inability to maintain that initial level of power he displayed when he fought SSJGSSJ Goku for the first few minutes and especially because I always had the theory that Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin was holding back a bit; all the way throughout Fukkatsu no F, even after witnessing Golden Freeza's power, he just comes out as way too relaxed and failing to recognize Freeza as a real menace, so it could be that all the time during the fight he wasn't really putting everything he had into it. It's just a theory of my own, it could be totally wrong.
______________________________________________________________________________________
DoomieDoomie911 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
But didn't Toriyama (or the new Super guide, can't tell which one) say it begins 6 months after Boo?
Kanzenshuu Dragon Ball Super Episode Guide wrote:
The series was announced to, “…follow the aftermath of Goku’s fierce battle with Majin Buu, as he attempts to maintain earth’s fragile peace.” It was later confirmed that the series is set slightly after the showdown with Majin Buu and will link up with the franchise’s most recent movies, Battle of Gods and Revival of “F”. The series’ story begins six months following the defeat of Majin Buu as a prequel to Battle of Gods, with Son Goku working as a farmer prior to heading off to train with Kaio as seen at the beginning of the movie and following Beerus waking up to search for the Super Saiyan God.
It could be that these first episodes of DBSuper will be the only ones placed 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu, and that they'll do a time skip to 4 years later and have Goku and the others meet Beerus and Whis at the same timing as we've seen in BoG, although certain events within or surrounding BoG would necessarily need to be erased (just for example, Goku's fight against Beerus as a Super Saiya-jin 3 on Kaiou-sama's planet, Beerus' and Whis' struggle to find out who or what exactly SSJG is, if anything at all, and Beerus only waking up at that time and talking about his dream and the Oracle Fish's premonition).
This potential time skip - which I honestly don't think will happen - would enable BoG to be seen as "almost canon", since the only change between the events of the movie and the arc within DBSuper would be the fact that Beerus was already awake 6 months after the Majin Buu arc instead of waking up 4 years later and the fact that he already knew about the concept of Super Saiya-jin God instead of having dreamed about it and later looking for him/the way for a Saiya-jin to reach that stage by asking Shenlong, all the time not even being sure if it was just a stupid dream or not and whether that fighter/stage existed or not.
Hell, if that time skip actually happened, even the 2008 special could potentially be maintained as a canon continuation of the timeline.
The link between the introduction of Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and the Fukkatsu no F arc will one way or the other be much easier to make, though, thankfully.
______________________________________________________________________________________
DragonBoxZTheMovies wrote:
Just wondering, do you guys think Super's existence has had any impact on whether we get more movies in future? Now that Toei has a constant source of new DB material that Toriyama is also involved in, is all of the focus going to be on Super over the next few years? Or do you think we'll still be seeing more movies that tie in with the new series in some way?
Yet again we can only speculate on how long (in terms of number of episodes) DBSuper is going to run, but if it runs nearly as long as DBZ did I'm sure that eventually we'll get movie "side-stories" much in the same way we got them in the 4 DB movie,s the 13 DBZ movies and GT. However, as far as those 13 movies go, most of them have direct references to major events or characters mentioned in the canon series' timeline and storyline, so if they do happen at some point in the future - during or after DBSuper's run - I'm pretty positive that we'll get mentions to Beerus, Whis, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God, Freeza, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin and whatever new characters/villains/antagonists we'll get to see in the introduction of the 6th Universe arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Herms wrote:
Ha! It says the reason Vegeta and family are going to this amusement park is because of that time when Vegeta and Trunks were training together, and Vegeta promised to take Trunks to an amusement park if he managed to hit his face. Was that confirmed already? I know I didn't make that connection at all until now.
In the printing we see along with the concept arc we clearly get to see the episode early in the Majin Buu arc when Vegeta is training in the gravity room along with Trunks for the upcoming Tenkaichi Budokai that precedes the saga. It's really a relief to have it confirmed that they managed to remember that and link up the events of Vegeta's family trip in episode 2 of DBSuper to something uttered by a character 18/19 years ago.
I've always automatically connected this promise by Vegeta as a family man/father figure to his son as the one made by Goku to Gohan to take him fishing in the Saiya-jin saga in episode 29 of DBZ before he goes off to fight Vegeta, which eventually he ended up keeping as well (although he didn't even remember it by the time he actually keeps it) during those 10 days leading up to the Cell Games. Goku and Vegeta are pretty much compared to each other in virtually every single aspect, even when it comes to how they deal with and interact with their respective sons and families.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I know this is a long shot and more than pure speculation and more like wishful thinking, but just out of curiosity, if at some point in DBSuper they thought of reintroducing/bringing back some characters from the distant past of DB and DBZ, which one would you look forward to the most?
I personally would like both Raditz and Bardock to return, even if only for a brief period of time, also and especially due to the fact that they're members of Goku's family. I've always wondered what would be Goku's reaction to be face-to-face with his father, and the other way around. Goku would also probably get to accept Raditz as his brother by this point, instead of when he was first introduced in the first episodes of DBZ. Goku has a natural tendency to forgive his enemies, even the most fearful and hateful ones, provided that enough time has passed. Bardock did get his screen time and his "revenge" as a character with such great potential and excellent background in Episode of Bardock, but that's non-canon and the story was conceived mostly to, after all these years, have Bardock get his revenge if not on Freeza himself, then on someone from Freeza's family line. The sense of desperation we share with Bardock himself throughout his special was an issue we finally got resolved that way. Pretty much everyone is a Bardock fan and sympathizes with his "cause". For me personally, as a hardcore Vegeta fan, it's just like getting to see Vegeta beating the shit out of Freeza in Fukkatsu no F after being ridiculed, humiliated, beaten and killed by him in the Freeza arc, after years and years of abuse with the knowledge that it was Freeza who committed the genocide of his race, killed his father and had him under his rule as a puppet for over two decades. All these years later, we get to see Vegeta taking revenge for all of this by personally taking care of Freeza (I just wish he would have been the one to actually just kill him, which he was just about to do before Freeza decided to blow up the planet). I read somewhere earlier some of you discussing how Vegeta should or could, or that it would be a good idea, to have Vegeta get to kill Freeza in the Fukkatsu no F arc in DBSuper instead of Goku like it happened in the movie, but, yet again, I doubt it will happen. As far as solving the return of Freeza in a much more powerful stage in the Fukkatsu no F movie goes, they thought it would be the ideal thing to have BOTH Vegeta and Goku beat/kill Freeza, which in a way was exactly what happened. They very deliberately had Vegeta step in and also beat Freeza to a pulp before Goku got to actually kill Freeza, but Goku still "had" to be the one to finally kill Freeza and save the day. The going-back-in-time trick they came up for Whis to have was the way to get around the issues of having BOTH Goku AND Vegeta (finally) be the heroes this time around. Vegeta is and probably will always be "one step behind" Goku, or at most equal to or on par with him, which is why in Fukkatsu no F they thought that in the end it really had to be Goku to yet again deliver the final, decisive blow. Vegeta's evolution as a character throughout the arcs in DBZ has definitely earned him his place as a "hero" figure, but Goku has been the real protagonist and hero figure ever since he was introduced as a kid in the first episodes of DB and all the way throughout the entire series, except for that little small period of time in and slightly after the Cell Games arc in which it's actually Gohan who was the only one who could get things done and be his supposed "successor" both in terms of power and main protagonism in the series, which was a concept they went for after the Cell arc but just didn't work during the Majin Buu arc, much less after that.
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
Beerus-sama wrote:
Herms wrote:
Beerus: “I only slept 39 years this time. I want to look sharp.”
Does that means that these scenes with Beerus destroying planets from episodes 1 and 2 are not in the same time where Goku and company events are happening?
Maybe he just wants to be nice and fresh, maybe as soon as he woke up he went destroying planets and now wants to be clean and relaxed from a bath because he's still a little tired from not getting a long sleep.
I mean the Kaioshin scene from the end of episode 1 makes it clear that he's awake and has been destroying planets.
We can only speculate at this point until we get to see what actually happens when we see the episodes, but the most likely scenario is that the scenes from Beerus in that planet we saw in episode 1 of DBSuper were taking place at a different timing than the ones from Goku + Goten, Mr. Satan + Majin Buu, etc. (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu). The possibility of a time skip between these first smooth episodes of family interaction and the timing at which Beerus meets Goku and the others seems to be growing, although, from what we already know, one thing they'll definitely have to change is the whole setting in which Beerus (and indeed the others) will get to know/hear about the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, as by the time Beerus appears on Earth in DBSuper he already seems to know much more about the Saiya-jin, the Super Saiya-jin and the Super Saiya-jin God "legend" on Planet Vegeta, in contrast or when compared to what happens in BoG, where he's just almost clueless about it.
The time skip from the BoG arc and the Fukkatsu no F arc within DBSuper will be much easier to get around, no major issues there, although a lot of potential for expanding the storyline and get to see stuff we haven't seen in Fukkatsu no F (namely Freeza's training method, Vegeta reaching SSJG himself, Vegeta's and Goku's decision to go off training with Whis - I'd really like to have them give these events just a bit of screen time).
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
Re: screen time
We're only 1 episode in on Super; there's no saying Gokû won't get temp-sidelined here the way he did in Z. He hasn't really fully main-charactered since the 23rd tournament.
That said, I don't want any new main character replacement because I can't unsee it as someone making their OC fanfic dreams come true and I just can't bring myself to care about a replacement. I was disappointed enough having ssjg replaced by blueper. Replacing Gokû himself would make me drop the series.
Goku, beyond anyone else in any given time in the series, and Dragon Ball are pretty much synonyms. The only time all the way throughout all the arcs in DB and DBZ at which they really seemed to deliberately have someone else "replace" Goku as the main protagonist (on a permanent basis), or at least have that fighter be on par with him, was when Gohan surpassed him by becoming Super Saiya-jin 2 in the Cell Games saga, overcoming his (and everyone else's) level of power, being the one to (be able to) defeat that particular villain (Cell). Even the opening from the Majin Buu arc in DBZ reflects that, Gohan is shown pretty much as the intended "new Goku" (they even "killed" Goku back in the Cell Games to ensure this would go even more smoothly), but it just didn't work out and Goku was again the one not only to finish off Kid Buu and, in more recent events, achieve a level of power closer to the likes of Beerus and Whis. Even Vegeta has surpassed Gohan by Fukkatsu no F, and we need to remember that there are many instances in which Gohan is stronger than Vegeta, for example when he reaches his "Ultimate" form. Before DBSuper/Fukkatsu no F, Vegeta was still below Gohan's level of power, but Gohan lacks the same "always-training-to-get-stronger" fighting-maniac spirit both Goku and Vegeta possess, as pure Saiya-jins. They're clearly going for the setting in which Goku and Vegeta are the only "good guys" from the Z team - and everything we've been seeing lately in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper confirms it - that seem to be able to keep up with these new insanely powerful enemies, who go beyond even the strongest form of Super Buu or Super Vegitto.
I can't really see the need some fans have to have him "pass the torch" to someone else and let the "new generation" take over in terms of power/protagonism. Let it go, Goku will always be the main one, followed/seconded by, or, at most, ALONG with Vegeta. All the others will get their screen time, fighting time and proper character developments and interactions, and they most definitely should have, but in terms of power and protagonism we're down to Goku and Vegeta. They even had Vegeta reach new stages and overcome the degree of the gap in power between him and Gohan which was present at the time of the end of the Majin Buu arc, in order to fit the purpose of having him not only be the second-main protagonist after Goku, or along with Goku, in terms of power, by achieving SSJG and SSJGSSJ.
Gohan fans might be a little (or quite a lot) disappointed at the way they're treating Gohan in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper as a protagonist and/or fighter, even in terms of degree of power, but he had two chances to become the strongest Z fighter during DBZ (Cell Games and when he became Ultimate Gohan and thrashed Super Buu) and failed to reach new stages and get stronger and stronger even that that, which is partially what Dragonball is all about.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Herms wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:
sintzu wrote:
A new Q&A has been released :
http://www.db-z.com/dragon-ball-super-q ... ushi-kido/
Sorry if it's been posted already.
got an english version?
A bit quick, but here:
Q: Will Goku get stronger than SSGSS?
A: This is the #1 thing to look forward to in “DB Super”. I want him to get stronger, myself.
Q: Will a new Shenlong appear?
A: Things called “Super Dragon Balls” will appear!
Q: Where will the fights in “DB Super” take place?
A: This time Lord Beerus is appearing too, so the battles will expand out into the universe.
Q: Will Jaco from Revival of “F” appear?
A: Of course he will. All sorts of characters will play a part in “DB Super”.
Q: Will enemies Goku defeated in the past reappear?
A: I wonder. Personally, I hope they will (laughs).
Q: Will a new rival for Goku and the gang appear?
A: Yes. And there won’t just be one!
Q: About how strong will these new rivals be?
A: Roughly strong enough to be on par with Goku.
Q: Will the battle scenes power up too?
A: That’s right. Watch out for Goku’s fighting style as he grows stronger by training!
Q: Will there be scenes of Freeza training, which weren’t depicted in Revival of “F”?
A: No comment. Personally, I’m conflicted over whether or not I want to see that (laughs).
As for the first one, and going back to my own theory, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is already an improvement - even in terms of level of power, but also in other aspects - when compared to Super Saiya-jin God, but I'm sure that at some point in DBSuper, probably during the exploration of the 6th Universe arc, Goku (and perhaps Vegeta) will reach another, even stronger stage which will either be an improvement to SSJGSSJ itself or a replacement of it.
Regarding the degree of strength the new characters that will be introduced in DBSuper the series will have in the series (and this leaves out Beerus and Whis, whose level of power we're already pretty much aware of after BoG and Fukkatsu no F), there must be some insanely powerful villain (or rather, villains) later on after the Fukkatsu no F arc, at which time I hope things will get close to what we've seen throughout the second half of DB and the entirety of DBZ in terms of drama/fighting/psychotic arch-villains. I just wonder how they'll compare to Beerus and Whis themselves (and to Champa and his attendant as well, although, as far as these two go, I'd say they're almost or about as strong as their counterparts). Perhaps the only way to take down the new villains in the 6th Universe arc will be to have Beerus and/or Whis step in along with Goku and Vegeta, all of them working together at their strongest, to avoid some major cataclysm such as the destruction of the Universe(s). Wouldn't be the first we got to see team-work between the Z fighters and even between previous mortal rivals to take down a common enemy. The concept of Beerus cooperating to do something other than his job - destroying planets - is interesting, and actually we already got to see that in Fukkatsu no F, although he labels the experience of saving a planet rather than destroying it pretty "pathetic".
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
Have to agree...I love Beerus, he's the best antagonist DB has ever had, but having him have a hand in what was essentially Freeza's defining act of tyranny/destruction is pretty dumb.
If by "best antagonist" you mean he's the strongest, then sure (although Whis is actually stronger), and pretty much everyone - myself included - is a fan of him taking in account his character-power combo, but if you did a poll I'd bet you that Freeza would be "elected" as the most charismatic, psychotic, maniacal, genocidal, evil villain of all time in all of Dragonball. Hell, he's so charismatic they even "had" to bring him to life again in Fukkatsu no F - and hence, DBSuper - after all the time between Freeza's arc and the post-Majin Buu era, after numerous instances of cameos (Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin, getting beaten by Paiku-han right after the Cell Games, his appearance along the other past villains watching the fight between SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu in Hell, his appearance in movie 12, among others), and have him become somewhat a menace by reaching a degree of power close to/on par with the most recent stages and levels of fighting ability seen in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, not to mention the previous DBZ arcs (Jinzouningen, Cell, Majin Buu arcs), by which time his (previous) level of power was all but absolutely overwhelmed.
They needed to match his level of power to his degree of charisma. We can argue whether or not it was done the right way in Fukkatsu no F, but that was definitely their intention.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
If by "best antagonist" you mean he's the strongest, then sure (although Whis is actually stronger), and pretty much everyone - myself included - is a fan of him taking in account his character-power combo, but if you did a poll I'd bet you that Freeza would be "elected" as the most charismatic, psychotic, maniacal, genocidal, evil villain of all time in all of Dragonball. Hell, he's so charismatic they even "had" to bring him to life again in Fukkatsu no F - and hence, DBSuper - after all the time between Freeza's arc and the post-Majin Buu era, after numerous instances of cameos (Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin, getting beaten by Paiku-han right after the Cell Games, his appearance along the other past villains watching the fight between SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu in Hell, his appearance in movie 12, among others), and have him become somewhat a menace by reaching a degree of power close to/on par with the most recent stages and levels of fighting ability seen in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, not to mention the previous DBZ arcs (Jinzouningen, Cell, Majin Buu arcs), by which time his (previous) level of power was all but absolutely overwhelmed.
They needed to match his level of power to his degree of charisma. We can argue whether or not it was done the right way in Fukkatsu no F, but that was definitely their intention.
No, I meant best as in the best character. You're right, if you did a poll Freeza would probably win. But I'm not talking a popularity contest, I'm talking my opinion, and my favourite antagonist in terms of character and personality is Beerus.
I'd have a hard time myself choosing just one as my favourite antagonist. What I can definitely say is that my LEAST favorite villain is Majin Buu, in any of his forms (especially in his fat form, which is how he was first introduced to us). Pretty much every antagonist throughout DB and DBZ were (at least at the time of their introduction) absolutely evil, which is both the reason for some fans to love them and the reason for others not to pay much attention to them. Beerus can't be seem in the same light as Vegeta (in his early days), Freeza, Future #17 and #18, Cell or Kid Buu (to stick to the series and refrain from including the likes of Brolly, etc.); he's a deity, relaxed, insanely powerful, can't be really deemed "evil" (nor "good"), and overall possesses a comic/extremely powerful combo which we haven't really ever seen before in an antagonist in Dragonball. He certainly can't be deemed a villain (nor an ally or a "member of the team", either). We wouldn't need it to confirm this, but the part in Fukkatsu no F where he replies to Bulma saying he's "no-one's ally" and to Freeza saying "do what you want, I don't care, but do it farther away" is definite, conclusive proof of that.
Don't get me wrong, like I said in my previous post I'm a fan of Beerus myself. I can't really see how even somebody who's not a DBZ fan at all and is not familiar with the storyline and watches BoG and, to some degree, Fukkatsu no F wouldn't become at least amused by his character while at the same time afraid/shocked at witnessing how insanely powerful he really is. He has some small similarities to Goku - insanely powerful, loving food, relaxed attitude. I think that they really did a great job as far as showing just how strong he was goes in BoG by having him thrash the strongest form of Goku on Kaiou-sama's planet with no effort whatsoever right in the first minutes of the movie. From that point on, we were all left with the constant, lasting impression that he was all but untouchable, although - to a certain degree of dissatisfaction for me - Whis is above him, and there might be stronger villains than him in the 6th Universe arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Small correction of my previous post: Piccolo Daimao/Piccolo at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is/are my favourite antagonist(s) - I have Piccolo Daimao's kanji tattooed on my chest.
Another small correction: we don't really get to see maniacal, absolutely evil characters in DB up until the appearance and introduction of Piccolo Daimao. However, in DBZ pretty much almost every villain (major or not) all the way throughout the series is absolutely evil and genocidal, for one reason or another (Vegeta, Freeza, Future #17, Future #18, Cell, Kid Buu, or even Raditz, Nappa, Zarbon, Dr. Gero, Yakon, Dabura). If we included the movies instead of refraining from it, then the likes of Cooler, Tullece and his henchmen and especially Brolly would be right at or close to the top of the list as well, as far as "evilness" and violent tendencies goes.
______________________________________________________________________________________
It's as simple as this:
Before we got all the leaks and info on the storyline of the arcs of DBSuper, the sequence of events was the following:
- Kid Buu is killed (Majin Buu arc in DBZ)
- 2 years later Tarble, Abo and Kado arrive on Earth (2008 special)
- 2 years later Beerus awakes after 39 years of sleep, searches for the Super Saiya-jin God, fights Goku and goes back to sleep again (BoG)
- Slightly after that Vegeta reaches the SSJG stage himself, Goku and Vegeta go off to train with Whis and Goku and Vegeta both attain SSJGSSJ (off-screen)
- Slightly after that Freeza is resurrected, undergoes training, challenges Goku and Vegeta and gets killed again (Fukkatsu no F)
- 5 years later everyone reunites for a new Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub is introduced (last 3 episodes of DBZ)
Taking into account the way they're redoing the storyline in terms of the introduction of new characters and placing the timing of events, this is the actual sequence we'll get to see in DBSuper:
- Kid Buu is killed (Majin Buu arc in DBZ)
- 6 months later we get to see these first episodes of family interaction, Beerus wakes up and starts destroying planets (DBSuper)
- Champa and his attendant are introduced and Beerus sets off on a mission to find who/what Super Saiya-jin God is (Beerus arc in DBSuper)
- Goku and all the others meet Beerus and Whis (and perhaps Champa and his attendant), fight them, Goku reaches Super Saiya-jin God through some different method and Beerus and Whis leave (Beerus arc in DBSuper)
- Vegeta reaches SSJG himself, Goku and Vegeta decide to train with Whis and reach Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (Beerus arc in DBSuper)
- Freeza is resurrected, undergoes training, challenges Goku and Vegeta and gets killed again (Freeza arc in DBSuper)
- 6th Universe arc (6th Universe arc in DBSuper)
- 5 years later everyone reunites for a new Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub is introduced (last 3 episodes of DBZ)
This is only speculation, there could indeed be a time-skip and the events we saw in the first episode of DBSuper could be happening at different timings (as in, Goku + Goten or Mr. Satan + Majin Buu happen 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu whereas Beerus is eating and destroying that planet 4 years later), but there's no reason for them to go this road and pretty much everything we saw in the first episode makes it almost obvious that everything (every arc within DBSuper) will be happening at the same time (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu), which means that both the setting AND the timing of the events of BoG are being replaced. That's it, pretty simple.
______________________________________________________________________________________
MasterVampire wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
I would like to see Mr. Satan try to fight Freeza similar what he did with Cell. Mr. Satan has meet every main villain in DBZ expect for Freeza.
Freeza would probably have the same reaction as Cell:
"His ignorance is painful...."
Taking into account Freeza's absolutely ruthless personality, beyond finding Mr. Satan ridiculous, he would kill him, which is pretty much the reason why we've never seen and will never see such an encounter.
Freeza is the only major villain throughout all the arcs of DBZ who kills every single one who just happens to annoy him or even because they're just standing there, let alone for disappointing/betraying/challenging him, and the one who displays the least amount of respect towards life in general. He is more egotistical, ruthless, genocidal, maniacal, narcissistic and evil than anyone else in the series, hence, the perfect villain.
This doesn't mean he's my favourite one. I prefer many aspects of Cell, particularly in his perfect stage, or Vegeta in his early days back in the Saiya-jin saga (where he was pretty much a "smaller" version of Freeza himself, after two decades under him and being molded by the latter). The major villain I like the least is Majin Buu, in any of his forms but especially in his fat form. Choosing not to take into consideration the movies, of course, otherwise the insanity and psychotic personality of Brolly would push him close to the top. If we include DB, then, for those who really know the series, I think it can't even be argued whether or not Piccolo Daimao is a maniacal psychotic villain with a degree of evilness close to Freeza. After all, he's the incarnation of evil, but he adds arrogance and ruthlessness to that. Initially he was introduced as an attempt (rather successful one) to add more drama and seriousness to the series, but as they expanded the story in DBZ it becomes clear that his son/reincarnation, although at first ALMOST as evil as Piccolo Daimao himself, had the potential to eventually become absolutely "good", which he does right in the Saiya-jin saga. By the Freeza or Jinzouningen arc, Piccolo is pretty much 100% good. It took Vegeta almost the entirety of DBZ to undergo the same process.
It's rather fun to see how the fact that a given villain is particularly evil makes him such a great enemy character. The more ruthless and evil they are, the more we admire them and at the same time sympathize with the good guys' cause of taking him down.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Metrite wrote:
So, does it presently look like this new series is going to just retell the stories of BoG and FnF in its own way? If so, I guess those movies will effectively become like the first 3 DB movies; same characters and matching/similar story, but not the version that counts.
That is probably in part why I feel so disinterested in this new series so far. Taking place before the end of Z already causes enough issues, but now we already know several major plot points to come, like both the "new" transformations Goku and Vegeta will be reaching. Fat Beerus (I like that name better lol) and Lady Whis being the first new things revealed made me start to question if we'd even be getting much creativity. Oh well, I guess this universe 6 and Super DBs thing is something new that sounds interesting at least. I just hope it doesn't take too long to get there.
