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Basaku wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I highly doubt there's 1% of probability of it ever happening in the near future, in DBSuper or anywhere else, but I would more than welcome the concept of having Cell back at least for a few episodes.
I would've liked that and there's almost perfect spot for that to happen - Age 786, 2 years after EOZ is when Present Cell would've been completed. They could easily pull "he survived" excuse and bring him back, even with additional cells/power of Buu/Beerus/Whis etc.
The concept wouldn't be totally new, though. Far from it, in fact. We've had demons (Piccolo Daimao), genocidal aliens (Freeza), cyborgs (#17, #18, Cell) and again demons/magical creatures (Majin Buu). The concept of having a fighter who had the abilities and techniques and could in fact absorb the power and characteristics of other warriors was introduced with Cell, but it was in fact partially copied with Super Buu (who also absorbs other fighters and takes on their characteristics and techniques) or, if you count GT, Bebi. Bringing back Cell would be awesome for the reasons I specified, but it would be far from an innovative concept, regardless of the ENORMOUS power boost he would get if they managed to add the cells of Majin Buu, Beerus and Whis to his genetic makeup.
The true entirely innovative concept as far as antagonists go (and I'll call him an antagonist, rather than a full-fledged villain) was introduced with Beerus, who can't be deemed "good" nor "evil", is a God and displays comic traits and laid-backness despite being the (second) most powerful entity in the entire Universe, far above the likes of Cell, the Kaioshin, Dabura, Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and even Super Vegitto.
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DemonRin wrote:
Honestly, the complaining around the web about this episode of Dragonball Super is funny to me, because what this complaining really is, is MASSIVE Nostalgia goggles making people believe that a DB property having different animation teams and budget levels from episode to episode resulting in some episodes looking horrid is somehow a NEW thing.
I mean, I'm linking the main site's Animation styles guide (awesome work on it Mike and the Stafffolk, BTW) to try to combat this a bit, but I still end up with a story in my news feed every other day about it. Today apparently is some guy trying to fix all the animation in the episode.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, not gonna try to defend that but, and I’m not saying this makes it right necessarily, however, when you have a long running series like this (which, we know they plan on Super lasting at least 3 story arcs across, so I hear, roughly 100 episodes, so they intend this to be long-ish) it means you have to compartmentalize a bit and stretch the budget including cutting corners in areas, which means some parts WILL look bad and there’s nothing you can really do about that as Toei is a business and can’t dump unlimited money into the production.
That being said, They used to at least try to save the good animation teams for the important bits, and Goku’s first fight against Beers seems like the kinda thing you’d wanna make sure looks decent.... but I dunno, maybe they know they have the rematch when he’s Super Saiyan God coming up and they want to dump their ENTIRE budget into that? I don’t know.
Point is, I honestly see no difference between this and some of the worst stuff Uchiyama or Ebisawa gave us in Z, so it kinda baffles me that we now have droves of people crying foul like this is a new issue...
That's the whole point. DB and DBZ had about 10 different animation teams working on the episodes on a rotating basis, and two of them (especially one, the one behind, say, episodes 6, 27, 51, 66, 84, 94, 98, 104, 121, 126, 131, 144, 148, etc.) had remarkably bad animation. Some of the animation teams were absolutely fantastic (the one behind, say, episodes 4, 25, 31, 47, 81, 160, etc., or the one behind episodes 7, 21, 28, 64, or the one behind episodes 142, 152, 159 and 164), but there was an obvious rotation between the animation teams which resulted in a constant stream of extremely well-animated episodes followed immediately by extremely bad-animated ones, and so on an so forth.
I made an entire list of each animation team behind each episode to fully illustrate this a few days ago either in this thread or in another one.
I guess that if we had internet and forums like this back in the 80's and 90's we would get an entire uproar and the fandom would angrily complain at the first sign of bad animation, causing the show to not reach even half of the episodes it did.
Those animation teams from the 80's and 90's are now gone, after 11 years of inactivity between 1997 and 2008 they threw decent animation our way, especially during the fights in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but neither the 2008 special nor Episode of Bardock nor the opening and closing for Kai had fantastic animation either, just normal/acceptable. It's the same with DBSuper. Taking into account that it's a series, and presumably a long running one, we should be more than willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper if we were willing to put up with one in each 5 or 6 in DB and DBZ (or even with a higher frequency than that, to be honest). I understand and shared my rage at episode 5 because it was indeed EXCEEDINGLY awfully animated, the art and the fighting choreography were tragically laughable, and judging by the preview of episode 6 we'll be getting some bad animation/art yet again, but I'm sure we'll be back to normal by the time we reach the episode in which Beerus has his interactions + fights with everyone on Earth and by the time he fights Super Saiya-jin God Goku. We should be ready for the fact that we'll be seeing bad animation every now and then throughout all the episodes and arcs in DBSuper. Everything seems to get entirely blown out of proportion nowadays. It's just the internet, and how fast information flows and how quickly people nowadays tend to overreact and make unsupported and exaggerated claims, jumping to hasty conclusions and foreseeing the end of a virtually "unkillable" franchise just because of one badly drawn/animated episode. We're five episodes into the series, so far we've only had one (granted, majorly) badly animated one, and I read some fans foreseeing the end of Dragonball altogether. No major complaints about ANY other aspect (storyline, character background/development, comic relief, etc.) in the first four episodes at all. That's just insane. Even if they threw a constant stream of crap animation our way, the franchise is so powerful and has such potential that all it would take to get back on top would be another one or two fantastically animated movies with a consistent and intricate plot and proceed from there with their plans to continue the franchise with a long-running series after 18 years.
This will and should be remembered as one of the most hasty overreaction in the Universe of Dragonball ever. Let's just get back on track with the following episodes and look forward to what's coming instead of over-debating and crying over something which is far from new. This forum dedicated 30 pages to cry over the animation quality in episode 5 and some fans went as far as saying they were going to drop the series altogether or claiming that they should stop the series right here or refrain from doing it at all, based on this one episode ALONE. That's not healthy, and not reasonable or rational.
Glad to see someone else taking a rational + optimistic view at the whole thing.
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Does anyone have any idea on how many credible petitions against DBSuper are currently in motion? Last time I checked, there are quite a few... Don't know quite to say about this stuff other than what I've already said. Getting tired of this. There's one petition in my country called "This is not Dragon Ball", and the supposed fans' outrage made it to the national f****** news (!), wrongly stating that the fans are angry not only at the animation of the entire series, but at its plot and overall quality in general.
I mean, let's all make the following exercise: let's get back to a few days before, when episode 5 and its subsequent horrible animation was shown. Was anybody really annoyed or disappointed at ANY aspect of DBSuper? On the contrary, pretty much everyone was hyped. Unless they throw us the same garbage of episode 5 in every single episode for the rest of the series, I'll always think this is being completely blown out of proportion.
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I mean, it feels like everyone - including the fans - was greedily waiting for the FIRST big mistake in the series to lash out at DBSuper's supposed flaws. That's partially the feeling I get. Up until now, everybody was just commenting on the first four episodes and debating a number of issues surrounding the plot, storyline, timing, character development, etc., everyone was hyped, the only instance of disappointment was at the fact that the first two arcs were going to be/are being dedicated to the retelling of the events of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in pretty much the exact same circumstances expect for a few minor changes and additions when compared to the movies, but even that was supposed to be at least accepted by the ones having a harder time overcoming their disappointment.
All of a sudden, it's like "This is not Dragon Ball", "DRAGONBALL IS OVER", "F*** TOEI", petitions all over the world lashing out at Toei. Just because of one awfully animated episode. We used to get one out of 5 or 6, or even more frequently than that, throughout DB and DBZ in the 80's and 90's. I'll repeat myself on the issue. If we were willing to put up with EXTREMELY badly animated/drawn episodes in DB and DBZ due to the rotating dynamics of the animation teams behind each episode, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in DBSuper in every 6 or 7. This is not a movie, this is a series, with both its benefits (longer time to expand on the characters' stories and backgrounds, more fighting time, longer run, more content) and disadvantages (lesser budget, lower animation quality).
It's like a few days ago Dragonball was as healthy as it could be, and because of ONE episode the world is going to end. I mean, the episode WAS horrendously badly animated, the art was laughable, the fighting choreography was utterly atrocious, but this is ONE episode, we're 5 into a series that has just started airing less than a month ago. What the hell is all this about? I know it's 2015, but Dragonball's best quality, that which made it fantastic, was never its animation quality. Some of the animation teams were exceptional, most of them were average, some of them were miserable. It had to do with fighting choreography, violence, drama, seriousness, values, relationships, life lessons, desperate circumstances, storyline, plot, character development and background. I'm personally more than willing to put aside episode 5 and view it as a temporary and separate event, a forgettable screw-up among a virtually infinite and limitless number of fantastic possibilities for past, present and future events both within the Universe of Dragonball and for the real world surrounding it. Dragonball is "unkillable", its potential is virtually limitless, let's get our collective shit together, look forward to the next episode(s) and arcs and enjoy the f****** series just like we welcomed the revitalization of DBZ with open arms (Tarble Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, Golden Freeza). Are general fans THAT weak or THAT insane that all it takes for them to threaten to drop the first series in 18 years (!) altogether is ONE episode?
Look at the animation teams behind DB and DBZ. DB had 153 episodes, DBZ had 291. Out of those, over half of them had average-to-subpar animation. Only about third of them had two or three fantastic animation teams behind them. I have the entire list of rotating animation teams, I even posted a large chunk of it a few days ago either in this thread or in another one.
I wish everyone was still sharing the hype towards each episode every Saturday/Sunday as I still am. If all goes well, it will be one of those events which are basically debated to death and insanely blown out of proportion throughout the internet and the media for a few days to the point of saturation, after which nobody will even discuss it anymore apart from a few mentions here and there. It will be forgotten. I'm confident they won't screw up (animation-wise) the episode in which Beerus has his interactions + fights with everyone on Earth, and the episode(s) both before Goku's arrival and after it, including the Beerus vs Super Saiya-jin God battle. The series just f****** began, for f***'s sake.
Before episode 5, we've had two smooth family-oriented episodes dedicated to (re)introducing the characters, along with a few chilling/mysterious appearances by the Beerus/Whis duo, we've had a third one which should have caused orgasms to any Beerus lover, which includes me, a weaker fourth episode overly dedicated to the Pilaf Gang. Everything was going well, and everything WILL return to normal. It just has to. I bet all I have that a month from now, or a few months from now, we'll be discussing the aftermath of the Beerus arc, the Freeza arc and every single aspect of the episodes and every issue surrounding the series in the light of Dragonball's history and Universe with the same degree of enthusiasm and hype as we were up until a few days ago.
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I mean, it feels like everyone - including the fans - was greedily waiting for the FIRST big mistake in the series to lash out at DBSuper's supposed flaws. That's partially the feeling I get. Up until now, everybody was just commenting on the first four episodes and debating a number of issues surrounding the plot, storyline, timing, character development, etc., everyone was hyped, the only instance of disappointment was at the fact that the first two arcs were going to be/are being dedicated to the retelling of the events of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in pretty much the exact same circumstances expect for a few minor changes and additions when compared to the movies, but even that was supposed to be at least accepted by the ones having a harder time overcoming their disappointment.
All of a sudden, it's like "This is not Dragon Ball", "DRAGONBALL IS OVER", "F*** TOEI", petitions all over the world lashing out at Toei. Just because of one awfully animated episode. We used to get one out of 5 or 6, or even more frequently than that, throughout DB and DBZ in the 80's and 90's. I'll repeat myself on the issue. If we were willing to put up with EXTREMELY badly animated/drawn episodes in DB and DBZ due to the rotating dynamics of the animation teams behind each episode, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in DBSuper in every 6 or 7. This is not a movie, this is a series, with both its benefits (longer time to expand on the characters' stories and backgrounds, more fighting time, longer run, more content) and disadvantages (lesser budget, lower animation quality).
It's like a few days ago Dragonball was as healthy as it could be, and because of ONE episode the world is going to end. I mean, the episode WAS horrendously badly animated, the art was laughable, the fighting choreography was utterly atrocious, but this is ONE episode, we're 5 into a series that has just started airing less than a month ago. What the hell is all this about? I know it's 2015, but Dragonball's best quality, that which made it fantastic, was never its animation quality. Some of the animation teams were exceptional, most of them were average, some of them were miserable. It had to do with fighting choreography, violence, drama, seriousness, values, relationships, life lessons, desperate circumstances, storyline, plot, character development and background. I'm personally more than willing to put aside episode 5 and view it as a temporary and separate event, a forgettable screw-up among a virtually infinite and limitless number of fantastic possibilities for past, present and future events both within the Universe of Dragonball and for the real world surrounding it. Dragonball is "unkillable", its potential is virtually limitless, let's get our collective shit together, look forward to the next episode(s) and arcs and enjoy the f****** series just like we welcomed the revitalization of DBZ with open arms (Tarble Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, Golden Freeza). Are general fans THAT weak or THAT insane that all it takes for them to threaten to drop the first series in 18 years (!) altogether is ONE episode?
Look at the animation teams behind DB and DBZ. DB had 153 episodes, DBZ had 291. Out of those, over half of them had average-to-subpar animation. Only about third of them had two or three fantastic animation teams behind them. I have the entire list of rotating animation teams, I even posted a large chunk of it a few days ago either in this thread or in another one.
I wish everyone was still sharing the hype towards each episode every Saturday/Sunday as I still am. If all goes well, it will be one of those events which are basically debated to death and insanely blown out of proportion throughout the internet and the media for a few days to the point of saturation, after which nobody will even discuss it anymore apart from a few mentions here and there. It will be forgotten. I'm confident they won't screw up (animation-wise) the episode in which Beerus has his interactions + fights with everyone on Earth, and the episode(s) both before Goku's arrival and after it, including the Beerus vs Super Saiya-jin God battle. The series just f****** began, for f***'s sake.
Before episode 5, we've had two smooth family-oriented episodes dedicated to (re)introducing the characters, along with a few chilling/mysterious appearances by the Beerus/Whis duo, we've had a third one which should have caused orgasms to any Beerus lover, which includes me, a weaker fourth episode overly dedicated to the Pilaf Gang. Everything was going well, and everything WILL return to normal. It just has to. I bet all I have that a month from now, or a few months from now, we'll be discussing the aftermath of the Beerus arc, the Freeza arc and every single aspect of the episodes and every issue surrounding the series in the light of Dragonball's history and Universe with the same degree of enthusiasm and hype as we were up until a few days ago.
VegettoEX wrote:
It's completely blown out of proportion by fans who have never actually dealt with seeing Dragon Ball on a week-to-week basis before, are doing so in an era where the social media echo-chamber has never been more effective in regurgitating and parroting their own opinions back at them, have never seen something new for the first time in HD on a monitor six inches from their face, have no understanding of the animation industry, and see no irony at all in complaining about a product they have no legal right to even be watching in the first place.
(And this is coming from someone who did indeed think the episode looked awful.)
I second every single word. I happen to be one of the hardcore fans who started watching Dragonball and recording every single episode back in the early 90's. It was my childhood and early adolescence, I've followed every single step of the franchise since then and have watched every single episode hundreds of times almost on a daily basis for nearly two decades. I too think the episode looked awful, ANYONE with a pair of fully functional eyes just HAS to share that opinion. I've voiced my own anger at the incredibly awful animation/fighting choreography more than once, but goddamn it, it's been a few days and I'm not generating petitions against the series. I've said this before, I honestly don't give two sh**s about who the new audience they're trying to direct the "round 2" of the Dragonball franchise at, any decent hardcore DBZ fan who went through the 90's and is in their early 30's like me just has to realize all of this, put it into perspective and reach the same conclusions we're reaching. Some of my friends weren't even born when DBZ ended its run. There's a lot wrong with the way information is conveyed nowadays and while there is a number of advantages, it comes at a great price when something like this happens. There's no turning back, all they can do is keep up with the series and the franchise and "try not to" screw-up ANYTHING otherwise part of the world will keep generating memes, petitions and mocking jokes about something which they obviously don't comprehend, much less its significance. This has been happening in virtually all areas of entertainment, and by choosing to go further with a potentially partially flawed Dragonball series there was a decisive chance it could affect the franchise as well, but people in their teenage years or in their early 20's, who already grew up in a world of internet and technological commodity without knowing what it is to live without it have no f****** idea what they're talking about and they are the ones disrespecting Dragonball, in fact, just like they disregard and disrespect pretty much all the "untouchable" fictional stuff from the 70's, 80's and 90's.
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Chuquita wrote:
I'm also willing to bet this'll blow over by Saturday night. Everyone will have moved onto whatever happens in episode 6.
Yeah, unless the animation ends up being even partially nearly as bad as the one in episode 5. Two episodes awfully animated in a row? Holy shit, everybody'll go insane. Or on the other hand, they could very well just reach the point of saturation and refrain from discussing the matter at all. Non-hardcore DBZ fans are simply taking this opportunity to basically mock whatever has a reason or potential to be mocked, they could very well just find the next best thing to joke about and episode 5's horrible animation won't even be mentioned once for a while. It's not DBSuper or episode 5 I'm disappointed at, it's a large chunk of the fandom, to be honest. If DBSuper does well in all aspects and doesn't screw up once, I bet you won't get 30 pages discussing a particular episode, they'll have nothing to grab onto to lash out their ill-restrained and ill-placed anger + ignorance combo.
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Chuquita wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
I'm also willing to bet this'll blow over by Saturday night. Everyone will have moved onto whatever happens in episode 6.
Yeah, unless the animation ends up being even partially nearly as bad as the one in episode 5. Two episodes awfully animated in a row? Holy shit, everybody'll go insane. Or on the other hand, they could very well just reach the point of saturation and refrain from discussing the matter at all. Non-hardcore DBZ fans are simply taking this opportunity to basically mock whatever has a reason or potential to be mocked, they could very well just find the next best thing to joke about and episode 5's horrible animation won't even be mentioned once for a while. It's not DBSuper or episode 5 I'm disappointed at, it's a large chunk of the fandom, to be honest. If DBSuper does well in all aspects and doesn't screw up once, I bet you won't get 30 pages discussing a particular episode, they'll have nothing to grab onto to lash out their ill-restrained and ill-placed anger + ignorance combo.
Episode 6 is likely to be Vegeta Bingo Dance 2, I'm hoping that will be a good distraction.
Yeah, can you imagine if his Bingo Dance is animated better than Gokû vs Beerus?
I honestly think that the quality of the animation/art doesn't have anything to do with the particular event which is being depicted. Throughout DB and DBZ, some of the best animation teams worked in filler-packed episodes with no real significance to them and some of the major fights - supposed to be the top of the top event for any male hardcore DBZ fan - had horribly-animated episodes. It's really a matter of sheer luck. Appointing different animation teams for each episode in a rotating basis worked that way in DB and DBZ. It's when you "happen(ed)" to combine fantastic animation with the most significant events or fights that you reach(ed) the best DB/DBZ moments, and there are quite a few.
If they stay with the animation quality of the first four episodes everyone will remain quiet about the subject and hopefully we'll be able to discuss the progress of the plot, the storyline, the characters, the events, the transformations, the fights, the way we're supposed to do it.
On another note, I'm not entirely sure they'll keep Vegeta's bingo dance. Keep in mind that they're depicting Vegeta's character in a much more serious light when compared to BoG, and although even the episode title seconds the fact that Vegeta will be extremely cautious and fearful of Beerus, he most likely won't be portrayed in so much a comical fashion when dealing with Beerus before the latter lost his shit when compared to the movie. I think there's a good chance they'll refrain from the bingo dance. We can still expect Vegeta to react out of character and display a degree of comic antics while dealing with Beerus, but not to the same degree we saw in BoG. The series is throwing us a slightly more serious/dramatic version of the events of the movie, and we saw that in the way Beerus dealt with the planets in the first two episodes and especially in the way he coldly threw that last line at Goku before rendering him unconscious. If one hadn't seen BoG, or if it had never existed, we'd by now be thinking Beerus is closer to a full-fledged villain than he actually is.
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Noah wrote:
godku23 wrote:
I don't think it will. I'm not very fond of it, but I think there's more people that like it than people that don't.
Are you really sure about that statement?
I enjoy the display in BoG, but after a while, if you're a hardcore Vegeta fan, you eventually want to refrain from that stuff and go back to his degree of seriousness and rigidity. I personally would like if it didn't happen this time around. Being extremely cautious and fearful of Beerus and the potential reactions by the others towards him shouldn't make it necessary to turn Vegeta into a ridiculous comedian. My bet is that the bingo dance was a movie-thing only.
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kizuki wrote:
I don't think the petitions are going to do much of anything, even if they made a headline or two out in the news.
This series isn't going anywhere, we'll all be okay. Even after Bejita makes it onto an episode with two left hands. It's all going to be alright.
Again, I'll speak up as someone who's been a fan of the series since 1999-2000, that's about 15 years, half of my entire life: I want to see better quality animation. It doesn't make me less a fan. It doesn't make my "fandom weak." I just want to see something better. I get it, I get it! The animation has never been perfect! Some episodes of DB and Z were God awful. I get it.
I'm a fan, though. Maybe having an opinion on a series I'm not even supposed to be watching is ludicrous, but the Dragon Ball franchise has enough of my money and time in other places where I'm allowed to want to see something better. Something better in 2015, when things are expected to be better. It doesn't make anyone's fandom weak. If someone is saying they're done with the franchise then let them be. Why would we want them? They're not enjoying it to the point where they want out. Okay. BYE BYE, then.
There's a thread discussing how bad the animation was for episode 5. I'm assuming people will do the right thing and post their thoughts on episode 6's animation in a thread other than the actual episode 6 discussion thread. After all, we know 6 is going to be pretty bad. It won't be a sucker punch to the face ala Geno Smith this time. I'll discuss episode 6's plot and story in the thread, and nothing else.
It still won't prevent me from wanting a better looking Dragon Ball.
And when I say better, I mean better. Not THE BEST.
And if I feel like I can't physically sit there through any more horrible looking episodes, then I won't. I'll still buy Dragon Ball merch, read the episode summaries on the main site (like I did through junior high and high school because I didn't have Cartoon Network), and still be a fan, listen to the awesome podcast the team puts out, etc etc. Just not a fan of the quality of animation they're putting out. I don't think that's too great of an offense to the rest of the fandom.
Don't take it personally. When I referred to weak DBZ fans, or not-so-hardcore DBZ fans, I was obviously referring to the ones who basically took the opportunity the awful animation/art/fighting choreography shown in episode 5 presented them to postulate the end of the series and the franchise altogether, generate memes, mock the series and act in a way similar to those who are generating those petitions which went as far as to reach national news. I seriously did want to put a definite end to the discussion on the animation of episode 5 a few posts ago, but I'm replying to you on the matter because I don't want you to think I was devaluing every single fan who was displeased with the animation in the last episode, was angry at it, displayed their anger and wanted better, as that would include me. My views on the matter have now reached their absolute conclusion with the last posts in this page, hopefully I won't be addressing the matter again at least for a few days. We've got a new episode in just a little over 48 hours, let's focus on that, discuss that and look forward to that.
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Noah wrote:
Taskmaster wrote:
Can't forget something that never happened.
How it never happened, pal?
Depends on the point of view. WHEN Ultimate Gohan showed up and thrashed Super Buu, he was indeed the strongest fighter in the Universe ON PAR with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, apart from the then-unknown Beerus and Whis. The true Saikyou no Senshi. But I've always put Ultimate Gohan exactly on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
HOWEVER, and counting only DBZ while adding just the existence of Beerus and Whis to it, in a matter of two episodes he's overcome by a number of warriors: the first upgraded version of Super Buu, and then by Super Buu in his strongest stage, Vegitto, Super Vegitto, and arguably Kid Buu (not to mention Janenba, if you count the Movies).
The only way Ultimate Gohan being the strongest in the Universe besides Beerus and Whis is a DEBATABLE issue is IF we take into account only non-fused characters, but even so, I put Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Kid Buu (who is a non-fused warrior) above him.
You could reply saying that Ultimate Gohan is above SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu (as SSJ3 Goku says that if he could tap into his full power as a SSJ3 he COULD defeat Kid Buu, implying he's at least potentially stronger than him), and in doing so, and setting things up by leaving fused characters out of the picture, then yes, you could argue he's the strongest warrior in the Universe apart from Beerus and Whis (and then, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta, base Goku with the power and abilities of SSJG, base Vegeta with the power and abilities of SSJG, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who are all also non-fused characters). But I don't share your opinion, and I think Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 3 is exactly as strong as Ultimate Gohan and it could be arguable that Kid Buu is even slightly stronger than that.
There's no other possible way to look at the debate without going in-depth into all of these ramifications if you want to make that claim.
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Captain Space wrote:
Not the place for this, please guys. Just recently a thread got locked for derailing into this debate.
Are fans' feelings on the matter so strong and so extreme that voicing your own opinion threatens to lock a thread? I knew about a lot of long-time touchy subjects when discussing Dragonball, but didn't know it was so severe. I wouldn't have written anything had I known it was that serious an offense.
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Well, when two (or more) people engage in a debate and none of them is willing to show the slightest bit of flexibility over an issue, yes, being systematically stubborn can be annoying. Hope he doesn't reply to it, then, because if he does and if his views contradict mine to the point of saying that my position is entirely wrong, I'll have to come back at him, and so on and so forth.
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Let's just forget the whole thing, he probably won't even read it anyway. Carry on with your One Piece vs Dragonball discussion.
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Chuquita wrote:
Just thinking, we never did get a full scan of episode 6's summary like we did the others. I saw a picture of just the top part of the scan earlier this week, but the summary was cut off.
Everybody was too busy dealing with the whole end-of-the-world petition-and-meme-generating crisis arising from episode 5's animation quality to pay attention to ANYTHING else. Just joking (am I?).
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Chuquita wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
Just thinking, we never did get a full scan of episode 6's summary like we did the others. I saw a picture of just the top part of the scan earlier this week, but the summary was cut off.
Everybody was too busy dealing with the whole end-of-the-world petition-and-meme-generating crisis arising from episode 5's animation quality to pay attention to ANYTHING else. Just joking (am I?).
I would've saved the link to the semi scan on Twitter if I had known no one else was going to find the full image. T_T
I actually think if we'd had the full summary scan it'd have abated the rage, or at least distracted from it.
Really? I don't think so. What happened throughout the internet and media in the aftermath of the episode's run was just uncontrollable, nobody would have paid any attention to you amidst so much "horror". I'm just so f****** glad the whole thing is over, it went away just as quickly as it came. Hopefully tomorrow we'll be discussing episode 6's events exactly along the same lines in which we were becoming used to discuss the other episodes along with a quite large list of other issues. Vegeta's "double-left-hand" might just generate a few more memes, though. Maybe that's a mutation. Oh shit, maybe that's the "mutation" they were referring to in episode 7's title! Just joking.
Edit: (there's a difference between making an inoffensive and not-so-graceful joke among roughly a hundred serious analyzes and generating mocking memes on a constant, hourly basis in the context of a wave of out of proportion overreaction and pure ridicule throughout all means of media, just in case somebody wonders I dare to make a joke about anything animation-related only one day after I posted such serious comments on another thread on the issue)
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Vegeta's "double-left-hand" might just generate a few more memes, though.
We see him fall down in that scene so maybe his arm is like that cause Beerus broke it during their fight ?
The way he falls, and taking into account that they're in a boat, either he lost his balance or he's drunk (much less likely, this is Vegeta we're talking about) or it could be a metaphor to the decay of the Dragonball franchise (Beerus being the fandom and the overall worldwide critique and Vegeta being DBSuper). Joking again on this last one, sorry.
I doubt it's intentional or has anything to do with an injury from fighting, it's just a plain mistake and nothing to be blown out of proportion yet again. However, it WOULD be interesting to have Vegeta's hand broken to the point of distortion after having his arm broken to the point of distortion by #18 in the Jinzouningen arc. Hurts like hell.
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I know it won't happen, but just to please the Yamcha fans/complainers and "for tha lulz" I'd like Yamcha to indirectly and inadvertently cause some major event. Like patting the most powerful entity in the Universe in the back as if he was just a talking cat.
Vegeta: "He's Hakaishin Birusu, the most fearsome deity there is. His power is on an entirely different dimension from the likes of any of us. You all must refrain from making him the slightest bit mad over anything, otherwise we'll be in big trouble"
*Yamcha patties Beerus' back*
Yamcha: "Hey, yo, what's up?"
*Vegeta has a temporary mental breakdown and collapses on the floor over Yamcha's stupidity*
*Beerus proceeds to KO everyone on the boat and decides to annihilate the entire planet*
*Goku shows up but drowns in the ocean immediately*
*Raditz is still wondering in Hell why the f*** Vegeta and Nappa haven't resurrected him with the Dragon Balls*
Beerus: "I actually don't give a sh*t about that Super Saiya-jin God thing anymore. This series is over."
Vegeta: "Yamcha, you useless scarfaced dumbass, it would be better if you remained a completely obsolete fighter with virtually no dialogue at all allocated to you. Wasn't it enough that I stole your girl and impregnated her just a few years after I indirectly killed you?"
*Yamcha throws a Souki Dan at himself to commit suicide, but fails*
End of the series, DBSuper gets replaced at 9h00am on Fuji TV by Doraemon.
This was seriously the most dispensable and ridiculous post I ever came up with here.
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shinmaru wrote:
bleed0range wrote:
The more and more I think about it, the more I feel like it's a good thing that so many people are upset (whether rightfully so or not). TOEI and the industry sort of need this as a wake up call. They get away with subpar work and poor animation on a lot of series, but when did it become a huge meme? When they did it to the new Dragon Ball anime. I think it goes to show how special this particular IP is to the world at large (including Japan, of course) and how everyone sort of feels the series deserves better.
Say what you will about the animation in this episode. Yes, DBZ had it's bad days too... but at it's best it was way better then the best Super has to offer. It's not like the digital animation is to blame, they just need better art in general. They could easily create animation that is far better then the original series if they wanted to, they have the tools at their disposal. Maybe the uproar about this episode will have some kind of impact on TOEI and the industry if for no other reason then it's embarrassing to them.
This shows again that DragonBall is loved all over the world and haves a huge fanbase, so I think its normal for some fans to get upset or say crazy stupid shit. In the end its good for DB to get so much attention, good or bad. Maybe some animators will be afraid to get known for bad animation after this tsunami of internet criticism and do their extra best on a personal level.
Yeah, it would be partially a good thing if it weren't for the fact that actually most of the fans generating memes and petitions don't have the slightest f******* idea what they're talking or even complaining about. I'd say 90% of those who somehow complained and kept complaining about the episode's animation to the point of the event reaching national news (!) did so either for mocking purposes or due to some sort of misplaced anger or sense of belonging to the Dragonball fandom.
There's no right way to look at the entire thing other than what we wrote about in-depth in the last page of this thread. It was completely blown out of proportion, just the way so many things are, in an age where most people don't even know what it is to live without the internet and when the way information - good or bad - is conveyed in the most uncontrollable and disproportionate possible and imaginable way.
This won't change anything in Toei's plans for the immediate/medium-term future of the series, the media/internet uproar already went away as quickly as it came, it was just another event of growth of misinformation/overreaction in an exponential way. It just happened to hit the Dragonball franchise this time. Nobody's even talking about it anymore, as predicted, it reached the point of saturation.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
I am disappointed he wasn't around this episode. Also wondering if they may save him in the anime till after the God Goku and Beerus fight? Have them meet up when Beerus and Whis return home, leading to the scenes from the trailer.
Oh, and curious whether or not they'll have Beerus go back to sleep or just keep him up so they can use him whenever they want instead too.
Champa will most likely only be introduced in the build-up for/during the 6th Universe arc, as what little we've seen about him leads one to postulate the scenario that he probably is somehow connected to the 6th Universe (either its Hakaishin, just as Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th Universe - he even has his own attendant much in the same way Beerus has Whis - or some sort of long-time competitor for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a run in which he lost against Beerus, which would explain the obvious bitterness/rivalry towards him, and potential "need" for revenge, just like Garlic Jr. wants revenge on Kami for the latter having prevailed against his father when competing for the position of Earth's Guardian).
I really wouldn't expect Champa to appear anywhere near the Beerus arc, or even indeed the Freeza arc. That image we got of the interaction between Beerus and Champa isn't necessarily indicative of when it's actually taking place, it could literally be at any point in DBSuper.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
I wonder how they will handle the SSJG Ritual and if they will bother to mention Tarble at all.
If they are retelling the movies, to flesh out things better and make it easy for new fans/fans that didn't watch the movies to get into this, I don't see any point to mention a pointless character from an OVA that wasn't released overseas.
The way I've always viewed it, there are three possibilities: either they keep the ritual exactly the same (which requires one additional Saiya-jin, who could be Pan - with likely implications on her conception and age and even the last 3 episodes of DBZ - Tarble, who hasn't been totally discarded as a character with some potential since they actually (re)mentioned him in BoG, or - far-fetched scenarios - Bardock/King Vegeta/Raditz), or they change by decreasing the number of Saiya-jin needed by one, or they change the way the Super Saiya-jin God stage is achieved altogether, possibly turning it into something that is more akin to the other previous Super Saiya-jin stages, which build upon the last one and develop in an incremental basis, also making it possible for Goku (and Vegeta) to reach the stage through some sort of anger explosion + extremely advanced martial arts training without anyone else's help; Goku did mention in BoG he wasn't quite happy with the fact he couldnt' reach SSJG entirely by himself, although he did incorporate the stage's abilities later on (Vegeta, due to his obsessive pride, would probably have the same issue).
If I had to go with the most likely one, I'd go with the middle one: they keep the ritual, but actually Pan, or any other additional Saiya-jin, isn't in fact needed. The way they're keeping the story following BoG's accounts so closely leads one to believe they'll keep the ritual with only a few minor change or adaptation.
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Taskmaster wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Baby was one of the only good things about GT. He might be too good for the new stuff, though.
I this is the only time we'll partially agree.
But GT as a whole was terrible, the fights we bad, the action was bad everything about it was bad. I like to pretend it doesn't exist.
In a way, it actually doesn't, it was stated by Toriyama that he viewed GT as a side-story, happening only in a "what-if" scenario. Regardless of how good or bad it is (and I do think it has horrible traits to it, that it was made in a rush and that it has MAJOR flaws), it cannot be considered a direct canon continuation of DBZ, although there's nothing in the plot that would make it impossible or generate any timeline inconsistencies, which is the case with 12 of the 13 DBZ Movies, Episode of Bardock, etc.
I was glad that everything they've been throwing our way in the last years since 2008, after 11 years of inactivity, basically put an end to the years-long debate and "erased" GT from existence in a consistent manner. I wish they'd do the same with the last 3 episodes of DBZ, thus making it possible for us to view whatever happens after the defeat of Kid Buu as new, direct canon continuations of DBZ happening outside of this sort of 10 year gap we're basically stuck in until further notice. It's just frustrating to know that whatever happens during the arcs of DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. I attribute the unsatisfactory ending of DBZ, and in fact the entirety of GT, to Toriyama's need to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible storyline-wise, due to the obvious and understandable fact that he was already running out of ideas by the Majin Buu arc and was extremely deteriorated after so many straight years of pressure generated by the need to consistently and constantly come up with new ideas for stories, characters, stages, etc.
Even from a pure or aesthetic visual point of view, I actually prefer any of the 13 DBZ Movies and all the Specials when compared to GT, as most of the movies had extremely good animation/fighting choreography despite being majorly flawed in terms of plot. In the same respect and along the same lines, there's no possible comparison between the Tarble Special, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F or indeed DBSuper and GT, whether you judge it from a visual point of view or from a storyline/character development/plot one. All the stuff generated by Toriyama since 2008 was done so with a clear head and with a fresh spirit, and that resulted in the - once again, innovative - fantastic character background displayed in Beerus.
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Doctor. wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
I really hope at least a bit of episode 6 is dedicated to Champa. I'd hate it if he's in the manga but not in the anime until the U6 arc :/
A thing I noticed about DB is that it rarely introduces plot points that have nothing to do with the one at hand so don't be surprised if we don't see him until the u6 arc.
Change isn't a bad thing. A retelling like this is the perfect opportunity to produce a cohesive narrative. If they leave the films with little changes without setting up the plot points for the next arc, then it's a waste of potential.
I'm actually surprised to a certain degree to see how minimal the changes are between the circumstances in which each new character and event is being presented in the episodes of DBSuper and BoG. I guess Toriyama viewed the introduction of a entirely new full-fledged series as the opportunity to basically say "ok, THIS is exactly how I wanted BoG and Fukkatsu no F's stories to be told, whatever little changes or additions were placed into them in DBSuper when compared to the movies are just due to having had to rearrange the plot a little bit in BoG and Fukkatsu no F because of the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature."
The instances of interaction between Beerus and Whis, especially, in the first three episodes of DBSuper were presented to us in an almost completely copied sentence-by-sentence basis when compared to BoG. There are only a few minor changes and additions here and there, and the atmosphere is just a little more dramatic and serious (Beerus' actions, especially that last line thrown at Goku before KO'ing him, are the best example of that).
Deciding to retell the last two movies only 2 years and a few months after they were released, respectively, is a double-edged sword, it has both benefits and disadvantages, and I'm sure they made a careful and pondered decision when they chose to go down this road of following the movies' storyline so closely. I'm glad, though, they're presenting Beerus (and apparently Vegeta) in a more serious/ominous/chilling/dramatic way, though. I've always viewed the seriousness, desperation and drama throughout the later stages of DB and entirety of the arcs in DBZ as one of the fundamental aspects of the series' success.
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It seems that in BoG/Fukkatsu no F/DBSuper they're deliberately avoiding to go down the road of any previous methods to attain massive power-ups seen throughout DBZ, and as a result of that it's definitely a long shot, but the concept of fusing Goku and Vegeta is just too appealing, especially taking into account what we've seen in the series, in Movie 12 and even GT. Although the Potara method of fusion brings better end results than the dance, either one would be fantastic to revisit, and as a result of that I'd have to go with Gogeta if I had to choose just one major character from GT to be (re)introduced in DBSuper. Won't happen, though, and the whole thread is nothing but an exercise of wishful thinking with virtually no probability of coming true, but it's interesting to see just what potential GT, as a sequel to DBZ, had that went wasted with such a rushed and hastily-created story.
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It's normal for Goten to make that claim or assumption, as he loves his father just like Trunks would say Vegeta is actually the greatest. It takes going a little bit more in-depth into it to realize Goku is far from being the strongest warrior in the Universe, which is a good thing because it prevents him from getting too cocky and, as a pure Saiya-jin, pressured to train harder and constantly overcome his (and the others') previous limits.
Just because one is the main protagonist of the series doesn't automatically and necessarily make one the strongest. Goku was at times thought to have been the strongest on Earth (in DB) and in the Universe (DBZ) and will always be Dragonball's main hero, but is actually outmached several times throughout the series (Piccolo Daimao in DB, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza in the Freeza arcs, #16, #17, #18, Cell, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta and especially Gohan in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegitto and Majin/Super/Kid Buu in the Majin Buu arc, Beerus and Whis in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, not to mention Tullece, Cooler, #13, Brolly, Bojack, Hatchiyakku or Janenba, if you count the Movies and Specials, etc.)- Just the way I've always viewed Tenshinhan as the strongest Earthling instead of Krillin (Krillin is Goku's best friend and Tenshinhan does have long periods of absence and isolation, but the latter keeps on training on a constant basis, shows up to stall Cell and Super Buu, was decisively powered-up after training at Kaiou-sama's place - I see the power-up Krillin got from the Namek Elder as equivalent to it, etc.).
Even dividing it by arcs or sagas you'll almost always find someone who is at that particular time stronger than Goku.
The torch was supposed to be handed by decisively to Gohan at the Cell Games, after which it could be argued that they wanted to make Gohan the main protagonist not only by having him become THE hero and THE strongest, but also by having Goku die (the Majin Buu opening and the Great Sayaman saga are the best examples of this), a major move which ultimately failed.
Besides, even if want to make it Goku who ultimately destroyed Kid Buu, you should also point out that the attack he used to do so had energy that, although collected BY him, didn't belong TO him, and he didn't save Goten from Super Buu alone either; throughout the Majin Buu arc, and after it (BoG, Fukaktsu no F, DBSuper) he basically manages to stay on top as one of the strongest warriors in the Universe, but never quite THE strongest (at the current stage, he's surpassed by Beerus and Whis even when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God, and in fact even in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage).
He's the main hero and the main protagonist, not the strongest warrior in the Universe, and sometimes he's not even in the top 3 or top 5 at his very strongest stage.
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Yamcha: "Hey, a talking cat"
Beerus: " 8) "
Yamcha: "Yo, what's up? Did you know I've been a useless character for over two decades?" *patties Beerus in the back*
Beerus: " :evil: "
*Vegeta is on his way to do the bingo dance to prevent the upcoming destruction and to slaughter Yamcha for both his stupidity and worthlessness but suffers a mutation that turns him into a two-right-handed Saiya-jin and collapses on the floor.*
PUDDING ! :twisted:
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Yamcha: "Hey, a talking cat"
Beerus: " 8) "
Yamcha: "Yo, what's up? Did you know I've been a useless character for over two decades?" *patties Beerus in the back*
Beerus: " :evil: "
*Vegeta is on his way to do the bingo dance to prevent the upcoming destruction and to slaughter Yamcha for both his stupidity and worthlessness but suffers a mutation that turns him into a two-right-handed Saiya-jin and collapses on the floor.*
*Puar claims that cats, as a race, are the strongest in the Universe upon seeing Beerus' display and "Yamucha-sama"'s shock.*
*Raditz wonders why the f*** Nappa and Vegeta haven't brought him back to life yet.*
*Goku apologizes for the animation and fighting choreography in the previous episode to Beerus-sama in writing, only to realize he can't even f****** write.*
*Beerus comes out of the monitors and storyboards, rapes the entire Universe (the real one), has some tuna fish, erases episode 5 from history and reruns the 1 minute it took him to KO Goku in BoG in a loop*
PUDDING ! :twisted:
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I honestly find it remarkably funny that Yamcha actually touches Beerus' body in a friendly manner as if he was best friends with him, not knowing he just interacted with the (second) strongest warrior in the entire Universe. It's funny that it should be Yamcha, out of all characters, after so many years of being mocked for being a useless and obsolete fighter. If he had any clue who Beerus is and what he just did to Goku, he'd probably kill himself before having to suffer such torture.
Beerus: "Dude, this you just pat me on my back?"
Yamcha: "Yeah :P Welcome to the party."
Beerus: " :twisted: PUDDING !"
Yamcha: "See that Vegeta guy there? He's thousands of time stronger than me, stole my girl, impregnated and actually indirectly had me killed. I don't like him."
Beerus: "At least he's at a level where he knows better than to pat me on my back. I'll destroy you and rape the Universe for this, do you realize that?"
Yamcha: "Calm down, I was just joking. I would be able to stop you, though, I'm a pretty strong warrior myself."
Beerus: "I'd rather fight that flying f****** cat who's always beside you calling you "Yamucha-sama" than fight you. Were you the one who did the animation and fighting choreography for last week's episode? It must have been you."
Yamcha: "Yeah, and I've done the animation for this episode too. See my scar? It's not even where it's supposed to be :P ."
*Raditz wonders why the f*** Nappa and Vegeta haven't brought him back to life yet. Watches the first episodes of the Namek arc, sees a few pictures of what a Super Saiya-jin is, realizes his power level is tens of times below that of Yamcha and decides to kill himself with a Makankosappo, only to find he can't actually perform it. Proceeds to try to open holes through his chest through another manner.*
Raditz wants to kill his nephew and brother, his nephew and brother want to kill him, Bardock doesn't give a shit about his son, Vegeta watches his dad being martial arts-raped by Freeza and Beerus, Vegeta doesn't give a shit about Raditz, Vegeta executes Nappa, Piccolo kills two brothers with the same attack, Goku doesn't mention his parents once, Vegeta doesn't even mention he has a brother to anyone, Brolly kills his father, Paragas uses his son like a toy. Dragonball is an anthem to fratricide and dysfunctional families.
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Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.
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Hakaishin Birusu-sama ! :twisted:
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That was one BRUTALLY different tale of events when compared to what I was expecting. Totally unexpected. Both the account surrounding Vegeta and Majin Buu vs Beerus.
Weird animation, you can tell they're hurrying it up and they touched this one after the first try, it was obviously pretty flawed in terms of drawing.
They got child-Vegeta's hair right, unlike BoG. :P I'd never expect him to rush at Beerus over his father and call him "papa", but then again I'd never even thought we'd see Vegeta doing the chef act. He seems to have a thing with octopuses, he Final Flash-fried one this time.
That ominous and chilling piece of audio whenever Beerus shows up suits him fantastically, it's really hitting me.
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This episode completely contradicted the sequence they were following. They were retelling the events of BoG almost in the same exact circumstances, sometimes dropping the same exact sentences with the same exact expression, but for some reason they changed almost everything in this episode when compared to what happens in BoG, except the fight with Majin Buu being over pudding. I guess that has to be seen as a good thing, they're being innovative, it's definitely better than watching the same exact thing with lesser quality-animation.
No bingo dance, that went as expected, but a strain of absurdly funny Vegeta moments to make up for it. We'll be getting everyone KO'd as easily and ALMOST as quickly as in BoG (it does seem, judging by the preview, they'll have Beerus "putting up" with their efforts and actually giving them time to try to hit him on multiple occasion), except maybe Vegeta. I knew he going to be freaked out and careful when approaching Beerus, but they went for a radical change and actually portrayed him in an even more comic way than in BoG. This totally destroyed my theory on Toriyama's intentions for Vegeta in DBSuper.
Before he shows up with the food for Beerus I thought for a second he was going to do the bingo dance.
Gotta "update" my list of Vegeta's clothing as well, this time to add the chef vest.
Yeah, things are back to normal once again with this episode, we'll be discussing plot and storyline instead of making it to the national news over the animation quality. I knew it was going to be over in a matter of days.
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They did overdo it with the King Vegeta humiliation scene, and by "overdo it" I actually mean it was f******* fantastic. Indeed, Beerus is being (re)introduced in a march darker light in DBSuper when compared to BoG, it we hadn't seen the movie or if it never happened we'd be thinking by now he's a full-fledged villain. It's like they're playing with his character and with everyone's natural disposition to much greater proportions than anyone had anticipated. The Vegeta vs Bills dynamic has so much potential than the Goku vs Beerus one, especially taking into account Vegeta's character and his past encounter with Beerus.
Honestly, the episode surprised me almost every single minute.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
Majiuub was okay. Felt like a rehash of Piccolo and Kami if you ask me.
Except you can't compare the absolutely fantastic dynamic between what Piccolo Daimao and his son/reincarnation represent and Kami with this rushed "version" of it. It was pretty obvious they were going to have Uub develop on his connection to Majin Buu, despite the fact that there should be none; the fact that he's the reincarnated soul of Kid Buu should bear no significance on the way his body works or on his (in)ability to fuse with/absorb other entities. He's a regular human being, apart from his fighting potential.
dae428 wrote:
I will say that of all the villains of GT the only one I actually liked was Baby and how he was this parasitic being that attached itself to other beings. It was great how Baby was basically kind of weakling but by getting into more hosts he was able to become more powerful. I thought that was a great idea despite the fact that kind of ripped off both Cell's sneakiness and the whole Vegeta becoming evil thing but that's just really a nitpick thing. I will say though that I really, really loathe the idea of Baby being this Tsufurujin thing though. I've just never liked the idea of the whole Saiyajins fighting the Tsufurujins thing I don't know it just comes off as a bit lame to me.
I share the same idea on the concept of Baby having some potential but also being a slightly altered version of Cell (getting his power from others, also seen with Super Buu) and Majin Vegeta (although this time in a non-deliberate way).
Don't know why you don't like the Tsufuru-jin concept. It's basically there to explain why the Saiya-jin and Freeza's armies possess the equipment and technology they possess in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, but I've always viewed them as far too benevolent to actually generate someone who has a wish for vengeance on the Saiya-jin. They basically went for whatever was "new" they could grab onto.
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soulnova wrote:
I can see people going to cosplay Chef Vegeta next.
I loved every second of it. I liked the Chef Vegeta scene much MUCH better than the bingo dance. It fits him better... there has been promotional material with Vegeta doing food stuff like that instant noodle commercial and that song where he cooks.
What stole the show for me was the scene with Kid Vegeta. My fucking god, it was priceless to see Vegeta actually -trying- to stop Beerus from hurting his father. I'm not sure of what he said... has "honor and pride" involved in his lines? Otherwise... woah... He had a little saiyan heart afterall and he completely blocked that memory.
I lost my shit at Buu getting wrecked at the end. Like... they went completely overboard with how Beerus disposes of him. Holy shit.
Nah, he said something along the lines of "don't get too cocky!" or "don't get carried away!". He clearly didn't appreciate the humiliation his father was being subjected to.
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Nobody's discussing the animation or freaking out over it, or generating petitions that make it to the national f******* news or blowing issues entirely out of proportion. I knew that the fuss generated throughout the media and the internet over the animation/fighting choreography of last week's episode would go away just as quickly as it came. It actually reached the point of saturation quicker than I expected. Anyone who knows how information is conveyed in the internet and media in today's world understood that it would be a matter of days until the memes and petitions stopped. Nobody's even MENTIONING the subject anymore. I knew this would happen in a matter of days, but I'm really, really glad to have it confirmed.
NeoKING wrote:
Now I'm starting to see enough of a shift from just being a BoG rewrite. The tone in Super is a tone that Dragon Ball hasn't really dwelled upon much; that being a tone where even with all these comedic villains (Ava and Cado, Beerus and Whis), there's still something there to give the series a darker vibe it hasn't seen since the Cell Games.
That scene with Beerus and King Vegeta was already pretty eerie, but there was something disturbing about the way Beerus handled Buu. I almost felt bad for Buu.
Also, did anyone catch Vegeta's seiyuu's pronunciation of "Super Saiyan God?" Ryo Horikawa (?)'s English talents for you.
That line came a little off when compared to his usual way of speaking and pronouncing the words, but it obviously has to do with the fact he could barely move his muscles in his mouth to talk due to the fact he had been paralyzed by Beerus. He's more mumbling and whispering than he's talking at that point.
I've always viewed the degree of seriousness/desperation/drama throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, especially until the Majin Buu arc, as one of the fundamental aspects that made all those arcs so utterly fantastic and untouchable, along with a number of other aspects, of course. I'm glad that they're portraying each character - and especially Beerus - in a much darker/dramatic/chilling/ominous light. I'm sure that we hadn't seen BoG or if it never existed, we'd by now be thinking Beerus is much closer to a full-fledged villain than he actually is. He's much more serious, straight to the point and less willing to play and display his comic potential than what we've seen in BoG (especially when destroying the planets in the first two episodes, when he drops that line before mercilessly KO'ing Goku, and when he's shown humiliating King Vegeta to much farther degrees than what we've seen in the few seconds of the scene in the movie's version of the events).
Chiki wrote:
OMG
VEGETA MIGHT BE GOING SUPER SAIYAN 3!!
I'm so excited!!!!
He most likely won't, if they do have him transform somehow it most likely won't be into a full-fledged separate Super Saiya-jin stage, but rather some sort of mutation triggered by extreme anger which allows him to overcome the limits of power posed by his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage.
I actually made a point several times in other threads about how likely it is (or isn't) that he could achieve/become able to achieve Super Saiya-jin 3 at some point during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, and at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the movies' timeline - in order to have a particular personal theory on the different Super Saiya-jin stages proven right (the theory being that, if Vegeta is close to/on par with Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and IF what I've always thought - that the Super Saiya-jin God stage multiplies/increases the Saiya-jin's power at his STRONGEST, rather than whatever power he has in his base form, and furthermore it's achieved through an entirely different method when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin stages, which basically build upon the previous one, making SSJG more of a Kaio-Ken-esque transformation/stage than an actual follow-up to SSJ3 - is right, then for it to be possible that Vegeta is as strong as Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin in Fukkatsu no F, his strongest stage would also have to be as strong as Goku's (Super Saiya-jin 3, instead of Super Saiya-jin 2), meaning that Vegeta would basically be following Goku's every step (Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin), although just a little bit later.
If Vegeta is indeed as strong as Goku in his Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages without being/becoming able to achieve Super Saiya-jin 3 before, then the whole theory collapses, of course.
But like I said, I doubt it, and despite the massive differences they went for in this episode - especially when compared to the first five ones, which followed BoG's plot and lines almost on a copied sentence-by-sentence basis and in almost the same exact circumstances, even with the same exact expressions (facial and verbal) -, I think that's one minor/major change when compared to what happened in the movie that we won't see.
The fact that episode 7 has a title which makes the possibility of Vegeta transforming into something utterly new or separate doesn't increase the chances of the transformation, or "mutation", to use the precise word, meaning he'll go Super Saiya-jin 3 by much. If it was a "mere" transformation into Super Saiya-jin 3 they wouldn't be creating and generating all this hype and build-up for it, and they'd probably just use "transformation" in the episode's title to second it instead of "mutation" (not to mention they would probably show it straight away in this last episode's preview already, Vegeta achieving Super Saiya-jin 3 wouldn't be really something entirely new as a concept).
The "mutation" referred has most likely to do with a freak occurrence triggered by an explosion of anger which allows Vegeta to surpass the physical power limits allocated to the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage very temporarily.
Again, the fact that part of me would want to watch him go Super Saiya-jin during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper has only to do with the theory I described, it has absolutely nothing to do with visuals or fantasizing over it, like some do and have done for years; quite in fact, the physical characteristics of Super Saiya-jin 3 never appealed to me too much, and I think it would look awful especially on Vegeta, regardless of which clothes he wears.
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Taskmaster wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.
Until Beerus and Whiz show up, as far as anyone knows, Goku is the strongest.
Well, if you count only the good, non-fused guys (thus discarding Vegitto) who showed up during the Majin Buu arc, he'd be the strongest in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage (although I actually put Ultimate Gohan on par with him when he shows up to thrash Super Buu).
On the other hand, if you count everyone who showed up during the Majin Buu arc, two of the variations of Super Buu, Vegitto and possibly Kid Buu are stronger.
If you want to deal only with character who are alive or in existence AFTER the defeat of Kid Buu, then what I said in my first paragraph in this post applies, and you could somehow make that claim from that perspective (and that perspective only).
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I would expect his power-up to whatever he will reach, if any actual transformation at all, to be close to the end of the episode, and I'd also expect to see him charging at Beerus in his powered-up angry version and then the episode ends, just like many episodes of DBZ which ended in dramatic circumstances and/or when a warrior is charging at another, to build up tension and expectation for the next episode.
I think there's something like a 15% probability that he'll go Super Saiya-jin 3. That's my rough estimate.
Keep in mind that the episode title specifically refers to a "mutation", not a "transformation". I'd say the most likely scenario is that his anger over Beerus hitting Bulma will cause him to surpass the natural physical limits imposed to his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, going beyond what was supposed to be the stage's maximum level of power achievable. Part of me would like to see Vegeta turn Super Saiya-jin 3, or at least become potentially able to achieve the stage, for the reasons I specified before, but also for the reasons I specified before, another part of me doesn't. And I think it won't happen.
It's just going to be a temporary abnormal power-up instead of an actual physical transformation.
One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post on the matter was the fact that it would be kind of weird to undergo a transformation into Super Saiya-jin 3 as it is suggested that it's a particular SSJ transformation that is achieved through intense training (Goku) or some sort of extreme gift for fighting (Gotenks, Goku), instead of an explosion of anger, which was pretty much the trigger for the very first Super Saiya-jin stage (Goku over Freeza killing Krillin, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his own inability to surpass Kakarotto, Bardock over his dead comrades and his inability to fight evenly with Freeza/Chilled), as opposed to the method to achieve Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai (extreme and intensive training) and Super Saiya-jin Full Power (complete mastery of all aspects of the first Super Saiya-jin stage). On this regard, it's also interesting to see that the trigger for Gohan's Super Saiya-jin 2 was an explosion of anger, while the same can't be said about the way Goku and Vegeta both achieve it in the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc (there was obviously no issue over which to have an explosion of anger, so one can only reason they manage to attain it after intensive training).
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Taskmaster wrote:
No they assume Goku is the strongest Before, during and AFTER Buu (and this series is just a few months after Buu)
And because we don't know about all this hoopla you want to make (Gohan clearly has his Powerup in the preview for next episode), let's just stick to what they have told us.
Goku is #1
I've replied to you on the matter several times on another thread. The only way Goku COULD be called the strongest warrior there is is if you count only non-fused characters who are IN EXISTENCE (as in, still around) during the period after the defeat of Kid Buu and before Beerus and Whis arrive, in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, and even then I've always put Ultimate Gohan on par with him, at least when he showed up to thrash Super Buu. Before that, there are the events of the Majin Buu arc, and I'll address that in the subsequent paragraph.
Saying he's the strongest before or during the Majin Buu saga is a complete mistake. Even restricting the analysis to that arc only, there are two - the strongest - versions of Super Buu, Vegitto and perhaps even Kid Buu; all of them surpass Goku.
After Beerus and Whis show up, he's far from being the strongest in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, and even when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God - and even Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin - he's still below both of them.
Just because he is and always will be the main protagonist and the main hero of the series doesn't mean he's necessarily and automatically the strongest. The torch was supposed to have been passed decisively to Gohan at the Cell Games, and they even had Goku killed to facilitate the transition; they deliberately wanted to make Gohan the new main protagonist of DBZ, and that can be seen by the Great Sayaman saga and the opening for the Majin Buu arc, but that move was a complete failure; the only moment Gohan had to shine again was when he showed up as Ultimate Gohan and thrashed Super Buu, only to be, again, outmatched in a matter of two episodes; they even had Goku be again the one to finish off the main villain again, despite not being by himself power enough to have done so (although the attack he used was made up of energy collected BY him, it didn't belong TO him, he would never been able to defeat Kid Buu by himself alone).
HybridSaiyan wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Beerus and Buu fight was brilliant!
So Beerus spinning Buu like a cowgirl in kiddy cartoon style was brilliant? I was laughing while watching it.
The way he absolutely THRASHES fat Majin Buu was, for lack of a better word, brutal, or violent. He destroyed him mercilessly, just like he dramatically and brutally KO'd Goku with two martial arts moves (and not so much a simple masterfully-applied pressure-point attack to the neck seen in the movie, which shows the contrast in terms of how he's been portrayed in a much more serious and dramatic way in DBSuper when compared to BoG - he mercilessly destroys planets, humilates King Vegeta to much deeper proportions and even throws a badass line at Goku before brutally rendering him unconscious).
Rukura wrote:
Here's something that's been bending my brain a bit:
Piccolo is fused with the previous God of Earth. Because of that, he was able to sense Kaioshin as being of a higher rank in the god hierarchy. And both Kaio and Kaioshin can sense what Beerus was up to. (I recall Kaio saying something along the lines of being glad Goku can't sense gods)
Yet here's Beerus and neither Piccolo nor Dende, theoretically gods that can sense other gods, know that anything is up with him.
Am I missing something here?
Kami is a deity but he's just the Guardian (God) of one planet. He knows about Kaiou-sama, but has never met him. Kaiou-sama KNOWS about the Kaioshin, but never met them. Piccolo obviously knows about the Kaioshin as well in the World Tournament saga, and also obviously never met him. Beerus is so high in the hierarchy of Gods that only Kaiou-sama or Kaioshin even KNOW about him (and actually interacted with him in the past, due to Beerus' laid-backness and the fact that he has no problem showing himself to virtually anyone in the "lower realms". Piccolo (as in, possessing Kami's knowledge) is too low a "deity" to know about Beerus and Whis, he's just as clueless as to who or what he is as all the others - except Vegeta, the Kaioshin and Kaiou-sama - are.
rereboy wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
The series never became serious until Piccolo Daimo show up in my opinion.
And the Piccolo Daimao arc is arguably more serious and dark than even the Z arcs. Besides the shift in focus of tone, we had the first deaths of the main cast and the Dragon Balls were destroyed without us having any idea of how possibly that could be fixed. In Z, before the Dragon Balls were destroyed, we had already heard from Vegeta that there were probably other Dragon Balls in Namek and after that there was never a moment with at least one set of Dragon Balls working.
Exactly, the appearance of Piccolo Daimao pretty much marks the slight (or not so slight) but decisive shift in the road DB was taking. Toriyama himself admitted that he wanted to introduce a true villain, someone psychotic and absolutely evil, who would kill and torture for please, the first, real, TRUE enemy, villain and nemesis for Goku and the other good guys. The move was a complete success. My kanji says it all. Even though we understandably still see a number of comic instances in the arc itself, the whole atmosphere surrounding Piccolo Daimao and his rampage of killing, enslaving and murdering plus the fact that he was for a long sequence of episodes thought by Muten Roshi to be a legendary invincible opponent to the point of causing him shock and sending shivers down his spine upon seeing his symbol for the first time in episode 102 of DB is comparable to the arcs in DBZ in terms of seriousness and drama (and in some cases, superior to some of them), although in DB we're restricted to Earth, while in DBZ we explore space, with genocidal maniacal ruthless aliens, insanely powerful cyborgs, demons and magical creatures, while the same concept of supposed villain invincibility (Vegeta, Freeza - especially -, #17 and #18, Cell) is repeated until some sort of insane power-up is finally achieved by someone to overcome the strongest of main villain once and for all (Goku only overcomes his episodes-long inability to come even close to Freeza by undergoing a dramatic first Super Saiya-jin transformation, Gohan only overcomes Cell by losing it and going Super Saiya-jin 2).
On the whole seriousness/desperation/drama element present in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs, I've always viewed it as a fundamental aspect of what made DBZ so great and fantastic (to me, personally, and to a lot of fans, presumably) and a step forward when compared to the entirety of DB, but that's just me and it depends on what each one wants to see in a show. Hardcore male fans tend to put more emphasis on the fighting choreography, on badass scenes of powering-up and major beatings, blood and guts, violence, martial arts combined with manipulation of Ki that make up for probably the most unreal and fantastic fights anime has ever seen.
DB was 70% comic and 30% serious, DBZ was more like 90% serious and 10% comic. I mean, there's REAL violence, deaths, genocide, hopeless circumstances, blood and guts, especially between the introduction of Piccolo Daimao until the end of the Cell arc, with the highest peak of seriousness and violence probably reached in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs.
However, even if you're like me, a fan of Dragonball for over two decades, in your early 30's, having watched and recorded every single episode of DB and DBZ as it originally ran back in the 80's and 90's, having followed every single step of the franchise then, possessing quite a respectable amount of Dragonball merchandise, DVDs and manga, and having watched every single episode of DBZ hundreds of times over the years almost on a daily basis to the point where you find yourself able to understand almost everything uttered by the characters in Japanese without needing subtitles, you're bound to understand that there was indeed humor and sometimes even the nonsensical randomness in DBZ that also generated a lot of laughs in DB, and sometimes they don't come in the episodes in-between major arcs, they're thrown in in the middle of the seriousness and drama.
You're not obligated to like every single aspect of Dragonball, and you're entitled to criticize some of its debatable flaws, but DBZ was about character development, seriousness, insane fighting, values, drama, desperation, hopelessness and a few instances of comic relief/randomness. The less serious arc in all of DBZ is the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas after so many years of having consistently, constantly and incessantly to put up with the pressure of delivering major plots, character backgrounds and fantastic fighting and its respective build-up. It's understandable, but that's why he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible and why throughout the Majin Buu arc you already start to see some of the lack of tension and silliness that some fans criticize in GT or DBSuper.
DBSuper is not DB, nor is it DBZ. It's being made 18 years after the last series ended, and as such it has to be seen and analyzed in a entirely different light, even taking into account the sheer passage of time; they went for a focus on exploring the comic aspect of most characters (especially Vegeta, in this episode) and we can't blame them. They're entitled to make their own decisions plot-wise. DBSuper does indeed have flaws and shortcomings, but it would be inconceivable to have it as a successful honorable direct continuation to DBZ if you went for it thinking it would be as serious and dramatic as all the arcs in DBZ were; I'm a hardcore fan of insane fighting and desperate/hopeless/dramatic/serious circumstances, but I still get hyped every single time I even think about DBSuper and I have orgasms while I'm watching each episode as it's airing in Japan, but animation-wise, and also from a point of view of fighting choreography and character development, it's nowhere near DBZ and doesn't pretend to be. The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ is 80's and 90's stuff, iconic, unforgettable, untouchable. It should be surprising that we're actually getting a follow-up full-fledged entirely new series in 2015 and we're watching it on a weekend by weekend basis, and still hard to believe. If they went down the road of creating an extremely serious, fighting-oriented series, focusing on the most serious characters (Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku) and keeping their complete degree of seriousness, a large chunk of hardcore fans would be losing it and having orgasms every day, but the series would also reach a much more limited audience, would probably be much shorter and wouldn't be as available as it has been up until now and will continue to be. It's a double-edged sword. On the other hand, you've got the fans who attach more to the comic aspects of Dragonball, and those have a higher potential to be absolutely happy with DBSuper than the first ones.
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GT should better be seen as entirely non-canon, hence it doesn't even have - or need to have - its own canon status, just like the 13 DBZ Movies don't. They depict "what-if?" scenarios, exploring some characters with some potential to them although with obviously weak plots due to the time restraints typical of a movie.
In my view, canon is whatever doesn't contradict or generate timeline inconsistencies with the series' main, one and only timeline, and as such my list of canon events is as follows:
1 - Bardock Special
2 - DB
3 - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs
4 - Trunks Special (future timeline)
5 - DBZ Jinzouningen and Cell arcs
6 - Movie 9
7 - DBZ Majin Buu arc
8 - DBSuper Beerus arc
9 - DBSuper Freeza arc
10 - DBSuper 6th Universe arc
11 - Last 3 episodes of DBZ
The issue over Jaco/Bardock Special has been addressed before, I'm adding it as canon because the last confrontation of Bardock against Freeza still happens. Movie 1 COULD have happened in-between the end of DB and the Saiya-jin Saga, shortly before the arrival of Raditz, but Krillin is shown not to know Goku has a son in episode 2 of DBZ, when he clearly met him in Movie 1. Movie 13 COULD take place right after the Majin Buu arc, if they hadn't used the Dragon Balls in the movie. The 2008 Tarble Special is still subject to debate, there's really nothing there that make it impossible to have happened, but I'm remaining rather cautious on that one and I deliberately refrained from including it in the post-Majin Buu timing.
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Captain Space wrote:
I'd have guessed for length, yeah. "God of Destruction" isn't terribly unwieldy ("terribly unwieldy" would be, say, "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan"*), but it definitely doesn't flow as well as "Hakaishin"; "Destroyer" fixes this.
(*though ironically SSGSS' name is less of a problem in the dub since they never say it in the movie XD)
The issue with the term or denomination Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin for the stage goes beyond the time it takes to write the entire thing, it's just it's lack of innovation. Toriyama could have gone for a totally new and much more innovative denomination for the stage other than repeating the "Super Saiya-jin" and adding just "Super Saiya-jin" to the "Super Saiya-jin God", taking into account his brilliant mind. I guess what he wanted to express was the fact that it was that Goku and Vegeta turned Super Saiya-jin while in the base stage of having absorbed and incorporated the power and abilities of Super Saiya-jin God (technically a stage referred to as Saiya-jin Beyond God), as in, Goku and Vegeta undergo the process of turning Super Saiya-jin and the result, after having absorbed and incorporated the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God even in their normal stage, is the blue Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (as in, a Super Saiya-jin God who then turned Super Saiya-jin). I've got my own theories on how both the SSJ and the SSJGSSJ stages work when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations.
I've always viewed the SSJ stage as more of a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up than an actual follow-up to the what was supposed to be the previous stage (Super Saiya-jin 3, since it was Goku's strongest stage when he achieves SSJ). As for the SSJGSSJ stage, I believe it's a completely mastery of the SSJG stage with the addition of the natural fighting and tension tendencies of any Super Saiya-jin transformation, while keeping all the benefits of the SSJG stage, along with a slight increase in Ki.
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ArchedThunder wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
Spoiler:View
I can't wait until Gokû and Vegeta meet up in Super.
"It's n-not like I l-like him or anything, b-baka."
He's obviously internally conflicting with the whole idea of Goku being his nemesis and his constant years-long obsession with surpassing Kakarotto and his numerous instances of having become rather comfortable with the fact that he's not going to go to extreme lengths or kill people over the idea, as he was willing to do in the early Majin Buu arc (letting himself purposely be possessed by Babidi to achieve a power-up and killing hundreds of people at the stadium just to persuade Goku to fight; and when they do fight, he's more than willing to actually kill Goku in more than one occasion).
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LightBing wrote:
Something I just noticed. King Vegeta is a redhead...; I'm not sure if he's always been portrayed as such, but that's a inconsistency. All pure blooded Saiyans should have black hair. Beerus mentions it in the episode were he sees Super Saiyan Goku. And we already know it from Vegeta himself from Dragon Ball. This is nothing serious but they should at least watch their own show...
The Saiya-jin's hair is genetically extremely dark, not exactly totally black. Even Vegeta himself is shown to have dark-brown/reddish hair in some shots, especially during the Saiya-jin arc, a trait which he took from King Vegeta, who was indeed portrayed as having dark-brown/reddish hair in flashbacks during the Freeza arc, in a particular flashback of a Vegeta dream in the build-up to the Jinzouningen arc and in Movie 8.
It's not like ALL Saiya-jins have genetically totally black hair, it's rather either totally black or, in some instances, extremely dark but brown-dark or reddish-dark, as is the case of King Vegeta.
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rereboy wrote:
kidhero1000 wrote:
Because these days, it's those situations that has become the reason they train for.