Although they could have chosen to basically maintain the previous sequence (Majin Buu arc - 2008 special - BoG - Fukkatsu no F - last 3 episodes of DBZ), there's more than one reason that makes it inevitable to have Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God Goku introduced in a different setting and circumstances. We can go back and forth on whether or not that was really necessary and they're doing it the right way, but I guess that they saw so much potential in Beerus' and Whis' background as characters that they wanted to expand on their stories and on their encounter with Goku, Vegeta and the others throughout a number of episodes, without the restrictions typical of a movie. The same applies, to a shorter degree, to Fukkatsu no F. It will get its own arc and we'll probably get to see a number of events that happened before and during Fukkatsu no F in the Freeza arc in DBSuper (namely Freeza training, which pretty much everyone, including myself, seems to be craving for - it would also serve the purpose of helping us understand a little bit better how Freeza managed to overcome such an enormous gap between his previous maximum level of power and the power of the likes of SSJG Goku, Beerus, Whis, SSGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta).
We're basically going to have Beerus and Whis meet Goku and the others in different circumstances and at a different timing, as well as Goku reaching Super Saiya-jin God through another method when compared to the events of BoG, which will officially become "non-canon". It'll be the same characters and basically the same events, but at a different time and with some minor (or major) changes - everyone is still wondering how they'll go around the issue of having to change the way Goku reaches the stage of SSJG. We can only speculate at this point, we'll never know for sure until we get official info or, more likely, get to see what happens in the episodes themselves as they come out.
The "link" between Beerus' arc and Freeza's arc in DBSuper is what I'm looking forward to the most after the 6th Universe arc (which is, as you rightly said, the arc in which we'll actually get to see previously totally unexplored material, characters and villains), due to the fact that I really want to see Vegeta reaching Super Saiya-jin God himself (perhaps he'll reach it at the same time, or soon after Goku does it), Goku's and Vegeta's decision to go off to train with Whis and just how and why Goku and Vegeta managed/decided to go further and reach yet another stage (Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin).
Theoretically, the 2008 special can continue to be considered as a canon continuation to the main timeline (there's nothing there that would generate plot holes or contradict the fact that by that time - 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu - Goku had already attained the stage of SSJG and met Beerus and Whis. The fact that he didn't use the SSJG form throughout that special was obviously due to the fact that he didn't need to, taking into account the lack of challenge Abo and Kado represented.
I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, but unless the 6th Universe arc happens after that (which is obviously not going to happen), pretty much everything that happens throughout all the arcs of DBSuper will inevitably and eventually lead to that. We get 10 years to explore - and that's what they've been doing with the recent specials and movies, and now with the series -, but on the other hand I bet that Toriyama wishes he could go back and refrain from setting the end of DBZ 10 years after the Majin Buu arc. It's just a personal issue I have (not liking those last 3 episodes of DBZ). It just doesn't really feel like by the time of the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the appearance of Uub they've gone through all of these major events (meeting Beerus, the revival of Freeza and even the exploration of another Universe).
______________________________________________________________________________________
sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub.
You're in luck cause if Videl is announced to be pregnant then that'll mean Toriyama is rewriting the ending.
Yes, that would be the ideal thing to do. If we need to go through the process of "decanonizing" BoG and Fukkatsu no F, where's the harm in rectonning those last 3 episodes of DBZ, have Pan be born much sooner than she was in DBZ (a number of months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 6 years later) and even be able to - if they choose to do so - keep the ritual to achieve Super Saiya-jin God exactly the same it was in BoG? They can pretty much do whatever they want with the timeline and the timing at which events and characters are introduced, we're the ones who need to adapt to it, not the other way around. This would mean that if the last 3 episodes of DBZ are basically going to be "erased from the timeline's history", we don't need to worry about the inconsistencies with her age. 10 years later she would obviously be 9 years old instead of 4, but that doesn't even matter if they're indeed going to retcon the last 3 episodes of DBZ.
______________________________________________________________________________________
"I'd personally rather not have Toriyama retcon the last chapters of Dragon Ball. Seems like a silly move to do so many years after the ending has already came out and been cemented in the fandom."
I partially agree. I don't quite like the concept of altering events which were assimilated as canon continuations of the main timeline of the series, but taking into account that we'll be "forced" to adapt to the fact that BoG and perhaps the 2008 special and Fukkatsu no F never "happened" (at least the way they did, in the circumstances they did and at the timing in which they did) due to retcons, it would make a retcon of those last 3 episodes of DBZ easier to accept. But anyway, I'm not really a fan of "decanonizing" events after they've been assimilated as canon. We can only pretty much speculate at this point, we'll have to wait and see exactly when Pan is conceived, when Beerus and Whis go to Earth, how and when Goku reaches the Super Saiya-jin God stage, etc. I personally like to know in advance what will or won't be canon, but in this case there's no alternative but to wait and actually see what happens as DBSuper's episodes come out, and then finally be able to put the entire sequence together, which is just impossible to do right now.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Cold Skin wrote:
With obviously no timeskip ahead anytime soon, since Battle of Gods has already started in Super, it's going to be either one or the other:
either Videl being pregnant during Beerus' visit is taken out (meaning altering the Super Saiyan God concept), or Pan's age in the epilogue (and perhaps the epilogue itself) is rewritten.
This is interesting, but since it's mostly Battle of Gods that gets rewritten/enhanced so far, chances are that the problem will be solved by taking Videl's pregnancy out.
I didn't think they would actually rewrite Battle of Gods a few weeks ago, but now proofs pile up to indicate we already are in a new updated, more detailed version of Battle of Gods right now.
And I'm okay with it, I've always liked the concept of updating/re-thinking/improving/refining stuff. Nothing should be cemented as definitive, there's always room for improvement and saying "THIS is no longer the definitive stuff, THAT is what it's like now after improvements".
They basically realized the entire potential Beerus and Whis as characters have, along with the concept of Super Saiya-jin God, and decided to go and do an arc-long version of BoG, without the time restrictions typical of a movie. They COULD have chosen not to alter a single thing in the timeline sequence we've had before (Majin Buu arc - 2008 special - BoG - Fukkatsu no F - last 3 episodes of DBZ), but by now, after all these discussions, I'm pretty ok with having Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God be introduced like they were in BoG although in different circumstances and at a different timing.
______________________________________________________________________________________
JEFFMAN219 wrote:
Am I the only here thats kind of disappointed that the first half of Super will just be re telling Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F?
Taking into account the fact that we're being presented with an entire new series with who-knows how many new episodes, you can look at the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F as only the first two major arcs within DBSuper after these first smooth family episodes. I'm pretty sure they won't stretch the Beerus and Freeza arcs for too long, so we'll get to the exploration of the 6th Universe arc sooner than you might expect, and then you'll be able to witness truly entirely new stuff, characters, villains, events and stages. I'm not at all disappointed, I pretty much welcome anything Toriyama has to offer us at this point with open arms.
______________________________________________________________________________________
TheGmGoken wrote:
What if U6 was the manga universe or the GT universe?
I agree with all the previous responses and reactions to this.
The events depicted throughout the 153 episodes of DB and the 291 episodes of DBZ need to be seen as a continuous sequence of the one and only timeline.
GT, the 4 DB movies and the 13 DBZ movies don't "happen" in a different timeline or in an alternate universe, they're rather side-stories which depict "what-if" scenarios. They were also made to explore interesting new characters and circumstances with some potential in terms of background and character development. In actual fact, the only movies from the 13 DBZ ones that COULD fit into the series' main timeline without causing any inconsistencies or plot holes would be movies 9 (right after the Cell Games, and I mean right after it, as Goku's still with Kaiou-sama in the Snake Way) and 13 (soon after Kid Buu's defeat).
All the others WOULD have "happened" in the following circumstances:
Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.
Movie 2 - It WOULD have happened IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc, since he uses Kaio Ken in the movie.
Movie 3 - IF there had been an additional Saiya-jin to have survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta and later came to Earth to find Kakarotto. It WOULD have taken place IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc before Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu and Piccolo died.
Movie 4 - IF there had been an additional Namek-sei-jin who survived the extreme weather conditions on the planet that led to Piccolo being sent to Earth and IF Goku and the others somehow had managed to either beat Freeza after Piccolo is resurrected and Vegeta dies but before he became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin or had left Namek before that, for some reason.
Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Movie 7 - IF the only two Jinzouningen which actually ever existed had been #19 and Dr. Gero (no #16, no #17, no #18, no Cell), and after either Goku or Vegeta and Piccolo had beaten them. It would have happened right after that.
Movie 8 - IF two additional Saiya-jin had survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and IF one of them WOULD just happen to be the Legendary Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD have happened if Paragas came to Earth during the 10 day-period between Cell's announcement of the Cell Games and the Cell Games themselves, after Goku and Gohan leave the RoSaT, since Gohan is a Super Saiya-jin.
Movie 10 - IF Brolly ever existed and had come to Earth. It WOULD have taken place during the period of time Gohan trains Videl and Goten.
Movie 11 - IF Brolly ever existed. It WOULD have taken place right after the previous movie (and after the Tenkaichi Budokai that led to the Majin Buu arc, but without the arc itself ever happening, as there WOULD have had been a Tenkaichi Budokai which for some reason had a final in which #18 lets Mr. Satan win in exchange for quite a large sum of money).
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)
Both the Bardock special and the Trunks special depict events which happened off-screen in DBZ's storyline (in Trunks' movie case, before he decided to go back in the past to warn Goku and the others about the Jinzouningen, which generated a different timeline - pretty much similar to what happened in Back to the Future 2)
The 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F were up until very recently considered to be follow-up continuations of DBZ's main, one and only timeline, and the 2008 special by itself can still be considered to be canon, as there's nothing there that contradicts what we've been seeing or hearing about in DBSuper, but BoG and Fukkatsu no F have also been basically turned into side-stories which are going to be retold, with the introduction of the same characters and stages but at a different timing and in different circumstances.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Not quite--Piccolo is already fused with Kami in the movie, and Dende is the new Kami of Earth.
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)[/quote]
If that had happened, there'd be no Gotenks and mystic Gohan, both of whom are in the movie.
Other than that, your assessments are all accurate, though.[/quote]
You're right, I screwed up on those 2. I made this up in a rush, though. I'll come up with the circumstances in which those 2 WOULD have been possible after giving it some thought.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Not quite--Piccolo is already fused with Kami in the movie, and Dende is the new Kami of Earth.
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)[/quote]
If that had happened, there'd be no Gotenks and mystic Gohan, both of whom are in the movie.
Other than that, your assessments are all accurate, though.[/quote]
You're right, I screwed up on those 2. I made this up in a rush, though. I'll come up with the circumstances in which those 2 WOULD have been possible after giving it some thought.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I bet you we'll see some Vegeta anger in a matter of hours.
By the beginning of the Majin Buu arc he's already a family man but still has a lot of anger deep down inside of him, but his decision to let Babidi control him and kill hundreds of people at the stadium was probably the last instance of really evil stuff done by Vegeta. After the Majin Buu arc, the transition is complete. However, the fact that he has become a family guy and one of the "good ones" fighting for good and out of love and sense of protection of his family, "friends" and life in general shouldn't mean he's lost his character and the way he interacts with others or presents himself and now become Mr. Nice Guy all of a sudden. That's never going to happen, it wouldn't be Vegeta if it did. Piccolo never has or will lose his degree of seriousness either, even after having become a full-fledged, 100% good fighter, but that also has to do with the typical Namek-sei-jin personality.
Piccolo completed the transition within one or two arcs, but it took Vegeta, who was first introduced as absolutely ruthless and evil and a smaller version of Freeza, almost the entirety of DBZ to undergo the same process. By the Freeza or Jinzouningen arcs Piccolo's evil has all but disappeared, but Vegeta's transition was much more gradual and incremental.
He'll just go insane in the middle of the annoying crowd of "human insects having fun". Obviously they're not going to have him kill anybody - the show can't get that serious this early and Vegeta is pretty much done with his killing days -, but he might just have an explosion of rage and destroy something while deliberately doing it in a way so that he doesn't kill anybody in the process.
We've got to sympathize with him, that's a hard position to be in. Being introverted and thinking lowly of pretty much every single being that surrounds you can't make it easy to interact between them in the context of a society.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Goddamn it, I can't believe we'll be watching another episode one week after that insane experience we went through exactly one week ago. Can't believe we're getting one new episode a week and we'll all be watching it at the same time again. This will become routine, but a wonderful one. I'm super-hyped. Goddamn it, I love this.
Honestly, tears came into my eyes last week when the first visuals from DBSuper showed up shortly after the clock reached 9h00. And right at the second episode we're getting Vegeta's version of a family-trip, the reappearance of Kaiou-sama, some more of Beerus' awesome character, Vegeta going insane in the middle of a human crowd and who-knows what else.
Can't believe that at 31 years of age in 2015 I would be watching a new series from DBZ in real-time in Japanese. I honestly thought it would never happen. It's an entirely different experience from Kai and the 2008, 2013 and 2015 movies, as in, it's not something that happens one time, you get to absorb it fully and add it to the rest, and it's done; you get to see new canon stuff with the entire environment of Dragonball in original Japanese exactly at the time it's happening in Japan and all around the world, and the experience gets to be repeated every single week.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I mean, it's been 18 years. Some of my friends weren't even BORN when Dragonball had ended. It's really hard to grasp the enormity and significance of this event. I'm sure most of you share the exact same sensation. I'd be glad to have survived this long even if it was just to be alive and kicking and present while this is taking place and I get to follow it as it happens.
______________________________________________________________________________________
And the opening theme has me totally addicted. Can't get it out of my head (and don't want to). It just adds to the whole experience I've described. They could have hardly chosen a better opening visuals + opening theme combo.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Captain Space wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Does anything that a new android/cyborg will appear in Super? I don't want it to happen, but with the whole going to other worlds then I could see it happening.
Seems unlikely, given the recent more fantasy-ish push, gods and all that, but not impossible I suppose. (I mean, yeah, RF had plenty of sci-fi, but Freeza's main thing in that was a nigh-magical transformation.)
Well DB had #8, DBZ had #16-Dr. Gero and Cell, GT had Super 17. The idea of Super giving us another cyborg is not too far off. I won't want a new cyborg in Super because I feel like the idea is overdone.
If I had to guess, taking into account we'll be dealing with the concept of another Universe and the fact that the most recent antagonists (Majin Buu and Beerus) are of that sort, I would go with either deities, demons or aliens for the new villain(s). The possibility I view as the least likely is actually cyborgs. Once again leaving out the movies, DB had Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo, who were demons/aliens, the Saiya-jin arc and the Freeza arc had aliens, the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs had cyborgs and the Majin Buu arc had demons or magical creatures (on the evil side) and deities (on the good side). All the concepts based on movies (the Jinzouningen, especially #16, are clearly influenced by the Terminator - Terminator 2 had come out 2 years earlier -, while Freeza in his third form is based on the xenomorph from the Alien franchise, for example) or other sci-fi fictional stories have been explored throughout Dragonball. They're most likely going to keep with the trend of gods/deities, but we can only speculate until we get info on the 6th Universe arc. They did a fantastic job with the concept of Beerus and its particular character (a deity who doesn't take sides and can't really be deemed neither "evil" nor "good"), although, despite the fact he is an antagonist, he can't really be called an "enemy", much less a "villain". After all the creative process they went throughout DB and DBZ, pretty much almost all ideas have been explored, so it's virtually impossible to see something entirely new, totally and absolutely unlike anything we've been before.
______________________________________________________________________________________
MajinMan wrote:
20 minutes to go guys. The first episode had much more tension, but the second episode made me realize that this is going to happen almost every week for who knows how long. I still can't believe something like this is actually happening. It's unreal.
Don't know if you read the last page, but you basically just said what I did about 2 hours ago:
"Goddamn it, I can't believe we'll be watching another episode one week after that insane experience we went through exactly one week ago. Can't believe we're getting one new episode a week and we'll all be watching it at the same time again. This will become routine, but a wonderful one. I'm super-hyped. Goddamn it, I love this.
Honestly, tears came into my eyes last week when the first visuals from DBSuper showed up shortly after the clock reached 9h00. And right at the second episode we're getting Vegeta's version of a family-trip, the reappearance of Kaiou-sama, some more of Beerus' awesome character, Vegeta going insane in the middle of a human crowd and who-knows what else.
Can't believe that at 31 years of age in 2015 I would be watching a new series from DBZ in real-time in Japanese. I honestly thought it would never happen. It's an entirely different experience from Kai and the 2008, 2013 and 2015 movies, as in, it's not something that happens one time, you get to absorb it fully and add it to the rest, and it's done; you get to see new canon stuff with the entire environment of Dragonball in original Japanese exactly at the time it's happening in Japan and all around the world, and the experience gets to be repeated every single week."
"I mean, it's been 18 years. Some of my friends weren't even BORN when Dragonball had ended. It's really hard to grasp the enormity and significance of this event. I'm sure most of you share the exact same sensation. I'd be glad to have survived this long even if it was just to be alive and kicking and present while this is taking place and I get to follow it as it happens."
:lol:
______________________________________________________________________________________
He didn't kill anybody, of course, but I'm pretty sure he would have killed the octopus if it weren't already dead.
First time we ever saw Vegeta actually refusing physical contact with Bulma.
Looks like Vegeta is again obsessed with surpassing not only Goku, but, as he said, any and whatever guy that happens to show up in the Universe (link to incoming Beerus' and Whis' appearance).
Also looks like they're retelling the story of BoG, as we already knew and discussed thoroughly, in different circumstances and at a different timing, but pretty much moving along quite fast and going through the same lines we saw in BoG (Beerus struggling to remember the name, Beerus saying it's a premonition, Whis saying Beerus' premonitions aren't usually accurate, and Beerus replying "are you making a fool of me?"). These were all lines present in the first appearance and interaction between Beerus and Whis in BoG.
Meaningful conversation between Whis and that stupid creature. It's a good thing Beerus just decided to blow the planet and the whole race up, ahah.
Beerus appears to love the sight of planets exploding just as much as Freeza (that's what it reminded me of at the end, especially when Freeza bursts of joy as Planet Vegeta explodes in flames).
______________________________________________________________________________________
I'm getting the feeling, after these 2 episodes, that they're introducing Beerus and Whis at quite a large speed, while at the same time reconnecting or reintroducing the main and secondary characters, for those who missed the 2008 special and BoG. That's pretty much the point of the way the series is starting. We'll get to the somewhat serious Beerus/Whis vs Goku/Vegeta/all the others interaction pretty soon. I hope it takes a more serious and dramatic tone than what we saw in BoG.
Beerus did seem just as obsessed about his dream/premonition in this episode as he did in BoG, but this time he could actually see a physical form.
Of course we all know where this will lead and how it will end, but I've got a feeling that Beerus' interruption of the party on Earth will be more dramatic/violent than in BoG, where it took him - thanks to Vegeta - quite a while to finally lose his temper.
We had been talking about Vegeta's development as a character and the gradual and incremental decrease in the degree of evil he has in his heart, which was pretty much entirely gone by the end of the Majin Buu arc. He acknowledged Kakarotto as the "Number 1" when fighting Kid Buu, but now we actually heard "Number 2" for the first time. He's regressed and yet again is obsessed with being basically not only better than Goku, but above anyone else in the entire Universe. Taking into account this slight change, I doubt he'll act the same way towards Beerus as he did in BoG up until the fighting broke out. He'll most likely identify him instantly as a new enemy/competitor to surpass, instead of being afraid (or rather, scared shitless) of him.
It's a good thing to have Vegeta recover his full obsession to become the best. That's basically what always made him surpass himself and the others and reach new levels and heights in terms of power. We didn't get to see any of this from Vegeta in BoG. That's what you'd expect from a series done with the careful thinking and planning and proper character development, in contrast to what happens in the movies, due mostly to the typical time restrictions.
BoG was all in all pretty comic and smooth. These ominous appearances by Beerus in both episodes give me the feeling that he, along with the whole setting in which he'll show up, will be more serious in this retelling.
I'm extremely pleased with the way they're slowly but steadily (re)introducing Beerus in DBSuper. They're moving along fast and if we didn't know him from BoG and Fukkatsu no F we'd all think he's a pretty evil menace - which we know he isn't, he has a very particular personality and can neither be considered or deemed "evil" nor "good" and doesn't take sides - after watching him blow up two planets and exterminate two races in two episodes.
______________________________________________________________________________________
sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
It's a good thing to have Vegeta recover his full obsession to become the best. That's basically what always made him surpass himself and the others and reach new levels and heights in terms of power.
With him saying more then once he doesn't want to remain #2,hopefully by that he means he wants to reach Ssj3 and Bulma getting hit will probably be the thing he needs to do it.
Before DBSuper was announced, let alone getting info about it or watching the episodes, I've always had the theory that at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F he had reached - or become able to reach - Super Saiya-jin 3, just like Goku, to put him on par with him, and then underwent the same ritual to reach Super Saiya-jin God, which basically enhances the maximum power level of a Saiya-jin by a given degree instead of being an actual incremental transformation like all the other stages of Super Saiya-jin. According to this theory, Vegeta basically WOULD have underwent the same exact process Goku did (although he achieved each stage at a different, later time), and was as strong as Goku in each stage: Super Saiya-jin - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai - Super Saiya-jin Full Power - Super Saiya-jin 2 - Super Saiya-jin 3 - Super Saiya-jin God - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. Of course, with the retelling of the events of BoG in different circumstances will mean that IF all of this actually happens to Vegeta, it will happen during the Beerus arc in DBSuper or shortly after, in the first episodes before the Freeza arc. He might just skip Super Saiya-jin 3, though, my theory is just that, a theory.
______________________________________________________________________________________
rolmanus wrote:
How far do you guys think the creators will go in changing stuff from the movies? Honestly I hope that if they change anything big, it will be the time-reversing ability of Whis.
I seriously hope that they will scrap this, it gives way too much power to the character, and since they are on Goku's side, it takes away so much of the tension, since there is really nothing to fear even in the worst scenario, since Whis can restore it (okay, okay, I know, the Dragon Balls themselves are taking away the risk of something bad happening permanently, but still..). Unless of course we'll go to heights where even Whis is killed... I believe that it should either be scrapped, or be given a very serious limit.
(Sorry if my english isn't the best, it's not my first language.)
In fact, the whole environment of Fukkatsu no F made the viewers' feel the lack of real tension and the inability by Freeza to, even after reaching a level of power close to/on par/above Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Vegeta, become a serious menace. On one hand, we had Beerus and Whis present, so even if Goku and/or Vegeta failed, they'd eventually take care of Freeza themselves. On the other hand, as you pointed out, Whis' time-reversal ability, although limited to 3 minutes, pretty much provides him with the ability to basically undo any damage done by anyone whatsoever, rethink the strategy and turn totally hopeless circumstances into an easy victory. On yet another hand, I've always defended Goku was holding back as SSJGSSJ during his fight with Freeza and even Golden Freeza, given how relaxed he always is throughout the movie, even when/after fighting Freeza in his Golden form, which suggests he never really ever viewed Freeza as capable of defeating or killing him or the others. Besides, both Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin would be eventually able to take care of him. All of this combined can turn the experience of Fukkatsu no F as a failed attempt to have Freeza become a serious menace, so the entire atmosphere of the movie wasn't in any significant way more serious, dark or dramatic than the one in BoG.
______________________________________________________________________________________
sintzu wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Kai already ended with Goku leaving with Uub. I think it would be wrong if they retcon the ending to DBZ so soon.
Keep in mind that the ending was written at a time where Toriyama was tired of the franchise and just wanted to get done with it so him not being happy with the ending and thinking up a new (hopefully) better one now that he's happy writing for the franchise again isn't surprising to me.
I''ve never liked the way DBZ ended in those 3 last episodes, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. I have no qualms with Goku having a full-fledged "disciple", but I just never welcomed Uub as a character with open arms, unlike most, or almost all others, for some reason.
Since they're retconning BoG and Fukkatsu no F while introducing the same characters and stages even though in different circumstances and at a different timing, there would be no harm to go one step further and actually retcon DBZ's ending, have Pan be born much sooner than she did and be 9 years old by the end of DBZ, but somehow I just think it's not going to happen. I believe Toriyama views the whole sequence of events throughout DB and DBZ as the one and only main timeline, unlike the movies and GT (and by "movies" we now obviously need to include the 2008 special, BoG and Fukaktsu no F). I highly doubt they'll go for a retcon of those last 3 episodes, but if they do go down the road of major changes in the timeline's which would cause inconsistencies and plot holes regarding the 10-year-later ending of DBZ, it would just become non-canon and we would need to accept it, just as we "learned" and went through the process of accepting GT, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as non-canon anymore.
After so many years of coming up with storylines, characters and backgrounds, in an entire massive and intensive creative process, by the Majin Buu arc he was pretty much starting to run out of ideas (understandably), hence the unsatisfying ending of DBZ. They should have never gone for a 10-year time skip between episodes 288 and 289 back in 1996. On the other hand, exploring that 10 year gap provides us with numerous possibilities for character development and events, which is basically what they've been doing in recent years in this process of revitalization of DBZ with the 2008, 2013 and 2015 movies that led to DBSuper as a full-fledged series after 18 years, but if they keep the last 3 episodes as they were, unless the exploration of the 6th Universe arc (or some potential follow-up arc) happens after a massive time-skip, which I highly doubt, whatever happens during the 10 year gap (introduction of Beerus and Whis, Goku (and Vegeta) reaching Super Saiya-jin God, introduction of Champa and his attendant, Freeza's resurrection and return to Earth, Goku and Vegeta training under Whis, Goku and Vegeta achieving Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, exploration of the 6th Universe and the resulting who-knows how many and how powerful antagonists villains) will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and by that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the appearance of Uub it just doesn't seem that they went through all of those events.
______________________________________________________________________________________
[/quote] Except if you tried to hold your breath while in the vacuum of space your entire body would explode. Which is why breathing in space is impossible, and why I wish people would use the term "SURVIVE in space", because NOBODY can breath in space.[/quote]
That's right, "breathing in space" is physically impossible to ANY race, as there's no oxygen to breathe in the vacuum. Those who belong to races which can SURVIVE in space, like Freeza, can most likely do so due to race-restricted abilities of resorting to a different method of keeping the oxygen in their bodies, creating it somehow or some other species-restricted ability. I've always defended the theory that those who can't survive in space and still do so and even fight there at full power - we've seen Bardock, Nappa, Vegeta and Goku standing/flying/fighting IN the vacuum of space - are able to do so by generating a Ki barrier or shield (visible or invisible one) to conserve the oxygen and keep from being in direct physical contact with the chemicals outside of that barrier. The fact that Brolly saves himself and Paragas from the destruction of Planet Vegeta - although, as we discussed before, it didn't really "happen" - by generating a Ki barrier pretty much helps to strengthen that theory.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Kai already ended with Goku leaving with Uub. I think it would be wrong if they retcon the ending to DBZ so soon.
TripleRach wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:
I'm just imagining the internet uproar if we don't get a timeskip to 4 years after Buu and despite that Videl is pregnant during the confrontation with Beerus. Guess that would mean not only would Super be ignoring GT, but it would ignore end of Z as well, I'd be okay with that honestly.
They could always change the ritual to require one less Saiyan, so Pan wouldn't be necessary anyway.
Or there's Tarble, but there haven't been any hints of him appearing in Super so far.
Yeah I think they could change the ritual to become a SSjG to be a different number or they do something wacky like wish back Radditz as a good guy.
They can pretty much do whatever they like with the circumstances in which the state of Super Saiya-jin God can be reached. They seem to be keeping almost all of the key-aspects of BoG, though, but if one major thing may change it will be the way to attain SSJ. They could either: 1- keep the exact same ritual - which means there needs to be a time-skip at some point to have Pan be already conceived, have Tarble be (re)introduced (unlikely, he lacks the potential to become an interesting character showing up out of nowhere, being Vegeta's brother without him, Nappa or Raditz ever even mentioning him to ANYBODY), have either Raditz or Nappa or, who knows?, even have Bardock be resurrected (which I would love if it happened, as I always wondered and dreamed about an actual interaction between Goku and Bardock), but all of these instances of bringing back other Saiya-jin seem too far-fetched to me; 2- change the ritual by diminishing the necessary Saiya-jin by one; 3- invent another ritual, or; 4- go for a total and absolute change and have Super Saiya-jin God be a state that can be reached through another method and without the help of anyone else (Goku says more than once in BoG that he didn't particularly appreciate the fact he couldn't attain the stage by himself alone, although he later manages to do so and incorporate the state itself and even master it AND upgrade on it).
All of these are possibilities, ones more than the others, but unless we get more leaked info before it happens, we'll need to see what they've chosen when we see the actual episodes as they come out.
______________________________________________________________________________________
We could all postulate a scenario in which Cooler actually "exists" in the main timeline of the Dragonball universe and either never even came to Earth or did indeed come to Earth at some point during the 3-year gap between Goku's return from Yardrat and the Jinzouningen arc and was subsequently defeated by Super Saiya-jin Goku and/or Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as in, the same character/fighter still exists and some events related to him did indeed take place, but at a different timing and in different circumstances, and obviously off-screen. This would pretty much solve the GT issue of having Cooler showing up escaping from Hell, but there is no issue to start with, as the entirety of GT itself has to be considered "non-canon" and no longer a direct follow-up of the events of DB and DBZ in the series' main timeline.
There is a virtually limitless number of possibilities through which we could "fit" fighters which were introduced in the 13 movies of DBZ in circumstances which would not create inconsistencies or plot holes, but is it really worth the effort? I would bet 95% of those behind DBZ and the distribution of DBZ-related merchandising don't care the slightest bit about whether or not a given fighter is "canon" or not, their purpose is to sell as much as possible.
We've been discussing the "canonness" of the 13 movies and/or GT too much, in my view. We've pretty much already reached the definitive conclusions on the issues presented by them. What we could continue discussing, although we've already done so intensively too, is how the events of the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F fit or don't fit into the main timeline of the series as a direct follow-up of DBZ's Majin Buu arc and leading up to the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, but even in that area we've already decisively concluded that, for a number of well-documented reasons, DBSuper is basically presenting us the same characters (Beerus, Whis) and the same stages (Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, Golden Freeza) although at a different timing (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later) and in different circumstances.
The debate on the "canonness" of GT, DB's 4 movies, DBZ's 13 movies, Episode of Bardock, Tarble's special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F regarding time inconsistencies and plot holes has me a little bit tired, to be honest. Until further information DBSuper's incoming episodes and arcs, Dragonball's one and only timeline is as follows: Bardock special - DB - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs - Trunks special in a different timeline - Jinzouningen and Cell arcs - Movie 9 - Majin Buu arc - DBSuper's first episodes - DBSuper's Beerus arc - DBSuper Freeza arc - DBSuper 6th Universe arc - last 3 episodes of DBZ. Any event depicted outside of this sequence, as far as we know, didnt' "happen". They're "what-if" scenarios exploring "what-if" possibilities, events and characters. It would be interesting to generate a list of events in Dragonball's universe main, one and only timeline BEFORE DB, though, as in, beginning millions of years ago, with Beerus, Whis, Champa, the creation of Majin Buu, Babidi's possession of Dabura, Majin Buu's rampage over the Kaioshin, and all the way throughout time, from King Cold's birth to the natural disaster on Namek, the Kaiou-samas locking of Bojack, Paiku-han's death, Olibu's death, Garlic Jr.'s birth, the split between Kami and Piccolo, the taking over of Planet Plant by the Saiya-jin, etc., etc. (as in, events which are depicted in flashbacks or hinted in DB and/or DBZ).
______________________________________________________________________________________
The most likely scenario in which any other surviving Saiya-jin would appear on DBSuper (and we had a few additional ones in the movies, although non-canon ones) would be if they keep the ritual to achieve the stage of Super Saiya-jin God exactly the same as in BoG and need an additional Saiya-jin to join Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten and Trunks. In that case, as suggested by Bulma herself in BoG, they could bring Tarble to the discussion again (although he, along with the entire events of the 2008 special, may have become non-canon just the way BoG and Fukkatsu did) or have either Raditz, Nappa or Bardock revived. This is really a long shot and I think the chances of it happening are more than dim and the overall scenario is utterly far-fetched. If I had to choose, I'd love to see both Raditz and Bardock resurrected, as they belong to Goku's family and I've always wondered throughout the years how Goku would react to Raditz after all those years (he has a tendency to forgive his past enemies and would probably accept him as a member of the team and his blood-brother) and especially how the relationship between Goku and Bardock, his father, would develop. Pure Saiya-jin have a natural tendency to cease from putting a lot of importance in family and blood relationships - Raditz wants to kills his brother and his nephew, Goku helps to kill his brother, Brolly kills his father, Vegeta seems emotionally indifferent to the decease of his father, etc. -, but the fact remains Goku has never seen his father once in his entire life, and Bardock, the other way around, only saw Goku as a baby and is completely unaware of the fact that he went on to become not only a Super Saiya-jin and beat Freeza, but reached entire new stages, defeated/fought toe-to-toe with much more powerful villains/antagonists in the following years and became pretty much one of the most powerful warriors in the Universe.
If they're indeed going for a change in how the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, which is the most likely scenario (although they could also retcon BoG even further and have Pan be born at this point instead of 4 years later and have her become the additional Saiya-jin they need, exactly as seen in the movie), they can either change the number of Saiya-jin needed, change the ritual itself or have the state become a transformation that can be underwent through some other method, such an explosion of anger or intensive training.
Regarding Tarble, I've always had the theory that basically Vegeta - who is deemed a fighting genius on several occasions throughout DBZ - inherited all the good genes from his father, leaving Tarble next-to-nothing (much like in the movie Twins, in which one of the sons is mentally and physically overly gifted and the other one is a dwarf with an attitude problem). If Tarble continues to be canon, or will become canon during DBSuper, we can only conclude that Vegeta neglected even mentioning him to his fellow Saiya-jin, Goku or anybody else, for that matter, on purpose, out of indifference/shame for his disgraceful fighting abilities as a member of his family line. Tarble came to DBZ as an additional surviving Saiya-jin and Vegeta's long-lost brother in an overly fast-paced manner.
We've always been chewing on the "fact" that there were only 4 surviving Saiya-jin from the destruction of Planet Vegeta and the genocide of the race, and indeed we can exclude Paragas, Brolly and Tullece, as they show up in movies, which depict, explore and expand on "what-if" scenarios and cannot be considered canon, but Tarble's introduction in 2008 came to change that fact. It's always hard to reshape your mind to change events which you went through the process of accepting as "facts" in DBZ's one and only timeline as canon. It's the same thing, to a certain degree, with having BoG and Fukkatsu no F be retold after having accepted them as canon direct continuations of the Majin Buu arc in DBZ in the 10 year gap between it and the last 3 episodes of DBZ, although we'll basically get the same events, characters and stages - Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta - being introduced just the same although at a different timing and in different circumstances.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I've never seen the Super Saiya-jin God stage as a direct follow-up Super Saiya-jin transformation building up on the previous one in a perfect sequence - Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3 -, but rather a different, separate and parallel event and stage achieved through a different method. The whole atmosphere in BoG lacked the seriousness, despair and drama of DB's Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. arcs and all of DBZ's arcs, and in that setting I've always viewed the ritual to achieve the Super Saiya-jin God stage as a rather inoffensive and over-friendly way to basically have the Saiya-jin as a race be put in a different light when compared to the blood-thirsty, savage, violent characteristics they display throughout the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, through the introduction of the concept of "good-hearted" Saiya-jin back on Planet Vegeta, fitting the movie's environment.
I do hope they change the ritual, or have the ritual itself be replaced by another method to achieve the stage - which has the potential of turning it into a proper direct follow-up of the other Super Saiya-jin transformations building up on the previous one.
Regarding Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, I view it as a slight improvement on the Super Saiya-jin God stage, keeping all of its advantages and adding some further Ki and the typical fighting abilities and tension typical of the Super Saiya-jin state(s), more than a mere "mastering" of the form or a Super Saiya-jin transformation building up on a Saiya-jin's state of mastery over the Super Saiya-jin God's stage, which is the explanation Goku provides in Fukkatsu no F, which, as he says it himself, is "a little complex and hard to grasp".
I'm well over the (at first) unpleasant fact that after going through the process of annexing BoG and Fukkatsu no F to the direct sequence of events in DBZ's timeline we now have to look at those movies as non-canon, as in, they never "happened". It's been thoroughly discussed before. We're basically going to have the same characters and events - Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Freeza's resurrection, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta - be introduced almost with no change to the setting and even picking up on some of the exact lines from BoG, as we've already seen in the first 2 episodes of DBSuper and know for a fact will happen in the next 3 episodes, with Beerus crashing a party, Goku fighting Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet, etc., although at a different timing and in slightly different circumstances. They could have chosen not to go this road and just keep BoG and Fukkatsu no F they way they are, but I guess Toriyama realized the immense potential of Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God had and decided to make a series-long version of the movie(s), expanding on the stories, building up a proper atmosphere and introducing everyone and everything at the right pace, without the time restrictions typical of a movie, even a longer one like BoG.
It might be seen as disappointing to have two entire arcs and quite a large chunk of DBSuper's first episodes - after these first two smooth family-focused ones, as a means to reintroduce the characters in a proper setting after the Majin Buu arc - depict characters who we already know and to whom we have already been introduced in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but even for the ones who can't get over that fact, I'm sure that before we know it, taking into account the fast pace at which they are moving forward with the story - we'll get entirely new events, characters and insanely powerful antagonists/villains be introduced after the Beerus and Freeza arcs, in the 6th Universe arc. I don't really mind the direction they took, although it might have come as a little bit of a shock when I first learned about it as the news, leaks and info on DBSuper's plot, arcs and storyline became available. I pretty much welcome anything Toriyama throws our way with open arms and the degree to which I was hyped before the series' debut, during its debut and at this point as well is pretty high, and will remain so, or even increase, particularly as we approach the 6th Universe arc.
I can't wait for them to explore on off-screen events which happened between BoG and Fukkatsu no F either, namely Goku's and Vegeta's decision to train with Whis, Freeza's 4-month training and Goku's and Vegeta's reaching the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage, which I see as a slight improvement on the Super Saiya-jin God stage, adding the natural fighting violence and tension typical of the Super Saiya-jin stages to it and most likely increasing the level of power by a little bit, while keeping all of the Super Saiya-jin God's advantages (ability to sense godly Ki, massive increase in power, making others unable to sense their Ki). I'm not sure we'll actually get to see the exploration of every single one of those events which happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F (especially Freeza's training and just how he managed to overcome such a huge gap in power between his previous forms and the levels of Ki Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Beerus and Whis have by the time of Fukkatsu no F), but it gets one hyped to anticipate just how Goku (and Vegeta) will reach their SSJG and SSJGSSJ stages, which will obviously need to be shown, fully explored and expanded upon.
What I am having trouble with is the fact that I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with those last 3 episodes, the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. On one hand, we get 10 years to explore, but whatever happens during the Beerus, Freeza and 6th Universe arcs will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and it just doesn't seem that by the time of the ending of DBZ they've gone through all of that. Maybe Toriyama will just go for another retcon, just like he did with BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and will have that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub become non-canon.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with those last 3 episodes, the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. On one hand, we get 10 years to explore, but whatever happens during the Beerus, Freeza and 6th Universe arcs will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and it just doesn't seem that by the time of the ending of DBZ they've gone through all of that. Maybe Toriyama will merely go for another retcon, just like he did with BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and will have that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub become non-canon, although he might feel he shouldn't "touch" something which aired back in 1996, after 19 years. I'm kind of hoping he goes that way, though. We've already gotten GT out of the way and have it become non-canon, and I see those last 3 episodes as a lead-up to GT. GT basically took on the worst aspects of DBZ's last arc - after so many years of intensive creative activity for new characters and dramatic events throughout DB and DBZ, Toriyama was already starting to run out of solid ideas by the Majin Buu saga - and ignored all the good/fantastic aspects which made DBZ what it was in terms of character development and backgrounds, storyline, drama, interactions, relationships, fights, etc. If they retconned the ending of DBZ, we would now be basically exploring the real, one and only timeline of Dragonball on a sequential basis, with the knowledge that will not lead to anything we've already seen before (last 3 episodes of DBZ 10 years later and/or GT), which are pretty much the circumstances we've been presented with in the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F (and, until a retcon of the ending of DBZ is confirmed, DBSuper's arcs). They could have Pan be born months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later, they could just basically "erase" the last episodes of DBZ from "canonness" and build up on and do pretty much whatever they want with the storyline and characters from now on. Some have speculated that the 6th Universe arc could happen after the ending of DBZ, meaning there would be a massive time-skip at some point in DBSuper, but I don't view that as a likely scenario.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Sure enough, they're retelling BoG so closely that it feels like you're watching the movie all over again. Especially when it comes to Beerus and Whis exchanges of speech regarding the Super Saiya-jin God. They're following the script from BoG almost on a line-by-line basis. It's incredible. Beerus' mentioning of how long it takes to go to Kaiou-sama's planet, Whis' closing of the eye while locating the Saiya-jin on Earth, them watching Goku and Freeza's battle back on Namek, the bingo prizes, #18 expressing interest in them, Beerus mentioning that he wiped out Earth's dinosaurs, Whis saying Prince Vegeta himself is on Earth as a surviving Saiya-jin, and so on.
We already knew they were going to basically retell BoG and introduce Beerus, Whis and Super Saiya-jin God Goku in pretty much the same circumstances as they did in BoG, but I didn't know it would almost feel as if we're watching the first minutes from BoG again. It's literally sentence-by-sentence. I'm not criticizing or expressing disappointment, just stating a fact.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Sure enough, they're retelling BoG so closely that it feels like you're watching the movie all over again. Especially when it comes to Beerus and Whis exchanges of speech regarding the Super Saiya-jin God. They're following the script from BoG almost on a line-by-line basis. It's incredible. Beerus' mentioning of how long it takes to go to Kaiou-sama's planet, Whis' closing of the eye while locating the Saiya-jin on Earth, them watching Goku and Freeza's battle back on Namek, the bingo prizes, #18 expressing interest in them, Beerus mentioning that he wiped out Earth's dinosaurs, Whis saying Prince Vegeta himself is on Earth as a surviving Saiya-jin, and so on.
We already knew they were going to basically retell BoG and introduce Beerus, Whis and Super Saiya-jin God Goku in pretty much the same circumstances as they did in BoG, but I didn't know it would almost feel as if we're watching the first minutes from BoG again. It's literally sentence-by-sentence. I'm not criticizing or expressing disappointment, just stating a fact.
I agree with your "concerns" over the animation. This one seemed to be much more weirdly or worse animated than the previous two. We could speculate that this has been the least good of all of the 3 first episodes so far, but that may be because the initial mega-hype for the first episodes is naturally fading away.
______________________________________________________________________________________
LuckyCat wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
I doubt it, they didn't change Videls missing leggings afterall or put anymore effort into that awful Beerus monster fight. Maybe they made the lines so thick so people won't realise how bad the animation is :P
Isn't it pretty normal to have different teams for different episodes in long-running series? I liked the look of the upcoming episode.
We've had more than 10 different animation teams throughout DB and DBZ providing animation for the episodes on an alternate sequence. I assume it's the same with DBSuper, although with not as much variety. The animation from this episode and possibly the next one might have been/be slightly below the first two episodes, but honestly I'm more interested in how closely they're following the plot from BoG almost on a sentence-by-sentence basis. It feels like watching the movie all over again, especially when it comes to the exchanges of dialogue between Beerus and Whis. I mean, they're using the same lines from the movie, they didn't change a thing in most lines.
We've had another instance of animation from DBZ used again in DBSuper (Cell's explosion in Kaiou-sama's planet), after Goku vs Kid Buu's fight in the first episode and Vegeta's training with Trunks in the second one. I'm not against that and it doesn't disappoint me. There really is no point into putting unnecessary effort into animating those scenes again when they can just take the animation which already exists.
I'm at a loss for words. After the whole process of revitalization of Dragonball we've been going through in the last years, with the 2008 special, Kai, Battle of Gods and Fukkatsu no F they went and decided to blow things up with an entirely new series.
This is my first post here ever, I finally decided to officially join the forum last May, but I've been following all of your discussions on a daily basis and I recognize in almost all of you both the level of fandom, the intellectual ability and the degree of knowledge of Dragonball's immense history and its most recent developments, and I'm sure I can gain a lot from starting to post here on a regular basis from now on.
There are many DBZ contents of my own creation on my YouTube page and on a Dragonball-dedicate blog I've created that I want you all to look at and share with you.
Thank you all for being "present" here at this point. Whether you're a long-time hardcore fan in your 30s like me or a younger individual, I feel as if we're all part of the same world and that our love for Dragonball connects us. It's actually hard to explain.
I'm not going to go in-depth in my analysis of any particular aspect of either the first episode we've just watched from DBSuper, or of BoG, FnF or any other DBZ-related subject matter.
I'd just like to share with you all my degree of emotion when the opening started and I felt that I was part of a small chunk of the world that was watching what we've been waiting for and discussing for so long.
I'll leave any deeper comments, shares and analysis for later. Now I have to take this in, absorb it and deal with the degree of deep emotion this caused me.
I doubt most of us even need subtitles anymore to understand 90% of the Japanese script, after years and years, decades even, of watching and rewatching hundreds if not thousands of times episodes of DB and DBZ to the point where most of us know each and every line uttered by every single character. At least this is my case. I literally learned spoken Japanese from watching and rewatching Dragonball Z on a daily basis for basically every week in the last 20 years of my life, especially after it became quite easy to have access to the original Japanese version, which was quite hard to get to up until a certain point in the mid-2000s.
Goddamn it, Dragonball is an entire separate universe on its own and it's in that universe that we all live in and that I want to discuss with you in each and every single little detail from now on.
Thank you all, thanks Akira Toriyama, thanks Japan.
Arigato gozaimasu.
MaGyunia
______________________________________________________________________________________
Doctor. wrote:
I prefer Dan Dan to this OP too, even though I enjoy both. I'm not really sure why people are saying "take that GT", when GT's first episode was almost as good, it's from here that we'll see if Super holds up or not.
There's a big difference between GT and DBSuper. GT was created in a rush right after 7 years of making up stories and characters and basically took on the worst DBZ had by Majin Buu's saga and had none of the elements that made DBZ so brutally great. By the time of Majin Buu, you can tell the creator was already struggling to find ideas, concepts, storylines and character interactions and backgrounds which could be both new and of the same quality as those seen in any of the previous arcs, right from the Tenshinhan arc until the Cell arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs. Besides, unlike GT, Super was and will actually be overseen by Toriyama, which pretty much just guarantees the quality of the stories, whether we're talking about serious action, fighting, villains and drama or lighter, smoother and comic aspects.
Moreover, even taking into account that this isn't actually the first really new material from DBZ, after the 2008, 2011, 2013 and 2015 movies, Toriyama is still in the process of revitalization with a clear head after so many years of Dragonball-story-creation inactivity, so he'll approach this new series with a much clearer head and come up with stories and backgrounds of roughly the same quality of what made any arc from DB and DBZ so great, although with a slightly different touch, considering the new audiences and the changes in Toriyama's viewpoints as a creative individual themselves.
______________________________________________________________________________________
shinmaru wrote:
Maybe this is going to be the best Dragonball ever. I have a good feeling about this series very good feeling because things look different in a good way especially after seen Kai 2.0.
I wouldn't go so far as to postulate that this might be the best Dragonball ever. We're talking about untouchable stuff when we mention the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ. It's virtually impossible to match it in terms of quality. Besides, we need to approach this recent and new material from a different standpoint while at the same time be able to fit it into the history of DBZ from the 80's and 90's.
This is entirely new material and there's an enormous potential for character and storyline development taking into account the 10 year gap between Kid Buu's defeat and the last episodes of Dragonball Z. If they're going to retcon BoG and maybe Fukkatsu no F, which I personally would prefer they didn't, as I had already went through the process of accepting them as canon stories following the Majin Buu arc, then I wouldn't really mind if they retconned those last few episodes and got rid of Uub. It would have been better if Z ended in another way, since we're stuck in this 10-year time period and anything will eventually lead or be followed up by the last Tenkaichi Budokai in Z and Uub's appearance, in a setting that doesn't really please me. I'm not even considering GT, it's not even canon and is not, nor does it deserve to be, a follow-up to Dragonball and Dragonball Z.
______________________________________________________________________________________
thesupergodman wrote:
Guys, while the series is having a strong start, we must remain wary. It could start good but fall into the same rut GT did. All in all, I hope the series becomes bigger and better than DB and Z.
I'm sorry but I'll just repeat what I wrote earlier in response to this. There's no way in hell Super could end up in the same road as GT:
"There's a big difference between GT and DBSuper. GT was created in a rush right after 7 years of making up stories and characters and basically took on the worst DBZ had by Majin Buu's saga and had none of the elements that made DBZ so brutally great. By the time of Majin Buu, you can tell the creator was already struggling to find ideas, concepts, storylines and character interactions and backgrounds which could be both new and of the same quality as those seen in any of the previous arcs, right from the Tenshinhan arc until the Cell arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs. Besides, unlike GT, Super was and will actually be overseen by Toriyama, which pretty much just guarantees the quality of the stories, whether we're talking about serious action, fighting, villains and drama or lighter, smoother and comic aspects.