Er... Yamcha and the others were interested in martial arts and in training long before they were fighting monsters and tyrants so, no. Fighting threats is not their default reason for training and enjoying martial arts and whether they are irrelevant for the upcoming threats or there are no threats left, they would still have their default reason for training and enjoying martial arts. Yamcha might not train as hard as he did in the saiyan arc, for example, but that doesn't mean he's absolutely uninterested in martial arts and training. Even Goku's interest in martial arts and training is, first and foremost, because he loves it, not any threat, and Goku would still train very hard even if he knew that there were no more threats in the future.
There are two main reasons to keep training as a martial artist: to become stronger and keep your friendly rivalry with your friends alive, and to keep on your toes just in case a new serious menace shows up. The first reason is used more thoroughly in DB (and seen especially in the build-up for the Tenkaichi Budokais) and the second one is more used throughout the arcs of DBZ, although there's a lot of friendly rivalry too in DBZ, especially characters who don't want to be pushed to the side-lines and want to keep up at least from a martial arts point of view with Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo or Gohan, who achieve insane increases of hundreds of times what their power used to be especially in the Freeza saga. One could argue that the power level of the main warriors develops tens of times in the Saiya-jin, Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, but in the Freeza arcs we can see comparing between the beginning, when they arrive on Namek, and the end, Goku's, Vegeta's and Piccolo's power is literally HUNDREDS of times what it was - that's the real saga where powers just skyrocket insanely and make the likes of Goku, Vegeta or Piccolo simply too far-ahead from the likes of Tenshinhan, Krillin or Yamcha, who are and remain for the rest of the series in an entirely different, much lower tier.
However, and going back to what both of you said a little more, even if you are - and KNOW that you are - completely outclassed an simply nowhere near Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo or any of the main villains throughout the arcs, you, because of your character or your history/background, simply have an interest in continuing to train martial arts, just like Tenshinhan, Yamcha or Chaozu do.
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Noah wrote:
Don't you guys find a little weird that Beerus doesn't know who is Majin Boo? I mean a Hakaishin is the opposite of a Kaioshin and even Kais know about Boo, why Beerus don't?
He was probably asleep during Majin Buu's rampages and wasn't informed by Whis, who most likely does know about it. He happened to be awake at times in which Freeza was around, but didn't happen to be when Kid Buu or fat Majin Buu were unleashed on the planets and the Kaioshin. He probably has the same, or even superior abilities in terms of knowing what's going on in the Universe when compared to the Kaioshin and the Kaiou-samas, but given his character, his laid-backness and unwillingness to dig deep into any subject unless at his whim, he just didn't find it upon himself necessary to search through the Universe's history or ask Whis what exactly happened in every corner of the Universe.
Whis would probably take it upon himself to let him know in case it was something that required Beerus' attention, such as the fact that Majin Buu was basically destroying every single planet in sight during his first rampage millions of years ago, which, if not prevented - which it was - could endanger the balance which is mentioned to be needed in the Universe between creation and destruction - that would have directly to do with Beerus.
It is in fact interesting to have both of them interact, since both of them date back millions of years ago, they both share a relationship with the Kaioshin, both of them are/were known for destroying planets across the Universe and both of them are introduced during or slightly after the Majin Buu arc (besides one being pink and the other one being a stronger version of it, violet). On top of that, Freeza says in Fukkatsu no F that he heard from his father that the only two beings he should never cross in the entire Universe were precisely Majin Buu and Hakaishin Beerus.
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sangofe wrote:
It makes me laugh when I read comments like "I'm so happy Toei listend to their fans."... From one episode, to another. Geez, they seriously think that with 4-5 days, Toei could've made a difference from episode 5 to 6? Like, seriously?
They can indeed make some small corrections in the "last minute", even though the episodes' storyline, plot, lines and scenes are all prepared weeks or even months in advance. They obviously won't be able to change an entire episode's animation in a matter of days, but they can do indeed make some small corrections. You can tell that part of the drawing aspect for episode 6 looked as if it had a weaker base, which they partially fixed; it's the fact that it was a partial fix on something which was the basis of it that made it possible to notice that originally some of the scenes were actually badly animated or drawn.
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
I don't understand the complaints of Super comapred to the gospel that is Dragon Ball Z when it gave us crap like Gohan lost in the woods, Gohan making friends with a robot, Goku running down snake way for what seemed an eternity and almost making out with a Snake Princess. Totally edge of your seat stuff right...right?
Compared to early Dragon Ball Z, Super has been amazing so far. We actually get development and learning of a villain before he arrives on Earth, we see Goku completely destroyed. We see a Vegeta who is willing to throw his pride away for the sake of his friends and family following his development from the Buu Saga and we actually got entertaining slice of life episodes.
It's baseless shit like this that really annoys me. First of all, some of those were filler - and even then, they were small moments in between the darker and more serious moments in DBZ where people's lives were actually on the line.
Second :
Compared to early Dragon Ball Z, Super has been amazing so far. We actually get development and learning of a villain before he arrives on Earth, we see Goku completely destroyed. We see a Vegeta who is willing to throw his pride away for the sake of his friends and family following his development from the Buu Saga and we actually got entertaining slice of life episodes.
For the first 6 episodes of Super we got piss poor characterization, bullshit slice of life filler, Beerus being a dick (who cares? we learned almost absolutely nothing about him), an extremely poorly animated "fight" that consisted of Goku punching the air for 10 minutes, & Vegeta "throwing his pride away" was a joke. It meant a lot more when he fused with Goku.
Early Dragonball Z gave us Raditz's arrival in the first episode. We were introduced to a menacing character with a much more fleshed out background and personality than we have yet to see in Super. We were introduced to the revelation that Goku is an alien, our hero was given an ultimatum, a tense & foreboding meeting between Piccolo and Raditz, a very well choreographed and animated fight between the three, Gohan's hidden powers, another revelation that even stronger enemies are on the way, etc.
All of that BLOWS Super out of the water within the first 5 episodes. We had a plethora of new concepts introduced and to be honest the fights weren't as earth shattering as Z eventually came to be, but they were well executed and had an ominous tension surrounding them. Super is treating every character like they are 12 years old and introducing nothing of substance. It relies on exaggerating character tropes we've all been accustomed to in order to make up for the fact that there's nothing really there. Don't pretend like the first 6 episodes have been amazing - they have been really fucking lackluster on all fronts and that's putting it nicely.
I absolutely agree with the ominousness and seriousness of the background given from episode 1 of DBZ, with the arrival of Raditz and his interaction with Piccolo, not to mention the events of episode 2, with Raditz revealing every shocking detail to Goku, kidnapping his nephew, and then, ultimately, the forgery of an uneasy alliance to proceed to a fantastically animated fight which ended with the brutal death by impalement of two brothers, one of them being the series' main protagonist, in a penetrating wave of demonic light, after which he happens to spit out blood more than once and, while dying, reveals to Piccolo that two of his pals are coming to Earth, and they're much stronger than even him, putting their chances at near-0.
These were the first five episodes of DBZ. The background music was fantastic, the fighting choreography was delicious, the drama and seriousness couldn't be portrayed in a better way, the plot was basically set for many, many episodes and two arcs of violence, blood, war, genocide, drama and desperation (in the Saiya-jin arc, in the Namek saga and in the entire Freeza arc there's just as much blood, violence, drama and seriousness as in the beginning of DBZ).
As a hardcore male fan, I regard the seriousness, drama, desperation and fighting choreography as a fundamental part of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so fantastic and untouchable.
However, DBSuper is not only happening 18 years after the last series ended, and 24 to 26 (!) years after the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs first came out, with all the necessary changes and adaptations to the times, it apparently is targeted mostly at a different audience and cannot, under any circumstances, be seen and analyzed in the same light as DB and DBZ in none of its aspects or from any point of view. You cannot and should not compare it, not even animation-wise, and if you go to watch DBSuper with the kind of attitude "I'm going to compare this to DBZ to see if it lives up to it in fighting choreography, seriousness, drama, blood and guts, violence" you're obviously in for a major, major disappointment.
The introduction of Beerus and his previously-unseen character (laid-backness and some comic elements, despite being the (second) most powerful entity in the entire Universe) and the entirety of BoG was beyond enjoyable, it was a full-fledged fantastic movie, but not even that should be compared to DBZ from any perspective. DBSuper is taking on most, or virtually all elements from BoG (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God), and is a retelling of the movie's events in almost the same exact circumstances, with a few minor changes and additions and with obviously and expected worse animation. If you enjoyed BoG, as I assume you did, you'd at least try to give DBSuper a chance before rushing to treat anyone who enjoys it as an idiot.
I enjoy DBSuper and I get orgasms whenever I think about it and the fact that I get to see an entirely new Dragonball episode every single Saturday/Sunday, and this is coming from a guy who values and identifies seriousness, violence and drama as a fundamental aspect of the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, and regards the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs as 80's and 90's untouchable stuff which will never meet its match in terms of overall quality and atmosphere. This is how you should start and where you start from when "preparing" yourself to watch DBSuper, and pretty much anything they've thrown our way recently after 11 years of inactivity (the 2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F). You need to adapt to the times and understand that you'll never see a character spitting blood from his mouth after a major whole has been put to his chest by a demonic wave of light with an ominous soundtrack in the back, in circumstances and in a whole atmosphere of drama, desperation and seriousness. DBSuper is never going to give you that or live up to that, and it's not meant to nor is it capable of doing it.
I hope I've proven that it's possible to both agree and disagree with you at the same time, and that it's possible to view DBZ as untouchable, viewing its seriousness and drama, its violence and insane fighting as the key element, and to enjoy and look forward to and be satisfied with pretty much everything DBSuper has given us so far.
Maybe one of my earlier posts on the subject of DBSuper vs DB/DBZ does a better job of conveying my point:
"The appearance of Piccolo Daimao pretty much marks the slight (or not so slight) but decisive shift in the road DB was taking. Toriyama himself admitted that he wanted to introduce a true villain, someone psychotic and absolutely evil, who would kill and torture for please, the first, real, TRUE enemy, villain and nemesis for Goku and the other good guys. The move was a complete success. My kanji says it all. Even though we understandably still see a number of comic instances in the arc itself, the whole atmosphere surrounding Piccolo Daimao and his rampage of killing, enslaving and murdering plus the fact that he was for a long sequence of episodes thought by Muten Roshi to be a legendary invincible opponent to the point of causing him shock and sending shivers down his spine upon seeing his symbol for the first time in episode 102 of DB is comparable to the arcs in DBZ in terms of seriousness and drama (and in some cases, superior to some of them), although in DB we're restricted to Earth, while in DBZ we explore space, with genocidal maniacal ruthless aliens, insanely powerful cyborgs, demons and magical creatures, while the same concept of supposed villain invincibility (Vegeta, Freeza - especially -, #17 and #18, Cell) is repeated until some sort of insane power-up is finally achieved by someone to overcome the strongest of main villain once and for all (Goku only overcomes his episodes-long inability to come even close to Freeza by undergoing a dramatic first Super Saiya-jin transformation, Gohan only overcomes Cell by losing it and going Super Saiya-jin 2).
On the whole seriousness/desperation/drama element present in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, I've always viewed it as a fundamental aspect of what made DBZ so great and fantastic (to me, personally, and to a lot of fans, presumably) and a step forward when compared to the entirety of DB, but that's just me and it depends on what each one wants to see in a show. Hardcore male fans tend to put more emphasis on the fighting choreography, on badass scenes of powering-up and major beatings, blood and guts, violence, martial arts combined with manipulation of Ki that make up for probably the most unreal and fantastic fights anime has ever seen.
DB was 70% comic and 30% serious, DBZ was more like 90% serious and 10% comic. I mean, there's REAL violence, deaths, genocide, hopeless circumstances, blood and guts, especially between the introduction of Piccolo Daimao until the end of the Cell arc, with the highest peak of seriousness and violence probably reached in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs.
However, even if you're like me, a fan of Dragonball for over two decades, in your early 30's, having watched and recorded every single episode of DB and DBZ as it originally ran back in the 80's and 90's, having followed every single step of the franchise then, possessing quite a respectable amount of Dragonball merchandise, DVDs and manga, and having watched every single episode of DBZ hundreds of times over the years almost on a daily basis to the point where you find yourself able to understand almost everything uttered by the characters in Japanese without needing subtitles, you're bound to understand that there was indeed humor and sometimes even the nonsensical randomness in DBZ that also generated a lot of laughs in DB, and sometimes they don't come in the episodes in-between major arcs, they're thrown in in the middle of the seriousness and drama.
You're not obligated to like every single aspect of Dragonball, and you're entitled to criticize some of its debatable flaws, but DBZ was about character development, seriousness, insane fighting, values, drama, desperation, hopelessness and a few instances of comic relief/randomness. The less serious arc in all of DBZ is the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas after so many years of having consistently, constantly and incessantly to put up with the pressure of delivering major plots, character backgrounds and fantastic fighting and its respective build-up. It's understandable, but that's why he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible and why throughout the Majin Buu arc you already start to see some of the lack of tension and silliness that some fans criticize in GT or DBSuper.
DBSuper is not DB, nor is it DBZ. It's being made 18 years after the last series ended, and as such it has to be seen and analyzed in a entirely different light, even taking into account the sheer passage of time; they went for a focus on exploring the comic aspect of most characters (especially Vegeta, in this episode) and we can't blame them. They're entitled to make their own decisions plot-wise. DBSuper does indeed have flaws and shortcomings, but it would be inconceivable to have it as a successful honorable direct continuation to DBZ if you went for it thinking it would be as serious and dramatic as all the arcs in DBZ were; I'm a hardcore fan of insane fighting and desperate/hopeless/dramatic/serious circumstances, but I still get hyped every single time I even think about DBSuper and I have orgasms while I'm watching each episode as it's airing in Japan, but animation-wise, and also from a point of view of fighting choreography and character development, it's nowhere near DBZ and doesn't pretend to be. The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ is 80's and 90's stuff, iconic, unforgettable, untouchable. It should be surprising that we're actually getting a follow-up full-fledged entirely new series in 2015 and we're watching it on a weekend by weekend basis, and still hard to believe. If they went down the road of creating an extremely serious, fighting-oriented series, focusing on the most serious characters (Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku) and keeping their complete degree of seriousness, a large chunk of hardcore fans would be losing it and having orgasms every day, but the series would also reach a much more limited audience, would probably be much shorter and wouldn't be as available as it has been up until now and will continue to be. It's a double-edged sword. On the other hand, you've got the fans who attach more to the comic aspects of Dragonball, and those have a higher potential to be absolutely happy with DBSuper than the first ones."
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LowRyder2005 wrote:
Captain Space wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
That takes us to the next point: Dragon Ball Z was never made expressly for "children". It was clearly targeting teens or young adults throughout its entire run: murder, genocide, violence, blood and gore were a constant throughout all of DBZ, straight from Raditz up to Kid Buu. The average child, by all means and accounts, is unsuited to properly digest similar themes.
Dragon Ball, on the other hand, is mostly suitable for "children" the way you intend it, minus probably the occasional innuendos and dirty jokes.
This is sort of an odd point, since "Dragon Ball" and "Dragon Ball Z" is an arbitrary distinction; in the original run of the manga, it's all one story. The shift in tone begins well before the "Z" portion starts, and the Buu saga has the most silliness seen in the series for a long time.
You could put it that way, but the "Dragon Ball Z" arc was conceived at first with the express intent to give closure to Dragon Ball and Toriyama itself chose to name it that way. While the seriousness starts already in late Dragon Ball, probably near the end with Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr., it still doesn't compare to what happens in the Saiyan and Namek Saga: systematical genocides, planets exploding, almost overlong killing sprees, not even counting stuff like kidnapping and beating up little children - in excruciatingly graphic detail, unlike the comedy in Dragon Ball - and almost every single beloved Dragon Ball secondary (and primary) characters dying in a bunch of volumes/episodes (even though the Piccolo Daimao saga has still a considerable body count).
Besides, in the Buu Saga we still have a conspicuous amount of really dark scenes and nightmare fuel, mostly steaming from Majin Buu himself:
* The horrifying scene of Fat Buu making Babidi's head with his bare hands (with the manga panel zooming in to Babidi's fresh corpse, still in Buu's hand, blood pouring from the top).
* Super Buu murdering every single person on the planet.
* Super Buu absorbing people with his goo (pure nightmare fuel).
And my favourite in maybe the entire scenes: becoming liquid, diving inside a man and making him explode like an inflated balloon. Body horror which would be enough to rate a single movie TV-14 or higher.
Then there's Vegeta murdering innocent people again, Spopovich brutalizing Videl and minor stuff like dogs and people being shot by firearms. Still, not a story for children in the slightest and well above anything that happened pre-Z.
I remember when DBZ was originally running for the first time in my country the entire debate and public outrage over how violent the series was for little children, even bringing in psychiatrists to analyze just how damaging this stuff would be for their emotional development as adolescents and adults, etc.
Let's be clear about one thing once and for all: DB began as a comic innocent series, but at some point, and for some reason, Toriyama just reached the darkest recesses of his mind and somehow came up with the idea of darker and darker subject matter, and one could argue that the Red Ribbon Army arc (with General Blue and his nazi reminiscence, people and entire armies getting killed, etc.), the introduction of an assassin (who does kill people mercilessly for money on screen) like Tao Pai Pai or the entire seriousness behind the character of Tenshinhan were the build-up to the REAL, first absolutely full-fledged ominous and serious/dramatic arc, which was the Piccolo Daimao one; Toriyama himself stated that all the previous characters were just too likable to be taken seriously as villains, hence he deliberately made Piccolo Daimao the incarnation of evil, a true, psychotic worldwide menace who kills and tortures hundreds of people, including Goku's best friend and some of the supporting cast. He's followed by his son/reincarnation, and the Piccolo Daimao and the Piccolo Jr. arcs share just about the same degree of seriousness/desperation/drama as what would follow. The manga makes no distinction, but Toriyama put a very deliberate line between DB and DBZ, choosing to go in an entirely different route with the introduction of Raditz, by having the story go back to Goku's background, explaining that him having a tail and freakish strength was actually due to the fact that he was an alien belonging to a long-lost race of blood-thirsty violent murdering warriors, setting the scene for something that went beyond Earth and actually reaching out to outer space and the entire Universe, will all the potential such a move has.
It could be argued that that the Saiya-jin and the Namek/Freeza arcs are the most violent in terms of blood and guts (Nappa rips Tenshinhan's arm off, Piccolo drills a whole through two brothers with a piercing wave of demonic light, after which one of them spits out blood more than once, Freeza rips Nail's arm off, Ginyu blows a hole through his own chest, Vegeta mercilessly kills an ENORMOUS amount of Freeza's regular AND elite soldiers in the most ruthless way, Vegeta blows a Saibaiman to pieces, Vegeta mercilessly and ruthlessly executes his long-time comrade by basically blowing him up, etc., etc., ALL OF THIS on-screen, in gory detail). This is dark, gory, violent stuff, and I regard it as one of the fundamental aspects of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so great.
It might be because I'm a male, hardcore DBZ fan in his early 30's who views the fighting choreography and violence/drama/desperation/seriousness as what made the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs so appealing, alongside numerous other aspects, as 80's and 90's unforgettable, untouchable stuff.
The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ were extremely violent and dramatic; we were presented with genocidal maniacal aliens, ultra-powerful cyborgs and magical/demonic entities bent on destruction and death.
It could also be argued that by the Majin Buu arc Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas, after so many years of having to put up with the pressure of constantly, consistently and incessantly coming up with ideas for events, stages, storylines, character backgrounds, etc., which is why we could already see in the Majin Buu arc some of the silliness and lack of seriousness we were presented to in GT, which basically took on the very worst/least good elements of the later stages of DBZ and none of the best elements from any of it. Yes, there are extremely violent instances in the Majin Buu arc (Super Buu executes nearly all of humankind with a single martial arts move, he blows a human up from the inside by liquifying and entering his body through his mouth, he blows Babidi's head up, after which it still moves, Videl gets martial arts-raped by Spopovitch, Babidi literally blows a human's head up by telekinesis, he blows Spopovitch up after deforming his body to the point he bleeds from his nose, Vegeta blowing up hundreds of people at a stadium without even looking at them just to persuade his nemesis to fight, etc., etc.), but somehow the degree of silliness present in the Majin Buu arc just isn't there in the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs (speaking of the latter, Cell is presented as a bio-energy-sucking monster with utterly no respect for any life other than his own, absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans in a horrific way, proceeding to destroy human-filled islands just to flush out #18, displaying his power with an aura consisting of the screaming people he killed through absorption, mercilessly blowing a hole straight through Piccolo after he breaking his neck with a violent punch to the face, etc., etc.).
Does DBSuper offer any of this? No, and it doesn't mean to. It's possible to be a hardcore maniacally loving consumer of the insane fights and genocides, psychotic villains throughout DBZ and still enjoy DBSuper, with all of its humor and silliness. I'm living proof of that. Beerus is indeed being portrayed in a much darker/dramatic/serious/ominous/chilling light compared to BoG (seen in the way he deals with the planets in the first two episodes, the way he mercilessly THRASHES Majin Buu, the way he humiliates King Vegeta to much higher proportions than in BoG, the way he drops that last line before he RUTHLESSLY and BRUTALLY KO's Goku, rendering him unconscious to the point of almost KILLING him), and since Toriyama was entirely fresh after so many years of activity, the quality of his ideas was apparent again after we were presented to the entirely innovative concept of Beerus, who combines comic aspects and laid-backness with the sheer fact that he's an unstoppable Hakaishin, the (second) most powerful there is in the entire Universe, with a taste for both delicious food and blowing up planets, with it being impossible to deem him "evil" nor "good"; he's none of them, and no one's ally, he's been tasked with a "mission" and merely sees to it that it's carried out, with a few instances of acting at his whim, blowing a little bit more up than he's supposed to, but he's far, far away from the likes of Freeza or Cell, or even Vegeta in his early days, when it comes to call him a full-fledged insane, psychotic, maniacal, genocidal villain - he's definitely not that, he doesn't want to be, and is not just different from that, he's rather BEYOND that. Beerus' character + power combo is something entirely new as a concept in Dragonball, and that's also why he's so appealing as a character and why he's been so well-received and praised as an addition to the history of the franchise.
I don't really give two sh**s at who DBSuper, or any of the stuff they're thrown our way in recent years, after 11 years of inactivity (2008 special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F), is directed to in terms of target audience, or the age range or whatever it is. The sheer fact that it's, for more than one reason, a worthy direct follow-up of DBZ, regardless of its level of seriousness, rigidity or drama, is what matters to me, and I don't mind seeing Vegeta acting silly.
DBSuper needs to be seen from a totally different perspective, even taking into account the sheer passage of time and the need for one (and for the series) to adapt to the times and to the changes in the way the world works in 2015 when compared to the 80's and 90's. If you happen to value the drama/seriousness/desperation/violence throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ as its main quality, or one of its main qualities, and you prepare yourself to watch DBSuper expecting the same degree of those factors and condiments, you're in for a major, major disappointment, and that might explain why SOME fans are reacting badly to it. However, again, I'm living proof that you can be a hardcore fan of brutal violence, drama, desperation, genocides, psychotic villains and insane fighting AND at the same time get orgasms just at the sheer thought of getting to watch an entirely new episode of DBSuper every single week(end).
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Sora Saiyan wrote:
Freezas forms weren't true transformations, they were just there to keep his power restricted.
120 million works because of Goku. If Freeza was only at 12 million then Goku would only be at 300,000 which is well below Freeza's first form. As you can tell by Gokus reaction after healing he was totally amazed by his own power, and this was even after sensing battle powers in the millions. He was definitely above everyone bar Freeza at the time.
I beg to disagree. While it's true that at the point Vegeta was being massacred and Goku's healing was complete in episodes 85/86 Goku was the strongest warrior to stand up to Freeza (when compared to Vegeta and Piccolo), after receiving another huge Zenkai after his battle with the Ginyu Tokusentai, he could only achieve that with the Kaio-Ken technique (10x and then even as far as 20x); his BASE power level after coming out of the healing chamber is still below that of Vegeta and indeed that of Piccolo (at roughly 250.000, which multiplies by 10x makes 2.500.000 and by 20x makes 5.000.000); both Vegeta's (both before he received his final Zenkai after Krillin purposely blew a hole through his chest and especially AFTER it) and Piccolo's power level exceed Goku's in the latter's base form. The same applies, for example, in the Saiya-jin arc: Goku's maximum in his base form was 8.000, he could only be a match for Vegeta by resorting to the Kaio-Ken technique (x2 at first, then x3 and ultimately x4). Thus, it's debatable whether or not Goku is actually THE strongest warrior besides Freeza, since he can only fight somewhat toe-to-toe with him by resorting to the Kaio-Ken technique, which is obviously just as legitimate as any other fighting technique.
That's why he says while he's on the healing chamber that after Freeza transformed into his third form that by then it was starting to feel that he was not going to be able to beat Freeza after all (because the highest degree of Kaio-Ken his body was supposed to handle was x10, or, pushing it to desperate extremes, x20, and his previous base power level was 60.000 - 60.000 x 20 = 1.200.000); since Freeza's power level in his first stage is 530.000 and in his second stage around 1.000.000, it makes perfect sense that Goku would say that since Freeza only overcomes a potential Goku's desperate 20x Kaio-Ken (1.200.000) AFTER he transforms to his third form (around 2.500.000). What Goku didn't count on was the fact that after being near-death once again, he would receive another Zenkai, this time from 60.000 to 250.000, which would make a x10 or a desperate x20 Kaio-Ken even more fearsome, but still simply no match for last form Freeza at 50% or 70% of his full power.
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Birusu16 wrote:
I wonder what Beerus used on Vegeta. :think: He basically paralyzed his whole body.
He used some sort of near-absolute paralyzing technique, which we can only assume would only work on someone who wasn't ready and/or able, at the time, to defend themselves against such a technique, which was obviously the case of Vegeta (and probably anyone, except Whis, even if they were in fact ready and willing to defend from it).
mAcChaos wrote:
The Doc wrote:
-I've watched the episode twice, and I'm still confused by the bit of Vegeta deeming Piccolo as a trouble maker. Majin Buu I completely understood, but I'm so lost on how Vegeta just grouped him and Piccolo together as guys who might start trouble. I've always deemed Piccolo as one of the smartest characters on the show.
Piccolo has never been one to suffer foolishness quietly. I can just see him scolding Beerus for doing some silly thing without realizing who he's talking to.
It also stroke me as a little strange that he would identify Piccolo as one of the two guys who were most likely to cause trouble when approaching Beerus. I guess the only was to look at it is that Vegeta sees Piccolo as a rather powerful and proud warrior who could scold Beerus at some point for some of the latter's action(s).
iop890 wrote:
Neshawn wrote:
What do you all think the likelihood of vegeta going ssj3 in episode 7?
I'd give you 6:1 odds. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it happened, but I'm not expecting it.
My rough estimate of it happening is about 15%, no more than that, and that's saying a lot.
I've overexpressed my personal position on why I'd partially like to see it - it has to do with the theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages enhance a Saiya-jin power when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations -, and (I hope) most of you have already read it in-depth and in detail, so I'm not going to repeat the whole thing. It really, really has nothing to do with aesthetics or with some years-long fan wish to have it finally occur, as the physical characteristics of the Super Saiya-jin 3 stage have never particularly appealed to me a lot, and I do think it would look awful on Vegeta, whatever the clothes are that he happens to be wearing when he would reach it.
Going back to the chances of it happening, I honestly think it won't. The episode's title does refer to a "mutation"; it if referred to a "transformation", the probability could somewhat increase, but it will most likely just be a power-up triggered by an explosion of anger which basically comes down to a freakish, one-time occurrence allowing Vegeta to very temporarily surpass the natural power limits "imposed" by his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage without actually undergoing any physical transformation.
That will most likely be it, and I've been proven right on numerous occasions when predicting what will or will not happen in following episodes of DBSuper.
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Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I've overexpressed my personal position on why I'd partially like to see it - it has to do with the theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages enhance a Saiya-jin power when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations -, and (I hope) most of you have already read it in-depth and in detail, so I'm not going to repeat the whole thing.
I'm not criticising you for having in-depth thoughts or anything, far from it, but I just find the phrasing of that hilarious. Like, "Did you all do the recommended reading? That was your set homework, remember!"
:lol: That's not the intention behind it at all. I just like to know that all I write has been read in detail, from beginning to end, by the highest number of members as possible, and there's simply no way of knowing that unless I go around asking, which would be quite ridiculous.
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Zombie, it's not the first time you make it pretty obvious you don't like me or my posts too much, but what exactly did you find hard to understand about the one you quoted?
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Doctor. wrote:
It's made pretty clear in the story that base Goku, without the Kaioken, is superior to both Piccolo and Vegeta. Vegeta didn't manage to keep up with ONE of Freeza's attacks, and yet Goku can keep up, dodge, and deflect multiple of Freeza's, even the tyrant is surprised at his speed. It wouldn't make sense for him to be lower than one million, which is the absolute minimum level he has to be at. Denying this is just denying facts.
Hmm, sheer power level is not the only thing that counts in a fight, a warrior's martial arts skills also comes to bear. A warrior can have an inferior power level than another and still manage to do better in some parts of a fight with the same enemy, depending on his way of fighting, his personality, his martial arts skills, his emotional state, etc. If Goku was anywhere near 1.000.000, when he went for a desperate x20 Kaio-Ken, it would skyrocket his power to 10.000.000, which was far above what Freeza was at at the moment he blocked it. He can't be that high in his base form when he comes out of the healing chamber, and since he can't be that high he's automatically below both Vegeta and Piccolo (who are, in their strongest against Freeza, close to 1.000.000).
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Doctor. wrote:
Hmm, sheer power level is not the only thing that counts in a fight, a warrior's martial arts skills also comes to bear. A warrior can have an inferior power level than another and still manage to do better in some parts of a fight with the same enemy, depending on his way of fighting, his personality, his martial arts skills, his emotional state, etc. If Goku was anywhere near 1.000.000, when he went for a desperate x20 Kaio-Ken, it would skyrocket his power to 10.000.000, which was far above what Freeza was at at the moment he blocked it. He can't be that high in his base form when he comes out of the healing chamber, and since he can't be that high he's automatically below both Vegeta and Piccolo (who are, in their strongest against Freeza, close to 1.000.000).
It would be "far above" what Freeza was because...? The Daizenshuu puts Goku at 3 million, which logically would make Goku's Kaiokenx20 60 million, and it also puts full power Freeza at 120 million, and that would give 60 million to 50% Freeza, which was the percentage he was using the moment he blocked the Kamehameha. Seems like equal values to me. You're denying stuff the story makes pretty clear. Goku was faster than Vegeta in his normal state. This normally, and most of the times, translates to having a higher battle power. Goku and Vegeta's skill are almost equivalent, so it wouldn't make such a difference if Goku was over 3x weaker.
Ok, I see where the problem is. You're viewing and basing yourself on the Daizenshuu guides as if they were the Dragonball bible. It really depends on the source you get your information from. I'm not devaluing it, far from it, I'm just saying that not everything there needs to be taken literally or as fact.
The Daizenshuu guides basically place Freeza's power level in his first form at 530.000, his second form at nearly 1.000.000, his third form at 2.500.000 and then, in his fourth form, it basically skyrockets to insane amounts, tens of times the previous stage(s), and that's exactly where I beg to differ. I've seen other sources putting Freeza's power level in his fourth form, using a third of his power, then 50%, then 70%, and then ultimately 100%, at much lower numbers, and based on that, which I think makes much more sense, my logic is still sound. If you place Freeza's power level in his fourth form at 12.000.000 (and there's more than one source doing it), it means he's at 6.000.000 when using 50% of his power, which happens to be just a little above Goku's desperate Kaio-Ken x20 if you base yourself on the numbers I've specified (base Goku being at around 250.000, Kaio-Ken x10 being 2.500.000 and x20 being 5.000.000), it makes sense.
If you go by Freeza being 120.000.000 at his full power, then yeah, of course Goku needs to have a huge power level in his base form after he comes out of the healing chamber. HOWEVER, don't you find it a little strange that just because of a Zenkai his base power level jumps/skyrockets from 60.000 against Ginyu to 3.000.000 (!)? Zenkais do provide great power ups to Vegeta and Goku here and there, but going from 60.000 to 3 MILLION is pushing it a little, no?
If you follow the Daizenshuu guides as the absolute, untouchable factual truth, then your numbers apply and Goku's base power level must be in the order of 3.000.000 - which, for the reasons I've just stated in the previous paragraph, I find a little far-fetched -, but if you follow other sources' numbers, then the numbers I specified both in this and, more in-depth, in the previous post apply.
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Doctor. wrote:
Herms wrote:
Right, so for episode 6 I've added in the opening Goku/Kaio conversation, the Russian Takoyaki explanation, and Whis' reference to Planet Banna. For episode 2 I've also noted how one fansub group turned Whi's mention of Universe 7 into a Game of Thrones reference.
One fansub group turned the line into "This meat is the seventh most famous in the universe", or something of the sort.
That's how some, or indeed most, fansubs work: they basically pick up on some Japanese words they understand and then make up whatever meaning they want without paying detailed attention neither to the phrasing or grammar nor to the actual sense the translation will make taking into account the story and the character speaking. It happens constantly. In that particular case, just as an example, they picked up the "7th Universe" bit and the "famous/best" bit and turned it something which has a completely different meaning than the actual, proper translation. It's like what happened a few weeks ago, in the second episode, where they made out the number "150" and mistranslated the thing as "power level of 150.000" instead of the proper translation - the one that makes sense - of 150G. I can't avoid noting that such mistranslations reveal some degree of lack of in-depth knowledge of what's actually going on in the story at the moment and in the past, and of Dragonball in general.
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No point in continuing this debate anymore, we could go back and forth on it, I could present my theory, you could present yours countless times and still no one would agree with each other.
I could continue arguing that the reason why Goku, in his base form, manages to avoid Freeza's attacks is because of the fact that sheer power alone isn't the only thing that counts in a fight, and Goku is extremely confident, careful, martial arts-skilled and balanced in the fight prior to try Kaio-Ken x10 or Kaio-Ken x20, while Vegeta was totally outclassed despite having a slightly stronger power level in his base form because he was factually emotionally unbalanced, and in fact panicking over the entire fight and circumstances, to the point of being almost delusional about the whole Super Saiya-jin issue.
I could continue arguing that jumping from 60.000, or 90.000, to 3 MILLION is just too high a Zenkai (Vegeta's Zenkai from 35.000 to something that could rival with Freeza's first form doesn't compare to it, you're basically saying Goku, after coming out of the healing chamber, was about ten times stronger than that, and almost thirty times stronger than Ginyu (!), and that Freeza, in his very strongest, using his full power in his fourth form, is a THOUSAND times stronger than Ginyu and almost a thousand times stronger than in his first form, and I could carry on saying I just don't believe that).
You, on the other hand, could point out the potential "flaws" in my logic/theory just as you did, and we're obviously not going to back down, so it's just better to stop here.
Unless Toriyama comes along and presents us with the numbers, which obviously will never happen, different theories exist and none of them will ever be proven 100% accurate or right. Let each one keep basing their thoughts on what they want and defend their theories, unless they contradict facts and are just too ridiculous to postulate, which isn't the case neither in mine nor in yours.
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Doctor. wrote:
I'm not trying to sound rude here, but the reason I'm continuing this conversation is because your theory does contradict facts. It contradicts Goku being stronger than Piccolo and Vegeta, so I can only interpret it as you being in denial, you say it yourself "I don't believe it", "I can't believe it". Is it a ridiculous jump? Yes, yes it is. But it is what the story presents us with.
Well, if you go with my theory, from a certain point of view, yes, Goku still IS stronger than Vegeta and Piccolo, but with a catch: only by resorting to Kaio-Ken (just like he was weaker than Vegeta in his base form when they first fought on Earth and was able to keep up with/surpass him only with the usage of Kaio-Ken x3 and then, ultimately, x4). Doesn't make him weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo at his strongest, Kaio-Ken is just as much a fair technique/power-up as any other. If that's what you're thinking, I've got nothing against Goku, just because Vegeta and Piccolo happen to be my favorite all-time characters; I don't let emotions cloud my judgment that way, don't worry. I'm just obviously setting my theory on an entirely different basis than you are, hence the completely different results.
dbgtFO wrote:
Come on, the least you could do is providing the sources for those numbers.
As it stands they were mistranslated from the Daizenshuu and DBZ Sagas is the only official product to have used them as far as I know.
Furthermore the "Goku was using Kaio-ken x10 the whole time" theory simply has no basis. It only came about, because of the aforementioned mistranslated numbers and the Funi dub wording it not so clearly.
If Goku was so much weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo and needed Kaio-ken x10 to surpass them, this would have been pointed out by everyone relevant. Instead everyone agrees, that Goku's newfound power is enough to take on Freeza and this is before anyone mentions Kaio-ken.
Both Piccolo and Freeza flat out state, that Goku wasn't fighting seriously and that he still was hiding far more power. Goku agrees and that's when they both decide to fight seriously, Freeza claiming he'll use 50% of his power.
Once the real battle commences, Piccolo states, that there was too big a gap between the power they were hiding and Kaio clarifies to Tenshinhan, that Goku is already using Kk x10. If Goku had been using KK x10 from the very beginning, then he wouldn't have more power to hide and Piccolo's statement would have reflected this like "Wait.. Goku didn't hide more power, he was bluffing the whole time!". Instead Piccolo confirms that Goku did hide more power and that power was Kaio-ken x10.
I never even said anything about Goku using Kaio-Ken through the entire fight, it was never my point, I never, ever defended that neither here nor anywhere else. Don't know where you got that from. I simply stated that, in my view, and based not only on the mentioned sources (which I can't provide you, because I no longer have access to them and I can't find them anymore, but they could have been official or not) but also on mere reasoning, I just find it hard that Goku's base power level would skyrocket from 60.000/90.000 to 3 MILLION in one Zenkai, that there's more to winning/being able to keep up with a fight than sheer power level and that one can potentially do better than others against the same exact enemy depending on the circumstances in which he fights/they fight, and that in my opinion Goku comes out of the healing chamber with a power level below that of Vegeta and Piccolo in his base form (as in, without resorting to Kaio-Ken, which doesn't in any way diminish him as a warrior, since the technique is just as honest as any other and was in fact the only reason why he also managed to keep with/surpass Vegeta on Earth); since after immense training on his way to Namek his body is already able to put up with a 10x and even a 20x desperate Kaio-Ken, I was simply doing the math and placing Goku's power level when using Kaio-Ken x10 and then his desperate 20x Kaio-Ken in comparison with Freeza's power level in each of his forms and especially when he fights Goku at 50% of his power, then 70% and then, ultimately, 100%. Moreover, I ALSO find it hard to believe that Freeza in his first form has a power level of 530.000, 1.000.000 in his second form, about 2.500.000 in his third form and then it simply skyrockets insanely to reach up to 120.000.000 in his fourth form at 100% (meaning 60.000.000 during most of his fight with non-Super Saiya-jin Goku).
You're entitled to your position, I'm entitled to mine, we've defended our points of view, however - and don't take it personally - if you're thinking I'm going to say "you're right" just to end the discussion, you're mistaken because I simply won't do it, and I'm not going to keep blabbering about a point which I've already made in the previous posts.
Doctor. and dbgtFO, I respect you as members and I value your opinions as knowledgeable Dragonball fans, but there simply is nothing else to be gained from this particular debate. We have presented two different theories with enough sense to each of them to make them credible, but in the end NONE of them will be proven right or wrong. As a result of that, let's just leave it at that and move on.
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Noah wrote:
This made me think... Vegeta gets a huge rage boost by Beerus hurting Bulma, so how about if Beerus did the same thing with Videl? Would Ultimate Gohan get a huge rage boost as well?
Well, he did fly a little bit off the handle when Spopovitch "rapes" Videl, so his feelings towards her are definitely enough for him to lose it just like he did numerous times in his tantrums as a child and teenager, which always provided him with what you could call a "huge rage boost". The best example of that was the Cell Juniors' torturing of his friends in front of him, which was in part responsible for his actual, physical transformation into Super Saiya-jin 2.
Vegeta's boost in power in the following episode is a different occurrence, though. The weird thing - hence the word "mutation, I guess - is that Vegeta will (most likely) get a temporary boost in power due to an explosion of anger while not undergoing an actual further transformation into another stage (the whole Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta thing will most likely NOT happen, it would perhaps be a nice idea to refrain from asking the same "is Vegeta going SSJ3 against Beerus?" question over and over again).
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NeoKING wrote:
How did this SSJ3 Vegeta thing even start.
Well, for starters, it's been one of those things some fans have always wanted to see over the years, because it would look "cool" (so they think), and then, after the title for episode 7 came out, it got fueled even further, and THEN, with the scene in last weekend's preview for next episode, Vegeta is shown with blut sparks of electricity from a back angle, which led some people who had already been suggesting it for a while to speculate that the camera angle was perfect for his hair to grow in length during a Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation.
It seems that no matter what you do, there's always gonna be somebody else who'll keep asking the same "is Vegeta going to transform into Super Saiya-jin 3?" question, or asking how likely it is, or talking about it, despite the fact that it ALMOST CERTAINLY will NOT happen.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
soulnova wrote:
I stiI will never understand the obsession with SSj3.
It's beautiful.
Only on Goku does SSJ3 look cool. It looks ugly as shit on any other character. Especially Vegeta.
Agreed. I've said the same exact thing on a number of occasions. The physical characteristics of the Super Saiya-jin 3 stage have never appealed to me too much, and I do think it would look awful on Vegeta, regardless of the clothes he WOULD HAPPEN to be wearing at the time (I deliberately used the conditional because it just WILL NOT happen, they refer to it as a "mutation" in the episode title, it'll be a freakish and temporary power-up due to an explosion of anger which allows him to go beyond the natural limits of the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage without actually undergoing any physical transformation).
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Was it really that difficult to get to the conclusion that Champa was most likely going to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? You've got two elements: a cat dressed almost exactly like Beerus, and has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis, and then, you've got an entire arc dedicated to another Universe; going back to BoG, Beerus does say at the end of the movie that there are 12 Universes in total, each one of them having its own version of a Hakaishin. How difficult could it be to postulate the scenario of Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? Besides, if there's indeed some tension between Beerus and Champa, we could speculate that it has to do with the fact that the different Hakaishins for different Universes compete with each other, or that there's just some sort of rivalry between these two Universes (6th and 7th), and their respective Hakaishins.
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Doctor. wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Was it really that difficult to get to the conclusion that Champa was most likely going to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? You've got two elements: a cat dressed almost exactly like Beerus, and has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis, and then, you've got an entire arc dedicated to another Universe; going back to BoG, Beerus does say at the end of the movie that there are 12 Universes in total, each one of them having its own version of a Hakaishin. How difficult could it be to postulate the scenario of Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? Besides, if there's indeed some tension between Beerus and Champa, we could speculate that it has to do with the fact that the different Hakaishins for different Universes compete with each other, or that there's just some sort of rivalry between these two Universes (6th and 7th), and their respective Hakaishins.
No, it wasn't, it was the most likely option. But that doesn't mean it was the only option like some people were saying. Him being a God of Destruction of the same universe, being part of Beerus' family/race or being from another universe but not being its God were also likely.
Sure, and I've said it wasn't the only possible option myself several times too. I said multiple times that in my view the second most likely probability would be that he had been the competitor for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a race which he ended up losing to Beerus, which would help explain the bitterness/rivalry between them, and his possible desire for revenge (along the same lines of Garlic Jr. wanting revenge on Kami for the latter having won the race for the position of Guardian of Earth against his father).
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precita wrote:
If I were to say realistically, I would think Gogeta is the only movie/GT character that has a chance of becoming canon. Obviously not the SSJ4 incarnation though.
I wouldn't say he actually has a chance of becoming canon by being (re)introduced in DBSuper, but - in fact in accordance with the whole topic of the thread, along the lines of wishful thinking more than actual probability of it becoming true - he's also the one character I'd like to see the most making a (re)appearance, also because it would bring the concept of fusion back to the franchise. Putting GT to the sidelines as a non-canon story, we only saw Gogeta for about 2 minutes in Movie 12, which is itself non-canon too (like all other movies, except perhaps Movie 9). His counterpart Vegitto does have quite a lot of screen time in comparison against Super Buu. Although Vegitto is stronger, given the fact that the Potara method of fusion brings better end results, Gogeta has enormous potential, but I don't see them bringing back fused characters, or any sort of fusion technique, for that matter, in DBSuper (I'm glad it was mentioned by Goku after getting KO'd by Beerus both in BoG and in DBSuper's version of the same fight aftermath), especially not with the dance method.
It's really a waste, though. At least Vegitto IS canon, but Gogeta, along with a few concepts from GT, was poorly handled to the point of frustration, and it goes along the same exact lines as the entire potential GT had that went wasted by having the story being developed so hastily.
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irreality wrote:
soulnova wrote:
The Ssj rage boost was much more impressive because it made him surpass Goku's Ssj3 without the need to get the form.
Agreed.
… And SSJ3 looks ugly on everyone, even Goku.
Some fans would disagree. I think it doesn't look ugly on Goku, just a little over-the-top, as in, too noticeable, and it gets old after only a few episodes during the Majin Buu saga. However, when it was first presented when Goku showed it to Majin Buu and Babidi ALL of us went insane, and Goku's menacing look upon completing the transformation, with the lightning and the different sound to the flowing aura and everything, along with the original background music when he finally looks forward to Majin Buu, makes for a pretty fantastic moment from DBZ. But yeah, it does get old and outdated soon, so it's just natural we're finding it awful in 2015. The same can't be said about the other Super Saiya-jin stages, as far as I know, and it applies to me personally, they'll never get old, even taking into account the minor changes there are between them (especially Super Saiya-jin and Super Saiya-jin 2: spikier hair, blue electricity, aura flowing at a higher speed, and that's pretty much it).
The lack of eyebrows does make it a little badass and - as pointed out by Gotenks himself - a little bit more like a bad guy, but that ALSO gets old soon. It does look awful on Gotenks (although the entirety of Gotenks has never appealed to me either, in fact, I've always found him a little bit annoying), and it WOULD look awful on Vegeta, no matter what outfit he would happen to be wearing at the time. Super Saiya-jin 3 will soon become obsolete, and so will all the other previous Super Saiya-jin stages, at least for Goku and Vegeta, after they reach Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (in fact, it would be obsolete for Ultimate Gohan too, since his power in his Ultimate stage is the same, or at least rivals with that of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku).
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soulnova wrote:
I don't like how Goku looks, specially the eyebrows. The first time I saw Ssj3 Goku I really cringed and thought "what the fuck is that". For all the shit I give to GT, I do like how the Ssj4 handled the head/hair combo... but the fur also made me cringe.
Actually, the physical characteristics of Super Saiya-jin 4 is probably one of the only concepts - if not the only one - I like from the entirety of GT, although it does produce a number of inconsistencies and enormous headaches when trying to explain how it's obtained when compared to the methods to achieve each of the other Super Saiya-jin stages (not to mention the whole thing about Goku and Vegeta being able to apparently generate new clothes out of nowhere, etc.). But from a purely aesthetic point of view, Super Saiya-jin 4 is fantastic, the hair isn't too long, there's definitely a perfect combination between "man (or in this case Saiya-jin) and ape", the chest is powerful, the tail looks fantastic. I'd in fact love it if they hadn't gone through with GT and saved the design for a series/movie/special in the future, turning the stage and its respective method of attainment into perhaps the real physical look for Super Saiya-jin God, for example. It doesn't look over-the-top, doesn't look excessively flashy, it looks extremely powerful and is extremely well conceived (again, purely from a aesthetic point of view, because in other aspects it's actually a pain in the a**). And I don't mind the fur at all, there's really nothing (apart from the clothes) that I can definitely say "I don't like" about the Super Saiya-jin 4 design. And that's pretty much everything good I have to say about GT, with two or three other exceptions.
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Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Sure, and I've said it wasn't the only possible option myself several times too.
So...the exact thing you were railing on other people for doing...?
For one, I wasn't railing on anyone, and then, I merely postulated two different likely scenarios before in multiple occasions, expressly pointing out that one of them (Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe) was much more likely than the other one. Whenever I posted on the matter I ALWAYS made it pretty clear that the far most likely scenario was that Champa was just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th. One scenario being 90% likely doesn't mean the other 10% need to be totally discarded, they're just unlikely, but still academically possible. However, SOME scenarios a few fans came up with are just too far-fetched and had absolutely no basis to them other than having been completely made up by the ones who wrote about it.
I honestly have no idea if the way I write or post comes across as arrogant or something, but there definitely seems to be a problem with my way of addressing others, because I'm accused of double-standards and over-criticizing others almost on a daily basis. :think:
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Chuquita wrote:
The no-eyebrows kill ssj3 for me. If he had regular ssj2 eyebrows with ssj3 eyes and hair, that I would like.
Actually, someone pointed out that Super Saiya-jin 3's lack of eyebrows is a direct hint at the Oozaru stage (there are no eyebrows when a Saiya-jin turns Oozaru). There's little to substantiate this theory in, it's just interesting. In fact, when Goku is finalizing the process of turning Super Saiya-jin 3 on screen for the first time against Majin Buu, the image does show an Oozaru who gradually turns into baby-Goku, and in the middle of the "regression" there's a particular stage where Goku looks like the design of a Super Saiya-jin 4).
Some fans love the lack of eyebrows and see it as the best physical characteristic of the stage, others point it out exactly as being what ruins the stage for them.
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Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
For one, I wasn't railing on anyone, and then, I merely postulated two different likely scenarios before in multiple occasions, expressly pointing out that one of them (Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe) was much more likely than the other one. Whenever I posted on the matter I ALWAYS made it pretty clear that the far most likely scenario was that Champa was just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th. One scenario being 90% likely doesn't mean the other 10% need to be totally discarded, they're just unlikely, but still academically possible. However, SOME scenarios a few fans came up with are just too far-fetched and had absolutely no basis to them other than having been completely made up by the ones who wrote about it.
I honestly have no idea if the way I write or post comes across as arrogant or something, but there definitely seems to be a problem with my way of addressing others, because I'm accused of double-standards and over-criticizing others almost on a daily basis. :think:
Sorry; it's just you made one post saying "Was it really that difficult to get to the conclusion that Champa was most likely going to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe?" and "How difficult could it be to postulate the scenario of Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe?" So I got the implication that you were saying that that had to be what it was, and that anyone thinking otherwise was being stupid and not making the obvious connection. Then you went on to say "I've said it wasn't the only possible option myself several times too."
Which seemed a bit contradictory to me, was all. Certainly not accusing you of arrogance or anything; if I had to characterise your posts it'd be "thorough".
No problem, man. That's one thing about being obsessive about putting your ideas forth in the most in-depth, well-written, detailed possible way, it can sometimes generate thoughts that look contradictory, besides the sheer fact that two thirds of the posts end up being "huge", at least for most people's standards. I can't and won't change the way I write, though, nor the detail to which I go when expressing my thoughts on a particular subject. I think it's better to make extremely long and detailed posts which address all ramifications of a subject than simply putting forth one-line or one-sentence posts, or simply asking questions (most of which having been addressed before).
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sintzu wrote:
GoldLiger wrote:
Wasn't Vegeta training most of the time after Kid Buu's defeat?
Yes but that doesn't mean he was training for Ssj3 cause we know from the Cell arc he won't use a form that'll slow him down regardless of how bad things look for him.
Of course that doesn't mean he won't reach it in the series but if he doesn't it won't be because he can't.
Vegeta has been deemed throughout the series numerous times a "fighting genius", which can, just for example, be demonstrated by his ability to reach Super Saiya-jin 2 at some point in the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, besides further increasing his power and nullifying the gap there still was between him and Goku by having Babidi possess him and providing him with an additional power boost, after witnessing what the possession process did to Yamu and Spopovitch. Vegeta is extremely intelligent and cautious, it's his pathological pride that ultimately gets in the way and clouds his judgment when he comes across someone who surpasses him after he - again - proclaims to have surpassed Kakarotto and reclaimed his position as the strongest in the Universe. Given how easy it appears to have been for him to keep with Gohan and Goku by achieving Super Saiya-jin 2 and overcoming teen Gohan's Super Saiya-jin 2 power (Piccolo stated that Majin Vegeta, when fighting fat Majin Buu, was even stronger than Gohan was when he thrashed Cell), it could be argued that he has it in himself - both martial arts-wise and in terms of willingness to train - to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 in no time. If Goku could do it, so can Vegeta, and this has been shown on multiple occasions throughout the arcs in DBZ (Vegeta just happens to reach each stage a little after Goku does it, hence the whole "he's always one step ahead of me; whenever I think I caught him or surpassed him, he overcomes me yet again" routine).
Let's be clear about one thing once and for all: no matter what "proof" or theory you come up with to back it up, Vegeta will most likely NOT going to go Super Saiya-jin 3 in episode 7. That doesn't mean he doesn't have it in himself, or that, with a little further training, he couldn't become able to reach the stage in no time. I know it's a subject which has been debated over the years and some fans are pretty keen on seeing it actually happen on-screen, and the stuff that's been happening in DBSuper somewhat increased the chances and hope of it actually occurring, but it just won't. In terms of my theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages go, and their respective methods of achievement, along with their respective power boosts when compared to the Saiya-jin's previous maximum power, part of me would like it to happen, or at least have it made pretty clear that he was at least ABLE to become Super Saiya-jin 3, but from a pure aesthetics point of view I think it would look awful on Vegeta (it has already gotten old on Goku and I personally think it looks almost ridiculous on Gotenks). Besides, if he did reach it, the stage itself would/will be rendered obsolete almost immediately again, after both he and Goku achieve Super Saiya-jin God, then absorb the abilities and power of the SSJG stage, and then go one step further and actually achieve Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
Again, the far most likely scenario for episode 7 and Vegeta's lashing out at Beerus over Bulma will amount to a temporary, freakish boost in power due to an explosion of anger which will enable him to go beyond the natural limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, and since this shouldn't happen, hence the term "mutation" in the episode title.
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Thinking about the way and set of abilities a particular Saiya-jin needs to possess to achieve each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and contrary to what happens in all the other forms, Super Saiya-jin 3 is a form which most likely can only be reached after - obviously - being powerful enough to reach Super Saiya-jin 2, after IMMENSE training, and all of this coupled with what could only be called a natural tendency for fighting, as in, being a "fighting genius" or a "prodigy" (which both Goku and Vegeta have been deemed on numerous occasions throughout DBZ by each other and by their adversaries). It's most certainly NOT a transformation or stage that can be reached by an explosion of anger, at least as far as we know (we've only been presented with two characters going SSJ3, which isn't really a great sample to judge or base our position on, anyway), unlike most others: the "regular" Super Saiya-jin form is triggered by an explosion of anger (Goku over Freeza violently murdering Krillin, Vegeta over his frustration at being unable to surpass Kakarotto, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Bardock over his inability to match the power of Freeza/Chilled, Gohan over his frustration due to being a spoiled brat), the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai stages can only be achieved through intense training, the Super Saiya-jin Full Power form is achieved by a complete mastery of all aspects of the regular Super Saiya-jin stage, and - here's the catch - Super Saiya-jin 2, the one and only which can TRULY be deemed "the SSJ stage beyond the first SSG stage", which is what Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all pursue during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs) can be reached after fully dominating the SSJ Full Power stage, and then either by an explosion of anger (teen Gohan at the Cell Games) OR through, arguably, intense training + being extremely gifted (Goku and Vegeta in the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, and both of them possess the two traits specified).
On this note, since BoG came out, I've always viewed the Super Saiya-jin God (and its "successor", Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin) as a rather separate event, contrary to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations, which basically build upon the previous one on an escalating basis; it's achieved through a different method and I regard it as more of a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up (although to insanely higher proportions) than anything else. As for the stage in which both Goku and Vegeta are in their base form and are still able to keep up with Beerus or Whis, the process has been basically shown as soon as during the fight between Goku and Beerus in BoG and then in Fukkatsu no F, where both Goku and Vegeta manage to incorporate the abilities and power of the SSJG stage, with all of its benefits, without actually undergoing the physical transformation (retaining their base form), which is a stage officially referred to as "Saiya-jin beyond God". As far as the SSJGSSJ stage goes, until further notice I view it as a complete mastery of the Super Saiya-jin God stage, fluxing the particular transformation with the natural fighting abilities and tension typical of any SSJ stage, along with a slight increase in power (basically undergoing the same exact process as when transforming into Super Saiya-jin, which would mean it could be summarized as a Super Saiya-jin God who then turns Super Saiya-jin (hence the exact same sequence in the official name).
I've come to understand that it will take watching the actual seventh episode to make people refrain from postulating the Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta scenario. Arguing against it, or against the odds of it happening, will simply no good, we've got proof of that; some of us have reasoned quite carefully that it most likely will NOT happen and still some fans will keep ask the same question, discuss the same matter and hope it will come true. I'm not saying it's impossible, I actually put the probability of it happening at around 15%, as a rough estimate, and that's saying a lot.
Again, my position is that it's not that Vegeta shouldn't have it in himself to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 in no time if he put enough time to training to catch Kakarotto once again; if Goku can do it, so can Vegeta, which has been shown in multiple instances throughout DBZ (Vegeta just happens to reach each stage a little after Goku does, hence the whole "he's always one step ahead of me, when I think I've caught or surpassed me he surprises me and overcomes me once again" routine). As such, even it did occur - and, again, it most likely WILL NOT -, or if Vegeta was theoretically already ABLE to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 at this point or very soon, it would be the same entire story all over again, since the stage will be/has been rendered obsolete after Goku achieve Super Saiya-jin God against Beerus, once again turning Vegeta's supposed catching or surpassing of Kakarotto an extremely temporary occurrence, following the trend throughout DBZ.
However, soon after Goku reaches SSJG, so will Vegeta. If my particular theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages increase the power of a Saiya-jin is correct - basically it multiplies the power the Saiya-jin has at his very STRONGEST, instead of his base form - then the only way it would make sense for Vegeta to be on par with Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin in Fukkatsu no F is that Vegeta is as strong as Goku is when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God (hence, Super Saiya-jin 3, and not Super Saiya-jin 2). This is why part of me would like to have it happen; the other part of me doesn't want to for the reasons I've been listing in recent posts on the matter: it looks over-the-top, has gotten old on Goku already in the Majin Buu arc, looks almost ridiculous on Gotenks and would look absolutely awful especially on Vegeta, no matter the clothes he happens to be wearing at the time.
The fact that they are throwing a few changes our way in DBSuper in their retelling of the events of BoG makes the Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta fans who are really keep on having it actually occur on-screen enhanced their hopes a little bit, and the sheer fact that Vegeta is shown from a back angle in the preview for episode 7 led some to theorize that the shot was just perfect for a hair growth in Vegeta during a Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation, but all of these are pretty weak and far-fetched scenarios.
Again, what will happen to Vegeta in episode 7 is most likely - almost certainly, in fact - going to be the same exact seen that happened in BoG: he'll achieve quite a large power boost due to an explosion of anger which will allow him to achieve a very temporary but freakish point in which he's able to overcome the natural power limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, without actually going through any physical transformation - hence the term "mutation" in the episode title, instead of "transformation". It's a separate, freakish and very temporary occurrence, and even the term chosen for the episode title seconds that, in my view.
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DragonHermit wrote:
You guys remember how Freeza was the "emperor" of the universe? Will there be an emperor of all the universes? Which universe will have the strongest fighters? Any thoughts?
I honestly think Champa will start out bad but become good like many others have done in the past
He was the self-proclaimed "emperor" of the Universe, he went around thinking he was far, far above anyone else and was untouchable. It was never a proper title given to him by anyone else other than himself or a few of his followers. In the other Universes, particularly in the 6th Universe, since that's the one we'll be exploring in DBSuper, there might be another warrior/tyrant like Freeza, but who knows? The 7th Universe has Freeza, King Cold, Vegeta, the Saiya-jin, Earth, the Super Saiya-jin, Cell, the Jinzouningen, Majin Buu, Hakaishin Beerus, the Kaioshin, the Kaiou-samas, the Tsufuru-jin, Yakon, Pui Pui, Dabura, the Namek-sei-jin - not counting on non-canon or movie-only characters like Brolly, Tullece, Bojack and his henchmen, Slug, etc.
There could literally be a virtually endless range of possibilities for extremely, insanely powerful warriors (some of them villains) in the 6th Universe, but I'd expect that the deity hierarchy, for example, is kept roughly the same (Hakaishin and his attendant, the equivalent of the Kaioshin, Dai Kaiou-sama and the four Kaiou-samas, below which there's a Kami for each planet, etc.).
It's precisely the fact we know NOTHING about the 6th Universe, which should be just as big as the 7th, which is where EVERY event has taken place in DB and DBZ, that makes the prospect of exploring it so exciting. The exploration of another Universe, along with Beerus' statement by the end of BoG that there are actually as many as 12 different, separate Universes, open up and generate immense room for new insanely powerful characters and villains, most likely in the same exact degree as the 7th Universe, so, yeah, there's probably somebody along the lines of Freeza, Bojack, Dabura, etc., etc., in the 6th Universe as well.
Regarding Champa starting out bad and gradually becoming good, that's actually major character development which was used on Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Vegeta (Tenshinhan goes from bad guy to part of the team after a few advices from Muten Roshi and within one arc, Piccolo started out as the reincarnation of one of the most evil and psychotic villains in the entirety of Dragonball but by the Freeza or Jinzouningen arc his evil has all but disappeared, has become a complete ally to good, protector of Earth, its inhabitants and the one he arguably loves and has his process of transition complete quite quickly, while in the case of Vegeta it took him nearly the entirety of DBZ's arcs to undergo the same exact process - he started out as a ruthless genocidal killer, a smaller version of Freeza, but we can some gradual and incremental change already on Namek, further changes and adaptations in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, even further adaptations to Earth and his family life in the Majin Buu arc - his possession by Babidi and his killing of hundreds of people at the stadium was probably the last instance of really evil stuff done by him ever - and AFTER the arc the very gradual and incremental process of transition is also complete).
However, I still believe that Champa won't be a full-fledged villain, he'll be shown to merely have some sort of bitterness/rivalry towards Beerus, and for some reason could be plotting some sort of assault or revenge on him (either because he's the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th, and they compete with each other, or because he competed for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a race which he ended up losing to Beerus, which would also explain his bitterness towards him, much in the same way Garlic Jr. wants revenge on Kami for the latter having won the race for the position of Guardian of Earth against his father). This sort of deities are so strange entities that they can't really be deemed "evil" nor "good", they're no one's allies, they've been tasked with a "mission" and see to it that it's carried out; their understanding of "right" and "wrong" is probably so far ahead when compared to other, emotional beings that it's completely different (not better or worse, just BEYOND), or even non-existent. We'll just have to wait for further detailed info on Champa or for the actual episodes in which he finally shows up to run to see who and what exactly he is and what his intentions could be towards Beerus and the Universe and its warriors in general. At this point he's just far too much of a mystery from certain angles for us to postulate any scenarios beyond the mere fact that there's some sort of connection between him and his respective attendant and Beerus and Whis, with the two most likely theories on that being the ones I specified in start of this paragraph).
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DragonHermit wrote:
I think what Toriyama was going for is that SSJ3 puts tremendous strain on the physical body, so it's a difficult transformation for earthly beings. In the other world, you're basically immortal and you can abuse your body.
Yeah, pretty much that. Super Saiya-jin 3 is so tremendously powerful a transformation that it puts an ENORMOUS strain on a Saiya-jin's body, which was something that couldn't affect Goku while he was dead - whether on the Other World or on Earth during the Majin Buu arc. When he does use it while being alive, he's shown using either for short bursts (if you count the Movies, against Janenba, Hildegarn, Beerus, Super Buu and Kid Buu - in the latter's case, he has a somewhat long fight with him and he DOES feel the eventual repercussions of using the transformation, being unable to keep up with it at a stable rate for a second round). The only other one we see achieving the stage is Gotenks, and one could ARGUE - no official information on this, just fan-made theories, in fact - that he achieves it with relative ease because of the fantastic benefits that come with Fusion, which, in my view, allows the ultimately fused warrior to go beyond the natural power limits "imposed" by, in the Saiya-jins' case, the respective Super Saiya-jin stage they're in (seen when Vegitto far overcomes Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan without going SSJ3), besides allowing the fused warrior to much more easily bypass (or, in other words, skip) the entire absolutely intense training it would take to reach the stage. I highly doubt Super Saiya-jin 3 is something that can be achieved through an explosion of anger, such as in the case of "regular" Super Saiya-jin or, in teen Gohan's case against Cell at the Cell Games, Super Saiya-jin 2. It takes an extremely powerful Saiya-jin who has either already achieved Super Saiya-jin 2 and become completely comfortable with it + intense training + a natural gift for martial arts (a "prodigy", or a "fighting genius", which both Goku and Vegeta have been deemed to be by each other and their respective adversaries on numerous occasions throughout DBZ), OR special circumstances such as in the case of dead Goku or fused Gotenks. Basically, Super Saiya-jin 3 is not for everyone, but if Goku can do it, so can Vegeta. By the time DBSuper takes place, it could easily be argued that not only does Vegeta has it in himself - both martial arts-wise and in terms of willingness to train - to reach Super Saiya-jin 3; while it's true that Goku is "always one step ahead" of Vegeta, even in terms of when they reach each particular Super Saiya-jin stage throughout the arcs in DBZ, it's also true that shortly after Goku reaches one, Vegeta does so too. It's basically playing cat and mouse at a much larger scale: Vegeta keeps chasing Goku, and just when he thinks he's caught him or surpassed him, Goku manages to surprise Vegeta and everyone else by going one step further, which, taking into account Vegeta's pathological pride and his not-so-healthy obsession with "surpassing Kakarotto", makes it easy to understand why Vegeta goes beyond mere frustration, since this happens more than once (in Movie 12, he actually breaks down in tears over his inability to surpass Goku, it's got to be pretty hard on him, no matter how much he trains he's always either just close to Goku or far below him, which will be corrected by the Freeza arc in DBSuper just as it was in Fukkatsu no F - in my view Vegeta is just as strong as Goku is in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage, which leads me to think that he's also just as strong as Goku is BEFORE each one of them reaches Super Saiya-jin God, WHEN they reach Super Saiya-jin God and also when/after they manage to absorb and incorporate the abilities of SSJG while keeping their base form (Saiya-jin beyond God).
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It may also have to do with the fact that Goku is a Saiya-jin (and a particularly gifted one), hence he possesses a natural set of advantages over members/warriors of other races, when it comes to fighting/martial arts. There's the Oozaru, there's the Zenkais, there's the natural tendency and gift for fighting and manipulation of Ki, etc. The Namek-sei-jin, especially the warrior-types, are quite gifted martial artists too, but in general that's not what the race's most defining trait is, but rather the ability to be powerful yet peaceful, the Dragon Balls, the ability to conjure objects out of nowhere, the ability to regenerate, the ability to heal others, etc. Piccolo, due to his sheer history (both before and especially AFTER he became a reluctant part of the team) is a complete separate case, he was raised on Earth, went through an almost endless string of changes (his father split in two, he took on all the characteristics and memories from him, and then he fused with the one his father split from again) and, just like Tenshinhan, Krillin and Yamcha, despite being unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta or Gohan, is at some temporary points the strongest among the team, is keen on martial arts, is extremely proud and has reached an immense level of power during the Freeza and Jinzouningen arcs (training with Kaiou-sama, fusing with Nail, training intensively for 3 more years for the Jinzouningen, fusing with Kami and training intensively in the RoSaT for the Cell Games).
It's just natural that in the later stages of DB (Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. arcs), Goku and Piccolo (and Kami) are far beyond anyone else, due to their then-unknown alien origins. It's quite an encounter and indeed a fantastic coincidence that both of them happened to be sent to the same planet, Earth, although for different purposes, which set the stage for their showdown hundreds of years after the catalyst for Piccolo originally leaving Namek.
Before Vegeta takes on the role of main rival of Goku's, Piccolo used to be the one, but not for long. He keeps up with him at close range during their showdown in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and when Raditz appears, but after Goku trains with Kaiou-sama (and thus achieves an enormous power-up and acquires the Kaio-Ken and Genkidama techniques) he's just far beyond anyone else from the team, including Piccolo, who was kind of focused on developing Gohan's hidden power for the upcoming battle with Vegeta and Nappa. He ends up being killed, but manages to gain an enormous power-up which allows him to be on the level of Vegeta, Goku and some of Freeza's stages after fusing with Nail; after that, he manages yet again to keep up with (and indeed surpass) the "regular" Super Saiya-jin stages of Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks (and consequently Freeza) after fusing with Kami, putting him on par with warriors who beat the shit out of Vegeta, for example (#17, #18). For a number of episodes in the early Cell arc, he's not only on par with #17 and #18, he's close to #16 and Cell, and far beyond the Saiya-jin, who were off in Kami's Lookout to undergo a year-worth of training to surpass the regular Super Saiya-jin form. After that, and only in terms of sheer power, he's rather quickly rendered obsolete as a warrior as well, being absolutely unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta and Gohan by the Majin Buu arc (he doesn't even fight in the entire arc, is stuck teaching the Fusion to the kids and the only land he blows is on a defenseless Babidi, cutting him in half and actually even failing to kill him). He doesn't even appear in Movies 12 and 13, which just goes to show the degree of importance they cease to put on him at that time, which in turn also has to do with the fact he just can't keep with up the massive power of Goku, Vegeta and Gohan as Super Saiya-jin 2 anymore.
It could be argued that Piccolo, despite remaining EXTREMELY powerful, has reached (or actually gone far beyond) his natural limits as a warrior after the several power-ups he went through in the Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, which allowed him to keep with up Super Saiya-jins like Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan, and up cyborgs who had thrashed them. He most likely lacks the ability to go any further than that, but, for a Namek-sei-jin, his level of power is more than impressive, it's absolutely fantastic.