Moreover, even taking into account that this isn't actually the first really new material from DBZ, after the 2008, 2011, 2013 and 2015 movies, Toriyama is still in the process of revitalization with a clear head after so many years of Dragonball-story-creation inactivity, so he'll approach this new series with a much clearer head and come up with stories and backgrounds of roughly the same quality of what made any arc from DB and DBZ so great, although with a slightly different touch, considering the new audiences and the changes in Toriyama's viewpoints as a creative individual themselves."
And there's no way it can get bigger and/or better than DB and/or DBZ:
"I wouldn't go so far as to postulate that this might be the best Dragonball ever. We're talking about untouchable stuff when we mention the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ. It's virtually impossible to match it in terms of quality. Besides, we need to approach this recent and new material from a different standpoint while at the same time be able to fit it into the history of DBZ from the 80's and 90's."
______________________________________________________________________________________
What I liked most about the whole Beerus' scene of destroying a planet was the immediate aftermath, namely his attitude. It's really nothing new considering his character, which we've already been introduced to in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but the fact that he cleans his teeth off of the food he just ate in the planet he just destroyed while looking so relaxed and even talking while he does it is just priceless.
About Muten Roshi, the whole leaks and information we've been getting in the last days and weeks almost on a daily basis didn't really lead anybody to anticipate such a random and hilarious entrance, but that's what you expect from completely new material. We had just been exposed to small, although perhaps the most important, bits of what was to come. I also loved the way Chi Chi reacted to his indecency, this time she didn't beat him up or hit him with a frying pan or anything. It's stuff like revitalizing and keeping alive some, most or indeed all of the most notable characters from the very early stages of DB and DBZ that we enjoy.
Like I said before, Super, and indeed the 2008 movie, Battle of Gods and Fukkatsu no F all need to be viewed and analyzed from a different standpoint while at the same time adding all of it to the DB and DBZ history from the 80's and 90's. You can't get rid of characters like Muten Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kaiou-sama, among many others, and you can't really downsize the part huge and extremely powerful characters like Piccolo disappear partially or altogether either, which were severe mistakes made at some points during the Majin Buu arc in DBZ and the entirety of GT.
Most of us would like to see extremely well-developed characters with fantastic backgrounds like Bardock, King Vegeta or Vegitto make an appearance, or even Raditz, but I really don't think any of that is going to happen. Apart from these first soft and smooth family episodes, the introduction of Beerus and Whis, the introduction of Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin God and the resurrection of Freeza, it's going to move on to entirely new stuff previously unexplored. The concept of gathering Dragonballs from distant places outside of Earth may lead us to automatically think about the Namek arc and especially the first stage of GT, but I'll bet you that by the time we get to the point of exploring the 6th Universe in Super the series will take on a more serious tone, with extremely powerful villains a lot of drama, much in the same way as it happened in any of the arcs of DBZ. Whether you're a long-time hardcore DBZ fan in your 30's like me or a younger fan, you obviously want and indeed need some dose of random humor, but eventually what we really want and need to watch is epic battles with extremely well-developed and interesting storylines, plots and characters, along with drama. DBZ was extremely serious as far as action, drama and blood and guts goes, it featured genocidal maniacal villains, demons, ultra-powerful cyborgs, psychopaths, epic drama, as opposed to the first all of DB, which was intended at first to just give you a lot of random humor and especially the concept of random adventure.
I'm not entirely happy with the fact they're obviously retconning both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, as I had already went through the process of integrating them as full-fledged stories (unlike the other movies) which were just as much a continuation to DBZ and the Majin Buu arc as the last episodes of Z, but at least they realized the potential of recently created characters like Beerus and Whis and decided to introduce them in the storyline, give them a significant role and make them a big part of the series, although in a different setting when compared to BoG. I also doubt we'll even hear about Tarble in Super, he might just lack the potential to be seen as an interesting character to introduce and/or develop, and obviously the 2008 movie will basically just be "erased" (as in, made non-canon).
The fact that Beerus is already awake 6 months after Kid Buu's defeat rather than 4 years later is pretty much the catalyst for the need to change the entire storyline and make BoG and Fukkatsu no F side-stories instead of part of the main timelime.
All in all, the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball with new material that we've been going through in the last years, with Kai, the 3 movies and now Super is being done in an almost perfect way: they picked up the story exactly where they should have, right after the Majin Buu arc, taking advantage of the 10 year gap between that and the Tenkaichi Budokai in the last episodes of DBZ, which means the stage or level of power we're dealing with in these first episodes of Super before the emergence of the Super Saiya-jin God or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God stage as far as each character goes is and will be done in the following manner: Goku's most powerful stage is Super Saiya-jin 3, Gohan is pretty much as strong as Goku in his Ultimate stage, Gotenks is capable of reaching Super Saiya-jin 3, Vegeta hasn't gone beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 and Majin Buu is slightly stronger than Vegeta or Goku in their respective Super Saiya-jin 2 stages. Now we'll get to see the exact procedure through which Goku and Vegeta will reach SSJG and SSJGSSJ.
I'll never be happy with the way DBZ ended, with the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, especially because it actually caused any exploitation of the 10 years between Kid Buu's defeat and that last tournament to inevitably lead to those last episodes and the appearance of Uub 10 years later, unless they decide to retcon that as well, which they obviously won't do, as it's part of the manga. But on the other hand it gives us 10 years to explore. I'm not even considering the events of GT, as I regard them as non-canon and "non-existent", or side-stories, much in the same way the 13 movies were (the only ones we could fit in the series' timeline would actually be movies 9, right after the Cell Games, and 13, right after Buu's defeat). And I won't even analyze or comment on GT's quality in terms of story or character development, all the mistakes have already been discussed and pretty much identified, they made it in a rush, got partially or totally rid of significant characters, Toriyama wasn't involved and all of it was thought of and done after 7 years of continuous struggling for new ideas for DBZ, by which time the potential for both new and quality stories was pretty much just depleted. GT basically took on the worst elements of Z which we already saw at some points in the Buu arc, and took on none of the elements that made all the arcs from DB and DBZ so powerful and great in all aspects, beginning in the Tenshinhan arc and up until the Cell arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs in the middle. I'm not saying I don't like Majin Buu's arc, there were definitely a few concepts and characters with a degree of quality on par with what we saw in the other sagas, like Dabura, Vegitto, Super Saiya-jin 3, the concept of fusion, the Kaioshin, Ultimate Gohan, Goten, Majin Vegeta, some of the fights throughout the arc, etc., but there were also some shortcomings when compared to, say, the Saiya-jin or Freeza arcs, which had a much more serious and dramatic tone, just to mention or identify two of them randomly.
______________________________________________________________________________________
A lot of my worries are gone, first episode was great!
Since we know now that Gohan and Videl aren't married yet I am sticking to my theory that Beerus crashes their wedding instead of Bulma's birthday.
ONWARD TO EPISODE 2!
Image
Why is he even outside the plane at all? :lol:
So much build-up to Vegeta fun times; I may be more excited for this episode than I was for the first one.
It's just natural one would be more hyped for a Vegeta family trip than for smooth, soft or even comic instances of Goku's family, given their characters. The sheer concept of having Vegeta, who was first introduced as a major psychotic villain with desires of immortality and prince of a bloody and powerful fighting race, a killing machine with a dark past, having "fun", whether he deep down wants to or not, gets one hyped. We've already seen some of his interactions with Trunks (both as a young boy and, in a different setting, as Mirai no Trunks) in the early Majin Buu arc and throughout the arc itself. We got to see some previously only imagined moments of interaction between Vegeta and Bulma as man and woman in BoG, but, indeed, any feelings Vegeta was shown to have for his family and even for Goku's friends and Earthlings in general throughout the Majin Buu arc - especially when he hugs Trunks and says goodbye to him, Bulma and Kakarotto before blowing himself up, are always hidden and, being an introverted, hard-to-talk individual myself, I imagine that it must be pretty hard for him to be "forced" to be around regular folks all the time with all the constant nagging when what you really want is to train to get stronger and think very lowly of society in general and don't even recognize in them the intellectual or moral capability or right to address him. None of these constant instances of lack of demonstration of feelings for anybody necessarily means they don't exist, obviously. That's just his character, and I'll bet you that when the concept of Vegeta was first introduced in the Saiya-jin arc Toriyama never meant to eventually turn into one of the good guys so fast (which, for example, happened to Piccolo, who in a matter of 6 years went from being the reincarnation of one of the most psychotic and evil villains of the entire history of DBZ to giving his life to save that of the son of his previous worst mortal enemy); regarding Vegeta's very gradual and long transformation from a full-fledged villain into an undeniable part of the team and, in fact, some sort of a family man, things just went that way, after Toriyama saw the enormous potential he had as an anti-hero figure and the ultimate badass in the series. He had to keep him there and expand on his background by linking him - along with the entire Saiya-jin race - to Freeza. You can see some little lessening of evil when he joins Krillin and Gohan against the Ginyu Tokusentai, or when he spares Krillin and Gohan's life on Namek a few episodes before that, and then a lot more in the Jinzouningen saga when he not only fathered a son with Bulma and chose to live on Earth but ended up swallowing his humongous pride to help Gohan get rid of Cell once and for all in desperate circumstances; 7 years later, with Trunks born, it's just normal his evil was all but extinguished, and even more so after the Majin Buu arc, where he had to in fact team up with Goku more than once to save his "friends", Earth and the Universe. But that doesn't mean he suddenly has or ever will indeed be able to become a joyful character, that would betray the very concept of Vegeta itself, it'll never happen.
In the second episode we'll most likely focus on the Vegeta's family version of fun family times, whereas in the first one we saw yesterday we focused on Goku's. We'll be able to expand on Vegeta as a family man quite a bit, but it would be best not to overdo it. Just have him be pissed off and annoyed all the time surrounded by regular humans and perhaps shout at someone or perhaps go so far as to destroy something out of sheer anger. In the early days, he would destroy someone, or an entire planet, rather than an object, and with a big smile on his face. That's how much he changed. It took time and several arcs, but he did eventually change and I guess, as they were discussing in Battle of Gods, we can call him "pure-hearted", as in, not evil (anymore).
______________________________________________________________________________________
I know this was never intented to be taken seriously, but I've always found the whole Superman vs Goku debate pretty absurd. First of all, even if they want to pick someone from the universe of Dragonball as the strongest fighter, it's not Goku, he's always close to the top but there have always been, in all arcs, someone stronger than him. Overall, as far as we know, Whis is the strongest fighter from the universe of Dragonball so far, followed by Beerus and/or Champa's attendant. Before the introduction of Beerus and Whis in recent years, more than one version of Super Buu, Janenba (if you count the movies), Gogeta (if you count the movies, the same one, in fact) and especially Vegitto surpass Goku.
Being the main protagonist of a series doesn't necessarily mean you're the strongest fighter of the series, does it? For example, I've always seen Tenshinhan as stronger than Krillin, but pretty much everyone states Krillin as the strongest human mostly due to the fact that he's much closer to Goku and the rest of the gang and always present, whereas Tenshinhan has had long periods of hermit-like absence with Chaozu.
Second of all, and perhaps more importantly, any fighter by, say, the middle of DB was capable of a level of destructive power and energy manipulation superior to that of Superman. Since by the Saiya-jin arc most of the fighters are tens of times stronger than that, and by the Freeza arc tens of times stronger than they were in the Saiya-jin saga, and so on and so on, constantly surpassing each other and reaching new levels of immense power, how can someone even postulate a fair duel between ANY form of Goku against Superman? The two things don't even belong to the same universe in any aspect, except that they're both fictional and both characters have some similarities as far as their background and hero-like characteristics goes.
I mean, even someone as Vegeta in his early days in the Saiya-jin Saga, or Zarbon, could destroy an entire planet. Freeza had a number of soldiers stronger than them, Freeza was hundreds of times stronger than Zarbon, Mirai no Trunks was stronger than him, #17 and #18 were much stronger than Mirai no Trunks, Cell in his second form was much stronger than #17 or #18, Vegeta in the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage was much stronger than Cell in his second stage, Cell in his perfect form was much stronger than Super Vegeta, Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin 2 was much stronger than Perfect Cell, Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2 when they fought each other in the Majin Buu arc were stronger than teen Gohan SSJ2, any form of Majin Buu is stronger than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3 and Ultimate Gohan are much stronger than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2, Vegitto is much stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku or Ultimate Gohan, and Beerus and Whis are even beyond that, and so on, and so on. The debate itself is ridiculous. By the time of even as early as the Saiya-jin saga almost any fighter would be able to wipe out Superman with two fingers.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
-The debate is not about the strongest character in each universe. Superman isn't the strongest DC character either.
-Superman has survived planet-destroying stuff before.
Hope this doesn't turn into a debate, and I'm certainly not gonna start declaring that one or the other would win (I don't really know to be honest), just pointing these two things out.
Sure, for the reasons I've stated it doesn't even deserve to turn into a debate. Besides, even if it were to turn into a debate, this would be the wrong thread. Let's get back to DBSuper.
______________________________________________________________________________________
GokuRules987 wrote:
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
ArcaneSuperSaiyan wrote:
Does anyone know what was up with the scene where Roshi runs into Goku's house yelling something and ChiChi kicks him out? It kind of seemed like he was trying to warn them about something and ChiChi got mad that Goku would have to fight again.
So I'm wondering ...could Roshi sense Beerus...?
He heard Goku just got a lot of money, and wanted some to buy adult DVDs.
Was probably my least favorite moment of the episode, it wasent even funny, just a plain ass pulled moment. Roshi island should be atleast 3000km away from gokus house anyway.
Randomness can actually be seen as a form of humor, one which I particularly am very fond of, and there are plenty throughout DB and DBZ. I laughed my ass off when I suddenly saw Muten Roshi burst out of nowhere inside Chi Chi's house talking about buying sukebe DVDs, especially because none of the information we've been getting on Super in the last days and weeks could possibly lead any of us to anticipate such a scene. Surprising and great way to introduce Muten Roshi in the series right from the start, in fact. He got lucky this time, he didn't get knocked to the ground, or his glasses broken or hit by a frying pan or anything.
Every character who used to be at some point in the 80's and 90's a major character in a particular arc or more than one deserves and needs to have their screen time just like this, obviously taking account their background and characters. I bet you we'll see not only more of Muten Roshi but also the re-introduction of most or indeed all of the most important members of the team, and this obviously includes (it must include, I'd be very disappointed if it didn't) Yamcha and especially the Tenshinhan-Chaozu duo, among many others, in scenes, circumstances and settings that fit them in all aspects, at least for a couple of minutes.
______________________________________________________________________________________
All in all, this first episode managed to contain or pack quite a large chunk of different events from all angles (Goten + Trunks, Gohan + Videl, Beerus, Goku + Goten, Mr. Satan + Goku, Mr. Satan + Majin Buu, Muten Roshi + Chi Chi) in a short period of time. I'm not postulating they're rushing these first lighter, softer episodes to get to the more action/fighting-oriented or serious and dramatic tone of the series, which, if it will happen at all, will most likely have a different tone to it when compared to the genocidal maniacal villains and all the seriousness and drama we had in pretty much all arcs throughout DBZ. The series might get more violent when we finally get past these first introducing episodes, the retelling of the story of Beerus and Whis, the introduction of Champa and his attendant, the attaining by Goku and Vegeta of the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, the resurrection, training and defeat of Freeza and we get to the episodes where we start dealing with the 6th Universe. At this point we can only speculate at what sort of villains or characters or events may happen, but it will really be the first material which will be both completely new/previously unknown or unexplored and at the same time featuring the type of insane fighting and blood and guts any long-time hardcore DBZ fan should want and need.
Regarding the comparison between the first and second episodes, as I said before, it's just natural to be more hyped about the concept of a Vegeta's family fun time when compared to laid back, humorous or smooth events occurring in Goku's family, considering the huge difference in the characters and the fact that Vegeta was first introduced in the Saiya-jin Saga as a major villain with psychopathic violent tendencies, a killing machine with a wish for immortality and for ruling the universe as the prince of a fighting race. It took him - and Toriyama - gradual, very slow and incremental changes in his relationship with others and with himself over the Freeza, Jinzouningen and Majin Buu arcs to reach the point where he can no longer be considered the "evil guy amongst the good guys". We're past that, Vegeta is a family man, but that shouldn't and won't mean he'll lose any of his inability to adapt to society in general and toss away his humongous pride and stoic, serious, reserved character. It wouldn't be Vegeta at all if that ever happened.
Judging from the information we've been getting in the last days and weeks and yesterday's first episode and the preview of the second one, I'd say with a fair degree of certainty and confidence that they're doing things just the right way: a few episodes of character development, covering the retold stories of Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Vegeta and Freeza - BoG and Fukkatsu no F are obviously going to be made "non-canon" although the new characters and developments will be introduced just the same, only in different circumstances and at a different time - and then, finally, moving to the really new material. One might automatically associate the search for "Super Dragon Balls" outside of Earth to the Namek Saga or GT, but the main point of the storylines in DB and especially DBZ has never been to collect the Dragon Balls as it was in the earlier arcs in DB, but to survive and fight in dramatic circumstances against insanely powerful new menaces (although they obviously end up using Shenlong to repair the damage done after every major arc), and I hope they'll follow this trend in Super as well. I want things to get to a point where the circumstances seem so desperate and the enemy is so powerful that it will take a serious and dramatic set of events and transformations to beat and/or kill them, much in the same way we had it in all the arcs from the Tenshinhan arc to the Majin Buu arc, with the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs in between. After so many years of creative inactivity and an entire new generation to attract, I'm not expecting so much gore, death, blood and guts or violent fights, but Dragon Ball has always also been about extremely well-conceived character development, both in the good guys and in the villains, and I'm sure we'll get these fundamental and structural elements of DB later on in Super.
I'm not hoping to see dramatic events such as what we've seen in the Saiya-jin, Freeza or Cell arcs, with so many deaths, genocides and violence, they won't go in that direction nor could they even if they wanted to. That atmosphere belongs to the 80's and early 90's and has earned its place in history forever. What we've seen previously in DB and DBZ is pretty much just untouchable and they can't and won't be able to equal it, let alone surpass it. As such, there goes another reason for us to approach this new recent material in recent years, especially Super, from a different standpoint and perspective. We must be able to be open-minded and remain confident about whatever Toriyama plans to develop and introduce to the Dragon Ball universe from now on, it's really not like GT where he wasn't even involved, was made in a rush and got partially or completely rid of fundamental characters with fantastic backgrounds. We must also be able to both be able to see this new, previously unexplored material from a different angle when compared to the 80's and 90's DB and DBZ, but at the same being able to connect the two and believe that whatever is coming will be a worthy continuation of the previous sagas. It's not even a matter of belief to me, it's a mere certainty, in fact. The sheer fact that Toriyama is overseeing this pretty much ensures and guarantees at least an extremely high degree of quality in terms of character development, background and storyline.
I can't actually believe we just saw the first episode of a new Dragon Ball series for 18 years yesterday. We get to get hyped about the next episode without knowing exactly all the details of what's going to happen on a weekly basis. This alone should guarantee the hype for all of us.
______________________________________________________________________________________
When I was watching the commercials before the episode and the clock approached 9:00 I thought I entered another universe or something. When the first animation of DBSuper showed up a few minutes later tears came into my eyes and I felt like an overly enthusiastic little kid for the first time at this degree ever since... I can't even recall. All the time throughout the episode I felt like I was part of a chunk of the world of hardcore DBZ fans just like me who were feeling just the same way I was at the same time, watching the same enormously significant event at the exact same time.
It was really quite an experience. I guess from now on the sensation won't be as strong and it will gradually become one more weekly special but recurrent event in my life I'll be following every 1am on Sundays as the episodes keep piling up, but the excitement over the unknown material, stories, characters and events will compensate for that in the medium/long-term.
To sum it all up, I think that given the settings and circumstances, I can't think of any other way they could have possibly started the series with this first episode in a better way than they did, and that includes not only the episode events themselves, but the opening, closing, preview of the second episode, music, atmosphere, animation, everything. I'm entirely confident that all of our extremely positive reviews so far are not a consequence of the fact that it's just a new series after 18 years. Sure, after a long period of creative inactivity we've had Kai, the 2008 movie, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as new material, but this time around we're talking about a series of episodes, which is an entirely different concept.
What a wonderful experience. I'm glad I felt that I was sharing it with a lot of folks all around the world at the same time. I still get overly hyped when I recall those minutes before the episode aired and when it finally started.
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Everything about this episode was great.. I love "Slice of Life" Dragon Ball. And I think what makes it better or atleast more tolerable is that we all ready know what the climax is going to be for the most part.. So this new build up should work out pretty well.
I hope they throw us some curve balls in the BoG and F arcs, for instance I would love it if instead of it just being Beerus going to Earth it is both Beerus and Champa and then Goku and Vegeta both become gods to fight them.
And throw Abo, Cado and their fusion Aka into the F arc to fight Goten, Trunks and Gotenks.
The fact that Beerus is awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later is obviously the catalyst for the need to introduce Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God in a different setting. As a result of that, not only BoG and FnF will become "non-canon", much in the same way the previous movies and GT have to be looked at, but also the 2008 special, hence I highly doubt we'll even ever hear about Abo, Kado or Tarble in DBSuper.
I think that, unlike Beerus and Whis, they see Tarble lacking the potential to become and interesting character.
The way to achieve Super Saiya-jin God will need to be different from what we've seen in BoG as well, taking into account the fact that Pan hasn't even been thought of, let alone conceived. And then we'll move on to the Fukkatsu no F arc, and I'm pretty hyped about that too, as we'll - most likely - get to see, beyond what we've seen in the movie, Goku and Vegeta's decision to train with Whis, Freeza training and Goku and Vegeta somehow achieving the stage of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
Z shouldn't have ended the way it did, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai 10 years later and the introduction of Uub, as whatever happens during the arcs in DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and the picture doesn't really fit. By the time of Uub's appearance and that last Tenkaichi Budokai, there's nothing to indicate that Goku and Vegeta have attained the stages of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, or that they have been dealing with Beerus, Whis, Champa, Champa's attendant and whatever new characters will be introduced in the 6th Universe arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
So what would you guys like for Goku's outfit when they go to Universe 6? His BoG outfit, his F outfit, his EoZ outfit or something completely new? I was fiddling with the Extreme Butoden sprites and his F outfit with EoZ(anime) colors looks really good and I'd be totally down for that.
Image
Between those, I honestly would prefer the BoG outfit. Goku's outfit, as well as Vegeta's, in Fukkatsu no F aren't as appealing to me as their already known ones. As for the outfit worn in the last Tenkaichi Budokai, I've never been a real fan, especially due to the color scheme. In both Fukkatsu no F and in EoZ Goku's outfit makes him look too relaxed, unlike Vegeta, whose outfits make him appear always battle-ready. I'd rather see Goku maintaining his BoG outfit as it's the color scheme he has worn throughout the entirety of DB and DBZ with some minor exceptions, and the same goes for Gohan when he's fighting (although my personal favorite outfit as far as Gohan goes is his Cell Games outfit, with the cape on).
______________________________________________________________________________________
My theory is that whereas Super Saiya-jin God drastically increases the maximum power of a Saiya-jin, enables him to absorb energy, makes his Ki undetectable to non-gods, etc., Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is a complete mastery of the Super Saiya-jin God particular stage and achieved much in the same way any form of Super Saiya-jin is, which means it brings back to the Super Saiya-jin's natural thirst for battle, while I'm sure it still enables the Saiya-jin's Ki to be undetectable by non-gods.
Regarding Super Saiya-jin God, it's said by Beerus himself that Goku's talents for fighting somehow enabled him to "assimilate" that level of power into himself, so after first turning SSG, even if he wasn't physically in the stage, he basically had all the powers and characteristics of Super Saiya-jin God. We saw him in these circumstances when fighting Beerus both in his base form and Super Saiya-jin form and while training with Whis and fighting Freeza in Fukkatsu no F. At that point even if Goku doesn't actually undergo the physical transformation into Super Saiya-jin God, he (and Vegeta, who must have achieved SSJG as well at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F) has all the characteristics of the SSJG stage, namely the massive power increase, ability to sense godly Ki, etc.