Quick note: it's funny how Vegeta - again - proclaims to have surpassed Kakarotto and become the strongest in the Universe once again, and in a matter of a few episodes is overcome by quite a large list of warriors: Piccolo, #17, #18, #16, Cell, and is only slightly above Goku and Mirai no Trunks. Despite his massive power-ups after the RoSaT intense training, he gets surpassed once again by Cell, Trunks, Goku and even Gohan. However, his ability to keep obsessively training, as a pure Saiya-jin, does drive him to keep surpassing his and other warriors' limits and keep up with the strongest of the fighters in each arc and at each particular time. Unlike Piccolo, he's a major protagonist in the Majin Buu arc, even in terms of power, managed to skip the gap between his previous Cell arc strongest stage and that of teen Gohan and Cell by actually achieving Super Saiya-jin 2 himself, allows himself to be possessed by Babidi to gain yet another increase in power and appears to have stopped there in terms of power boosts until he goes Super Saiya-jin God, Saiya-jin beyond God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, basically allowing him to surpass and skip the enormous and increasing gap between him, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, all the versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Gotenks and Vegitto, effectively and finally putting him on par with Goku and in the leagues of Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza.
Regarding the training you were referring to and discussing, I think that going through a lesser amount of training doesn't necessarily produce hindrances to a warrior's progress in power. It's actually about both the intensiveness of the training and how gifted they are. Besides, Goku was never really restrained from training seriously and constantly despite Chi Chi's constant nagging.
You were talking about the 5 year gap between the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and the arrival of Raditz (beginning of DBZ); Piccolo is still slightly below Goku in terms of power, but when they tap into their strongest recesses of power and increase their Ki (as measured by Raditz's scouter), when performing their trademark techniques, Piccolo does manage to overcome Goku with his Makankosappo, which was originally intended to kill Goku and most likely took quite a lot of time, thought and effort to develop. It's funny that it actually ended up succeeding in its original purpose, since it DOES kill Goku along with his brother.
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Aaaaaaaaaaand, back to the regular routine. In about two hours we'll finally be able to put a decisive end to all the "is Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 in episode 7?" questions once and for all. The subject has been over-discussed, in my view.
I've never said this before since last week(end)'s episode, but the episode preview does show some pretty weaker fighting choreography from Piccolo + Tenshinhan + #18 vs Beerus, but I suppose that's just to be expected when comparing a full-fledged weekly series to a theatrical feature such as BoG. In all cases, on one hand we get more time to expand on events and on character development, but on the other hand we get weaker animation.
I have to say that I had orgasms with the first 2/3 episodes of DBSuper, but the one I watched and rewatched the most times was episode 6. I rewatched episode 5 several times after all the blown out of proportion fuss over the animation was over, as rational folks expected, and actually watching the episode from beginning to end the episode was pretty decent, even animation-wise (it was everyone going in-depth, frame by frame on each second of the fight that made it look THAT awful); there are pretty decent shots here and there and the episode overall, even from a fighting choreography point of view, was absolutely acceptable. You need to look at things and analyze them from an emotionally distant perspective, and that's what I did and was absolutely pleased to welcome episode 5 into the list of what's acceptable so far in DBSuper in ALL aspects, which is basically everything.
Going back to episode 7, it does look judging by last week's episode preview that Vegeta's instance of losing it over Bulma getting slapped by Beerus will be not only the obvious most anticipated moment in the episode, it will also get excellent animation, the few seconds we got to see of the "mutation" (remember, not "transformation", which all that entails) looks pretty badass. They got Super Saiya-jin 2 (not 3, goddamn it) and the respective physical characteristics pretty well, even after nearly two decades (spikier hair, blue lightning/electricity sparks, aura flowing at a higher speed, etc.).
Goddamn it, I can't wait for this. After almost two months I STILL can't believe we get to see an entirely new episode exactly at the same time it airs in Japan. The experience just doesn't get old. The entire atmosphere surrounding is important for me personally too. I find myself watching the same TV programs and commercials from Fuji TV every single Saturday/Sunday roughly two hours before it's 9am in Japan (1am in my country). It's getting to become quite a fantastic routine in my life.
Edit: Let this be the final time I say this: Vegeta will most likely NOT going to go Super Saiya-jin 3, no matter what theory you come up with present. I know quite a large chunk of fans have been fantasizing over it for years and are really keen on seeing it happen on-screen, and I'm not saying it's just impossible - the fact that they're throwing some small/minor changes and additions here and there in DBSuper when compared to BoG definitely increases the chances of it happening by just a little bit in terms of percentage -, but not only would it look AWFUL on Vegeta (it already looks old, over-the-top and outdated on Goku, and almost ridiculous on Gotenks), they happen to KNOW it would look awful on him, it will also be rendered obsolete in a matter of episodes, besides the most important fact, which is the sheer episode title, which refers specifically to a "mutation" rather than a "transformation"; it will most likely come down to a very temporary freakish power up triggered by an explosion of anger which will allow Vegeta to get to a level/degree of power beyond the natural limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage - the unnatural and parallel event it constitutes has "mutation" as a perfect noun to refer to it. I'm not criticizing anyone for wanting it to happen, it's also a matter of aesthetics, and hence an issue that depends on one's own personal opinion, but you should keep your hopes pretty low, otherwise you'll end up disappointed, which is far from a nice or pleasant feeling.
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Beerus-sama KO'ing everyone just as easily and ALMOST as quickly as in BoG? Just wait 52 minutes. PUDDING ! :evil:
Edit: In the episode preview from last week(end) we did indeed see Gotenks have a(n expectable) go at Beerus, just like in BoG, but he attacks him without being in any Super Saiya-jin stage, and I assume he'll be KO'd seconds after he firstly charges at Beerus, so he'll most likely not even transform at any point against him. I guess he (along with the two who "compose" him, Trunks and Goten) is even more clueless about the actual level Beerus is at than he was in BoG.
I hope Ultimate Gohan has a change to land a few more blows instead of being KO'd after a single punch to the stomach. Beerus does "give" Majin Buu a few more seconds of torture in DBSuper than BoG - in fact he pretty much THRASHES him for nearly a minute, to the point of almost finishing him off, I'd say -, so, even taking into account the sheer fact that this is a series, thus giving each character more time against Beerus while having a go at him, I'd expect the fight against Vegeta, Majin Buu, Gohan, Gotenks, Tenshinhan, Piccolo and #18 to last for about half of the episode, while the second one will most likely be devoted and dedicated to Bulma's reaction to the events, Beerus slapping her and Vegeta losing it, undergoing the aforementioned "mutation" and finally lashing out at him, in some sort of second round, which either will last for about half an episode or will be cut (as in, episode ending) exactly as Vegeta finishes his "mutation"/power-up and flies off towards Beerus (much along the same lines many episodes throughout all the arcs of DBZ ended - Ginyu lashing out at Goku at the end of episode 68, Gohan lashing out at Freeza at the end of episode 82, Goku ready to (re)start the fight against Freeza after turning Super Saiya-jin at the end of episode 95, Goku flying towards #19 at the end of episode 127 or Gotenks flying towards Super Buu after coming out of the RoSaT himself along with Piccolo, just to name a few).
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
Chiki wrote:
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Didn't the manga just cover Vegeta vs Beerus, and he didn't transform into SSJ3?
Yeah.. to be honest, after seeing the manga, I am 99% convinced that Vegeta won't go SSJ3.
But there are some differences between the manga and the anime. Let's pray and hope he does!
I am equally convinced Gotenks won't go SSJ3 in the episode, unlike the manga. And about 100% sure there will be no Champa in the episode.
Apparently he won't even go Super Saiya-jin, let alone Super Saiya-jin 3 (in fact, the only instance/movie/special he went SSJ3 besides twice in the Majin Buu arc was in Movie 13).
Given Champa's obvious connection with the 6th Universe one way or another, I'd say my best bet is that we'll only get to see him for the first time in the build-up for/during the 6th Universe arc, and no sooner than that (certainly not during the Beerus arc, and almost certainly not in the Freeza arc either).
From a certain point of view, things are progressing quite slowly, and Champa will obviously be a major character in the entirety of DBSuper as a full-fledged series - even judging by his and his attendant's appearance in the opening - so he'll most likely not be introduced in a hasty manner, as in, out of nowhere; instead, he'll get the proper build-up and background story to explain just who or what he is and what his relationship with the Beerus + Whis duo was and is.
The first two episodes were smooth, family-oriented ones dedicated to (re)introduce the main and supporting characters, along with some ominous/chilling appearances by Beerus, but from that onward we're getting the same events depicted in BoG being presented in almost the same exact circumstances in the episodes of DBSuper, with some minor changes and additions; judging by the pace of the episodes and the rate at which the storyline is moving forward, as well as the episodes' titles, we'll be "done" with the Beerus arc by episode 11/12, after which we'll probably get some (most likely two) smoother episodes to make the bridge between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc, with everyone (including Beerus) pondering on the fight that just happened, after which Freeza finally reappears - I'd say there's some definite probability of Champa showing up in-between the Beerus and the Freeza arc, but it's not too likely; Freeza's arc - including stuff and events which happened off-screen in-between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the movies' timeline (Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to train with Whis, Freeza training) will most likely also take no longer than 10/12 episodes to be done with, and no longer than that, so we can expect the real entirely new stuff - the 6th Universe arc, and consequently Champa's full introduction and interaction with Beerus and everyone else - by episode 23/25. That has always been my estimate and I'm sticking with it until further info or notice.
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Gotta say that although I am indeed thrilled at the prospect of giving everyone more fighting time this time in DBSuper when compared to BoG, the way Beerus KO's Piccolo with two masterfully-applied pressure-point attacks with the chopsticks was badass; it's also about how quick it was. We're not going to get that in the episode's version of it, though. I must confess I am rather curious and hyped to see just how each one of the ones fearless enough to charge Beerus will be put out of commission this time around. Judging by last week(end)'s episode preview, I'd say Piccolo, #18 and Tenshinhan won't land a single hit on Beerus and will get KO'd in a matter of seconds, while both Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan will have much more fighting time. Vegeta will obviously be the "star" among the team for the entirety of the episode, or at least more than half of it, especially after the "infamous" "mutation".
Can't wait. 17 minutes to go. :twisted:
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
The Champa stuff in the manga would have been a great way to add something new to these arcs and build up to something interesting. Ergh.
On a side note, it seems to me that Champa really might be from another universe, considering he refers to the supreme kais as "kaioshin of the 7th universe." That also means each universe has its own set of kaioshin, meaning the gods of each universe won't be something radically different. >.>
Champa will obviously most likely be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th Universe. He's a cat as well, dresses almost the same and even has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis. This would explain the bitterness/rivalry between Champa and Beerus. There's another theory which I've explained more than once, so I won't do it again, but I regard it as far-fetched, although it would indeed do a better job at explaining why Champa has ill feelings towards Beerus and could in fact be plotting some sort of assault or revenge on him. The deity hierarchy in the 6th Universe - and probably all Universes - will also probably be similar or indeed the same, along with the planets and races which can be found throughout the entirety of the arcs in DB and DBZ (warriors or tyrants like Freeza, Dabura, Bojack, the Saiya-jin, the Namek-sei-jin, the Kaioshin, the Kaiou-samas, etc.).
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- No Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta (as expected and pointed out NUMEROUS times)
- No Super Saiya-jin Gotenks (let alone Super Saiya-jin 3)
- Dende being able to sense Beerus is some sort of deity before Piccolo
- As expected and pointed out just minutes ago, Vegeta preparing to charge at Beerus just as the episode is cut
Right about everything.
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And finally, FINALLY, some respect towards the fantastic character Piccolo is by finally giving him some lines and some actual action (not really the fighting, but his remarks about Vegeta's reaction towards Beerus and his realization of Beerus' sheer power). I understand Piccolo's character is only suited to intervene in an in-depth manner in serious circumstances, which was just the case.
Speaking of which, THIS was the instance in which Beerus is shown to be much more a menace and is presented in a much more serious/ominous/chilling light when compared to BoG (far better displayed in this episode than in the previous instances in early DBSuper, such as his way of dealing with the planets he destroys, his humiliation of King Vegeta, his ultimate THRASHING of Beerus and even his chilling line before BRUTALLY and mercilessly KO'ing Goku in a miserable manner). Again, if once hadn't seen BoG, or if it never happened at all, one would be thinking at this point that Beerus is much closer to a full-fledged sadistic maniacal villain than he actually is when compared to the movie.
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Ajay wrote:
Wow, I don't know what it was about that episode, but I had goosebumps throughout so much of it. Even though I know what's going to happen, and a lot of the scenes are arguably done better in the film, I felt like a child again watching the best parts of Z. Maybe it was seeing a large portion of the gang fighting against such a formidable enemy, I don't know. It just did all kinds of things to me!
Vegeta's reaction to Bulma being hit was unreal. I don't know if I liked it or not! It was like a crazy version of Gohan's reaction in the Cell arc. Truly extraordinary direction during that section. The close ups on his his eyes and mouth, the sparks, and the hair. So good. They also seemed to ignore a lot of Yamamuro's design traits; a lot of the shots reminded me of parts of the Boo arc.
The wait for next week is going to be very painful.
As always, will have a gallery of the best shots up within the hour. Will get a WebM of the transformation, too.
That feeling of desperation was definitely present to some degree - still not comparable to what we got in the best of DBZ, obviously - in this episode. Piccolo's remarks about Beerus' power, plus the fact he's acting evil while being shown to be pretty much untouchable by Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, himself, #18 or Majin Buu makes it for a pretty ominous menacing character. In BoG, he was presented as a laid-back and even somewhat comic antagonist, in DBSuper, especially in this episode, he has been/is being portrayed in a much, much darker light.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Also, I literally started LAUGHING out loud when Gohan got defeated with one hit. There's ZERO respect for the character and that's, sadly, hilarious.
Since when being one-shoted = zero respect to a character ?
So Bulma being knock out with 1 slap in BoG = no respect to her character ?
Gohan is at least the strongest or second strongest of the group on the ship, and he did so much worse than everyone else. Beerus swats him away using Boo as a baseball bat. Everyone else managed to at least make some form of contact with Beerus, while Gohan is knocked out so pathetically it's hilarious.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Oh, poor Gohan. Guy can't catch a break. Beerus used Majin Boo like a rolled up newspaper and swatted Gohan down to the floor like a fly. But in all fairness, he got knocked in one hit in BOG too. :P
Well two hits, but at least he touched Beerus. Gotenks, Piccolo, 18, Tenshinhan, hell everyone else did better than him :lol:. Hell Bulma even got a hit on Beerus :lol:.
That just goes to show what we've been saying and discussing a few weeks ago on their depiction and treatment of Gohan not only in DBSuper, but in fact in anything they've been throwing our way after 11 years of inactivity, from the 2008 Special to BoG and Fukkatsu no F: a nerdy little weakling who neglects his training, hardly fights even when a serious menace shows up, and all of this despite being arguably the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him, and just months after gaining a power-up which put him above most versions of Majin/Super Buu and on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, making him one of the strongest warriors who has ever existed.
Gohan isn't a weakling, you can't go from being one of the strongest warriors in the Universe to a useless fighter like that, especially being (half) a Saiya-jin. He's just been deliberately treated this way to make (even) more room for Vegeta to surpass him and be actually the ONLY one to be able to keep up with Goku in their insane power-ups to Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, as the series co-protagonist and second or third most important character (I think we can agree that it has become rather obvious for weeks or even months that in DBSuper the three most important protagonists are (going to be) Goku, Beerus and Vegeta. No room for Gohan. They didn't need to push him to the sidelines in this absolutely miserable way, though. It's like he isn't a fighter anymore (which, in a way, he actually isn't, since a fighter is interested in getting stronger, martial arts and training, not books and "becoming a scholar"). If we went back a few months, during the Majin Buu arc, Vegeta wouldn't scold Gohan for his weakness/softness, he would right away KILL him. What a waste of Saiya-jin potential.
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Turambar wrote:
I dunno Beerus' face seemed shocked. Gohan at least managed to catch Beerus of guard for a second in BOG, and this time we get to see just how much they really hate Gohan. New tier list.
Vegeta
Gotenks
Boo
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Bulma
Gohan.
Regardless of the humorous aspect of putting Gohan below Bulma, why the hell is Krillin above Tenshinhan? Tenshinhan is an actual serious martial artist, he keeps training endlessly and even had his go at Beerus valiantly, unlike Krillin. I'm getting pretty tired of everyone putting Krillin above Tenshinhan and stating he's the strongest Earthling. Just because he's Goku's best friend and much more of a protagonist than Tenshinhan, who has had long periods of absence, unlike Krillin, who's ALWAYS there, doesn't mean he's stronger than Tenshinhan.
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Beerus-sama wrote:
Birusu16 wrote:
So can anyone explain what was going on with the Dende situation? I mean it seems like he was eventually able to sense Beerus' ki and thus could come to a conclusion as to who he is hence his reaction, but it's hard to know for sure without knowing what's being said.
Thats what it was, Dende can feel Beerus' ki and it scared him :P
He also noticed the special about Beerus' ki to get to the conclusion he was a god...
The thing that stroke me as a little bit strange isn't that Dende had the potential to sense that Beerus was some sort of deity, it was the fact that he did it before Piccolo, who has much more experience at being a deity than Dende, not to mention much more knowledge (at least the "Kami half" of him).
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
Jesus just let gohan die already he will never amount to anything anymore :lol: seriously this guys went defeating cell ,stomping buu,to being an utter joke :yawn:
He has the potential to surpass Goku and Vegeta, he just needs a good reason to train and bring out that power.
Absolutely agree with the fact he's the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him. However, as a non-pure Saiya-jin, he lacks the maniacal need to continue fighting and training constantly to overcome his limits and those of others. By "good reason" you can only mean something like a major psychotic human-absorbing mass murdered like Cell torturing your friends and family in front of you, going Super Saiya-jin 2 and disposing of the Cell Juniors and Cell in a badass manner, because before that he's a cry-baby (losing control in his famous tantrums here and there, but ultimately being unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta, Freeza or Piccolo as a child/teenager) and after that he's little more than a nerd more focused on f****** studying than developing his IMMENSE potential, which is so great that it could be argued he has it in himself to become the most powerful warrior there is in the entire Universe, with the only exception being the insane power-up he did NOTHING which resulted in him achieving a level on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and thrashing Super Buu, and even in that instance it takes two episodes for him to be overcome again and be pushed to the sidelines pretty much forever. It's not Gohan's fault, it's the way they're deliberately - or not so deliberately - portraying him in this miserable light. No wonder Freeza manages to KO and render him unconscious and nearly dead with one blow in his first form in Fukkatsu no F, he - like Vegeta pointed out as he was fighting against Dabura - lost all of his fighting instincts. I seriously and honestly wonder what their plans for him are; it doesn't hurt anybody to have him be surpassed by Vegeta, not to mention Goku, Beerus and Whis, but holy s***, we're talking a guy who just months ago was one of the strongest warriors in the entire Universe. I can honestly see them pondering: "what the hell are we going to do about Gohan? We're going to deliberately push him to the sidelines as far as serious power goes when compared to the very main protagonists, but should we give him some proper fighting time fitting of his actual immense power or should we treat him as a nerdy little weakling instead?"
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There are many things that set them apart, but there are also a lot of similarities between them: Beerus and Freeza; both of them enjoy the sight of planets blowing up (especially if they're the ones which cause it to blow up), they're both somewhat cautious about - not to say frightened of - the legends and power of the Super Saiya-jin/Super Saiya-jin God, they both humiliate King Vegeta, they BOTH compare Vegeta and his "foolishness" to that of his father (Freeza in episode 78 and Beerus in episode 7 of DBSuper), they're both insanely powerful (Freeza was at the time he first showed up, anyway), far above anyone else to the point in being in an entirely different dimension altogether, and both display sadistic + arrogant + menacing tendencies along with vanity and evil. It's really no wonder they had some sort of interaction a long time in the past.
I'm honestly extremely relieved and satisfied with how they're portraying Beerus in a much more serious/ominous/chilling/dramatic light when compared to BoG. In DBSuper, especially the second half of episode 6 and the entirety of episode 7, he comes across as a total villain, someone who's a menace to the planet and to everyone, evil, genocidal and extremely, EXTREMELY powerful. Regardless of the way Gohan is being treated miserably in the last years and in this episode in particular, when he takes his glasses off and talks to Videl he puts a lot of drama in his lines, he did say something along the lines of "it appears we're up against a tremendous enemy again this time", which reminded me of DBZ, when each of the main good guys evaluate a new major villain.
As I said yesterday, FINALLY Piccolo got the respect he deserves as one of the most fantastic characters in the whole of the Dragonball franchise; I understand that given his character and anti-social attitude he's only relevant when serious stuff starts happening, and that's exactly why we had to wait until episode 7 to see some of it. I'm not even talking about his fighting go at Beerus, it's more about the way he perceives the enemy and evaluates everyone's efforts as entirely redundant against him. It was definitely a Piccolo moment.
I was sure there would be no Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta, almost sure Gotenks wouldn't turn Super Saiya-jin (let alone SSJ3) and also almost sure that Vegeta would either have half of the episode dedicated to his second round at Beerus after losing it, or they would save the entire showdown for the next episode instead - they went with the latter.
This was the more dramatic episode so far and the one that resembles the kind of atmospheres we got in the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ when it comes to drama/seriousness/evil. Again, if one hadn't seen BoG, or if it just never even happened altogether, we'd by now be thinking Beerus is much closer to a full-fledged genocidal maniacal villain than he actually is. There was something wrong with the episode's pace and in the end it came across as "lacking" in some aspects which I still personally have to exactly figure out, but the entire atmosphere of the episode (along with some of the best animation in DBSuper so far, if not THE best) would/will compensate for any potential shortcomings from other points of view in terms of analysis. As I was watching it while it aired, time just seemed to fly off, unlike the other episodes. You really can't call an episode from the Dragonball franchise fantastic without the fighting + ominousness/seriousness/drama/desperation combo. This episode delivered fantastically in that particular aspect.
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Bullza wrote:
He's becoming almost as useless as Yamcha. I'm glad I don't particularly care for the character because if I was a Gohan fan I'd be pissed.
Effortlessly stomped by Beerus in Battle of Gods, didn't even get to throw a punch before getting one shotted in this episode, got one shotted by Freeza in his weakest form and lost his Mystic powers. All he's done in ages is beat some fodder and Shisami.
I don't know why they even continue to use the character anymore.
Except Yamcha IS useless and has become obsolete as a warrior - in terms of power and even relevance - since the Saiya-jin arc, whereas Gohan is arguably the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him and just months prior to DBSuper achieved a power-up which put him on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and above several versions of Majin/Super Buu, automatically and effectively making him one of the strongest warriors who has ever existed. You can't go from that to . He's not a full-fledged Saiya-jin, he lacks the maniacal desire to train and fight, but goddamn it, at least before that he was keen on helping out as a kid/teenager and went against his mother's constant nagging on numerous occasions, while in recent years he basically has given up to it and decided himself he wanted to be a "renowned scholar" instead of developing his IMMENSE potential, which I'd go as far as postulate that could make him - with the proper training and circumstances - the most powerful being who has ever lived.
I honestly don't know whether or not the decision to depict him in this miserable way not only as a warrior/fighter, but as a character, is deliberate or not; it could very well be deliberate in order to make (even) more room for Vegeta to be the one to keep up with Goku in terms of power, matching it to his degree of (co-)protagonism, but either they're deliberately making him appear to have lost all of his fighting instincts and maybe even most of his previously immense power, or they just forgot how powerful he was during the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc (beyond Vegeta at his strongest - Super Saiya-jin 2 -, beyond most versions of Majin/Super Buu, beyond Gotenks, on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, not to mention everyone else below these).
It's not that he would stand a chance against Beerus anyway, that's not what's bugging us; NOBODY stands a chance against Beerus at this current, specific point. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku was miserably destroyed, and so was fat Majin Buu, let alone the likes of Piccolo, #18 or, even more so, Tenshinhan. Some of us are pissed off - I'm not, because I've never been a Gohan fan except for the badass way he went insane on the Cell Juniors and Cell himself - and some others are just disappointed or shocked, the latter being much closer to my personal case. At least let the guy throw a few punches and kicks, or even some Ki attacks. Was it really necessary to render him out of commission without letting him even TOUCH Beerus? If this was the early Majin Buu arc, inside of Babidi's ship, and after the fight with Dabura, Vegeta wouldn't scold him for neglecting his training, he would right away KILL him.
I don't if we're supposed to be disappointed and somewhat angry at Gohan himself as a character or actually at the ones who chose to portray him this way.
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Jaetinh wrote:
Hopefully it's not just Vegeta and Goku who're going to U6, they need to make Gohan a badass again and take that dude with them.
The way they're treating him BOTH as a warrior and as a character in DBSuper (and indeed in any Movies/Specials thrown our way in recent years), I wouldn't really count on that, pal. Just read the other threads on the subject.
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Sora Saiyan wrote:
Well I enjoyed the episode, but where was SSJ3 Gotenks! I know it wouldn't have made any difference, but it would've been cool to see him. Ultimate Gohan didn't get a chance to do anything, and it would've been nice to see him try and do something even though it would've done nothing, but at least he appeared.
Anyway, Beerus is making everybody look stupid, and it's no shock everybody is defeated pretty much right away.
That Vegeta scene was so annoying at the end, it seemed like a drawn out power up rather than being caught in a fit of rage. I was just caught wondering if he was annoyed or scared still. It wasn't done well.
Losing it to the point of having a psychotic episode (clinically described as a temporary loss of notion of one's actions or control over them, to the point of not even remembering having performed them) - seen in numerous instances in Gohan as a child/teenager, Goku when he goes Super Saiya-jin for the first time and, if you count the movies, obviously Brolly, whose psychosis isn't temporary, but actually permanent) typically makes the warrior jump or leap towards the target of his rage without even thinking, at full power and in an uncontrollable manner (usually depicted, from a visual/aesthetics point of view, by having the character lose the pupils, like Brolly in almost the entirety of Movie 8 or right when Goku goes SSJ on Namek), and that just wasn't the case of Vegeta. My only guess is that his degree of "respect" and frightfulness/carefulness towards Beerus is actually so great that it conflicts with his utter anger and rage at seeing Bulma getting hit by the same guy who happened to torture his father in front of him when he was a child (not to mention the sheer fact that it's the same guy who's actually so insanely strong that it makes Vegeta look like nothing, and we're talking about Vegeta here, nearly the incarnation of pride in strength and heritage, the one who's never allowed or accepted anyone to surpass him in power).
We'll indeed have to wait for episode 8 to see just how the fight between enraged Vegeta and Beerus plays out; for some reason I doubt he'll be able to land a few actually hurting punches and kicks on Beerus like he was able to do in BoG. His temporary power boost and rage lasted only a few seconds in the movie as well, so we can expect only a slightly stretched version of the event in the beginning of episode 8 before he gets KO'd or rendered out of commission as well. And THEN we'll finally get to see Goku finally intervening to prevent the planet's and everyone's destruction and expressing his interest in what that "Super Saiya-jin God business" is all about.
However, if you compare the atmosphere in which everyone at the party lashes out at Beerus in BoG to the atmosphere in which the entire event takes place in episode 7 of DBSuper, well, there's just no possible comparison, this is being done in a much more ominouss/serious/dramatic light, Beerus is presented as a real meance, somebody who combines quite a degree of evil plus the fact that he's INSANELY powerful, which goes back to the trend seen in DBZ when the warriors evaluate just how much of a menace each major villain is. I finally got the same feeling we used to get throughout all the arcs of DBZ and the last stages of DB, although - understandably - to a somewhat lesser degree, given the fact Beerus STILL manages to come across as laid-back and a little bit comic, although we only saw that in the previous episodes; in this particular one, there was nothing funny about him at all. Things got really serious in this episode, from all angles. When Piccolo starts getting genuinely worried, you can tell there's something pretty serious and menacing going on. The episode did indeed have its shortcomings and was "lacking" in some way which I still can't exactly figure out, I think it has to do with the pacing, I don't know, I'll need to watch it multiple times to understand just exactly what it is when compared to the other episodes, but at least in the fighting/seriousness/drama/ominousness/desperation area, I was more than pleased with the episode's atmosphere; up until now, DBSuper (not to mention the 2008 Special or even BoG and indeed Fukkatsu no F) utterly failed to generate an atmosphere that could be dated back to the ones we were presented throughout DBZ.
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ParkerAL wrote:
Does anyone else dislike Dragon Ball Super for flanderizing Beerus's personality? For some reason, Toei is really blowing his more villainous characteristics out of proportion. Despite his fickleness and irritable temper, in Battle of Gods you could still see him as an ambiguous antagonist - someone who was legitimately likable under the right circumstances. Now he's acting like a villain in the same vein as Freeza, Cell and Super Buu. Sure, he's mostly doing the same stuff as in the film, but there's an extra layer of petty sadism underlying it all.
I can only hope Toei intends to develop his character as the series progresses, and eventually show him mellowing out as he interacts with Goku. Otherwise, I'm not going to enjoy his appearances nearly as much. I'll also lose a lot of appreciation and respect for his character.
I don't mind that at all, on the contrary. The entire atmosphere surrounding his appearances in DBSuper up until this episode were already much more ominous and dramatic when compared to his depiction in BoG, but in THIS episode, now HERE things got pretty serious, which I've said multiple times is one of the most fundamental aspects of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ so fantastic: the drama, the seriousness, the desperation over fighting someone utterly evil who combines that with an insane degree of power, a true menace.
Based not on BoG, but actually on the first episodes of DBSuper, we already know Beerus is AT LEAST capable of comic displays and we know all about his laid-backness, but in episode 7 he basically went on a (rather quiet, as it's not like he really needs to scream and shout to KO anybody there) rampage without, for the first time in the series, displaying anything other than wickedness, arrogance and sadism (besides sheer immense power) for one single second.
I wouldn't go as far as to compare him to the likes of Freeza or Cell, or even Vegeta in his early days, in terms of wickedness, ruthlessness, evil, mania or narcissism, but he got pretty close to that, and that's the very first time we got that hint at the atmosphere(s) we were used to get in DBZ when the warriors were presented with yet another serious menace to the planet, to themselves and to life in general (or even to the entire Universe). As far as this aspect goes, I'd give this episode a 10 out of 10. It does have its shortcomings in terms of pace and some other aspects - we've been debating Gohan's depiction thoroughly for the last hours and right after the episode and the fight aired -, but when Piccolo gets genuinely worried, you can tell there's some pretty serious stuff going on, and I was more than happy to have Piccolo become agitated at the prospect of yet another seemingly invincible and untouchable opponent who just happens to be an antagonist (I STILL won't go as far as deeming him a full-fledged "villain", even after what happened in this episode and the way he and his actions were depicted and portrayed in it).
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CortoMaltese wrote:
After years of bullshit like "Gohan is the strongest", it's so pleasant to see the truth.
BOG confirm Goku as the first Z, DBSUPER confirm exactly the same thing (Episode 2) ! The episode 7 confirm how Gohan is by far overrated ! He is even weaker than Bejita... What a shame ! After a decade of lies, the truth is revealed and that's the better choice possible ! Thank you Akira Toriyama.
From a certain point of view, he's not weaker than Vegeta at this particular point, he just got to a point where he neglected his training and the development of his IMMENSE potential so much that he most likely can't tap into his Ultimate stage anymore, rendering him weaker than Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta. However, it's not just his loss of power or fighting instincts, it's the whole way he's being depicted - deliberately or not - as a useless, obsolete and utterly inconsequential warrior (if we can still call him that). This was the guy who just months before this takes place got an immense power-up by doing NOTHING other than sitting still for a few hours, after which he was put on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, far above Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, above Gotenks and above most versions of Majin/Super Buu, obviously not to mention everyone else below that. Even taking into consideration the fact that he's not a pure Saiya-jin, hence he lacks the maniacal "need" to keep training and fighting on a constant basis to surpass and overcome his limits and those of others, you really just can't go from being arguably one of the most powerful warriors who has ever existed in the Universe to this pitiful excuse of a fighter who neglects his martial arts training and fails to develop on his absolutely IMMENSE potential, which I'd go as far as postulating that it could make him, with the proper training and the right circumstances, the most powerful single being in the entire Universe. Not to mention the fact he just lost - again - his fighting instincts, which were at its top in the Cell Games -, something Vegeta points out right after his fight with Dabura.
You could see this happening somewhat judging by the way he's floating around with Videl looking like a peace-loving innocent, innofensive nerd in the early episodes of DBSuper and indeed in every Movie/Special they've thrown our way recently (2008 Special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F).
I'd say basically what Vegeta at his best would probably say: "What a waste of potential".
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MCDaveG wrote:
You guys forget one aspect of this whole problem!
It's all Chi-Chi's fault since the beginning of Z! This classic megalomaniacal parents who want their kids become a pro hockey player, lawyer or such, shaping their kids out of their own will.
Spoiler:View
Well, he was with the team on Namek, he did fight at the Cell Games and Chi Chi wasn't even around anymore during the Majin Buu arc. He escaped Chi Chi's abusive parenting on numerous occasions. Either the "disease" spread to himself or he all along wanted to be what he ultimately became: a regular peace-loving guy who wants to develop his intellect rather than his martial arts prowess and power, neglecting his training and failing miserably to tap into and develop his IMMENSE potential. Chi Chi can be pretty nagging - putting it mildly -, but she never had any real control over Gohan or Goku. Gohan went to become the most powerful in the team at the Cell Games, losing his shit, turning Super Saiya-jin 2 and disposing of the Cell Juniors and Cell himself in a badass manner, and 7 years after that all it took for him to become one of the strongest warriors in the Universe - again, far beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, beyond Gotenks and several versions of Majin/Super Buu and on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku - was to basically sit around for a few hours doing NOTHING.
Don't blame it all on Chi Chi.
I'm not making so many posts on the whole Gohan matter because I'm enraged due to being a fan of him. I'm not, and I've never been. I'm just a little disappointed to the point of anger at himself as a character and at the creators of Dragonball for their depiction of him in DBSuper, the 2008 Special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, because it amounts to an ENORMOUS, immeasurable waste of Saiya-jin potential. Vegeta in his best, early days would summarize the thing exactly this very same way, I'm sure.
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Birusu16 wrote:
I honestly don't see what the big deal is with Gohan. Yes he's stronger than the other Z-Fighters, but that doesn't mean anything considering Beerus is far stronger than any of the Z-Fighters. Nobody is going to come off looking much better than another because they're all ants to Beerus.
Yes, Gohan got the worst treatment of them all, but would it really satisfy any Gohan fan if he went down in the same manner as Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and 18? They were beaten just as easily and they didn't manage to touch Beerus either. If anything you should just hope he doesn't fight.
Meh. I just don't see the big deal. Gohan isn't a relevant character anymore in terms of power. We've known this for a while, so I'm not sure why people keep expecting major things from him.
I'm not a fan of Gohan now, nor have I ever been, so my numerous posts on him and on the way he's been depicted/portrayed aren't triggered by anger at the way they're treating him at all, it's more due to what you could perhaps call a Vegeta-like attitude (like the one he displayed at Gohan after his fight with Dabura) upon realizing just how much he skipped/neglected training and utterly lost his fighting instincts. It's just an ENORMOUS waste of potential.
You're right, nobody in that boat, or anywhere in the Universe except Whis at this particular stage, for that matter, is even in the same dimension of power Beerus is at, but this is just the foreseeable conclusion to what was building up in the early episodes of DBSuper and in the 2008 Special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F: when we finally got to see him in an actual fight against a serious menace, he'd be miserably KO'd or rendered out of commission just as easily and quickly as the other warriors are, and they're all (except Goku, Vegeta and Majin Buu) far, far below him in terms of power.
I don't agree with you when you say that he's been irrelevant in terms of POWER, just a few months prior to DBSuper he attained a power-up which put him far beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, most versions of Majin/Kid Buu, Gotenks and on par with Goku, effectively making him one of the strongest and most powerful warriors there ever was in the entire Universe. You can't go from that to being utterly useless and neglect your latent and natural fighting abilities, along with your ENORMOUS potential, going around in a peace-loving manner with Videl studying all the f****** time instead of developing your martial arts/fighting prowess. If he had 5% of the fighting attitude both Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jins, have, he'd reach levels far beyond them in to time and arguably with little effort. That's why I'm personally disappointed to the point of being almost angry (at him, as a character, or at the creators of the franchise, who chose to depict him this way).
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Bullza wrote:
SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?
And why not? Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 3 on Earth during the Majin Buu arc didn't kill fat Majin Buu and ended the saga right there because he wanted the living ones (the "next generation") to take care of their own business and go through tough times, train and get stronger to keep the Earth in peace against stronger and stronger opponents. While it's true that the Majin Buu version Gotenks, as a Super Saiya-jin 3, fought was stronger than the fat version, I've always viewed SSJ3 Goku as stronger than base Super Buu (as in, with no one absorbed), since I put Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku at the same exact level as that of Ultimate Gohan, who THRASHED that same exact Super Buu, which Gotenks failed to do.
Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan are both stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks. If not fact, near certainty.
Doctor. wrote:
I wonder if Goku blasting Cell's head off can be used to tell how strong he is.
That wasn't even what could be called or deemed "mind-training", it was just Goku thinking about his previous fights.
Birusu16 wrote:
Why would that be the case? The power rankings appear to have stayed the same after the Buu Saga, with Goku and Vegeta probably getting a bit stronger, but not enough to catch up to anyone. It was only passed six months to a year.
I don't see how getting defeated in one, instead of two hits, proves A character now is stronger than B character;it's established that Beerus is likely stronger than Vegetto, so he can take everyone out swiftly, if he so desires.
The quickness or way in which a fighter is KO'd or rendered out of commission when compared to another doesn't necessarily tell how much of a difference, if any, there is between them, we need to take into account the entire circumstances in which they fight from all possible angles.
Beerus is not "likely" stronger than Vegitto, he IS stronger than Vegitto. Even Goku himself says in the aftermath of his miserable fight at Kaiou-sama's planet against Beerus, both in BoG and in DBSuper's version of the events, that not even a fusion (whether through the dance - Gogeta - or through the Potara method - Vegitto) would be enough to stand up to Beerus.
This is my list of warriors from strongest to weakest in the Majin Buu arc, ALL of which are below Beerus and Whis (and, until further notice, no one else except Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta):
1 - Vegitto (about twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan, the strongest warrior in all of DBZ)
2 - Super Buu (with Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
3 - Super Buu (with SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
4 - Kid Buu
5 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (on par with Ultimate Gohan)
6 - Ultimate Gohan (on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku)
7 - Super Buu
8 - Evil Buu
9 - Majin Buu
10 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
12 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
13 - Dabura
14 - Kaioshin
By the way, just because Kid Buu "happens" to be the most fearsome and DANGEROUS of characters due to the sheer nature of his destructive and sociopathic personality, it doesn't necessarily or automatically mean he's the strongest version of Majin Buu. He's more dangerous, since he doesn't hesitate in destroying anything or anyone just because he feels like it, but in terms of power he's below other versions of Super Buu.
The only way someone can make the claim that Goku is the strongest warrior there is during or after the Majin Buu saga is if we count non-fused good guys only, or alternatively if we count only non-fused warriors, in which case it could be still be argued that Ultimate Gohan is at least on par with him and that Kid Buu might also be slightly stronger.
Since Vegitto only appears for a few episodes, never to be seen again, and Majin Buu and all of his versions are wiped out when Kid Buu is defeated, then yeah, at the very start of DBSuper Goku, at his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, and on par with Ultimate Gohan, is the strongest warrior on Earth and below only Beerus and Whis in the entire Universe.
And yeah, Vegeta is THAT low on the scale, but that will soon be fixed and his degree of power will be deliberately matched to his degree of (co-)protagonism in DBSuper, surpassing Gohan, all versions of Majin Buu, Gotenks and Vegitto, when he achieves Super Saiya-jin God and then Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God, effectively and finally setting him on par/close to Goku in the same respective stage(s) and slightly below the Beerus + Whis duo.
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Doctor. wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
The day I'll see Super have this kind of violence will be the day Broly becomes canon.
Beerus was crushing Vegeta's head, what are you talking about?
There's one major element we've all been forgetting about while discussing the violence/darkness/desperation/seriousness/hopelessness and the whole atmosphere in which Beerus is being shown in DBSuper (particularly in episode 7) when compared to BoG and to the 80's and 90's DB and DBZ level of genocidal maniacal villains and hopeless/desperate/serious circumstances: the background music.
You can't touch the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ for a number of reasons which I've detailed in-depth in the last days and weeks, that's iconic, unforgettable stuff, but this episode finally did come close to/approach the level of hopelessness of the atmosphere in which Beerus is being portrayed. He comes across as a sadistic, evil, insanely powerful villain, and when Piccolo becomes genuinely worried, that's a sign that things are starting to get really serious. On that aspect, which I regard as fundamental in what made the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, Majin Buu arcs so great, unforgettable and fantastic, this episode delivered beyond my expectations and compensates for any potential shortcomings it might contain from other perspectives, namely in terms of pace.
Again, if one hadn't seen BoG, or if it never even happened, we'd all be thinking by now that Beerus is actually much closer to a maniacal, genocidal villain than he actually is (but still not comparable to the likes of Freeza, Cell, Piccolo Daimao or Vegeta in his early days in terms of how psychotic, ruthless and utterly evil they are/were), despite having been exposed to his laid-backness and somewhat comic aspects in the early episodes of DBSuper. I can't tell how happy I am with the end result and with their decision to portray him and the events surrounding him in a much darker light, reminiscent, in fact, of the degree of seriousness/drama/hopelessness present in the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
Image
The day I'll see Super have this kind of violence will be the day Broly becomes canon.
Well there is still the ROF arc and future story lines. ROF did felt more darker and serious compare to BOG. BOG is much light heart and tamer then most of DBZ, so who knows how the rest of Super will turn out.
Beerus is indeed being portrayed in a much darker light when compared to BoG. We were indeed exposed to instances in which he came across as an extremely powerful yet playful, laid-back and even somewhat comic character, but episode 7 set the record straight once and for all (his humiliation of King Vegeta to much greater proportions, his way of dealing with the planets he destroys, the way he THRASHES fat Majin Buu to the point of absolute destruction and especially that last line he gave Goku before miserably, ruthlessly and mercilessly rendering him unconscious were just the build-up for the atmosphere we got in episode 7).
Instead of writing another (presumably huge) post, I'll just reply to this by taking a post I wrote a few days ago on the matter of DBZ vs DBSuper in terms of seriousness/drama/hopelessness/violence:
"I absolutely agree with the ominousness and seriousness of the background given from episode 1 of DBZ, with the arrival of Raditz and his interaction with Piccolo, not to mention the events of episode 2, with Raditz revealing every shocking detail to Goku, kidnapping his nephew, and then, ultimately, the forgery of an uneasy alliance to proceed to a fantastically animated fight which ended with the brutal death by impalement of two brothers, one of them being the series' main protagonist, in a penetrating wave of demonic light, after which he happens to spit out blood more than once and, while dying, reveals to Piccolo that two of his pals are coming to Earth, and they're much stronger than even him, putting their chances at near-0.
These were the first five episodes of DBZ. The background music was fantastic, the fighting choreography was delicious, the drama and seriousness couldn't be portrayed in a better way, the plot was basically set for many, many episodes and two arcs of violence, blood, war, genocide, drama and desperation (in the Saiya-jin arc, in the Namek saga and in the entire Freeza arc there's just as much blood, violence, drama and seriousness as in the beginning of DBZ).
As a hardcore male fan, I regard the seriousness, drama, desperation and fighting choreography as a fundamental part of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so fantastic and untouchable.
However, DBSuper is not only happening 18 years after the last series ended, and 24 to 26 (!) years after the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs first came out, with all the necessary changes and adaptations to the times, it apparently is targeted mostly at a different audience and cannot, under any circumstances, be seen and analyzed in the same light as DB and DBZ in none of its aspects or from any point of view. You cannot and should not compare it, not even animation-wise, and if you go to watch DBSuper with the kind of attitude "I'm going to compare this to DBZ to see if it lives up to it in fighting choreography, seriousness, drama, blood and guts, violence" you're obviously in for a major, major disappointment.
The introduction of Beerus and his previously-unseen character (laid-backness and some comic elements, despite being the (second) most powerful entity in the entire Universe) and the entirety of BoG was beyond enjoyable, it was a full-fledged fantastic movie, but not even that should be compared to DBZ from any perspective. DBSuper is taking on most, or virtually all elements from BoG (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God), and is a retelling of the movie's events in almost the same exact circumstances, with a few minor changes and additions and with obviously and expected worse animation. If you enjoyed BoG, as I assume you did, you'd at least try to give DBSuper a chance before rushing to treat anyone who enjoys it as an idiot.
I enjoy DBSuper and I get orgasms whenever I think about it and the fact that I get to see an entirely new Dragonball episode every single Saturday/Sunday, and this is coming from a guy who values and identifies seriousness, violence and drama as a fundamental aspect of the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, and regards the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs as 80's and 90's untouchable stuff which will never meet its match in terms of overall quality and atmosphere. This is how you should start and where you start from when "preparing" yourself to watch DBSuper, and pretty much anything they've thrown our way recently after 11 years of inactivity (the 2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F). You need to adapt to the times and understand that you'll never see a character spitting blood from his mouth after a major whole has been put to his chest by a demonic wave of light with an ominous soundtrack in the back, in circumstances and in a whole atmosphere of drama, desperation and seriousness. DBSuper is never going to give you that or live up to that, and it's not meant to nor is it capable of doing it.
I hope I've proven that it's possible to both agree and disagree with you at the same time, and that it's possible to view DBZ as untouchable, viewing its seriousness and drama, its violence and insane fighting as the key element, and to enjoy and look forward to and be satisfied with pretty much everything DBSuper has given us so far.
The appearance of Piccolo Daimao pretty much marks the slight (or not so slight) but decisive shift in the road DB was taking. Toriyama himself admitted that he wanted to introduce a true villain, someone psychotic and absolutely evil, who would kill and torture for please, the first, real, TRUE enemy, villain and nemesis for Goku and the other good guys. The move was a complete success. My kanji says it all. Even though we understandably still see a number of comic instances in the arc itself, the whole atmosphere surrounding Piccolo Daimao and his rampage of killing, enslaving and murdering plus the fact that he was for a long sequence of episodes thought by Muten Roshi to be a legendary invincible opponent to the point of causing him shock and sending shivers down his spine upon seeing his symbol for the first time in episode 102 of DB is comparable to the arcs in DBZ in terms of seriousness and drama (and in some cases, superior to some of them), although in DB we're restricted to Earth, while in DBZ we explore space, with genocidal maniacal ruthless aliens, insanely powerful cyborgs, demons and magical creatures, while the same concept of supposed villain invincibility (Vegeta, Freeza - especially -, #17 and #18, Cell) is repeated until some sort of insane power-up is finally achieved by someone to overcome the strongest of main villain once and for all (Goku only overcomes his episodes-long inability to come even close to Freeza by undergoing a dramatic first Super Saiya-jin transformation, Gohan only overcomes Cell by losing it and going Super Saiya-jin 2).
On the whole seriousness/desperation/drama element present in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, I've always viewed it as a fundamental aspect of what made DBZ so great and fantastic (to me, personally, and to a lot of fans, presumably) and a step forward when compared to the entirety of DB, but that's just me and it depends on what each one wants to see in a show. Hardcore male fans tend to put more emphasis on the fighting choreography, on badass scenes of powering-up and major beatings, blood and guts, violence, martial arts combined with manipulation of Ki that make up for probably the most unreal and fantastic fights anime has ever seen.
DB was 70% comic and 30% serious, DBZ was more like 90% serious and 10% comic. I mean, there's REAL violence, deaths, genocide, hopeless circumstances, blood and guts, especially between the introduction of Piccolo Daimao until the end of the Cell arc, with the highest peak of seriousness and violence probably reached in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs.
However, even if you're like me, a fan of Dragonball for over two decades, in your early 30's, having watched and recorded every single episode of DB and DBZ as it originally ran back in the 80's and 90's, having followed every single step of the franchise then, possessing quite a respectable amount of Dragonball merchandise, DVDs and manga, and having watched every single episode of DBZ hundreds of times over the years almost on a daily basis to the point where you find yourself able to understand almost everything uttered by the characters in Japanese without needing subtitles, you're bound to understand that there was indeed humor and sometimes even the nonsensical randomness in DBZ that also generated a lot of laughs in DB, and sometimes they don't come in the episodes in-between major arcs, they're thrown in in the middle of the seriousness and drama.
You're not obligated to like every single aspect of Dragonball, and you're entitled to criticize some of its debatable flaws, but DBZ was about character development, seriousness, insane fighting, values, drama, desperation, hopelessness and a few instances of comic relief/randomness. The less serious arc in all of DBZ is the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas after so many years of having consistently, constantly and incessantly to put up with the pressure of delivering major plots, character backgrounds and fantastic fighting and its respective build-up. It's understandable, but that's why he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible and why throughout the Majin Buu arc you already start to see some of the lack of tension and silliness that some fans criticize in GT or DBSuper.
DBSuper is not DB, nor is it DBZ. It's being made 18 years after the last series ended, and as such it has to be seen and analyzed in a entirely different light, even taking into account the sheer passage of time; they went for a focus on exploring the comic aspect of most characters (especially Vegeta, in this episode) and we can't blame them. They're entitled to make their own decisions plot-wise. DBSuper does indeed have flaws and shortcomings, but it would be inconceivable to have it as a successful honorable direct continuation to DBZ if you went for it thinking it would be as serious and dramatic as all the arcs in DBZ were; I'm a hardcore fan of insane fighting and desperate/hopeless/dramatic/serious circumstances, but I still get hyped every single time I even think about DBSuper and I have orgasms while I'm watching each episode as it's airing in Japan, but animation-wise, and also from a point of view of fighting choreography and character development, it's nowhere near DBZ and doesn't pretend to be. The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ is 80's and 90's stuff, iconic, unforgettable, untouchable. It should be surprising that we're actually getting a follow-up full-fledged entirely new series in 2015 and we're watching it on a weekend by weekend basis, and still hard to believe. If they went down the road of creating an extremely serious, fighting-oriented series, focusing on the most serious characters (Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku) and keeping their complete degree of seriousness, a large chunk of hardcore fans would be losing it and having orgasms every day, but the series would also reach a much more limited audience, would probably be much shorter and wouldn't be as available as it has been up until now and will continue to be. It's a double-edged sword. On the other hand, you've got the fans who attach more to the comic aspects of Dragonball, and those have a higher potential to be absolutely happy with DBSuper than the first ones."
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Chiki wrote:
1 - Vegitto (about twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan, the strongest warrior in all of DBZ)
2 - Super Buu (with Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
3 - Super Buu (with SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
4 - Kid Buu
5 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (on par with Ultimate Gohan)
6 - Ultimate Gohan (on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku)
7 - Super Buu
8 - Evil Buu
9 - Majin Buu
10 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
12 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
13 - Dabura
14 - Kaioshin
Vegito is about twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku? It never happened in the manga so we don't know how strong he is.
SSJ3 Goku is above Kid Buu since he could have killed him if he really wanted to.
You might be confusing Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs fat Majin Buu, which I also addressed in my last post in this thread; he could indeed have killed him right there and then if he wanted to and ended the arc right there, but chose not to. The same can't be said about Kid Buu, though; while it could be argued that he COULD eventually defeat Kid Buu while fighting him if the Super Saiya-jin 3 stage didn't "happen" to consume so much Ki to the point of making it impractical in a long fight, since the Saiya-jin can't even sustain it for long, it can't really be said that he could have defeated Kid Buu "if he wanted to". If that were the case, he wouldn't have gone through the trouble to make an enormous and MASSIVE Genkidama to finish him off, all the time (while collecting the energy and in fact while throwing the finished ball at him) struggling desperately to see if he was going to be successful or not, building up a lot of tension.
Vegitto didn't happen in the manga? Are you perhaps mistaking Vegitto for Gogeta?
Bullza wrote:
And why not?
Because Goku was scared to fight Super Buu and said he was still too strong whereas SSJ3 Gotenks was beating him.
Goku didn't go Super Saiya-jin 3 against base Super Buu at any point, right? If he did, he'd thrash him just as easily as Ultimate Gohan did, since their respective powers are roughly the same.
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Chiki wrote:
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
He transforms right to SSJ3 and a nigh-equal battle unfolds between the two (the anime goes crazy with the filler in this battle). Goku stops for a moment and Vegeta tells him that at full power, he should be able to completely obliterate Buu. Goku says he's been trying but hasn't had the chance yet.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Chiki wrote:
I also remember a line where Goku said that he could've killed Kid Buu if he wanted to but he wanted Vegeta to have a chance against Kid Buu.
No, Base Vegito never battled Super Buu with Gohan absorbed in the manga. He went Super Saiyan straight away.
Not having gotten the chance due to being unable to gather one's Ki is quite different from "not wanting to", I think.
Ah, when I mentioned Vegitto I was referring to him in his Super Saiya-jin form, of course. Even so, base Vegitto is STILL stronger than the mightiest version of Super Buu, hence he retains the second place in the list after, actually, himself, although in his base form he's somewhat less powerful than in his Super Saiya-jin stage, making his base strength as probably not as much as double that of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan. I was referring to Super Vegitto from the start, anyway.
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Chiki wrote:
Ah, when I mentioned Vegitto I was referring to him in his Super Saiya-jin form, of course.
I thought you were talking about Base Vegito. There's zero reason to think Super Vegito is twice as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. Absolutely zero.
We know for a fact it's way above that. If Super Buu, was for example, 70% as powerful as Gohan, that would make Buu with Gohan absorbed about 1.8x more powerful than Gohan (including Piccolo and Goten and Trunks, each around 3% as powerful as Gohan).
Saying Super Vegito is only twice as powerful as Gohan indicates that Super Vegito is only a little bit more powerful than Buuhan. That's not true at all.
There is however reason to think Base Vegito is around twice as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. Base Vegito as portrayed in the anime is about as powerful as Buuhan (slightly more powerful of course, but he probably wouldn't be able to deal with some of Buu's most powerful attacks). If Gohan was a 1, Buuhan was a 1.8 and Base Vegito was 2, this would explain the facts.
You have to keep in mind that we're talking a fused warrior, and the fusion (regardless of the method, dance or Potara) does entail some freakish factors and characteristics. It could be argued that base Vegitto is about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, and I deliberately put Super Vegitto's strength only slightly above that because, due to the sheer nature of the Potara-method fusion technique the warrior's strength doesn't increase exponentially to the same insane degree as it does when compared to non-fused characters; what I'm basically trying to say here is that there's not as huge difference between base Vegitto and Super Saiya-jin Vegitto as there is between a Saiya-jin's base power level and that of his Super Saiya-jin stage(s). Super Vegitto does toy around with the strongest of Super Buu's versions as if he was nothing, he has the fight beyond totally under control, he's insanely powerful, but I wouldn't say that even in his Super Saiya-jin form he's something in the order of tens or hundreds of times stronger than Super Buu when he fights him (or Buuhan, as you choose to call him). Besides, Super Buu is EXTREMELY powerful, but "merely" absorbing powerful warriors doesn't necessarily or automatically mean you're a martial arts expert, there's more to fighting and winning a battle than sheer power; Super Buu is indeed fantastically and massively powerful, but just like Cell in his second form he appears to be unable to/inexperienced at using all the insane power he has at that point to the fullest. If he were wiser and a more skilled martial artist, and if he had time and willingness to become accustomed to his new incredible power, he'd probably give even Super Vegitto a little bit more trouble than he actually did during their fight (basically none).
To summarize, since I put Super Saiya-jin Vegitto only slightly above base Vegitto, yes, I still retain my position that Super Vegitto is just about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (as if that wasn't being INSANELY powerful enough, enough in fact to be the strongest warrior in the entirety of DBZ, and, counting absolutely all the characters in the entire Dragonball franchise, below only the most recent warriors and stages (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Golden Freeza and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta). As such, you can't really just dismiss my argument of Super Vegitto being "only" about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku as "not true at all" basing yourself too on nothing other than mere speculation, just as I'm doing and anyone else can do.
On another separate note, and just for the sake of example, a lot of fans were arguing that it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to surpass Goku in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage when lashing out at Beerus. Temporary, freak occurrences do happen when discussing the Super Saiya-jin transformations and stages and how each one of them enhances the Saiya-jin's strength, ESPECIALLY taking into account such an other-worldly technique such as Fusion. Vegitto is able to overcome everyone, including Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta, without even going beyond "mere" or "regular" Super Saiya-jin, and so is Gogeta (if you count the Movies, in this case Movie 12).
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Chiki wrote:
Super Vegitto does toy around with the strongest of Super Buu's versions as if he was nothing, he has the fight beyond totally under control, he's insanely powerful, but I wouldn't say that even in his Super Saiya-jin form he's something in the order of tens or hundreds of times stronger than Super Buu when he fights him
As such, you can't really just dismiss my argument of Super Vegitto being "only" about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku as "not true at all" basing yourself too on nothing other than mere speculation, just as I'm doing and anyone else can do.
Here is evidence. We see battles where even if one person is significantly stronger than the other, the weaker one can still perform well. For example, Cell was significantly more powerful than Goku but Goku was still able to significantly hurt him (kill him if not for Cell's regeneration). 100% Freeza (power level 120 million) did pretty well against SSJ Goku (power level 150 million) in the anime, not sure about the manga. This means that Goku is 25% more powerful than Freeza. As you said, Super Vegito vs. Buuhan was beyond totally under Vegito's control. This indicates that the gap between Buuhan and Super Vegito is much greater.
We have no way of knowing how large this gap is. An opponent three times as powerful as Buuhan (this would make Super Vegito over 5 times as powerful as SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan) could have done just as well as an opponent fifty times as powerful as Buuhan. After a certain power gap it doesn't really matter. Super Vegito could have owned Gohan and SSJ3 Goku and Buu and whatever just as easily as Beerus did, but we know for a fact that Super Vegito is much weaker than Beerus.
Because we have no way of knowing how large this gap is, it means that your view has become pure speculation and not mine.
Besides, Super Buu is EXTREMELY powerful, but "merely" absorbing powerful warriors doesn't necessarily or automatically mean you're a martial arts expert, there's more to fighting and winning a battle than sheer power;
Actually it does, because he absorbed Piccolo and Gohan. Buu inherited Piccolo's intelligence when he absorbed him, so obviously he inherited his knowledge about martial arts as well.
Hmm, Vegitto is comprised of both Goku and Vegeta, BOTH of whom "happen" to be pure Saiya-jins, martial arts experts, constantly training and fighting to surpass and overcome their limits, as well as those of everyone else's, they're masters in Ki manipulation and have been constantly perfecting their abilities through incessant fighting for years against the most powerful opponents they could find in each arc before the Majin Buu saga, many of whom were stronger than them at the time of their respective encounters, so one could argue that the resulting being of a perfect fusion between them is not only EXTREMELY powerful, it also has a complete, total and absolute mastery of all aspects of martial arts, and I still think that's just not the case with any of the versions of Super Buu, including the strongest one.
I knew you would come up with the absorption of Piccolo argument, and you're right, absorbing an extremely tactical and intelligent warrior did increase his level of sapience and knowledge (of martial arts and everything else), but he's still far too inexperienced at fighting anyone close to/on par/beyond his level, not to mention the fact that Majin Buu is a magically created creature in his origins and doesn't even probably have the same concept of "good" and "evil" as other normal, emotional beings do. He destroys everything and everyone in sight because that's what his nature is, that's what he was created for, and his level of sapience and his entire attitude - especially in his original, Kid Buu version - comes down to a complete sociopath who relies on his MASSIVE power to have huge fights with opponents enough to challenge him (only a few in the Universe, in fact), so his somewhat-upgraded versions (both in terms of power and as far as knowledge and sapience go) build up on that basis, I think he still lacks a lot of experience and wisdom EVEN after incorporating someone as intelligent as Piccolo in his system.
There really is no definitive way to put an end to this particular debate, nobody's going to come out and officially state just how stronger Super Vegitto is when compared to Super Buu, or any variation of the many fights throughout the Majin Buu arc.
My whole and main point in the previous post was that there's not as huge a difference between base Vegitto and Super Vegitto when compared to the difference there is between a non-fused base Saiya-jin and his Super Saiya-jin version.
Due to the other-wordly effects of Fusion, especially through the Potara method, it's pretty obvious that it allows the ultimately fused warrior to overcome the power limits "imposed" by his physical stage. Vegitto in his base form is obviously stronger than ANYONE else, even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, and he's even slightly stronger than that in his Super Saiya-jin form. I believe that if it wasn't for fusion, this would be almost impossible, there are limits to the power you can reach while in each form (base, Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2, etc.) and only under extremely temporary or strange circumstances can a Saiya-jin go beyond the natural limits "imposed" by each stage (Vegeta surpassing Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku without actually undergoing a transformation beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 is one of the few examples of that throughout DBZ).
On another note, it's been speculated over the years what would happen if Vegitto went beyond Super Saiya-jin and reached Super Saiya-jin 2 (both Goku and Vegeta have arguably completely mastered the stage at the point when they fuse), or even Super Saiya-jin 3 (at least one of them is capable of transforming into it, and the resulting fused warrior should too); as in, would it increase his power by insane proportions? This connects a little bit to what we're discussing. I think Vegitto as a separate entity/warrior is just so perfect and powerful that he's almost as powerful as he can get even in his base form, as in, transforming into ANY Super Saiya-jin stage doesn't increase his power by the rate it does when applied to other non-fused Saiya-jin, but that remains just an unproved theory, and it will never be proven right or wrong anyway.
Speaking of fusion, we discussed this in another thread a few days and weeks ago: it's rather obvious that they're deliberately avoiding to go down that road, but the sheer concept of a merger between Goku and Vegeta is just too appealing, and, perhaps exactly because of that, it hasn't been given enough time to explore and expand upon (Vegitto is only around for a few episodes, and Gogeta isn't even canon, both in Movie 12 and in GT). At least they did at least mention it (Goku does) in DBSuper, just as he does in BoG, so the idea is at least still in the air somewhat. I know it won't happen and it's just too far-fetched a scenario, but going through an exercise of wishful thinking, that's the concept I'd like them to bring back at some point in DBSuper, and I think no Dragonball fan can deny the appeal it has.
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Potanical Pardon wrote:
Tenshinhan trains and trains and trains all the time, same as Piccolo...so I can see them still gradually improving enough to surpass even base-form Gotenks. Tenshinhan's Tri-Beam was the only thing affecting Cell at the time and Piccolo was a Super Namekian back then. 18 could be the same now as she was during the Cell Games, but in any case, these three are relatively around the same level. She wanted to compete at the Tournament for the money even knowing Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were competing so I'm assuming she trained/improved during that ten year gap. And perhaps she continued to afterwards through to now. So yeah, I have no problem with these three fighters improving to the point that their attacks would necessitate needing evasion, as well as being stronger than a couple fused relatively inexperienced half-Saiyans who are just playing around 90% of the time in base form.
And speaking of Krillin...I'm of the opinion that even if he says that he doesn't fight any more, that he helps 18 train. My personal head cannon has always had him above Tenshinhan in ranking ever since the Saiyan Saga. Krillin got way more out of Mr. Popo's training than Tenshinhan...and obviously Yamcha and Chiaotzu. Yajirobe is probably stronger than Piccolo now, but no one will probably ever find out because he's so damn lazy - he's easily the most naturally gifted human fighter. If he actually gave a shit and tried, we all know Tenshinhan and Krillin would be left behind in one of his Senzu bean crop-dusts.
You're joking about Yajirobe being stronger than Piccolo, right? I assume you are.
Human beings are quite limited when it comes to the degree of Ki they can achieve, and in fact, I've always viewed Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha and Chaozu as freakish events, given the fact they're around Goku, Vegeta and some of the most powerful warriors in the Universe (I regard Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaozu's gains from training with Kaiou-sama as somewhat equivalent by the power-up Krillin got from the Elder Namek's power unlock during the early Freeza arc). This might be a little controversial, and part of what I'm going to say next might just have something to do with the fact I'm a hardcore fan of Tenshinhan and not really a big fan of Krillin, but I always believed - and still do - that Tenshinhan is above Krillin. He knows he just can't keep up with Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo, but he's extremely serious about being a martial artist - unlike Krillin -, he's brave enough to try and stall Cell and Super Buu (partially successful) - unlike Krillin - and he keeps on training constantly during his long periods of absence without pretty much anything else in mind other than perfecting his martial arts abilities and skills - again, unlike Krillin.
You can't even compare these exceptional human warriors to the likes of Piccolo, though. Piccolo is a Namek-sei-jin, who are, along other numerous fantastic, strange, original, exceptional and rather unusual traits, gifted warriors, and he just so happens to be one of the most martial arts inclined in his race. His entire background and history set him aside when compared to the rest of his race, he grew up on Earth and went through an almost interminable sequence of changes - splitting in two, fusing with others, training constantly, fusing again with his counterpart, etc. It's pretty impressive for a Namek-sei-jin to be able to fight toe-to-toe to someone as - at that time - insanely powerful as second-form Freeza, but in the Jinzouningen arc he goes even far beyond that and actually manages to be the strongest warrior in the good guys' team - above Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks -, reaching a level of power on par with that of #18 and #17 (who just episodes before dominated SSJ Vegeta effortlessly, and would do just the same to Goku), and slightly below Cell and #16; after that, he pretty much reached his limits in terms of power progression and was unable to keep up with the Saiya-jin and with Majin/Super/Kid Buu, which is the entire reason why he doesn't even show up in Movie 12 and Movie 13 and why he doesn't even fight in the entire Majin Buu arc other than cutting a defenseless Babidi in half; he's stuck training the kids and teaching them the Fusion technique/dance. His tier in terms of power level is much more Jinzouningen and Cell arc-like than Majin Buu arc-like, but he's nonetheless so fantastic a character that his usefulness goes beyond his immense power - hundreds of times above Tenshinhan, in fact -, he possesses a tactical strategic mind and his extremely serious and intelligent, having even incorporated and added Kami's extensive knowledge to his own, which was already above anyone else. His entire character makes his interactions relevant only when something pretty serious is going on, which was the case in episode 7. Other than that, he's stuck with a few seconds of comic gags surrounding his seriousness. These last points are the entire reason why we had to wait until as late as episode 7 of DBSuper to have Piccolo FINALLY display some of his awesome analytic abilities (not so much power, despite the fact it's enormous as well).
But make no mistake, despite the fact that no one on that boat has ANY chance against Beerus, there are enormous gaps between some of the warriors charging at him or doing nothing other than watching, despite the fact Beerus disposes of them just as easily regardless of how powerful they actually are. Piccolo can in no way be compared to the likes of Tenshinhan, he's hundreds of times stronger than the latter, but to Beerus they're all ants anyway.
If Ultimate Gohan, Majin Buu, Gotenks and Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (not to mention Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku) are rendered unconscious so effortlessly, easily and quickly, what can Piccolo, #18 and Tenshinhan possibly do?
Edit: I've actually said it at some point throughout the post twice, but putting Piccolo and Tenshinhan at the same level is almost ridiculous. And yeah, Tenshinhan did manage to stall Cell, but he didn't damage him whatsoever, the sheer force of the continuous Shin Kikoho's were enough to restrict and refrain Cell's movements, but they weren't actually hurting him in the slightest. No matter how much he gained from training with Kaiou-sama and no matter how much of a fantastic fighter he is for an Earthling, he's still leagues below the likes of Piccolo, the mere concept of comparing the two is preposterous.
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Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
imo, not giving SS3 to Vegeta is as wasteful as not giving SS3 to Goten and Trunks.
Except they've already been "given" it in the Majin Buu arc and in Movie 13, in their resulting fused form. A large chunk of fans have been fantasizing over Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 for nearly two decades, and they saw DBSuper - and especially the slight changes and additions made to the story when compared to BoG - as somewhat having the potential to finally bring it on-screen, but absolutely nothing made it a likely scenario, and episode 7 should have put the entire debate and "is Vegeta going to go Super Saiya-jin 3 against Beerus?" questions to a conclusive, decisive end, but apparently fans are STILL talking about it. Most of us knew if wouldn't happen, and it didn't happen, get over it. Even if it DID happen, the stage would/has become obsolete in no time, in actual fact in a matter of episodes, after Goku - who was miserably thrashed and rendered unconscious effortlessly with two masterfully-applied hits by Beerus at Kaiou-sama's as a Super Saiya-jin 3 himself - achieves Super Saiya-jin God, soon to be followed by Vegeta himself, not to mention the further stage(s) they BOTH achieve (incorporating the abilities and power of SSJG without actually undergoing the physical transformation, while keeping all of its benefits and none of its disadvantages, and then going even one step further by attaining Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). The whole Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta is getting pretty annoying, and I'm only speaking for myself, but I'm pretty sure almost everyone shares the same view. It's over, move on and focus on what's coming next.
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Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
btw, that shot of Vegeta having pupil-less eyes looked pretty bad. A far cry from something like this:
Spoiler:View
I'm pretty sure it was intentional.
You're pretty much referring to the most intensely dramatic moment in the whole of DBZ, and I'm not the kind of guy who likes or appreciates specifying just one instead of making entire lists. Goku's "loss" of his pupils when he finally can't take it anymore conveys in a PERFECT way the kind of rage-filled emotion he's feeling, to the point of (even someone as naturally gentle and kind as Goku) losing control over his emotional stability and balance, which can be pretty much compared to instances we've all gone through in the real world, in our own lives, of being so angry at something or someone that we feel like some outside force is forcing its way out of us and act on our "behalf", and we can anticipate that we're not going to be able to keep the beast inside for long. It's far from being the only great moment in the entirety of DB and DBZ, there are many others, and part of what makes DBZ isn't even particular, specific events, but it's definitely perfect regardless of the perspective from which you look at it (except with Kai's music or, even - much - worse, with FUNImation's Bruce Faulconer's one, of course; Shunsuke Kikuchi's background music was a fundamental aspect in what made DB and DBZ so fantastic, and the particular piece they chose for Goku's first Super Saiya-jin moment against Freeza on Namek had been used since the Saiya-jin arc, but it was like it was created specifically for this scene, as it suits it just perfectly, there's just no other way to look at it or describe it).