We've already seen Goku going through the process of achieving Super Saiya-jin God in BoG (although the way to achieve it in DBSuper will necessarily be different), but one of the things that happened in between BoG and Fukkatsu no F that I'd like DBSuper to show is how exactly Goku and Vegeta eventually realize there is a further stage/evolution from Super Saiya-jin God and achieve Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
I love Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin when the aura is flaming, but I don't think it looks too good when there's no aura. For example, when Vegeta is about to finish Freeza off, the blue color on his air somehow doesn't look too right, but that's just the color they went for. They could have chosen to have no recoloring at all, but in the end the entire thing about transforming into any stage of Super Saiya-jin is a physical transformation which includes a recoloring of the Saiya-jin's body-hair. Nobody ever complained about having the Saiya-jin turn golden during/as a consequence of a transformation into any stage of Super Saiya-jin, so the recoloring shouldn't be such a problem.
I read some of you discussing Super Saiya-jin 2. It's basically the first real stage of Super Saiya-jin beyond the "regular" Super Saiya-jin. The first Super Saiya-jin stage had a total of four different sub-types: normal Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Full Power. Super Saiya-jin 2 adds little change to the Super Saiya-jin's appearance, but the power increase is massive and it looked fantastic on teen Gohan when he thrashed Cell at the Cell Games. We could argue that Super Saiya-jin 2 is the real follow-up to the first, regular Super Saiya-jin stage, and the only or first one that TRULY "goes beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin", as Goku, Mirai no Trunks and Vegeta so frequently comment during the Cell arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
I don't mind a new way to ssjg as long as it gets to hang around for a while and Gokû gets to learn and show off any fun form unique powers like that one he never figured out at the end of BOG.
I don't mind if they change the BoG ritual, but I like the aspect of teamwork/community it introduced, that it is not attainable just through training -- I hope they don't change that, even if they make it so it only needs 4 people or something. He can then later incorporate that new power and make it his own through training, but I liked the idea in BoG that there are things they couldn't do without collaborating.
The whole background of the Saiya-jin ritual explained by Shenlong in Battle of Gods was intended both to put the Saiya-jin as a race in a different light (as in, not as naturally violent and evil as they're portrayed in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs), namely by introducing the concept of "good-hearted" or "pure-hearted" Saiya-jins on Planet Vegeta, and also to precisely turn a new SSJ transformation into something that could only be achieved with the help of others, which contrasts with the well-known ways of reaching other levels of Super Saiya-jin (by an explosion of anger, in the "regular" Super Saiya-jin's case, by training, in the cases of Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, by completely mastering all aspects of the Super Saiya-jin state, in the case of Super Saiya-jin Full Power, by another explosion of anger and/or through rigorous training and natural abilities and talents in the case of Super Saiya-jin 2, and through immense training and latent fighting abilities in the case of Super Saiya-jin 3).
The concept of being able to reach a particular stage only with the help of others might be interesting or even touching and emotional to some, however Goku himself states more than once that he isn't quite pleased with the fact that he couldn't attain the stage by himself in BoG, although he eventually manages to reach it by himself afterwards (whether by undergoing the actual physical transformation or by - as pointed out by Beerus himself - "absorbing" that stage into him, enabling him to have the power and abilities of the SSJG state even in his base form).
The fact that Goku is at first far from pleased with the fact he couldn't get to the SSG stage by himself alone only goes to show, or rather confirm, that he's quite proud himself. Vegeta may be all about pride, but Goku, as a pure Saiya-jin and fighting maniac, also has his fair dose of pride himself.
I've never seen Super Saiya-jin God (or Super Saiya-jin 4, in GT, for that matter) as part of a direct sequence of SSJ transformations and stages, but rather separate stage(s) that can only be achieved through some special method. Since the events in BoG and Fukkatsu no F are going to be, or have already been indeed basically made "non-canon" and there's no way they can use the exact same procedure for Goku (and Vegeta) to reach SSJG, I'm quite curious and hyped to see what they came up with as the method to reach it. Later on, as far as SSJGSSJ is concerned, I assume both Goku and Vegeta just realize at some point that they can upgrade the SSJG stage by completely mastering its characteristics and adding the natural and latent fighting and violent aspects of a Super Saiya-jin transformation, while still keeping the advantages of the SSG stage, namely the ability to sense godly Ki and the massive increase in power. Ever since I was first introduced to the concept of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin I thought of it as an upgrade to Super Saiya-jin God, keeping all of the latter's advantages and being slightly stronger as far as sheer destructive power is concerned.
If they had kept both Bog and Fukkatsu no F as canon direct continuations of the main timeline of Z, then at some point Vegeta would have had to reach the Super Saiya-jin God stage just like Goku did before he (and Goku) could attain the state of SSJGSSJ. If they had gone that road, and they didn't, whether we like or not, it would be extremely interesting to see both the process of Vegeta turning SSJG through the ritual, Vegeta "absorbing" the state just like Goku did in BoG and then Goku and Vegeta's decision to go and train with Whis. By the time of the events of Fukkatsu no F, Vegeta is basically finally at the same exact level of power as Goku both in his base form (when he fights Whis both he and Goku are in their base forms but have all the abilities of the SSJG stage) and in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin state.
I guess none of this really matters now, as, although Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin have been and will be introduced in DBSuper, they have been and will be introduced in different settings and circumstances, and at a different, earlier time.
I'm actually still in the process of "deleting" the events of BoG and Fukkatsu no F and "turning" them into "non-canon" stuff just like the other movies and GT need to be looked at. It's not easy, as the stories were quite phenomenal, especially BoG's, and it took me some time to "assimilate" them as direct canon continuations of the events of the Majin Buu arc in Z in the 10 year gap between Kid Buu's defeat and the last 3 episodes of Z (Tenkaichi Budokai and introduction of Uub). Toriyama didn't really need to retcon BoG or Fukkatsu no F at all, but this has been thoroughly discussed previously and the best conclusion we can get to is that he did so so that we could properly explore and expand Beerus' and Whis' backgrounds, as well as the entire process of the transformation into Super Saiya-jin God, with more time. He definitely wanted to turn the main elements from BoG and Fukkatsu no F into differently-told entire arcs covering a number of episodes without any sort of time restraints typical of movies.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
I mean, they could also just get much more powerful in SSGSS. There's a world of variation within one form (Namek SSJ Goku vs. Cell Games SSJ Goku; adult SSJ2 Gohan vs. Majin Vegeta).
Goku as a Super Saiya-jin on Namek against Freeza, the first time we were introduced to the concept of any form of SSJ (besides Vegeta's mentions about it earlier in the arc), is much, much weaker than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin Full Power at the Cell Games against Cell. There was an enormous amount of instances of fighters surpassing each other's powers throughout the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, a new, stronger fighter is introduced almost in every 5 episodes on average during the entire saga, things got quite hectic on that department, as they in fact did in the Freeza and Majin Buu arcs. That's one of the major points of DBZ: to have a new villain introduced with a level of power surpassing that of previous enemies, and the need to attain new stages and overcome their limits so they can keep up and keep surpassing both themselves and the others on a constant basis. Adult Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan might be slightly weaker than teen SSJ2 Gohan, but he's still not that much weaker than Majin Vegeta, who's basically exactly on par with Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku when they fight early in the Majin Buu arc. Piccolo himself struggles to compare Majin Vegeta's strength to that of SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games when Vegeta is beating the shit out of Majin Buu, although he ends up conceding that Vegeta is even beyond Gohan when he thrashed Cell.
The potential for developments and reaching of new stages in the Saiya-jin race might just be virtually limitless. While I've never regarded Super Saiya-jin God or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (or Super Saiya-jin 4 in GT, for that matter) as direct follow-ups of all the other previous Super Saiya-jin stages, but rather separate states achieved through a different special method, we could argue that there might be and probably is room for limitless improvement in terms of power and new SSJ states even beyond Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. That's basically what they mean when they refer to the fighting-race Saiya-jin as battle maniacs capable of basically unbelievable feats, with seemingly no limits to how strong they can get and how much they can improve even when they're supposed or thought to have reached their final evolution.
Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek is slightly stronger than 100% Freeza, Mirai no Trunks is slightly stronger than that, SSJ Vegeta against #19 is slightly above that but weaker than #17 or #18. It took the achievement of a new SSJ sub-type state within the first Super Saiya-jin stage for the Saiya-jin to fight on par or above the Jinzouningen, Piccolo and Cell: Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, the stage Vegeta is when he fights Cell, who in his second form is much stronger than #17 or #18. Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Mirai no Trunks is even stronger than SSJ Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, but weaker than Cell in his perfect form. Goku and Gohan in their Super Saiya-jin Full Power stages at the Cell Games are close to Cell in his perfect form in terms of power, but Cell still has the upper hand; it took another transformation, the one which TRULY goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin" to kill Cell, Super Saiya-jin 2. Teen Gohan as a SSJ2 is much stronger than Cell in his perfect form, but slightly weaker than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2 when they fight in the Majin Buu arc, while both of them are weaker than any form of Majin Buu. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan are much stronger than Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2, but still weaker than more than one form of Super Buu, who at his strongest could only be beaten by Vegitto, who at the time of his introduction was basically twice as strong as a Super Saiya-jin 3 or Ultimate Gohan and pretty much the strongest character of the entire series (even when compared to movie 12 Gogeta, who isn't even canon). After that, it took the likes of Beerus and Whis to surpass Vegitto, and I would place Super Saiya-jin God Goku in BoG (and DBSuper) in between Vegitto and Beerus. Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Vegeta are slight improvements in terms of destructive power when compared to Super Saiya-jin God, but they're still below Beerus and Whis and most likely Champa and his attendant.
This is a quite short version of the power increases and character surpassings as the sagas progressed, not anything even close to a detailed, full list of power levels by fighter. I have my own detailed version of that which is obviously subject to debate, and I've never shared it with anybody.
If at some point, most likely in the 6th Universe arc, we get to see new villains with a level of power similar or beyond Beerus and Whis, either they'll have to team up to defeat them or some new stage of Super Saiya-jin beyond SSJGSSJ will need to be attained. This is just speculation, we know literally nothing about the 6th Universe arc besides the fact that there will be a search for a new set of Dragon Balls, although, after the introduction of already-known characters such as Beerus, Whis and Freeza in his Golden form, I imagine Toriyama has prepared some sort of insanely powerful villain. If that happens, I hope we get to see major fights and dramatic turns of events with really messed-up psychotic villains such as what we had in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, the Majin Buu arcs.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I don't mean this to turn into a power level debate, but here's a basic and not too detailed list of power increases including only Super Saiya-jin stages and the respective time at which they were present and against whom they fought at each stage, along with the arc in which it was first shown or attained.
From weakest to strongest:
1- Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs 100% Freeza on Namek - Freeza arc)
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goten (Majin Buu arc)
3 - Super Saiya-jin Chibi Trunks (Majin Buu arc)
4 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan (at the RoSat while training with Goku - Cell arc)
5 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Gohan (vs #17 and #18 in Trunks' timeline - Jinzouningen arc)
6 - Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks (vs King Cold and Freeza - Jinzouningen arc)
7 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (when he comes back to Earth and meets Mirai no Trunks - Jinzouningen arc)
8 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs #19 - Jinzouningen arc)
9 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (vs #19 and #18 - Jinzouningen arc)
10 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks (vs Cell in his second form - Cell arc)
11 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta (vs Cell - Cell arc)
12 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Trunks (vs Cell in his perfect form - Cell arc)
13 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan (at the Cell Games - Cell arc)
14 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku (vs perfect Cell - Cell arc)
15 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks (vs Majin Buu - Majin Buu arc)
16 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan (vs Dabura and Majin Buu - Majin Buu arc)
17 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan (vs Cell - Cell arc)
18 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (after becoming Majin Vegeta and against Goku in the early Majin Buu arc and against Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
19 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku (vs Vegeta in the early Majin Buu arc and against Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
20 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks (vs Super Buu - Majin Buu arc)
21 - Ultimate Gohan (vs Super Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
22 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (vs Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu and Beerus - Majin Buu arc)
23 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with the influx of power from all the others during the first attempt at becoming Super Saiya-jin God in BoG - Battle of Gods)
24 - Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (vs Super Buu - Majin Buu arc)
25 - Base Vegeta (against Whis with "assimilated" power of SSJG - Fukkatsu no F)
26 - Base Goku (against Beerus and Whis with "assimilated" power of SSJG - Battle of Gods)
27 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku (vs Beerus - Battle of Gods)
28 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (vs Golden Freeza - Fukkatsu no F)
29 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku (vs Golden Freeza - Fukkatsu no F)
Not counting the movies or GT, of course. Although BoG and Fukkatsu no F will be or have already been indeed become "non-canon", I chose to include them and the respective Super Saiya-jin states shown there, also and especially due to the fact that we'll eventually see them in the BoG and Fukkatsu no F arcs within DBSuper itself.
And it's quite reductive to reduce this list to Super Saiya-jin states and characters only, but I'm kind of interested and amused at what your reaction and response to this will be. Even restricting this to Super Saiya-jin-only stages and fighters, this list can easily be altered here and there.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
By setting it before Videl is pregnant, Super's gotta do its own thing with ssjg. Be it dropping the number of required saiyajin down by one, by roping in Tarble somehow to act as the 6th conduit, or by going deeper and completely changing how ssjg's obtained. The way Super's setting things up nothing's off the table until proven/disproven.
They could have chosen not to retcon BoG and Fukkatsu no F and instead start the series either at this point and then do a time-skip to BoG and then another one to Fukkatsu no F (and showing the stuff we know would have happened in between), or start the series right after Fukkatsu no F, with the immediate introduction of the 6th Universe arc, which is truly the absolutely new material to which we've never been exposed at any level before anywhere and about which we know basically nothing at this point beyond the fact that there will be new versions of Dragon Balls involved.
Having Beerus awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later is the catalyst for the absolute need to remove the events of BoG from the main storyline as a direct canon continuation of Z, for more than one obvious reason. Pan hasn't even been thought of at this point, let alone conceived. Both BoG and Fukkatsu no F will from now on need to be looked at as "non-canon" side-stories, pretty much the same way the other 13 movies and GT need to be looked at.
The same goes for the 2008 Jump special, it will basically be "erased" from the main timeline, which means they'll only choose to bring back Tarble if they want to, but, unlike Beerus or Whis, I believe they fail to see in Tarble the potential to become an interesting character, although, in fact, he doesn't in fact lack that much; Toriyama may have thought that the sudden introduction of Vegeta's brother, who nobody ever heard of, mentioned once or even knew existed throughout the entire Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs was done too hastily. On top of all of these reasons, there are many mentions and flashbacks during all the arcs throughout DBZ of the events regarding the Saiya-jin race before, during and after its genocide, and we're always told there were only 4 surviving Saiya-jin (Vegeta, Kakarotto, Nappa and Raditz). Why would Raditz, for example, choose to ignore Tarble as a surviving Saiya-jin, or why would Vegeta never even mention he had a living brother? Because of shame due to his inability to be a strong fighter?
Anyway, since they recognized the potential of Beerus and Whis as characters and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and/or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin as new stages for Goku and Vegeta to be able to catch up with these new insanely powerful fighters, I'm quite hyped to see exactly how much the settings and circumstances have changed in terms of how these events will now take place.
Regarding the way to achieve SSJG, I highly doubt for some reason that one of the things they'll maintain when compared to BoG is or will be the ritual to achieve the Super Saiya-jin God stage, even if it would be a version of the ritual with a smaller number of Saiya-jin needed. The ritual we saw in BoG had two main reasons to be introduced: one, to make a link to the last 3 episodes of DBZ and bring Pan into the picture, and two, to put the Saiya-jin race in a different light when compared to the descriptions of a battle-thirsty, fighting race with violent evil tendencies we were given in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, namely with the introduction of the concept of "pure-hearted" or "good-hearted" Saiya-jin Planet Vegeta.
The constant references to Freeza, the Saiya-jin race, Planet Vegeta, etc. throughout the series is proof enough that the background of the entire Saiya-jin-Freeza relationship and the events leading up to the genocide of the Saiya-jin and the aftermath is probably the best storyline in Z. Besides, the Freeza arc (with the Saiya-jin and Namek sagas leading up to it) was so absolutely epic and Freeza was - and is - such a charismatic villain that even in the last new material in recent years - the 2008 special (Freeza and even the Ginyu Tokusentai are mentioned, Abo and Kado are former elite members of Freeza's army), Episode of Bardock (needless to even expand on this one, the main villain is both Freeza himself in the beginning and an ancestor of the Freeza family throughout the movie), Battle of Gods (the defeat of Freeza and the destruction of Planet Vegeta are mentioned several times right at the start of the movie, and even King Vegeta is shown) and Fukkatsu no F (the entire movie is dedicated to the revival of Freeza himself, that's how charismatic he is, he needed an entire movie even partially named after him) - there are not only constant references to Freeza and his army but, in fact, reappearances of Freeza himself. It probably goes to show that the Freeza arc was probably the most DBZ-defining and memorable saga in DB and DBZ not only for a large chunk of hardcore DBZ fans but also to many of the authors involved in the creation of new animated material for DBZ in these last years. You don't really see 5% as much in terms of references to the Jinzouningen/Cell arc as you do regarding the Saiya-jin/Namek/Freeza arc and its background, the genocide of the Saiya-jin, either in the Majin Buu arc or in the post-Majin Buu new material we've been given in the last years with the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Makai wrote:
Can they not just place the Jump Special a few months before Super? It already seems like it could easily fit between Buu and Super.
They could theoretically retell the story of Tarble, Abo and Kado and reintroduce them in the series in a different setting and circumstances when compared to what we saw in the special itself, like they'll do with BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and if they chose to do so it would indeed need to be at a different time, since the 2008 movie "happened" 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. However, I doubt they see in Tarble, Abo or Kado the potential to make for an interesting adding to the series' timeline (in Tarble's case, for the reasons I mentioned before). They didn't really put too much effort as far as story-telling and character background goes in the 2008 movie, it was made for entirely different reasons, but the greatest purpose it served was to reopen the curtain for completely new Dragonball visual material after 11 years of inactivity. Up until recently and before we got to know the timing at which each arc within DBSuper is going to take place, the 2008 special was also considered to be canon and a direct continuation of the Majin Buu arc in Z, but now, just like BoG and Fukkatsu no F, it will be "erased" as non-canon material and will need to be seen as a side-story just like the 13 movies of Z or GT.
The sheer fact that they chose Beerus to be awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later pretty much changes everything surrounding the events of the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F. As I said before, they could have chosen not to place Beerus' awakening at this timing and just keep the story's timeline the way it was after BoG and Fukkatsu no F, with the following sequence of events: Majin Buu arc - 2 years - 2008 special - 2 years - Battle of Gods - a few months - Fukkatsu no F - 5 years - introduction of Uub; but instead in DBSuper we'll most likely get: Majin Buu arc - 6 months - first episodes of DBSuper - Beerus/Whis/Champa/Champa's attendant arc - Fukkatsu no F arc - exploration of the 6th Universe arc - 5 years - introduction of Uub. I'm just speculating regarding the timeline placement of the exploration of the 6th Universe, it could theoretically even be placed at a later stage, closer to the introduction of Uub, or even - theoretically - after the last episodes of DBZ, but I believe every event and arc within DBSuper at least up until after the exploration of the 6th Universe will take place many years before the introduction of Uub in those last 3 episodes of DBZ.
I highly doubt they'll pick up on any of the events and characters introduced in the 2008 special, unlike BoG and Fukkatsu no F, which were given careful thought and are basically going to be retold at a different time and setting and be given their own arcs within DBSuper to do so. Characters like Beerus and Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin are just too phenomenal and have too much potential to just be tossed away.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
By setting it before Videl is pregnant, Super's gotta do its own thing with ssjg. Be it dropping the number of required saiyajin down by one, by roping in Tarble somehow to act as the 6th conduit, or by going deeper and completely changing how ssjg's obtained. The way Super's setting things up nothing's off the table until proven/disproven.
Why would they have to change the story because of that?
Because the way to reach the Super Saiya-jin God stage we saw in Battle of Gods was by undergoing the ritual explained by Shenlong, which means Pan needs to be already in existence for it to work, and since DBSuper starts off with Beerus already awake 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later like in BoG, and since Pan hasn't even been thought of 6 months after the Majin Buu arc, let alone conceived, the same exact ritual can't take place. They could either go for a change in the ritual, by diminishing the number of Saiya-jin needed or some other modification, or they could go for a way to achieve SSJG through another method, namely by training and/or latent fighting abilities, which Goku (and Vegeta) have shown plenty of times throughout DBZ they possess. But undergoing the same ritual is absolutely out of the question.
______________________________________________________________________________________
[quote="Captain Space"][quote="GokuRules987"]I personally dont see why Super should go for more than 100 episodes because for one reason, i highly doubt the series will ever surpass DBZ because Toriyama's hardcore character designing days are simply over, all they're doing now is just milking the franchise and throwing some shitty comedy into it.
I mean after Battle of gods came out everyone was saying OMG this is going to be the first canon DBZ movie with Toriyama heavily involved as it was the continuation of the original manga. But now what do we get now? Same exact thing that happens to be in a different timeline with new rewritten antagonists. I mean where is the whole mystic excitement that GT was able to bring us? I have nothing to look forward here because all Toriyama is doing here is pulling the series back into the movies and changing certain things here and there. Just more laziness from him.
And I dont even know how i feel about the whole traveling to a different universe thing in search for super dragon balls. This might just end up being Namek saga 2.0 with some powerful new villain who happens to end up also searching for those super dragon balls aswel. Doesn't Toriyama understand that what made DBZ so successful is the originally and uniqueness of his story? You cant just ring that same bell twice and think that the same amount of people who looked at you once will look at you again and same as a crying wolf.[/quote]
And then there are those of us who enjoyed the comedy, didn't get 'mystic excitement' from GT and like the new character designs...[/quote]
Exactly. There simply is no way we can even compare DBSuper, or any of the recent material we got in the last few years, to GT. GT was a set of hastily-made-up quick stories invented right after everyone was already pretty much at a loss for ideas after so much creativeness for all the continuous DBZ arcs, plus it got partially or totally rid of fundamental characters with fantastic backgrounds, had a number of issues regarding power levels, Toriyama wasn't involved, etc. I mean, do we even have to point out, identify or list the number of things that went wrong with GT yet again? It's been done multiple times over the years. I was quite relieved they got "rid" of it and Toriyama himself said it was "non-canon" and more like a side-story, pretty much in the same way the 13 movies of DBZ were. I could finally wipe out GT from the series' main timeline and basically ignore it.
Of course, we can't expect DBSuper and any of the events and stories told in its arcs to be as bloody, violent or dramatic as they were in the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, considering the partially new target audience it's directed to and the huge change everything works today when compared to the 80's and 90's, but the sheer fact Toriyama is involved pretty much assures me that most details will be given significant thought and the degree of creativeness won't have dropped that much when compared to what he came up with in the best of DB and DBZ.
It basically gets down to this: DBSuper will never be as good as DB and DBZ were at the height of their intricate plots, dramatic settings and development of fantastic characters and backgrounds, but it most certainly won't be as lacking and disappointing (to avoid using other, stronger adjectives) as GT was.
In my view, the comparison doesn't even make sense, except for the mere fact that both DBSuper and GT (at the time the latter was made, not anymore) happen after the last major arc in DBZ, or due to the fact that the concept of a new set of Dragon Balls will be introduced. Other than that, I think we should all just put GT in its place, lock it there and instead focus on DBSuper.
I'm hyped about pretty much all aspects of the series, but obviously the 6th Universe arc is the one I'm most looking forward to, as we'll no doubt be introduced to some new insanely powerful villain or antagonist, the tone of the series will perhaps get a little bit more serious and we're talking TRULY entirely new material, unlike the BoG and Fukkatsu no F arcs, which contain elements we've been already introduced to in the movies, although in different circumstances and at a different timing (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, Golden Freeza).
______________________________________________________________________________________
Doctor. wrote:
It's not out of the question. A timeskip would fix all of those problems. Now of course it's unlikely they will do a timeskip so soon, and it'd be a stupid decision if they chose to; but I'm just saying it's not 100% impossible.
Well, yes, theoretically anything is possible and setting events up at different timings has the potential to solve virtually any problem, and in this case they could have Pan's time of conception retconned as well (which would mean that by the last 3 episodes of DBZ Pan would be much older, which would mean yet another retcon), but for some reason I believe that the "only" retcons we'll see as far as placing events in different circumstances and at a different timing goes will be the introduction of Beerus and Whis and the achievement of Goku of the stage of Super Saiya-jin God. Even the events of Fukkatsu no F don't theoretically need to be placed at a different timing when compared to what we saw in the movie, but we can only speculate. There really is no way to know when exactly each event and arc in DBSuper will take place until we actually get to see it.
I also think that they won't go for a timeskip at this early stage (from 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu to 4 years later, as in, at the timing of the events of BoG, by which time Pan already "exists").
______________________________________________________________________________________
Birusu16 wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
I wonder what planet both beerus and whis are going to?