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Era uma cena que gostavas de ver ? lol
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Bem, ao menos isso prova que andas a ler os meus numerosos posts, pelo menos boa parte deles, o que me satisfaz.
Quando falo em "orgasmos", evidentemente é no sentido figurativo. Fico numa atmosfera, num ambiente e num estado de semi-euforia, simplesmente.
Mas vou deixar de fazer tantos posts e tão longos, eles lêm mas só os mais recentes comentam positivamente, às vezes sinto que estou a escrever demais e com demasiado detalhe e os que têm mais tempo aqui parece que ignoram de propósito.
Mas eu adoro isto.
E há vários portugueses aqui, a seguir a americanos - naturalmente - devemos ser a segunda nacionalidade com mais utilizadores a postar com frequência.
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Despite the arc in which arguably the degree of power levels from the major characters just skyrockets insanely if you compare them at its beginning with what they are at its end (Freeza saga), Gohan is throughout the entirety of DBZ the one who displays the "ability" to tap into an enormous potential which grows exponentially as he trains constantly alongside the team and faces stronger and stronger opponents. In terms of sheer potential, he's by far the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him, which makes it just more of a shame that he lacks the pure Saiya-jin's trait of needing to obsessively train, fight and develop their martial arts skills and power incessantly, because if he was and did, he'd achieve Goku's and Vegeta's feats long before they both do.
I wouldn't say he's the only one to be ABLE to get a power boost, even a relatively large one, though, in special circumstances through another method other than specifically through an incontrollable explosion of anger (temporary psychotic episode, as in, loss of control over one's actions to the point of not even remembering having performed them), which can, just for example, be seen by Vegeta surpassing Goku at the latter's strongest (which means Super Saiya-jin 3) without actually physically transform into any further stage, going beyond the natural power limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 very temporarily.
Gohan surpassed both Goku and Piccolo when he got angry as a f****** baby against Raditz, he surpassed everyone among the team except Goku against Nappa when performing the Masenko after Piccolo dies, he manages to injure second-form Freeza, which even Vegeta failed miserably to do, he achieves Super Saiya-jin Full Power by apparently skipping the in-between stages with ease and overcomes the numerous insane power-ups from Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks throughout the Cell arc, he's the only one who stands a chance to save the world from Cell by going Super Saiya-jin 2, and finally all it takes for him to once again surpass Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, most versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Dabura and perhaps Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is to sit around for a few hours doing absolutely nothing.
Gohan's enormous potential, which he can only really tap into under desperate, out-of-control circumstances during the Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, is identified by Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta as soon as the first episodes of DBZ, during the fight against Raditz (or, if you count the Movies, in Garlic Jr.'s Movie 1).
However, it's becoming rather obvious that he not only has either partially lost his ability to tap into his Ultimate form (and as a Super Saiya-jin 2 his power as an adult is below that of his teen Cell Games version, as stated by Vegeta in the early Majin Buu arc, due to shameful lack of training), and possibly going as far as losing his fighting instincts along with the ability to go Super Saiya-jin 2 altogether (he even states himself that he "MIGHT still be able to go Super Saiya-jin" in Fukkatsu no F), which paints a pretty ridiculous picture of how he's being portrayed in the stuff they've been throwing our way in recent years (2008 Special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, DBSuper), reaching its climax with the way he's rendered out of commission when having his own go at Beerus in episode 7.
Taking into account his massive potential, Gohan could arguably easily outclass both Goku and Vegeta, reach each Super Saiya-jin stage they achieve long before they do, achieve Super Saiya-jin God AND Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin long before Beerus even appears and become pretty much the strongest warrior there is in the Universe, above even the Beerus + Whis duo.
They're clearly having Gohan be quickly and easily replaced by Vegeta in terms of protagonism, after the intention to have him become the franchise's main hero after Goku in the Cell Games and after that (they even had Goku die, serving that specific purpose, and that intention can also be seen just by looking at the opening of the Majin Buu arc) amounted to a completely failed move. Gohan's actual last time to shine was when he showed up to basically thrash Super Buu, but even having acquired and reached such an insane level of power, he's outclassed in a matter of two episodes by stronger versions of Super Buu, and Goku is once again the one to put an end to the menace and threat by being the one to finish off Kid Buu. They're clearly going for Vegeta quickly overpowering him in DBSuper, matching his degree of power to his degree of protagonism accordingly. One could argue, especially the Gohan fans - and I'm not and have never been one of them - that they could at least give him some action and some decent fighting time instead of having him go from being one of the strongest fighters in the Universe from a complete nerdy weakling in a matter of a few months, though.
This thread has seen its fair share of discussion over Gohan's depiction and I've expressed my feelings towards it in the immediate aftermath of the episode's run. I sympathize with the hardcore or not-so-hardcore Gohan fans, but I really think they should prepare themselves for the fact that he's not even a major warrior anymore to consider when it comes to dealing with a serious menace - like Beerus is being portrayed in DBSuper, in contrast to his laid-backness and somewhat comic character in BoG -, and won't become relevant in the franchise, at least nowhere near what he was at some specific points in the past throughout the arcs in DBZ.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
irreality wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Gohan was the supposed to be the only character in the entire series with this feature so this is one issue many of us do have a problem with.
I don't know why people keep saying this. After all, what are SSJ transformations other than a rage boost that ends in a transformation (well... SSJ1 and SSJ2)? That means it is an ability inherent in all Saiyans to some degree. Gohan displays it more strongly/more often because he had so much latent power growing up, and such a low resting power level at first. Doesn't mean other characters don't/can't display bursts of power when angered.
Other characters may get strength from anger, but only Gohan ever attained such dramatic boosts of power by getting mad. Only Gohan could ascend beyond SSJ the way he did against Cell, because he had that latent power; only he could close such wide gaps in seconds between him and literally anyone he fought, no matter how discrepant their power levels. When Vegeta went berserk after the android killed Trunks, he didn't suddenly go SSJ2, or anywhere close. In BoG and Super, Vegeta goes beyond SSJ2, beyond SSJ3, beyond a fusion, and beyond Ultimate Gohan cause his wife got slapped.
Yeah, but Vegeta's episode was/is going to be extremely temporary, just like most of Gohan's "tantrums" in the first half of DBZ; only in the Cell Games is Gohan able to not only - once again - have a massive power-up by an explosion of anger, he's actually for the first time able to maintain that power-up on a constant basis for an extended period of time and keep some degree of control over his emotions when thrashing the Cell Juniors and Cell himself as a Super Saiya-jin 2.
Vegeta's real insane increase in power to reach the level or (close) to the leagues of Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God, Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza by the Freeza arc in DBSuper (or by Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events) will be after he becomes a Super Saiya-jin God, then incorporates the abilities and power of the stage - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then going one step further just like Goku and achieving/developing the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God stage, effectively going from his Majin Buu arc-Super Saiya-jin 2 version to one of the strongest warriors in the Universe once again, "skipping" Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan and all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu.
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irreality wrote:
He doesn't go beyond SSJ3 -- he is still SSJ2. He doesn't get a new transformation out of it.
He doesn't undergo an actual physical transformation other than something he's more than used to (Super Saiya-jin 2); that's why the fact that he still manages to overcome Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku in power should be seen as a very temporary, freakish occurrence (hence the word "mutation" to describe it, present in the episode's title).
That begs the question: are there power limits "imposed" to how strong a Saiya-jin can get in each of the Super Saiya-jin stages or not? Can, in theory, a non-fused Super Saiya-jin be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 2, or a non-fused Super Saiya-jin 2 be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 3? That open a whole can of worms when describing how the entire process of the Super Saiya-jin transformations and stages actually work.
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irreality wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
That begs the question: are there power limits "imposed" to how strong a Saiya-jin can get in each of the Super Saiya-jin stages or not? Can, in theory, a non-fused Super Saiya-jin be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 2, or a non-fused Super Saiya-jin 2 be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 3?
I don't see why not, personally.
You (or I) will never be proven right or wrong on any theory about that. What IS rather obvious is that the Fusion technique results in such otherwordly, unique features that it allows a fused Saiya-jin (Vegitto) in his Super Saiya-jin form to go FAR beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 (Vegeta) or even Super Saiya-jin 3 (Goku).
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
irreality wrote:
Other characters may get strength from anger, but only Gohan ever attained such dramatic boosts of power by getting mad. Only Gohan could ascend beyond SSJ the way he did against Cell, because he had that latent power; only he could close such wide gaps in seconds between him and literally anyone he fought, no matter how discrepant their power levels. When Vegeta went berserk after the android killed Trunks, he didn't suddenly go SSJ2, or anywhere close. In BoG and Super, Vegeta goes beyond SSJ2, beyond SSJ3, beyond a fusion, and beyond Ultimate Gohan cause his wife got slapped.
He doesn't go beyond SSJ3 -- he is still SSJ2. He doesn't get a new transformation out of it. He isn't going to "close the gap" between him and Beerus -- Beerus will be startled maybe for one hit, and that is it. It is a boost, but people are overemphasizing how dramatic it is. It almost feels like people are looking for things that could in theory maybe be a plot hole even though they aren't. I'm not sure if they are bothered by Vegeta having a power surge for once, or by Vegeta having strong emotions other than arrogance for once.
Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because only Gohan ever did something doesn't mean it is a plot hole for someone else to be able to do it later.
I didn't mean he went beyond SSJ3. I meant his powers, during his outburst, exceeded that of the only known SSJ3s in the DBverse, as well as a character shown to be much stronger than one of them.
And I'm not saying this is a plot hole either; I'm just stating that Gohan was the only one shown to have this ability in the past (to this extent, anyways). There's that scene in the Cell Games where Vegeta flares up with anger and realizes how important Trunks is to him, but he doesn't receive any sort of boost. The whole thing feels odd, and it takes away from one of Gohan's most unique qualities, imo. Simply put, I don't like it.
The fanboy in me would have preferred it so much more if, instead of Bulma, Videl was slapped AFTER Gohan found out she was pregnant, with no provocation besides pleading to Beerus to stop. This would prompt the greatest rage boost ever seen in Gohan, leading to him beating the living **** out of Beerus for a few seconds before powering down. Not only would this have been an amazing throwback in a movie created over a decade after the series ended, but it'd indicate that Gohan never capped out, and could achieve a power relative to a god on his own.
The scenario you describe would make for a pretty dramatic turn of events; I mean, a husband who loves his wife, having just found out she's pregnant with their baby, she gets slapped for doing nothing special by a guy who shows up to disrupt a peaceful party with friends and family and just KO'd every single one with his arrogance + insanely extreme power combo; yeah, that would make Gohan fly off the handle, along the lines of most of Gohan's rage "tantrums" during the first half of DBZ, and considering his potential, which is arguably greater than that of Vegeta, he would get an insane power boost, although temporary.
However, that would only happen IF they didn't very deliberately decided to make Gohan a tertiary character and an obsolete warrior, basically replacing him for Vegeta both in terms of protagonism AND in terms of power (accordingly matching one to each other, in the case of Vegeta, for the duration and remainder of Super - by Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events, Vegeta is in the leagues of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Beerus and Whis, while Gohan isn't even f****** sure if he can go Super Saiya-jin anymore, and this might just be the perfect example of the state of affairs regarding Gohan's depiction and his level of protagonism and power, alongside his next-to-ridiculous rendering out of commission when having his go at Beerus himself in episode 7 of DBSuper).
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We really can't and shouldn't compare GT to DBSuper. GT was made in a rush, and while some of the characters and villains had some potential to them, there really is nothing to latch onto in order to deem it a worthy successor of DBZ; it took on the worst elements from the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already pretty much - and understandably - running out of ideas (hence some of the silliness present in the saga) and none of the factors that made the later stages of DBZ and the entirety of DBZ so fantastic. After being almost "forced" to continue keeping up with new stories, characters, transformations and events with the same quality as always on a constant basis for over a decade, Toriyama wanted to put a quick end to DBZ - hence the unsatisfactory ending to it with those last 3 episodes -, and didn't want anything do to with GT. It could even be argued that GT was made for commercial purposes more than anything, at Dragonball's peak (or one of the peaks) of popularity in terms of TV series/franchise, with a "striking while the iron's hot" mentality behind it.
DBSuper, on the other hand, features entirely new characters and events placed just at the right time (exploring the 10 year gap in-between the defeat of Kid Buu and the last 3 episodes of DBZ), retelling the stories of the two great and large theatrical features they threw our way in pretty much the exact same circumstances, which after all this time might be seen as having been just the right way to approach the series, but indicative that at the time they made BoG in 2013 and Fukkatsu no F in 2015 they didn't, at the time, intend on generating an entirely new full-fledged TV series. After 11 years of inactivity, Toriyama has now fresh ideas in his creative process and we can look at the 2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as the slow but steady build-up for the real bomb: an entirely new series.
I don't see how DBSuper could be Dragonball's "last hope", as you put it, in terms of producing TV series for the franchise. Dragonball is immortal, it will never end and its potential is limitless. Even if they screwed up big time with it, they could always wait for a while, generate a new f****** fantastic Special or Movie just like BoG and the hype would reach the previous degrees in a flash.
It's becoming more and more obvious, as the series' episodes progress, that the entire retelling of BoG will take about 12 episodes, as previously estimated, after which we'll most likely get about two smoother episodes leading to the retelling of Fukkatsu no F, which should also be done within a matter of about 12 episodes, so one could argue and estimate that by episode 24/26 we should be moving on to the arc within DBSuper which really features entirely new, previous unseen characters, villains and events, in the exploration of the 6th Universe. Up until now, there's really no official and/or final information on whether or not they'll produce more episodes AFTER the 6th Universe arc still under the umbrella of DBSuper, but assuming they don't, I'd say it will be the last arc within the series, but also the longer one, so the entire thing will probably be comprised of far less than 100 episodes, but anyway, it's just like I said in previous paragraphs, after that there's always potential to tap onto and continue the story, either before and/or after the 10 year gap we've been exploring recently. No matter what road they choose to go down, a Dragonball TV series, or indeed any Special or Movie or anything related to the franchise will only fail if it's done really hastily, but even in that case the potential for complete and full recovery in a matter of years or even months is there and will always be. That's how I look at it.
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rereboy wrote:
No one thought or knew about SSJ2 in the Cell games. The transformation is even only named in the Buu saga. What Goku wanted was for Gohan to go all out and access his potential, and he estimated that, if he did, he would be able to defeat Cell, and he was right because, even within SSJ2, Gohan had to achieve a power boost during the beam struggle to defeat Cell. It was never about Gohan unlocking an extra transformation, it was all about Gohan accessing his power which Goku figured was their best hope to defeat Cell. Gohan accessing an extra transformation, was just that, him accessing an extra transformation, but the key to his win, and what Goku hoped for, were his characteristics power boosts once he accessed them. SSJ2 is not part of Gohan's power boosts.
I agree, Goku, who was the one behind the entire strategy of having Gohan, first of all, achieve Super Saiya-jin, then mastering all aspects of it (Super Saiya-jin Full Power), then have one of his explosions of anger triggering an insane increase of power exponentially, which Goku calculated to be enough to beat Cell (other than that, nobody had the power or potential to save the world from Cell), did know that Gohan would receive a massive power up if he was pushed to his emotional limits just like he did throughout the first half of DBZ, but he didn't know it would amount to an actual physical transformation into another, further Super Saiya-jin stage. One could argue whether it was "necessary" for Gohan to undergo a transformation into Super Saiya-jin 2, if it was the fact that he reached that stage that gave him the power he had, or if he would be powerful enough to overcome Cell even if he didn't physically transform into Super Saiya-jin 2, though.
The thing about Super Saiya-jin 2 is that it's the only stage which we've seen all the Saiya-jins achieve through different methods ("regular" Super Saiya-jin is typically achieved by an explosion of anger - Goku over Freeza killing Krillin, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his frustration, Bardock over his hatred towards Freeza and Chilled, Gohan over his desire to stop being a crybaby -, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai are achieved through intensive training, Super Saiya-jin Full Power is achieved through a complete mastery of all aspects of the SSJ stage, and Super Saiya-jin 3 is achieved through intensive training by an martial arts/energy or Ki-wise manipulation exceptionally expert gifted Saiya-jin, while Super Saiya-jin 2 is, in the case of teen Gohan at the Cell Games, achieved through an explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta both achieved it at some point during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc through intense training).
It's also the TRUE SSJ stage that really goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin", which is an expression used numerous times throughout the Cell arc by Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks. I've always viewed the "regular" Super Saiya-jin stage as having four ramifications within it (normal Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power), but those four, while going beyond the first, "regular" SSJ stage, are still under the umbrella of the entire first Super Saiya-jin stage; the transformation that really goes beyond the first one (and all of its four ramifications) is Super Saiya-jin 2 (hence the numbering, in fact).
irreality wrote:
His ability to access strength through emotion is what made it so he could become SSJ2 before anyone else
rereboy wrote:
So? Vegeta and Goku unlocked SSJ2 just by training so, obviously, Gohan's power boosts and emotion aren't an essential part of the transformation. Gohan got his characteristic power boosts plus managed to unlock an extra transformation in the Cell games thanks to his rage and sudden increase in power. They are different things.
It could be postulated or theorized that he "happened" to be at a point in terms of power (Super Saiya-jin Full Power) in which, in case he got out-of-control and had one of his psychotic rage tantrums, he'd achieve a level of power far beyond what Goku, Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks and Cell had at that time. I'm leaning more towards the fact that this was the one and only time in which Gohan's numerous "tantrums" resulted in an actual physical, further transformation. It's just normal he was the first one to reach the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, before he did it he was at the same level as Goku was and slightly above Vegeta and Trunks, all of whom lack Gohan's ability to get enormous power boosts through an explosion of anger.
rereboy wrote:
No, the whole point was that Gohan was the only one with the potential power to defeat Cell and that he would he be able to do it if he accessed his potential power, just like he did many times before, only in a more decisive way to defeat Cell for good. The point was never about SSJ2 or that SSj2 was somehow special or linked to Gohan. You are confusing the two things.
I agree, like I said in the first paragraph nobody even knew there was such a thing as a Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation. Goku merely calculated that with the level of power Gohan had when he showed up at the Cell Games, he'd be powerful enough to go beyond even Cell if he happened to be pushed to his emotional limits; Goku wasn't counting on an actual physical transformation into a further Super Saiya-jin stage, he was just thinking about sheer power and not transformations. Goku and Vegeta do realize at some point, during the process of reaching SSJ2 themselves during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, that the stage is an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation which can in theory be achieved by anyone, and that Gohan was merely the first one to reach it given the circumstances. The stage which teen Gohan reaches after Cell blows #16's head away wasn't supposed or thought to be an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation at the time by anyone, even after witnessing it and while seeing SSJ2 Gohan in action, and it's not even named and identified by the viewers as a separate, specific stage which is not achievable by Gohan only until the Majin Buu arc. Initially, it was conceived to be a Gohan-thing only, and the creators were probably not even sure whether or not it was an actual further, specific SSJ transformation themselves, they only decided it was an actual separate and very clearly identifiable Super Saiya-jin stage in the Majin Buu arc, by having Goku and Vegeta reach it, use it and even refer very specifically to it, thus making it clear it wasn't a Gohan-thing only, it was a stage which could in theory be reached by any Saiya-jin, given the right set of circumstances.
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rereboy wrote:
No one thought or knew about SSJ2 in the Cell games. The transformation is even only named in the Buu saga. What Goku wanted was for Gohan to go all out and access his potential, and he estimated that, if he did, he would be able to defeat Cell, and he was right because, even within SSJ2, Gohan had to achieve a power boost during the beam struggle to defeat Cell. It was never about Gohan unlocking an extra transformation, it was all about Gohan accessing his power which Goku figured was their best hope to defeat Cell. Gohan accessing an extra transformation, was just that, him accessing an extra transformation, but the key to his win, and what Goku hoped for, were his characteristics power boosts once he accessed them. SSJ2 is not part of Gohan's power boosts.
I agree, Goku, who was the one behind the entire strategy of having Gohan, first of all, achieve Super Saiya-jin, then mastering all aspects of it (Super Saiya-jin Full Power), then have one of his explosions of anger triggering an insane increase of power exponentially, which Goku calculated to be enough to beat Cell (other than that, nobody had the power or potential to save the world from Cell), did know that Gohan would receive a massive power up if he was pushed to his emotional limits just like he did throughout the first half of DBZ, but he didn't know it would amount to an actual physical transformation into another, further Super Saiya-jin stage. One could argue whether it was "necessary" for Gohan to undergo a transformation into Super Saiya-jin 2, if it was the fact that he reached that stage that gave him the power he had, or if he would be powerful enough to overcome Cell even if he didn't physically transform into Super Saiya-jin 2, though.
The thing about Super Saiya-jin 2 is that it's the only stage which we've seen all the Saiya-jins achieve through different methods ("regular" Super Saiya-jin is typically achieved by an explosion of anger - Goku over Freeza killing Krillin, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his frustration, Bardock over his hatred towards Freeza and Chilled, Gohan over his desire to stop being a crybaby -, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai are achieved through intensive training, Super Saiya-jin Full Power is achieved through a complete mastery of all aspects of the SSJ stage, and Super Saiya-jin 3 is achieved through intensive training by an martial arts/energy or Ki-wise manipulation exceptionally expert gifted Saiya-jin, while Super Saiya-jin 2 is, in the case of teen Gohan at the Cell Games, achieved through an explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta both achieved it at some point during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc through intense training).
It's also the TRUE SSJ stage that really goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin", which is an expression used numerous times throughout the Cell arc by Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks. I've always viewed the "regular" Super Saiya-jin stage as having four ramifications within it (normal Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power), but those four, while going beyond the first, "regular" SSJ stage, are still under the umbrella of the entire first Super Saiya-jin stage; the transformation that really goes beyond the first one (and all of its four ramifications) is Super Saiya-jin 2 (hence the numbering, in fact).
irreality wrote:
His ability to access strength through emotion is what made it so he could become SSJ2 before anyone else
rereboy wrote:
So? Vegeta and Goku unlocked SSJ2 just by training so, obviously, Gohan's power boosts and emotion aren't an essential part of the transformation. Gohan got his characteristic power boosts plus managed to unlock an extra transformation in the Cell games thanks to his rage and sudden increase in power. They are different things.
It could be postulated or theorized that he "happened" to be at a point in terms of power (Super Saiya-jin Full Power) in which, in case he got out-of-control and had one of his psychotic rage tantrums, he'd achieve a level of power far beyond what Goku, Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks and Cell had at that time. I'm leaning more towards the fact that this was the one and only time in which Gohan's numerous "tantrums" resulted in an actual physical, further transformation. It's just normal he was the first one to reach the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, before he did it he was at the same level as Goku was and slightly above Vegeta and Trunks, all of whom lack Gohan's ability to get enormous power boosts through an explosion of anger.
rereboy wrote:
No, the whole point was that Gohan was the only one with the potential power to defeat Cell and that he would he be able to do it if he accessed his potential power, just like he did many times before, only in a more decisive way to defeat Cell for good. The point was never about SSJ2 or that SSj2 was somehow special or linked to Gohan. You are confusing the two things.
I agree, like I said in the first paragraph nobody even knew there was such a thing as a Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation. Goku merely calculated that with the level of power Gohan had when he showed up at the Cell Games, he'd be powerful enough to go beyond even Cell if he happened to be pushed to his emotional limits; Goku wasn't counting on an actual physical transformation into a further Super Saiya-jin stage, he was just thinking about sheer power and not transformations. Goku and Vegeta do realize at some point, during the process of reaching SSJ2 themselves during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, that the stage is an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation which can in theory be achieved by anyone, and that Gohan was merely the first one to reach it given the circumstances. The stage which teen Gohan reaches after Cell blows #16's head away wasn't supposed or thought to be an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation at the time by anyone, even after witnessing it and while seeing SSJ2 Gohan in action, and it's not even named and identified by the viewers as a separate, specific stage which is not achievable by Gohan only until the Majin Buu arc. Initially, it was conceived to be a Gohan-thing only, and the creators were probably not even sure whether or not it was an actual further, specific SSJ transformation themselves, they only decided it was an actual separate and very clearly identifiable Super Saiya-jin stage in the Majin Buu arc, by having Goku and Vegeta reach it, use it and even refer very specifically to it, thus making it clear it wasn't a Gohan-thing only, it was a stage which could in theory be reached by any Saiya-jin, given the right set of circumstances.
irreality wrote:
SSJ is not "totally different," anyway. It is pretty much the exact situation described, sans golden hair. The transformation helps stabilize the increase in power from emotions and make it long term. But it is the ability to access hidden power through emotions that *causes* the transformation in the first place. Without that ability, the transformation is impossible -- only having higher levels of power is not sufficient, which is why it was so hard for Vegeta to transform the first time, since he was so against emotional growth. until recently.
Yes, the way the first, "regular" Super Saiya-jin form is achieved is through an explosion of anger, or some other emotion within the range of rage, desperation or frustration, to extreme degrees. That's exactly why Vegeta takes so much time to reach it. It's clearly stated in DBZ that the "requirements" to achieve Super Saiya-jin include a fair enough amount of power in the Saiya-jin's base form (although the event is non-canon, the fact that Bardock achieved it while having a power level close to 10.000 would mean that, power level-wise, that figure is enough for a Saiya-jin to go SSJ, which means King Vegeta, just for example, would also be able to reach it if he was angry or desperate enough), a "pure" heart (in Vegeta's case, purely evil), and the final trigger, without which the transformation is just impossible, which is being pushed to one's emotional limits (in Vegeta's case, and just for example' sake, his desperation upon realizing he's no match for Freeza in episode 85, to the point of crying over it, is not enough of a catalyst, he loses his will to fight altogether); Goku came pretty close emotionally when he was being drowned by Freeza in episode 91, but it took his best friend getting killed mercilessly and brutally before his own eyes by his nemesis to go emotionally berserk, although he had since long before reached a level of power more than enough to go SSJ under the right set of circumstances. All Saiya-jins and half-Saiya-jins are so powerful when they each reach Super Saiya-jin for the first time that it seems pretty inevitable and just a matter of time - the right circumstances, an explosion of anger - to reach the stage. In Vegeta's case, he just became completely furious over his frustration, Bardock taps more into extreme desperation and anger/hatred, Mirai no Trunks loses his shit upon seeing Gohan dead in Special 2, and Gohan finally turns Super Saiya-jin out of a "respectful" of anger at himself and at the circumstances, going as far as asking his father to throw everything at him as if he wanted to kill him. These transformations were all made possible by the right set of circumstances, and would be impossible if there wasn't the element or factor of extreme emotional distress, especially anger and desperation (and by "extreme" I really do mean extreme, simply being sort of pissed off won't do it, they need to go next-to-berserk at an emotional level).
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SSJGBGoku wrote:
I am too hoping that they change the OP and ED (might) for the universe 6 and FnF saga both.
They're probably gonna go the way of Kai and throw different parts of animation for the opening and ending sequences, each fitting the arc that's running. The first "round" of Kai from 2009 to 2011, covering everything from the Saiya-jin arc to the Cell Games, had a total of four different sequences in the second half of the opening (one for the Saiya-jin arc, one for the Freeza arc, one for the Jinzouningen arc and one for the Cell arc), while keeping the opening theme always the same; in the second round they went for a complete renewal, with an unchanged animation sequence and new opening and closing themes.
No matter how long DBSuper is going to run for, I'd think we'll get slight changes in the sequence of images seen in the opening for the Beerus arc, the Freeza arc and the 6th Universe arc, but they could also keep the opening exactly as it is throughout the entirety of the series. We do have bits and parts of the Freeza arc (the soldiers Goku and Vegeta are seen fighting, with Freeza's army typical armors) and the 6th Universe arc (Champa and his attendant) in the opening we've already seen. We really will have to see. One thing they will obviously not touch is the themes, though, and thank goodness for that, because they're just f****** fantastic, especially the opening one.
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
And he actually goes as far as to say pretty much the same exact thing Freeza says to Vegeta in episode 78 of DBZ, something along the lines of "you're just as foolish as your father was", making the already existent similarities between Beerus and Freeza - which is something at least I've posted about at least once in the last weeks, but I think other fans did as well - grow one step further.
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Hey,
Já ando para te fazer esta pergunta há algum tempo, mas só agora me deu para te escrever mesmo: tu gostas dos meus posts compridos e detalhados, e às vezes repetitivos, aqui no Kanzenshuu? Às vezes dá-me a sensação de que os membros mais antigos me ignoram de propósito por ser relativamente novo no forum e ao mesmo tempo "dar ares" de arrogante ou sabe-tudo, mas pode ser só impressão minha. Não consigo nem quero escrever de outra forma, seja na forma seja no conteúdo.
Já agora, és de onde?
Não achas interessante que, evidentemente a seguir a americanos, aparentemente sejam de Portugal os membros mais activos no forum? Somos pelo menos uns 4 ou 5 a postar com maior ou menor regularidade e frequência.
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
And he actually goes as far as to say pretty much the same exact thing Freeza says to Vegeta in episode 78 of DBZ, something along the lines of "you're just as foolish as your father was", making the already existent similarities between Beerus and Freeza - which is something at least I've posted about at least once in the last weeks, but I think other fans did as well - grow one step further.
This was pretty awesome reference, like that they added it! Super is making BoG looking better and better. I am even glad (I guess) that they went with it after all. BoG really lacked all this neat stuff, which they added here.
Yeah, from certain perspectives DBSuper is obviously superior to BoG (storytelling-wise being one of them, which is just natural, given the sheer fact that you can't properly develop a solid story in a theatrical feature like BoG or Fukkatsu no F, or any of the other 13 Movies, due to the typical time restraints), we get more content, more character background and development, more fighting, more of everything, but on the other hand the animation is, also obviously and also understandably, weaker.
It still is (and will probably always remain) debatable whether retelling the events of BoG (and presumably Fukkatsu no F) so closely in DBSuper (sometimes the characters say the exact same words using the same exact expressions) was a better decision than changing the whole thing dramatically, but Toriyama basically just thought "well, since we're getting a new full-fledged TV series, then this is the perfect opportunity to tell the stories of BoG and Fukkatsu no F exactly as I originally intended, in the first episodes and arcs to get it out of the way as soon as possible, since I couldn't do it in the movies to lack of time and the need to cut some stuff out". They are, however, throwing some minor changes and additions here and there, but overall they're still keeping the sequence of events and circumstances pretty much the same. It's the minor details they've added that catch our eye immediately, and we've gotten a bunch of them in every single episode.
It could be argued whether the fighting choreography in episode 7 was superior to that of BoG (everyone vs Beerus), but I personally have to admit that, although everyone is KO'd extremely fast in BoG, I still prefer the movie's version of it, even though we get less fighting time, simply because the way Beerus renders especially Piccolo unconscious was just fantastic (two apparently simple but masterfully-applied pressure-point attacks to the body with a f****** chopstick, that's just insane, and that's Piccolo we're talking about, someone who far exceeds full-power Freeza or a Super Saiya-jin in power); it might be seen as just "too quick", but it's actually the fact that it's so easy and so quick for Beerus to KO even extremely powerful warriors without any effort whatsoever that makes it pretty obvious he's far beyond anything they've encountered before.
One thing I'm giving DBSuper the advantage when compared to BoG is the much darker light in which Beerus is being portrayed. In the movie, he's laid-back and even comic, in DBSuper he's coming across almost as a full-fledged sadistic villain, something which reached its climax in the way he humiliates Vegeta and his father, mercilessly thrashes Majin Buu and renders Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku unconscious in a brutal way seconds after he coldly approaches him and drops that last line at him; regardless of the animation aspect of the episode of SSJ3 vs Beerus in Kaiou-sama's planet - which isn't as awful as we initially thought, everyone just went into too much detail, analyzing everything frame by frame, because watching the episode from beginning to end it doesn't really look THAT horribly animated -, just the seconds it takes between Beerus starting to approach Goku to finally attack him and Goku being sent to the ground unconscious is one of the most brutal KO's seen in the entire history of Dragonball. It, along with the other instances I referred to, was presented in a much more dramatic and serious light when compared to BoG. In the movie we didn't get to see Piccolo starting to panic or Gohan saying "it appears we're up against a tremendous enemy this time" in a very serious way, these are fundamental things when it comes to the drama/desperation present throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs of DBZ, and they somewhat recovered it in episode 7 in a certain way. When Piccolo starts making comments on how horrifyingly powerful a new opponent is, that's when you know things are getting pretty serious and out of control.
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Noah wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
I hope Vegeta to be the one who will kill Beerus, not in RoF Arc probably later, it would be pretty awesome
I bet everything I have Beerus will never be killed (at least not as a villain who absolutely needs to be removed as a menace, which also won't happen). Beerus is indeed being portrayed in a much darker/more dramatic/more serious light when compared to BoG, like I wrote in my previous post, but he's not a full-fledged maniacal genocidal villain like Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu (he probably doesn't even have the same concept of "evil" or "good" as other normal, regular emotional beings do). He's got just too much potential to be killed, especially by Vegeta or any other warrior belonging to the team "good guys", and he'll probably be gradually accepted as somewhat part of the team after his fight with Super Saiya-jin God Goku and especially after the Freeza arc, something resembling the very gradual and incremental process of Piccolo and Vegeta going from psychotic genocidal maniacal evil villains to full-fledged good guys seen in DBZ (in Tenshinhan's case, all it takes is a few advices from Muten Roshi and one arc, Piccolo is done with the process and all but loses all traits of evil inside of him within one or two arcs, and Vegeta completes the whole process by the early/mid Majin Buu arc).
Beerus may be sadistically thrashing and humiliating everyone, he may destroy entire planets beyond his duties at his whims, he might enjoy the sight of planets blowing up (the ones he actually caused to blow up intentionally, just like Freeza), but he'll never have a serious, specific agenda to rule the planet (like Piccolo Daimao and his son/reincarnation), rule the Universe and attain immortality (like Vegeta in his early days and Freeza), kill Goku and exterminate Earth and every one of its inhabitants (like Cell) or just destroy everyone and everything in sight (like Kid Buu), hence there'll never be the NEED to kill him. Good guys (like Beerus) should not and are not killed by good guys (like Vegeta), that doesn't make sense and it goes against everything seen in Dragonball before in terms of the killing trends.
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Vou-te confessar uma coisa. Eu tenho uma certa obsessão - visível, acho eu - em ser o mais detalhado e aprofundado possível nos meus posts, daí o tamanho de cada um, mas também sou relativamente obsessivo na "necessidade" que tenho de que todos me leiam, e sei que a maioria o faz e com atenção, mas provavelmente por raramente ter a certeza absoluta disso porque raramente me citam, acabo por escrever posts que resultam em repetições exaustivas de opiniões que já tinha manifestado até mais do que uma vez. Quanto mais vezes escrever o mesmo conceito e a mesma perspectiva sobre um determinado assunto em particular, maiores as hipóteses de que todos o leiam, mas também tenho a noção de que os meus textos nunca vão ser lidos na íntegra por todos, mas já me dava por satisfeito se fossem lidos na íntegra por (como mero exemplo) utilizadores que postam frequentemente como tu.
Eu também não leio tudo sobre assuntos que não me interessam tanto, daí restringir e limitar os meus posts a apenas algumas threads específicas. Mas quando o assunto me interessa e quando escrevi um ou vários posts sobre um assunto a detalhar uma ou várias ideias específicas, sinto mesmo necessidade de que todos leiam tudo na íntegra, mas sei que isso nem sempre acontece e também não tenho maneira de saber - chegar ao ponto de perguntar seria ridículo.
Sim, são mais do que 4 ou 5 membros, mas dos que vejo a postar com bastante ou alguma frequência somos 4 ou 5. Também me surpreende que tanto eu como tu como um outro português tenhamos um nível de inglês tão elevado, semelhante ou equivalente ao de um inglês ou americano. Devíamos ter orgulho nesse aspecto em particular e também na quantidade e na qualidade da nossa participação no Kanzenshuu, não achas?
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
It would be pretty weird at this point to dive into Universe 6 with Super Saiyan God still being teased in the opening. I think it's pretty likely that we'll get a combination of Kai updates for the OP and ED. The OP will likely receive tweaked segments that better reflect the events going on in the arc, similar to Dragon Soul in Kai 1.0, The ED animation and songs will probably just be replaced entirely every cour, like with Kai 2,0.
Exactly. The first "round" of Kai from 2009 to 2011 had a total of 4 different pieces of animation during the second half of the opening (one for the Saiya-jin arc, one for the Freeza arc, one for the Jinzouningen arc and one for the Cell arc), while keeping the first half of the opening exactly the same throughout the series, also with the same theme. I'd think DBSuper is going to do exactly the same, matching parts of the animation within the opening to fit the arc that's running at the time, even though we already get hints at the Freeza arc (Vegeta and Goku fighting Freeza's army-armored soldiers) and the 6th Universe arc (the appearance of Champa and his attendant alongside Beerus and Whis).
One thing which will definitely change is the image shown in the background when the episode's title shows up - we're getting the image of Beerus at this point, and I assume we'll get Freeza's and then Champa's or that of whoever the major antagonist/villain of the 6th Universe arc will be.
Do you guys think DBSuper is going to run BEYOND the 6th Universe arc?
All of this time we've been discussing it as if there were only going to be three arcs within the TV series, as that's the only official information we have, but that doesn't mean they won't extend it and have further arcs beyond the major third one. If DBSuper stops at a total of 3 arcs it not only faintly reminds me of GT (also 3 major arcs), it's also impossible to make it able to stretch to anything beyond 50 episodes or something around that number, unless the 6th Universe arc turns out to be much longer than the other ones. We can estimate that the Beerus arc will be done within a total of 12/14 episodes, and the Freeza arc as well, with two or three episodes in-between, so it's likely the 6th Universe arc will begin by episode 28/30 at the latest, making it pretty hard to stretch DBSuper to something around 100 episodes (if there's no other major arc after the 6th Universe one, it would need to be about 70 episodes-long, which seems too much of a far-fetched scenario to me, that kind of episode numbers was typical only of DBZ's major arcs from two decades ago).
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Beerus-sama wrote:
I just hope that by the time of FnF Vegeta's fear for Beerus would be gone...
Noah wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
I hope Vegeta to be the one who will kill Beerus, not in RoF Arc probably later, it would be pretty awesome
I wouldn't like my second favorite character to kill my favorite character :cry:
At least you got to go through the experience of having them fighting each other, with the resulting mixed feelings. Despite numerous threats and close calls, my two favorite characters in the entirety of the Dragonball franchise - Vegeta and Piccolo - NEVER actually landed a single hit on each other (not counting the small fight Vegeta has with the image(s) projected by Super Buu inside his body, which is NOT Piccolo, or Piccolo grabbing Vegeta by his f****** hair through the hair in Movie 8, which is non-canon). Vegeta quickly took Piccolo's exact place as Goku's not-so-evil-but-previously-villain rival in DBZ, and the interactions between these two fantastically developed proud warriors builds up so much tension that one would think it'd be inevitable for them to eventually fight each other (Piccolo does threaten Vegeta that he's going to be next after he takes care of Freeza in episode 81, and they come close to start a fight after arguments in episodes 123 - broken by Goku himself - and 145), but they actually never did.
Beerus not only has a decades-long connection with Vegeta, he has a slightly tweaked version of the leverage Freeza has over him, and they DO fight just minutes after Vegeta does everything he can to avoid it (whether it's an awkward bingo dance or acting as a chef, that's going pretty far for someone as serious and proud as Vegeta).
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
At least you got to go through the experience of having them fighting each other, with the resulting mixed feelings. Despite numerous threats and close calls, my two favorite characters in the entirety of the Dragonball franchise - Vegeta and Piccolo - NEVER actually landed a single hit on each other (not counting the small fight Vegeta has with the image(s) projected by Super Buu inside his body, which is NOT Piccolo, or Piccolo grabbing Vegeta by his f****** hair through the hair in Movie 8, which is non-canon). Vegeta quickly took Piccolo's exact place as Goku's not-so-evil-but-previously-villain rival in DBZ, and the interactions between these two fantastically developed proud warriors builds up so much tension that one would think it'd be inevitable for them to eventually fight each other (Piccolo does threaten Vegeta that he's going to be next after he takes care of Freeza in episode 81, and they come close to start a fight after arguments in episodes 123 - broken by Goku himself - and 145), but they actually never did.
Beerus not only has a decades-long connection with Vegeta, he has a slightly tweaked version of the leverage Freeza has over him, and they DO fight just minutes after Vegeta does everything he can to avoid it (whether it's an awkward bingo dance or acting as a chef, that's going pretty far for someone as serious and proud as Vegeta).
I would love for Piccolo to fight Vegeta, or for Vegeta to finally fight Beerus. These fights should be settled once and for all. By the way, considering how much I liked both Tenshinhan and Yamcha, the fight between them was one of my favorite ones. I just like to see rivals fighting in this series.
On that note, Tenshinhan comes in third place right after Vegeta and Piccolo in my personal list of favorite all-time Dragonball characters. You can definitely see a pattern there: serious, proud warriors who were at first presented as ruthless and evil (by putting Piccolo I'm deliberately refraining from including his father Piccolo Daimao in the list, as Piccolo is pretty much, more than a son, the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, and the main reasons for me having so much respect and deep feelings for Piccolo dates back to his evil days where he acted pretty much the same way Piccolo Daimao did - my kanji says it all, I think).
Tenshinhan being so high in my list might explain why I've always regarded him as being the strongest Earthling there is, above Krillin, arguing that he actually keeps training on a constant basis, unlike Krillin, he puts martial arts above everything else and takes it seriously, unlike Krillin, has no distractions, unlike Krillin, he manages to stall Cell in a badass unexpected intervention, unlike Krillin, and underwent the same type of power development as Krillin did - Krillin got his power multiplied by the Namek Elder, Tenshinhan got a lot from his training at Kaiou-sama's planet. Simply being Goku's best friend and much more of a protagonist throughout DBZ than Tenshinhan, who has long periods of hermit-like absence, doesn't automatically make Krillin the strongest.
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Noah wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Do you guys think DBSuper is going to run BEYOND the 6th Universe arc?
I hope not, don't really want to see a SSGSS Rainbow bullsh*t or something, I actually hope that SSGSS is the last transformation we ever see
Well, if we go through the entirety of DBZ ever since we first saw a Super Saiya-jin transformation, there are numerous SSJ stages, and after so many years of inactivity, all of a sudden, in a matter of two years we got introduced to THREE new Super Saiya-jin stages (Super Saiya-jin God, Saiya-jin beyond God - a Saiya-jin who incorporated the abilities and power of the SSJG stage in his base form - and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin), as if one wasn't enough.
That doesn't mean that the rate at which they introduce(d) new Super Saiya-jin stages for Goku (and Vegeta) to keep up with the degree of power of the Beerus + Whis duo will be the same from now onward, I honestly think they'll stop at Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin at least for the duration of DBSuper. Although both Vegeta and Goku as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin are shown to be still below Beerus (and thus, also Whis) in Fukkatsu no F, the stage is indeed a further development in terms of abilities and power when compared to Super Saiya-jin God, and in that stage they're getting pretty close to the likes of Beerus and Whis (Whis even comments in the movie that if they teamed up in that stage they'd be able to beat Beerus). If whatever or whoever the new menace that shows up in the 6th Universe arc is on par with or even beyond Beerus and Whis, then the ultimate way to defeat them will be either to have Goku and Vegeta team up as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin or have Beerus (and perhaps even Whis) fight alongside them (not matter how much I'd like to have the concept of fusion between Goku and Vegeta brought to the series again, and now matter how much I think that its potential hasn't been properly explored - we only saw Vegitto for a few episodes and Gogeta, whether in Movie 12 or in GT, isn't even canon and shows up only for an extremely short period of time, I'm pretty sure it won't happen, but just imagine how INSANELY powerful a fusion, regardless of the method (Potara or dance) between Goku and Vegeta would be after they reach the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage; none of the fusion methods merely add the power of one of the fusees to the other one's, it multiplies them exponentially, so the level of power of a fused Vegitto or Gogeta by the time of the Freeza arc in DBSuper (or Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events) would basically be arguably the strongest warrior there ever was in the entire Universe(s).
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
On that note, Tenshinhan comes in third place right after Vegeta and Piccolo in my personal list of favorite all-time Dragonball characters. You can definitely see a pattern there: serious, proud warriors who were at first presented as ruthless and evil (by putting Piccolo I'm deliberately refraining from including his father Piccolo Daimao in the list, as Piccolo is pretty much, more than a son, the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, and the main reasons for me having so much respect and deep feelings for Piccolo dates back to his evil days where he acted pretty much the same way Piccolo Daimao did - my kanji says it all, I think).
Tenshinhan being so high in my list might explain why I've always regarded him as being the strongest Earthling there is, above Krillin, arguing that he actually keeps training on a constant basis, unlike Krillin, he puts martial arts above everything else and takes it seriously, unlike Krillin, has no distractions, unlike Krillin, he manages to stall Cell in a badass unexpected intervention, unlike Krillin, and underwent the same type of power development as Krillin did - Krillin got his power multiplied by the Namek Elder, Tenshinhan got a lot from his training at Kaiou-sama's planet. Simply being Goku's best friend and much more of a protagonist throughout DBZ than Tenshinhan, who has long periods of hermit-like absence, doesn't automatically make Krillin the strongest.
Agree with you, I adore Tenshinhan for struggling and keeping up with his training, while other guys stopped doing it. He was also quite evil and sadistic before becoming a good guy, similarly to Piccolo and Vegeta. I can totally see similarities between all of them. I personally also see Tenshinhan as the strongest human, considering that he has the strongest technique - Shin Kikoho, and never stopped training, yet for some reasons Toriyama thinks that Krillin is the strongest one... I dunno, just doesn't make sense to me. And Krillin being the first true friend of Goku (while he even wasn't to be fair, Goku met Bulma, Yamcha, Oolong and Roshi far before he ever met Krillin), and I personally don't see bonding between Krillin and Goku to be that great past Namek saga. Not that it matters anyway, because you don't become the strongest person, simpy because of being main character's best friend. Because with this logic Bulma should be the strongest one. Tenshinhan has repeatedly shown, that he always trains, despite being majorly outclassed, that he is able to develop his technique (Kikoho) from not being able to wound Nappa to be able to hold off Cell (!), the being not only much stronger than him, but stronger than both of Androids, who are much stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta (prior ROSAT) and Super Saiyan Goku (also prior ROSAT) and Piccolo (after fusing with Kami), with the name of technique being Shin Kikoho, now this was admirable. Krillin has shown nothing even close to that even by Buu saga.
Yeah, and it's not just sheer power as an Earthling (in fact, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha and Chaozu are all freakish prodigies for having reached the level of power they did for an Earthling, taking into account the natural limits humans have in terms of Ki), it's the entire attitude he has. He's the only one with the courage and attitude to take on Cell, Super Buu and even Beerus, despite knowing he has since long before become obsolete as a fighter in terms of sheer power. There are NUMEROUS absolutely fantastic and delightful events throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs in DBZ, and Tenshinhan's sudden intervention in episode 152 is one of them. He knows he's absolutely no match for Cell in his second form, he's light-years below him, and he even says to himself he's probably going to die, but he courageously almost kills himself to allow #16 and #18 to escape (successfully, otherwise Cell would become perfect 8 episodes before he actually did).
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dbgtFO wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Do you guys think DBSuper is going to run BEYOND the 6th Universe arc?
Yeah, I'm kinda expecting the next logical step to be a struggle, that threatens all universes or something(maybe that could be in the next movie?)[/quote]
No doubt further movies will be made after DBSuper ends (or even WHILE it runs), but I was specifically referring to more arcs within DBSuper itself as an isolated TV series. Of course there'll be more Movies, Specials and TV series after DBSuper ends, regardless of how well it does or what critics it gets.
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Half of an episode dedicated to a showdown between Oolong and Beerus and one minute and a half of berserk Vegeta vs Beerus (although Vegeta did lanch a few powerful punches on him, it looked more powerful than the rage + power display in BoG).
It appears they're keeping the ritual exactly as in BoG, Videl is clearly seen among the group of the ones performing the ritual, so it's pretty obvious Pan has been already conceived as well and is inside her, just like in BoG.
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Regardless of the - FINALLY - revealing of just how they were going to go around the ritual to achieve Super Saiya-jin God (exactly the same as in BoG), this is why you can't even begin to compare DBSuper to the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ in terms of seriousness, and why you can't really deem Beerus a full-fledged evil genocidal villain: you wouldn't see early Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu having a showdown with f******* Oolong, would you?
Goku turning his head slowly upon completing his transformation into Super Saiya-jin God looked pretty badass, gotta say.
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Lord Beerus wrote:
Best way to sum up the episode is: Absurdly High Stakes Game.
That said, I felt the Rock-paper-scissors game between Beerus and Oolong dragged out a bit too long. I will admit I laughed quite a bit when Beerus selected Oolong and everyone backed away from Oolong, leaving the fate of the world up to him. The battle between SS2J Vegeta and Beerus is hands-down the best battle so far in Super, but that's not saying much. I loved that track that played when Beerus was about to destroy the world, but conversely, I hated the track that was chosen for when Goku arrived to stop Beerus from destroying the world. The Pilaf Gang appearing the way they did seemed so out of place, as well.
Overall though, a decent episode. But if any episode felt like in dragged the most in Super, it was this one.
Absolutely agree on the Vegeta vs Beerus battle being the best fighting sequence we've seen so far in DBSuper, even if it lasted just about a minute and a half. Definitely surpassed BoG's version of it. The sheer sound of Vegeta's insanely powerful punches on Beerus were absolutely badass. Goddamn it, they could have stretched the Vegeta vs Beerus sequence a little bit longer. Why spend half an episode with Oolong instead of giving Vegeta's now (in)famous rage-triggered "mutation" some more fighting time?
The ones who back from Oolong when Beerus picks him include Gohan. Yeah, he's being depicted as a nerdy little coward despite being the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him, going from being one of the most powerful warriors in the Universe to a useless, tertiary character. It's "official" now.
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ShaneisMC wrote:
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
With Pan being born now, I guess they are officially writing EoZ out of the story. I wonder if they'll do anything with Uub, I'd like to see him again.
Wasnt it stated that "some time had passed" an that the series does not begin 6 months after Buu an that was just a mistake in promotion basically?
All we know and have known for quite a while (ever since the series started, in fact) is that these events take place at least 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu, but they don't specify how much time has passed since then. It could be months, or it could be years. If they do choose to go down the road of retconning the last 3 episodes of DBZ and "wipe out" that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub I'd be more than pleased, as it has never particularly appealed to me (far from it, I've always seen it as a hasty ending to DBZ, due to the obvious and understandable fact that Toriyama was pretty tired of the pressure of having to constantly and consistently having to come with stories, characters and events with the same fantastic quality incessantly for over a decade without any interruptions (hence his lack of involvement in GT and the resulting disaster it amounted to, among other reasons).
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Zombie wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Ajay wrote:
That music as Goku showed up was utterly dreadful. I'm also starting to get sick of Luffy-face Goku.
This was also said earlier and I agree. It was first used, when Gotenks appeared in the previous episode and it's really not fitting at all for Goku's arrival.
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
With Pan being born now, I guess they are officially writing EoZ out of the story. I wonder if they'll do anything with Uub, I'd like to see him again.
They have yet to say, when exactly this takes place. With Pan being born, the logical assumption is that it's indeed ~4 years after Buu, rather than the 6 months claimed by unreliable promotional material.
We'll know for sure if they mention Tarble.
If they do, it'll be along the same exact lines as seen in BoG: Bulma asking Vegeta if he hasn't kept up with his brother, and Vegeta simply replying he's in a faraway planet. That's IF they do at all. They keep changing and adding some small stuff to DBSuper's version of the events when compared to BoG, but I've been noticing they've also gotten rid of a few sentences uttered by characters in the movie, especially in the last two or three episodes.
If I really, really had to bet, I'd say they won't mention Tarble at all, which doesn't necessarily render the 2008 Special "non-existent" or "non-canon" in any way, as there's really nothing there, until further notice, that directly contradicts the events being depicted in DBSuper so far. Tarble was hastily introduced in his Special as a hastily-conceived "excuse" to complete the story, I believe they see him as lacking the potential to become an interesting character in terms of background, unlike properly developed and introduced characters like Beerus and Whis.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
Whether Super runs beyond the Uni 6 saga completely depends on how successful it is. If its pace is as bad as the crap so far, expect that to be the end.
We might get more movies though.
I disagree, Dragonball as a franchise will never simply "end", its potential is virtually limitless. Even if they screwed up big time with DBSuper, which I personally think they aren't, despite what could be called minor shortcomings here and there, and if it ran for a shorter time than initially intended, we'll get at least about 50 episodes (I estimate that the Beerus arc will be done in 12/14 episodes, and so will the Freeza arc, with two or three smoother episodes in-between, placing the start of the 6th Universe arc at around episode 28/30, and from then on we can only speculate on how long it will run, but since it'll be the first really new stuff in terms of characters, events and villains, unlike the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the form of arcs within DBSuper, I assume it's not only going to be the most serious arc, it's also going to be the longer. It would take a disaster at some point in DBSuper to not reach AT LEAST 50 episodes, but I'm expecting much more than that (simply because, for the reasons stated before, I'm expecting the 6th Universe arc to last much longer than the first two arcs within DBSuper, and far longer than 20 or even 25 episodes, but I could be totally wrong on that, we'll just have to wait for official info or for the actual episodes as they come out).
Even if DBSuper came down to a complete disaster (it would have worse effects than GT, since it's a full-fledged series 18 years after the last one ended, while GT was made in a rush right after DBZ ended, Toriyama wasn't even involved, it was made for commercial purposes more than anything and lacked proper planning, storyline and character backgrounds and development, which DBSuper would have no excuse for if it made these same mistakes), all it would take for Dragonball to completely and fully recover would be a new well-planned, fantastic Movie or Special like BoG to revive the franchise and the fans' interest in it and hype for it, eventually, sooner or later, generating a new full-fledged TV series and/or a set of new and canon Movies or Specials to serve as a continuation to DBZ and DBSuper in terms of storyline/timeline. It has happened in the past, and not just in Dragonball, and not just in anime altogether. The worst that can happen to Dragonball is not to simply end, it's actually to have its quality drop significantly or dramatically after Toriyama passes away or becomes too old to come up with stories in his creative process.
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irreality wrote:
Saiyan007 wrote:
Do you not understand the huge gap between vegito and Goku in the first place?
I do… You seem not to? Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Goku tells us nothing of where Vegito falls in that scale, since Vegito is *so much* stronger.
Saiyan007 wrote:
A pat on the shoulder is all goku needed to tell that Vegito stood no chance against beerus.
The way pretty much everyone develops the ability to sense (and measure) a warrior's Ki and their own enables them to make a rough estimate of how much of a gap there is between two or more fighters. Judging from how quickly and especially easily Beerus KO'd him after avoiding all of his Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2 and especially Super Saiya-jin 3 attempts at him, Goku can tell - because he remembers the power "he" had when he was Vegitto along with Vegeta against Super Buu - that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (and it would have to be through the Potara method, as that's the only canon way the two fuse, both of dance-created Gogeta's apparances in Movie 12 and in GT are non-canon) would be enough to fight Beerus, but it's not an absolutely precise calculation (he does say "probably not even a fusion with Vegeta would work on him", he doesn't say "DEFINITELY not even a fusion with Vegeta would work on him".
irreality wrote:
Basically we know:
Beerus> >> Goku
Beerus >>> Vegeta > Goku
Vegito >> Goku
Beerus >? Vegito
That is all. There is no other information to draw more conclusions.
Based on the not-so-in-depth paragraph I've written above, there should be no question mark when comparing Beerus to Vegitto; Beerus IS stronger than Vegitto, at least it's very likely he is. As for the other comparisons of the Ki of the most powerful warriors in the Universe, introduced throughout the Majin Buu arc and in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper (counting only canon events and stages), it's pretty obvious that Vegitto is the strongest warrior there is in the entirety of DBZ, and going beyond DBZ, second only to the Beerus + Whis duo, while if we stick to DBZ only, he's far above even the strongest versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
What WOULD be interesting to discuss, much more than these comparisons, is just how Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta would compare to Vegitto, since all of those four are still below Beerus and Whis, but there really is no way to tell if they're actually stronger than Vegitto. We could argue one way or another, but it would all be speculation, we can't even calculate anything, we can only estimate and theorize.
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Zombie wrote:
In reality SSJ3 or even SSJ2 Vegetto don't exist. Goku was having a SSJ Vegetto in mind only.
Well that's my take.
Bullza wrote:
It's possible that he was referring to that as there's never been a SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegito but I see no reason why that character couldn't exist.
It seems odd that he'd say that fusion wouldn't work and not be referring to the full extent of Vegito's abilities. Either he was taking SSJ3 Vegito into account or Super Vegito was the limit, the former seems more likely to me.
I've actually discussed this either in this or in another thread a few days ago, but in my view the fusion technique produces such otherwordly strange results that it, just for example's sake, allows Vegitto to surpass any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form, without transforming into ANY Super Saiya-jin stage. I've also made the point that Vegitto is so perfectly put together as a warrior, combining two martial arts and Ki manipulation Saiya-jin experts who have mastered SSJ2 completely, while one of them achieved even SSJ3, that the degree to which his power increases exponentially while transforming into each Super Saiya-jin stage is inferior to the power boost any other, "regular" Saiya-jin gets; basically, and to summarize, my theory is that Super Saiya-jin Vegitto isn't THAT much stronger than base Vegitto, and Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto wouldn't be THAT much stronger than Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (the same applying to a potential Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto when compared to Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto). That's one of the theories that would make sense in order to explain why Goku says that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (and all he can remember is Potara-created Vegitto against Super Buu, dance-created Gogeta isn't even canon, as he only appears in Movie 12 and GT) would work on Beerus (because Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto, or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto, wouldn't skyrocket Vegitto's power level to the same degrees as it would in the case of a regular, non-fused Saiya-jin).
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Zombie wrote:
In reality SSJ3 or even SSJ2 Vegetto don't exist. Goku was having a SSJ Vegetto in mind only.
Well that's my take.
Bullza wrote:
It's possible that he was referring to that as there's never been a SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegito but I see no reason why that character couldn't exist.
It seems odd that he'd say that fusion wouldn't work and not be referring to the full extent of Vegito's abilities. Either he was taking SSJ3 Vegito into account or Super Vegito was the limit, the former seems more likely to me.
I've actually discussed this either in this or in another thread a few days ago, but in my view the fusion technique produces such otherwordly strange results that it, just for example's sake, allows Vegitto to surpass any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form, without transforming into ANY Super Saiya-jin stage. I've also made the point that Vegitto is so perfectly put together as a warrior, combining two martial arts and Ki manipulation Saiya-jin experts who have mastered SSJ2 completely, while one of them achieved even SSJ3, that the degree to which his power increases exponentially while transforming into each Super Saiya-jin stage is inferior to the power boost any other, "regular" Saiya-jin gets; basically, and to summarize, my theory is that Super Saiya-jin Vegitto isn't THAT much stronger than base Vegitto, and Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto wouldn't be THAT much stronger than Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (the same applying to a potential Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto when compared to Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto). That's one of the theories that would make sense in order to explain why Goku says that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (and all he can remember is Potara-created Vegitto against Super Buu, dance-created Gogeta isn't even canon, as he only appears in Movie 12 and GT) would work on Beerus (because Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto, or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto, wouldn't skyrocket Vegitto's power level to the same degrees as it would in the case of a regular, non-fused Saiya-jin).
Sora Saiyan wrote:
I see SSJ3 Vegetto falling just below SSJ God, unless Goku says something as a SSJG that will change my mind.
We know for a fact (not really a fact, but judging by Goku's estimates after fighting Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet) that Vegitto, regardless of the stage he fights in, is below the Beerus + Whis duo, but we really have no way to tell just how he stands when compared to Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as all of these four are also below Beerus and Whis. We can only speculate, but if I had to bet I'd say that both Goku and Vegeta (and, consequently, Golden Freeza) in their respective SSJGSSJ stages are above Vegitto at the latter's very strongest.
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FuriusMarius wrote:
In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.
1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks
U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.
Where exactly do they say beyond any doubt that Ultimate Gohan is stronger ("far superior", as you put it) than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've always put them on par with each other. And where exactly are you getting it from that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've also always put him below both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin
If you count the latest Movies and DBSuper, then Whis is the very strongest warrrior there is, followed by Beerus, and then (presumably) Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (on par with each other), Golden Freeza (at times above the previous two, in terms of sheer power) and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. The only warrior from the Majin Buu arc who has a chance to come even close to these warriors is obviously Vegitto, there's a huge gap between him and everyone else, including the second-strongest warrior (which is why Beerus KO's everyone at the party, including Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, fat Majin Buu, and Goku at Kaiou-sama's so effortlessly, they are worlds apart).
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
SSJG Goku vs Beerus will surpass episode 5 in terrible quality. Mark my words.
Episode 9 might not look super great, but I'm hoping 10, which will pretty much being Goku VS Beerus for the whole episode, will look better.
Episode 9 very well may not have any of God Goku vs. Beerus in it. Episode titles seem to describe events from the last ~2 minutes of the show. Seeing how Episode 9 is "Super Saiyan God is Born", it's a safe bet that Goku will end up magenta just in time for the credits to roll.
Yeah, just like episode 7 referred to Vegeta's "mutation" at its title and the episode is cut exactly as he finishes the power boost thing. The pace at which events are being retold when compared to BoG makes it pretty obvious that it will take the entirety of episode 9 for them to undergo the entire Super Saiya-jin God ritual (at first failing due to lacking one Saiya-jin, and then proceeding with the ritual properly by adding Videl, and thus already conceived-Pan), by the end of which we'll get Goku turning his face to the camera in that badass manner upon completing his transformation into Super Saiya-jin God. Then episode 10 will be probably, and hopefully, entirely dedicated to the actual fight, and it could "spill" to episode 11, which makes our previous estimates that the Beerus arc, as in, the entire retelling of the full events of BoG from beginning to end, will take about 12 episodes (episode 12 will probably revolve around everyone pondering on the fight they just had, at its aftermath - Goku, Vegeta and the others on Earth, Beerus in his own planet with Whis, after these two leave Earth and after Whis politely asks Goku if he would like to become the next Hakaishin after Beerus dies, and POTENTIALLY - and this would be fantastic - after Whis proceeds to ask Goku and Vegeta if they'd like to train under him, or the other way around, thus making the link to the Fukkatsu no F and its series' version in the form of the upcoming Freeza arc).
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sintzu wrote:
This was definitely an upgrade over his fight in the movie which means he'll get an even longer and better fight with Freeza.
MCDaveG wrote:
Everyone is useless so far, Vegeta shined a little bit, but Goku is the star of the show (just like GT).
A little bit ? he did more then what Goku did before getting ssjg and in the 2nd arc he defeats golden Freeza who's the main villain of the arc but in Gt he didn't even get to lay a hand on a main villain let alone defeat one.
Forget about the main villains he didn't even get to fight any of the side ones so how exactly is this like Gt ?
The fight WAS an improvement when compared to what we saw in BoG; in the movie's version of events, Vegeta merely lands a few punches on Beerus, sending him flying away, and then fires a massive giant Ki blast at him, while in yesterday's episode the sheer sound of Vegeta's numerous punches makes it pretty badass, and - understandably - we got more Vegeta vs Beerus fighting time, but they could STILL stretch it out a bit, or even much further, instead of dedicating half an episode to Beerus vs f****** Oolong. This is why you can't take DBSuper as seriously as DBZ, and why Beerus could never be deemed a full-fledged serious, dramatic genocidal evil villain; you wouldn't expect to see Piccolo Daimao, early days-Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu having a showdown with Oolong, would you?
Vegeta is much more of a (co-)protagonist in DBSuper than he was in GT. Although he did overcome Gohan in GT by achieving Super Saiya-jin 4, just like he'll do in DBSuper by achieving Super Saiya-jin God, at first, then incorporating the abilities and power of SSJG in his base form - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then achieving/developing Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin along with Goku, they're clearly for Vegeta being one of the three or four main characters in the TV series, matching his level of power to his level of protagonism accordingly (I mean, he'll basically skip the degrees of power from any fighter introduced in the Majin Buu arc and go directly from his previous strongest stage, Super Saiya-jin 2, all the way to one of the most powerful warriors there are in the entire Universe, close to Beerus and Whis (surpassing/skipping Ultimate Gohan, all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, arguably Vegitto and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku in the process). Gohan, on the other hand, is very deliberately being given the opposite treatment, going from one of the strongest warriors there ever was to a completely obsolete warrior, a nerdy little cowardly weakling who skips training and loses all of his previously acquired fighting instincts, a guy who isn't even sure if he can go Super Saiya-jin anymore.
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Theophrastus wrote:
I would really hope that there will be at least a couple of episodes in-between the end of the Battle of Gods arc and the start of the Resurrection F arc to explain how the status quo in that movie actually came about.
I mean, Vegeta obtaining Super Saiyan God, Goku and Vegeta training with Whis, and them both figuring out the whole "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" thing could all probably be individual episodes in themselves.
Exactly, those are precisely the two events which happened off-screen somewhere in-between BoG and Fukaktsu no F that I've mentioned more than once that I'd like to see on-screen in DBSuper. Taking two or even more episodes to do so, dedicating them, at least partially, to explain where, why and how Vegeta turned Super Saiya-jin God himself, after Goku does, and Goku's and Vegeta's decision to go and train with Whis (at the latter's request or otherwise) would be fantastic, I really hope it happens.
It would be much better to get the likely and anticipated two or three episodes in-between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc to be dedicated to these previously off-screen events instead of smoother episodes, like the first two in the series.
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FuriusMarius wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
FuriusMarius wrote:
In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.
1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks
U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.
Where exactly do they say beyond any doubt that Ultimate Gohan is stronger ("far superior", as you put it) than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've always put them on par with each other. And where exactly are you getting it from that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've also always put him below both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin
If you count the latest Movies and DBSuper, then Whis is the very strongest warrrior there is, followed by Beerus, and then (presumably) Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (on par with each other), Golden Freeza (at times above the previous two, in terms of sheer power) and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. The only warrior from the Majin Buu arc who has a chance to come even close to these warriors is obviously Vegitto, there's a huge gap between him and everyone else, including the second-strongest warrior (which is why Beerus KO's everyone at the party, including Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, fat Majin Buu, and Goku at Kaiou-sama's so effortlessly, they are worlds apart).
First of all, Super Boo is superior than Kid Boo and Goku ssj3 is equal to kid Boo more or less.
Gokuh is very very surprise when Gohan become Saiko No Senshi like he never felt this power before.
When Boo Gotenks power down to Boo Piccolo, Goku says that now Gohan can easly beat him.
When Vegeta ask the wishes to Porunga to bring back to life everybody, Goku first arrives to the conclusion that is cause the Gohan or Gotenks can easly beat Kid Boo.
All this is in the Manga.
Hmm, Kid Buu is above the first version of Super Buu (that is, the one without anyone absorbed) and arguably the Super Buu version we get to see for a few minutes only (with Piccolo dominant).
I know Kid Buu is roughly equal to Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, I never said he wasn't. However, if I had to choose one to be slightly above the other, I'd choose Kid Buu.
Goku can be surprised all he wants, being surprised at your son's enormous power doesn't mean he's stronger than you. At that point, Goku most likely believes he's by far the strongest good guy there is in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, which would explain why he was surprised to see someone else become about as powerful as he was.
Yeah, Goku says that Super Buu with Piccolo dominant can be defeated by Ultimate Gohan or Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks, but it doesn't mean he can't defeat him himself too as a Super Saiya-jin 3 (Goku goes throughout most of the entire Majin Buu arc deliberately intending the living warriors on Earth to be the one to defeat this particular menace, instead of him, an example of which is when he fights fat Majin Buu and refrains from finishing him off despite having the potential to do so and end the entire arc right then and there, simply because he wants Gohan, Vegeta and the others to be the ones to get rid of the enemy this time around).
Yeah, when Vegeta comes up with his plan and Goku understands what it is he believes the strategy involves having Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight Kid Buu, but there's nothing there that specifies Goku thinks one would them would be able to beat Kid Buu single-handedly, he's probably thinking Vegeta's plan involves having everybody - including precisely Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks - team up with each other, and/or with himself, to, all of them together, defeat Kid Buu.
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Holy shit, I get away from the computer for one afternoon and there are two pages worth of reply to the debate we were having. There's just too much interesting stuff all of you have written in terms of power levels both to my estimates and to others', so I'm not going to reply to any of them at the moment, I'll do it probably tomorrow, there really is a lot to be thought about and written.
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MajinVegetaSSj6 wrote:
hA, Vegeta used the Galick Gun against Beerus, right?
The way he puts his arms and hands he definitely looked like he was using Gallic Gun, which took us back to early days-Vegeta, and I stroke me immediately upon seeing it while the episode originally ran, but whatever it was, the way it enlarges on release and impact and the effect it has is pretty much exactly the one seen in BoG's version of events (even the color of the attack when it's released, in fact).
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Birusu16 wrote:
Like I said before, DB isn't supposed to be realistic. SSJ2 Vegeta becoming stronger than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan is unrealistic to yet that's what we have. Such a boost for Vegeta may not be liked or realistic, but it's what we have, especially since Goku believed not even fusion could stand up to a Beerus who used less power on him than on Vegeta.
Pretty much. Vegeta and Goku have both been deemed fighting geniuses on numerous occasions throughout DBZ (by each other and by others), but both of them lack Gohan's inherent "ability" to go berserk when pushed to his emotional limits, giving him not only a massive power boost in his numerous "tantrums" in the first half of the series but also resulting in a temporary psychotic episode (as in, loss of control over one's actions, to the point of not even remembering having performed them), the Cell Games Super Saiya-jin 2 trigger being the only instance in which he seems to be able to maintain some degree of control over his emotional stability while he thrashes the Cell Juniors and Cell himself (perhaps due to having achieved a natural, age-related emotional maturity).
The word "mutation" present in the title of episode 7 is pretty much the perfect term to describe what Vegeta undergoes in episodes 7 and 8 of DBSuper, instead of an actual, physical "transformation", since what he experiences is a freakish, temporary occurrence which allows him, very temporarily, to go beyond the power limits "imposed" to/by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage. Going beyond the power limits of a particular Super Saiya-jin stage is so rare an occurrence in anyone except Gohan that it's the entire reason why Vegeta's power boost in BoG and DBSuper after Beerus hits Bulma has been over-debated to death. Weird stuff does happen here and there, not only to Gohan. The fusion technique is another example of presenting and producing entirely freakish results in the ultimately fused warrior (such as Vegitto being far stronger than any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form). Going back to Vegeta, despite losing his shit to the point of, for a few seconds, losing his pupils, he doesn't tap into any hidden power as a result, simply because he doesn't have it the way Gohan does (and Vegeta has numerous instances of emotional instability and going berserk with anger and/or frustration, without it resulting in any power boost whatsoever - actually, his pathological pride gets in the way and prevents him from using his trademark intelligence and strategic fighting mind, whenever he comes across an adversary who surpasses him after he - once again - proclaims himself to have surpassed Kakarotto and become the strongest warrior in the Universe.
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Bullza wrote:
Wait why exactly are there people saying Vegeta is stronger than Vegito?
Going back a few pages ago, the only way that claim could be made is if we consider Vegeta's level of power when/after he himself achieves the Super Saiya-jin God stage at some point in-between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc (as it happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events), then incorporates the abilities and power of the SSJG stage in his base form - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then achieves/develops the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage. Other than that, the claim itself is obviously ridiculous, and as far as I read nobody made it. Even surpassing Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku temporarily, he's still worlds apart from Vegitto (let alone Beerus).
Vegitto is below the Beerus + Whis duo, that's pretty much a given, but we can really only speculate on how Vegitto's level of power compares to Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as all of these four are also still below Beerus and Whis, but if I had to bet I'd say Vegitto is below all of them, regardless of the stage he fights in (base, Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2 or even potentially Super Saiya-jin 3).
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Quite honestly and frankly, coming up with endless calculations to try to figure out how powerful each character is when compared to others, and to what degree(s), is a next-to-futile exercise at this point. Of course we can debate whether a particular fighter is stronger than another, especially when it comes to/involves stages and levels of power achieved in the recent movies (BoG and Fukkatsu no F) and in DBSuper, but in most cases (not all, though) we just lack any specific information that makes it clear or beyond any reasonable doubt that a particular warrior is a given times stronger, or a certain percentage stronger than another. If we go by numbers instead of simply generating lists or rankings, it starts getting overly complicated and everybody disagrees with everybody. Numbers were a good and mathematic way to measure a particular warriors' power level when the Scouters were trendy during the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, not anymore.
I could generate a new list, or repeat my past ones (both recent and dating back to a few weeks or even months ago), but I think my points have been made.
I understand that this thread is specifically dedicated to discuss precisely this subject, but the most important thing at this point is to have it pretty clear that nobody surpasses the Beerus + Whis duo, that absolutely nobody (not Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, not Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, not rage-filled temporarily psychotic Vegeta, not Ultimate Gohan, not fat Majin Buu, not any version of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, not Gotenks, not even Vegitto, if he was still around) come even close to the degree of power those two possess, they're just leagues and worlds apart. Only Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta come close to the level of power of Beerus and Whis, and this automatically puts them in an entirely different level with which the likes of secondary or tertiary (although still extremely powerful and previous main) characters just can't and won't be able to keep up (Gohan, Piccolo, #18, fat Majin Buu, Trunks, Goten, etc.).
It could be argued Goku, Beerus and Vegeta are the three main characters in DBSuper, they're very deliberately pushing Gohan to the sidelines and replacing him slowly but surely by Vegeta both in terms of (co-)protagonism and power, matching one to the other accordingly. Everybody (Piccolo, #18, even Tenshinhan) still gets their fighting time both in the Beerus arc and in the Freeza arc, just like they did in BoG's and Fukkatsu no F's movies' version of events, but not against the main villain, at least not in a lengthy way.
They've very deliberately decided that only Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jins with the typical constant need to train and fight new and stronger adversaries to overcome their limits and those of others, will be able to keep up with the recently introduced Beerus, Whis and whoever turns out to be the main adversary/villain in the 6th Universe arc.
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Doctor. wrote:
Gohan comes immediately to mind, when he comes to Earth fight Super Boo. The manga was clear cut and straight to the point: Gohan took on the mantle as the savior of Earth and wouldn't fool around like his child self, hence the "I'll kill you" speech that is so famous, it's the culmination of Gohan's character, he defeated Boo in less than a chapter and was ready to kill him before Boo outsmarted him. The anime takes that, adds a bunch of unnecessary padding that gives Gohan actions and lines that make him out to be a cocky asshole who didn't learn anything against Cell. There's a reason why most people keep saying Gohan was fooling around against Super Boo, when in the manga this wasn't the case at all.
Well, Gohan is identified as having a next-to-immeasurable or next-to-infinite potential as early as the first episodes of DBZ by Goku, Piccolo, Raditz and Vegeta, and he goes on to display the "ability" to tap into it by being pushed to his emotional limits and having temporary psychotic episodes, resulting in his numerous "tantrums" in the first half of DBZ, throughout the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs; in the Jinzouningen arc he's a secondary character as far as fighting goes, but ultimately, by the Cell arc, Goku develops the strategy of combining the fact that his power skyrockets exponentially when he goes berserk with his developed power (first of all, turning him Super Saiya-jin and then skipping the in-between stages to go all the way to Super Saiya-jin Full Power at the Cell Games, close to Goku, slightly below Cell and slightly above Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks) - Goku calculated that one of Gohan's "tantrums" with that degree of power would provide him with enough strength to overcome Cell, recognizing in Gohan the ability to be the only one to have the potential to save the world at the Cell Games. It's also the first and only instance of Gohan being pushed to his emotional limits (thus having an explosion of anger) and still retaining some degree of control over his actions while thrashing Cell Juniors and Cell himself. After that, and especially as an adult in the Majin Buu arc, one could argue that the fact that he reached a natural, age-related maturity makes him less likely to have uncontrollable rage "tantrums".
They clearly intended the torch to be passed from Goku to Gohan at the Cell Games, by having Gohan become the franchise's main hero and be the one to kill Cell. They even had Goku die to serve that specific purpose, which is perhaps best illustrated by looking at the opening of the Majin Buu arc. However, this proved to be an ultimately failed move, since they once again had Goku be the one to finish off the menace in the Majin Buu arc by having him be one to kill Kid Buu. The last moment Gohan had to really shine was when he showed up to thrash Super Buu, but even after becoming one of the strongest and most powerful warriors there was in the entire Universe, on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, he was outclassed once again in a matter of just 2 episodes, even allowing Gotenks to fight in his place instead of finishing Super Buu quickly, as he could very easily have done, thus providing the catalyst (the entire Super Buu strategy, in fact) for his defeat at the hands of a stronger version of Super Buu soon after that.
In DBSuper, and indeed in everything they've been throwing our way recently after 11 years of inactivity (2008 Special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F), they clearly and very deliberately decided to totally replace him with Vegeta in terms of (co-)protagonism, matching Vegeta's power to his degree of protagonism accordingly, by having him quickly overcome Ultimate Gohan at some point in-between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc within DBSuper (or between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events), alongside everyone who was stronger than him in the Majin Buu arc in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage (all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Gotenks, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Vegitto), by being the one to keep up with Goku, as a pure Saiya-jin, and undergo Super Saiya-jin God, first of all, then incorporating the abilities and power of the SSJG stage - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then achieving/developing Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, following Goku's same exact steps in terms of power/transformation progression just a little bit after he does, but ultimately fully catching up with him, instead of what happens throughout the entirety of DBZ, where Goku is always "one step ahead of him" and always manages to "always overcome him when he thought he had caught up with Kakarotto". I honestly believe there won't be any further Super Saiya-jin stages developed or achieved after SSJGSSJ in DBSuper, even in the 6th Universe arc or in any other potential event taking place after that, we've had as much as THREE new different SSJ stages in a matter of two years, that should be enough; in order to beat whoever turns out to be the main antagonist/villain in the 6th Universe arc, either they team up as SSJGSSJ, or they fuse into Potara-created Vegitto or dance-created Gogeta, or they fight alongside Beerus and perhaps even Whis.
Doctor. wrote:
And Super is following the movies. DBZ's pacing was bad not only because they were giving the manga some breathing room, but also because they were milking the hell out of it, just like Super is doing. And Super isn't retelling stories in a half-assed manner, it's doing everything Battle of Gods couldn't do because of its time constraints, starting with Beerus' characterization. Episode 8 was the only real bad episode, outside of 5 for obvious reasons, so I'm not sure why you're making such a big fuss out of it, there are plenty of episodes like it in DBZ lol. It didn't have episodes that were mostly unrelated to the previous? You sure? How about that time we cut away to frog-Ginyu taking over Bulma while Goku and Freeza are fighting? Like I said above, I'd have to rewatch the entire series and I could give you countless examples, but it's so terrible that I don't want to do that.
Pretty much. The reason why DBZ goes as far as 291 episodes, with about 50% of it being filler material present in out-of-nowhere scenes put in-between serious fights and events, and even entire arcs (Garlic Jr.), is because it followed the manga and the episodes were being produced and released almost as soon as the manga version was, so in order to give Toriyama the time he needed to, first of all, develop the manga and come up with the stories, characters and events so that it could provide a base for the anime episodes to be produced, they were forced to throw in stuff in the anime that was just made up (hastily or not) by artists other than Toriyama, otherwise it would just be impossible (it's logically impossible to have manga-based anime produced and released before the manga itself is complete). That's why we get the "infamous" 5 minutes of Namek's destruction stretching out between episodes 97 to 106 (10, in total), although this COULD, in theory, easily be attributed to a simple miscalculation by Freeza, and besides it's just the most famous example to illustrate just how much filler there is throughout the entirety of the arcs in DBZ.
Kai partially fixed that, by getting rid of the filler material, putting it - in its first "round", from 2009 to 2011 - at 98 episodes, where as DBZ's version of the same exact events took 194 episodes to be completed (about half, in fact, which just strengthens my point that about 50% of the material in DBZ was filler).
Doctor. wrote:
The animation made news because it's a brand new series in 18 years and the animation is, as anyone who knows anything about Toei animation would expect, sub-par and downright awful in episode 5. The only reason DBZ's animation isn't so trashed on is because DBZ is over. There are plenty, God, literally hundreds of segments where it looks just as bad, if not worse, all thanks to Mr. Uchiyama and Mr. Ebisawa.
Exactly. If there was a fast way to convey and spread information back in the 80's and 90's, while DB and DBZ were originally running, fans would go berserk at the quality of about half of the episodes of DBZ, and as a result it would probably never go beyond the Freeza arc as a TV series. Back a few weeks ago, in the aftermath of episode's 5 "scandal", we thoroughly discussed the animation in DB and DBZ and I specified that the way it worked was by having as much as over 10 different animations team working on the episodes on an alternating, rotating basis, allocating an episode to a particular team every 5 or 6 episodes; for example, the two animation teams you're referring two are the ones behind, in one case, and just for example (not gonna give entire lists like I did before), episodes 1, 5, 22, 45, 53, 55 79, 83, 85, 128, 145, 186, 228 (simply animated but good for fights in terms of movement), and in the other one (the one which gave us really AWFUL animation in DBZ, and my least favorite one), episodes 6, 27, 33, 46, 51, 66, 71, 75, 80, 84, 94, 98, 104, 126, 131, 139, 144, 148, etc. My personal favorite animation teams in DBZ are the one behind, for example, episodes 21, 28 and 64 (extremely detailed traces and extremely well-designed), the one behind episodes 126, 143, 162 or 168, the one behind episodes 142, 152, 159 and 164 (extremely detailed) and especially - my favorite one - the one behind, for example, episodes 4, 25, 31, 36, 47, 54, 68, 81, 87, 104, 130, 150, 160, 166, 187 and 268.
The fact that the different animation teams are allocated an entire episode each in DBZ on a rotating basis results in the fact we see huge differences in the quality of the drawing and animation from one episode to the next.
For one, episode 5's animation wasn't THAT bad after you watch with a clear mind after all the fuss about it is now over. It was the fact that everyone was going frame-by-frame that it looked THAT awful; I'm not saying the animation/fighting choreography was decent, it wasn't, but the fact that fans started generating petitions and the fact that the quality of the animation made it to the national news (!) is just exaggerating it too much and blowing things out of proportion.
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Doctor. wrote:
FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
The problem wasn't killing an enemy, it was taking fights seriously from the start and not treating everything like a test for himself. It didn't "force" a flaw onto him, that flaw existed in-series. That also ignores the plain and simple fact that Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans. As such they value their ability and skill as a singular warrior above all else. So of course they'd hate the idea of having to work together, especially as a good chunk of their relationship is competitive toward one another.
His overconfidence was already a problem that was addressed with his training with Mr. Popo. Later in the Namek arc, Goku scolds Burter and Jeice for letting their guards down and being so cocky. In Battle of Gods, he's rightfully cocky because he's one of the strongest in the universe but he quickly humbles himself the moment he loses. But now suddenly he's cocky again? This is character regression, the series has plenty of character regression but that doesn't mean we should tolerate it.
It doesn't matter if they're Saiyans. The movie starts off with their training and says that together they could be a force to be reckoned with. We, as the audience, then expect to see a threat where Goku and Vegeta can only win if they put aside their differences and learn to work together, or at least agree to work together in the future if the time ever demands for it. This doesn't happen. The movie opens up character flaws and then never bothers to address them. There is zero character development in this movie. There are only forced flaws that are somewhat quickly resolved to give off the illusion of character development.
I tend to lean towards the position that there was room for character development in Fukkatsu no F which went partially (or mostly) wasted, but we're talking about a theatrical feature, which all of its typical time restraints, even for a longer one like the recent two. Toriyama said in the build-up for Fukkatsu no F that this time around he wanted a lot more fighting time than in BoG, and within just one Movie or Special you can't have both (extremely in-depth character development and a lot of fighting time as well) at the same time. You need a TV series of episodes for that, and that's exactly the purpose DBSuper is, or should be, serving in the first (previously estimated by many of us) 24/28 episodes it will take to retell both BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs within the series.
On a completely personal note, being a hardcore Vegeta fan, watching Vegeta beat the shit out of Freeza with his bare hands without the help of anyone, face-to-face, in a direct and badass manner, gave me as much satisfaction as watching Bardock finally beat, if not Freeza himself, then one of his ancestors, because of the deep way the viewer, especially a Vegeta fan, sympathizes with, shares and really feels for the humiliation and hopelessness experienced by Vegeta at the hands of Freeza in episodes 85 and 86 over two decades ago (in real-word time, I mean). That alone, that minute alone, made it more than worth enough to sit through the entire movie. But it also goes far beyond that, it features the final, full-fledged return of the arguably the most charismatic and dramatic villain in the whole franchise after numerous cameos in the Cell and Majin Buu arcs in DBZ and in Movies and Specials. It developed upon the potential of Beerus and Whis as a character, especially by having the latter show off his previously unseen martial arts moves while training Goku and Vegeta, going as far as dominating them miserably despite their absolutely massive power and proceeding to point out their respective flaws. It features the achievement/development of a new, further Super Saiya-jin stage beyond Super Saiya-jin God, and it serves the purpose (which DBSuper will complete) of having Vegeta finally not only fully catching up with Goku, but also surpassing everyone who was above him throughout the Majin Buu arc and become the main (co-)protagonist and hero in the franchise, and the main character alongside Goku and, arguably, Beerus. It also shows us and expands upon the connection between Beerus and Freeza, which is a fantastic thing because there are lots of previously identified similarities between them.
All of this will obviously be expanded upon in a much more detailed way in DBSuper, for obvious reasons, and we'll get to see events which happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, namely Vegeta achieving Super Saiya-jin God himself, Freeza training, Goku's and Vegeta's decision to train under Whis, and just why and how both of them decided and/or managed to achieve/develop a further stage by undergoing Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. All of these should be, and I'm certain they will be, given the proper attention and screen time in DBSuper.
It could be argued whether or not deciding to have a respectful chunk of the first full-fledged TV series in 18 years dedicated to retell events which we've already been presented to, with some minor changes and additions here and there, was the right way to go, but if Toriyama just reasoned "since we're going for an entire series, I might as well present the viewers with the actual way I wanted the entire sequence of events I wrote for BoG and Fukkatsu no F the way I originally intended, which I couldn't do in the movies because I had to cut a lot of stuff", then the fans who are still unhappy or disappointed with the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F can still be appeased by the fact that at least it's just the first portion of the series, and we could look at both the Beerus an the Freeza arcs as the build-up to the real, entirely new, previously unseen introduction of a (set of) new character(s), stage(s) and event(s).
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I'm surprise people like the Black Star Dragon Ball arc more then the BOG arc. The first saga in GT is really boring and dull in my opinion. Everything in that saga was very forgettable and has nothing memorable about it. Not to mention all of the villains where dull and forgettable expect for Ledgic in the Black Star Dragon Ball arc. Not to mention the humor is funnier in the BOG arc then it was in the first saga of GT in my opinion. Beerus is a better main villain then Dolltaki was in my opinion.
Except you can't really compare whatever they come up with in DBSuper with GT. GT was made right after DBZ ended, Toriyama wasn't involved, etc., the flaws have been pointed out to death by me and others over the years. For starters, DBSuper is being done as a full-fledged TV series 18 years after the last one ended, and its basically the culmination of the process of revitalization of the Dragonball franchise in terms of new Movies, Specials and TV series after 11 years of inactivity. Toriyama's head is now fresh and, quite in fact, the story in which he will have/has had more involvement in is precisely the 6th Universe arc. Other than the mere two facts that they go outside the planet and look for a new set of Dragon Balls is the only thing linking GT's first episodes to the 6th Universe arc in DBSuper, there's absolutely no reason to connect one with each other and one should under no circumstances or from any perspective try and compare the two things.
Not only will the 6th Universe arc probably be the best, longest (this one is probably a given) arc in DBSuper, it will most likely feature - it would be a waste of potential if it doesn't, considering we're going into an entire new Universe, and just by exploring one it gave us everything we had in DB and DBZ (series, Movies, Specials) in the 80's and 90's - at least a full-fledged evil genocidal maniacal evil villain, increasing the degree of the seriousness, drama and desperation in the series by a notch, it will also probably function the same way the Majin Buu arc did (and in fact, all other arcs throughout DBZ) in terms of how the antagonist is ultimately defeated and peace is returned to the Universe(s), by either having Goku and Vegeta team up as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, fusing with each other (Potara-created Vegitto or dance-created Gogeta, a far less likely scenario) or have both of them be aided by Beerus and perhaps even Whis.
And I wouldn't call Beerus a villain. It's true he's being portrayed in a much darker light when compared to his laid-backness and somewhat comic aspects in BoG, but in the end he'll turn up to become part of the team of good guys, working and fighting alongside them just other previous warriors who were at first presented as ruthless and evil villains throughout DB and DBZ (Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta). Beerus can't be deemed "good" or "evil", he's been tasked with a "mission" and merely sees to it that it's carried out, although, due to his sheer nature and short temper, he ends up destroying a little more at his whims than he was supposed to. After his fight with Super Saiya-jin God Goku he'll probably gain a lot more respect towards the team, just like Piccolo and Vegeta gradually did after interacting with them, and he'll refrain from humiliating them, threatening/coming close to destroying the Earth and KO'ing them mercilessly like he did in episodes 7 and 8, in DBSuper, and in BoG. By the Freeza arc his relationship with Goku and Vegeta, along with the rest of the team, to some degree, will have evolved a little bit, and recognizing (and/ or having Whis telling him about) their potential if they team up and, in fact, on their own, he'll view them in an entire different light when compared to his first meeting with each of them. Beerus probably lacks the same concept of "good" and "evil" as other regular, emotional beings do, he doesn't have an agenda to rule Earth (Piccolo Daimao and his son/reincarnation), attain immortality and rule the Universe (early days-Vegeta and Freeza), kill Goku and annihilate Earth (Cell) or simply destroy everyone and everything in sight (Kid Buu). He's far from being a full-fledged villain, he could better be described at this particular point as an antagonist (although, if one hadn't seen BoG, or it if never even happened, one would be thinking by now he's much closer to a complete sadistic evil ruthless maniac than he actually is).
Basaku wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I highly doubt there's 1% of probability of it ever happening in the near future, in DBSuper or anywhere else, but I would more than welcome the concept of having Cell back at least for a few episodes.
I would've liked that and there's almost perfect spot for that to happen - Age 786, 2 years after EOZ is when Present Cell would've been completed. They could easily pull "he survived" excuse and bring him back, even with additional cells/power of Buu/Beerus/Whis etc.
The concept wouldn't be totally new, though. Far from it, in fact. We've had demons (Piccolo Daimao), genocidal aliens (Freeza), cyborgs (#17, #18, Cell) and again demons/magical creatures (Majin Buu). The concept of having a fighter who had the abilities and techniques and could in fact absorb the power and characteristics of other warriors was introduced with Cell, but it was in fact partially copied with Super Buu (who also absorbs other fighters and takes on their characteristics and techniques) or, if you count GT, Bebi. Bringing back Cell would be awesome for the reasons I specified, but it would be far from an innovative concept, regardless of the ENORMOUS power boost he would get if they managed to add the cells of Majin Buu, Beerus and Whis to his genetic makeup.
The true entirely innovative concept as far as antagonists go (and I'll call him an antagonist, rather than a full-fledged villain) was introduced with Beerus, who can't be deemed "good" nor "evil", is a God and displays comic traits and laid-backness despite being the (second) most powerful entity in the entire Universe, far above the likes of Cell, the Kaioshin, Dabura, Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and even Super Vegitto.
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DemonRin wrote:
Honestly, the complaining around the web about this episode of Dragonball Super is funny to me, because what this complaining really is, is MASSIVE Nostalgia goggles making people believe that a DB property having different animation teams and budget levels from episode to episode resulting in some episodes looking horrid is somehow a NEW thing.
I mean, I'm linking the main site's Animation styles guide (awesome work on it Mike and the Stafffolk, BTW) to try to combat this a bit, but I still end up with a story in my news feed every other day about it. Today apparently is some guy trying to fix all the animation in the episode.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, not gonna try to defend that but, and I’m not saying this makes it right necessarily, however, when you have a long running series like this (which, we know they plan on Super lasting at least 3 story arcs across, so I hear, roughly 100 episodes, so they intend this to be long-ish) it means you have to compartmentalize a bit and stretch the budget including cutting corners in areas, which means some parts WILL look bad and there’s nothing you can really do about that as Toei is a business and can’t dump unlimited money into the production.
That being said, They used to at least try to save the good animation teams for the important bits, and Goku’s first fight against Beers seems like the kinda thing you’d wanna make sure looks decent.... but I dunno, maybe they know they have the rematch when he’s Super Saiyan God coming up and they want to dump their ENTIRE budget into that? I don’t know.
Point is, I honestly see no difference between this and some of the worst stuff Uchiyama or Ebisawa gave us in Z, so it kinda baffles me that we now have droves of people crying foul like this is a new issue...
That's the whole point. DB and DBZ had about 10 different animation teams working on the episodes on a rotating basis, and two of them (especially one, the one behind, say, episodes 6, 27, 51, 66, 84, 94, 98, 104, 121, 126, 131, 144, 148, etc.) had remarkably bad animation. Some of the animation teams were absolutely fantastic (the one behind, say, episodes 4, 25, 31, 47, 81, 160, etc., or the one behind episodes 7, 21, 28, 64, or the one behind episodes 142, 152, 159 and 164), but there was an obvious rotation between the animation teams which resulted in a constant stream of extremely well-animated episodes followed immediately by extremely bad-animated ones, and so on an so forth.
I made an entire list of each animation team behind each episode to fully illustrate this a few days ago either in this thread or in another one.
I guess that if we had internet and forums like this back in the 80's and 90's we would get an entire uproar and the fandom would angrily complain at the first sign of bad animation, causing the show to not reach even half of the episodes it did.
Those animation teams from the 80's and 90's are now gone, after 11 years of inactivity between 1997 and 2008 they threw decent animation our way, especially during the fights in BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but neither the 2008 special nor Episode of Bardock nor the opening and closing for Kai had fantastic animation either, just normal/acceptable. It's the same with DBSuper. Taking into account that it's a series, and presumably a long running one, we should be more than willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper if we were willing to put up with one in each 5 or 6 in DB and DBZ (or even with a higher frequency than that, to be honest). I understand and shared my rage at episode 5 because it was indeed EXCEEDINGLY awfully animated, the art and the fighting choreography were tragically laughable, and judging by the preview of episode 6 we'll be getting some bad animation/art yet again, but I'm sure we'll be back to normal by the time we reach the episode in which Beerus has his interactions + fights with everyone on Earth and by the time he fights Super Saiya-jin God Goku. We should be ready for the fact that we'll be seeing bad animation every now and then throughout all the episodes and arcs in DBSuper. Everything seems to get entirely blown out of proportion nowadays. It's just the internet, and how fast information flows and how quickly people nowadays tend to overreact and make unsupported and exaggerated claims, jumping to hasty conclusions and foreseeing the end of a virtually "unkillable" franchise just because of one badly drawn/animated episode. We're five episodes into the series, so far we've only had one (granted, majorly) badly animated one, and I read some fans foreseeing the end of Dragonball altogether. No major complaints about ANY other aspect (storyline, character background/development, comic relief, etc.) in the first four episodes at all. That's just insane. Even if they threw a constant stream of crap animation our way, the franchise is so powerful and has such potential that all it would take to get back on top would be another one or two fantastically animated movies with a consistent and intricate plot and proceed from there with their plans to continue the franchise with a long-running series after 18 years.
This will and should be remembered as one of the most hasty overreaction in the Universe of Dragonball ever. Let's just get back on track with the following episodes and look forward to what's coming instead of over-debating and crying over something which is far from new. This forum dedicated 30 pages to cry over the animation quality in episode 5 and some fans went as far as saying they were going to drop the series altogether or claiming that they should stop the series right here or refrain from doing it at all, based on this one episode ALONE. That's not healthy, and not reasonable or rational.
Glad to see someone else taking a rational + optimistic view at the whole thing.
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Does anyone have any idea on how many credible petitions against DBSuper are currently in motion? Last time I checked, there are quite a few... Don't know quite to say about this stuff other than what I've already said. Getting tired of this. There's one petition in my country called "This is not Dragon Ball", and the supposed fans' outrage made it to the national f****** news (!), wrongly stating that the fans are angry not only at the animation of the entire series, but at its plot and overall quality in general.
I mean, let's all make the following exercise: let's get back to a few days before, when episode 5 and its subsequent horrible animation was shown. Was anybody really annoyed or disappointed at ANY aspect of DBSuper? On the contrary, pretty much everyone was hyped. Unless they throw us the same garbage of episode 5 in every single episode for the rest of the series, I'll always think this is being completely blown out of proportion.
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I mean, it feels like everyone - including the fans - was greedily waiting for the FIRST big mistake in the series to lash out at DBSuper's supposed flaws. That's partially the feeling I get. Up until now, everybody was just commenting on the first four episodes and debating a number of issues surrounding the plot, storyline, timing, character development, etc., everyone was hyped, the only instance of disappointment was at the fact that the first two arcs were going to be/are being dedicated to the retelling of the events of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in pretty much the exact same circumstances expect for a few minor changes and additions when compared to the movies, but even that was supposed to be at least accepted by the ones having a harder time overcoming their disappointment.
All of a sudden, it's like "This is not Dragon Ball", "DRAGONBALL IS OVER", "F*** TOEI", petitions all over the world lashing out at Toei. Just because of one awfully animated episode. We used to get one out of 5 or 6, or even more frequently than that, throughout DB and DBZ in the 80's and 90's. I'll repeat myself on the issue. If we were willing to put up with EXTREMELY badly animated/drawn episodes in DB and DBZ due to the rotating dynamics of the animation teams behind each episode, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in DBSuper in every 6 or 7. This is not a movie, this is a series, with both its benefits (longer time to expand on the characters' stories and backgrounds, more fighting time, longer run, more content) and disadvantages (lesser budget, lower animation quality).
It's like a few days ago Dragonball was as healthy as it could be, and because of ONE episode the world is going to end. I mean, the episode WAS horrendously badly animated, the art was laughable, the fighting choreography was utterly atrocious, but this is ONE episode, we're 5 into a series that has just started airing less than a month ago. What the hell is all this about? I know it's 2015, but Dragonball's best quality, that which made it fantastic, was never its animation quality. Some of the animation teams were exceptional, most of them were average, some of them were miserable. It had to do with fighting choreography, violence, drama, seriousness, values, relationships, life lessons, desperate circumstances, storyline, plot, character development and background. I'm personally more than willing to put aside episode 5 and view it as a temporary and separate event, a forgettable screw-up among a virtually infinite and limitless number of fantastic possibilities for past, present and future events both within the Universe of Dragonball and for the real world surrounding it. Dragonball is "unkillable", its potential is virtually limitless, let's get our collective shit together, look forward to the next episode(s) and arcs and enjoy the f****** series just like we welcomed the revitalization of DBZ with open arms (Tarble Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, Golden Freeza). Are general fans THAT weak or THAT insane that all it takes for them to threaten to drop the first series in 18 years (!) altogether is ONE episode?
Look at the animation teams behind DB and DBZ. DB had 153 episodes, DBZ had 291. Out of those, over half of them had average-to-subpar animation. Only about third of them had two or three fantastic animation teams behind them. I have the entire list of rotating animation teams, I even posted a large chunk of it a few days ago either in this thread or in another one.
I wish everyone was still sharing the hype towards each episode every Saturday/Sunday as I still am. If all goes well, it will be one of those events which are basically debated to death and insanely blown out of proportion throughout the internet and the media for a few days to the point of saturation, after which nobody will even discuss it anymore apart from a few mentions here and there. It will be forgotten. I'm confident they won't screw up (animation-wise) the episode in which Beerus has his interactions + fights with everyone on Earth, and the episode(s) both before Goku's arrival and after it, including the Beerus vs Super Saiya-jin God battle. The series just f****** began, for f***'s sake.
Before episode 5, we've had two smooth family-oriented episodes dedicated to (re)introducing the characters, along with a few chilling/mysterious appearances by the Beerus/Whis duo, we've had a third one which should have caused orgasms to any Beerus lover, which includes me, a weaker fourth episode overly dedicated to the Pilaf Gang. Everything was going well, and everything WILL return to normal. It just has to. I bet all I have that a month from now, or a few months from now, we'll be discussing the aftermath of the Beerus arc, the Freeza arc and every single aspect of the episodes and every issue surrounding the series in the light of Dragonball's history and Universe with the same degree of enthusiasm and hype as we were up until a few days ago.
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I mean, it feels like everyone - including the fans - was greedily waiting for the FIRST big mistake in the series to lash out at DBSuper's supposed flaws. That's partially the feeling I get. Up until now, everybody was just commenting on the first four episodes and debating a number of issues surrounding the plot, storyline, timing, character development, etc., everyone was hyped, the only instance of disappointment was at the fact that the first two arcs were going to be/are being dedicated to the retelling of the events of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in pretty much the exact same circumstances expect for a few minor changes and additions when compared to the movies, but even that was supposed to be at least accepted by the ones having a harder time overcoming their disappointment.
All of a sudden, it's like "This is not Dragon Ball", "DRAGONBALL IS OVER", "F*** TOEI", petitions all over the world lashing out at Toei. Just because of one awfully animated episode. We used to get one out of 5 or 6, or even more frequently than that, throughout DB and DBZ in the 80's and 90's. I'll repeat myself on the issue. If we were willing to put up with EXTREMELY badly animated/drawn episodes in DB and DBZ due to the rotating dynamics of the animation teams behind each episode, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in DBSuper in every 6 or 7. This is not a movie, this is a series, with both its benefits (longer time to expand on the characters' stories and backgrounds, more fighting time, longer run, more content) and disadvantages (lesser budget, lower animation quality).
It's like a few days ago Dragonball was as healthy as it could be, and because of ONE episode the world is going to end. I mean, the episode WAS horrendously badly animated, the art was laughable, the fighting choreography was utterly atrocious, but this is ONE episode, we're 5 into a series that has just started airing less than a month ago. What the hell is all this about? I know it's 2015, but Dragonball's best quality, that which made it fantastic, was never its animation quality. Some of the animation teams were exceptional, most of them were average, some of them were miserable. It had to do with fighting choreography, violence, drama, seriousness, values, relationships, life lessons, desperate circumstances, storyline, plot, character development and background. I'm personally more than willing to put aside episode 5 and view it as a temporary and separate event, a forgettable screw-up among a virtually infinite and limitless number of fantastic possibilities for past, present and future events both within the Universe of Dragonball and for the real world surrounding it. Dragonball is "unkillable", its potential is virtually limitless, let's get our collective shit together, look forward to the next episode(s) and arcs and enjoy the f****** series just like we welcomed the revitalization of DBZ with open arms (Tarble Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, Golden Freeza). Are general fans THAT weak or THAT insane that all it takes for them to threaten to drop the first series in 18 years (!) altogether is ONE episode?
Look at the animation teams behind DB and DBZ. DB had 153 episodes, DBZ had 291. Out of those, over half of them had average-to-subpar animation. Only about third of them had two or three fantastic animation teams behind them. I have the entire list of rotating animation teams, I even posted a large chunk of it a few days ago either in this thread or in another one.
I wish everyone was still sharing the hype towards each episode every Saturday/Sunday as I still am. If all goes well, it will be one of those events which are basically debated to death and insanely blown out of proportion throughout the internet and the media for a few days to the point of saturation, after which nobody will even discuss it anymore apart from a few mentions here and there. It will be forgotten. I'm confident they won't screw up (animation-wise) the episode in which Beerus has his interactions + fights with everyone on Earth, and the episode(s) both before Goku's arrival and after it, including the Beerus vs Super Saiya-jin God battle. The series just f****** began, for f***'s sake.
Before episode 5, we've had two smooth family-oriented episodes dedicated to (re)introducing the characters, along with a few chilling/mysterious appearances by the Beerus/Whis duo, we've had a third one which should have caused orgasms to any Beerus lover, which includes me, a weaker fourth episode overly dedicated to the Pilaf Gang. Everything was going well, and everything WILL return to normal. It just has to. I bet all I have that a month from now, or a few months from now, we'll be discussing the aftermath of the Beerus arc, the Freeza arc and every single aspect of the episodes and every issue surrounding the series in the light of Dragonball's history and Universe with the same degree of enthusiasm and hype as we were up until a few days ago.
VegettoEX wrote:
It's completely blown out of proportion by fans who have never actually dealt with seeing Dragon Ball on a week-to-week basis before, are doing so in an era where the social media echo-chamber has never been more effective in regurgitating and parroting their own opinions back at them, have never seen something new for the first time in HD on a monitor six inches from their face, have no understanding of the animation industry, and see no irony at all in complaining about a product they have no legal right to even be watching in the first place.
(And this is coming from someone who did indeed think the episode looked awful.)
I second every single word. I happen to be one of the hardcore fans who started watching Dragonball and recording every single episode back in the early 90's. It was my childhood and early adolescence, I've followed every single step of the franchise since then and have watched every single episode hundreds of times almost on a daily basis for nearly two decades. I too think the episode looked awful, ANYONE with a pair of fully functional eyes just HAS to share that opinion. I've voiced my own anger at the incredibly awful animation/fighting choreography more than once, but goddamn it, it's been a few days and I'm not generating petitions against the series. I've said this before, I honestly don't give two sh**s about who the new audience they're trying to direct the "round 2" of the Dragonball franchise at, any decent hardcore DBZ fan who went through the 90's and is in their early 30's like me just has to realize all of this, put it into perspective and reach the same conclusions we're reaching. Some of my friends weren't even born when DBZ ended its run. There's a lot wrong with the way information is conveyed nowadays and while there is a number of advantages, it comes at a great price when something like this happens. There's no turning back, all they can do is keep up with the series and the franchise and "try not to" screw-up ANYTHING otherwise part of the world will keep generating memes, petitions and mocking jokes about something which they obviously don't comprehend, much less its significance. This has been happening in virtually all areas of entertainment, and by choosing to go further with a potentially partially flawed Dragonball series there was a decisive chance it could affect the franchise as well, but people in their teenage years or in their early 20's, who already grew up in a world of internet and technological commodity without knowing what it is to live without it have no f****** idea what they're talking about and they are the ones disrespecting Dragonball, in fact, just like they disregard and disrespect pretty much all the "untouchable" fictional stuff from the 70's, 80's and 90's.
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Chuquita wrote:
I'm also willing to bet this'll blow over by Saturday night. Everyone will have moved onto whatever happens in episode 6.
Yeah, unless the animation ends up being even partially nearly as bad as the one in episode 5. Two episodes awfully animated in a row? Holy shit, everybody'll go insane. Or on the other hand, they could very well just reach the point of saturation and refrain from discussing the matter at all. Non-hardcore DBZ fans are simply taking this opportunity to basically mock whatever has a reason or potential to be mocked, they could very well just find the next best thing to joke about and episode 5's horrible animation won't even be mentioned once for a while. It's not DBSuper or episode 5 I'm disappointed at, it's a large chunk of the fandom, to be honest. If DBSuper does well in all aspects and doesn't screw up once, I bet you won't get 30 pages discussing a particular episode, they'll have nothing to grab onto to lash out their ill-restrained and ill-placed anger + ignorance combo.
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Chuquita wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
I'm also willing to bet this'll blow over by Saturday night. Everyone will have moved onto whatever happens in episode 6.
Yeah, unless the animation ends up being even partially nearly as bad as the one in episode 5. Two episodes awfully animated in a row? Holy shit, everybody'll go insane. Or on the other hand, they could very well just reach the point of saturation and refrain from discussing the matter at all. Non-hardcore DBZ fans are simply taking this opportunity to basically mock whatever has a reason or potential to be mocked, they could very well just find the next best thing to joke about and episode 5's horrible animation won't even be mentioned once for a while. It's not DBSuper or episode 5 I'm disappointed at, it's a large chunk of the fandom, to be honest. If DBSuper does well in all aspects and doesn't screw up once, I bet you won't get 30 pages discussing a particular episode, they'll have nothing to grab onto to lash out their ill-restrained and ill-placed anger + ignorance combo.
Episode 6 is likely to be Vegeta Bingo Dance 2, I'm hoping that will be a good distraction.
Yeah, can you imagine if his Bingo Dance is animated better than Gokû vs Beerus?
I honestly think that the quality of the animation/art doesn't have anything to do with the particular event which is being depicted. Throughout DB and DBZ, some of the best animation teams worked in filler-packed episodes with no real significance to them and some of the major fights - supposed to be the top of the top event for any male hardcore DBZ fan - had horribly-animated episodes. It's really a matter of sheer luck. Appointing different animation teams for each episode in a rotating basis worked that way in DB and DBZ. It's when you "happen(ed)" to combine fantastic animation with the most significant events or fights that you reach(ed) the best DB/DBZ moments, and there are quite a few.
If they stay with the animation quality of the first four episodes everyone will remain quiet about the subject and hopefully we'll be able to discuss the progress of the plot, the storyline, the characters, the events, the transformations, the fights, the way we're supposed to do it.
On another note, I'm not entirely sure they'll keep Vegeta's bingo dance. Keep in mind that they're depicting Vegeta's character in a much more serious light when compared to BoG, and although even the episode title seconds the fact that Vegeta will be extremely cautious and fearful of Beerus, he most likely won't be portrayed in so much a comical fashion when dealing with Beerus before the latter lost his shit when compared to the movie. I think there's a good chance they'll refrain from the bingo dance. We can still expect Vegeta to react out of character and display a degree of comic antics while dealing with Beerus, but not to the same degree we saw in BoG. The series is throwing us a slightly more serious/dramatic version of the events of the movie, and we saw that in the way Beerus dealt with the planets in the first two episodes and especially in the way he coldly threw that last line at Goku before rendering him unconscious. If one hadn't seen BoG, or if it had never existed, we'd by now be thinking Beerus is closer to a full-fledged villain than he actually is.
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Noah wrote:
godku23 wrote:
I don't think it will. I'm not very fond of it, but I think there's more people that like it than people that don't.
Are you really sure about that statement?
I enjoy the display in BoG, but after a while, if you're a hardcore Vegeta fan, you eventually want to refrain from that stuff and go back to his degree of seriousness and rigidity. I personally would like if it didn't happen this time around. Being extremely cautious and fearful of Beerus and the potential reactions by the others towards him shouldn't make it necessary to turn Vegeta into a ridiculous comedian. My bet is that the bingo dance was a movie-thing only.
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kizuki wrote:
I don't think the petitions are going to do much of anything, even if they made a headline or two out in the news.
This series isn't going anywhere, we'll all be okay. Even after Bejita makes it onto an episode with two left hands. It's all going to be alright.
Again, I'll speak up as someone who's been a fan of the series since 1999-2000, that's about 15 years, half of my entire life: I want to see better quality animation. It doesn't make me less a fan. It doesn't make my "fandom weak." I just want to see something better. I get it, I get it! The animation has never been perfect! Some episodes of DB and Z were God awful. I get it.
I'm a fan, though. Maybe having an opinion on a series I'm not even supposed to be watching is ludicrous, but the Dragon Ball franchise has enough of my money and time in other places where I'm allowed to want to see something better. Something better in 2015, when things are expected to be better. It doesn't make anyone's fandom weak. If someone is saying they're done with the franchise then let them be. Why would we want them? They're not enjoying it to the point where they want out. Okay. BYE BYE, then.
There's a thread discussing how bad the animation was for episode 5. I'm assuming people will do the right thing and post their thoughts on episode 6's animation in a thread other than the actual episode 6 discussion thread. After all, we know 6 is going to be pretty bad. It won't be a sucker punch to the face ala Geno Smith this time. I'll discuss episode 6's plot and story in the thread, and nothing else.
It still won't prevent me from wanting a better looking Dragon Ball.
And when I say better, I mean better. Not THE BEST.
And if I feel like I can't physically sit there through any more horrible looking episodes, then I won't. I'll still buy Dragon Ball merch, read the episode summaries on the main site (like I did through junior high and high school because I didn't have Cartoon Network), and still be a fan, listen to the awesome podcast the team puts out, etc etc. Just not a fan of the quality of animation they're putting out. I don't think that's too great of an offense to the rest of the fandom.
Don't take it personally. When I referred to weak DBZ fans, or not-so-hardcore DBZ fans, I was obviously referring to the ones who basically took the opportunity the awful animation/art/fighting choreography shown in episode 5 presented them to postulate the end of the series and the franchise altogether, generate memes, mock the series and act in a way similar to those who are generating those petitions which went as far as to reach national news. I seriously did want to put a definite end to the discussion on the animation of episode 5 a few posts ago, but I'm replying to you on the matter because I don't want you to think I was devaluing every single fan who was displeased with the animation in the last episode, was angry at it, displayed their anger and wanted better, as that would include me. My views on the matter have now reached their absolute conclusion with the last posts in this page, hopefully I won't be addressing the matter again at least for a few days. We've got a new episode in just a little over 48 hours, let's focus on that, discuss that and look forward to that.
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Noah wrote:
Taskmaster wrote:
Can't forget something that never happened.
How it never happened, pal?
Depends on the point of view. WHEN Ultimate Gohan showed up and thrashed Super Buu, he was indeed the strongest fighter in the Universe ON PAR with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, apart from the then-unknown Beerus and Whis. The true Saikyou no Senshi. But I've always put Ultimate Gohan exactly on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
HOWEVER, and counting only DBZ while adding just the existence of Beerus and Whis to it, in a matter of two episodes he's overcome by a number of warriors: the first upgraded version of Super Buu, and then by Super Buu in his strongest stage, Vegitto, Super Vegitto, and arguably Kid Buu (not to mention Janenba, if you count the Movies).
The only way Ultimate Gohan being the strongest in the Universe besides Beerus and Whis is a DEBATABLE issue is IF we take into account only non-fused characters, but even so, I put Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Kid Buu (who is a non-fused warrior) above him.
You could reply saying that Ultimate Gohan is above SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu (as SSJ3 Goku says that if he could tap into his full power as a SSJ3 he COULD defeat Kid Buu, implying he's at least potentially stronger than him), and in doing so, and setting things up by leaving fused characters out of the picture, then yes, you could argue he's the strongest warrior in the Universe apart from Beerus and Whis (and then, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta, base Goku with the power and abilities of SSJG, base Vegeta with the power and abilities of SSJG, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who are all also non-fused characters). But I don't share your opinion, and I think Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 3 is exactly as strong as Ultimate Gohan and it could be arguable that Kid Buu is even slightly stronger than that.
There's no other possible way to look at the debate without going in-depth into all of these ramifications if you want to make that claim.
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Captain Space wrote:
Not the place for this, please guys. Just recently a thread got locked for derailing into this debate.
Are fans' feelings on the matter so strong and so extreme that voicing your own opinion threatens to lock a thread? I knew about a lot of long-time touchy subjects when discussing Dragonball, but didn't know it was so severe. I wouldn't have written anything had I known it was that serious an offense.
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Well, when two (or more) people engage in a debate and none of them is willing to show the slightest bit of flexibility over an issue, yes, being systematically stubborn can be annoying. Hope he doesn't reply to it, then, because if he does and if his views contradict mine to the point of saying that my position is entirely wrong, I'll have to come back at him, and so on and so forth.
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Let's just forget the whole thing, he probably won't even read it anyway. Carry on with your One Piece vs Dragonball discussion.
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Chuquita wrote:
Just thinking, we never did get a full scan of episode 6's summary like we did the others. I saw a picture of just the top part of the scan earlier this week, but the summary was cut off.
Everybody was too busy dealing with the whole end-of-the-world petition-and-meme-generating crisis arising from episode 5's animation quality to pay attention to ANYTHING else. Just joking (am I?).
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Chuquita wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
Just thinking, we never did get a full scan of episode 6's summary like we did the others. I saw a picture of just the top part of the scan earlier this week, but the summary was cut off.
Everybody was too busy dealing with the whole end-of-the-world petition-and-meme-generating crisis arising from episode 5's animation quality to pay attention to ANYTHING else. Just joking (am I?).
I would've saved the link to the semi scan on Twitter if I had known no one else was going to find the full image. T_T
I actually think if we'd had the full summary scan it'd have abated the rage, or at least distracted from it.
Really? I don't think so. What happened throughout the internet and media in the aftermath of the episode's run was just uncontrollable, nobody would have paid any attention to you amidst so much "horror". I'm just so f****** glad the whole thing is over, it went away just as quickly as it came. Hopefully tomorrow we'll be discussing episode 6's events exactly along the same lines in which we were becoming used to discuss the other episodes along with a quite large list of other issues. Vegeta's "double-left-hand" might just generate a few more memes, though. Maybe that's a mutation. Oh shit, maybe that's the "mutation" they were referring to in episode 7's title! Just joking.
Edit: (there's a difference between making an inoffensive and not-so-graceful joke among roughly a hundred serious analyzes and generating mocking memes on a constant, hourly basis in the context of a wave of out of proportion overreaction and pure ridicule throughout all means of media, just in case somebody wonders I dare to make a joke about anything animation-related only one day after I posted such serious comments on another thread on the issue)
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Vegeta's "double-left-hand" might just generate a few more memes, though.
We see him fall down in that scene so maybe his arm is like that cause Beerus broke it during their fight ?
The way he falls, and taking into account that they're in a boat, either he lost his balance or he's drunk (much less likely, this is Vegeta we're talking about) or it could be a metaphor to the decay of the Dragonball franchise (Beerus being the fandom and the overall worldwide critique and Vegeta being DBSuper). Joking again on this last one, sorry.
I doubt it's intentional or has anything to do with an injury from fighting, it's just a plain mistake and nothing to be blown out of proportion yet again. However, it WOULD be interesting to have Vegeta's hand broken to the point of distortion after having his arm broken to the point of distortion by #18 in the Jinzouningen arc. Hurts like hell.
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I know it won't happen, but just to please the Yamcha fans/complainers and "for tha lulz" I'd like Yamcha to indirectly and inadvertently cause some major event. Like patting the most powerful entity in the Universe in the back as if he was just a talking cat.
Vegeta: "He's Hakaishin Birusu, the most fearsome deity there is. His power is on an entirely different dimension from the likes of any of us. You all must refrain from making him the slightest bit mad over anything, otherwise we'll be in big trouble"
*Yamcha patties Beerus' back*
Yamcha: "Hey, yo, what's up?"
*Vegeta has a temporary mental breakdown and collapses on the floor over Yamcha's stupidity*
*Beerus proceeds to KO everyone on the boat and decides to annihilate the entire planet*
*Goku shows up but drowns in the ocean immediately*
*Raditz is still wondering in Hell why the f*** Vegeta and Nappa haven't resurrected him with the Dragon Balls*
Beerus: "I actually don't give a sh*t about that Super Saiya-jin God thing anymore. This series is over."
Vegeta: "Yamcha, you useless scarfaced dumbass, it would be better if you remained a completely obsolete fighter with virtually no dialogue at all allocated to you. Wasn't it enough that I stole your girl and impregnated her just a few years after I indirectly killed you?"
*Yamcha throws a Souki Dan at himself to commit suicide, but fails*
End of the series, DBSuper gets replaced at 9h00am on Fuji TV by Doraemon.
This was seriously the most dispensable and ridiculous post I ever came up with here.
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shinmaru wrote:
bleed0range wrote:
The more and more I think about it, the more I feel like it's a good thing that so many people are upset (whether rightfully so or not). TOEI and the industry sort of need this as a wake up call. They get away with subpar work and poor animation on a lot of series, but when did it become a huge meme? When they did it to the new Dragon Ball anime. I think it goes to show how special this particular IP is to the world at large (including Japan, of course) and how everyone sort of feels the series deserves better.
Say what you will about the animation in this episode. Yes, DBZ had it's bad days too... but at it's best it was way better then the best Super has to offer. It's not like the digital animation is to blame, they just need better art in general. They could easily create animation that is far better then the original series if they wanted to, they have the tools at their disposal. Maybe the uproar about this episode will have some kind of impact on TOEI and the industry if for no other reason then it's embarrassing to them.
This shows again that DragonBall is loved all over the world and haves a huge fanbase, so I think its normal for some fans to get upset or say crazy stupid shit. In the end its good for DB to get so much attention, good or bad. Maybe some animators will be afraid to get known for bad animation after this tsunami of internet criticism and do their extra best on a personal level.
Yeah, it would be partially a good thing if it weren't for the fact that actually most of the fans generating memes and petitions don't have the slightest f******* idea what they're talking or even complaining about. I'd say 90% of those who somehow complained and kept complaining about the episode's animation to the point of the event reaching national news (!) did so either for mocking purposes or due to some sort of misplaced anger or sense of belonging to the Dragonball fandom.
There's no right way to look at the entire thing other than what we wrote about in-depth in the last page of this thread. It was completely blown out of proportion, just the way so many things are, in an age where most people don't even know what it is to live without the internet and when the way information - good or bad - is conveyed in the most uncontrollable and disproportionate possible and imaginable way.
This won't change anything in Toei's plans for the immediate/medium-term future of the series, the media/internet uproar already went away as quickly as it came, it was just another event of growth of misinformation/overreaction in an exponential way. It just happened to hit the Dragonball franchise this time. Nobody's even talking about it anymore, as predicted, it reached the point of saturation.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
I am disappointed he wasn't around this episode. Also wondering if they may save him in the anime till after the God Goku and Beerus fight? Have them meet up when Beerus and Whis return home, leading to the scenes from the trailer.
Oh, and curious whether or not they'll have Beerus go back to sleep or just keep him up so they can use him whenever they want instead too.
Champa will most likely only be introduced in the build-up for/during the 6th Universe arc, as what little we've seen about him leads one to postulate the scenario that he probably is somehow connected to the 6th Universe (either its Hakaishin, just as Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th Universe - he even has his own attendant much in the same way Beerus has Whis - or some sort of long-time competitor for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a run in which he lost against Beerus, which would explain the obvious bitterness/rivalry towards him, and potential "need" for revenge, just like Garlic Jr. wants revenge on Kami for the latter having prevailed against his father when competing for the position of Earth's Guardian).
I really wouldn't expect Champa to appear anywhere near the Beerus arc, or even indeed the Freeza arc. That image we got of the interaction between Beerus and Champa isn't necessarily indicative of when it's actually taking place, it could literally be at any point in DBSuper.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
I wonder how they will handle the SSJG Ritual and if they will bother to mention Tarble at all.
If they are retelling the movies, to flesh out things better and make it easy for new fans/fans that didn't watch the movies to get into this, I don't see any point to mention a pointless character from an OVA that wasn't released overseas.
The way I've always viewed it, there are three possibilities: either they keep the ritual exactly the same (which requires one additional Saiya-jin, who could be Pan - with likely implications on her conception and age and even the last 3 episodes of DBZ - Tarble, who hasn't been totally discarded as a character with some potential since they actually (re)mentioned him in BoG, or - far-fetched scenarios - Bardock/King Vegeta/Raditz), or they change by decreasing the number of Saiya-jin needed by one, or they change the way the Super Saiya-jin God stage is achieved altogether, possibly turning it into something that is more akin to the other previous Super Saiya-jin stages, which build upon the last one and develop in an incremental basis, also making it possible for Goku (and Vegeta) to reach the stage through some sort of anger explosion + extremely advanced martial arts training without anyone else's help; Goku did mention in BoG he wasn't quite happy with the fact he couldnt' reach SSJG entirely by himself, although he did incorporate the stage's abilities later on (Vegeta, due to his obsessive pride, would probably have the same issue).
If I had to go with the most likely one, I'd go with the middle one: they keep the ritual, but actually Pan, or any other additional Saiya-jin, isn't in fact needed. The way they're keeping the story following BoG's accounts so closely leads one to believe they'll keep the ritual with only a few minor change or adaptation.
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Taskmaster wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Baby was one of the only good things about GT. He might be too good for the new stuff, though.
I this is the only time we'll partially agree.
But GT as a whole was terrible, the fights we bad, the action was bad everything about it was bad. I like to pretend it doesn't exist.
In a way, it actually doesn't, it was stated by Toriyama that he viewed GT as a side-story, happening only in a "what-if" scenario. Regardless of how good or bad it is (and I do think it has horrible traits to it, that it was made in a rush and that it has MAJOR flaws), it cannot be considered a direct canon continuation of DBZ, although there's nothing in the plot that would make it impossible or generate any timeline inconsistencies, which is the case with 12 of the 13 DBZ Movies, Episode of Bardock, etc.
I was glad that everything they've been throwing our way in the last years since 2008, after 11 years of inactivity, basically put an end to the years-long debate and "erased" GT from existence in a consistent manner. I wish they'd do the same with the last 3 episodes of DBZ, thus making it possible for us to view whatever happens after the defeat of Kid Buu as new, direct canon continuations of DBZ happening outside of this sort of 10 year gap we're basically stuck in until further notice. It's just frustrating to know that whatever happens during the arcs of DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. I attribute the unsatisfactory ending of DBZ, and in fact the entirety of GT, to Toriyama's need to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible storyline-wise, due to the obvious and understandable fact that he was already running out of ideas by the Majin Buu arc and was extremely deteriorated after so many straight years of pressure generated by the need to consistently and constantly come up with new ideas for stories, characters, stages, etc.
Even from a pure or aesthetic visual point of view, I actually prefer any of the 13 DBZ Movies and all the Specials when compared to GT, as most of the movies had extremely good animation/fighting choreography despite being majorly flawed in terms of plot. In the same respect and along the same lines, there's no possible comparison between the Tarble Special, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F or indeed DBSuper and GT, whether you judge it from a visual point of view or from a storyline/character development/plot one. All the stuff generated by Toriyama since 2008 was done so with a clear head and with a fresh spirit, and that resulted in the - once again, innovative - fantastic character background displayed in Beerus.
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Doctor. wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
I really hope at least a bit of episode 6 is dedicated to Champa. I'd hate it if he's in the manga but not in the anime until the U6 arc :/
A thing I noticed about DB is that it rarely introduces plot points that have nothing to do with the one at hand so don't be surprised if we don't see him until the u6 arc.
Change isn't a bad thing. A retelling like this is the perfect opportunity to produce a cohesive narrative. If they leave the films with little changes without setting up the plot points for the next arc, then it's a waste of potential.
I'm actually surprised to a certain degree to see how minimal the changes are between the circumstances in which each new character and event is being presented in the episodes of DBSuper and BoG. I guess Toriyama viewed the introduction of a entirely new full-fledged series as the opportunity to basically say "ok, THIS is exactly how I wanted BoG and Fukkatsu no F's stories to be told, whatever little changes or additions were placed into them in DBSuper when compared to the movies are just due to having had to rearrange the plot a little bit in BoG and Fukkatsu no F because of the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature."
The instances of interaction between Beerus and Whis, especially, in the first three episodes of DBSuper were presented to us in an almost completely copied sentence-by-sentence basis when compared to BoG. There are only a few minor changes and additions here and there, and the atmosphere is just a little more dramatic and serious (Beerus' actions, especially that last line thrown at Goku before KO'ing him, are the best example of that).
Deciding to retell the last two movies only 2 years and a few months after they were released, respectively, is a double-edged sword, it has both benefits and disadvantages, and I'm sure they made a careful and pondered decision when they chose to go down this road of following the movies' storyline so closely. I'm glad, though, they're presenting Beerus (and apparently Vegeta) in a more serious/ominous/chilling/dramatic way, though. I've always viewed the seriousness, desperation and drama throughout the later stages of DB and entirety of the arcs in DBZ as one of the fundamental aspects of the series' success.
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It seems that in BoG/Fukkatsu no F/DBSuper they're deliberately avoiding to go down the road of any previous methods to attain massive power-ups seen throughout DBZ, and as a result of that it's definitely a long shot, but the concept of fusing Goku and Vegeta is just too appealing, especially taking into account what we've seen in the series, in Movie 12 and even GT. Although the Potara method of fusion brings better end results than the dance, either one would be fantastic to revisit, and as a result of that I'd have to go with Gogeta if I had to choose just one major character from GT to be (re)introduced in DBSuper. Won't happen, though, and the whole thread is nothing but an exercise of wishful thinking with virtually no probability of coming true, but it's interesting to see just what potential GT, as a sequel to DBZ, had that went wasted with such a rushed and hastily-created story.
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It's normal for Goten to make that claim or assumption, as he loves his father just like Trunks would say Vegeta is actually the greatest. It takes going a little bit more in-depth into it to realize Goku is far from being the strongest warrior in the Universe, which is a good thing because it prevents him from getting too cocky and, as a pure Saiya-jin, pressured to train harder and constantly overcome his (and the others') previous limits.
Just because one is the main protagonist of the series doesn't automatically and necessarily make one the strongest. Goku was at times thought to have been the strongest on Earth (in DB) and in the Universe (DBZ) and will always be Dragonball's main hero, but is actually outmached several times throughout the series (Piccolo Daimao in DB, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza in the Freeza arcs, #16, #17, #18, Cell, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta and especially Gohan in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegitto and Majin/Super/Kid Buu in the Majin Buu arc, Beerus and Whis in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, not to mention Tullece, Cooler, #13, Brolly, Bojack, Hatchiyakku or Janenba, if you count the Movies and Specials, etc.)- Just the way I've always viewed Tenshinhan as the strongest Earthling instead of Krillin (Krillin is Goku's best friend and Tenshinhan does have long periods of absence and isolation, but the latter keeps on training on a constant basis, shows up to stall Cell and Super Buu, was decisively powered-up after training at Kaiou-sama's place - I see the power-up Krillin got from the Namek Elder as equivalent to it, etc.).
Even dividing it by arcs or sagas you'll almost always find someone who is at that particular time stronger than Goku.
The torch was supposed to be handed by decisively to Gohan at the Cell Games, after which it could be argued that they wanted to make Gohan the main protagonist not only by having him become THE hero and THE strongest, but also by having Goku die (the Majin Buu opening and the Great Sayaman saga are the best examples of this), a major move which ultimately failed.
Besides, even if want to make it Goku who ultimately destroyed Kid Buu, you should also point out that the attack he used to do so had energy that, although collected BY him, didn't belong TO him, and he didn't save Goten from Super Buu alone either; throughout the Majin Buu arc, and after it (BoG, Fukaktsu no F, DBSuper) he basically manages to stay on top as one of the strongest warriors in the Universe, but never quite THE strongest (at the current stage, he's surpassed by Beerus and Whis even when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God, and in fact even in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage).
He's the main hero and the main protagonist, not the strongest warrior in the Universe, and sometimes he's not even in the top 3 or top 5 at his very strongest stage.
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Yamcha: "Hey, a talking cat"
Beerus: " 8) "
Yamcha: "Yo, what's up? Did you know I've been a useless character for over two decades?" *patties Beerus in the back*
Beerus: " :evil: "
*Vegeta is on his way to do the bingo dance to prevent the upcoming destruction and to slaughter Yamcha for both his stupidity and worthlessness but suffers a mutation that turns him into a two-right-handed Saiya-jin and collapses on the floor.*
PUDDING ! :twisted:
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Yamcha: "Hey, a talking cat"
Beerus: " 8) "
Yamcha: "Yo, what's up? Did you know I've been a useless character for over two decades?" *patties Beerus in the back*
Beerus: " :evil: "
*Vegeta is on his way to do the bingo dance to prevent the upcoming destruction and to slaughter Yamcha for both his stupidity and worthlessness but suffers a mutation that turns him into a two-right-handed Saiya-jin and collapses on the floor.*
*Puar claims that cats, as a race, are the strongest in the Universe upon seeing Beerus' display and "Yamucha-sama"'s shock.*
*Raditz wonders why the f*** Nappa and Vegeta haven't brought him back to life yet.*
*Goku apologizes for the animation and fighting choreography in the previous episode to Beerus-sama in writing, only to realize he can't even f****** write.*
*Beerus comes out of the monitors and storyboards, rapes the entire Universe (the real one), has some tuna fish, erases episode 5 from history and reruns the 1 minute it took him to KO Goku in BoG in a loop*
PUDDING ! :twisted:
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I honestly find it remarkably funny that Yamcha actually touches Beerus' body in a friendly manner as if he was best friends with him, not knowing he just interacted with the (second) strongest warrior in the entire Universe. It's funny that it should be Yamcha, out of all characters, after so many years of being mocked for being a useless and obsolete fighter. If he had any clue who Beerus is and what he just did to Goku, he'd probably kill himself before having to suffer such torture.
Beerus: "Dude, this you just pat me on my back?"
Yamcha: "Yeah :P Welcome to the party."
Beerus: " :twisted: PUDDING !"
Yamcha: "See that Vegeta guy there? He's thousands of time stronger than me, stole my girl, impregnated and actually indirectly had me killed. I don't like him."
Beerus: "At least he's at a level where he knows better than to pat me on my back. I'll destroy you and rape the Universe for this, do you realize that?"
Yamcha: "Calm down, I was just joking. I would be able to stop you, though, I'm a pretty strong warrior myself."
Beerus: "I'd rather fight that flying f****** cat who's always beside you calling you "Yamucha-sama" than fight you. Were you the one who did the animation and fighting choreography for last week's episode? It must have been you."
Yamcha: "Yeah, and I've done the animation for this episode too. See my scar? It's not even where it's supposed to be :P ."
*Raditz wonders why the f*** Nappa and Vegeta haven't brought him back to life yet. Watches the first episodes of the Namek arc, sees a few pictures of what a Super Saiya-jin is, realizes his power level is tens of times below that of Yamcha and decides to kill himself with a Makankosappo, only to find he can't actually perform it. Proceeds to try to open holes through his chest through another manner.*
Raditz wants to kill his nephew and brother, his nephew and brother want to kill him, Bardock doesn't give a shit about his son, Vegeta watches his dad being martial arts-raped by Freeza and Beerus, Vegeta doesn't give a shit about Raditz, Vegeta executes Nappa, Piccolo kills two brothers with the same attack, Goku doesn't mention his parents once, Vegeta doesn't even mention he has a brother to anyone, Brolly kills his father, Paragas uses his son like a toy. Dragonball is an anthem to fratricide and dysfunctional families.
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Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.
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Hakaishin Birusu-sama ! :twisted:
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That was one BRUTALLY different tale of events when compared to what I was expecting. Totally unexpected. Both the account surrounding Vegeta and Majin Buu vs Beerus.
Weird animation, you can tell they're hurrying it up and they touched this one after the first try, it was obviously pretty flawed in terms of drawing.
They got child-Vegeta's hair right, unlike BoG. :P I'd never expect him to rush at Beerus over his father and call him "papa", but then again I'd never even thought we'd see Vegeta doing the chef act. He seems to have a thing with octopuses, he Final Flash-fried one this time.
That ominous and chilling piece of audio whenever Beerus shows up suits him fantastically, it's really hitting me.
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This episode completely contradicted the sequence they were following. They were retelling the events of BoG almost in the same exact circumstances, sometimes dropping the same exact sentences with the same exact expression, but for some reason they changed almost everything in this episode when compared to what happens in BoG, except the fight with Majin Buu being over pudding. I guess that has to be seen as a good thing, they're being innovative, it's definitely better than watching the same exact thing with lesser quality-animation.
No bingo dance, that went as expected, but a strain of absurdly funny Vegeta moments to make up for it. We'll be getting everyone KO'd as easily and ALMOST as quickly as in BoG (it does seem, judging by the preview, they'll have Beerus "putting up" with their efforts and actually giving them time to try to hit him on multiple occasion), except maybe Vegeta. I knew he going to be freaked out and careful when approaching Beerus, but they went for a radical change and actually portrayed him in an even more comic way than in BoG. This totally destroyed my theory on Toriyama's intentions for Vegeta in DBSuper.
Before he shows up with the food for Beerus I thought for a second he was going to do the bingo dance.
Gotta "update" my list of Vegeta's clothing as well, this time to add the chef vest.
Yeah, things are back to normal once again with this episode, we'll be discussing plot and storyline instead of making it to the national news over the animation quality. I knew it was going to be over in a matter of days.
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They did overdo it with the King Vegeta humiliation scene, and by "overdo it" I actually mean it was f******* fantastic. Indeed, Beerus is being (re)introduced in a march darker light in DBSuper when compared to BoG, it we hadn't seen the movie or if it never happened we'd be thinking by now he's a full-fledged villain. It's like they're playing with his character and with everyone's natural disposition to much greater proportions than anyone had anticipated. The Vegeta vs Bills dynamic has so much potential than the Goku vs Beerus one, especially taking into account Vegeta's character and his past encounter with Beerus.
Honestly, the episode surprised me almost every single minute.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
Majiuub was okay. Felt like a rehash of Piccolo and Kami if you ask me.
Except you can't compare the absolutely fantastic dynamic between what Piccolo Daimao and his son/reincarnation represent and Kami with this rushed "version" of it. It was pretty obvious they were going to have Uub develop on his connection to Majin Buu, despite the fact that there should be none; the fact that he's the reincarnated soul of Kid Buu should bear no significance on the way his body works or on his (in)ability to fuse with/absorb other entities. He's a regular human being, apart from his fighting potential.
dae428 wrote:
I will say that of all the villains of GT the only one I actually liked was Baby and how he was this parasitic being that attached itself to other beings. It was great how Baby was basically kind of weakling but by getting into more hosts he was able to become more powerful. I thought that was a great idea despite the fact that kind of ripped off both Cell's sneakiness and the whole Vegeta becoming evil thing but that's just really a nitpick thing. I will say though that I really, really loathe the idea of Baby being this Tsufurujin thing though. I've just never liked the idea of the whole Saiyajins fighting the Tsufurujins thing I don't know it just comes off as a bit lame to me.
I share the same idea on the concept of Baby having some potential but also being a slightly altered version of Cell (getting his power from others, also seen with Super Buu) and Majin Vegeta (although this time in a non-deliberate way).
Don't know why you don't like the Tsufuru-jin concept. It's basically there to explain why the Saiya-jin and Freeza's armies possess the equipment and technology they possess in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, but I've always viewed them as far too benevolent to actually generate someone who has a wish for vengeance on the Saiya-jin. They basically went for whatever was "new" they could grab onto.
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soulnova wrote:
I can see people going to cosplay Chef Vegeta next.
I loved every second of it. I liked the Chef Vegeta scene much MUCH better than the bingo dance. It fits him better... there has been promotional material with Vegeta doing food stuff like that instant noodle commercial and that song where he cooks.
What stole the show for me was the scene with Kid Vegeta. My fucking god, it was priceless to see Vegeta actually -trying- to stop Beerus from hurting his father. I'm not sure of what he said... has "honor and pride" involved in his lines? Otherwise... woah... He had a little saiyan heart afterall and he completely blocked that memory.
I lost my shit at Buu getting wrecked at the end. Like... they went completely overboard with how Beerus disposes of him. Holy shit.