I'm still hoping they go to the planet we saw in the first chapter. If not then the scene we saw in the first episode was likely the same scene we saw in chapter 1 with just a different take.
Barunks wrote:
Has there ever actually been official confirmation of how strong blue super saiyan is compared with SSG, Beerus, Whis, or SS4 or is everyone still speculating based upon their biases?
We can only speculate at this point, and maybe we'll never be entirely sure at all even after we get to see the expanded events in the BoG and Fukkatsu no F arcs in DBSuper, but I believe Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is merely a slight improvement both Goku and Vegeta came up with when compared to plain Super Saiya-jin God, by mastering all aspects of the latter, while keeping all of its advantages (ability to sense godly Ki, massive increase in power, ability to make non-gods unable to sense their Ki) and inducing the typical fighting and violent tendencies of the Super Saiya-jin state into the stage. SSGSSJ might be a little messed up and a mix of circumstances - as Goku himself says to Freeza in Fukkatsu no F, "it's a little complex and hard to explain" - but, anyway, that's the best theory I can come up with. On another note, some fans weren't happy with the way it looked, but in my particular case I prefer it to the way SSJG looked on Goku in BoG and would look on Vegeta (on Vegeta it would even be worse, he would cease looking as menacing and serious as he always does). However, I prefer it to plain SSJG only when the aura is flaming, I wasn't too happy when I first saw Goku and Vegeta as SSJGSSJ, for example when Vegeta is about to finish Freeza off. That colour in his hair just didn't seem right for some reason to me.
As for the power levels of Golden Freeza, Beerus, Whis, SSJG Goku, SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta, I believe the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin state makes the fighter slightly stronger than Super Saiya-jin God, but it's still not enough for Beerus or Whis. Vegeta AND Goku working together as SSJGSSJ would have a chance against Beerus, as Whis himself states, but only because there would be 2 against 1. On their own, neither would be able to beat Beerus even as SSJGSSJ, let alone Whis. We're not quite sure about the gap there is in power between Beerus and Whis, yet again we can only speculate, so I'm not even going to go that road, except for stating the obvious: in BoG it's stated by Beerus (and assumed by Goku) that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, as he's his teacher. What I was mostly surprised about in any of the two movies as far as new powers and stages goes was the level achieved by Freeza. We're talking about a fighter who had been overwhelmed in power as early as the Freeza arc itself; he didn't stand a chance against Mirai no Trunks, and Mirai no Trunks didn't stand a chance against #17 or #18, while these didn't stand a chance against Cell, and Cell in his second form didn't stand a chance against Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, etc., etc. Freeza's level of power was pretty much ridiculous when compared to an enormous number of fighters in many stages throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs - Goku even disappointingly refers to it as "in hindsight, not much of a challenge" in the 2008 special. Nonetheless, he managed to skip all of these humongous increments in power by so many characters in such a short time and by the time he shows up on Earth in Fukkatsu no F he's right on top of the list again, close to or on par with the likes of SSJGSSJ Goku, SSJGSSJ Vegeta, Beerus and Whis. His power level skyrocketed from what it was before in a way that it can be seen by some as a poor way to have him become a serious menace again after so much time and hard to believe and swallow. He must be indeed a prodigy and must also have trained through special methods to increase his power by this huge volume. We'll definitely be able to expand a little more on how exactly he managed to increase his power by this much in the Fukkatsu no F arc in DBSuper. At least I really hope so.
Hence, my list as far as the new characters and stages from BoG and Fukkatsu no F goes would be as follows (from strongest to weakest, and I'm going to leave Champa and his attendant out of it as we really have no idea at this point where they stand as far as power level goes, though we can conceive our own theories regarding that matter):
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
7 - Base Goku after having "absorbed" the abilities of SSJG
8 - Base Vegeta after having absorbed the abilities of SSJG
9 - Freeza in his fourth form after undergoing training
10 - Freeza in his first form after undergoing training (remember, he knocked Ultimate Gohan out with a single punch in this stage, although we could theoretically attribute this to Gohan's having let his guard down or some variation of this)
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Hence, my list as far as the new characters and stages from BoG and Fukkatsu no F goes would be as follows (from strongest to weakest, and I'm going to leave Champa and his attendant out of it as we really have no idea at this point where they stand as far as power level goes, though we can conceive our own theories regarding that matter):
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
7 - Base Goku after having "absorbed" the abilities of SSJG
8 - Base Vegeta after having absorbed the abilities of SSJG
9 - Freeza in his fourth form after undergoing training
10 - Freeza in his first form after undergoing training (remember, he knocked Ultimate Gohan out with a single punch in this stage, although we could theoretically attribute this to Gohan's having let his guard down or some variation of this)
This is a misconception I see a lot, but in the movie Golden Freeza was actually stronger than Goku until his power drained too much.
You're right. At some point in the restart of the fight between Freeza and Goku, just after Freeza turned into his Golden Freeza form, he manages to overcome Super Saiya-jin God Goku here and there, and Goku goes as far as saying that "he's losing somewhat". Since Vegeta's power in his SSJGSSJ stage is on par with Goku's in the same state, we can assume the result would be the same, Golden Freeza would be able to take the upper hand for some time. I deliberately chose to put Golden Freeza below both SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta both because of his inability to maintain that initial level of power he displayed when he fought SSJGSSJ Goku for the first few minutes and especially because I always had the theory that Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin was holding back a bit; all the way throughout Fukkatsu no F, even after witnessing Golden Freeza's power, he just comes out as way too relaxed and failing to recognize Freeza as a real menace, so it could be that all the time during the fight he wasn't really putting everything he had into it. It's just a theory of my own, it could be totally wrong.
______________________________________________________________________________________
DoomieDoomie911 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
But didn't Toriyama (or the new Super guide, can't tell which one) say it begins 6 months after Boo?
Kanzenshuu Dragon Ball Super Episode Guide wrote:
The series was announced to, “…follow the aftermath of Goku’s fierce battle with Majin Buu, as he attempts to maintain earth’s fragile peace.” It was later confirmed that the series is set slightly after the showdown with Majin Buu and will link up with the franchise’s most recent movies, Battle of Gods and Revival of “F”. The series’ story begins six months following the defeat of Majin Buu as a prequel to Battle of Gods, with Son Goku working as a farmer prior to heading off to train with Kaio as seen at the beginning of the movie and following Beerus waking up to search for the Super Saiyan God.
It could be that these first episodes of DBSuper will be the only ones placed 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu, and that they'll do a time skip to 4 years later and have Goku and the others meet Beerus and Whis at the same timing as we've seen in BoG, although certain events within or surrounding BoG would necessarily need to be erased (just for example, Goku's fight against Beerus as a Super Saiya-jin 3 on Kaiou-sama's planet, Beerus' and Whis' struggle to find out who or what exactly SSJG is, if anything at all, and Beerus only waking up at that time and talking about his dream and the Oracle Fish's premonition).
This potential time skip - which I honestly don't think will happen - would enable BoG to be seen as "almost canon", since the only change between the events of the movie and the arc within DBSuper would be the fact that Beerus was already awake 6 months after the Majin Buu arc instead of waking up 4 years later and the fact that he already knew about the concept of Super Saiya-jin God instead of having dreamed about it and later looking for him/the way for a Saiya-jin to reach that stage by asking Shenlong, all the time not even being sure if it was just a stupid dream or not and whether that fighter/stage existed or not.
Hell, if that time skip actually happened, even the 2008 special could potentially be maintained as a canon continuation of the timeline.
The link between the introduction of Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and the Fukkatsu no F arc will one way or the other be much easier to make, though, thankfully.
______________________________________________________________________________________
DragonBoxZTheMovies wrote:
Just wondering, do you guys think Super's existence has had any impact on whether we get more movies in future? Now that Toei has a constant source of new DB material that Toriyama is also involved in, is all of the focus going to be on Super over the next few years? Or do you think we'll still be seeing more movies that tie in with the new series in some way?
Yet again we can only speculate on how long (in terms of number of episodes) DBSuper is going to run, but if it runs nearly as long as DBZ did I'm sure that eventually we'll get movie "side-stories" much in the same way we got them in the 4 DB movie,s the 13 DBZ movies and GT. However, as far as those 13 movies go, most of them have direct references to major events or characters mentioned in the canon series' timeline and storyline, so if they do happen at some point in the future - during or after DBSuper's run - I'm pretty positive that we'll get mentions to Beerus, Whis, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God, Freeza, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin and whatever new characters/villains/antagonists we'll get to see in the introduction of the 6th Universe arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Herms wrote:
Ha! It says the reason Vegeta and family are going to this amusement park is because of that time when Vegeta and Trunks were training together, and Vegeta promised to take Trunks to an amusement park if he managed to hit his face. Was that confirmed already? I know I didn't make that connection at all until now.
In the printing we see along with the concept arc we clearly get to see the episode early in the Majin Buu arc when Vegeta is training in the gravity room along with Trunks for the upcoming Tenkaichi Budokai that precedes the saga. It's really a relief to have it confirmed that they managed to remember that and link up the events of Vegeta's family trip in episode 2 of DBSuper to something uttered by a character 18/19 years ago.
I've always automatically connected this promise by Vegeta as a family man/father figure to his son as the one made by Goku to Gohan to take him fishing in the Saiya-jin saga in episode 29 of DBZ before he goes off to fight Vegeta, which eventually he ended up keeping as well (although he didn't even remember it by the time he actually keeps it) during those 10 days leading up to the Cell Games. Goku and Vegeta are pretty much compared to each other in virtually every single aspect, even when it comes to how they deal with and interact with their respective sons and families.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I know this is a long shot and more than pure speculation and more like wishful thinking, but just out of curiosity, if at some point in DBSuper they thought of reintroducing/bringing back some characters from the distant past of DB and DBZ, which one would you look forward to the most?
I personally would like both Raditz and Bardock to return, even if only for a brief period of time, also and especially due to the fact that they're members of Goku's family. I've always wondered what would be Goku's reaction to be face-to-face with his father, and the other way around. Goku would also probably get to accept Raditz as his brother by this point, instead of when he was first introduced in the first episodes of DBZ. Goku has a natural tendency to forgive his enemies, even the most fearful and hateful ones, provided that enough time has passed. Bardock did get his screen time and his "revenge" as a character with such great potential and excellent background in Episode of Bardock, but that's non-canon and the story was conceived mostly to, after all these years, have Bardock get his revenge if not on Freeza himself, then on someone from Freeza's family line. The sense of desperation we share with Bardock himself throughout his special was an issue we finally got resolved that way. Pretty much everyone is a Bardock fan and sympathizes with his "cause". For me personally, as a hardcore Vegeta fan, it's just like getting to see Vegeta beating the shit out of Freeza in Fukkatsu no F after being ridiculed, humiliated, beaten and killed by him in the Freeza arc, after years and years of abuse with the knowledge that it was Freeza who committed the genocide of his race, killed his father and had him under his rule as a puppet for over two decades. All these years later, we get to see Vegeta taking revenge for all of this by personally taking care of Freeza (I just wish he would have been the one to actually just kill him, which he was just about to do before Freeza decided to blow up the planet). I read somewhere earlier some of you discussing how Vegeta should or could, or that it would be a good idea, to have Vegeta get to kill Freeza in the Fukkatsu no F arc in DBSuper instead of Goku like it happened in the movie, but, yet again, I doubt it will happen. As far as solving the return of Freeza in a much more powerful stage in the Fukkatsu no F movie goes, they thought it would be the ideal thing to have BOTH Vegeta and Goku beat/kill Freeza, which in a way was exactly what happened. They very deliberately had Vegeta step in and also beat Freeza to a pulp before Goku got to actually kill Freeza, but Goku still "had" to be the one to finally kill Freeza and save the day. The going-back-in-time trick they came up for Whis to have was the way to get around the issues of having BOTH Goku AND Vegeta (finally) be the heroes this time around. Vegeta is and probably will always be "one step behind" Goku, or at most equal to or on par with him, which is why in Fukkatsu no F they thought that in the end it really had to be Goku to yet again deliver the final, decisive blow. Vegeta's evolution as a character throughout the arcs in DBZ has definitely earned him his place as a "hero" figure, but Goku has been the real protagonist and hero figure ever since he was introduced as a kid in the first episodes of DB and all the way throughout the entire series, except for that little small period of time in and slightly after the Cell Games arc in which it's actually Gohan who was the only one who could get things done and be his supposed "successor" both in terms of power and main protagonism in the series, which was a concept they went for after the Cell arc but just didn't work during the Majin Buu arc, much less after that.
______________________________________________________________________________________
ArchedThunder wrote:
Beerus-sama wrote:
Herms wrote:
Beerus: “I only slept 39 years this time. I want to look sharp.”
Does that means that these scenes with Beerus destroying planets from episodes 1 and 2 are not in the same time where Goku and company events are happening?
Maybe he just wants to be nice and fresh, maybe as soon as he woke up he went destroying planets and now wants to be clean and relaxed from a bath because he's still a little tired from not getting a long sleep.
I mean the Kaioshin scene from the end of episode 1 makes it clear that he's awake and has been destroying planets.
We can only speculate at this point until we get to see what actually happens when we see the episodes, but the most likely scenario is that the scenes from Beerus in that planet we saw in episode 1 of DBSuper were taking place at a different timing than the ones from Goku + Goten, Mr. Satan + Majin Buu, etc. (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu). The possibility of a time skip between these first smooth episodes of family interaction and the timing at which Beerus meets Goku and the others seems to be growing, although, from what we already know, one thing they'll definitely have to change is the whole setting in which Beerus (and indeed the others) will get to know/hear about the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, as by the time Beerus appears on Earth in DBSuper he already seems to know much more about the Saiya-jin, the Super Saiya-jin and the Super Saiya-jin God "legend" on Planet Vegeta, in contrast or when compared to what happens in BoG, where he's just almost clueless about it.
The time skip from the BoG arc and the Fukkatsu no F arc within DBSuper will be much easier to get around, no major issues there, although a lot of potential for expanding the storyline and get to see stuff we haven't seen in Fukkatsu no F (namely Freeza's training method, Vegeta reaching SSJG himself, Vegeta's and Goku's decision to go off training with Whis - I'd really like to have them give these events just a bit of screen time).
______________________________________________________________________________________
Chuquita wrote:
Re: screen time
We're only 1 episode in on Super; there's no saying Gokû won't get temp-sidelined here the way he did in Z. He hasn't really fully main-charactered since the 23rd tournament.
That said, I don't want any new main character replacement because I can't unsee it as someone making their OC fanfic dreams come true and I just can't bring myself to care about a replacement. I was disappointed enough having ssjg replaced by blueper. Replacing Gokû himself would make me drop the series.
Goku, beyond anyone else in any given time in the series, and Dragon Ball are pretty much synonyms. The only time all the way throughout all the arcs in DB and DBZ at which they really seemed to deliberately have someone else "replace" Goku as the main protagonist (on a permanent basis), or at least have that fighter be on par with him, was when Gohan surpassed him by becoming Super Saiya-jin 2 in the Cell Games saga, overcoming his (and everyone else's) level of power, being the one to (be able to) defeat that particular villain (Cell). Even the opening from the Majin Buu arc in DBZ reflects that, Gohan is shown pretty much as the intended "new Goku" (they even "killed" Goku back in the Cell Games to ensure this would go even more smoothly), but it just didn't work out and Goku was again the one not only to finish off Kid Buu and, in more recent events, achieve a level of power closer to the likes of Beerus and Whis. Even Vegeta has surpassed Gohan by Fukkatsu no F, and we need to remember that there are many instances in which Gohan is stronger than Vegeta, for example when he reaches his "Ultimate" form. Before DBSuper/Fukkatsu no F, Vegeta was still below Gohan's level of power, but Gohan lacks the same "always-training-to-get-stronger" fighting-maniac spirit both Goku and Vegeta possess, as pure Saiya-jins. They're clearly going for the setting in which Goku and Vegeta are the only "good guys" from the Z team - and everything we've been seeing lately in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper confirms it - that seem to be able to keep up with these new insanely powerful enemies, who go beyond even the strongest form of Super Buu or Super Vegitto.
I can't really see the need some fans have to have him "pass the torch" to someone else and let the "new generation" take over in terms of power/protagonism. Let it go, Goku will always be the main one, followed/seconded by, or, at most, ALONG with Vegeta. All the others will get their screen time, fighting time and proper character developments and interactions, and they most definitely should have, but in terms of power and protagonism we're down to Goku and Vegeta. They even had Vegeta reach new stages and overcome the degree of the gap in power between him and Gohan which was present at the time of the end of the Majin Buu arc, in order to fit the purpose of having him not only be the second-main protagonist after Goku, or along with Goku, in terms of power, by achieving SSJG and SSJGSSJ.
Gohan fans might be a little (or quite a lot) disappointed at the way they're treating Gohan in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper as a protagonist and/or fighter, even in terms of degree of power, but he had two chances to become the strongest Z fighter during DBZ (Cell Games and when he became Ultimate Gohan and thrashed Super Buu) and failed to reach new stages and get stronger and stronger even that that, which is partially what Dragonball is all about.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Herms wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:
sintzu wrote:
A new Q&A has been released :
http://www.db-z.com/dragon-ball-super-q ... ushi-kido/
Sorry if it's been posted already.
got an english version?
A bit quick, but here:
Q: Will Goku get stronger than SSGSS?
A: This is the #1 thing to look forward to in “DB Super”. I want him to get stronger, myself.
Q: Will a new Shenlong appear?
A: Things called “Super Dragon Balls” will appear!
Q: Where will the fights in “DB Super” take place?
A: This time Lord Beerus is appearing too, so the battles will expand out into the universe.
Q: Will Jaco from Revival of “F” appear?
A: Of course he will. All sorts of characters will play a part in “DB Super”.
Q: Will enemies Goku defeated in the past reappear?
A: I wonder. Personally, I hope they will (laughs).
Q: Will a new rival for Goku and the gang appear?
A: Yes. And there won’t just be one!
Q: About how strong will these new rivals be?
A: Roughly strong enough to be on par with Goku.
Q: Will the battle scenes power up too?
A: That’s right. Watch out for Goku’s fighting style as he grows stronger by training!
Q: Will there be scenes of Freeza training, which weren’t depicted in Revival of “F”?
A: No comment. Personally, I’m conflicted over whether or not I want to see that (laughs).
As for the first one, and going back to my own theory, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is already an improvement - even in terms of level of power, but also in other aspects - when compared to Super Saiya-jin God, but I'm sure that at some point in DBSuper, probably during the exploration of the 6th Universe arc, Goku (and perhaps Vegeta) will reach another, even stronger stage which will either be an improvement to SSJGSSJ itself or a replacement of it.
Regarding the degree of strength the new characters that will be introduced in DBSuper the series will have in the series (and this leaves out Beerus and Whis, whose level of power we're already pretty much aware of after BoG and Fukkatsu no F), there must be some insanely powerful villain (or rather, villains) later on after the Fukkatsu no F arc, at which time I hope things will get close to what we've seen throughout the second half of DB and the entirety of DBZ in terms of drama/fighting/psychotic arch-villains. I just wonder how they'll compare to Beerus and Whis themselves (and to Champa and his attendant as well, although, as far as these two go, I'd say they're almost or about as strong as their counterparts). Perhaps the only way to take down the new villains in the 6th Universe arc will be to have Beerus and/or Whis step in along with Goku and Vegeta, all of them working together at their strongest, to avoid some major cataclysm such as the destruction of the Universe(s). Wouldn't be the first we got to see team-work between the Z fighters and even between previous mortal rivals to take down a common enemy. The concept of Beerus cooperating to do something other than his job - destroying planets - is interesting, and actually we already got to see that in Fukkatsu no F, although he labels the experience of saving a planet rather than destroying it pretty "pathetic".
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
Have to agree...I love Beerus, he's the best antagonist DB has ever had, but having him have a hand in what was essentially Freeza's defining act of tyranny/destruction is pretty dumb.
If by "best antagonist" you mean he's the strongest, then sure (although Whis is actually stronger), and pretty much everyone - myself included - is a fan of him taking in account his character-power combo, but if you did a poll I'd bet you that Freeza would be "elected" as the most charismatic, psychotic, maniacal, genocidal, evil villain of all time in all of Dragonball. Hell, he's so charismatic they even "had" to bring him to life again in Fukkatsu no F - and hence, DBSuper - after all the time between Freeza's arc and the post-Majin Buu era, after numerous instances of cameos (Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin, getting beaten by Paiku-han right after the Cell Games, his appearance along the other past villains watching the fight between SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu in Hell, his appearance in movie 12, among others), and have him become somewhat a menace by reaching a degree of power close to/on par with the most recent stages and levels of fighting ability seen in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, not to mention the previous DBZ arcs (Jinzouningen, Cell, Majin Buu arcs), by which time his (previous) level of power was all but absolutely overwhelmed.
They needed to match his level of power to his degree of charisma. We can argue whether or not it was done the right way in Fukkatsu no F, but that was definitely their intention.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
If by "best antagonist" you mean he's the strongest, then sure (although Whis is actually stronger), and pretty much everyone - myself included - is a fan of him taking in account his character-power combo, but if you did a poll I'd bet you that Freeza would be "elected" as the most charismatic, psychotic, maniacal, genocidal, evil villain of all time in all of Dragonball. Hell, he's so charismatic they even "had" to bring him to life again in Fukkatsu no F - and hence, DBSuper - after all the time between Freeza's arc and the post-Majin Buu era, after numerous instances of cameos (Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin, getting beaten by Paiku-han right after the Cell Games, his appearance along the other past villains watching the fight between SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu in Hell, his appearance in movie 12, among others), and have him become somewhat a menace by reaching a degree of power close to/on par with the most recent stages and levels of fighting ability seen in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, not to mention the previous DBZ arcs (Jinzouningen, Cell, Majin Buu arcs), by which time his (previous) level of power was all but absolutely overwhelmed.
They needed to match his level of power to his degree of charisma. We can argue whether or not it was done the right way in Fukkatsu no F, but that was definitely their intention.
No, I meant best as in the best character. You're right, if you did a poll Freeza would probably win. But I'm not talking a popularity contest, I'm talking my opinion, and my favourite antagonist in terms of character and personality is Beerus.
I'd have a hard time myself choosing just one as my favourite antagonist. What I can definitely say is that my LEAST favorite villain is Majin Buu, in any of his forms (especially in his fat form, which is how he was first introduced to us). Pretty much every antagonist throughout DB and DBZ were (at least at the time of their introduction) absolutely evil, which is both the reason for some fans to love them and the reason for others not to pay much attention to them. Beerus can't be seem in the same light as Vegeta (in his early days), Freeza, Future #17 and #18, Cell or Kid Buu (to stick to the series and refrain from including the likes of Brolly, etc.); he's a deity, relaxed, insanely powerful, can't be really deemed "evil" (nor "good"), and overall possesses a comic/extremely powerful combo which we haven't really ever seen before in an antagonist in Dragonball. He certainly can't be deemed a villain (nor an ally or a "member of the team", either). We wouldn't need it to confirm this, but the part in Fukkatsu no F where he replies to Bulma saying he's "no-one's ally" and to Freeza saying "do what you want, I don't care, but do it farther away" is definite, conclusive proof of that.
Don't get me wrong, like I said in my previous post I'm a fan of Beerus myself. I can't really see how even somebody who's not a DBZ fan at all and is not familiar with the storyline and watches BoG and, to some degree, Fukkatsu no F wouldn't become at least amused by his character while at the same time afraid/shocked at witnessing how insanely powerful he really is. He has some small similarities to Goku - insanely powerful, loving food, relaxed attitude. I think that they really did a great job as far as showing just how strong he was goes in BoG by having him thrash the strongest form of Goku on Kaiou-sama's planet with no effort whatsoever right in the first minutes of the movie. From that point on, we were all left with the constant, lasting impression that he was all but untouchable, although - to a certain degree of dissatisfaction for me - Whis is above him, and there might be stronger villains than him in the 6th Universe arc.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Small correction of my previous post: Piccolo Daimao/Piccolo at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is/are my favourite antagonist(s) - I have Piccolo Daimao's kanji tattooed on my chest.
Another small correction: we don't really get to see maniacal, absolutely evil characters in DB up until the appearance and introduction of Piccolo Daimao. However, in DBZ pretty much almost every villain (major or not) all the way throughout the series is absolutely evil and genocidal, for one reason or another (Vegeta, Freeza, Future #17, Future #18, Cell, Kid Buu, or even Raditz, Nappa, Zarbon, Dr. Gero, Yakon, Dabura). If we included the movies instead of refraining from it, then the likes of Cooler, Tullece and his henchmen and especially Brolly would be right at or close to the top of the list as well, as far as "evilness" and violent tendencies goes.