Nah, he said something along the lines of "don't get too cocky!" or "don't get carried away!". He clearly didn't appreciate the humiliation his father was being subjected to.
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Nobody's discussing the animation or freaking out over it, or generating petitions that make it to the national f******* news or blowing issues entirely out of proportion. I knew that the fuss generated throughout the media and the internet over the animation/fighting choreography of last week's episode would go away just as quickly as it came. It actually reached the point of saturation quicker than I expected. Anyone who knows how information is conveyed in the internet and media in today's world understood that it would be a matter of days until the memes and petitions stopped. Nobody's even MENTIONING the subject anymore. I knew this would happen in a matter of days, but I'm really, really glad to have it confirmed.
NeoKING wrote:
Now I'm starting to see enough of a shift from just being a BoG rewrite. The tone in Super is a tone that Dragon Ball hasn't really dwelled upon much; that being a tone where even with all these comedic villains (Ava and Cado, Beerus and Whis), there's still something there to give the series a darker vibe it hasn't seen since the Cell Games.
That scene with Beerus and King Vegeta was already pretty eerie, but there was something disturbing about the way Beerus handled Buu. I almost felt bad for Buu.
Also, did anyone catch Vegeta's seiyuu's pronunciation of "Super Saiyan God?" Ryo Horikawa (?)'s English talents for you.
That line came a little off when compared to his usual way of speaking and pronouncing the words, but it obviously has to do with the fact he could barely move his muscles in his mouth to talk due to the fact he had been paralyzed by Beerus. He's more mumbling and whispering than he's talking at that point.
I've always viewed the degree of seriousness/desperation/drama throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, especially until the Majin Buu arc, as one of the fundamental aspects that made all those arcs so utterly fantastic and untouchable, along with a number of other aspects, of course. I'm glad that they're portraying each character - and especially Beerus - in a much darker/dramatic/chilling/ominous light. I'm sure that we hadn't seen BoG or if it never existed, we'd by now be thinking Beerus is much closer to a full-fledged villain than he actually is. He's much more serious, straight to the point and less willing to play and display his comic potential than what we've seen in BoG (especially when destroying the planets in the first two episodes, when he drops that line before mercilessly KO'ing Goku, and when he's shown humiliating King Vegeta to much farther degrees than what we've seen in the few seconds of the scene in the movie's version of the events).
Chiki wrote:
OMG
VEGETA MIGHT BE GOING SUPER SAIYAN 3!!
I'm so excited!!!!
He most likely won't, if they do have him transform somehow it most likely won't be into a full-fledged separate Super Saiya-jin stage, but rather some sort of mutation triggered by extreme anger which allows him to overcome the limits of power posed by his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage.
I actually made a point several times in other threads about how likely it is (or isn't) that he could achieve/become able to achieve Super Saiya-jin 3 at some point during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, and at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the movies' timeline - in order to have a particular personal theory on the different Super Saiya-jin stages proven right (the theory being that, if Vegeta is close to/on par with Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and IF what I've always thought - that the Super Saiya-jin God stage multiplies/increases the Saiya-jin's power at his STRONGEST, rather than whatever power he has in his base form, and furthermore it's achieved through an entirely different method when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin stages, which basically build upon the previous one, making SSJG more of a Kaio-Ken-esque transformation/stage than an actual follow-up to SSJ3 - is right, then for it to be possible that Vegeta is as strong as Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin in Fukkatsu no F, his strongest stage would also have to be as strong as Goku's (Super Saiya-jin 3, instead of Super Saiya-jin 2), meaning that Vegeta would basically be following Goku's every step (Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin), although just a little bit later.
If Vegeta is indeed as strong as Goku in his Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages without being/becoming able to achieve Super Saiya-jin 3 before, then the whole theory collapses, of course.
But like I said, I doubt it, and despite the massive differences they went for in this episode - especially when compared to the first five ones, which followed BoG's plot and lines almost on a copied sentence-by-sentence basis and in almost the same exact circumstances, even with the same exact expressions (facial and verbal) -, I think that's one minor/major change when compared to what happened in the movie that we won't see.
The fact that episode 7 has a title which makes the possibility of Vegeta transforming into something utterly new or separate doesn't increase the chances of the transformation, or "mutation", to use the precise word, meaning he'll go Super Saiya-jin 3 by much. If it was a "mere" transformation into Super Saiya-jin 3 they wouldn't be creating and generating all this hype and build-up for it, and they'd probably just use "transformation" in the episode's title to second it instead of "mutation" (not to mention they would probably show it straight away in this last episode's preview already, Vegeta achieving Super Saiya-jin 3 wouldn't be really something entirely new as a concept).
The "mutation" referred has most likely to do with a freak occurrence triggered by an explosion of anger which allows Vegeta to surpass the physical power limits allocated to the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage very temporarily.
Again, the fact that part of me would want to watch him go Super Saiya-jin during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper has only to do with the theory I described, it has absolutely nothing to do with visuals or fantasizing over it, like some do and have done for years; quite in fact, the physical characteristics of Super Saiya-jin 3 never appealed to me too much, and I think it would look awful especially on Vegeta, regardless of which clothes he wears.
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Taskmaster wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.
Until Beerus and Whiz show up, as far as anyone knows, Goku is the strongest.
Well, if you count only the good, non-fused guys (thus discarding Vegitto) who showed up during the Majin Buu arc, he'd be the strongest in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage (although I actually put Ultimate Gohan on par with him when he shows up to thrash Super Buu).
On the other hand, if you count everyone who showed up during the Majin Buu arc, two of the variations of Super Buu, Vegitto and possibly Kid Buu are stronger.
If you want to deal only with character who are alive or in existence AFTER the defeat of Kid Buu, then what I said in my first paragraph in this post applies, and you could somehow make that claim from that perspective (and that perspective only).
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I would expect his power-up to whatever he will reach, if any actual transformation at all, to be close to the end of the episode, and I'd also expect to see him charging at Beerus in his powered-up angry version and then the episode ends, just like many episodes of DBZ which ended in dramatic circumstances and/or when a warrior is charging at another, to build up tension and expectation for the next episode.
I think there's something like a 15% probability that he'll go Super Saiya-jin 3. That's my rough estimate.
Keep in mind that the episode title specifically refers to a "mutation", not a "transformation". I'd say the most likely scenario is that his anger over Beerus hitting Bulma will cause him to surpass the natural physical limits imposed to his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, going beyond what was supposed to be the stage's maximum level of power achievable. Part of me would like to see Vegeta turn Super Saiya-jin 3, or at least become potentially able to achieve the stage, for the reasons I specified before, but also for the reasons I specified before, another part of me doesn't. And I think it won't happen.
It's just going to be a temporary abnormal power-up instead of an actual physical transformation.
One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post on the matter was the fact that it would be kind of weird to undergo a transformation into Super Saiya-jin 3 as it is suggested that it's a particular SSJ transformation that is achieved through intense training (Goku) or some sort of extreme gift for fighting (Gotenks, Goku), instead of an explosion of anger, which was pretty much the trigger for the very first Super Saiya-jin stage (Goku over Freeza killing Krillin, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his own inability to surpass Kakarotto, Bardock over his dead comrades and his inability to fight evenly with Freeza/Chilled), as opposed to the method to achieve Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai (extreme and intensive training) and Super Saiya-jin Full Power (complete mastery of all aspects of the first Super Saiya-jin stage). On this regard, it's also interesting to see that the trigger for Gohan's Super Saiya-jin 2 was an explosion of anger, while the same can't be said about the way Goku and Vegeta both achieve it in the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc (there was obviously no issue over which to have an explosion of anger, so one can only reason they manage to attain it after intensive training).
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Taskmaster wrote:
No they assume Goku is the strongest Before, during and AFTER Buu (and this series is just a few months after Buu)
And because we don't know about all this hoopla you want to make (Gohan clearly has his Powerup in the preview for next episode), let's just stick to what they have told us.
Goku is #1
I've replied to you on the matter several times on another thread. The only way Goku COULD be called the strongest warrior there is is if you count only non-fused characters who are IN EXISTENCE (as in, still around) during the period after the defeat of Kid Buu and before Beerus and Whis arrive, in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, and even then I've always put Ultimate Gohan on par with him, at least when he showed up to thrash Super Buu. Before that, there are the events of the Majin Buu arc, and I'll address that in the subsequent paragraph.
Saying he's the strongest before or during the Majin Buu saga is a complete mistake. Even restricting the analysis to that arc only, there are two - the strongest - versions of Super Buu, Vegitto and perhaps even Kid Buu; all of them surpass Goku.
After Beerus and Whis show up, he's far from being the strongest in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, and even when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God - and even Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin - he's still below both of them.
Just because he is and always will be the main protagonist and the main hero of the series doesn't mean he's necessarily and automatically the strongest. The torch was supposed to have been passed decisively to Gohan at the Cell Games, and they even had Goku killed to facilitate the transition; they deliberately wanted to make Gohan the new main protagonist of DBZ, and that can be seen by the Great Sayaman saga and the opening for the Majin Buu arc, but that move was a complete failure; the only moment Gohan had to shine again was when he showed up as Ultimate Gohan and thrashed Super Buu, only to be, again, outmatched in a matter of two episodes; they even had Goku be again the one to finish off the main villain again, despite not being by himself power enough to have done so (although the attack he used was made up of energy collected BY him, it didn't belong TO him, he would never been able to defeat Kid Buu by himself alone).
HybridSaiyan wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Beerus and Buu fight was brilliant!
So Beerus spinning Buu like a cowgirl in kiddy cartoon style was brilliant? I was laughing while watching it.
The way he absolutely THRASHES fat Majin Buu was, for lack of a better word, brutal, or violent. He destroyed him mercilessly, just like he dramatically and brutally KO'd Goku with two martial arts moves (and not so much a simple masterfully-applied pressure-point attack to the neck seen in the movie, which shows the contrast in terms of how he's been portrayed in a much more serious and dramatic way in DBSuper when compared to BoG - he mercilessly destroys planets, humilates King Vegeta to much deeper proportions and even throws a badass line at Goku before brutally rendering him unconscious).
Rukura wrote:
Here's something that's been bending my brain a bit:
Piccolo is fused with the previous God of Earth. Because of that, he was able to sense Kaioshin as being of a higher rank in the god hierarchy. And both Kaio and Kaioshin can sense what Beerus was up to. (I recall Kaio saying something along the lines of being glad Goku can't sense gods)
Yet here's Beerus and neither Piccolo nor Dende, theoretically gods that can sense other gods, know that anything is up with him.
Am I missing something here?
Kami is a deity but he's just the Guardian (God) of one planet. He knows about Kaiou-sama, but has never met him. Kaiou-sama KNOWS about the Kaioshin, but never met them. Piccolo obviously knows about the Kaioshin as well in the World Tournament saga, and also obviously never met him. Beerus is so high in the hierarchy of Gods that only Kaiou-sama or Kaioshin even KNOW about him (and actually interacted with him in the past, due to Beerus' laid-backness and the fact that he has no problem showing himself to virtually anyone in the "lower realms". Piccolo (as in, possessing Kami's knowledge) is too low a "deity" to know about Beerus and Whis, he's just as clueless as to who or what he is as all the others - except Vegeta, the Kaioshin and Kaiou-sama - are.
rereboy wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
The series never became serious until Piccolo Daimo show up in my opinion.
And the Piccolo Daimao arc is arguably more serious and dark than even the Z arcs. Besides the shift in focus of tone, we had the first deaths of the main cast and the Dragon Balls were destroyed without us having any idea of how possibly that could be fixed. In Z, before the Dragon Balls were destroyed, we had already heard from Vegeta that there were probably other Dragon Balls in Namek and after that there was never a moment with at least one set of Dragon Balls working.
Exactly, the appearance of Piccolo Daimao pretty much marks the slight (or not so slight) but decisive shift in the road DB was taking. Toriyama himself admitted that he wanted to introduce a true villain, someone psychotic and absolutely evil, who would kill and torture for please, the first, real, TRUE enemy, villain and nemesis for Goku and the other good guys. The move was a complete success. My kanji says it all. Even though we understandably still see a number of comic instances in the arc itself, the whole atmosphere surrounding Piccolo Daimao and his rampage of killing, enslaving and murdering plus the fact that he was for a long sequence of episodes thought by Muten Roshi to be a legendary invincible opponent to the point of causing him shock and sending shivers down his spine upon seeing his symbol for the first time in episode 102 of DB is comparable to the arcs in DBZ in terms of seriousness and drama (and in some cases, superior to some of them), although in DB we're restricted to Earth, while in DBZ we explore space, with genocidal maniacal ruthless aliens, insanely powerful cyborgs, demons and magical creatures, while the same concept of supposed villain invincibility (Vegeta, Freeza - especially -, #17 and #18, Cell) is repeated until some sort of insane power-up is finally achieved by someone to overcome the strongest of main villain once and for all (Goku only overcomes his episodes-long inability to come even close to Freeza by undergoing a dramatic first Super Saiya-jin transformation, Gohan only overcomes Cell by losing it and going Super Saiya-jin 2).
On the whole seriousness/desperation/drama element present in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs, I've always viewed it as a fundamental aspect of what made DBZ so great and fantastic (to me, personally, and to a lot of fans, presumably) and a step forward when compared to the entirety of DB, but that's just me and it depends on what each one wants to see in a show. Hardcore male fans tend to put more emphasis on the fighting choreography, on badass scenes of powering-up and major beatings, blood and guts, violence, martial arts combined with manipulation of Ki that make up for probably the most unreal and fantastic fights anime has ever seen.
DB was 70% comic and 30% serious, DBZ was more like 90% serious and 10% comic. I mean, there's REAL violence, deaths, genocide, hopeless circumstances, blood and guts, especially between the introduction of Piccolo Daimao until the end of the Cell arc, with the highest peak of seriousness and violence probably reached in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs.
However, even if you're like me, a fan of Dragonball for over two decades, in your early 30's, having watched and recorded every single episode of DB and DBZ as it originally ran back in the 80's and 90's, having followed every single step of the franchise then, possessing quite a respectable amount of Dragonball merchandise, DVDs and manga, and having watched every single episode of DBZ hundreds of times over the years almost on a daily basis to the point where you find yourself able to understand almost everything uttered by the characters in Japanese without needing subtitles, you're bound to understand that there was indeed humor and sometimes even the nonsensical randomness in DBZ that also generated a lot of laughs in DB, and sometimes they don't come in the episodes in-between major arcs, they're thrown in in the middle of the seriousness and drama.
You're not obligated to like every single aspect of Dragonball, and you're entitled to criticize some of its debatable flaws, but DBZ was about character development, seriousness, insane fighting, values, drama, desperation, hopelessness and a few instances of comic relief/randomness. The less serious arc in all of DBZ is the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas after so many years of having consistently, constantly and incessantly to put up with the pressure of delivering major plots, character backgrounds and fantastic fighting and its respective build-up. It's understandable, but that's why he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible and why throughout the Majin Buu arc you already start to see some of the lack of tension and silliness that some fans criticize in GT or DBSuper.
DBSuper is not DB, nor is it DBZ. It's being made 18 years after the last series ended, and as such it has to be seen and analyzed in a entirely different light, even taking into account the sheer passage of time; they went for a focus on exploring the comic aspect of most characters (especially Vegeta, in this episode) and we can't blame them. They're entitled to make their own decisions plot-wise. DBSuper does indeed have flaws and shortcomings, but it would be inconceivable to have it as a successful honorable direct continuation to DBZ if you went for it thinking it would be as serious and dramatic as all the arcs in DBZ were; I'm a hardcore fan of insane fighting and desperate/hopeless/dramatic/serious circumstances, but I still get hyped every single time I even think about DBSuper and I have orgasms while I'm watching each episode as it's airing in Japan, but animation-wise, and also from a point of view of fighting choreography and character development, it's nowhere near DBZ and doesn't pretend to be. The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ is 80's and 90's stuff, iconic, unforgettable, untouchable. It should be surprising that we're actually getting a follow-up full-fledged entirely new series in 2015 and we're watching it on a weekend by weekend basis, and still hard to believe. If they went down the road of creating an extremely serious, fighting-oriented series, focusing on the most serious characters (Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku) and keeping their complete degree of seriousness, a large chunk of hardcore fans would be losing it and having orgasms every day, but the series would also reach a much more limited audience, would probably be much shorter and wouldn't be as available as it has been up until now and will continue to be. It's a double-edged sword. On the other hand, you've got the fans who attach more to the comic aspects of Dragonball, and those have a higher potential to be absolutely happy with DBSuper than the first ones.
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GT should better be seen as entirely non-canon, hence it doesn't even have - or need to have - its own canon status, just like the 13 DBZ Movies don't. They depict "what-if?" scenarios, exploring some characters with some potential to them although with obviously weak plots due to the time restraints typical of a movie.
In my view, canon is whatever doesn't contradict or generate timeline inconsistencies with the series' main, one and only timeline, and as such my list of canon events is as follows:
1 - Bardock Special
2 - DB
3 - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs
4 - Trunks Special (future timeline)
5 - DBZ Jinzouningen and Cell arcs
6 - Movie 9
7 - DBZ Majin Buu arc
8 - DBSuper Beerus arc
9 - DBSuper Freeza arc
10 - DBSuper 6th Universe arc
11 - Last 3 episodes of DBZ
The issue over Jaco/Bardock Special has been addressed before, I'm adding it as canon because the last confrontation of Bardock against Freeza still happens. Movie 1 COULD have happened in-between the end of DB and the Saiya-jin Saga, shortly before the arrival of Raditz, but Krillin is shown not to know Goku has a son in episode 2 of DBZ, when he clearly met him in Movie 1. Movie 13 COULD take place right after the Majin Buu arc, if they hadn't used the Dragon Balls in the movie. The 2008 Tarble Special is still subject to debate, there's really nothing there that make it impossible to have happened, but I'm remaining rather cautious on that one and I deliberately refrained from including it in the post-Majin Buu timing.
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Captain Space wrote:
I'd have guessed for length, yeah. "God of Destruction" isn't terribly unwieldy ("terribly unwieldy" would be, say, "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan"*), but it definitely doesn't flow as well as "Hakaishin"; "Destroyer" fixes this.
(*though ironically SSGSS' name is less of a problem in the dub since they never say it in the movie XD)
The issue with the term or denomination Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin for the stage goes beyond the time it takes to write the entire thing, it's just it's lack of innovation. Toriyama could have gone for a totally new and much more innovative denomination for the stage other than repeating the "Super Saiya-jin" and adding just "Super Saiya-jin" to the "Super Saiya-jin God", taking into account his brilliant mind. I guess what he wanted to express was the fact that it was that Goku and Vegeta turned Super Saiya-jin while in the base stage of having absorbed and incorporated the power and abilities of Super Saiya-jin God (technically a stage referred to as Saiya-jin Beyond God), as in, Goku and Vegeta undergo the process of turning Super Saiya-jin and the result, after having absorbed and incorporated the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God even in their normal stage, is the blue Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (as in, a Super Saiya-jin God who then turned Super Saiya-jin). I've got my own theories on how both the SSJ and the SSJGSSJ stages work when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations.
I've always viewed the SSJ stage as more of a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up than an actual follow-up to the what was supposed to be the previous stage (Super Saiya-jin 3, since it was Goku's strongest stage when he achieves SSJ). As for the SSJGSSJ stage, I believe it's a completely mastery of the SSJG stage with the addition of the natural fighting and tension tendencies of any Super Saiya-jin transformation, while keeping all the benefits of the SSJG stage, along with a slight increase in Ki.
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ArchedThunder wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
Spoiler:View
I can't wait until Gokû and Vegeta meet up in Super.
"It's n-not like I l-like him or anything, b-baka."
He's obviously internally conflicting with the whole idea of Goku being his nemesis and his constant years-long obsession with surpassing Kakarotto and his numerous instances of having become rather comfortable with the fact that he's not going to go to extreme lengths or kill people over the idea, as he was willing to do in the early Majin Buu arc (letting himself purposely be possessed by Babidi to achieve a power-up and killing hundreds of people at the stadium just to persuade Goku to fight; and when they do fight, he's more than willing to actually kill Goku in more than one occasion).
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LightBing wrote:
Something I just noticed. King Vegeta is a redhead...; I'm not sure if he's always been portrayed as such, but that's a inconsistency. All pure blooded Saiyans should have black hair. Beerus mentions it in the episode were he sees Super Saiyan Goku. And we already know it from Vegeta himself from Dragon Ball. This is nothing serious but they should at least watch their own show...
The Saiya-jin's hair is genetically extremely dark, not exactly totally black. Even Vegeta himself is shown to have dark-brown/reddish hair in some shots, especially during the Saiya-jin arc, a trait which he took from King Vegeta, who was indeed portrayed as having dark-brown/reddish hair in flashbacks during the Freeza arc, in a particular flashback of a Vegeta dream in the build-up to the Jinzouningen arc and in Movie 8.
It's not like ALL Saiya-jins have genetically totally black hair, it's rather either totally black or, in some instances, extremely dark but brown-dark or reddish-dark, as is the case of King Vegeta.
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rereboy wrote:
kidhero1000 wrote:
Because these days, it's those situations that has become the reason they train for.
Er... Yamcha and the others were interested in martial arts and in training long before they were fighting monsters and tyrants so, no. Fighting threats is not their default reason for training and enjoying martial arts and whether they are irrelevant for the upcoming threats or there are no threats left, they would still have their default reason for training and enjoying martial arts. Yamcha might not train as hard as he did in the saiyan arc, for example, but that doesn't mean he's absolutely uninterested in martial arts and training. Even Goku's interest in martial arts and training is, first and foremost, because he loves it, not any threat, and Goku would still train very hard even if he knew that there were no more threats in the future.
There are two main reasons to keep training as a martial artist: to become stronger and keep your friendly rivalry with your friends alive, and to keep on your toes just in case a new serious menace shows up. The first reason is used more thoroughly in DB (and seen especially in the build-up for the Tenkaichi Budokais) and the second one is more used throughout the arcs of DBZ, although there's a lot of friendly rivalry too in DBZ, especially characters who don't want to be pushed to the side-lines and want to keep up at least from a martial arts point of view with Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo or Gohan, who achieve insane increases of hundreds of times what their power used to be especially in the Freeza saga. One could argue that the power level of the main warriors develops tens of times in the Saiya-jin, Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, but in the Freeza arcs we can see comparing between the beginning, when they arrive on Namek, and the end, Goku's, Vegeta's and Piccolo's power is literally HUNDREDS of times what it was - that's the real saga where powers just skyrocket insanely and make the likes of Goku, Vegeta or Piccolo simply too far-ahead from the likes of Tenshinhan, Krillin or Yamcha, who are and remain for the rest of the series in an entirely different, much lower tier.
However, and going back to what both of you said a little more, even if you are - and KNOW that you are - completely outclassed an simply nowhere near Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo or any of the main villains throughout the arcs, you, because of your character or your history/background, simply have an interest in continuing to train martial arts, just like Tenshinhan, Yamcha or Chaozu do.
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Noah wrote:
Don't you guys find a little weird that Beerus doesn't know who is Majin Boo? I mean a Hakaishin is the opposite of a Kaioshin and even Kais know about Boo, why Beerus don't?
He was probably asleep during Majin Buu's rampages and wasn't informed by Whis, who most likely does know about it. He happened to be awake at times in which Freeza was around, but didn't happen to be when Kid Buu or fat Majin Buu were unleashed on the planets and the Kaioshin. He probably has the same, or even superior abilities in terms of knowing what's going on in the Universe when compared to the Kaioshin and the Kaiou-samas, but given his character, his laid-backness and unwillingness to dig deep into any subject unless at his whim, he just didn't find it upon himself necessary to search through the Universe's history or ask Whis what exactly happened in every corner of the Universe.
Whis would probably take it upon himself to let him know in case it was something that required Beerus' attention, such as the fact that Majin Buu was basically destroying every single planet in sight during his first rampage millions of years ago, which, if not prevented - which it was - could endanger the balance which is mentioned to be needed in the Universe between creation and destruction - that would have directly to do with Beerus.
It is in fact interesting to have both of them interact, since both of them date back millions of years ago, they both share a relationship with the Kaioshin, both of them are/were known for destroying planets across the Universe and both of them are introduced during or slightly after the Majin Buu arc (besides one being pink and the other one being a stronger version of it, violet). On top of that, Freeza says in Fukkatsu no F that he heard from his father that the only two beings he should never cross in the entire Universe were precisely Majin Buu and Hakaishin Beerus.
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sangofe wrote:
It makes me laugh when I read comments like "I'm so happy Toei listend to their fans."... From one episode, to another. Geez, they seriously think that with 4-5 days, Toei could've made a difference from episode 5 to 6? Like, seriously?
They can indeed make some small corrections in the "last minute", even though the episodes' storyline, plot, lines and scenes are all prepared weeks or even months in advance. They obviously won't be able to change an entire episode's animation in a matter of days, but they can do indeed make some small corrections. You can tell that part of the drawing aspect for episode 6 looked as if it had a weaker base, which they partially fixed; it's the fact that it was a partial fix on something which was the basis of it that made it possible to notice that originally some of the scenes were actually badly animated or drawn.
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
I don't understand the complaints of Super comapred to the gospel that is Dragon Ball Z when it gave us crap like Gohan lost in the woods, Gohan making friends with a robot, Goku running down snake way for what seemed an eternity and almost making out with a Snake Princess. Totally edge of your seat stuff right...right?
Compared to early Dragon Ball Z, Super has been amazing so far. We actually get development and learning of a villain before he arrives on Earth, we see Goku completely destroyed. We see a Vegeta who is willing to throw his pride away for the sake of his friends and family following his development from the Buu Saga and we actually got entertaining slice of life episodes.
It's baseless shit like this that really annoys me. First of all, some of those were filler - and even then, they were small moments in between the darker and more serious moments in DBZ where people's lives were actually on the line.
Second :
Compared to early Dragon Ball Z, Super has been amazing so far. We actually get development and learning of a villain before he arrives on Earth, we see Goku completely destroyed. We see a Vegeta who is willing to throw his pride away for the sake of his friends and family following his development from the Buu Saga and we actually got entertaining slice of life episodes.
For the first 6 episodes of Super we got piss poor characterization, bullshit slice of life filler, Beerus being a dick (who cares? we learned almost absolutely nothing about him), an extremely poorly animated "fight" that consisted of Goku punching the air for 10 minutes, & Vegeta "throwing his pride away" was a joke. It meant a lot more when he fused with Goku.
Early Dragonball Z gave us Raditz's arrival in the first episode. We were introduced to a menacing character with a much more fleshed out background and personality than we have yet to see in Super. We were introduced to the revelation that Goku is an alien, our hero was given an ultimatum, a tense & foreboding meeting between Piccolo and Raditz, a very well choreographed and animated fight between the three, Gohan's hidden powers, another revelation that even stronger enemies are on the way, etc.
All of that BLOWS Super out of the water within the first 5 episodes. We had a plethora of new concepts introduced and to be honest the fights weren't as earth shattering as Z eventually came to be, but they were well executed and had an ominous tension surrounding them. Super is treating every character like they are 12 years old and introducing nothing of substance. It relies on exaggerating character tropes we've all been accustomed to in order to make up for the fact that there's nothing really there. Don't pretend like the first 6 episodes have been amazing - they have been really fucking lackluster on all fronts and that's putting it nicely.
I absolutely agree with the ominousness and seriousness of the background given from episode 1 of DBZ, with the arrival of Raditz and his interaction with Piccolo, not to mention the events of episode 2, with Raditz revealing every shocking detail to Goku, kidnapping his nephew, and then, ultimately, the forgery of an uneasy alliance to proceed to a fantastically animated fight which ended with the brutal death by impalement of two brothers, one of them being the series' main protagonist, in a penetrating wave of demonic light, after which he happens to spit out blood more than once and, while dying, reveals to Piccolo that two of his pals are coming to Earth, and they're much stronger than even him, putting their chances at near-0.
These were the first five episodes of DBZ. The background music was fantastic, the fighting choreography was delicious, the drama and seriousness couldn't be portrayed in a better way, the plot was basically set for many, many episodes and two arcs of violence, blood, war, genocide, drama and desperation (in the Saiya-jin arc, in the Namek saga and in the entire Freeza arc there's just as much blood, violence, drama and seriousness as in the beginning of DBZ).
As a hardcore male fan, I regard the seriousness, drama, desperation and fighting choreography as a fundamental part of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so fantastic and untouchable.
However, DBSuper is not only happening 18 years after the last series ended, and 24 to 26 (!) years after the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs first came out, with all the necessary changes and adaptations to the times, it apparently is targeted mostly at a different audience and cannot, under any circumstances, be seen and analyzed in the same light as DB and DBZ in none of its aspects or from any point of view. You cannot and should not compare it, not even animation-wise, and if you go to watch DBSuper with the kind of attitude "I'm going to compare this to DBZ to see if it lives up to it in fighting choreography, seriousness, drama, blood and guts, violence" you're obviously in for a major, major disappointment.
The introduction of Beerus and his previously-unseen character (laid-backness and some comic elements, despite being the (second) most powerful entity in the entire Universe) and the entirety of BoG was beyond enjoyable, it was a full-fledged fantastic movie, but not even that should be compared to DBZ from any perspective. DBSuper is taking on most, or virtually all elements from BoG (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God), and is a retelling of the movie's events in almost the same exact circumstances, with a few minor changes and additions and with obviously and expected worse animation. If you enjoyed BoG, as I assume you did, you'd at least try to give DBSuper a chance before rushing to treat anyone who enjoys it as an idiot.
I enjoy DBSuper and I get orgasms whenever I think about it and the fact that I get to see an entirely new Dragonball episode every single Saturday/Sunday, and this is coming from a guy who values and identifies seriousness, violence and drama as a fundamental aspect of the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, and regards the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs as 80's and 90's untouchable stuff which will never meet its match in terms of overall quality and atmosphere. This is how you should start and where you start from when "preparing" yourself to watch DBSuper, and pretty much anything they've thrown our way recently after 11 years of inactivity (the 2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F). You need to adapt to the times and understand that you'll never see a character spitting blood from his mouth after a major whole has been put to his chest by a demonic wave of light with an ominous soundtrack in the back, in circumstances and in a whole atmosphere of drama, desperation and seriousness. DBSuper is never going to give you that or live up to that, and it's not meant to nor is it capable of doing it.
I hope I've proven that it's possible to both agree and disagree with you at the same time, and that it's possible to view DBZ as untouchable, viewing its seriousness and drama, its violence and insane fighting as the key element, and to enjoy and look forward to and be satisfied with pretty much everything DBSuper has given us so far.
Maybe one of my earlier posts on the subject of DBSuper vs DB/DBZ does a better job of conveying my point:
"The appearance of Piccolo Daimao pretty much marks the slight (or not so slight) but decisive shift in the road DB was taking. Toriyama himself admitted that he wanted to introduce a true villain, someone psychotic and absolutely evil, who would kill and torture for please, the first, real, TRUE enemy, villain and nemesis for Goku and the other good guys. The move was a complete success. My kanji says it all. Even though we understandably still see a number of comic instances in the arc itself, the whole atmosphere surrounding Piccolo Daimao and his rampage of killing, enslaving and murdering plus the fact that he was for a long sequence of episodes thought by Muten Roshi to be a legendary invincible opponent to the point of causing him shock and sending shivers down his spine upon seeing his symbol for the first time in episode 102 of DB is comparable to the arcs in DBZ in terms of seriousness and drama (and in some cases, superior to some of them), although in DB we're restricted to Earth, while in DBZ we explore space, with genocidal maniacal ruthless aliens, insanely powerful cyborgs, demons and magical creatures, while the same concept of supposed villain invincibility (Vegeta, Freeza - especially -, #17 and #18, Cell) is repeated until some sort of insane power-up is finally achieved by someone to overcome the strongest of main villain once and for all (Goku only overcomes his episodes-long inability to come even close to Freeza by undergoing a dramatic first Super Saiya-jin transformation, Gohan only overcomes Cell by losing it and going Super Saiya-jin 2).
On the whole seriousness/desperation/drama element present in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, I've always viewed it as a fundamental aspect of what made DBZ so great and fantastic (to me, personally, and to a lot of fans, presumably) and a step forward when compared to the entirety of DB, but that's just me and it depends on what each one wants to see in a show. Hardcore male fans tend to put more emphasis on the fighting choreography, on badass scenes of powering-up and major beatings, blood and guts, violence, martial arts combined with manipulation of Ki that make up for probably the most unreal and fantastic fights anime has ever seen.
DB was 70% comic and 30% serious, DBZ was more like 90% serious and 10% comic. I mean, there's REAL violence, deaths, genocide, hopeless circumstances, blood and guts, especially between the introduction of Piccolo Daimao until the end of the Cell arc, with the highest peak of seriousness and violence probably reached in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs.
However, even if you're like me, a fan of Dragonball for over two decades, in your early 30's, having watched and recorded every single episode of DB and DBZ as it originally ran back in the 80's and 90's, having followed every single step of the franchise then, possessing quite a respectable amount of Dragonball merchandise, DVDs and manga, and having watched every single episode of DBZ hundreds of times over the years almost on a daily basis to the point where you find yourself able to understand almost everything uttered by the characters in Japanese without needing subtitles, you're bound to understand that there was indeed humor and sometimes even the nonsensical randomness in DBZ that also generated a lot of laughs in DB, and sometimes they don't come in the episodes in-between major arcs, they're thrown in in the middle of the seriousness and drama.
You're not obligated to like every single aspect of Dragonball, and you're entitled to criticize some of its debatable flaws, but DBZ was about character development, seriousness, insane fighting, values, drama, desperation, hopelessness and a few instances of comic relief/randomness. The less serious arc in all of DBZ is the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas after so many years of having consistently, constantly and incessantly to put up with the pressure of delivering major plots, character backgrounds and fantastic fighting and its respective build-up. It's understandable, but that's why he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible and why throughout the Majin Buu arc you already start to see some of the lack of tension and silliness that some fans criticize in GT or DBSuper.
DBSuper is not DB, nor is it DBZ. It's being made 18 years after the last series ended, and as such it has to be seen and analyzed in a entirely different light, even taking into account the sheer passage of time; they went for a focus on exploring the comic aspect of most characters (especially Vegeta, in this episode) and we can't blame them. They're entitled to make their own decisions plot-wise. DBSuper does indeed have flaws and shortcomings, but it would be inconceivable to have it as a successful honorable direct continuation to DBZ if you went for it thinking it would be as serious and dramatic as all the arcs in DBZ were; I'm a hardcore fan of insane fighting and desperate/hopeless/dramatic/serious circumstances, but I still get hyped every single time I even think about DBSuper and I have orgasms while I'm watching each episode as it's airing in Japan, but animation-wise, and also from a point of view of fighting choreography and character development, it's nowhere near DBZ and doesn't pretend to be. The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ is 80's and 90's stuff, iconic, unforgettable, untouchable. It should be surprising that we're actually getting a follow-up full-fledged entirely new series in 2015 and we're watching it on a weekend by weekend basis, and still hard to believe. If they went down the road of creating an extremely serious, fighting-oriented series, focusing on the most serious characters (Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku) and keeping their complete degree of seriousness, a large chunk of hardcore fans would be losing it and having orgasms every day, but the series would also reach a much more limited audience, would probably be much shorter and wouldn't be as available as it has been up until now and will continue to be. It's a double-edged sword. On the other hand, you've got the fans who attach more to the comic aspects of Dragonball, and those have a higher potential to be absolutely happy with DBSuper than the first ones."
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LowRyder2005 wrote:
Captain Space wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
That takes us to the next point: Dragon Ball Z was never made expressly for "children". It was clearly targeting teens or young adults throughout its entire run: murder, genocide, violence, blood and gore were a constant throughout all of DBZ, straight from Raditz up to Kid Buu. The average child, by all means and accounts, is unsuited to properly digest similar themes.
Dragon Ball, on the other hand, is mostly suitable for "children" the way you intend it, minus probably the occasional innuendos and dirty jokes.
This is sort of an odd point, since "Dragon Ball" and "Dragon Ball Z" is an arbitrary distinction; in the original run of the manga, it's all one story. The shift in tone begins well before the "Z" portion starts, and the Buu saga has the most silliness seen in the series for a long time.
You could put it that way, but the "Dragon Ball Z" arc was conceived at first with the express intent to give closure to Dragon Ball and Toriyama itself chose to name it that way. While the seriousness starts already in late Dragon Ball, probably near the end with Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr., it still doesn't compare to what happens in the Saiyan and Namek Saga: systematical genocides, planets exploding, almost overlong killing sprees, not even counting stuff like kidnapping and beating up little children - in excruciatingly graphic detail, unlike the comedy in Dragon Ball - and almost every single beloved Dragon Ball secondary (and primary) characters dying in a bunch of volumes/episodes (even though the Piccolo Daimao saga has still a considerable body count).
Besides, in the Buu Saga we still have a conspicuous amount of really dark scenes and nightmare fuel, mostly steaming from Majin Buu himself:
* The horrifying scene of Fat Buu making Babidi's head with his bare hands (with the manga panel zooming in to Babidi's fresh corpse, still in Buu's hand, blood pouring from the top).
* Super Buu murdering every single person on the planet.
* Super Buu absorbing people with his goo (pure nightmare fuel).
And my favourite in maybe the entire scenes: becoming liquid, diving inside a man and making him explode like an inflated balloon. Body horror which would be enough to rate a single movie TV-14 or higher.
Then there's Vegeta murdering innocent people again, Spopovich brutalizing Videl and minor stuff like dogs and people being shot by firearms. Still, not a story for children in the slightest and well above anything that happened pre-Z.
I remember when DBZ was originally running for the first time in my country the entire debate and public outrage over how violent the series was for little children, even bringing in psychiatrists to analyze just how damaging this stuff would be for their emotional development as adolescents and adults, etc.
Let's be clear about one thing once and for all: DB began as a comic innocent series, but at some point, and for some reason, Toriyama just reached the darkest recesses of his mind and somehow came up with the idea of darker and darker subject matter, and one could argue that the Red Ribbon Army arc (with General Blue and his nazi reminiscence, people and entire armies getting killed, etc.), the introduction of an assassin (who does kill people mercilessly for money on screen) like Tao Pai Pai or the entire seriousness behind the character of Tenshinhan were the build-up to the REAL, first absolutely full-fledged ominous and serious/dramatic arc, which was the Piccolo Daimao one; Toriyama himself stated that all the previous characters were just too likable to be taken seriously as villains, hence he deliberately made Piccolo Daimao the incarnation of evil, a true, psychotic worldwide menace who kills and tortures hundreds of people, including Goku's best friend and some of the supporting cast. He's followed by his son/reincarnation, and the Piccolo Daimao and the Piccolo Jr. arcs share just about the same degree of seriousness/desperation/drama as what would follow. The manga makes no distinction, but Toriyama put a very deliberate line between DB and DBZ, choosing to go in an entirely different route with the introduction of Raditz, by having the story go back to Goku's background, explaining that him having a tail and freakish strength was actually due to the fact that he was an alien belonging to a long-lost race of blood-thirsty violent murdering warriors, setting the scene for something that went beyond Earth and actually reaching out to outer space and the entire Universe, will all the potential such a move has.
It could be argued that that the Saiya-jin and the Namek/Freeza arcs are the most violent in terms of blood and guts (Nappa rips Tenshinhan's arm off, Piccolo drills a whole through two brothers with a piercing wave of demonic light, after which one of them spits out blood more than once, Freeza rips Nail's arm off, Ginyu blows a hole through his own chest, Vegeta mercilessly kills an ENORMOUS amount of Freeza's regular AND elite soldiers in the most ruthless way, Vegeta blows a Saibaiman to pieces, Vegeta mercilessly and ruthlessly executes his long-time comrade by basically blowing him up, etc., etc., ALL OF THIS on-screen, in gory detail). This is dark, gory, violent stuff, and I regard it as one of the fundamental aspects of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so great.
It might be because I'm a male, hardcore DBZ fan in his early 30's who views the fighting choreography and violence/drama/desperation/seriousness as what made the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs so appealing, alongside numerous other aspects, as 80's and 90's unforgettable, untouchable stuff.
The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ were extremely violent and dramatic; we were presented with genocidal maniacal aliens, ultra-powerful cyborgs and magical/demonic entities bent on destruction and death.
It could also be argued that by the Majin Buu arc Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas, after so many years of having to put up with the pressure of constantly, consistently and incessantly coming up with ideas for events, stages, storylines, character backgrounds, etc., which is why we could already see in the Majin Buu arc some of the silliness and lack of seriousness we were presented to in GT, which basically took on the very worst/least good elements of the later stages of DBZ and none of the best elements from any of it. Yes, there are extremely violent instances in the Majin Buu arc (Super Buu executes nearly all of humankind with a single martial arts move, he blows a human up from the inside by liquifying and entering his body through his mouth, he blows Babidi's head up, after which it still moves, Videl gets martial arts-raped by Spopovitch, Babidi literally blows a human's head up by telekinesis, he blows Spopovitch up after deforming his body to the point he bleeds from his nose, Vegeta blowing up hundreds of people at a stadium without even looking at them just to persuade his nemesis to fight, etc., etc.), but somehow the degree of silliness present in the Majin Buu arc just isn't there in the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs (speaking of the latter, Cell is presented as a bio-energy-sucking monster with utterly no respect for any life other than his own, absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans in a horrific way, proceeding to destroy human-filled islands just to flush out #18, displaying his power with an aura consisting of the screaming people he killed through absorption, mercilessly blowing a hole straight through Piccolo after he breaking his neck with a violent punch to the face, etc., etc.).
Does DBSuper offer any of this? No, and it doesn't mean to. It's possible to be a hardcore maniacally loving consumer of the insane fights and genocides, psychotic villains throughout DBZ and still enjoy DBSuper, with all of its humor and silliness. I'm living proof of that. Beerus is indeed being portrayed in a much darker/dramatic/serious/ominous/chilling light compared to BoG (seen in the way he deals with the planets in the first two episodes, the way he mercilessly THRASHES Majin Buu, the way he humiliates King Vegeta to much higher proportions than in BoG, the way he drops that last line before he RUTHLESSLY and BRUTALLY KO's Goku, rendering him unconscious to the point of almost KILLING him), and since Toriyama was entirely fresh after so many years of activity, the quality of his ideas was apparent again after we were presented to the entirely innovative concept of Beerus, who combines comic aspects and laid-backness with the sheer fact that he's an unstoppable Hakaishin, the (second) most powerful there is in the entire Universe, with a taste for both delicious food and blowing up planets, with it being impossible to deem him "evil" nor "good"; he's none of them, and no one's ally, he's been tasked with a "mission" and merely sees to it that it's carried out, with a few instances of acting at his whim, blowing a little bit more up than he's supposed to, but he's far, far away from the likes of Freeza or Cell, or even Vegeta in his early days, when it comes to call him a full-fledged insane, psychotic, maniacal, genocidal villain - he's definitely not that, he doesn't want to be, and is not just different from that, he's rather BEYOND that. Beerus' character + power combo is something entirely new as a concept in Dragonball, and that's also why he's so appealing as a character and why he's been so well-received and praised as an addition to the history of the franchise.
I don't really give two sh**s at who DBSuper, or any of the stuff they're thrown our way in recent years, after 11 years of inactivity (2008 special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F), is directed to in terms of target audience, or the age range or whatever it is. The sheer fact that it's, for more than one reason, a worthy direct follow-up of DBZ, regardless of its level of seriousness, rigidity or drama, is what matters to me, and I don't mind seeing Vegeta acting silly.
DBSuper needs to be seen from a totally different perspective, even taking into account the sheer passage of time and the need for one (and for the series) to adapt to the times and to the changes in the way the world works in 2015 when compared to the 80's and 90's. If you happen to value the drama/seriousness/desperation/violence throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ as its main quality, or one of its main qualities, and you prepare yourself to watch DBSuper expecting the same degree of those factors and condiments, you're in for a major, major disappointment, and that might explain why SOME fans are reacting badly to it. However, again, I'm living proof that you can be a hardcore fan of brutal violence, drama, desperation, genocides, psychotic villains and insane fighting AND at the same time get orgasms just at the sheer thought of getting to watch an entirely new episode of DBSuper every single week(end).
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Sora Saiyan wrote:
Freezas forms weren't true transformations, they were just there to keep his power restricted.
120 million works because of Goku. If Freeza was only at 12 million then Goku would only be at 300,000 which is well below Freeza's first form. As you can tell by Gokus reaction after healing he was totally amazed by his own power, and this was even after sensing battle powers in the millions. He was definitely above everyone bar Freeza at the time.
I beg to disagree. While it's true that at the point Vegeta was being massacred and Goku's healing was complete in episodes 85/86 Goku was the strongest warrior to stand up to Freeza (when compared to Vegeta and Piccolo), after receiving another huge Zenkai after his battle with the Ginyu Tokusentai, he could only achieve that with the Kaio-Ken technique (10x and then even as far as 20x); his BASE power level after coming out of the healing chamber is still below that of Vegeta and indeed that of Piccolo (at roughly 250.000, which multiplies by 10x makes 2.500.000 and by 20x makes 5.000.000); both Vegeta's (both before he received his final Zenkai after Krillin purposely blew a hole through his chest and especially AFTER it) and Piccolo's power level exceed Goku's in the latter's base form. The same applies, for example, in the Saiya-jin arc: Goku's maximum in his base form was 8.000, he could only be a match for Vegeta by resorting to the Kaio-Ken technique (x2 at first, then x3 and ultimately x4). Thus, it's debatable whether or not Goku is actually THE strongest warrior besides Freeza, since he can only fight somewhat toe-to-toe with him by resorting to the Kaio-Ken technique, which is obviously just as legitimate as any other fighting technique.
That's why he says while he's on the healing chamber that after Freeza transformed into his third form that by then it was starting to feel that he was not going to be able to beat Freeza after all (because the highest degree of Kaio-Ken his body was supposed to handle was x10, or, pushing it to desperate extremes, x20, and his previous base power level was 60.000 - 60.000 x 20 = 1.200.000); since Freeza's power level in his first stage is 530.000 and in his second stage around 1.000.000, it makes perfect sense that Goku would say that since Freeza only overcomes a potential Goku's desperate 20x Kaio-Ken (1.200.000) AFTER he transforms to his third form (around 2.500.000). What Goku didn't count on was the fact that after being near-death once again, he would receive another Zenkai, this time from 60.000 to 250.000, which would make a x10 or a desperate x20 Kaio-Ken even more fearsome, but still simply no match for last form Freeza at 50% or 70% of his full power.
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Birusu16 wrote:
I wonder what Beerus used on Vegeta. :think: He basically paralyzed his whole body.
He used some sort of near-absolute paralyzing technique, which we can only assume would only work on someone who wasn't ready and/or able, at the time, to defend themselves against such a technique, which was obviously the case of Vegeta (and probably anyone, except Whis, even if they were in fact ready and willing to defend from it).
mAcChaos wrote:
The Doc wrote:
-I've watched the episode twice, and I'm still confused by the bit of Vegeta deeming Piccolo as a trouble maker. Majin Buu I completely understood, but I'm so lost on how Vegeta just grouped him and Piccolo together as guys who might start trouble. I've always deemed Piccolo as one of the smartest characters on the show.
Piccolo has never been one to suffer foolishness quietly. I can just see him scolding Beerus for doing some silly thing without realizing who he's talking to.
It also stroke me as a little strange that he would identify Piccolo as one of the two guys who were most likely to cause trouble when approaching Beerus. I guess the only was to look at it is that Vegeta sees Piccolo as a rather powerful and proud warrior who could scold Beerus at some point for some of the latter's action(s).
iop890 wrote:
Neshawn wrote:
What do you all think the likelihood of vegeta going ssj3 in episode 7?
I'd give you 6:1 odds. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it happened, but I'm not expecting it.
My rough estimate of it happening is about 15%, no more than that, and that's saying a lot.
I've overexpressed my personal position on why I'd partially like to see it - it has to do with the theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages enhance a Saiya-jin power when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations -, and (I hope) most of you have already read it in-depth and in detail, so I'm not going to repeat the whole thing. It really, really has nothing to do with aesthetics or with some years-long fan wish to have it finally occur, as the physical characteristics of the Super Saiya-jin 3 stage have never particularly appealed to me a lot, and I do think it would look awful on Vegeta, whatever the clothes are that he happens to be wearing when he would reach it.
Going back to the chances of it happening, I honestly think it won't. The episode's title does refer to a "mutation"; it if referred to a "transformation", the probability could somewhat increase, but it will most likely just be a power-up triggered by an explosion of anger which basically comes down to a freakish, one-time occurrence allowing Vegeta to very temporarily surpass the natural power limits "imposed" by his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage without actually undergoing any physical transformation.
That will most likely be it, and I've been proven right on numerous occasions when predicting what will or will not happen in following episodes of DBSuper.
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Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I've overexpressed my personal position on why I'd partially like to see it - it has to do with the theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages enhance a Saiya-jin power when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations -, and (I hope) most of you have already read it in-depth and in detail, so I'm not going to repeat the whole thing.
I'm not criticising you for having in-depth thoughts or anything, far from it, but I just find the phrasing of that hilarious. Like, "Did you all do the recommended reading? That was your set homework, remember!"
:lol: That's not the intention behind it at all. I just like to know that all I write has been read in detail, from beginning to end, by the highest number of members as possible, and there's simply no way of knowing that unless I go around asking, which would be quite ridiculous.
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Zombie, it's not the first time you make it pretty obvious you don't like me or my posts too much, but what exactly did you find hard to understand about the one you quoted?
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Doctor. wrote:
It's made pretty clear in the story that base Goku, without the Kaioken, is superior to both Piccolo and Vegeta. Vegeta didn't manage to keep up with ONE of Freeza's attacks, and yet Goku can keep up, dodge, and deflect multiple of Freeza's, even the tyrant is surprised at his speed. It wouldn't make sense for him to be lower than one million, which is the absolute minimum level he has to be at. Denying this is just denying facts.
Hmm, sheer power level is not the only thing that counts in a fight, a warrior's martial arts skills also comes to bear. A warrior can have an inferior power level than another and still manage to do better in some parts of a fight with the same enemy, depending on his way of fighting, his personality, his martial arts skills, his emotional state, etc. If Goku was anywhere near 1.000.000, when he went for a desperate x20 Kaio-Ken, it would skyrocket his power to 10.000.000, which was far above what Freeza was at at the moment he blocked it. He can't be that high in his base form when he comes out of the healing chamber, and since he can't be that high he's automatically below both Vegeta and Piccolo (who are, in their strongest against Freeza, close to 1.000.000).
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Doctor. wrote:
Hmm, sheer power level is not the only thing that counts in a fight, a warrior's martial arts skills also comes to bear. A warrior can have an inferior power level than another and still manage to do better in some parts of a fight with the same enemy, depending on his way of fighting, his personality, his martial arts skills, his emotional state, etc. If Goku was anywhere near 1.000.000, when he went for a desperate x20 Kaio-Ken, it would skyrocket his power to 10.000.000, which was far above what Freeza was at at the moment he blocked it. He can't be that high in his base form when he comes out of the healing chamber, and since he can't be that high he's automatically below both Vegeta and Piccolo (who are, in their strongest against Freeza, close to 1.000.000).
It would be "far above" what Freeza was because...? The Daizenshuu puts Goku at 3 million, which logically would make Goku's Kaiokenx20 60 million, and it also puts full power Freeza at 120 million, and that would give 60 million to 50% Freeza, which was the percentage he was using the moment he blocked the Kamehameha. Seems like equal values to me. You're denying stuff the story makes pretty clear. Goku was faster than Vegeta in his normal state. This normally, and most of the times, translates to having a higher battle power. Goku and Vegeta's skill are almost equivalent, so it wouldn't make such a difference if Goku was over 3x weaker.
Ok, I see where the problem is. You're viewing and basing yourself on the Daizenshuu guides as if they were the Dragonball bible. It really depends on the source you get your information from. I'm not devaluing it, far from it, I'm just saying that not everything there needs to be taken literally or as fact.
The Daizenshuu guides basically place Freeza's power level in his first form at 530.000, his second form at nearly 1.000.000, his third form at 2.500.000 and then, in his fourth form, it basically skyrockets to insane amounts, tens of times the previous stage(s), and that's exactly where I beg to differ. I've seen other sources putting Freeza's power level in his fourth form, using a third of his power, then 50%, then 70%, and then ultimately 100%, at much lower numbers, and based on that, which I think makes much more sense, my logic is still sound. If you place Freeza's power level in his fourth form at 12.000.000 (and there's more than one source doing it), it means he's at 6.000.000 when using 50% of his power, which happens to be just a little above Goku's desperate Kaio-Ken x20 if you base yourself on the numbers I've specified (base Goku being at around 250.000, Kaio-Ken x10 being 2.500.000 and x20 being 5.000.000), it makes sense.
If you go by Freeza being 120.000.000 at his full power, then yeah, of course Goku needs to have a huge power level in his base form after he comes out of the healing chamber. HOWEVER, don't you find it a little strange that just because of a Zenkai his base power level jumps/skyrockets from 60.000 against Ginyu to 3.000.000 (!)? Zenkais do provide great power ups to Vegeta and Goku here and there, but going from 60.000 to 3 MILLION is pushing it a little, no?
If you follow the Daizenshuu guides as the absolute, untouchable factual truth, then your numbers apply and Goku's base power level must be in the order of 3.000.000 - which, for the reasons I've just stated in the previous paragraph, I find a little far-fetched -, but if you follow other sources' numbers, then the numbers I specified both in this and, more in-depth, in the previous post apply.
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Doctor. wrote:
Herms wrote:
Right, so for episode 6 I've added in the opening Goku/Kaio conversation, the Russian Takoyaki explanation, and Whis' reference to Planet Banna. For episode 2 I've also noted how one fansub group turned Whi's mention of Universe 7 into a Game of Thrones reference.
One fansub group turned the line into "This meat is the seventh most famous in the universe", or something of the sort.
That's how some, or indeed most, fansubs work: they basically pick up on some Japanese words they understand and then make up whatever meaning they want without paying detailed attention neither to the phrasing or grammar nor to the actual sense the translation will make taking into account the story and the character speaking. It happens constantly. In that particular case, just as an example, they picked up the "7th Universe" bit and the "famous/best" bit and turned it something which has a completely different meaning than the actual, proper translation. It's like what happened a few weeks ago, in the second episode, where they made out the number "150" and mistranslated the thing as "power level of 150.000" instead of the proper translation - the one that makes sense - of 150G. I can't avoid noting that such mistranslations reveal some degree of lack of in-depth knowledge of what's actually going on in the story at the moment and in the past, and of Dragonball in general.
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No point in continuing this debate anymore, we could go back and forth on it, I could present my theory, you could present yours countless times and still no one would agree with each other.
I could continue arguing that the reason why Goku, in his base form, manages to avoid Freeza's attacks is because of the fact that sheer power alone isn't the only thing that counts in a fight, and Goku is extremely confident, careful, martial arts-skilled and balanced in the fight prior to try Kaio-Ken x10 or Kaio-Ken x20, while Vegeta was totally outclassed despite having a slightly stronger power level in his base form because he was factually emotionally unbalanced, and in fact panicking over the entire fight and circumstances, to the point of being almost delusional about the whole Super Saiya-jin issue.
I could continue arguing that jumping from 60.000, or 90.000, to 3 MILLION is just too high a Zenkai (Vegeta's Zenkai from 35.000 to something that could rival with Freeza's first form doesn't compare to it, you're basically saying Goku, after coming out of the healing chamber, was about ten times stronger than that, and almost thirty times stronger than Ginyu (!), and that Freeza, in his very strongest, using his full power in his fourth form, is a THOUSAND times stronger than Ginyu and almost a thousand times stronger than in his first form, and I could carry on saying I just don't believe that).
You, on the other hand, could point out the potential "flaws" in my logic/theory just as you did, and we're obviously not going to back down, so it's just better to stop here.
Unless Toriyama comes along and presents us with the numbers, which obviously will never happen, different theories exist and none of them will ever be proven 100% accurate or right. Let each one keep basing their thoughts on what they want and defend their theories, unless they contradict facts and are just too ridiculous to postulate, which isn't the case neither in mine nor in yours.
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Doctor. wrote:
I'm not trying to sound rude here, but the reason I'm continuing this conversation is because your theory does contradict facts. It contradicts Goku being stronger than Piccolo and Vegeta, so I can only interpret it as you being in denial, you say it yourself "I don't believe it", "I can't believe it". Is it a ridiculous jump? Yes, yes it is. But it is what the story presents us with.
Well, if you go with my theory, from a certain point of view, yes, Goku still IS stronger than Vegeta and Piccolo, but with a catch: only by resorting to Kaio-Ken (just like he was weaker than Vegeta in his base form when they first fought on Earth and was able to keep up with/surpass him only with the usage of Kaio-Ken x3 and then, ultimately, x4). Doesn't make him weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo at his strongest, Kaio-Ken is just as much a fair technique/power-up as any other. If that's what you're thinking, I've got nothing against Goku, just because Vegeta and Piccolo happen to be my favorite all-time characters; I don't let emotions cloud my judgment that way, don't worry. I'm just obviously setting my theory on an entirely different basis than you are, hence the completely different results.
dbgtFO wrote:
Come on, the least you could do is providing the sources for those numbers.
As it stands they were mistranslated from the Daizenshuu and DBZ Sagas is the only official product to have used them as far as I know.
Furthermore the "Goku was using Kaio-ken x10 the whole time" theory simply has no basis. It only came about, because of the aforementioned mistranslated numbers and the Funi dub wording it not so clearly.
If Goku was so much weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo and needed Kaio-ken x10 to surpass them, this would have been pointed out by everyone relevant. Instead everyone agrees, that Goku's newfound power is enough to take on Freeza and this is before anyone mentions Kaio-ken.
Both Piccolo and Freeza flat out state, that Goku wasn't fighting seriously and that he still was hiding far more power. Goku agrees and that's when they both decide to fight seriously, Freeza claiming he'll use 50% of his power.
Once the real battle commences, Piccolo states, that there was too big a gap between the power they were hiding and Kaio clarifies to Tenshinhan, that Goku is already using Kk x10. If Goku had been using KK x10 from the very beginning, then he wouldn't have more power to hide and Piccolo's statement would have reflected this like "Wait.. Goku didn't hide more power, he was bluffing the whole time!". Instead Piccolo confirms that Goku did hide more power and that power was Kaio-ken x10.
I never even said anything about Goku using Kaio-Ken through the entire fight, it was never my point, I never, ever defended that neither here nor anywhere else. Don't know where you got that from. I simply stated that, in my view, and based not only on the mentioned sources (which I can't provide you, because I no longer have access to them and I can't find them anymore, but they could have been official or not) but also on mere reasoning, I just find it hard that Goku's base power level would skyrocket from 60.000/90.000 to 3 MILLION in one Zenkai, that there's more to winning/being able to keep up with a fight than sheer power level and that one can potentially do better than others against the same exact enemy depending on the circumstances in which he fights/they fight, and that in my opinion Goku comes out of the healing chamber with a power level below that of Vegeta and Piccolo in his base form (as in, without resorting to Kaio-Ken, which doesn't in any way diminish him as a warrior, since the technique is just as honest as any other and was in fact the only reason why he also managed to keep with/surpass Vegeta on Earth); since after immense training on his way to Namek his body is already able to put up with a 10x and even a 20x desperate Kaio-Ken, I was simply doing the math and placing Goku's power level when using Kaio-Ken x10 and then his desperate 20x Kaio-Ken in comparison with Freeza's power level in each of his forms and especially when he fights Goku at 50% of his power, then 70% and then, ultimately, 100%. Moreover, I ALSO find it hard to believe that Freeza in his first form has a power level of 530.000, 1.000.000 in his second form, about 2.500.000 in his third form and then it simply skyrockets insanely to reach up to 120.000.000 in his fourth form at 100% (meaning 60.000.000 during most of his fight with non-Super Saiya-jin Goku).
You're entitled to your position, I'm entitled to mine, we've defended our points of view, however - and don't take it personally - if you're thinking I'm going to say "you're right" just to end the discussion, you're mistaken because I simply won't do it, and I'm not going to keep blabbering about a point which I've already made in the previous posts.
Doctor. and dbgtFO, I respect you as members and I value your opinions as knowledgeable Dragonball fans, but there simply is nothing else to be gained from this particular debate. We have presented two different theories with enough sense to each of them to make them credible, but in the end NONE of them will be proven right or wrong. As a result of that, let's just leave it at that and move on.
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Noah wrote:
This made me think... Vegeta gets a huge rage boost by Beerus hurting Bulma, so how about if Beerus did the same thing with Videl? Would Ultimate Gohan get a huge rage boost as well?
Well, he did fly a little bit off the handle when Spopovitch "rapes" Videl, so his feelings towards her are definitely enough for him to lose it just like he did numerous times in his tantrums as a child and teenager, which always provided him with what you could call a "huge rage boost". The best example of that was the Cell Juniors' torturing of his friends in front of him, which was in part responsible for his actual, physical transformation into Super Saiya-jin 2.
Vegeta's boost in power in the following episode is a different occurrence, though. The weird thing - hence the word "mutation, I guess - is that Vegeta will (most likely) get a temporary boost in power due to an explosion of anger while not undergoing an actual further transformation into another stage (the whole Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta thing will most likely NOT happen, it would perhaps be a nice idea to refrain from asking the same "is Vegeta going SSJ3 against Beerus?" question over and over again).
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NeoKING wrote:
How did this SSJ3 Vegeta thing even start.
Well, for starters, it's been one of those things some fans have always wanted to see over the years, because it would look "cool" (so they think), and then, after the title for episode 7 came out, it got fueled even further, and THEN, with the scene in last weekend's preview for next episode, Vegeta is shown with blut sparks of electricity from a back angle, which led some people who had already been suggesting it for a while to speculate that the camera angle was perfect for his hair to grow in length during a Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation.
It seems that no matter what you do, there's always gonna be somebody else who'll keep asking the same "is Vegeta going to transform into Super Saiya-jin 3?" question, or asking how likely it is, or talking about it, despite the fact that it ALMOST CERTAINLY will NOT happen.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
soulnova wrote:
I stiI will never understand the obsession with SSj3.
It's beautiful.
Only on Goku does SSJ3 look cool. It looks ugly as shit on any other character. Especially Vegeta.
Agreed. I've said the same exact thing on a number of occasions. The physical characteristics of the Super Saiya-jin 3 stage have never appealed to me too much, and I do think it would look awful on Vegeta, regardless of the clothes he WOULD HAPPEN to be wearing at the time (I deliberately used the conditional because it just WILL NOT happen, they refer to it as a "mutation" in the episode title, it'll be a freakish and temporary power-up due to an explosion of anger which allows him to go beyond the natural limits of the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage without actually undergoing any physical transformation).
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Was it really that difficult to get to the conclusion that Champa was most likely going to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? You've got two elements: a cat dressed almost exactly like Beerus, and has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis, and then, you've got an entire arc dedicated to another Universe; going back to BoG, Beerus does say at the end of the movie that there are 12 Universes in total, each one of them having its own version of a Hakaishin. How difficult could it be to postulate the scenario of Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? Besides, if there's indeed some tension between Beerus and Champa, we could speculate that it has to do with the fact that the different Hakaishins for different Universes compete with each other, or that there's just some sort of rivalry between these two Universes (6th and 7th), and their respective Hakaishins.
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Doctor. wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Was it really that difficult to get to the conclusion that Champa was most likely going to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? You've got two elements: a cat dressed almost exactly like Beerus, and has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis, and then, you've got an entire arc dedicated to another Universe; going back to BoG, Beerus does say at the end of the movie that there are 12 Universes in total, each one of them having its own version of a Hakaishin. How difficult could it be to postulate the scenario of Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe? Besides, if there's indeed some tension between Beerus and Champa, we could speculate that it has to do with the fact that the different Hakaishins for different Universes compete with each other, or that there's just some sort of rivalry between these two Universes (6th and 7th), and their respective Hakaishins.
No, it wasn't, it was the most likely option. But that doesn't mean it was the only option like some people were saying. Him being a God of Destruction of the same universe, being part of Beerus' family/race or being from another universe but not being its God were also likely.
Sure, and I've said it wasn't the only possible option myself several times too. I said multiple times that in my view the second most likely probability would be that he had been the competitor for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a race which he ended up losing to Beerus, which would help explain the bitterness/rivalry between them, and his possible desire for revenge (along the same lines of Garlic Jr. wanting revenge on Kami for the latter having won the race for the position of Guardian of Earth against his father).
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precita wrote:
If I were to say realistically, I would think Gogeta is the only movie/GT character that has a chance of becoming canon. Obviously not the SSJ4 incarnation though.
I wouldn't say he actually has a chance of becoming canon by being (re)introduced in DBSuper, but - in fact in accordance with the whole topic of the thread, along the lines of wishful thinking more than actual probability of it becoming true - he's also the one character I'd like to see the most making a (re)appearance, also because it would bring the concept of fusion back to the franchise. Putting GT to the sidelines as a non-canon story, we only saw Gogeta for about 2 minutes in Movie 12, which is itself non-canon too (like all other movies, except perhaps Movie 9). His counterpart Vegitto does have quite a lot of screen time in comparison against Super Buu. Although Vegitto is stronger, given the fact that the Potara method of fusion brings better end results, Gogeta has enormous potential, but I don't see them bringing back fused characters, or any sort of fusion technique, for that matter, in DBSuper (I'm glad it was mentioned by Goku after getting KO'd by Beerus both in BoG and in DBSuper's version of the same fight aftermath), especially not with the dance method.
It's really a waste, though. At least Vegitto IS canon, but Gogeta, along with a few concepts from GT, was poorly handled to the point of frustration, and it goes along the same exact lines as the entire potential GT had that went wasted by having the story being developed so hastily.
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irreality wrote:
soulnova wrote:
The Ssj rage boost was much more impressive because it made him surpass Goku's Ssj3 without the need to get the form.
Agreed.
… And SSJ3 looks ugly on everyone, even Goku.
Some fans would disagree. I think it doesn't look ugly on Goku, just a little over-the-top, as in, too noticeable, and it gets old after only a few episodes during the Majin Buu saga. However, when it was first presented when Goku showed it to Majin Buu and Babidi ALL of us went insane, and Goku's menacing look upon completing the transformation, with the lightning and the different sound to the flowing aura and everything, along with the original background music when he finally looks forward to Majin Buu, makes for a pretty fantastic moment from DBZ. But yeah, it does get old and outdated soon, so it's just natural we're finding it awful in 2015. The same can't be said about the other Super Saiya-jin stages, as far as I know, and it applies to me personally, they'll never get old, even taking into account the minor changes there are between them (especially Super Saiya-jin and Super Saiya-jin 2: spikier hair, blue electricity, aura flowing at a higher speed, and that's pretty much it).
The lack of eyebrows does make it a little badass and - as pointed out by Gotenks himself - a little bit more like a bad guy, but that ALSO gets old soon. It does look awful on Gotenks (although the entirety of Gotenks has never appealed to me either, in fact, I've always found him a little bit annoying), and it WOULD look awful on Vegeta, no matter what outfit he would happen to be wearing at the time. Super Saiya-jin 3 will soon become obsolete, and so will all the other previous Super Saiya-jin stages, at least for Goku and Vegeta, after they reach Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin (in fact, it would be obsolete for Ultimate Gohan too, since his power in his Ultimate stage is the same, or at least rivals with that of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku).
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soulnova wrote:
I don't like how Goku looks, specially the eyebrows. The first time I saw Ssj3 Goku I really cringed and thought "what the fuck is that". For all the shit I give to GT, I do like how the Ssj4 handled the head/hair combo... but the fur also made me cringe.
Actually, the physical characteristics of Super Saiya-jin 4 is probably one of the only concepts - if not the only one - I like from the entirety of GT, although it does produce a number of inconsistencies and enormous headaches when trying to explain how it's obtained when compared to the methods to achieve each of the other Super Saiya-jin stages (not to mention the whole thing about Goku and Vegeta being able to apparently generate new clothes out of nowhere, etc.). But from a purely aesthetic point of view, Super Saiya-jin 4 is fantastic, the hair isn't too long, there's definitely a perfect combination between "man (or in this case Saiya-jin) and ape", the chest is powerful, the tail looks fantastic. I'd in fact love it if they hadn't gone through with GT and saved the design for a series/movie/special in the future, turning the stage and its respective method of attainment into perhaps the real physical look for Super Saiya-jin God, for example. It doesn't look over-the-top, doesn't look excessively flashy, it looks extremely powerful and is extremely well conceived (again, purely from a aesthetic point of view, because in other aspects it's actually a pain in the a**). And I don't mind the fur at all, there's really nothing (apart from the clothes) that I can definitely say "I don't like" about the Super Saiya-jin 4 design. And that's pretty much everything good I have to say about GT, with two or three other exceptions.
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Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Sure, and I've said it wasn't the only possible option myself several times too.
So...the exact thing you were railing on other people for doing...?
For one, I wasn't railing on anyone, and then, I merely postulated two different likely scenarios before in multiple occasions, expressly pointing out that one of them (Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe) was much more likely than the other one. Whenever I posted on the matter I ALWAYS made it pretty clear that the far most likely scenario was that Champa was just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th. One scenario being 90% likely doesn't mean the other 10% need to be totally discarded, they're just unlikely, but still academically possible. However, SOME scenarios a few fans came up with are just too far-fetched and had absolutely no basis to them other than having been completely made up by the ones who wrote about it.
I honestly have no idea if the way I write or post comes across as arrogant or something, but there definitely seems to be a problem with my way of addressing others, because I'm accused of double-standards and over-criticizing others almost on a daily basis. :think:
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Chuquita wrote:
The no-eyebrows kill ssj3 for me. If he had regular ssj2 eyebrows with ssj3 eyes and hair, that I would like.
Actually, someone pointed out that Super Saiya-jin 3's lack of eyebrows is a direct hint at the Oozaru stage (there are no eyebrows when a Saiya-jin turns Oozaru). There's little to substantiate this theory in, it's just interesting. In fact, when Goku is finalizing the process of turning Super Saiya-jin 3 on screen for the first time against Majin Buu, the image does show an Oozaru who gradually turns into baby-Goku, and in the middle of the "regression" there's a particular stage where Goku looks like the design of a Super Saiya-jin 4).
Some fans love the lack of eyebrows and see it as the best physical characteristic of the stage, others point it out exactly as being what ruins the stage for them.
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Captain Space wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
For one, I wasn't railing on anyone, and then, I merely postulated two different likely scenarios before in multiple occasions, expressly pointing out that one of them (Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe) was much more likely than the other one. Whenever I posted on the matter I ALWAYS made it pretty clear that the far most likely scenario was that Champa was just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th. One scenario being 90% likely doesn't mean the other 10% need to be totally discarded, they're just unlikely, but still academically possible. However, SOME scenarios a few fans came up with are just too far-fetched and had absolutely no basis to them other than having been completely made up by the ones who wrote about it.
I honestly have no idea if the way I write or post comes across as arrogant or something, but there definitely seems to be a problem with my way of addressing others, because I'm accused of double-standards and over-criticizing others almost on a daily basis. :think:
Sorry; it's just you made one post saying "Was it really that difficult to get to the conclusion that Champa was most likely going to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe?" and "How difficult could it be to postulate the scenario of Champa being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe?" So I got the implication that you were saying that that had to be what it was, and that anyone thinking otherwise was being stupid and not making the obvious connection. Then you went on to say "I've said it wasn't the only possible option myself several times too."
Which seemed a bit contradictory to me, was all. Certainly not accusing you of arrogance or anything; if I had to characterise your posts it'd be "thorough".
No problem, man. That's one thing about being obsessive about putting your ideas forth in the most in-depth, well-written, detailed possible way, it can sometimes generate thoughts that look contradictory, besides the sheer fact that two thirds of the posts end up being "huge", at least for most people's standards. I can't and won't change the way I write, though, nor the detail to which I go when expressing my thoughts on a particular subject. I think it's better to make extremely long and detailed posts which address all ramifications of a subject than simply putting forth one-line or one-sentence posts, or simply asking questions (most of which having been addressed before).
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sintzu wrote:
GoldLiger wrote:
Wasn't Vegeta training most of the time after Kid Buu's defeat?
Yes but that doesn't mean he was training for Ssj3 cause we know from the Cell arc he won't use a form that'll slow him down regardless of how bad things look for him.
Of course that doesn't mean he won't reach it in the series but if he doesn't it won't be because he can't.
Vegeta has been deemed throughout the series numerous times a "fighting genius", which can, just for example, be demonstrated by his ability to reach Super Saiya-jin 2 at some point in the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, besides further increasing his power and nullifying the gap there still was between him and Goku by having Babidi possess him and providing him with an additional power boost, after witnessing what the possession process did to Yamu and Spopovitch. Vegeta is extremely intelligent and cautious, it's his pathological pride that ultimately gets in the way and clouds his judgment when he comes across someone who surpasses him after he - again - proclaims to have surpassed Kakarotto and reclaimed his position as the strongest in the Universe. Given how easy it appears to have been for him to keep with Gohan and Goku by achieving Super Saiya-jin 2 and overcoming teen Gohan's Super Saiya-jin 2 power (Piccolo stated that Majin Vegeta, when fighting fat Majin Buu, was even stronger than Gohan was when he thrashed Cell), it could be argued that he has it in himself - both martial arts-wise and in terms of willingness to train - to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 in no time. If Goku could do it, so can Vegeta, and this has been shown on multiple occasions throughout the arcs in DBZ (Vegeta just happens to reach each stage a little after Goku does it, hence the whole "he's always one step ahead of me; whenever I think I caught him or surpassed him, he overcomes me yet again" routine).
Let's be clear about one thing once and for all: no matter what "proof" or theory you come up with to back it up, Vegeta will most likely NOT going to go Super Saiya-jin 3 in episode 7. That doesn't mean he doesn't have it in himself, or that, with a little further training, he couldn't become able to reach the stage in no time. I know it's a subject which has been debated over the years and some fans are pretty keen on seeing it actually happen on-screen, and the stuff that's been happening in DBSuper somewhat increased the chances and hope of it actually occurring, but it just won't. In terms of my theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages go, and their respective methods of achievement, along with their respective power boosts when compared to the Saiya-jin's previous maximum power, part of me would like it to happen, or at least have it made pretty clear that he was at least ABLE to become Super Saiya-jin 3, but from a pure aesthetics point of view I think it would look awful on Vegeta (it has already gotten old on Goku and I personally think it looks almost ridiculous on Gotenks). Besides, if he did reach it, the stage itself would/will be rendered obsolete almost immediately again, after both he and Goku achieve Super Saiya-jin God, then absorb the abilities and power of the SSJG stage, and then go one step further and actually achieve Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
Again, the far most likely scenario for episode 7 and Vegeta's lashing out at Beerus over Bulma will amount to a temporary, freakish boost in power due to an explosion of anger which will enable him to go beyond the natural limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, and since this shouldn't happen, hence the term "mutation" in the episode title.
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Thinking about the way and set of abilities a particular Saiya-jin needs to possess to achieve each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and contrary to what happens in all the other forms, Super Saiya-jin 3 is a form which most likely can only be reached after - obviously - being powerful enough to reach Super Saiya-jin 2, after IMMENSE training, and all of this coupled with what could only be called a natural tendency for fighting, as in, being a "fighting genius" or a "prodigy" (which both Goku and Vegeta have been deemed on numerous occasions throughout DBZ by each other and by their adversaries). It's most certainly NOT a transformation or stage that can be reached by an explosion of anger, at least as far as we know (we've only been presented with two characters going SSJ3, which isn't really a great sample to judge or base our position on, anyway), unlike most others: the "regular" Super Saiya-jin form is triggered by an explosion of anger (Goku over Freeza violently murdering Krillin, Vegeta over his frustration at being unable to surpass Kakarotto, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Bardock over his inability to match the power of Freeza/Chilled, Gohan over his frustration due to being a spoiled brat), the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai stages can only be achieved through intense training, the Super Saiya-jin Full Power form is achieved by a complete mastery of all aspects of the regular Super Saiya-jin stage, and - here's the catch - Super Saiya-jin 2, the one and only which can TRULY be deemed "the SSJ stage beyond the first SSG stage", which is what Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all pursue during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs) can be reached after fully dominating the SSJ Full Power stage, and then either by an explosion of anger (teen Gohan at the Cell Games) OR through, arguably, intense training + being extremely gifted (Goku and Vegeta in the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, and both of them possess the two traits specified).
On this note, since BoG came out, I've always viewed the Super Saiya-jin God (and its "successor", Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin) as a rather separate event, contrary to the other Super Saiya-jin transformations, which basically build upon the previous one on an escalating basis; it's achieved through a different method and I regard it as more of a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up (although to insanely higher proportions) than anything else. As for the stage in which both Goku and Vegeta are in their base form and are still able to keep up with Beerus or Whis, the process has been basically shown as soon as during the fight between Goku and Beerus in BoG and then in Fukkatsu no F, where both Goku and Vegeta manage to incorporate the abilities and power of the SSJG stage, with all of its benefits, without actually undergoing the physical transformation (retaining their base form), which is a stage officially referred to as "Saiya-jin beyond God". As far as the SSJGSSJ stage goes, until further notice I view it as a complete mastery of the Super Saiya-jin God stage, fluxing the particular transformation with the natural fighting abilities and tension typical of any SSJ stage, along with a slight increase in power (basically undergoing the same exact process as when transforming into Super Saiya-jin, which would mean it could be summarized as a Super Saiya-jin God who then turns Super Saiya-jin (hence the exact same sequence in the official name).
I've come to understand that it will take watching the actual seventh episode to make people refrain from postulating the Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta scenario. Arguing against it, or against the odds of it happening, will simply no good, we've got proof of that; some of us have reasoned quite carefully that it most likely will NOT happen and still some fans will keep ask the same question, discuss the same matter and hope it will come true. I'm not saying it's impossible, I actually put the probability of it happening at around 15%, as a rough estimate, and that's saying a lot.
Again, my position is that it's not that Vegeta shouldn't have it in himself to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 in no time if he put enough time to training to catch Kakarotto once again; if Goku can do it, so can Vegeta, which has been shown in multiple instances throughout DBZ (Vegeta just happens to reach each stage a little after Goku does, hence the whole "he's always one step ahead of me, when I think I've caught or surpassed me he surprises me and overcomes me once again" routine). As such, even it did occur - and, again, it most likely WILL NOT -, or if Vegeta was theoretically already ABLE to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 at this point or very soon, it would be the same entire story all over again, since the stage will be/has been rendered obsolete after Goku achieve Super Saiya-jin God against Beerus, once again turning Vegeta's supposed catching or surpassing of Kakarotto an extremely temporary occurrence, following the trend throughout DBZ.
However, soon after Goku reaches SSJG, so will Vegeta. If my particular theory on how the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages increase the power of a Saiya-jin is correct - basically it multiplies the power the Saiya-jin has at his very STRONGEST, instead of his base form - then the only way it would make sense for Vegeta to be on par with Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin in Fukkatsu no F is that Vegeta is as strong as Goku is when he reaches Super Saiya-jin God (hence, Super Saiya-jin 3, and not Super Saiya-jin 2). This is why part of me would like to have it happen; the other part of me doesn't want to for the reasons I've been listing in recent posts on the matter: it looks over-the-top, has gotten old on Goku already in the Majin Buu arc, looks almost ridiculous on Gotenks and would look absolutely awful especially on Vegeta, no matter the clothes he happens to be wearing at the time.
The fact that they are throwing a few changes our way in DBSuper in their retelling of the events of BoG makes the Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta fans who are really keep on having it actually occur on-screen enhanced their hopes a little bit, and the sheer fact that Vegeta is shown from a back angle in the preview for episode 7 led some to theorize that the shot was just perfect for a hair growth in Vegeta during a Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation, but all of these are pretty weak and far-fetched scenarios.
Again, what will happen to Vegeta in episode 7 is most likely - almost certainly, in fact - going to be the same exact seen that happened in BoG: he'll achieve quite a large power boost due to an explosion of anger which will allow him to achieve a very temporary but freakish point in which he's able to overcome the natural power limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, without actually going through any physical transformation - hence the term "mutation" in the episode title, instead of "transformation". It's a separate, freakish and very temporary occurrence, and even the term chosen for the episode title seconds that, in my view.
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DragonHermit wrote:
You guys remember how Freeza was the "emperor" of the universe? Will there be an emperor of all the universes? Which universe will have the strongest fighters? Any thoughts?
I honestly think Champa will start out bad but become good like many others have done in the past
He was the self-proclaimed "emperor" of the Universe, he went around thinking he was far, far above anyone else and was untouchable. It was never a proper title given to him by anyone else other than himself or a few of his followers. In the other Universes, particularly in the 6th Universe, since that's the one we'll be exploring in DBSuper, there might be another warrior/tyrant like Freeza, but who knows? The 7th Universe has Freeza, King Cold, Vegeta, the Saiya-jin, Earth, the Super Saiya-jin, Cell, the Jinzouningen, Majin Buu, Hakaishin Beerus, the Kaioshin, the Kaiou-samas, the Tsufuru-jin, Yakon, Pui Pui, Dabura, the Namek-sei-jin - not counting on non-canon or movie-only characters like Brolly, Tullece, Bojack and his henchmen, Slug, etc.
There could literally be a virtually endless range of possibilities for extremely, insanely powerful warriors (some of them villains) in the 6th Universe, but I'd expect that the deity hierarchy, for example, is kept roughly the same (Hakaishin and his attendant, the equivalent of the Kaioshin, Dai Kaiou-sama and the four Kaiou-samas, below which there's a Kami for each planet, etc.).
It's precisely the fact we know NOTHING about the 6th Universe, which should be just as big as the 7th, which is where EVERY event has taken place in DB and DBZ, that makes the prospect of exploring it so exciting. The exploration of another Universe, along with Beerus' statement by the end of BoG that there are actually as many as 12 different, separate Universes, open up and generate immense room for new insanely powerful characters and villains, most likely in the same exact degree as the 7th Universe, so, yeah, there's probably somebody along the lines of Freeza, Bojack, Dabura, etc., etc., in the 6th Universe as well.
Regarding Champa starting out bad and gradually becoming good, that's actually major character development which was used on Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Vegeta (Tenshinhan goes from bad guy to part of the team after a few advices from Muten Roshi and within one arc, Piccolo started out as the reincarnation of one of the most evil and psychotic villains in the entirety of Dragonball but by the Freeza or Jinzouningen arc his evil has all but disappeared, has become a complete ally to good, protector of Earth, its inhabitants and the one he arguably loves and has his process of transition complete quite quickly, while in the case of Vegeta it took him nearly the entirety of DBZ's arcs to undergo the same exact process - he started out as a ruthless genocidal killer, a smaller version of Freeza, but we can some gradual and incremental change already on Namek, further changes and adaptations in the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, even further adaptations to Earth and his family life in the Majin Buu arc - his possession by Babidi and his killing of hundreds of people at the stadium was probably the last instance of really evil stuff done by him ever - and AFTER the arc the very gradual and incremental process of transition is also complete).
However, I still believe that Champa won't be a full-fledged villain, he'll be shown to merely have some sort of bitterness/rivalry towards Beerus, and for some reason could be plotting some sort of assault or revenge on him (either because he's the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th, and they compete with each other, or because he competed for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, a race which he ended up losing to Beerus, which would also explain his bitterness towards him, much in the same way Garlic Jr. wants revenge on Kami for the latter having won the race for the position of Guardian of Earth against his father). This sort of deities are so strange entities that they can't really be deemed "evil" nor "good", they're no one's allies, they've been tasked with a "mission" and see to it that it's carried out; their understanding of "right" and "wrong" is probably so far ahead when compared to other, emotional beings that it's completely different (not better or worse, just BEYOND), or even non-existent. We'll just have to wait for further detailed info on Champa or for the actual episodes in which he finally shows up to run to see who and what exactly he is and what his intentions could be towards Beerus and the Universe and its warriors in general. At this point he's just far too much of a mystery from certain angles for us to postulate any scenarios beyond the mere fact that there's some sort of connection between him and his respective attendant and Beerus and Whis, with the two most likely theories on that being the ones I specified in start of this paragraph).
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DragonHermit wrote:
I think what Toriyama was going for is that SSJ3 puts tremendous strain on the physical body, so it's a difficult transformation for earthly beings. In the other world, you're basically immortal and you can abuse your body.
Yeah, pretty much that. Super Saiya-jin 3 is so tremendously powerful a transformation that it puts an ENORMOUS strain on a Saiya-jin's body, which was something that couldn't affect Goku while he was dead - whether on the Other World or on Earth during the Majin Buu arc. When he does use it while being alive, he's shown using either for short bursts (if you count the Movies, against Janenba, Hildegarn, Beerus, Super Buu and Kid Buu - in the latter's case, he has a somewhat long fight with him and he DOES feel the eventual repercussions of using the transformation, being unable to keep up with it at a stable rate for a second round). The only other one we see achieving the stage is Gotenks, and one could ARGUE - no official information on this, just fan-made theories, in fact - that he achieves it with relative ease because of the fantastic benefits that come with Fusion, which, in my view, allows the ultimately fused warrior to go beyond the natural power limits "imposed" by, in the Saiya-jins' case, the respective Super Saiya-jin stage they're in (seen when Vegitto far overcomes Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan without going SSJ3), besides allowing the fused warrior to much more easily bypass (or, in other words, skip) the entire absolutely intense training it would take to reach the stage. I highly doubt Super Saiya-jin 3 is something that can be achieved through an explosion of anger, such as in the case of "regular" Super Saiya-jin or, in teen Gohan's case against Cell at the Cell Games, Super Saiya-jin 2. It takes an extremely powerful Saiya-jin who has either already achieved Super Saiya-jin 2 and become completely comfortable with it + intense training + a natural gift for martial arts (a "prodigy", or a "fighting genius", which both Goku and Vegeta have been deemed to be by each other and their respective adversaries on numerous occasions throughout DBZ), OR special circumstances such as in the case of dead Goku or fused Gotenks. Basically, Super Saiya-jin 3 is not for everyone, but if Goku can do it, so can Vegeta. By the time DBSuper takes place, it could easily be argued that not only does Vegeta has it in himself - both martial arts-wise and in terms of willingness to train - to reach Super Saiya-jin 3; while it's true that Goku is "always one step ahead" of Vegeta, even in terms of when they reach each particular Super Saiya-jin stage throughout the arcs in DBZ, it's also true that shortly after Goku reaches one, Vegeta does so too. It's basically playing cat and mouse at a much larger scale: Vegeta keeps chasing Goku, and just when he thinks he's caught him or surpassed him, Goku manages to surprise Vegeta and everyone else by going one step further, which, taking into account Vegeta's pathological pride and his not-so-healthy obsession with "surpassing Kakarotto", makes it easy to understand why Vegeta goes beyond mere frustration, since this happens more than once (in Movie 12, he actually breaks down in tears over his inability to surpass Goku, it's got to be pretty hard on him, no matter how much he trains he's always either just close to Goku or far below him, which will be corrected by the Freeza arc in DBSuper just as it was in Fukkatsu no F - in my view Vegeta is just as strong as Goku is in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage, which leads me to think that he's also just as strong as Goku is BEFORE each one of them reaches Super Saiya-jin God, WHEN they reach Super Saiya-jin God and also when/after they manage to absorb and incorporate the abilities of SSJG while keeping their base form (Saiya-jin beyond God).
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It may also have to do with the fact that Goku is a Saiya-jin (and a particularly gifted one), hence he possesses a natural set of advantages over members/warriors of other races, when it comes to fighting/martial arts. There's the Oozaru, there's the Zenkais, there's the natural tendency and gift for fighting and manipulation of Ki, etc. The Namek-sei-jin, especially the warrior-types, are quite gifted martial artists too, but in general that's not what the race's most defining trait is, but rather the ability to be powerful yet peaceful, the Dragon Balls, the ability to conjure objects out of nowhere, the ability to regenerate, the ability to heal others, etc. Piccolo, due to his sheer history (both before and especially AFTER he became a reluctant part of the team) is a complete separate case, he was raised on Earth, went through an almost endless string of changes (his father split in two, he took on all the characteristics and memories from him, and then he fused with the one his father split from again) and, just like Tenshinhan, Krillin and Yamcha, despite being unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta or Gohan, is at some temporary points the strongest among the team, is keen on martial arts, is extremely proud and has reached an immense level of power during the Freeza and Jinzouningen arcs (training with Kaiou-sama, fusing with Nail, training intensively for 3 more years for the Jinzouningen, fusing with Kami and training intensively in the RoSaT for the Cell Games).
It's just natural that in the later stages of DB (Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. arcs), Goku and Piccolo (and Kami) are far beyond anyone else, due to their then-unknown alien origins. It's quite an encounter and indeed a fantastic coincidence that both of them happened to be sent to the same planet, Earth, although for different purposes, which set the stage for their showdown hundreds of years after the catalyst for Piccolo originally leaving Namek.
Before Vegeta takes on the role of main rival of Goku's, Piccolo used to be the one, but not for long. He keeps up with him at close range during their showdown in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and when Raditz appears, but after Goku trains with Kaiou-sama (and thus achieves an enormous power-up and acquires the Kaio-Ken and Genkidama techniques) he's just far beyond anyone else from the team, including Piccolo, who was kind of focused on developing Gohan's hidden power for the upcoming battle with Vegeta and Nappa. He ends up being killed, but manages to gain an enormous power-up which allows him to be on the level of Vegeta, Goku and some of Freeza's stages after fusing with Nail; after that, he manages yet again to keep up with (and indeed surpass) the "regular" Super Saiya-jin stages of Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks (and consequently Freeza) after fusing with Kami, putting him on par with warriors who beat the shit out of Vegeta, for example (#17, #18). For a number of episodes in the early Cell arc, he's not only on par with #17 and #18, he's close to #16 and Cell, and far beyond the Saiya-jin, who were off in Kami's Lookout to undergo a year-worth of training to surpass the regular Super Saiya-jin form. After that, and only in terms of sheer power, he's rather quickly rendered obsolete as a warrior as well, being absolutely unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta and Gohan by the Majin Buu arc (he doesn't even fight in the entire arc, is stuck teaching the Fusion to the kids and the only land he blows is on a defenseless Babidi, cutting him in half and actually even failing to kill him). He doesn't even appear in Movies 12 and 13, which just goes to show the degree of importance they cease to put on him at that time, which in turn also has to do with the fact he just can't keep with up the massive power of Goku, Vegeta and Gohan as Super Saiya-jin 2 anymore.
It could be argued that Piccolo, despite remaining EXTREMELY powerful, has reached (or actually gone far beyond) his natural limits as a warrior after the several power-ups he went through in the Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, which allowed him to keep with up Super Saiya-jins like Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan, and up cyborgs who had thrashed them. He most likely lacks the ability to go any further than that, but, for a Namek-sei-jin, his level of power is more than impressive, it's absolutely fantastic.
Quick note: it's funny how Vegeta - again - proclaims to have surpassed Kakarotto and become the strongest in the Universe once again, and in a matter of a few episodes is overcome by quite a large list of warriors: Piccolo, #17, #18, #16, Cell, and is only slightly above Goku and Mirai no Trunks. Despite his massive power-ups after the RoSaT intense training, he gets surpassed once again by Cell, Trunks, Goku and even Gohan. However, his ability to keep obsessively training, as a pure Saiya-jin, does drive him to keep surpassing his and other warriors' limits and keep up with the strongest of the fighters in each arc and at each particular time. Unlike Piccolo, he's a major protagonist in the Majin Buu arc, even in terms of power, managed to skip the gap between his previous Cell arc strongest stage and that of teen Gohan and Cell by actually achieving Super Saiya-jin 2 himself, allows himself to be possessed by Babidi to gain yet another increase in power and appears to have stopped there in terms of power boosts until he goes Super Saiya-jin God, Saiya-jin beyond God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, basically allowing him to surpass and skip the enormous and increasing gap between him, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, all the versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Gotenks and Vegitto, effectively and finally putting him on par with Goku and in the leagues of Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza.
Regarding the training you were referring to and discussing, I think that going through a lesser amount of training doesn't necessarily produce hindrances to a warrior's progress in power. It's actually about both the intensiveness of the training and how gifted they are. Besides, Goku was never really restrained from training seriously and constantly despite Chi Chi's constant nagging.
You were talking about the 5 year gap between the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and the arrival of Raditz (beginning of DBZ); Piccolo is still slightly below Goku in terms of power, but when they tap into their strongest recesses of power and increase their Ki (as measured by Raditz's scouter), when performing their trademark techniques, Piccolo does manage to overcome Goku with his Makankosappo, which was originally intended to kill Goku and most likely took quite a lot of time, thought and effort to develop. It's funny that it actually ended up succeeding in its original purpose, since it DOES kill Goku along with his brother.
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Aaaaaaaaaaand, back to the regular routine. In about two hours we'll finally be able to put a decisive end to all the "is Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 in episode 7?" questions once and for all. The subject has been over-discussed, in my view.
I've never said this before since last week(end)'s episode, but the episode preview does show some pretty weaker fighting choreography from Piccolo + Tenshinhan + #18 vs Beerus, but I suppose that's just to be expected when comparing a full-fledged weekly series to a theatrical feature such as BoG. In all cases, on one hand we get more time to expand on events and on character development, but on the other hand we get weaker animation.
I have to say that I had orgasms with the first 2/3 episodes of DBSuper, but the one I watched and rewatched the most times was episode 6. I rewatched episode 5 several times after all the blown out of proportion fuss over the animation was over, as rational folks expected, and actually watching the episode from beginning to end the episode was pretty decent, even animation-wise (it was everyone going in-depth, frame by frame on each second of the fight that made it look THAT awful); there are pretty decent shots here and there and the episode overall, even from a fighting choreography point of view, was absolutely acceptable. You need to look at things and analyze them from an emotionally distant perspective, and that's what I did and was absolutely pleased to welcome episode 5 into the list of what's acceptable so far in DBSuper in ALL aspects, which is basically everything.
Going back to episode 7, it does look judging by last week's episode preview that Vegeta's instance of losing it over Bulma getting slapped by Beerus will be not only the obvious most anticipated moment in the episode, it will also get excellent animation, the few seconds we got to see of the "mutation" (remember, not "transformation", which all that entails) looks pretty badass. They got Super Saiya-jin 2 (not 3, goddamn it) and the respective physical characteristics pretty well, even after nearly two decades (spikier hair, blue lightning/electricity sparks, aura flowing at a higher speed, etc.).
Goddamn it, I can't wait for this. After almost two months I STILL can't believe we get to see an entirely new episode exactly at the same time it airs in Japan. The experience just doesn't get old. The entire atmosphere surrounding is important for me personally too. I find myself watching the same TV programs and commercials from Fuji TV every single Saturday/Sunday roughly two hours before it's 9am in Japan (1am in my country). It's getting to become quite a fantastic routine in my life.
Edit: Let this be the final time I say this: Vegeta will most likely NOT going to go Super Saiya-jin 3, no matter what theory you come up with present. I know quite a large chunk of fans have been fantasizing over it for years and are really keen on seeing it happen on-screen, and I'm not saying it's just impossible - the fact that they're throwing some small/minor changes and additions here and there in DBSuper when compared to BoG definitely increases the chances of it happening by just a little bit in terms of percentage -, but not only would it look AWFUL on Vegeta (it already looks old, over-the-top and outdated on Goku, and almost ridiculous on Gotenks), they happen to KNOW it would look awful on him, it will also be rendered obsolete in a matter of episodes, besides the most important fact, which is the sheer episode title, which refers specifically to a "mutation" rather than a "transformation"; it will most likely come down to a very temporary freakish power up triggered by an explosion of anger which will allow Vegeta to get to a level/degree of power beyond the natural limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage - the unnatural and parallel event it constitutes has "mutation" as a perfect noun to refer to it. I'm not criticizing anyone for wanting it to happen, it's also a matter of aesthetics, and hence an issue that depends on one's own personal opinion, but you should keep your hopes pretty low, otherwise you'll end up disappointed, which is far from a nice or pleasant feeling.
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Beerus-sama KO'ing everyone just as easily and ALMOST as quickly as in BoG? Just wait 52 minutes. PUDDING ! :evil:
Edit: In the episode preview from last week(end) we did indeed see Gotenks have a(n expectable) go at Beerus, just like in BoG, but he attacks him without being in any Super Saiya-jin stage, and I assume he'll be KO'd seconds after he firstly charges at Beerus, so he'll most likely not even transform at any point against him. I guess he (along with the two who "compose" him, Trunks and Goten) is even more clueless about the actual level Beerus is at than he was in BoG.
I hope Ultimate Gohan has a change to land a few more blows instead of being KO'd after a single punch to the stomach. Beerus does "give" Majin Buu a few more seconds of torture in DBSuper than BoG - in fact he pretty much THRASHES him for nearly a minute, to the point of almost finishing him off, I'd say -, so, even taking into account the sheer fact that this is a series, thus giving each character more time against Beerus while having a go at him, I'd expect the fight against Vegeta, Majin Buu, Gohan, Gotenks, Tenshinhan, Piccolo and #18 to last for about half of the episode, while the second one will most likely be devoted and dedicated to Bulma's reaction to the events, Beerus slapping her and Vegeta losing it, undergoing the aforementioned "mutation" and finally lashing out at him, in some sort of second round, which either will last for about half an episode or will be cut (as in, episode ending) exactly as Vegeta finishes his "mutation"/power-up and flies off towards Beerus (much along the same lines many episodes throughout all the arcs of DBZ ended - Ginyu lashing out at Goku at the end of episode 68, Gohan lashing out at Freeza at the end of episode 82, Goku ready to (re)start the fight against Freeza after turning Super Saiya-jin at the end of episode 95, Goku flying towards #19 at the end of episode 127 or Gotenks flying towards Super Buu after coming out of the RoSaT himself along with Piccolo, just to name a few).
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
Chiki wrote:
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Didn't the manga just cover Vegeta vs Beerus, and he didn't transform into SSJ3?
Yeah.. to be honest, after seeing the manga, I am 99% convinced that Vegeta won't go SSJ3.
But there are some differences between the manga and the anime. Let's pray and hope he does!
I am equally convinced Gotenks won't go SSJ3 in the episode, unlike the manga. And about 100% sure there will be no Champa in the episode.
Apparently he won't even go Super Saiya-jin, let alone Super Saiya-jin 3 (in fact, the only instance/movie/special he went SSJ3 besides twice in the Majin Buu arc was in Movie 13).
Given Champa's obvious connection with the 6th Universe one way or another, I'd say my best bet is that we'll only get to see him for the first time in the build-up for/during the 6th Universe arc, and no sooner than that (certainly not during the Beerus arc, and almost certainly not in the Freeza arc either).
From a certain point of view, things are progressing quite slowly, and Champa will obviously be a major character in the entirety of DBSuper as a full-fledged series - even judging by his and his attendant's appearance in the opening - so he'll most likely not be introduced in a hasty manner, as in, out of nowhere; instead, he'll get the proper build-up and background story to explain just who or what he is and what his relationship with the Beerus + Whis duo was and is.
The first two episodes were smooth, family-oriented ones dedicated to (re)introduce the main and supporting characters, along with some ominous/chilling appearances by Beerus, but from that onward we're getting the same events depicted in BoG being presented in almost the same exact circumstances in the episodes of DBSuper, with some minor changes and additions; judging by the pace of the episodes and the rate at which the storyline is moving forward, as well as the episodes' titles, we'll be "done" with the Beerus arc by episode 11/12, after which we'll probably get some (most likely two) smoother episodes to make the bridge between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc, with everyone (including Beerus) pondering on the fight that just happened, after which Freeza finally reappears - I'd say there's some definite probability of Champa showing up in-between the Beerus and the Freeza arc, but it's not too likely; Freeza's arc - including stuff and events which happened off-screen in-between BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the movies' timeline (Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to train with Whis, Freeza training) will most likely also take no longer than 10/12 episodes to be done with, and no longer than that, so we can expect the real entirely new stuff - the 6th Universe arc, and consequently Champa's full introduction and interaction with Beerus and everyone else - by episode 23/25. That has always been my estimate and I'm sticking with it until further info or notice.
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Gotta say that although I am indeed thrilled at the prospect of giving everyone more fighting time this time in DBSuper when compared to BoG, the way Beerus KO's Piccolo with two masterfully-applied pressure-point attacks with the chopsticks was badass; it's also about how quick it was. We're not going to get that in the episode's version of it, though. I must confess I am rather curious and hyped to see just how each one of the ones fearless enough to charge Beerus will be put out of commission this time around. Judging by last week(end)'s episode preview, I'd say Piccolo, #18 and Tenshinhan won't land a single hit on Beerus and will get KO'd in a matter of seconds, while both Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan will have much more fighting time. Vegeta will obviously be the "star" among the team for the entirety of the episode, or at least more than half of it, especially after the "infamous" "mutation".
Can't wait. 17 minutes to go. :twisted:
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
The Champa stuff in the manga would have been a great way to add something new to these arcs and build up to something interesting. Ergh.
On a side note, it seems to me that Champa really might be from another universe, considering he refers to the supreme kais as "kaioshin of the 7th universe." That also means each universe has its own set of kaioshin, meaning the gods of each universe won't be something radically different. >.>
Champa will obviously most likely be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th Universe. He's a cat as well, dresses almost the same and even has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis. This would explain the bitterness/rivalry between Champa and Beerus. There's another theory which I've explained more than once, so I won't do it again, but I regard it as far-fetched, although it would indeed do a better job at explaining why Champa has ill feelings towards Beerus and could in fact be plotting some sort of assault or revenge on him. The deity hierarchy in the 6th Universe - and probably all Universes - will also probably be similar or indeed the same, along with the planets and races which can be found throughout the entirety of the arcs in DB and DBZ (warriors or tyrants like Freeza, Dabura, Bojack, the Saiya-jin, the Namek-sei-jin, the Kaioshin, the Kaiou-samas, etc.).
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- No Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta (as expected and pointed out NUMEROUS times)
- No Super Saiya-jin Gotenks (let alone Super Saiya-jin 3)
- Dende being able to sense Beerus is some sort of deity before Piccolo
- As expected and pointed out just minutes ago, Vegeta preparing to charge at Beerus just as the episode is cut
Right about everything.
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And finally, FINALLY, some respect towards the fantastic character Piccolo is by finally giving him some lines and some actual action (not really the fighting, but his remarks about Vegeta's reaction towards Beerus and his realization of Beerus' sheer power). I understand Piccolo's character is only suited to intervene in an in-depth manner in serious circumstances, which was just the case.
Speaking of which, THIS was the instance in which Beerus is shown to be much more a menace and is presented in a much more serious/ominous/chilling light when compared to BoG (far better displayed in this episode than in the previous instances in early DBSuper, such as his way of dealing with the planets he destroys, his humiliation of King Vegeta, his ultimate THRASHING of Beerus and even his chilling line before BRUTALLY and mercilessly KO'ing Goku in a miserable manner). Again, if once hadn't seen BoG, or if it never happened at all, one would be thinking at this point that Beerus is much closer to a full-fledged sadistic maniacal villain than he actually is when compared to the movie.
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Ajay wrote:
Wow, I don't know what it was about that episode, but I had goosebumps throughout so much of it. Even though I know what's going to happen, and a lot of the scenes are arguably done better in the film, I felt like a child again watching the best parts of Z. Maybe it was seeing a large portion of the gang fighting against such a formidable enemy, I don't know. It just did all kinds of things to me!
Vegeta's reaction to Bulma being hit was unreal. I don't know if I liked it or not! It was like a crazy version of Gohan's reaction in the Cell arc. Truly extraordinary direction during that section. The close ups on his his eyes and mouth, the sparks, and the hair. So good. They also seemed to ignore a lot of Yamamuro's design traits; a lot of the shots reminded me of parts of the Boo arc.
The wait for next week is going to be very painful.
As always, will have a gallery of the best shots up within the hour. Will get a WebM of the transformation, too.
That feeling of desperation was definitely present to some degree - still not comparable to what we got in the best of DBZ, obviously - in this episode. Piccolo's remarks about Beerus' power, plus the fact he's acting evil while being shown to be pretty much untouchable by Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, himself, #18 or Majin Buu makes it for a pretty ominous menacing character. In BoG, he was presented as a laid-back and even somewhat comic antagonist, in DBSuper, especially in this episode, he has been/is being portrayed in a much, much darker light.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Also, I literally started LAUGHING out loud when Gohan got defeated with one hit. There's ZERO respect for the character and that's, sadly, hilarious.
Since when being one-shoted = zero respect to a character ?
So Bulma being knock out with 1 slap in BoG = no respect to her character ?
Gohan is at least the strongest or second strongest of the group on the ship, and he did so much worse than everyone else. Beerus swats him away using Boo as a baseball bat. Everyone else managed to at least make some form of contact with Beerus, while Gohan is knocked out so pathetically it's hilarious.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Oh, poor Gohan. Guy can't catch a break. Beerus used Majin Boo like a rolled up newspaper and swatted Gohan down to the floor like a fly. But in all fairness, he got knocked in one hit in BOG too. :P
Well two hits, but at least he touched Beerus. Gotenks, Piccolo, 18, Tenshinhan, hell everyone else did better than him :lol:. Hell Bulma even got a hit on Beerus :lol:.
That just goes to show what we've been saying and discussing a few weeks ago on their depiction and treatment of Gohan not only in DBSuper, but in fact in anything they've been throwing our way after 11 years of inactivity, from the 2008 Special to BoG and Fukkatsu no F: a nerdy little weakling who neglects his training, hardly fights even when a serious menace shows up, and all of this despite being arguably the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him, and just months after gaining a power-up which put him above most versions of Majin/Super Buu and on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, making him one of the strongest warriors who has ever existed.
Gohan isn't a weakling, you can't go from being one of the strongest warriors in the Universe to a useless fighter like that, especially being (half) a Saiya-jin. He's just been deliberately treated this way to make (even) more room for Vegeta to surpass him and be actually the ONLY one to be able to keep up with Goku in their insane power-ups to Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, as the series co-protagonist and second or third most important character (I think we can agree that it has become rather obvious for weeks or even months that in DBSuper the three most important protagonists are (going to be) Goku, Beerus and Vegeta. No room for Gohan. They didn't need to push him to the sidelines in this absolutely miserable way, though. It's like he isn't a fighter anymore (which, in a way, he actually isn't, since a fighter is interested in getting stronger, martial arts and training, not books and "becoming a scholar"). If we went back a few months, during the Majin Buu arc, Vegeta wouldn't scold Gohan for his weakness/softness, he would right away KILL him. What a waste of Saiya-jin potential.
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Turambar wrote:
I dunno Beerus' face seemed shocked. Gohan at least managed to catch Beerus of guard for a second in BOG, and this time we get to see just how much they really hate Gohan. New tier list.
Vegeta
Gotenks
Boo
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Bulma
Gohan.
Regardless of the humorous aspect of putting Gohan below Bulma, why the hell is Krillin above Tenshinhan? Tenshinhan is an actual serious martial artist, he keeps training endlessly and even had his go at Beerus valiantly, unlike Krillin. I'm getting pretty tired of everyone putting Krillin above Tenshinhan and stating he's the strongest Earthling. Just because he's Goku's best friend and much more of a protagonist than Tenshinhan, who has had long periods of absence, unlike Krillin, who's ALWAYS there, doesn't mean he's stronger than Tenshinhan.
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Beerus-sama wrote:
Birusu16 wrote:
So can anyone explain what was going on with the Dende situation? I mean it seems like he was eventually able to sense Beerus' ki and thus could come to a conclusion as to who he is hence his reaction, but it's hard to know for sure without knowing what's being said.
Thats what it was, Dende can feel Beerus' ki and it scared him :P
He also noticed the special about Beerus' ki to get to the conclusion he was a god...
The thing that stroke me as a little bit strange isn't that Dende had the potential to sense that Beerus was some sort of deity, it was the fact that he did it before Piccolo, who has much more experience at being a deity than Dende, not to mention much more knowledge (at least the "Kami half" of him).
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
Jesus just let gohan die already he will never amount to anything anymore :lol: seriously this guys went defeating cell ,stomping buu,to being an utter joke :yawn:
He has the potential to surpass Goku and Vegeta, he just needs a good reason to train and bring out that power.
Absolutely agree with the fact he's the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him. However, as a non-pure Saiya-jin, he lacks the maniacal need to continue fighting and training constantly to overcome his limits and those of others. By "good reason" you can only mean something like a major psychotic human-absorbing mass murdered like Cell torturing your friends and family in front of you, going Super Saiya-jin 2 and disposing of the Cell Juniors and Cell in a badass manner, because before that he's a cry-baby (losing control in his famous tantrums here and there, but ultimately being unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta, Freeza or Piccolo as a child/teenager) and after that he's little more than a nerd more focused on f****** studying than developing his IMMENSE potential, which is so great that it could be argued he has it in himself to become the most powerful warrior there is in the entire Universe, with the only exception being the insane power-up he did NOTHING which resulted in him achieving a level on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and thrashing Super Buu, and even in that instance it takes two episodes for him to be overcome again and be pushed to the sidelines pretty much forever. It's not Gohan's fault, it's the way they're deliberately - or not so deliberately - portraying him in this miserable light. No wonder Freeza manages to KO and render him unconscious and nearly dead with one blow in his first form in Fukkatsu no F, he - like Vegeta pointed out as he was fighting against Dabura - lost all of his fighting instincts. I seriously and honestly wonder what their plans for him are; it doesn't hurt anybody to have him be surpassed by Vegeta, not to mention Goku, Beerus and Whis, but holy s***, we're talking a guy who just months ago was one of the strongest warriors in the entire Universe. I can honestly see them pondering: "what the hell are we going to do about Gohan? We're going to deliberately push him to the sidelines as far as serious power goes when compared to the very main protagonists, but should we give him some proper fighting time fitting of his actual immense power or should we treat him as a nerdy little weakling instead?"
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There are many things that set them apart, but there are also a lot of similarities between them: Beerus and Freeza; both of them enjoy the sight of planets blowing up (especially if they're the ones which cause it to blow up), they're both somewhat cautious about - not to say frightened of - the legends and power of the Super Saiya-jin/Super Saiya-jin God, they both humiliate King Vegeta, they BOTH compare Vegeta and his "foolishness" to that of his father (Freeza in episode 78 and Beerus in episode 7 of DBSuper), they're both insanely powerful (Freeza was at the time he first showed up, anyway), far above anyone else to the point in being in an entirely different dimension altogether, and both display sadistic + arrogant + menacing tendencies along with vanity and evil. It's really no wonder they had some sort of interaction a long time in the past.
I'm honestly extremely relieved and satisfied with how they're portraying Beerus in a much more serious/ominous/chilling/dramatic light when compared to BoG. In DBSuper, especially the second half of episode 6 and the entirety of episode 7, he comes across as a total villain, someone who's a menace to the planet and to everyone, evil, genocidal and extremely, EXTREMELY powerful. Regardless of the way Gohan is being treated miserably in the last years and in this episode in particular, when he takes his glasses off and talks to Videl he puts a lot of drama in his lines, he did say something along the lines of "it appears we're up against a tremendous enemy again this time", which reminded me of DBZ, when each of the main good guys evaluate a new major villain.
As I said yesterday, FINALLY Piccolo got the respect he deserves as one of the most fantastic characters in the whole of the Dragonball franchise; I understand that given his character and anti-social attitude he's only relevant when serious stuff starts happening, and that's exactly why we had to wait until episode 7 to see some of it. I'm not even talking about his fighting go at Beerus, it's more about the way he perceives the enemy and evaluates everyone's efforts as entirely redundant against him. It was definitely a Piccolo moment.
I was sure there would be no Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta, almost sure Gotenks wouldn't turn Super Saiya-jin (let alone SSJ3) and also almost sure that Vegeta would either have half of the episode dedicated to his second round at Beerus after losing it, or they would save the entire showdown for the next episode instead - they went with the latter.
This was the more dramatic episode so far and the one that resembles the kind of atmospheres we got in the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ when it comes to drama/seriousness/evil. Again, if one hadn't seen BoG, or if it just never even happened altogether, we'd by now be thinking Beerus is much closer to a full-fledged genocidal maniacal villain than he actually is. There was something wrong with the episode's pace and in the end it came across as "lacking" in some aspects which I still personally have to exactly figure out, but the entire atmosphere of the episode (along with some of the best animation in DBSuper so far, if not THE best) would/will compensate for any potential shortcomings from other points of view in terms of analysis. As I was watching it while it aired, time just seemed to fly off, unlike the other episodes. You really can't call an episode from the Dragonball franchise fantastic without the fighting + ominousness/seriousness/drama/desperation combo. This episode delivered fantastically in that particular aspect.
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Bullza wrote:
He's becoming almost as useless as Yamcha. I'm glad I don't particularly care for the character because if I was a Gohan fan I'd be pissed.
Effortlessly stomped by Beerus in Battle of Gods, didn't even get to throw a punch before getting one shotted in this episode, got one shotted by Freeza in his weakest form and lost his Mystic powers. All he's done in ages is beat some fodder and Shisami.
I don't know why they even continue to use the character anymore.
Except Yamcha IS useless and has become obsolete as a warrior - in terms of power and even relevance - since the Saiya-jin arc, whereas Gohan is arguably the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him and just months prior to DBSuper achieved a power-up which put him on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and above several versions of Majin/Super Buu, automatically and effectively making him one of the strongest warriors who has ever existed. You can't go from that to . He's not a full-fledged Saiya-jin, he lacks the maniacal desire to train and fight, but goddamn it, at least before that he was keen on helping out as a kid/teenager and went against his mother's constant nagging on numerous occasions, while in recent years he basically has given up to it and decided himself he wanted to be a "renowned scholar" instead of developing his IMMENSE potential, which I'd go as far as postulate that could make him - with the proper training and circumstances - the most powerful being who has ever lived.
I honestly don't know whether or not the decision to depict him in this miserable way not only as a warrior/fighter, but as a character, is deliberate or not; it could very well be deliberate in order to make (even) more room for Vegeta to be the one to keep up with Goku in terms of power, matching it to his degree of (co-)protagonism, but either they're deliberately making him appear to have lost all of his fighting instincts and maybe even most of his previously immense power, or they just forgot how powerful he was during the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc (beyond Vegeta at his strongest - Super Saiya-jin 2 -, beyond most versions of Majin/Super Buu, beyond Gotenks, on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, not to mention everyone else below these).
It's not that he would stand a chance against Beerus anyway, that's not what's bugging us; NOBODY stands a chance against Beerus at this current, specific point. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku was miserably destroyed, and so was fat Majin Buu, let alone the likes of Piccolo, #18 or, even more so, Tenshinhan. Some of us are pissed off - I'm not, because I've never been a Gohan fan except for the badass way he went insane on the Cell Juniors and Cell himself - and some others are just disappointed or shocked, the latter being much closer to my personal case. At least let the guy throw a few punches and kicks, or even some Ki attacks. Was it really necessary to render him out of commission without letting him even TOUCH Beerus? If this was the early Majin Buu arc, inside of Babidi's ship, and after the fight with Dabura, Vegeta wouldn't scold him for neglecting his training, he would right away KILL him.
I don't if we're supposed to be disappointed and somewhat angry at Gohan himself as a character or actually at the ones who chose to portray him this way.
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Jaetinh wrote:
Hopefully it's not just Vegeta and Goku who're going to U6, they need to make Gohan a badass again and take that dude with them.
The way they're treating him BOTH as a warrior and as a character in DBSuper (and indeed in any Movies/Specials thrown our way in recent years), I wouldn't really count on that, pal. Just read the other threads on the subject.
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Sora Saiyan wrote:
Well I enjoyed the episode, but where was SSJ3 Gotenks! I know it wouldn't have made any difference, but it would've been cool to see him. Ultimate Gohan didn't get a chance to do anything, and it would've been nice to see him try and do something even though it would've done nothing, but at least he appeared.
Anyway, Beerus is making everybody look stupid, and it's no shock everybody is defeated pretty much right away.
That Vegeta scene was so annoying at the end, it seemed like a drawn out power up rather than being caught in a fit of rage. I was just caught wondering if he was annoyed or scared still. It wasn't done well.
Losing it to the point of having a psychotic episode (clinically described as a temporary loss of notion of one's actions or control over them, to the point of not even remembering having performed them) - seen in numerous instances in Gohan as a child/teenager, Goku when he goes Super Saiya-jin for the first time and, if you count the movies, obviously Brolly, whose psychosis isn't temporary, but actually permanent) typically makes the warrior jump or leap towards the target of his rage without even thinking, at full power and in an uncontrollable manner (usually depicted, from a visual/aesthetics point of view, by having the character lose the pupils, like Brolly in almost the entirety of Movie 8 or right when Goku goes SSJ on Namek), and that just wasn't the case of Vegeta. My only guess is that his degree of "respect" and frightfulness/carefulness towards Beerus is actually so great that it conflicts with his utter anger and rage at seeing Bulma getting hit by the same guy who happened to torture his father in front of him when he was a child (not to mention the sheer fact that it's the same guy who's actually so insanely strong that it makes Vegeta look like nothing, and we're talking about Vegeta here, nearly the incarnation of pride in strength and heritage, the one who's never allowed or accepted anyone to surpass him in power).
We'll indeed have to wait for episode 8 to see just how the fight between enraged Vegeta and Beerus plays out; for some reason I doubt he'll be able to land a few actually hurting punches and kicks on Beerus like he was able to do in BoG. His temporary power boost and rage lasted only a few seconds in the movie as well, so we can expect only a slightly stretched version of the event in the beginning of episode 8 before he gets KO'd or rendered out of commission as well. And THEN we'll finally get to see Goku finally intervening to prevent the planet's and everyone's destruction and expressing his interest in what that "Super Saiya-jin God business" is all about.
However, if you compare the atmosphere in which everyone at the party lashes out at Beerus in BoG to the atmosphere in which the entire event takes place in episode 7 of DBSuper, well, there's just no possible comparison, this is being done in a much more ominouss/serious/dramatic light, Beerus is presented as a real meance, somebody who combines quite a degree of evil plus the fact that he's INSANELY powerful, which goes back to the trend seen in DBZ when the warriors evaluate just how much of a menace each major villain is. I finally got the same feeling we used to get throughout all the arcs of DBZ and the last stages of DB, although - understandably - to a somewhat lesser degree, given the fact Beerus STILL manages to come across as laid-back and a little bit comic, although we only saw that in the previous episodes; in this particular one, there was nothing funny about him at all. Things got really serious in this episode, from all angles. When Piccolo starts getting genuinely worried, you can tell there's something pretty serious and menacing going on. The episode did indeed have its shortcomings and was "lacking" in some way which I still can't exactly figure out, I think it has to do with the pacing, I don't know, I'll need to watch it multiple times to understand just exactly what it is when compared to the other episodes, but at least in the fighting/seriousness/drama/ominousness/desperation area, I was more than pleased with the episode's atmosphere; up until now, DBSuper (not to mention the 2008 Special or even BoG and indeed Fukkatsu no F) utterly failed to generate an atmosphere that could be dated back to the ones we were presented throughout DBZ.
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ParkerAL wrote:
Does anyone else dislike Dragon Ball Super for flanderizing Beerus's personality? For some reason, Toei is really blowing his more villainous characteristics out of proportion. Despite his fickleness and irritable temper, in Battle of Gods you could still see him as an ambiguous antagonist - someone who was legitimately likable under the right circumstances. Now he's acting like a villain in the same vein as Freeza, Cell and Super Buu. Sure, he's mostly doing the same stuff as in the film, but there's an extra layer of petty sadism underlying it all.
I can only hope Toei intends to develop his character as the series progresses, and eventually show him mellowing out as he interacts with Goku. Otherwise, I'm not going to enjoy his appearances nearly as much. I'll also lose a lot of appreciation and respect for his character.
I don't mind that at all, on the contrary. The entire atmosphere surrounding his appearances in DBSuper up until this episode were already much more ominous and dramatic when compared to his depiction in BoG, but in THIS episode, now HERE things got pretty serious, which I've said multiple times is one of the most fundamental aspects of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ so fantastic: the drama, the seriousness, the desperation over fighting someone utterly evil who combines that with an insane degree of power, a true menace.
Based not on BoG, but actually on the first episodes of DBSuper, we already know Beerus is AT LEAST capable of comic displays and we know all about his laid-backness, but in episode 7 he basically went on a (rather quiet, as it's not like he really needs to scream and shout to KO anybody there) rampage without, for the first time in the series, displaying anything other than wickedness, arrogance and sadism (besides sheer immense power) for one single second.
I wouldn't go as far as to compare him to the likes of Freeza or Cell, or even Vegeta in his early days, in terms of wickedness, ruthlessness, evil, mania or narcissism, but he got pretty close to that, and that's the very first time we got that hint at the atmosphere(s) we were used to get in DBZ when the warriors were presented with yet another serious menace to the planet, to themselves and to life in general (or even to the entire Universe). As far as this aspect goes, I'd give this episode a 10 out of 10. It does have its shortcomings in terms of pace and some other aspects - we've been debating Gohan's depiction thoroughly for the last hours and right after the episode and the fight aired -, but when Piccolo gets genuinely worried, you can tell there's some pretty serious stuff going on, and I was more than happy to have Piccolo become agitated at the prospect of yet another seemingly invincible and untouchable opponent who just happens to be an antagonist (I STILL won't go as far as deeming him a full-fledged "villain", even after what happened in this episode and the way he and his actions were depicted and portrayed in it).
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CortoMaltese wrote:
After years of bullshit like "Gohan is the strongest", it's so pleasant to see the truth.
BOG confirm Goku as the first Z, DBSUPER confirm exactly the same thing (Episode 2) ! The episode 7 confirm how Gohan is by far overrated ! He is even weaker than Bejita... What a shame ! After a decade of lies, the truth is revealed and that's the better choice possible ! Thank you Akira Toriyama.
From a certain point of view, he's not weaker than Vegeta at this particular point, he just got to a point where he neglected his training and the development of his IMMENSE potential so much that he most likely can't tap into his Ultimate stage anymore, rendering him weaker than Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta. However, it's not just his loss of power or fighting instincts, it's the whole way he's being depicted - deliberately or not - as a useless, obsolete and utterly inconsequential warrior (if we can still call him that). This was the guy who just months before this takes place got an immense power-up by doing NOTHING other than sitting still for a few hours, after which he was put on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, far above Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, above Gotenks and above most versions of Majin/Super Buu, obviously not to mention everyone else below that. Even taking into consideration the fact that he's not a pure Saiya-jin, hence he lacks the maniacal "need" to keep training and fighting on a constant basis to surpass and overcome his limits and those of others, you really just can't go from being arguably one of the most powerful warriors who has ever existed in the Universe to this pitiful excuse of a fighter who neglects his martial arts training and fails to develop on his absolutely IMMENSE potential, which I'd go as far as postulating that it could make him, with the proper training and the right circumstances, the most powerful single being in the entire Universe. Not to mention the fact he just lost - again - his fighting instincts, which were at its top in the Cell Games -, something Vegeta points out right after his fight with Dabura.
You could see this happening somewhat judging by the way he's floating around with Videl looking like a peace-loving innocent, innofensive nerd in the early episodes of DBSuper and indeed in every Movie/Special they've thrown our way recently (2008 Special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F).
I'd say basically what Vegeta at his best would probably say: "What a waste of potential".
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MCDaveG wrote:
You guys forget one aspect of this whole problem!
It's all Chi-Chi's fault since the beginning of Z! This classic megalomaniacal parents who want their kids become a pro hockey player, lawyer or such, shaping their kids out of their own will.
Spoiler:View
Well, he was with the team on Namek, he did fight at the Cell Games and Chi Chi wasn't even around anymore during the Majin Buu arc. He escaped Chi Chi's abusive parenting on numerous occasions. Either the "disease" spread to himself or he all along wanted to be what he ultimately became: a regular peace-loving guy who wants to develop his intellect rather than his martial arts prowess and power, neglecting his training and failing miserably to tap into and develop his IMMENSE potential. Chi Chi can be pretty nagging - putting it mildly -, but she never had any real control over Gohan or Goku. Gohan went to become the most powerful in the team at the Cell Games, losing his shit, turning Super Saiya-jin 2 and disposing of the Cell Juniors and Cell himself in a badass manner, and 7 years after that all it took for him to become one of the strongest warriors in the Universe - again, far beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, beyond Gotenks and several versions of Majin/Super Buu and on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku - was to basically sit around for a few hours doing NOTHING.
Don't blame it all on Chi Chi.
I'm not making so many posts on the whole Gohan matter because I'm enraged due to being a fan of him. I'm not, and I've never been. I'm just a little disappointed to the point of anger at himself as a character and at the creators of Dragonball for their depiction of him in DBSuper, the 2008 Special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, because it amounts to an ENORMOUS, immeasurable waste of Saiya-jin potential. Vegeta in his best, early days would summarize the thing exactly this very same way, I'm sure.
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Birusu16 wrote:
I honestly don't see what the big deal is with Gohan. Yes he's stronger than the other Z-Fighters, but that doesn't mean anything considering Beerus is far stronger than any of the Z-Fighters. Nobody is going to come off looking much better than another because they're all ants to Beerus.
Yes, Gohan got the worst treatment of them all, but would it really satisfy any Gohan fan if he went down in the same manner as Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and 18? They were beaten just as easily and they didn't manage to touch Beerus either. If anything you should just hope he doesn't fight.
Meh. I just don't see the big deal. Gohan isn't a relevant character anymore in terms of power. We've known this for a while, so I'm not sure why people keep expecting major things from him.
I'm not a fan of Gohan now, nor have I ever been, so my numerous posts on him and on the way he's been depicted/portrayed aren't triggered by anger at the way they're treating him at all, it's more due to what you could perhaps call a Vegeta-like attitude (like the one he displayed at Gohan after his fight with Dabura) upon realizing just how much he skipped/neglected training and utterly lost his fighting instincts. It's just an ENORMOUS waste of potential.
You're right, nobody in that boat, or anywhere in the Universe except Whis at this particular stage, for that matter, is even in the same dimension of power Beerus is at, but this is just the foreseeable conclusion to what was building up in the early episodes of DBSuper and in the 2008 Special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F: when we finally got to see him in an actual fight against a serious menace, he'd be miserably KO'd or rendered out of commission just as easily and quickly as the other warriors are, and they're all (except Goku, Vegeta and Majin Buu) far, far below him in terms of power.
I don't agree with you when you say that he's been irrelevant in terms of POWER, just a few months prior to DBSuper he attained a power-up which put him far beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, most versions of Majin/Kid Buu, Gotenks and on par with Goku, effectively making him one of the strongest and most powerful warriors there ever was in the entire Universe. You can't go from that to being utterly useless and neglect your latent and natural fighting abilities, along with your ENORMOUS potential, going around in a peace-loving manner with Videl studying all the f****** time instead of developing your martial arts/fighting prowess. If he had 5% of the fighting attitude both Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jins, have, he'd reach levels far beyond them in to time and arguably with little effort. That's why I'm personally disappointed to the point of being almost angry (at him, as a character, or at the creators of the franchise, who chose to depict him this way).
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Bullza wrote:
SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?
And why not? Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 3 on Earth during the Majin Buu arc didn't kill fat Majin Buu and ended the saga right there because he wanted the living ones (the "next generation") to take care of their own business and go through tough times, train and get stronger to keep the Earth in peace against stronger and stronger opponents. While it's true that the Majin Buu version Gotenks, as a Super Saiya-jin 3, fought was stronger than the fat version, I've always viewed SSJ3 Goku as stronger than base Super Buu (as in, with no one absorbed), since I put Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku at the same exact level as that of Ultimate Gohan, who THRASHED that same exact Super Buu, which Gotenks failed to do.
Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan are both stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks. If not fact, near certainty.
Doctor. wrote:
I wonder if Goku blasting Cell's head off can be used to tell how strong he is.
That wasn't even what could be called or deemed "mind-training", it was just Goku thinking about his previous fights.
Birusu16 wrote:
Why would that be the case? The power rankings appear to have stayed the same after the Buu Saga, with Goku and Vegeta probably getting a bit stronger, but not enough to catch up to anyone. It was only passed six months to a year.
I don't see how getting defeated in one, instead of two hits, proves A character now is stronger than B character;it's established that Beerus is likely stronger than Vegetto, so he can take everyone out swiftly, if he so desires.
The quickness or way in which a fighter is KO'd or rendered out of commission when compared to another doesn't necessarily tell how much of a difference, if any, there is between them, we need to take into account the entire circumstances in which they fight from all possible angles.
Beerus is not "likely" stronger than Vegitto, he IS stronger than Vegitto. Even Goku himself says in the aftermath of his miserable fight at Kaiou-sama's planet against Beerus, both in BoG and in DBSuper's version of the events, that not even a fusion (whether through the dance - Gogeta - or through the Potara method - Vegitto) would be enough to stand up to Beerus.
This is my list of warriors from strongest to weakest in the Majin Buu arc, ALL of which are below Beerus and Whis (and, until further notice, no one else except Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta):
1 - Vegitto (about twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan, the strongest warrior in all of DBZ)
2 - Super Buu (with Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
3 - Super Buu (with SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
4 - Kid Buu
5 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (on par with Ultimate Gohan)
6 - Ultimate Gohan (on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku)
7 - Super Buu
8 - Evil Buu
9 - Majin Buu
10 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
12 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
13 - Dabura
14 - Kaioshin
By the way, just because Kid Buu "happens" to be the most fearsome and DANGEROUS of characters due to the sheer nature of his destructive and sociopathic personality, it doesn't necessarily or automatically mean he's the strongest version of Majin Buu. He's more dangerous, since he doesn't hesitate in destroying anything or anyone just because he feels like it, but in terms of power he's below other versions of Super Buu.
The only way someone can make the claim that Goku is the strongest warrior there is during or after the Majin Buu saga is if we count non-fused good guys only, or alternatively if we count only non-fused warriors, in which case it could be still be argued that Ultimate Gohan is at least on par with him and that Kid Buu might also be slightly stronger.
Since Vegitto only appears for a few episodes, never to be seen again, and Majin Buu and all of his versions are wiped out when Kid Buu is defeated, then yeah, at the very start of DBSuper Goku, at his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, and on par with Ultimate Gohan, is the strongest warrior on Earth and below only Beerus and Whis in the entire Universe.
And yeah, Vegeta is THAT low on the scale, but that will soon be fixed and his degree of power will be deliberately matched to his degree of (co-)protagonism in DBSuper, surpassing Gohan, all versions of Majin Buu, Gotenks and Vegitto, when he achieves Super Saiya-jin God and then Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God, effectively and finally setting him on par/close to Goku in the same respective stage(s) and slightly below the Beerus + Whis duo.
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Doctor. wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
The day I'll see Super have this kind of violence will be the day Broly becomes canon.
Beerus was crushing Vegeta's head, what are you talking about?
There's one major element we've all been forgetting about while discussing the violence/darkness/desperation/seriousness/hopelessness and the whole atmosphere in which Beerus is being shown in DBSuper (particularly in episode 7) when compared to BoG and to the 80's and 90's DB and DBZ level of genocidal maniacal villains and hopeless/desperate/serious circumstances: the background music.
You can't touch the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ for a number of reasons which I've detailed in-depth in the last days and weeks, that's iconic, unforgettable stuff, but this episode finally did come close to/approach the level of hopelessness of the atmosphere in which Beerus is being portrayed. He comes across as a sadistic, evil, insanely powerful villain, and when Piccolo becomes genuinely worried, that's a sign that things are starting to get really serious. On that aspect, which I regard as fundamental in what made the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, Majin Buu arcs so great, unforgettable and fantastic, this episode delivered beyond my expectations and compensates for any potential shortcomings it might contain from other perspectives, namely in terms of pace.
Again, if one hadn't seen BoG, or if it never even happened, we'd all be thinking by now that Beerus is actually much closer to a maniacal, genocidal villain than he actually is (but still not comparable to the likes of Freeza, Cell, Piccolo Daimao or Vegeta in his early days in terms of how psychotic, ruthless and utterly evil they are/were), despite having been exposed to his laid-backness and somewhat comic aspects in the early episodes of DBSuper. I can't tell how happy I am with the end result and with their decision to portray him and the events surrounding him in a much darker light, reminiscent, in fact, of the degree of seriousness/drama/hopelessness present in the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
Image
The day I'll see Super have this kind of violence will be the day Broly becomes canon.
Well there is still the ROF arc and future story lines. ROF did felt more darker and serious compare to BOG. BOG is much light heart and tamer then most of DBZ, so who knows how the rest of Super will turn out.
Beerus is indeed being portrayed in a much darker light when compared to BoG. We were indeed exposed to instances in which he came across as an extremely powerful yet playful, laid-back and even somewhat comic character, but episode 7 set the record straight once and for all (his humiliation of King Vegeta to much greater proportions, his way of dealing with the planets he destroys, the way he THRASHES fat Majin Buu to the point of absolute destruction and especially that last line he gave Goku before miserably, ruthlessly and mercilessly rendering him unconscious were just the build-up for the atmosphere we got in episode 7).
Instead of writing another (presumably huge) post, I'll just reply to this by taking a post I wrote a few days ago on the matter of DBZ vs DBSuper in terms of seriousness/drama/hopelessness/violence:
"I absolutely agree with the ominousness and seriousness of the background given from episode 1 of DBZ, with the arrival of Raditz and his interaction with Piccolo, not to mention the events of episode 2, with Raditz revealing every shocking detail to Goku, kidnapping his nephew, and then, ultimately, the forgery of an uneasy alliance to proceed to a fantastically animated fight which ended with the brutal death by impalement of two brothers, one of them being the series' main protagonist, in a penetrating wave of demonic light, after which he happens to spit out blood more than once and, while dying, reveals to Piccolo that two of his pals are coming to Earth, and they're much stronger than even him, putting their chances at near-0.
These were the first five episodes of DBZ. The background music was fantastic, the fighting choreography was delicious, the drama and seriousness couldn't be portrayed in a better way, the plot was basically set for many, many episodes and two arcs of violence, blood, war, genocide, drama and desperation (in the Saiya-jin arc, in the Namek saga and in the entire Freeza arc there's just as much blood, violence, drama and seriousness as in the beginning of DBZ).
As a hardcore male fan, I regard the seriousness, drama, desperation and fighting choreography as a fundamental part of what made the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so fantastic and untouchable.
However, DBSuper is not only happening 18 years after the last series ended, and 24 to 26 (!) years after the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs first came out, with all the necessary changes and adaptations to the times, it apparently is targeted mostly at a different audience and cannot, under any circumstances, be seen and analyzed in the same light as DB and DBZ in none of its aspects or from any point of view. You cannot and should not compare it, not even animation-wise, and if you go to watch DBSuper with the kind of attitude "I'm going to compare this to DBZ to see if it lives up to it in fighting choreography, seriousness, drama, blood and guts, violence" you're obviously in for a major, major disappointment.
The introduction of Beerus and his previously-unseen character (laid-backness and some comic elements, despite being the (second) most powerful entity in the entire Universe) and the entirety of BoG was beyond enjoyable, it was a full-fledged fantastic movie, but not even that should be compared to DBZ from any perspective. DBSuper is taking on most, or virtually all elements from BoG (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God), and is a retelling of the movie's events in almost the same exact circumstances, with a few minor changes and additions and with obviously and expected worse animation. If you enjoyed BoG, as I assume you did, you'd at least try to give DBSuper a chance before rushing to treat anyone who enjoys it as an idiot.
I enjoy DBSuper and I get orgasms whenever I think about it and the fact that I get to see an entirely new Dragonball episode every single Saturday/Sunday, and this is coming from a guy who values and identifies seriousness, violence and drama as a fundamental aspect of the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, and regards the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs as 80's and 90's untouchable stuff which will never meet its match in terms of overall quality and atmosphere. This is how you should start and where you start from when "preparing" yourself to watch DBSuper, and pretty much anything they've thrown our way recently after 11 years of inactivity (the 2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F). You need to adapt to the times and understand that you'll never see a character spitting blood from his mouth after a major whole has been put to his chest by a demonic wave of light with an ominous soundtrack in the back, in circumstances and in a whole atmosphere of drama, desperation and seriousness. DBSuper is never going to give you that or live up to that, and it's not meant to nor is it capable of doing it.
I hope I've proven that it's possible to both agree and disagree with you at the same time, and that it's possible to view DBZ as untouchable, viewing its seriousness and drama, its violence and insane fighting as the key element, and to enjoy and look forward to and be satisfied with pretty much everything DBSuper has given us so far.
The appearance of Piccolo Daimao pretty much marks the slight (or not so slight) but decisive shift in the road DB was taking. Toriyama himself admitted that he wanted to introduce a true villain, someone psychotic and absolutely evil, who would kill and torture for please, the first, real, TRUE enemy, villain and nemesis for Goku and the other good guys. The move was a complete success. My kanji says it all. Even though we understandably still see a number of comic instances in the arc itself, the whole atmosphere surrounding Piccolo Daimao and his rampage of killing, enslaving and murdering plus the fact that he was for a long sequence of episodes thought by Muten Roshi to be a legendary invincible opponent to the point of causing him shock and sending shivers down his spine upon seeing his symbol for the first time in episode 102 of DB is comparable to the arcs in DBZ in terms of seriousness and drama (and in some cases, superior to some of them), although in DB we're restricted to Earth, while in DBZ we explore space, with genocidal maniacal ruthless aliens, insanely powerful cyborgs, demons and magical creatures, while the same concept of supposed villain invincibility (Vegeta, Freeza - especially -, #17 and #18, Cell) is repeated until some sort of insane power-up is finally achieved by someone to overcome the strongest of main villain once and for all (Goku only overcomes his episodes-long inability to come even close to Freeza by undergoing a dramatic first Super Saiya-jin transformation, Gohan only overcomes Cell by losing it and going Super Saiya-jin 2).
On the whole seriousness/desperation/drama element present in the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, I've always viewed it as a fundamental aspect of what made DBZ so great and fantastic (to me, personally, and to a lot of fans, presumably) and a step forward when compared to the entirety of DB, but that's just me and it depends on what each one wants to see in a show. Hardcore male fans tend to put more emphasis on the fighting choreography, on badass scenes of powering-up and major beatings, blood and guts, violence, martial arts combined with manipulation of Ki that make up for probably the most unreal and fantastic fights anime has ever seen.
DB was 70% comic and 30% serious, DBZ was more like 90% serious and 10% comic. I mean, there's REAL violence, deaths, genocide, hopeless circumstances, blood and guts, especially between the introduction of Piccolo Daimao until the end of the Cell arc, with the highest peak of seriousness and violence probably reached in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs.
However, even if you're like me, a fan of Dragonball for over two decades, in your early 30's, having watched and recorded every single episode of DB and DBZ as it originally ran back in the 80's and 90's, having followed every single step of the franchise then, possessing quite a respectable amount of Dragonball merchandise, DVDs and manga, and having watched every single episode of DBZ hundreds of times over the years almost on a daily basis to the point where you find yourself able to understand almost everything uttered by the characters in Japanese without needing subtitles, you're bound to understand that there was indeed humor and sometimes even the nonsensical randomness in DBZ that also generated a lot of laughs in DB, and sometimes they don't come in the episodes in-between major arcs, they're thrown in in the middle of the seriousness and drama.