______________________________________________________________________________________
It's as simple as this:
Before we got all the leaks and info on the storyline of the arcs of DBSuper, the sequence of events was the following:
- Kid Buu is killed (Majin Buu arc in DBZ)
- 2 years later Tarble, Abo and Kado arrive on Earth (2008 special)
- 2 years later Beerus awakes after 39 years of sleep, searches for the Super Saiya-jin God, fights Goku and goes back to sleep again (BoG)
- Slightly after that Vegeta reaches the SSJG stage himself, Goku and Vegeta go off to train with Whis and Goku and Vegeta both attain SSJGSSJ (off-screen)
- Slightly after that Freeza is resurrected, undergoes training, challenges Goku and Vegeta and gets killed again (Fukkatsu no F)
- 5 years later everyone reunites for a new Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub is introduced (last 3 episodes of DBZ)
Taking into account the way they're redoing the storyline in terms of the introduction of new characters and placing the timing of events, this is the actual sequence we'll get to see in DBSuper:
- Kid Buu is killed (Majin Buu arc in DBZ)
- 6 months later we get to see these first episodes of family interaction, Beerus wakes up and starts destroying planets (DBSuper)
- Champa and his attendant are introduced and Beerus sets off on a mission to find who/what Super Saiya-jin God is (Beerus arc in DBSuper)
- Goku and all the others meet Beerus and Whis (and perhaps Champa and his attendant), fight them, Goku reaches Super Saiya-jin God through some different method and Beerus and Whis leave (Beerus arc in DBSuper)
- Vegeta reaches SSJG himself, Goku and Vegeta decide to train with Whis and reach Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (Beerus arc in DBSuper)
- Freeza is resurrected, undergoes training, challenges Goku and Vegeta and gets killed again (Freeza arc in DBSuper)
- 6th Universe arc (6th Universe arc in DBSuper)
- 5 years later everyone reunites for a new Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub is introduced (last 3 episodes of DBZ)
This is only speculation, there could indeed be a time-skip and the events we saw in the first episode of DBSuper could be happening at different timings (as in, Goku + Goten or Mr. Satan + Majin Buu happen 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu whereas Beerus is eating and destroying that planet 4 years later), but there's no reason for them to go this road and pretty much everything we saw in the first episode makes it almost obvious that everything (every arc within DBSuper) will be happening at the same time (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu), which means that both the setting AND the timing of the events of BoG are being replaced. That's it, pretty simple.
______________________________________________________________________________________
MasterVampire wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
I would like to see Mr. Satan try to fight Freeza similar what he did with Cell. Mr. Satan has meet every main villain in DBZ expect for Freeza.
Freeza would probably have the same reaction as Cell:
"His ignorance is painful...."
Taking into account Freeza's absolutely ruthless personality, beyond finding Mr. Satan ridiculous, he would kill him, which is pretty much the reason why we've never seen and will never see such an encounter.
Freeza is the only major villain throughout all the arcs of DBZ who kills every single one who just happens to annoy him or even because they're just standing there, let alone for disappointing/betraying/challenging him, and the one who displays the least amount of respect towards life in general. He is more egotistical, ruthless, genocidal, maniacal, narcissistic and evil than anyone else in the series, hence, the perfect villain.
This doesn't mean he's my favourite one. I prefer many aspects of Cell, particularly in his perfect stage, or Vegeta in his early days back in the Saiya-jin saga (where he was pretty much a "smaller" version of Freeza himself, after two decades under him and being molded by the latter). The major villain I like the least is Majin Buu, in any of his forms but especially in his fat form. Choosing not to take into consideration the movies, of course, otherwise the insanity and psychotic personality of Brolly would push him close to the top. If we include DB, then, for those who really know the series, I think it can't even be argued whether or not Piccolo Daimao is a maniacal psychotic villain with a degree of evilness close to Freeza. After all, he's the incarnation of evil, but he adds arrogance and ruthlessness to that. Initially he was introduced as an attempt (rather successful one) to add more drama and seriousness to the series, but as they expanded the story in DBZ it becomes clear that his son/reincarnation, although at first ALMOST as evil as Piccolo Daimao himself, had the potential to eventually become absolutely "good", which he does right in the Saiya-jin saga. By the Freeza or Jinzouningen arc, Piccolo is pretty much 100% good. It took Vegeta almost the entirety of DBZ to undergo the same process.
It's rather fun to see how the fact that a given villain is particularly evil makes him such a great enemy character. The more ruthless and evil they are, the more we admire them and at the same time sympathize with the good guys' cause of taking him down.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Metrite wrote:
So, does it presently look like this new series is going to just retell the stories of BoG and FnF in its own way? If so, I guess those movies will effectively become like the first 3 DB movies; same characters and matching/similar story, but not the version that counts.
That is probably in part why I feel so disinterested in this new series so far. Taking place before the end of Z already causes enough issues, but now we already know several major plot points to come, like both the "new" transformations Goku and Vegeta will be reaching. Fat Beerus (I like that name better lol) and Lady Whis being the first new things revealed made me start to question if we'd even be getting much creativity. Oh well, I guess this universe 6 and Super DBs thing is something new that sounds interesting at least. I just hope it doesn't take too long to get there.
Although they could have chosen to basically maintain the previous sequence (Majin Buu arc - 2008 special - BoG - Fukkatsu no F - last 3 episodes of DBZ), there's more than one reason that makes it inevitable to have Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God Goku introduced in a different setting and circumstances. We can go back and forth on whether or not that was really necessary and they're doing it the right way, but I guess that they saw so much potential in Beerus' and Whis' background as characters that they wanted to expand on their stories and on their encounter with Goku, Vegeta and the others throughout a number of episodes, without the restrictions typical of a movie. The same applies, to a shorter degree, to Fukkatsu no F. It will get its own arc and we'll probably get to see a number of events that happened before and during Fukkatsu no F in the Freeza arc in DBSuper (namely Freeza training, which pretty much everyone, including myself, seems to be craving for - it would also serve the purpose of helping us understand a little bit better how Freeza managed to overcome such an enormous gap between his previous maximum level of power and the power of the likes of SSJG Goku, Beerus, Whis, SSGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta).
We're basically going to have Beerus and Whis meet Goku and the others in different circumstances and at a different timing, as well as Goku reaching Super Saiya-jin God through another method when compared to the events of BoG, which will officially become "non-canon". It'll be the same characters and basically the same events, but at a different time and with some minor (or major) changes - everyone is still wondering how they'll go around the issue of having to change the way Goku reaches the stage of SSJG. We can only speculate at this point, we'll never know for sure until we get official info or, more likely, get to see what happens in the episodes themselves as they come out.
The "link" between Beerus' arc and Freeza's arc in DBSuper is what I'm looking forward to the most after the 6th Universe arc (which is, as you rightly said, the arc in which we'll actually get to see previously totally unexplored material, characters and villains), due to the fact that I really want to see Vegeta reaching Super Saiya-jin God himself (perhaps he'll reach it at the same time, or soon after Goku does it), Goku's and Vegeta's decision to go off to train with Whis and just how and why Goku and Vegeta managed/decided to go further and reach yet another stage (Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin).
Theoretically, the 2008 special can continue to be considered as a canon continuation to the main timeline (there's nothing there that would generate plot holes or contradict the fact that by that time - 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu - Goku had already attained the stage of SSJG and met Beerus and Whis. The fact that he didn't use the SSJG form throughout that special was obviously due to the fact that he didn't need to, taking into account the lack of challenge Abo and Kado represented.
I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, but unless the 6th Universe arc happens after that (which is obviously not going to happen), pretty much everything that happens throughout all the arcs of DBSuper will inevitably and eventually lead to that. We get 10 years to explore - and that's what they've been doing with the recent specials and movies, and now with the series -, but on the other hand I bet that Toriyama wishes he could go back and refrain from setting the end of DBZ 10 years after the Majin Buu arc. It's just a personal issue I have (not liking those last 3 episodes of DBZ). It just doesn't really feel like by the time of the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the appearance of Uub they've gone through all of these major events (meeting Beerus, the revival of Freeza and even the exploration of another Universe).
______________________________________________________________________________________
sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub.
You're in luck cause if Videl is announced to be pregnant then that'll mean Toriyama is rewriting the ending.
Yes, that would be the ideal thing to do. If we need to go through the process of "decanonizing" BoG and Fukkatsu no F, where's the harm in rectonning those last 3 episodes of DBZ, have Pan be born much sooner than she was in DBZ (a number of months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 6 years later) and even be able to - if they choose to do so - keep the ritual to achieve Super Saiya-jin God exactly the same it was in BoG? They can pretty much do whatever they want with the timeline and the timing at which events and characters are introduced, we're the ones who need to adapt to it, not the other way around. This would mean that if the last 3 episodes of DBZ are basically going to be "erased from the timeline's history", we don't need to worry about the inconsistencies with her age. 10 years later she would obviously be 9 years old instead of 4, but that doesn't even matter if they're indeed going to retcon the last 3 episodes of DBZ.
______________________________________________________________________________________
"I'd personally rather not have Toriyama retcon the last chapters of Dragon Ball. Seems like a silly move to do so many years after the ending has already came out and been cemented in the fandom."
I partially agree. I don't quite like the concept of altering events which were assimilated as canon continuations of the main timeline of the series, but taking into account that we'll be "forced" to adapt to the fact that BoG and perhaps the 2008 special and Fukkatsu no F never "happened" (at least the way they did, in the circumstances they did and at the timing in which they did) due to retcons, it would make a retcon of those last 3 episodes of DBZ easier to accept. But anyway, I'm not really a fan of "decanonizing" events after they've been assimilated as canon. We can only pretty much speculate at this point, we'll have to wait and see exactly when Pan is conceived, when Beerus and Whis go to Earth, how and when Goku reaches the Super Saiya-jin God stage, etc. I personally like to know in advance what will or won't be canon, but in this case there's no alternative but to wait and actually see what happens as DBSuper's episodes come out, and then finally be able to put the entire sequence together, which is just impossible to do right now.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Cold Skin wrote:
With obviously no timeskip ahead anytime soon, since Battle of Gods has already started in Super, it's going to be either one or the other:
either Videl being pregnant during Beerus' visit is taken out (meaning altering the Super Saiyan God concept), or Pan's age in the epilogue (and perhaps the epilogue itself) is rewritten.
This is interesting, but since it's mostly Battle of Gods that gets rewritten/enhanced so far, chances are that the problem will be solved by taking Videl's pregnancy out.
I didn't think they would actually rewrite Battle of Gods a few weeks ago, but now proofs pile up to indicate we already are in a new updated, more detailed version of Battle of Gods right now.
And I'm okay with it, I've always liked the concept of updating/re-thinking/improving/refining stuff. Nothing should be cemented as definitive, there's always room for improvement and saying "THIS is no longer the definitive stuff, THAT is what it's like now after improvements".
They basically realized the entire potential Beerus and Whis as characters have, along with the concept of Super Saiya-jin God, and decided to go and do an arc-long version of BoG, without the time restrictions typical of a movie. They COULD have chosen not to alter a single thing in the timeline sequence we've had before (Majin Buu arc - 2008 special - BoG - Fukkatsu no F - last 3 episodes of DBZ), but by now, after all these discussions, I'm pretty ok with having Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God be introduced like they were in BoG although in different circumstances and at a different timing.
______________________________________________________________________________________
JEFFMAN219 wrote:
Am I the only here thats kind of disappointed that the first half of Super will just be re telling Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F?
Taking into account the fact that we're being presented with an entire new series with who-knows how many new episodes, you can look at the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F as only the first two major arcs within DBSuper after these first smooth family episodes. I'm pretty sure they won't stretch the Beerus and Freeza arcs for too long, so we'll get to the exploration of the 6th Universe arc sooner than you might expect, and then you'll be able to witness truly entirely new stuff, characters, villains, events and stages. I'm not at all disappointed, I pretty much welcome anything Toriyama has to offer us at this point with open arms.
______________________________________________________________________________________
TheGmGoken wrote:
What if U6 was the manga universe or the GT universe?
I agree with all the previous responses and reactions to this.
The events depicted throughout the 153 episodes of DB and the 291 episodes of DBZ need to be seen as a continuous sequence of the one and only timeline.
GT, the 4 DB movies and the 13 DBZ movies don't "happen" in a different timeline or in an alternate universe, they're rather side-stories which depict "what-if" scenarios. They were also made to explore interesting new characters and circumstances with some potential in terms of background and character development. In actual fact, the only movies from the 13 DBZ ones that COULD fit into the series' main timeline without causing any inconsistencies or plot holes would be movies 9 (right after the Cell Games, and I mean right after it, as Goku's still with Kaiou-sama in the Snake Way) and 13 (soon after Kid Buu's defeat).
All the others WOULD have "happened" in the following circumstances:
Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.
Movie 2 - It WOULD have happened IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc, since he uses Kaio Ken in the movie.
Movie 3 - IF there had been an additional Saiya-jin to have survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta and later came to Earth to find Kakarotto. It WOULD have taken place IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc before Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu and Piccolo died.
Movie 4 - IF there had been an additional Namek-sei-jin who survived the extreme weather conditions on the planet that led to Piccolo being sent to Earth and IF Goku and the others somehow had managed to either beat Freeza after Piccolo is resurrected and Vegeta dies but before he became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin or had left Namek before that, for some reason.
Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Movie 7 - IF the only two Jinzouningen which actually ever existed had been #19 and Dr. Gero (no #16, no #17, no #18, no Cell), and after either Goku or Vegeta and Piccolo had beaten them. It would have happened right after that.
Movie 8 - IF two additional Saiya-jin had survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and IF one of them WOULD just happen to be the Legendary Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD have happened if Paragas came to Earth during the 10 day-period between Cell's announcement of the Cell Games and the Cell Games themselves, after Goku and Gohan leave the RoSaT, since Gohan is a Super Saiya-jin.
Movie 10 - IF Brolly ever existed and had come to Earth. It WOULD have taken place during the period of time Gohan trains Videl and Goten.
Movie 11 - IF Brolly ever existed. It WOULD have taken place right after the previous movie (and after the Tenkaichi Budokai that led to the Majin Buu arc, but without the arc itself ever happening, as there WOULD have had been a Tenkaichi Budokai which for some reason had a final in which #18 lets Mr. Satan win in exchange for quite a large sum of money).
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)
Both the Bardock special and the Trunks special depict events which happened off-screen in DBZ's storyline (in Trunks' movie case, before he decided to go back in the past to warn Goku and the others about the Jinzouningen, which generated a different timeline - pretty much similar to what happened in Back to the Future 2)
The 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F were up until very recently considered to be follow-up continuations of DBZ's main, one and only timeline, and the 2008 special by itself can still be considered to be canon, as there's nothing there that contradicts what we've been seeing or hearing about in DBSuper, but BoG and Fukkatsu no F have also been basically turned into side-stories which are going to be retold, with the introduction of the same characters and stages but at a different timing and in different circumstances.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Not quite--Piccolo is already fused with Kami in the movie, and Dende is the new Kami of Earth.
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)[/quote]
If that had happened, there'd be no Gotenks and mystic Gohan, both of whom are in the movie.
Other than that, your assessments are all accurate, though.[/quote]
You're right, I screwed up on those 2. I made this up in a rush, though. I'll come up with the circumstances in which those 2 WOULD have been possible after giving it some thought.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Not quite--Piccolo is already fused with Kami in the movie, and Dende is the new Kami of Earth.
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)[/quote]
If that had happened, there'd be no Gotenks and mystic Gohan, both of whom are in the movie.
Other than that, your assessments are all accurate, though.[/quote]
You're right, I screwed up on those 2. I made this up in a rush, though. I'll come up with the circumstances in which those 2 WOULD have been possible after giving it some thought.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I bet you we'll see some Vegeta anger in a matter of hours.
By the beginning of the Majin Buu arc he's already a family man but still has a lot of anger deep down inside of him, but his decision to let Babidi control him and kill hundreds of people at the stadium was probably the last instance of really evil stuff done by Vegeta. After the Majin Buu arc, the transition is complete. However, the fact that he has become a family guy and one of the "good ones" fighting for good and out of love and sense of protection of his family, "friends" and life in general shouldn't mean he's lost his character and the way he interacts with others or presents himself and now become Mr. Nice Guy all of a sudden. That's never going to happen, it wouldn't be Vegeta if it did. Piccolo never has or will lose his degree of seriousness either, even after having become a full-fledged, 100% good fighter, but that also has to do with the typical Namek-sei-jin personality.
Piccolo completed the transition within one or two arcs, but it took Vegeta, who was first introduced as absolutely ruthless and evil and a smaller version of Freeza, almost the entirety of DBZ to undergo the same process. By the Freeza or Jinzouningen arcs Piccolo's evil has all but disappeared, but Vegeta's transition was much more gradual and incremental.
He'll just go insane in the middle of the annoying crowd of "human insects having fun". Obviously they're not going to have him kill anybody - the show can't get that serious this early and Vegeta is pretty much done with his killing days -, but he might just have an explosion of rage and destroy something while deliberately doing it in a way so that he doesn't kill anybody in the process.
We've got to sympathize with him, that's a hard position to be in. Being introverted and thinking lowly of pretty much every single being that surrounds you can't make it easy to interact between them in the context of a society.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Goddamn it, I can't believe we'll be watching another episode one week after that insane experience we went through exactly one week ago. Can't believe we're getting one new episode a week and we'll all be watching it at the same time again. This will become routine, but a wonderful one. I'm super-hyped. Goddamn it, I love this.
Honestly, tears came into my eyes last week when the first visuals from DBSuper showed up shortly after the clock reached 9h00. And right at the second episode we're getting Vegeta's version of a family-trip, the reappearance of Kaiou-sama, some more of Beerus' awesome character, Vegeta going insane in the middle of a human crowd and who-knows what else.
Can't believe that at 31 years of age in 2015 I would be watching a new series from DBZ in real-time in Japanese. I honestly thought it would never happen. It's an entirely different experience from Kai and the 2008, 2013 and 2015 movies, as in, it's not something that happens one time, you get to absorb it fully and add it to the rest, and it's done; you get to see new canon stuff with the entire environment of Dragonball in original Japanese exactly at the time it's happening in Japan and all around the world, and the experience gets to be repeated every single week.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I mean, it's been 18 years. Some of my friends weren't even BORN when Dragonball had ended. It's really hard to grasp the enormity and significance of this event. I'm sure most of you share the exact same sensation. I'd be glad to have survived this long even if it was just to be alive and kicking and present while this is taking place and I get to follow it as it happens.
______________________________________________________________________________________
And the opening theme has me totally addicted. Can't get it out of my head (and don't want to). It just adds to the whole experience I've described. They could have hardly chosen a better opening visuals + opening theme combo.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Captain Space wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Does anything that a new android/cyborg will appear in Super? I don't want it to happen, but with the whole going to other worlds then I could see it happening.
Seems unlikely, given the recent more fantasy-ish push, gods and all that, but not impossible I suppose. (I mean, yeah, RF had plenty of sci-fi, but Freeza's main thing in that was a nigh-magical transformation.)
Well DB had #8, DBZ had #16-Dr. Gero and Cell, GT had Super 17. The idea of Super giving us another cyborg is not too far off. I won't want a new cyborg in Super because I feel like the idea is overdone.
If I had to guess, taking into account we'll be dealing with the concept of another Universe and the fact that the most recent antagonists (Majin Buu and Beerus) are of that sort, I would go with either deities, demons or aliens for the new villain(s). The possibility I view as the least likely is actually cyborgs. Once again leaving out the movies, DB had Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo, who were demons/aliens, the Saiya-jin arc and the Freeza arc had aliens, the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs had cyborgs and the Majin Buu arc had demons or magical creatures (on the evil side) and deities (on the good side). All the concepts based on movies (the Jinzouningen, especially #16, are clearly influenced by the Terminator - Terminator 2 had come out 2 years earlier -, while Freeza in his third form is based on the xenomorph from the Alien franchise, for example) or other sci-fi fictional stories have been explored throughout Dragonball. They're most likely going to keep with the trend of gods/deities, but we can only speculate until we get info on the 6th Universe arc. They did a fantastic job with the concept of Beerus and its particular character (a deity who doesn't take sides and can't really be deemed neither "evil" nor "good"), although, despite the fact he is an antagonist, he can't really be called an "enemy", much less a "villain". After all the creative process they went throughout DB and DBZ, pretty much almost all ideas have been explored, so it's virtually impossible to see something entirely new, totally and absolutely unlike anything we've been before.
______________________________________________________________________________________
MajinMan wrote:
20 minutes to go guys. The first episode had much more tension, but the second episode made me realize that this is going to happen almost every week for who knows how long. I still can't believe something like this is actually happening. It's unreal.
Don't know if you read the last page, but you basically just said what I did about 2 hours ago:
"Goddamn it, I can't believe we'll be watching another episode one week after that insane experience we went through exactly one week ago. Can't believe we're getting one new episode a week and we'll all be watching it at the same time again. This will become routine, but a wonderful one. I'm super-hyped. Goddamn it, I love this.
Honestly, tears came into my eyes last week when the first visuals from DBSuper showed up shortly after the clock reached 9h00. And right at the second episode we're getting Vegeta's version of a family-trip, the reappearance of Kaiou-sama, some more of Beerus' awesome character, Vegeta going insane in the middle of a human crowd and who-knows what else.
Can't believe that at 31 years of age in 2015 I would be watching a new series from DBZ in real-time in Japanese. I honestly thought it would never happen. It's an entirely different experience from Kai and the 2008, 2013 and 2015 movies, as in, it's not something that happens one time, you get to absorb it fully and add it to the rest, and it's done; you get to see new canon stuff with the entire environment of Dragonball in original Japanese exactly at the time it's happening in Japan and all around the world, and the experience gets to be repeated every single week."
"I mean, it's been 18 years. Some of my friends weren't even BORN when Dragonball had ended. It's really hard to grasp the enormity and significance of this event. I'm sure most of you share the exact same sensation. I'd be glad to have survived this long even if it was just to be alive and kicking and present while this is taking place and I get to follow it as it happens."
:lol:
______________________________________________________________________________________
He didn't kill anybody, of course, but I'm pretty sure he would have killed the octopus if it weren't already dead.
First time we ever saw Vegeta actually refusing physical contact with Bulma.
Looks like Vegeta is again obsessed with surpassing not only Goku, but, as he said, any and whatever guy that happens to show up in the Universe (link to incoming Beerus' and Whis' appearance).
Also looks like they're retelling the story of BoG, as we already knew and discussed thoroughly, in different circumstances and at a different timing, but pretty much moving along quite fast and going through the same lines we saw in BoG (Beerus struggling to remember the name, Beerus saying it's a premonition, Whis saying Beerus' premonitions aren't usually accurate, and Beerus replying "are you making a fool of me?"). These were all lines present in the first appearance and interaction between Beerus and Whis in BoG.
Meaningful conversation between Whis and that stupid creature. It's a good thing Beerus just decided to blow the planet and the whole race up, ahah.
Beerus appears to love the sight of planets exploding just as much as Freeza (that's what it reminded me of at the end, especially when Freeza bursts of joy as Planet Vegeta explodes in flames).
______________________________________________________________________________________
I'm getting the feeling, after these 2 episodes, that they're introducing Beerus and Whis at quite a large speed, while at the same time reconnecting or reintroducing the main and secondary characters, for those who missed the 2008 special and BoG. That's pretty much the point of the way the series is starting. We'll get to the somewhat serious Beerus/Whis vs Goku/Vegeta/all the others interaction pretty soon. I hope it takes a more serious and dramatic tone than what we saw in BoG.
Beerus did seem just as obsessed about his dream/premonition in this episode as he did in BoG, but this time he could actually see a physical form.
Of course we all know where this will lead and how it will end, but I've got a feeling that Beerus' interruption of the party on Earth will be more dramatic/violent than in BoG, where it took him - thanks to Vegeta - quite a while to finally lose his temper.
We had been talking about Vegeta's development as a character and the gradual and incremental decrease in the degree of evil he has in his heart, which was pretty much entirely gone by the end of the Majin Buu arc. He acknowledged Kakarotto as the "Number 1" when fighting Kid Buu, but now we actually heard "Number 2" for the first time. He's regressed and yet again is obsessed with being basically not only better than Goku, but above anyone else in the entire Universe. Taking into account this slight change, I doubt he'll act the same way towards Beerus as he did in BoG up until the fighting broke out. He'll most likely identify him instantly as a new enemy/competitor to surpass, instead of being afraid (or rather, scared shitless) of him.
It's a good thing to have Vegeta recover his full obsession to become the best. That's basically what always made him surpass himself and the others and reach new levels and heights in terms of power. We didn't get to see any of this from Vegeta in BoG. That's what you'd expect from a series done with the careful thinking and planning and proper character development, in contrast to what happens in the movies, due mostly to the typical time restrictions.
BoG was all in all pretty comic and smooth. These ominous appearances by Beerus in both episodes give me the feeling that he, along with the whole setting in which he'll show up, will be more serious in this retelling.
I'm extremely pleased with the way they're slowly but steadily (re)introducing Beerus in DBSuper. They're moving along fast and if we didn't know him from BoG and Fukkatsu no F we'd all think he's a pretty evil menace - which we know he isn't, he has a very particular personality and can neither be considered or deemed "evil" nor "good" and doesn't take sides - after watching him blow up two planets and exterminate two races in two episodes.
______________________________________________________________________________________
sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
It's a good thing to have Vegeta recover his full obsession to become the best. That's basically what always made him surpass himself and the others and reach new levels and heights in terms of power.
With him saying more then once he doesn't want to remain #2,hopefully by that he means he wants to reach Ssj3 and Bulma getting hit will probably be the thing he needs to do it.
Before DBSuper was announced, let alone getting info about it or watching the episodes, I've always had the theory that at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F he had reached - or become able to reach - Super Saiya-jin 3, just like Goku, to put him on par with him, and then underwent the same ritual to reach Super Saiya-jin God, which basically enhances the maximum power level of a Saiya-jin by a given degree instead of being an actual incremental transformation like all the other stages of Super Saiya-jin. According to this theory, Vegeta basically WOULD have underwent the same exact process Goku did (although he achieved each stage at a different, later time), and was as strong as Goku in each stage: Super Saiya-jin - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai - Super Saiya-jin Full Power - Super Saiya-jin 2 - Super Saiya-jin 3 - Super Saiya-jin God - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. Of course, with the retelling of the events of BoG in different circumstances will mean that IF all of this actually happens to Vegeta, it will happen during the Beerus arc in DBSuper or shortly after, in the first episodes before the Freeza arc. He might just skip Super Saiya-jin 3, though, my theory is just that, a theory.
______________________________________________________________________________________
rolmanus wrote:
How far do you guys think the creators will go in changing stuff from the movies? Honestly I hope that if they change anything big, it will be the time-reversing ability of Whis.
I seriously hope that they will scrap this, it gives way too much power to the character, and since they are on Goku's side, it takes away so much of the tension, since there is really nothing to fear even in the worst scenario, since Whis can restore it (okay, okay, I know, the Dragon Balls themselves are taking away the risk of something bad happening permanently, but still..). Unless of course we'll go to heights where even Whis is killed... I believe that it should either be scrapped, or be given a very serious limit.
(Sorry if my english isn't the best, it's not my first language.)
In fact, the whole environment of Fukkatsu no F made the viewers' feel the lack of real tension and the inability by Freeza to, even after reaching a level of power close to/on par/above Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Vegeta, become a serious menace. On one hand, we had Beerus and Whis present, so even if Goku and/or Vegeta failed, they'd eventually take care of Freeza themselves. On the other hand, as you pointed out, Whis' time-reversal ability, although limited to 3 minutes, pretty much provides him with the ability to basically undo any damage done by anyone whatsoever, rethink the strategy and turn totally hopeless circumstances into an easy victory. On yet another hand, I've always defended Goku was holding back as SSJGSSJ during his fight with Freeza and even Golden Freeza, given how relaxed he always is throughout the movie, even when/after fighting Freeza in his Golden form, which suggests he never really ever viewed Freeza as capable of defeating or killing him or the others. Besides, both Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin would be eventually able to take care of him. All of this combined can turn the experience of Fukkatsu no F as a failed attempt to have Freeza become a serious menace, so the entire atmosphere of the movie wasn't in any significant way more serious, dark or dramatic than the one in BoG.
______________________________________________________________________________________
sintzu wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Kai already ended with Goku leaving with Uub. I think it would be wrong if they retcon the ending to DBZ so soon.
Keep in mind that the ending was written at a time where Toriyama was tired of the franchise and just wanted to get done with it so him not being happy with the ending and thinking up a new (hopefully) better one now that he's happy writing for the franchise again isn't surprising to me.
I''ve never liked the way DBZ ended in those 3 last episodes, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. I have no qualms with Goku having a full-fledged "disciple", but I just never welcomed Uub as a character with open arms, unlike most, or almost all others, for some reason.
Since they're retconning BoG and Fukkatsu no F while introducing the same characters and stages even though in different circumstances and at a different timing, there would be no harm to go one step further and actually retcon DBZ's ending, have Pan be born much sooner than she did and be 9 years old by the end of DBZ, but somehow I just think it's not going to happen. I believe Toriyama views the whole sequence of events throughout DB and DBZ as the one and only main timeline, unlike the movies and GT (and by "movies" we now obviously need to include the 2008 special, BoG and Fukaktsu no F). I highly doubt they'll go for a retcon of those last 3 episodes, but if they do go down the road of major changes in the timeline's which would cause inconsistencies and plot holes regarding the 10-year-later ending of DBZ, it would just become non-canon and we would need to accept it, just as we "learned" and went through the process of accepting GT, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as non-canon anymore.
After so many years of coming up with storylines, characters and backgrounds, in an entire massive and intensive creative process, by the Majin Buu arc he was pretty much starting to run out of ideas (understandably), hence the unsatisfying ending of DBZ. They should have never gone for a 10-year time skip between episodes 288 and 289 back in 1996. On the other hand, exploring that 10 year gap provides us with numerous possibilities for character development and events, which is basically what they've been doing in recent years in this process of revitalization of DBZ with the 2008, 2013 and 2015 movies that led to DBSuper as a full-fledged series after 18 years, but if they keep the last 3 episodes as they were, unless the exploration of the 6th Universe arc (or some potential follow-up arc) happens after a massive time-skip, which I highly doubt, whatever happens during the 10 year gap (introduction of Beerus and Whis, Goku (and Vegeta) reaching Super Saiya-jin God, introduction of Champa and his attendant, Freeza's resurrection and return to Earth, Goku and Vegeta training under Whis, Goku and Vegeta achieving Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, exploration of the 6th Universe and the resulting who-knows how many and how powerful antagonists villains) will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and by that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the appearance of Uub it just doesn't seem that they went through all of those events.
______________________________________________________________________________________
[/quote] Except if you tried to hold your breath while in the vacuum of space your entire body would explode. Which is why breathing in space is impossible, and why I wish people would use the term "SURVIVE in space", because NOBODY can breath in space.[/quote]
That's right, "breathing in space" is physically impossible to ANY race, as there's no oxygen to breathe in the vacuum. Those who belong to races which can SURVIVE in space, like Freeza, can most likely do so due to race-restricted abilities of resorting to a different method of keeping the oxygen in their bodies, creating it somehow or some other species-restricted ability. I've always defended the theory that those who can't survive in space and still do so and even fight there at full power - we've seen Bardock, Nappa, Vegeta and Goku standing/flying/fighting IN the vacuum of space - are able to do so by generating a Ki barrier or shield (visible or invisible one) to conserve the oxygen and keep from being in direct physical contact with the chemicals outside of that barrier. The fact that Brolly saves himself and Paragas from the destruction of Planet Vegeta - although, as we discussed before, it didn't really "happen" - by generating a Ki barrier pretty much helps to strengthen that theory.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Kai already ended with Goku leaving with Uub. I think it would be wrong if they retcon the ending to DBZ so soon.
TripleRach wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:
I'm just imagining the internet uproar if we don't get a timeskip to 4 years after Buu and despite that Videl is pregnant during the confrontation with Beerus. Guess that would mean not only would Super be ignoring GT, but it would ignore end of Z as well, I'd be okay with that honestly.
They could always change the ritual to require one less Saiyan, so Pan wouldn't be necessary anyway.
Or there's Tarble, but there haven't been any hints of him appearing in Super so far.
Yeah I think they could change the ritual to become a SSjG to be a different number or they do something wacky like wish back Radditz as a good guy.
They can pretty much do whatever they like with the circumstances in which the state of Super Saiya-jin God can be reached. They seem to be keeping almost all of the key-aspects of BoG, though, but if one major thing may change it will be the way to attain SSJ. They could either: 1- keep the exact same ritual - which means there needs to be a time-skip at some point to have Pan be already conceived, have Tarble be (re)introduced (unlikely, he lacks the potential to become an interesting character showing up out of nowhere, being Vegeta's brother without him, Nappa or Raditz ever even mentioning him to ANYBODY), have either Raditz or Nappa or, who knows?, even have Bardock be resurrected (which I would love if it happened, as I always wondered and dreamed about an actual interaction between Goku and Bardock), but all of these instances of bringing back other Saiya-jin seem too far-fetched to me; 2- change the ritual by diminishing the necessary Saiya-jin by one; 3- invent another ritual, or; 4- go for a total and absolute change and have Super Saiya-jin God be a state that can be reached through another method and without the help of anyone else (Goku says more than once in BoG that he didn't particularly appreciate the fact he couldn't attain the stage by himself alone, although he later manages to do so and incorporate the state itself and even master it AND upgrade on it).
All of these are possibilities, ones more than the others, but unless we get more leaked info before it happens, we'll need to see what they've chosen when we see the actual episodes as they come out.
______________________________________________________________________________________
We could all postulate a scenario in which Cooler actually "exists" in the main timeline of the Dragonball universe and either never even came to Earth or did indeed come to Earth at some point during the 3-year gap between Goku's return from Yardrat and the Jinzouningen arc and was subsequently defeated by Super Saiya-jin Goku and/or Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as in, the same character/fighter still exists and some events related to him did indeed take place, but at a different timing and in different circumstances, and obviously off-screen. This would pretty much solve the GT issue of having Cooler showing up escaping from Hell, but there is no issue to start with, as the entirety of GT itself has to be considered "non-canon" and no longer a direct follow-up of the events of DB and DBZ in the series' main timeline.
There is a virtually limitless number of possibilities through which we could "fit" fighters which were introduced in the 13 movies of DBZ in circumstances which would not create inconsistencies or plot holes, but is it really worth the effort? I would bet 95% of those behind DBZ and the distribution of DBZ-related merchandising don't care the slightest bit about whether or not a given fighter is "canon" or not, their purpose is to sell as much as possible.
We've been discussing the "canonness" of the 13 movies and/or GT too much, in my view. We've pretty much already reached the definitive conclusions on the issues presented by them. What we could continue discussing, although we've already done so intensively too, is how the events of the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F fit or don't fit into the main timeline of the series as a direct follow-up of DBZ's Majin Buu arc and leading up to the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, but even in that area we've already decisively concluded that, for a number of well-documented reasons, DBSuper is basically presenting us the same characters (Beerus, Whis) and the same stages (Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, Golden Freeza) although at a different timing (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later) and in different circumstances.
The debate on the "canonness" of GT, DB's 4 movies, DBZ's 13 movies, Episode of Bardock, Tarble's special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F regarding time inconsistencies and plot holes has me a little bit tired, to be honest. Until further information DBSuper's incoming episodes and arcs, Dragonball's one and only timeline is as follows: Bardock special - DB - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs - Trunks special in a different timeline - Jinzouningen and Cell arcs - Movie 9 - Majin Buu arc - DBSuper's first episodes - DBSuper's Beerus arc - DBSuper Freeza arc - DBSuper 6th Universe arc - last 3 episodes of DBZ. Any event depicted outside of this sequence, as far as we know, didnt' "happen". They're "what-if" scenarios exploring "what-if" possibilities, events and characters. It would be interesting to generate a list of events in Dragonball's universe main, one and only timeline BEFORE DB, though, as in, beginning millions of years ago, with Beerus, Whis, Champa, the creation of Majin Buu, Babidi's possession of Dabura, Majin Buu's rampage over the Kaioshin, and all the way throughout time, from King Cold's birth to the natural disaster on Namek, the Kaiou-samas locking of Bojack, Paiku-han's death, Olibu's death, Garlic Jr.'s birth, the split between Kami and Piccolo, the taking over of Planet Plant by the Saiya-jin, etc., etc. (as in, events which are depicted in flashbacks or hinted in DB and/or DBZ).
______________________________________________________________________________________
The most likely scenario in which any other surviving Saiya-jin would appear on DBSuper (and we had a few additional ones in the movies, although non-canon ones) would be if they keep the ritual to achieve the stage of Super Saiya-jin God exactly the same as in BoG and need an additional Saiya-jin to join Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten and Trunks. In that case, as suggested by Bulma herself in BoG, they could bring Tarble to the discussion again (although he, along with the entire events of the 2008 special, may have become non-canon just the way BoG and Fukkatsu did) or have either Raditz, Nappa or Bardock revived. This is really a long shot and I think the chances of it happening are more than dim and the overall scenario is utterly far-fetched. If I had to choose, I'd love to see both Raditz and Bardock resurrected, as they belong to Goku's family and I've always wondered throughout the years how Goku would react to Raditz after all those years (he has a tendency to forgive his past enemies and would probably accept him as a member of the team and his blood-brother) and especially how the relationship between Goku and Bardock, his father, would develop. Pure Saiya-jin have a natural tendency to cease from putting a lot of importance in family and blood relationships - Raditz wants to kills his brother and his nephew, Goku helps to kill his brother, Brolly kills his father, Vegeta seems emotionally indifferent to the decease of his father, etc. -, but the fact remains Goku has never seen his father once in his entire life, and Bardock, the other way around, only saw Goku as a baby and is completely unaware of the fact that he went on to become not only a Super Saiya-jin and beat Freeza, but reached entire new stages, defeated/fought toe-to-toe with much more powerful villains/antagonists in the following years and became pretty much one of the most powerful warriors in the Universe.
If they're indeed going for a change in how the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, which is the most likely scenario (although they could also retcon BoG even further and have Pan be born at this point instead of 4 years later and have her become the additional Saiya-jin they need, exactly as seen in the movie), they can either change the number of Saiya-jin needed, change the ritual itself or have the state become a transformation that can be underwent through some other method, such an explosion of anger or intensive training.
Regarding Tarble, I've always had the theory that basically Vegeta - who is deemed a fighting genius on several occasions throughout DBZ - inherited all the good genes from his father, leaving Tarble next-to-nothing (much like in the movie Twins, in which one of the sons is mentally and physically overly gifted and the other one is a dwarf with an attitude problem). If Tarble continues to be canon, or will become canon during DBSuper, we can only conclude that Vegeta neglected even mentioning him to his fellow Saiya-jin, Goku or anybody else, for that matter, on purpose, out of indifference/shame for his disgraceful fighting abilities as a member of his family line. Tarble came to DBZ as an additional surviving Saiya-jin and Vegeta's long-lost brother in an overly fast-paced manner.
We've always been chewing on the "fact" that there were only 4 surviving Saiya-jin from the destruction of Planet Vegeta and the genocide of the race, and indeed we can exclude Paragas, Brolly and Tullece, as they show up in movies, which depict, explore and expand on "what-if" scenarios and cannot be considered canon, but Tarble's introduction in 2008 came to change that fact. It's always hard to reshape your mind to change events which you went through the process of accepting as "facts" in DBZ's one and only timeline as canon. It's the same thing, to a certain degree, with having BoG and Fukkatsu no F be retold after having accepted them as canon direct continuations of the Majin Buu arc in DBZ in the 10 year gap between it and the last 3 episodes of DBZ, although we'll basically get the same events, characters and stages - Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta - being introduced just the same although at a different timing and in different circumstances.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I've never seen the Super Saiya-jin God stage as a direct follow-up Super Saiya-jin transformation building up on the previous one in a perfect sequence - Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3 -, but rather a different, separate and parallel event and stage achieved through a different method. The whole atmosphere in BoG lacked the seriousness, despair and drama of DB's Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. arcs and all of DBZ's arcs, and in that setting I've always viewed the ritual to achieve the Super Saiya-jin God stage as a rather inoffensive and over-friendly way to basically have the Saiya-jin as a race be put in a different light when compared to the blood-thirsty, savage, violent characteristics they display throughout the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, through the introduction of the concept of "good-hearted" Saiya-jin back on Planet Vegeta, fitting the movie's environment.
I do hope they change the ritual, or have the ritual itself be replaced by another method to achieve the stage - which has the potential of turning it into a proper direct follow-up of the other Super Saiya-jin transformations building up on the previous one.
Regarding Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, I view it as a slight improvement on the Super Saiya-jin God stage, keeping all of its advantages and adding some further Ki and the typical fighting abilities and tension typical of the Super Saiya-jin state(s), more than a mere "mastering" of the form or a Super Saiya-jin transformation building up on a Saiya-jin's state of mastery over the Super Saiya-jin God's stage, which is the explanation Goku provides in Fukkatsu no F, which, as he says it himself, is "a little complex and hard to grasp".
I'm well over the (at first) unpleasant fact that after going through the process of annexing BoG and Fukkatsu no F to the direct sequence of events in DBZ's timeline we now have to look at those movies as non-canon, as in, they never "happened". It's been thoroughly discussed before. We're basically going to have the same characters and events - Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Freeza's resurrection, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta - be introduced almost with no change to the setting and even picking up on some of the exact lines from BoG, as we've already seen in the first 2 episodes of DBSuper and know for a fact will happen in the next 3 episodes, with Beerus crashing a party, Goku fighting Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet, etc., although at a different timing and in slightly different circumstances. They could have chosen not to go this road and just keep BoG and Fukkatsu no F they way they are, but I guess Toriyama realized the immense potential of Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God had and decided to make a series-long version of the movie(s), expanding on the stories, building up a proper atmosphere and introducing everyone and everything at the right pace, without the time restrictions typical of a movie, even a longer one like BoG.
It might be seen as disappointing to have two entire arcs and quite a large chunk of DBSuper's first episodes - after these first two smooth family-focused ones, as a means to reintroduce the characters in a proper setting after the Majin Buu arc - depict characters who we already know and to whom we have already been introduced in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but even for the ones who can't get over that fact, I'm sure that before we know it, taking into account the fast pace at which they are moving forward with the story - we'll get entirely new events, characters and insanely powerful antagonists/villains be introduced after the Beerus and Freeza arcs, in the 6th Universe arc. I don't really mind the direction they took, although it might have come as a little bit of a shock when I first learned about it as the news, leaks and info on DBSuper's plot, arcs and storyline became available. I pretty much welcome anything Toriyama throws our way with open arms and the degree to which I was hyped before the series' debut, during its debut and at this point as well is pretty high, and will remain so, or even increase, particularly as we approach the 6th Universe arc.
I can't wait for them to explore on off-screen events which happened between BoG and Fukkatsu no F either, namely Goku's and Vegeta's decision to train with Whis, Freeza's 4-month training and Goku's and Vegeta's reaching the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage, which I see as a slight improvement on the Super Saiya-jin God stage, adding the natural fighting violence and tension typical of the Super Saiya-jin stages to it and most likely increasing the level of power by a little bit, while keeping all of the Super Saiya-jin God's advantages (ability to sense godly Ki, massive increase in power, making others unable to sense their Ki). I'm not sure we'll actually get to see the exploration of every single one of those events which happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F (especially Freeza's training and just how he managed to overcome such a huge gap in power between his previous forms and the levels of Ki Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Beerus and Whis have by the time of Fukkatsu no F), but it gets one hyped to anticipate just how Goku (and Vegeta) will reach their SSJG and SSJGSSJ stages, which will obviously need to be shown, fully explored and expanded upon.
What I am having trouble with is the fact that I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with those last 3 episodes, the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. On one hand, we get 10 years to explore, but whatever happens during the Beerus, Freeza and 6th Universe arcs will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and it just doesn't seem that by the time of the ending of DBZ they've gone through all of that. Maybe Toriyama will just go for another retcon, just like he did with BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and will have that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub become non-canon.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I've never liked the way DBZ ended, with those last 3 episodes, the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. On one hand, we get 10 years to explore, but whatever happens during the Beerus, Freeza and 6th Universe arcs will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and it just doesn't seem that by the time of the ending of DBZ they've gone through all of that. Maybe Toriyama will merely go for another retcon, just like he did with BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and will have that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub become non-canon, although he might feel he shouldn't "touch" something which aired back in 1996, after 19 years. I'm kind of hoping he goes that way, though. We've already gotten GT out of the way and have it become non-canon, and I see those last 3 episodes as a lead-up to GT. GT basically took on the worst aspects of DBZ's last arc - after so many years of intensive creative activity for new characters and dramatic events throughout DB and DBZ, Toriyama was already starting to run out of solid ideas by the Majin Buu saga - and ignored all the good/fantastic aspects which made DBZ what it was in terms of character development and backgrounds, storyline, drama, interactions, relationships, fights, etc. If they retconned the ending of DBZ, we would now be basically exploring the real, one and only timeline of Dragonball on a sequential basis, with the knowledge that will not lead to anything we've already seen before (last 3 episodes of DBZ 10 years later and/or GT), which are pretty much the circumstances we've been presented with in the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F (and, until a retcon of the ending of DBZ is confirmed, DBSuper's arcs). They could have Pan be born months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later, they could just basically "erase" the last episodes of DBZ from "canonness" and build up on and do pretty much whatever they want with the storyline and characters from now on. Some have speculated that the 6th Universe arc could happen after the ending of DBZ, meaning there would be a massive time-skip at some point in DBSuper, but I don't view that as a likely scenario.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Sure enough, they're retelling BoG so closely that it feels like you're watching the movie all over again. Especially when it comes to Beerus and Whis exchanges of speech regarding the Super Saiya-jin God. They're following the script from BoG almost on a line-by-line basis. It's incredible. Beerus' mentioning of how long it takes to go to Kaiou-sama's planet, Whis' closing of the eye while locating the Saiya-jin on Earth, them watching Goku and Freeza's battle back on Namek, the bingo prizes, #18 expressing interest in them, Beerus mentioning that he wiped out Earth's dinosaurs, Whis saying Prince Vegeta himself is on Earth as a surviving Saiya-jin, and so on.
We already knew they were going to basically retell BoG and introduce Beerus, Whis and Super Saiya-jin God Goku in pretty much the same circumstances as they did in BoG, but I didn't know it would almost feel as if we're watching the first minutes from BoG again. It's literally sentence-by-sentence. I'm not criticizing or expressing disappointment, just stating a fact.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Sure enough, they're retelling BoG so closely that it feels like you're watching the movie all over again. Especially when it comes to Beerus and Whis exchanges of speech regarding the Super Saiya-jin God. They're following the script from BoG almost on a line-by-line basis. It's incredible. Beerus' mentioning of how long it takes to go to Kaiou-sama's planet, Whis' closing of the eye while locating the Saiya-jin on Earth, them watching Goku and Freeza's battle back on Namek, the bingo prizes, #18 expressing interest in them, Beerus mentioning that he wiped out Earth's dinosaurs, Whis saying Prince Vegeta himself is on Earth as a surviving Saiya-jin, and so on.
We already knew they were going to basically retell BoG and introduce Beerus, Whis and Super Saiya-jin God Goku in pretty much the same circumstances as they did in BoG, but I didn't know it would almost feel as if we're watching the first minutes from BoG again. It's literally sentence-by-sentence. I'm not criticizing or expressing disappointment, just stating a fact.
I agree with your "concerns" over the animation. This one seemed to be much more weirdly or worse animated than the previous two. We could speculate that this has been the least good of all of the 3 first episodes so far, but that may be because the initial mega-hype for the first episodes is naturally fading away.
______________________________________________________________________________________
LuckyCat wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
I doubt it, they didn't change Videls missing leggings afterall or put anymore effort into that awful Beerus monster fight. Maybe they made the lines so thick so people won't realise how bad the animation is :P
Isn't it pretty normal to have different teams for different episodes in long-running series? I liked the look of the upcoming episode.
We've had more than 10 different animation teams throughout DB and DBZ providing animation for the episodes on an alternate sequence. I assume it's the same with DBSuper, although with not as much variety. The animation from this episode and possibly the next one might have been/be slightly below the first two episodes, but honestly I'm more interested in how closely they're following the plot from BoG almost on a sentence-by-sentence basis. It feels like watching the movie all over again, especially when it comes to the exchanges of dialogue between Beerus and Whis. I mean, they're using the same lines from the movie, they didn't change a thing in most lines.
We've had another instance of animation from DBZ used again in DBSuper (Cell's explosion in Kaiou-sama's planet), after Goku vs Kid Buu's fight in the first episode and Vegeta's training with Trunks in the second one. I'm not against that and it doesn't disappoint me. There really is no point into putting unnecessary effort into animating those scenes again when they can just take the animation which already exists.
Sem comentários:
Enviar um comentário