You're not obligated to like every single aspect of Dragonball, and you're entitled to criticize some of its debatable flaws, but DBZ was about character development, seriousness, insane fighting, values, drama, desperation, hopelessness and a few instances of comic relief/randomness. The less serious arc in all of DBZ is the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already starting to run out of ideas after so many years of having consistently, constantly and incessantly to put up with the pressure of delivering major plots, character backgrounds and fantastic fighting and its respective build-up. It's understandable, but that's why he wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible and why throughout the Majin Buu arc you already start to see some of the lack of tension and silliness that some fans criticize in GT or DBSuper.
DBSuper is not DB, nor is it DBZ. It's being made 18 years after the last series ended, and as such it has to be seen and analyzed in a entirely different light, even taking into account the sheer passage of time; they went for a focus on exploring the comic aspect of most characters (especially Vegeta, in this episode) and we can't blame them. They're entitled to make their own decisions plot-wise. DBSuper does indeed have flaws and shortcomings, but it would be inconceivable to have it as a successful honorable direct continuation to DBZ if you went for it thinking it would be as serious and dramatic as all the arcs in DBZ were; I'm a hardcore fan of insane fighting and desperate/hopeless/dramatic/serious circumstances, but I still get hyped every single time I even think about DBSuper and I have orgasms while I'm watching each episode as it's airing in Japan, but animation-wise, and also from a point of view of fighting choreography and character development, it's nowhere near DBZ and doesn't pretend to be. The later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ is 80's and 90's stuff, iconic, unforgettable, untouchable. It should be surprising that we're actually getting a follow-up full-fledged entirely new series in 2015 and we're watching it on a weekend by weekend basis, and still hard to believe. If they went down the road of creating an extremely serious, fighting-oriented series, focusing on the most serious characters (Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku) and keeping their complete degree of seriousness, a large chunk of hardcore fans would be losing it and having orgasms every day, but the series would also reach a much more limited audience, would probably be much shorter and wouldn't be as available as it has been up until now and will continue to be. It's a double-edged sword. On the other hand, you've got the fans who attach more to the comic aspects of Dragonball, and those have a higher potential to be absolutely happy with DBSuper than the first ones."
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Chiki wrote:
1 - Vegitto (about twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan, the strongest warrior in all of DBZ)
2 - Super Buu (with Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
3 - Super Buu (with SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
4 - Kid Buu
5 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (on par with Ultimate Gohan)
6 - Ultimate Gohan (on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku)
7 - Super Buu
8 - Evil Buu
9 - Majin Buu
10 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
12 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
13 - Dabura
14 - Kaioshin
Vegito is about twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku? It never happened in the manga so we don't know how strong he is.
SSJ3 Goku is above Kid Buu since he could have killed him if he really wanted to.
You might be confusing Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs fat Majin Buu, which I also addressed in my last post in this thread; he could indeed have killed him right there and then if he wanted to and ended the arc right there, but chose not to. The same can't be said about Kid Buu, though; while it could be argued that he COULD eventually defeat Kid Buu while fighting him if the Super Saiya-jin 3 stage didn't "happen" to consume so much Ki to the point of making it impractical in a long fight, since the Saiya-jin can't even sustain it for long, it can't really be said that he could have defeated Kid Buu "if he wanted to". If that were the case, he wouldn't have gone through the trouble to make an enormous and MASSIVE Genkidama to finish him off, all the time (while collecting the energy and in fact while throwing the finished ball at him) struggling desperately to see if he was going to be successful or not, building up a lot of tension.
Vegitto didn't happen in the manga? Are you perhaps mistaking Vegitto for Gogeta?
Bullza wrote:
And why not?
Because Goku was scared to fight Super Buu and said he was still too strong whereas SSJ3 Gotenks was beating him.
Goku didn't go Super Saiya-jin 3 against base Super Buu at any point, right? If he did, he'd thrash him just as easily as Ultimate Gohan did, since their respective powers are roughly the same.
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Chiki wrote:
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
He transforms right to SSJ3 and a nigh-equal battle unfolds between the two (the anime goes crazy with the filler in this battle). Goku stops for a moment and Vegeta tells him that at full power, he should be able to completely obliterate Buu. Goku says he's been trying but hasn't had the chance yet.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Chiki wrote:
I also remember a line where Goku said that he could've killed Kid Buu if he wanted to but he wanted Vegeta to have a chance against Kid Buu.
No, Base Vegito never battled Super Buu with Gohan absorbed in the manga. He went Super Saiyan straight away.
Not having gotten the chance due to being unable to gather one's Ki is quite different from "not wanting to", I think.
Ah, when I mentioned Vegitto I was referring to him in his Super Saiya-jin form, of course. Even so, base Vegitto is STILL stronger than the mightiest version of Super Buu, hence he retains the second place in the list after, actually, himself, although in his base form he's somewhat less powerful than in his Super Saiya-jin stage, making his base strength as probably not as much as double that of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan. I was referring to Super Vegitto from the start, anyway.
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Chiki wrote:
Ah, when I mentioned Vegitto I was referring to him in his Super Saiya-jin form, of course.
I thought you were talking about Base Vegito. There's zero reason to think Super Vegito is twice as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. Absolutely zero.
We know for a fact it's way above that. If Super Buu, was for example, 70% as powerful as Gohan, that would make Buu with Gohan absorbed about 1.8x more powerful than Gohan (including Piccolo and Goten and Trunks, each around 3% as powerful as Gohan).
Saying Super Vegito is only twice as powerful as Gohan indicates that Super Vegito is only a little bit more powerful than Buuhan. That's not true at all.
There is however reason to think Base Vegito is around twice as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. Base Vegito as portrayed in the anime is about as powerful as Buuhan (slightly more powerful of course, but he probably wouldn't be able to deal with some of Buu's most powerful attacks). If Gohan was a 1, Buuhan was a 1.8 and Base Vegito was 2, this would explain the facts.
You have to keep in mind that we're talking a fused warrior, and the fusion (regardless of the method, dance or Potara) does entail some freakish factors and characteristics. It could be argued that base Vegitto is about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, and I deliberately put Super Vegitto's strength only slightly above that because, due to the sheer nature of the Potara-method fusion technique the warrior's strength doesn't increase exponentially to the same insane degree as it does when compared to non-fused characters; what I'm basically trying to say here is that there's not as huge difference between base Vegitto and Super Saiya-jin Vegitto as there is between a Saiya-jin's base power level and that of his Super Saiya-jin stage(s). Super Vegitto does toy around with the strongest of Super Buu's versions as if he was nothing, he has the fight beyond totally under control, he's insanely powerful, but I wouldn't say that even in his Super Saiya-jin form he's something in the order of tens or hundreds of times stronger than Super Buu when he fights him (or Buuhan, as you choose to call him). Besides, Super Buu is EXTREMELY powerful, but "merely" absorbing powerful warriors doesn't necessarily or automatically mean you're a martial arts expert, there's more to fighting and winning a battle than sheer power; Super Buu is indeed fantastically and massively powerful, but just like Cell in his second form he appears to be unable to/inexperienced at using all the insane power he has at that point to the fullest. If he were wiser and a more skilled martial artist, and if he had time and willingness to become accustomed to his new incredible power, he'd probably give even Super Vegitto a little bit more trouble than he actually did during their fight (basically none).
To summarize, since I put Super Saiya-jin Vegitto only slightly above base Vegitto, yes, I still retain my position that Super Vegitto is just about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (as if that wasn't being INSANELY powerful enough, enough in fact to be the strongest warrior in the entirety of DBZ, and, counting absolutely all the characters in the entire Dragonball franchise, below only the most recent warriors and stages (Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Golden Freeza and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta). As such, you can't really just dismiss my argument of Super Vegitto being "only" about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku as "not true at all" basing yourself too on nothing other than mere speculation, just as I'm doing and anyone else can do.
On another separate note, and just for the sake of example, a lot of fans were arguing that it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to surpass Goku in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage when lashing out at Beerus. Temporary, freak occurrences do happen when discussing the Super Saiya-jin transformations and stages and how each one of them enhances the Saiya-jin's strength, ESPECIALLY taking into account such an other-worldly technique such as Fusion. Vegitto is able to overcome everyone, including Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta, without even going beyond "mere" or "regular" Super Saiya-jin, and so is Gogeta (if you count the Movies, in this case Movie 12).
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Chiki wrote:
Super Vegitto does toy around with the strongest of Super Buu's versions as if he was nothing, he has the fight beyond totally under control, he's insanely powerful, but I wouldn't say that even in his Super Saiya-jin form he's something in the order of tens or hundreds of times stronger than Super Buu when he fights him
As such, you can't really just dismiss my argument of Super Vegitto being "only" about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku as "not true at all" basing yourself too on nothing other than mere speculation, just as I'm doing and anyone else can do.
Here is evidence. We see battles where even if one person is significantly stronger than the other, the weaker one can still perform well. For example, Cell was significantly more powerful than Goku but Goku was still able to significantly hurt him (kill him if not for Cell's regeneration). 100% Freeza (power level 120 million) did pretty well against SSJ Goku (power level 150 million) in the anime, not sure about the manga. This means that Goku is 25% more powerful than Freeza. As you said, Super Vegito vs. Buuhan was beyond totally under Vegito's control. This indicates that the gap between Buuhan and Super Vegito is much greater.
We have no way of knowing how large this gap is. An opponent three times as powerful as Buuhan (this would make Super Vegito over 5 times as powerful as SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan) could have done just as well as an opponent fifty times as powerful as Buuhan. After a certain power gap it doesn't really matter. Super Vegito could have owned Gohan and SSJ3 Goku and Buu and whatever just as easily as Beerus did, but we know for a fact that Super Vegito is much weaker than Beerus.
Because we have no way of knowing how large this gap is, it means that your view has become pure speculation and not mine.
Besides, Super Buu is EXTREMELY powerful, but "merely" absorbing powerful warriors doesn't necessarily or automatically mean you're a martial arts expert, there's more to fighting and winning a battle than sheer power;
Actually it does, because he absorbed Piccolo and Gohan. Buu inherited Piccolo's intelligence when he absorbed him, so obviously he inherited his knowledge about martial arts as well.
Hmm, Vegitto is comprised of both Goku and Vegeta, BOTH of whom "happen" to be pure Saiya-jins, martial arts experts, constantly training and fighting to surpass and overcome their limits, as well as those of everyone else's, they're masters in Ki manipulation and have been constantly perfecting their abilities through incessant fighting for years against the most powerful opponents they could find in each arc before the Majin Buu saga, many of whom were stronger than them at the time of their respective encounters, so one could argue that the resulting being of a perfect fusion between them is not only EXTREMELY powerful, it also has a complete, total and absolute mastery of all aspects of martial arts, and I still think that's just not the case with any of the versions of Super Buu, including the strongest one.
I knew you would come up with the absorption of Piccolo argument, and you're right, absorbing an extremely tactical and intelligent warrior did increase his level of sapience and knowledge (of martial arts and everything else), but he's still far too inexperienced at fighting anyone close to/on par/beyond his level, not to mention the fact that Majin Buu is a magically created creature in his origins and doesn't even probably have the same concept of "good" and "evil" as other normal, emotional beings do. He destroys everything and everyone in sight because that's what his nature is, that's what he was created for, and his level of sapience and his entire attitude - especially in his original, Kid Buu version - comes down to a complete sociopath who relies on his MASSIVE power to have huge fights with opponents enough to challenge him (only a few in the Universe, in fact), so his somewhat-upgraded versions (both in terms of power and as far as knowledge and sapience go) build up on that basis, I think he still lacks a lot of experience and wisdom EVEN after incorporating someone as intelligent as Piccolo in his system.
There really is no definitive way to put an end to this particular debate, nobody's going to come out and officially state just how stronger Super Vegitto is when compared to Super Buu, or any variation of the many fights throughout the Majin Buu arc.
My whole and main point in the previous post was that there's not as huge a difference between base Vegitto and Super Vegitto when compared to the difference there is between a non-fused base Saiya-jin and his Super Saiya-jin version.
Due to the other-wordly effects of Fusion, especially through the Potara method, it's pretty obvious that it allows the ultimately fused warrior to overcome the power limits "imposed" by his physical stage. Vegitto in his base form is obviously stronger than ANYONE else, even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, and he's even slightly stronger than that in his Super Saiya-jin form. I believe that if it wasn't for fusion, this would be almost impossible, there are limits to the power you can reach while in each form (base, Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2, etc.) and only under extremely temporary or strange circumstances can a Saiya-jin go beyond the natural limits "imposed" by each stage (Vegeta surpassing Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku without actually undergoing a transformation beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 is one of the few examples of that throughout DBZ).
On another note, it's been speculated over the years what would happen if Vegitto went beyond Super Saiya-jin and reached Super Saiya-jin 2 (both Goku and Vegeta have arguably completely mastered the stage at the point when they fuse), or even Super Saiya-jin 3 (at least one of them is capable of transforming into it, and the resulting fused warrior should too); as in, would it increase his power by insane proportions? This connects a little bit to what we're discussing. I think Vegitto as a separate entity/warrior is just so perfect and powerful that he's almost as powerful as he can get even in his base form, as in, transforming into ANY Super Saiya-jin stage doesn't increase his power by the rate it does when applied to other non-fused Saiya-jin, but that remains just an unproved theory, and it will never be proven right or wrong anyway.
Speaking of fusion, we discussed this in another thread a few days and weeks ago: it's rather obvious that they're deliberately avoiding to go down that road, but the sheer concept of a merger between Goku and Vegeta is just too appealing, and, perhaps exactly because of that, it hasn't been given enough time to explore and expand upon (Vegitto is only around for a few episodes, and Gogeta isn't even canon, both in Movie 12 and in GT). At least they did at least mention it (Goku does) in DBSuper, just as he does in BoG, so the idea is at least still in the air somewhat. I know it won't happen and it's just too far-fetched a scenario, but going through an exercise of wishful thinking, that's the concept I'd like them to bring back at some point in DBSuper, and I think no Dragonball fan can deny the appeal it has.
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Potanical Pardon wrote:
Tenshinhan trains and trains and trains all the time, same as Piccolo...so I can see them still gradually improving enough to surpass even base-form Gotenks. Tenshinhan's Tri-Beam was the only thing affecting Cell at the time and Piccolo was a Super Namekian back then. 18 could be the same now as she was during the Cell Games, but in any case, these three are relatively around the same level. She wanted to compete at the Tournament for the money even knowing Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were competing so I'm assuming she trained/improved during that ten year gap. And perhaps she continued to afterwards through to now. So yeah, I have no problem with these three fighters improving to the point that their attacks would necessitate needing evasion, as well as being stronger than a couple fused relatively inexperienced half-Saiyans who are just playing around 90% of the time in base form.
And speaking of Krillin...I'm of the opinion that even if he says that he doesn't fight any more, that he helps 18 train. My personal head cannon has always had him above Tenshinhan in ranking ever since the Saiyan Saga. Krillin got way more out of Mr. Popo's training than Tenshinhan...and obviously Yamcha and Chiaotzu. Yajirobe is probably stronger than Piccolo now, but no one will probably ever find out because he's so damn lazy - he's easily the most naturally gifted human fighter. If he actually gave a shit and tried, we all know Tenshinhan and Krillin would be left behind in one of his Senzu bean crop-dusts.
You're joking about Yajirobe being stronger than Piccolo, right? I assume you are.
Human beings are quite limited when it comes to the degree of Ki they can achieve, and in fact, I've always viewed Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha and Chaozu as freakish events, given the fact they're around Goku, Vegeta and some of the most powerful warriors in the Universe (I regard Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaozu's gains from training with Kaiou-sama as somewhat equivalent by the power-up Krillin got from the Elder Namek's power unlock during the early Freeza arc). This might be a little controversial, and part of what I'm going to say next might just have something to do with the fact I'm a hardcore fan of Tenshinhan and not really a big fan of Krillin, but I always believed - and still do - that Tenshinhan is above Krillin. He knows he just can't keep up with Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo, but he's extremely serious about being a martial artist - unlike Krillin -, he's brave enough to try and stall Cell and Super Buu (partially successful) - unlike Krillin - and he keeps on training constantly during his long periods of absence without pretty much anything else in mind other than perfecting his martial arts abilities and skills - again, unlike Krillin.
You can't even compare these exceptional human warriors to the likes of Piccolo, though. Piccolo is a Namek-sei-jin, who are, along other numerous fantastic, strange, original, exceptional and rather unusual traits, gifted warriors, and he just so happens to be one of the most martial arts inclined in his race. His entire background and history set him aside when compared to the rest of his race, he grew up on Earth and went through an almost interminable sequence of changes - splitting in two, fusing with others, training constantly, fusing again with his counterpart, etc. It's pretty impressive for a Namek-sei-jin to be able to fight toe-to-toe to someone as - at that time - insanely powerful as second-form Freeza, but in the Jinzouningen arc he goes even far beyond that and actually manages to be the strongest warrior in the good guys' team - above Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks -, reaching a level of power on par with that of #18 and #17 (who just episodes before dominated SSJ Vegeta effortlessly, and would do just the same to Goku), and slightly below Cell and #16; after that, he pretty much reached his limits in terms of power progression and was unable to keep up with the Saiya-jin and with Majin/Super/Kid Buu, which is the entire reason why he doesn't even show up in Movie 12 and Movie 13 and why he doesn't even fight in the entire Majin Buu arc other than cutting a defenseless Babidi in half; he's stuck training the kids and teaching them the Fusion technique/dance. His tier in terms of power level is much more Jinzouningen and Cell arc-like than Majin Buu arc-like, but he's nonetheless so fantastic a character that his usefulness goes beyond his immense power - hundreds of times above Tenshinhan, in fact -, he possesses a tactical strategic mind and his extremely serious and intelligent, having even incorporated and added Kami's extensive knowledge to his own, which was already above anyone else. His entire character makes his interactions relevant only when something pretty serious is going on, which was the case in episode 7. Other than that, he's stuck with a few seconds of comic gags surrounding his seriousness. These last points are the entire reason why we had to wait until as late as episode 7 of DBSuper to have Piccolo FINALLY display some of his awesome analytic abilities (not so much power, despite the fact it's enormous as well).
But make no mistake, despite the fact that no one on that boat has ANY chance against Beerus, there are enormous gaps between some of the warriors charging at him or doing nothing other than watching, despite the fact Beerus disposes of them just as easily regardless of how powerful they actually are. Piccolo can in no way be compared to the likes of Tenshinhan, he's hundreds of times stronger than the latter, but to Beerus they're all ants anyway.
If Ultimate Gohan, Majin Buu, Gotenks and Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (not to mention Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku) are rendered unconscious so effortlessly, easily and quickly, what can Piccolo, #18 and Tenshinhan possibly do?
Edit: I've actually said it at some point throughout the post twice, but putting Piccolo and Tenshinhan at the same level is almost ridiculous. And yeah, Tenshinhan did manage to stall Cell, but he didn't damage him whatsoever, the sheer force of the continuous Shin Kikoho's were enough to restrict and refrain Cell's movements, but they weren't actually hurting him in the slightest. No matter how much he gained from training with Kaiou-sama and no matter how much of a fantastic fighter he is for an Earthling, he's still leagues below the likes of Piccolo, the mere concept of comparing the two is preposterous.
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Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
imo, not giving SS3 to Vegeta is as wasteful as not giving SS3 to Goten and Trunks.
Except they've already been "given" it in the Majin Buu arc and in Movie 13, in their resulting fused form. A large chunk of fans have been fantasizing over Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 for nearly two decades, and they saw DBSuper - and especially the slight changes and additions made to the story when compared to BoG - as somewhat having the potential to finally bring it on-screen, but absolutely nothing made it a likely scenario, and episode 7 should have put the entire debate and "is Vegeta going to go Super Saiya-jin 3 against Beerus?" questions to a conclusive, decisive end, but apparently fans are STILL talking about it. Most of us knew if wouldn't happen, and it didn't happen, get over it. Even if it DID happen, the stage would/has become obsolete in no time, in actual fact in a matter of episodes, after Goku - who was miserably thrashed and rendered unconscious effortlessly with two masterfully-applied hits by Beerus at Kaiou-sama's as a Super Saiya-jin 3 himself - achieves Super Saiya-jin God, soon to be followed by Vegeta himself, not to mention the further stage(s) they BOTH achieve (incorporating the abilities and power of SSJG without actually undergoing the physical transformation, while keeping all of its benefits and none of its disadvantages, and then going even one step further by attaining Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). The whole Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta is getting pretty annoying, and I'm only speaking for myself, but I'm pretty sure almost everyone shares the same view. It's over, move on and focus on what's coming next.
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Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
btw, that shot of Vegeta having pupil-less eyes looked pretty bad. A far cry from something like this:
Spoiler:View
I'm pretty sure it was intentional.
You're pretty much referring to the most intensely dramatic moment in the whole of DBZ, and I'm not the kind of guy who likes or appreciates specifying just one instead of making entire lists. Goku's "loss" of his pupils when he finally can't take it anymore conveys in a PERFECT way the kind of rage-filled emotion he's feeling, to the point of (even someone as naturally gentle and kind as Goku) losing control over his emotional stability and balance, which can be pretty much compared to instances we've all gone through in the real world, in our own lives, of being so angry at something or someone that we feel like some outside force is forcing its way out of us and act on our "behalf", and we can anticipate that we're not going to be able to keep the beast inside for long. It's far from being the only great moment in the entirety of DB and DBZ, there are many others, and part of what makes DBZ isn't even particular, specific events, but it's definitely perfect regardless of the perspective from which you look at it (except with Kai's music or, even - much - worse, with FUNImation's Bruce Faulconer's one, of course; Shunsuke Kikuchi's background music was a fundamental aspect in what made DB and DBZ so fantastic, and the particular piece they chose for Goku's first Super Saiya-jin moment against Freeza on Namek had been used since the Saiya-jin arc, but it was like it was created specifically for this scene, as it suits it just perfectly, there's just no other way to look at it or describe it).
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Era uma cena que gostavas de ver ? lol
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Bem, ao menos isso prova que andas a ler os meus numerosos posts, pelo menos boa parte deles, o que me satisfaz.
Quando falo em "orgasmos", evidentemente é no sentido figurativo. Fico numa atmosfera, num ambiente e num estado de semi-euforia, simplesmente.
Mas vou deixar de fazer tantos posts e tão longos, eles lêm mas só os mais recentes comentam positivamente, às vezes sinto que estou a escrever demais e com demasiado detalhe e os que têm mais tempo aqui parece que ignoram de propósito.
Mas eu adoro isto.
E há vários portugueses aqui, a seguir a americanos - naturalmente - devemos ser a segunda nacionalidade com mais utilizadores a postar com frequência.
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Despite the arc in which arguably the degree of power levels from the major characters just skyrockets insanely if you compare them at its beginning with what they are at its end (Freeza saga), Gohan is throughout the entirety of DBZ the one who displays the "ability" to tap into an enormous potential which grows exponentially as he trains constantly alongside the team and faces stronger and stronger opponents. In terms of sheer potential, he's by far the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him, which makes it just more of a shame that he lacks the pure Saiya-jin's trait of needing to obsessively train, fight and develop their martial arts skills and power incessantly, because if he was and did, he'd achieve Goku's and Vegeta's feats long before they both do.
I wouldn't say he's the only one to be ABLE to get a power boost, even a relatively large one, though, in special circumstances through another method other than specifically through an incontrollable explosion of anger (temporary psychotic episode, as in, loss of control over one's actions to the point of not even remembering having performed them), which can, just for example, be seen by Vegeta surpassing Goku at the latter's strongest (which means Super Saiya-jin 3) without actually physically transform into any further stage, going beyond the natural power limits "imposed" by the Super Saiya-jin 2 very temporarily.
Gohan surpassed both Goku and Piccolo when he got angry as a f****** baby against Raditz, he surpassed everyone among the team except Goku against Nappa when performing the Masenko after Piccolo dies, he manages to injure second-form Freeza, which even Vegeta failed miserably to do, he achieves Super Saiya-jin Full Power by apparently skipping the in-between stages with ease and overcomes the numerous insane power-ups from Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks throughout the Cell arc, he's the only one who stands a chance to save the world from Cell by going Super Saiya-jin 2, and finally all it takes for him to once again surpass Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, most versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Dabura and perhaps Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is to sit around for a few hours doing absolutely nothing.
Gohan's enormous potential, which he can only really tap into under desperate, out-of-control circumstances during the Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, is identified by Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta as soon as the first episodes of DBZ, during the fight against Raditz (or, if you count the Movies, in Garlic Jr.'s Movie 1).
However, it's becoming rather obvious that he not only has either partially lost his ability to tap into his Ultimate form (and as a Super Saiya-jin 2 his power as an adult is below that of his teen Cell Games version, as stated by Vegeta in the early Majin Buu arc, due to shameful lack of training), and possibly going as far as losing his fighting instincts along with the ability to go Super Saiya-jin 2 altogether (he even states himself that he "MIGHT still be able to go Super Saiya-jin" in Fukkatsu no F), which paints a pretty ridiculous picture of how he's being portrayed in the stuff they've been throwing our way in recent years (2008 Special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, DBSuper), reaching its climax with the way he's rendered out of commission when having his own go at Beerus in episode 7.
Taking into account his massive potential, Gohan could arguably easily outclass both Goku and Vegeta, reach each Super Saiya-jin stage they achieve long before they do, achieve Super Saiya-jin God AND Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin long before Beerus even appears and become pretty much the strongest warrior there is in the Universe, above even the Beerus + Whis duo.
They're clearly having Gohan be quickly and easily replaced by Vegeta in terms of protagonism, after the intention to have him become the franchise's main hero after Goku in the Cell Games and after that (they even had Goku die, serving that specific purpose, and that intention can also be seen just by looking at the opening of the Majin Buu arc) amounted to a completely failed move. Gohan's actual last time to shine was when he showed up to basically thrash Super Buu, but even having acquired and reached such an insane level of power, he's outclassed in a matter of two episodes by stronger versions of Super Buu, and Goku is once again the one to put an end to the menace and threat by being the one to finish off Kid Buu. They're clearly going for Vegeta quickly overpowering him in DBSuper, matching his degree of power to his degree of protagonism accordingly. One could argue, especially the Gohan fans - and I'm not and have never been one of them - that they could at least give him some action and some decent fighting time instead of having him go from being one of the strongest fighters in the Universe from a complete nerdy weakling in a matter of a few months, though.
This thread has seen its fair share of discussion over Gohan's depiction and I've expressed my feelings towards it in the immediate aftermath of the episode's run. I sympathize with the hardcore or not-so-hardcore Gohan fans, but I really think they should prepare themselves for the fact that he's not even a major warrior anymore to consider when it comes to dealing with a serious menace - like Beerus is being portrayed in DBSuper, in contrast to his laid-backness and somewhat comic character in BoG -, and won't become relevant in the franchise, at least nowhere near what he was at some specific points in the past throughout the arcs in DBZ.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
irreality wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Gohan was the supposed to be the only character in the entire series with this feature so this is one issue many of us do have a problem with.
I don't know why people keep saying this. After all, what are SSJ transformations other than a rage boost that ends in a transformation (well... SSJ1 and SSJ2)? That means it is an ability inherent in all Saiyans to some degree. Gohan displays it more strongly/more often because he had so much latent power growing up, and such a low resting power level at first. Doesn't mean other characters don't/can't display bursts of power when angered.
Other characters may get strength from anger, but only Gohan ever attained such dramatic boosts of power by getting mad. Only Gohan could ascend beyond SSJ the way he did against Cell, because he had that latent power; only he could close such wide gaps in seconds between him and literally anyone he fought, no matter how discrepant their power levels. When Vegeta went berserk after the android killed Trunks, he didn't suddenly go SSJ2, or anywhere close. In BoG and Super, Vegeta goes beyond SSJ2, beyond SSJ3, beyond a fusion, and beyond Ultimate Gohan cause his wife got slapped.
Yeah, but Vegeta's episode was/is going to be extremely temporary, just like most of Gohan's "tantrums" in the first half of DBZ; only in the Cell Games is Gohan able to not only - once again - have a massive power-up by an explosion of anger, he's actually for the first time able to maintain that power-up on a constant basis for an extended period of time and keep some degree of control over his emotions when thrashing the Cell Juniors and Cell himself as a Super Saiya-jin 2.
Vegeta's real insane increase in power to reach the level or (close) to the leagues of Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God, Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza by the Freeza arc in DBSuper (or by Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events) will be after he becomes a Super Saiya-jin God, then incorporates the abilities and power of the stage - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then going one step further just like Goku and achieving/developing the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God stage, effectively going from his Majin Buu arc-Super Saiya-jin 2 version to one of the strongest warriors in the Universe once again, "skipping" Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan and all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu.
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irreality wrote:
He doesn't go beyond SSJ3 -- he is still SSJ2. He doesn't get a new transformation out of it.
He doesn't undergo an actual physical transformation other than something he's more than used to (Super Saiya-jin 2); that's why the fact that he still manages to overcome Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku in power should be seen as a very temporary, freakish occurrence (hence the word "mutation" to describe it, present in the episode's title).
That begs the question: are there power limits "imposed" to how strong a Saiya-jin can get in each of the Super Saiya-jin stages or not? Can, in theory, a non-fused Super Saiya-jin be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 2, or a non-fused Super Saiya-jin 2 be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 3? That open a whole can of worms when describing how the entire process of the Super Saiya-jin transformations and stages actually work.
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irreality wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
That begs the question: are there power limits "imposed" to how strong a Saiya-jin can get in each of the Super Saiya-jin stages or not? Can, in theory, a non-fused Super Saiya-jin be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 2, or a non-fused Super Saiya-jin 2 be permanently more powerful than a Super Saiya-jin 3?
I don't see why not, personally.
You (or I) will never be proven right or wrong on any theory about that. What IS rather obvious is that the Fusion technique results in such otherwordly, unique features that it allows a fused Saiya-jin (Vegitto) in his Super Saiya-jin form to go FAR beyond Super Saiya-jin 2 (Vegeta) or even Super Saiya-jin 3 (Goku).
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
irreality wrote:
Other characters may get strength from anger, but only Gohan ever attained such dramatic boosts of power by getting mad. Only Gohan could ascend beyond SSJ the way he did against Cell, because he had that latent power; only he could close such wide gaps in seconds between him and literally anyone he fought, no matter how discrepant their power levels. When Vegeta went berserk after the android killed Trunks, he didn't suddenly go SSJ2, or anywhere close. In BoG and Super, Vegeta goes beyond SSJ2, beyond SSJ3, beyond a fusion, and beyond Ultimate Gohan cause his wife got slapped.
He doesn't go beyond SSJ3 -- he is still SSJ2. He doesn't get a new transformation out of it. He isn't going to "close the gap" between him and Beerus -- Beerus will be startled maybe for one hit, and that is it. It is a boost, but people are overemphasizing how dramatic it is. It almost feels like people are looking for things that could in theory maybe be a plot hole even though they aren't. I'm not sure if they are bothered by Vegeta having a power surge for once, or by Vegeta having strong emotions other than arrogance for once.
Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because only Gohan ever did something doesn't mean it is a plot hole for someone else to be able to do it later.
I didn't mean he went beyond SSJ3. I meant his powers, during his outburst, exceeded that of the only known SSJ3s in the DBverse, as well as a character shown to be much stronger than one of them.
And I'm not saying this is a plot hole either; I'm just stating that Gohan was the only one shown to have this ability in the past (to this extent, anyways). There's that scene in the Cell Games where Vegeta flares up with anger and realizes how important Trunks is to him, but he doesn't receive any sort of boost. The whole thing feels odd, and it takes away from one of Gohan's most unique qualities, imo. Simply put, I don't like it.
The fanboy in me would have preferred it so much more if, instead of Bulma, Videl was slapped AFTER Gohan found out she was pregnant, with no provocation besides pleading to Beerus to stop. This would prompt the greatest rage boost ever seen in Gohan, leading to him beating the living **** out of Beerus for a few seconds before powering down. Not only would this have been an amazing throwback in a movie created over a decade after the series ended, but it'd indicate that Gohan never capped out, and could achieve a power relative to a god on his own.
The scenario you describe would make for a pretty dramatic turn of events; I mean, a husband who loves his wife, having just found out she's pregnant with their baby, she gets slapped for doing nothing special by a guy who shows up to disrupt a peaceful party with friends and family and just KO'd every single one with his arrogance + insanely extreme power combo; yeah, that would make Gohan fly off the handle, along the lines of most of Gohan's rage "tantrums" during the first half of DBZ, and considering his potential, which is arguably greater than that of Vegeta, he would get an insane power boost, although temporary.
However, that would only happen IF they didn't very deliberately decided to make Gohan a tertiary character and an obsolete warrior, basically replacing him for Vegeta both in terms of protagonism AND in terms of power (accordingly matching one to each other, in the case of Vegeta, for the duration and remainder of Super - by Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events, Vegeta is in the leagues of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Beerus and Whis, while Gohan isn't even f****** sure if he can go Super Saiya-jin anymore, and this might just be the perfect example of the state of affairs regarding Gohan's depiction and his level of protagonism and power, alongside his next-to-ridiculous rendering out of commission when having his go at Beerus himself in episode 7 of DBSuper).
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We really can't and shouldn't compare GT to DBSuper. GT was made in a rush, and while some of the characters and villains had some potential to them, there really is nothing to latch onto in order to deem it a worthy successor of DBZ; it took on the worst elements from the Majin Buu arc, by which time Toriyama was already pretty much - and understandably - running out of ideas (hence some of the silliness present in the saga) and none of the factors that made the later stages of DBZ and the entirety of DBZ so fantastic. After being almost "forced" to continue keeping up with new stories, characters, transformations and events with the same quality as always on a constant basis for over a decade, Toriyama wanted to put a quick end to DBZ - hence the unsatisfactory ending to it with those last 3 episodes -, and didn't want anything do to with GT. It could even be argued that GT was made for commercial purposes more than anything, at Dragonball's peak (or one of the peaks) of popularity in terms of TV series/franchise, with a "striking while the iron's hot" mentality behind it.
DBSuper, on the other hand, features entirely new characters and events placed just at the right time (exploring the 10 year gap in-between the defeat of Kid Buu and the last 3 episodes of DBZ), retelling the stories of the two great and large theatrical features they threw our way in pretty much the exact same circumstances, which after all this time might be seen as having been just the right way to approach the series, but indicative that at the time they made BoG in 2013 and Fukkatsu no F in 2015 they didn't, at the time, intend on generating an entirely new full-fledged TV series. After 11 years of inactivity, Toriyama has now fresh ideas in his creative process and we can look at the 2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as the slow but steady build-up for the real bomb: an entirely new series.
I don't see how DBSuper could be Dragonball's "last hope", as you put it, in terms of producing TV series for the franchise. Dragonball is immortal, it will never end and its potential is limitless. Even if they screwed up big time with it, they could always wait for a while, generate a new f****** fantastic Special or Movie just like BoG and the hype would reach the previous degrees in a flash.
It's becoming more and more obvious, as the series' episodes progress, that the entire retelling of BoG will take about 12 episodes, as previously estimated, after which we'll most likely get about two smoother episodes leading to the retelling of Fukkatsu no F, which should also be done within a matter of about 12 episodes, so one could argue and estimate that by episode 24/26 we should be moving on to the arc within DBSuper which really features entirely new, previous unseen characters, villains and events, in the exploration of the 6th Universe. Up until now, there's really no official and/or final information on whether or not they'll produce more episodes AFTER the 6th Universe arc still under the umbrella of DBSuper, but assuming they don't, I'd say it will be the last arc within the series, but also the longer one, so the entire thing will probably be comprised of far less than 100 episodes, but anyway, it's just like I said in previous paragraphs, after that there's always potential to tap onto and continue the story, either before and/or after the 10 year gap we've been exploring recently. No matter what road they choose to go down, a Dragonball TV series, or indeed any Special or Movie or anything related to the franchise will only fail if it's done really hastily, but even in that case the potential for complete and full recovery in a matter of years or even months is there and will always be. That's how I look at it.
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rereboy wrote:
No one thought or knew about SSJ2 in the Cell games. The transformation is even only named in the Buu saga. What Goku wanted was for Gohan to go all out and access his potential, and he estimated that, if he did, he would be able to defeat Cell, and he was right because, even within SSJ2, Gohan had to achieve a power boost during the beam struggle to defeat Cell. It was never about Gohan unlocking an extra transformation, it was all about Gohan accessing his power which Goku figured was their best hope to defeat Cell. Gohan accessing an extra transformation, was just that, him accessing an extra transformation, but the key to his win, and what Goku hoped for, were his characteristics power boosts once he accessed them. SSJ2 is not part of Gohan's power boosts.
I agree, Goku, who was the one behind the entire strategy of having Gohan, first of all, achieve Super Saiya-jin, then mastering all aspects of it (Super Saiya-jin Full Power), then have one of his explosions of anger triggering an insane increase of power exponentially, which Goku calculated to be enough to beat Cell (other than that, nobody had the power or potential to save the world from Cell), did know that Gohan would receive a massive power up if he was pushed to his emotional limits just like he did throughout the first half of DBZ, but he didn't know it would amount to an actual physical transformation into another, further Super Saiya-jin stage. One could argue whether it was "necessary" for Gohan to undergo a transformation into Super Saiya-jin 2, if it was the fact that he reached that stage that gave him the power he had, or if he would be powerful enough to overcome Cell even if he didn't physically transform into Super Saiya-jin 2, though.
The thing about Super Saiya-jin 2 is that it's the only stage which we've seen all the Saiya-jins achieve through different methods ("regular" Super Saiya-jin is typically achieved by an explosion of anger - Goku over Freeza killing Krillin, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his frustration, Bardock over his hatred towards Freeza and Chilled, Gohan over his desire to stop being a crybaby -, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai are achieved through intensive training, Super Saiya-jin Full Power is achieved through a complete mastery of all aspects of the SSJ stage, and Super Saiya-jin 3 is achieved through intensive training by an martial arts/energy or Ki-wise manipulation exceptionally expert gifted Saiya-jin, while Super Saiya-jin 2 is, in the case of teen Gohan at the Cell Games, achieved through an explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta both achieved it at some point during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc through intense training).
It's also the TRUE SSJ stage that really goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin", which is an expression used numerous times throughout the Cell arc by Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks. I've always viewed the "regular" Super Saiya-jin stage as having four ramifications within it (normal Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power), but those four, while going beyond the first, "regular" SSJ stage, are still under the umbrella of the entire first Super Saiya-jin stage; the transformation that really goes beyond the first one (and all of its four ramifications) is Super Saiya-jin 2 (hence the numbering, in fact).
irreality wrote:
His ability to access strength through emotion is what made it so he could become SSJ2 before anyone else
rereboy wrote:
So? Vegeta and Goku unlocked SSJ2 just by training so, obviously, Gohan's power boosts and emotion aren't an essential part of the transformation. Gohan got his characteristic power boosts plus managed to unlock an extra transformation in the Cell games thanks to his rage and sudden increase in power. They are different things.
It could be postulated or theorized that he "happened" to be at a point in terms of power (Super Saiya-jin Full Power) in which, in case he got out-of-control and had one of his psychotic rage tantrums, he'd achieve a level of power far beyond what Goku, Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks and Cell had at that time. I'm leaning more towards the fact that this was the one and only time in which Gohan's numerous "tantrums" resulted in an actual physical, further transformation. It's just normal he was the first one to reach the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, before he did it he was at the same level as Goku was and slightly above Vegeta and Trunks, all of whom lack Gohan's ability to get enormous power boosts through an explosion of anger.
rereboy wrote:
No, the whole point was that Gohan was the only one with the potential power to defeat Cell and that he would he be able to do it if he accessed his potential power, just like he did many times before, only in a more decisive way to defeat Cell for good. The point was never about SSJ2 or that SSj2 was somehow special or linked to Gohan. You are confusing the two things.
I agree, like I said in the first paragraph nobody even knew there was such a thing as a Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation. Goku merely calculated that with the level of power Gohan had when he showed up at the Cell Games, he'd be powerful enough to go beyond even Cell if he happened to be pushed to his emotional limits; Goku wasn't counting on an actual physical transformation into a further Super Saiya-jin stage, he was just thinking about sheer power and not transformations. Goku and Vegeta do realize at some point, during the process of reaching SSJ2 themselves during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, that the stage is an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation which can in theory be achieved by anyone, and that Gohan was merely the first one to reach it given the circumstances. The stage which teen Gohan reaches after Cell blows #16's head away wasn't supposed or thought to be an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation at the time by anyone, even after witnessing it and while seeing SSJ2 Gohan in action, and it's not even named and identified by the viewers as a separate, specific stage which is not achievable by Gohan only until the Majin Buu arc. Initially, it was conceived to be a Gohan-thing only, and the creators were probably not even sure whether or not it was an actual further, specific SSJ transformation themselves, they only decided it was an actual separate and very clearly identifiable Super Saiya-jin stage in the Majin Buu arc, by having Goku and Vegeta reach it, use it and even refer very specifically to it, thus making it clear it wasn't a Gohan-thing only, it was a stage which could in theory be reached by any Saiya-jin, given the right set of circumstances.
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rereboy wrote:
No one thought or knew about SSJ2 in the Cell games. The transformation is even only named in the Buu saga. What Goku wanted was for Gohan to go all out and access his potential, and he estimated that, if he did, he would be able to defeat Cell, and he was right because, even within SSJ2, Gohan had to achieve a power boost during the beam struggle to defeat Cell. It was never about Gohan unlocking an extra transformation, it was all about Gohan accessing his power which Goku figured was their best hope to defeat Cell. Gohan accessing an extra transformation, was just that, him accessing an extra transformation, but the key to his win, and what Goku hoped for, were his characteristics power boosts once he accessed them. SSJ2 is not part of Gohan's power boosts.
I agree, Goku, who was the one behind the entire strategy of having Gohan, first of all, achieve Super Saiya-jin, then mastering all aspects of it (Super Saiya-jin Full Power), then have one of his explosions of anger triggering an insane increase of power exponentially, which Goku calculated to be enough to beat Cell (other than that, nobody had the power or potential to save the world from Cell), did know that Gohan would receive a massive power up if he was pushed to his emotional limits just like he did throughout the first half of DBZ, but he didn't know it would amount to an actual physical transformation into another, further Super Saiya-jin stage. One could argue whether it was "necessary" for Gohan to undergo a transformation into Super Saiya-jin 2, if it was the fact that he reached that stage that gave him the power he had, or if he would be powerful enough to overcome Cell even if he didn't physically transform into Super Saiya-jin 2, though.
The thing about Super Saiya-jin 2 is that it's the only stage which we've seen all the Saiya-jins achieve through different methods ("regular" Super Saiya-jin is typically achieved by an explosion of anger - Goku over Freeza killing Krillin, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his frustration, Bardock over his hatred towards Freeza and Chilled, Gohan over his desire to stop being a crybaby -, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai are achieved through intensive training, Super Saiya-jin Full Power is achieved through a complete mastery of all aspects of the SSJ stage, and Super Saiya-jin 3 is achieved through intensive training by an martial arts/energy or Ki-wise manipulation exceptionally expert gifted Saiya-jin, while Super Saiya-jin 2 is, in the case of teen Gohan at the Cell Games, achieved through an explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta both achieved it at some point during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc through intense training).
It's also the TRUE SSJ stage that really goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin", which is an expression used numerous times throughout the Cell arc by Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks. I've always viewed the "regular" Super Saiya-jin stage as having four ramifications within it (normal Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power), but those four, while going beyond the first, "regular" SSJ stage, are still under the umbrella of the entire first Super Saiya-jin stage; the transformation that really goes beyond the first one (and all of its four ramifications) is Super Saiya-jin 2 (hence the numbering, in fact).
irreality wrote:
His ability to access strength through emotion is what made it so he could become SSJ2 before anyone else
rereboy wrote:
So? Vegeta and Goku unlocked SSJ2 just by training so, obviously, Gohan's power boosts and emotion aren't an essential part of the transformation. Gohan got his characteristic power boosts plus managed to unlock an extra transformation in the Cell games thanks to his rage and sudden increase in power. They are different things.
It could be postulated or theorized that he "happened" to be at a point in terms of power (Super Saiya-jin Full Power) in which, in case he got out-of-control and had one of his psychotic rage tantrums, he'd achieve a level of power far beyond what Goku, Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks and Cell had at that time. I'm leaning more towards the fact that this was the one and only time in which Gohan's numerous "tantrums" resulted in an actual physical, further transformation. It's just normal he was the first one to reach the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, before he did it he was at the same level as Goku was and slightly above Vegeta and Trunks, all of whom lack Gohan's ability to get enormous power boosts through an explosion of anger.
rereboy wrote:
No, the whole point was that Gohan was the only one with the potential power to defeat Cell and that he would he be able to do it if he accessed his potential power, just like he did many times before, only in a more decisive way to defeat Cell for good. The point was never about SSJ2 or that SSj2 was somehow special or linked to Gohan. You are confusing the two things.
I agree, like I said in the first paragraph nobody even knew there was such a thing as a Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation. Goku merely calculated that with the level of power Gohan had when he showed up at the Cell Games, he'd be powerful enough to go beyond even Cell if he happened to be pushed to his emotional limits; Goku wasn't counting on an actual physical transformation into a further Super Saiya-jin stage, he was just thinking about sheer power and not transformations. Goku and Vegeta do realize at some point, during the process of reaching SSJ2 themselves during the 7 year gap between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc, that the stage is an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation which can in theory be achieved by anyone, and that Gohan was merely the first one to reach it given the circumstances. The stage which teen Gohan reaches after Cell blows #16's head away wasn't supposed or thought to be an actual specific Super Saiya-jin transformation at the time by anyone, even after witnessing it and while seeing SSJ2 Gohan in action, and it's not even named and identified by the viewers as a separate, specific stage which is not achievable by Gohan only until the Majin Buu arc. Initially, it was conceived to be a Gohan-thing only, and the creators were probably not even sure whether or not it was an actual further, specific SSJ transformation themselves, they only decided it was an actual separate and very clearly identifiable Super Saiya-jin stage in the Majin Buu arc, by having Goku and Vegeta reach it, use it and even refer very specifically to it, thus making it clear it wasn't a Gohan-thing only, it was a stage which could in theory be reached by any Saiya-jin, given the right set of circumstances.
irreality wrote:
SSJ is not "totally different," anyway. It is pretty much the exact situation described, sans golden hair. The transformation helps stabilize the increase in power from emotions and make it long term. But it is the ability to access hidden power through emotions that *causes* the transformation in the first place. Without that ability, the transformation is impossible -- only having higher levels of power is not sufficient, which is why it was so hard for Vegeta to transform the first time, since he was so against emotional growth. until recently.
Yes, the way the first, "regular" Super Saiya-jin form is achieved is through an explosion of anger, or some other emotion within the range of rage, desperation or frustration, to extreme degrees. That's exactly why Vegeta takes so much time to reach it. It's clearly stated in DBZ that the "requirements" to achieve Super Saiya-jin include a fair enough amount of power in the Saiya-jin's base form (although the event is non-canon, the fact that Bardock achieved it while having a power level close to 10.000 would mean that, power level-wise, that figure is enough for a Saiya-jin to go SSJ, which means King Vegeta, just for example, would also be able to reach it if he was angry or desperate enough), a "pure" heart (in Vegeta's case, purely evil), and the final trigger, without which the transformation is just impossible, which is being pushed to one's emotional limits (in Vegeta's case, and just for example' sake, his desperation upon realizing he's no match for Freeza in episode 85, to the point of crying over it, is not enough of a catalyst, he loses his will to fight altogether); Goku came pretty close emotionally when he was being drowned by Freeza in episode 91, but it took his best friend getting killed mercilessly and brutally before his own eyes by his nemesis to go emotionally berserk, although he had since long before reached a level of power more than enough to go SSJ under the right set of circumstances. All Saiya-jins and half-Saiya-jins are so powerful when they each reach Super Saiya-jin for the first time that it seems pretty inevitable and just a matter of time - the right circumstances, an explosion of anger - to reach the stage. In Vegeta's case, he just became completely furious over his frustration, Bardock taps more into extreme desperation and anger/hatred, Mirai no Trunks loses his shit upon seeing Gohan dead in Special 2, and Gohan finally turns Super Saiya-jin out of a "respectful" of anger at himself and at the circumstances, going as far as asking his father to throw everything at him as if he wanted to kill him. These transformations were all made possible by the right set of circumstances, and would be impossible if there wasn't the element or factor of extreme emotional distress, especially anger and desperation (and by "extreme" I really do mean extreme, simply being sort of pissed off won't do it, they need to go next-to-berserk at an emotional level).
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SSJGBGoku wrote:
I am too hoping that they change the OP and ED (might) for the universe 6 and FnF saga both.
They're probably gonna go the way of Kai and throw different parts of animation for the opening and ending sequences, each fitting the arc that's running. The first "round" of Kai from 2009 to 2011, covering everything from the Saiya-jin arc to the Cell Games, had a total of four different sequences in the second half of the opening (one for the Saiya-jin arc, one for the Freeza arc, one for the Jinzouningen arc and one for the Cell arc), while keeping the opening theme always the same; in the second round they went for a complete renewal, with an unchanged animation sequence and new opening and closing themes.
No matter how long DBSuper is going to run for, I'd think we'll get slight changes in the sequence of images seen in the opening for the Beerus arc, the Freeza arc and the 6th Universe arc, but they could also keep the opening exactly as it is throughout the entirety of the series. We do have bits and parts of the Freeza arc (the soldiers Goku and Vegeta are seen fighting, with Freeza's army typical armors) and the 6th Universe arc (Champa and his attendant) in the opening we've already seen. We really will have to see. One thing they will obviously not touch is the themes, though, and thank goodness for that, because they're just f****** fantastic, especially the opening one.
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
And he actually goes as far as to say pretty much the same exact thing Freeza says to Vegeta in episode 78 of DBZ, something along the lines of "you're just as foolish as your father was", making the already existent similarities between Beerus and Freeza - which is something at least I've posted about at least once in the last weeks, but I think other fans did as well - grow one step further.
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Hey,
Já ando para te fazer esta pergunta há algum tempo, mas só agora me deu para te escrever mesmo: tu gostas dos meus posts compridos e detalhados, e às vezes repetitivos, aqui no Kanzenshuu? Às vezes dá-me a sensação de que os membros mais antigos me ignoram de propósito por ser relativamente novo no forum e ao mesmo tempo "dar ares" de arrogante ou sabe-tudo, mas pode ser só impressão minha. Não consigo nem quero escrever de outra forma, seja na forma seja no conteúdo.
Já agora, és de onde?
Não achas interessante que, evidentemente a seguir a americanos, aparentemente sejam de Portugal os membros mais activos no forum? Somos pelo menos uns 4 ou 5 a postar com maior ou menor regularidade e frequência.
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
And he actually goes as far as to say pretty much the same exact thing Freeza says to Vegeta in episode 78 of DBZ, something along the lines of "you're just as foolish as your father was", making the already existent similarities between Beerus and Freeza - which is something at least I've posted about at least once in the last weeks, but I think other fans did as well - grow one step further.
This was pretty awesome reference, like that they added it! Super is making BoG looking better and better. I am even glad (I guess) that they went with it after all. BoG really lacked all this neat stuff, which they added here.
Yeah, from certain perspectives DBSuper is obviously superior to BoG (storytelling-wise being one of them, which is just natural, given the sheer fact that you can't properly develop a solid story in a theatrical feature like BoG or Fukkatsu no F, or any of the other 13 Movies, due to the typical time restraints), we get more content, more character background and development, more fighting, more of everything, but on the other hand the animation is, also obviously and also understandably, weaker.
It still is (and will probably always remain) debatable whether retelling the events of BoG (and presumably Fukkatsu no F) so closely in DBSuper (sometimes the characters say the exact same words using the same exact expressions) was a better decision than changing the whole thing dramatically, but Toriyama basically just thought "well, since we're getting a new full-fledged TV series, then this is the perfect opportunity to tell the stories of BoG and Fukkatsu no F exactly as I originally intended, in the first episodes and arcs to get it out of the way as soon as possible, since I couldn't do it in the movies to lack of time and the need to cut some stuff out". They are, however, throwing some minor changes and additions here and there, but overall they're still keeping the sequence of events and circumstances pretty much the same. It's the minor details they've added that catch our eye immediately, and we've gotten a bunch of them in every single episode.
It could be argued whether the fighting choreography in episode 7 was superior to that of BoG (everyone vs Beerus), but I personally have to admit that, although everyone is KO'd extremely fast in BoG, I still prefer the movie's version of it, even though we get less fighting time, simply because the way Beerus renders especially Piccolo unconscious was just fantastic (two apparently simple but masterfully-applied pressure-point attacks to the body with a f****** chopstick, that's just insane, and that's Piccolo we're talking about, someone who far exceeds full-power Freeza or a Super Saiya-jin in power); it might be seen as just "too quick", but it's actually the fact that it's so easy and so quick for Beerus to KO even extremely powerful warriors without any effort whatsoever that makes it pretty obvious he's far beyond anything they've encountered before.
One thing I'm giving DBSuper the advantage when compared to BoG is the much darker light in which Beerus is being portrayed. In the movie, he's laid-back and even comic, in DBSuper he's coming across almost as a full-fledged sadistic villain, something which reached its climax in the way he humiliates Vegeta and his father, mercilessly thrashes Majin Buu and renders Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku unconscious in a brutal way seconds after he coldly approaches him and drops that last line at him; regardless of the animation aspect of the episode of SSJ3 vs Beerus in Kaiou-sama's planet - which isn't as awful as we initially thought, everyone just went into too much detail, analyzing everything frame by frame, because watching the episode from beginning to end it doesn't really look THAT horribly animated -, just the seconds it takes between Beerus starting to approach Goku to finally attack him and Goku being sent to the ground unconscious is one of the most brutal KO's seen in the entire history of Dragonball. It, along with the other instances I referred to, was presented in a much more dramatic and serious light when compared to BoG. In the movie we didn't get to see Piccolo starting to panic or Gohan saying "it appears we're up against a tremendous enemy this time" in a very serious way, these are fundamental things when it comes to the drama/desperation present throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs of DBZ, and they somewhat recovered it in episode 7 in a certain way. When Piccolo starts making comments on how horrifyingly powerful a new opponent is, that's when you know things are getting pretty serious and out of control.
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Noah wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
I hope Vegeta to be the one who will kill Beerus, not in RoF Arc probably later, it would be pretty awesome
I bet everything I have Beerus will never be killed (at least not as a villain who absolutely needs to be removed as a menace, which also won't happen). Beerus is indeed being portrayed in a much darker/more dramatic/more serious light when compared to BoG, like I wrote in my previous post, but he's not a full-fledged maniacal genocidal villain like Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu (he probably doesn't even have the same concept of "evil" or "good" as other normal, regular emotional beings do). He's got just too much potential to be killed, especially by Vegeta or any other warrior belonging to the team "good guys", and he'll probably be gradually accepted as somewhat part of the team after his fight with Super Saiya-jin God Goku and especially after the Freeza arc, something resembling the very gradual and incremental process of Piccolo and Vegeta going from psychotic genocidal maniacal evil villains to full-fledged good guys seen in DBZ (in Tenshinhan's case, all it takes is a few advices from Muten Roshi and one arc, Piccolo is done with the process and all but loses all traits of evil inside of him within one or two arcs, and Vegeta completes the whole process by the early/mid Majin Buu arc).
Beerus may be sadistically thrashing and humiliating everyone, he may destroy entire planets beyond his duties at his whims, he might enjoy the sight of planets blowing up (the ones he actually caused to blow up intentionally, just like Freeza), but he'll never have a serious, specific agenda to rule the planet (like Piccolo Daimao and his son/reincarnation), rule the Universe and attain immortality (like Vegeta in his early days and Freeza), kill Goku and exterminate Earth and every one of its inhabitants (like Cell) or just destroy everyone and everything in sight (like Kid Buu), hence there'll never be the NEED to kill him. Good guys (like Beerus) should not and are not killed by good guys (like Vegeta), that doesn't make sense and it goes against everything seen in Dragonball before in terms of the killing trends.
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Vou-te confessar uma coisa. Eu tenho uma certa obsessão - visível, acho eu - em ser o mais detalhado e aprofundado possível nos meus posts, daí o tamanho de cada um, mas também sou relativamente obsessivo na "necessidade" que tenho de que todos me leiam, e sei que a maioria o faz e com atenção, mas provavelmente por raramente ter a certeza absoluta disso porque raramente me citam, acabo por escrever posts que resultam em repetições exaustivas de opiniões que já tinha manifestado até mais do que uma vez. Quanto mais vezes escrever o mesmo conceito e a mesma perspectiva sobre um determinado assunto em particular, maiores as hipóteses de que todos o leiam, mas também tenho a noção de que os meus textos nunca vão ser lidos na íntegra por todos, mas já me dava por satisfeito se fossem lidos na íntegra por (como mero exemplo) utilizadores que postam frequentemente como tu.
Eu também não leio tudo sobre assuntos que não me interessam tanto, daí restringir e limitar os meus posts a apenas algumas threads específicas. Mas quando o assunto me interessa e quando escrevi um ou vários posts sobre um assunto a detalhar uma ou várias ideias específicas, sinto mesmo necessidade de que todos leiam tudo na íntegra, mas sei que isso nem sempre acontece e também não tenho maneira de saber - chegar ao ponto de perguntar seria ridículo.
Sim, são mais do que 4 ou 5 membros, mas dos que vejo a postar com bastante ou alguma frequência somos 4 ou 5. Também me surpreende que tanto eu como tu como um outro português tenhamos um nível de inglês tão elevado, semelhante ou equivalente ao de um inglês ou americano. Devíamos ter orgulho nesse aspecto em particular e também na quantidade e na qualidade da nossa participação no Kanzenshuu, não achas?
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
It would be pretty weird at this point to dive into Universe 6 with Super Saiyan God still being teased in the opening. I think it's pretty likely that we'll get a combination of Kai updates for the OP and ED. The OP will likely receive tweaked segments that better reflect the events going on in the arc, similar to Dragon Soul in Kai 1.0, The ED animation and songs will probably just be replaced entirely every cour, like with Kai 2,0.
Exactly. The first "round" of Kai from 2009 to 2011 had a total of 4 different pieces of animation during the second half of the opening (one for the Saiya-jin arc, one for the Freeza arc, one for the Jinzouningen arc and one for the Cell arc), while keeping the first half of the opening exactly the same throughout the series, also with the same theme. I'd think DBSuper is going to do exactly the same, matching parts of the animation within the opening to fit the arc that's running at the time, even though we already get hints at the Freeza arc (Vegeta and Goku fighting Freeza's army-armored soldiers) and the 6th Universe arc (the appearance of Champa and his attendant alongside Beerus and Whis).
One thing which will definitely change is the image shown in the background when the episode's title shows up - we're getting the image of Beerus at this point, and I assume we'll get Freeza's and then Champa's or that of whoever the major antagonist/villain of the 6th Universe arc will be.
Do you guys think DBSuper is going to run BEYOND the 6th Universe arc?
All of this time we've been discussing it as if there were only going to be three arcs within the TV series, as that's the only official information we have, but that doesn't mean they won't extend it and have further arcs beyond the major third one. If DBSuper stops at a total of 3 arcs it not only faintly reminds me of GT (also 3 major arcs), it's also impossible to make it able to stretch to anything beyond 50 episodes or something around that number, unless the 6th Universe arc turns out to be much longer than the other ones. We can estimate that the Beerus arc will be done within a total of 12/14 episodes, and the Freeza arc as well, with two or three episodes in-between, so it's likely the 6th Universe arc will begin by episode 28/30 at the latest, making it pretty hard to stretch DBSuper to something around 100 episodes (if there's no other major arc after the 6th Universe one, it would need to be about 70 episodes-long, which seems too much of a far-fetched scenario to me, that kind of episode numbers was typical only of DBZ's major arcs from two decades ago).
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Beerus-sama wrote:
I just hope that by the time of FnF Vegeta's fear for Beerus would be gone...
Noah wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
He even treated Vegeta just like his father, a nice touch. Hope it leads to something next.
I hope Vegeta to be the one who will kill Beerus, not in RoF Arc probably later, it would be pretty awesome
I wouldn't like my second favorite character to kill my favorite character :cry:
At least you got to go through the experience of having them fighting each other, with the resulting mixed feelings. Despite numerous threats and close calls, my two favorite characters in the entirety of the Dragonball franchise - Vegeta and Piccolo - NEVER actually landed a single hit on each other (not counting the small fight Vegeta has with the image(s) projected by Super Buu inside his body, which is NOT Piccolo, or Piccolo grabbing Vegeta by his f****** hair through the hair in Movie 8, which is non-canon). Vegeta quickly took Piccolo's exact place as Goku's not-so-evil-but-previously-villain rival in DBZ, and the interactions between these two fantastically developed proud warriors builds up so much tension that one would think it'd be inevitable for them to eventually fight each other (Piccolo does threaten Vegeta that he's going to be next after he takes care of Freeza in episode 81, and they come close to start a fight after arguments in episodes 123 - broken by Goku himself - and 145), but they actually never did.
Beerus not only has a decades-long connection with Vegeta, he has a slightly tweaked version of the leverage Freeza has over him, and they DO fight just minutes after Vegeta does everything he can to avoid it (whether it's an awkward bingo dance or acting as a chef, that's going pretty far for someone as serious and proud as Vegeta).
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
At least you got to go through the experience of having them fighting each other, with the resulting mixed feelings. Despite numerous threats and close calls, my two favorite characters in the entirety of the Dragonball franchise - Vegeta and Piccolo - NEVER actually landed a single hit on each other (not counting the small fight Vegeta has with the image(s) projected by Super Buu inside his body, which is NOT Piccolo, or Piccolo grabbing Vegeta by his f****** hair through the hair in Movie 8, which is non-canon). Vegeta quickly took Piccolo's exact place as Goku's not-so-evil-but-previously-villain rival in DBZ, and the interactions between these two fantastically developed proud warriors builds up so much tension that one would think it'd be inevitable for them to eventually fight each other (Piccolo does threaten Vegeta that he's going to be next after he takes care of Freeza in episode 81, and they come close to start a fight after arguments in episodes 123 - broken by Goku himself - and 145), but they actually never did.
Beerus not only has a decades-long connection with Vegeta, he has a slightly tweaked version of the leverage Freeza has over him, and they DO fight just minutes after Vegeta does everything he can to avoid it (whether it's an awkward bingo dance or acting as a chef, that's going pretty far for someone as serious and proud as Vegeta).
I would love for Piccolo to fight Vegeta, or for Vegeta to finally fight Beerus. These fights should be settled once and for all. By the way, considering how much I liked both Tenshinhan and Yamcha, the fight between them was one of my favorite ones. I just like to see rivals fighting in this series.
On that note, Tenshinhan comes in third place right after Vegeta and Piccolo in my personal list of favorite all-time Dragonball characters. You can definitely see a pattern there: serious, proud warriors who were at first presented as ruthless and evil (by putting Piccolo I'm deliberately refraining from including his father Piccolo Daimao in the list, as Piccolo is pretty much, more than a son, the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, and the main reasons for me having so much respect and deep feelings for Piccolo dates back to his evil days where he acted pretty much the same way Piccolo Daimao did - my kanji says it all, I think).
Tenshinhan being so high in my list might explain why I've always regarded him as being the strongest Earthling there is, above Krillin, arguing that he actually keeps training on a constant basis, unlike Krillin, he puts martial arts above everything else and takes it seriously, unlike Krillin, has no distractions, unlike Krillin, he manages to stall Cell in a badass unexpected intervention, unlike Krillin, and underwent the same type of power development as Krillin did - Krillin got his power multiplied by the Namek Elder, Tenshinhan got a lot from his training at Kaiou-sama's planet. Simply being Goku's best friend and much more of a protagonist throughout DBZ than Tenshinhan, who has long periods of hermit-like absence, doesn't automatically make Krillin the strongest.
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Noah wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Do you guys think DBSuper is going to run BEYOND the 6th Universe arc?
I hope not, don't really want to see a SSGSS Rainbow bullsh*t or something, I actually hope that SSGSS is the last transformation we ever see
Well, if we go through the entirety of DBZ ever since we first saw a Super Saiya-jin transformation, there are numerous SSJ stages, and after so many years of inactivity, all of a sudden, in a matter of two years we got introduced to THREE new Super Saiya-jin stages (Super Saiya-jin God, Saiya-jin beyond God - a Saiya-jin who incorporated the abilities and power of the SSJG stage in his base form - and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin), as if one wasn't enough.
That doesn't mean that the rate at which they introduce(d) new Super Saiya-jin stages for Goku (and Vegeta) to keep up with the degree of power of the Beerus + Whis duo will be the same from now onward, I honestly think they'll stop at Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin at least for the duration of DBSuper. Although both Vegeta and Goku as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin are shown to be still below Beerus (and thus, also Whis) in Fukkatsu no F, the stage is indeed a further development in terms of abilities and power when compared to Super Saiya-jin God, and in that stage they're getting pretty close to the likes of Beerus and Whis (Whis even comments in the movie that if they teamed up in that stage they'd be able to beat Beerus). If whatever or whoever the new menace that shows up in the 6th Universe arc is on par with or even beyond Beerus and Whis, then the ultimate way to defeat them will be either to have Goku and Vegeta team up as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin or have Beerus (and perhaps even Whis) fight alongside them (not matter how much I'd like to have the concept of fusion between Goku and Vegeta brought to the series again, and now matter how much I think that its potential hasn't been properly explored - we only saw Vegitto for a few episodes and Gogeta, whether in Movie 12 or in GT, isn't even canon and shows up only for an extremely short period of time, I'm pretty sure it won't happen, but just imagine how INSANELY powerful a fusion, regardless of the method (Potara or dance) between Goku and Vegeta would be after they reach the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage; none of the fusion methods merely add the power of one of the fusees to the other one's, it multiplies them exponentially, so the level of power of a fused Vegitto or Gogeta by the time of the Freeza arc in DBSuper (or Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events) would basically be arguably the strongest warrior there ever was in the entire Universe(s).
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Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
On that note, Tenshinhan comes in third place right after Vegeta and Piccolo in my personal list of favorite all-time Dragonball characters. You can definitely see a pattern there: serious, proud warriors who were at first presented as ruthless and evil (by putting Piccolo I'm deliberately refraining from including his father Piccolo Daimao in the list, as Piccolo is pretty much, more than a son, the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, and the main reasons for me having so much respect and deep feelings for Piccolo dates back to his evil days where he acted pretty much the same way Piccolo Daimao did - my kanji says it all, I think).
Tenshinhan being so high in my list might explain why I've always regarded him as being the strongest Earthling there is, above Krillin, arguing that he actually keeps training on a constant basis, unlike Krillin, he puts martial arts above everything else and takes it seriously, unlike Krillin, has no distractions, unlike Krillin, he manages to stall Cell in a badass unexpected intervention, unlike Krillin, and underwent the same type of power development as Krillin did - Krillin got his power multiplied by the Namek Elder, Tenshinhan got a lot from his training at Kaiou-sama's planet. Simply being Goku's best friend and much more of a protagonist throughout DBZ than Tenshinhan, who has long periods of hermit-like absence, doesn't automatically make Krillin the strongest.
Agree with you, I adore Tenshinhan for struggling and keeping up with his training, while other guys stopped doing it. He was also quite evil and sadistic before becoming a good guy, similarly to Piccolo and Vegeta. I can totally see similarities between all of them. I personally also see Tenshinhan as the strongest human, considering that he has the strongest technique - Shin Kikoho, and never stopped training, yet for some reasons Toriyama thinks that Krillin is the strongest one... I dunno, just doesn't make sense to me. And Krillin being the first true friend of Goku (while he even wasn't to be fair, Goku met Bulma, Yamcha, Oolong and Roshi far before he ever met Krillin), and I personally don't see bonding between Krillin and Goku to be that great past Namek saga. Not that it matters anyway, because you don't become the strongest person, simpy because of being main character's best friend. Because with this logic Bulma should be the strongest one. Tenshinhan has repeatedly shown, that he always trains, despite being majorly outclassed, that he is able to develop his technique (Kikoho) from not being able to wound Nappa to be able to hold off Cell (!), the being not only much stronger than him, but stronger than both of Androids, who are much stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta (prior ROSAT) and Super Saiyan Goku (also prior ROSAT) and Piccolo (after fusing with Kami), with the name of technique being Shin Kikoho, now this was admirable. Krillin has shown nothing even close to that even by Buu saga.
Yeah, and it's not just sheer power as an Earthling (in fact, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha and Chaozu are all freakish prodigies for having reached the level of power they did for an Earthling, taking into account the natural limits humans have in terms of Ki), it's the entire attitude he has. He's the only one with the courage and attitude to take on Cell, Super Buu and even Beerus, despite knowing he has since long before become obsolete as a fighter in terms of sheer power. There are NUMEROUS absolutely fantastic and delightful events throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs in DBZ, and Tenshinhan's sudden intervention in episode 152 is one of them. He knows he's absolutely no match for Cell in his second form, he's light-years below him, and he even says to himself he's probably going to die, but he courageously almost kills himself to allow #16 and #18 to escape (successfully, otherwise Cell would become perfect 8 episodes before he actually did).
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dbgtFO wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Do you guys think DBSuper is going to run BEYOND the 6th Universe arc?
Yeah, I'm kinda expecting the next logical step to be a struggle, that threatens all universes or something(maybe that could be in the next movie?)[/quote]
No doubt further movies will be made after DBSuper ends (or even WHILE it runs), but I was specifically referring to more arcs within DBSuper itself as an isolated TV series. Of course there'll be more Movies, Specials and TV series after DBSuper ends, regardless of how well it does or what critics it gets.
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Half of an episode dedicated to a showdown between Oolong and Beerus and one minute and a half of berserk Vegeta vs Beerus (although Vegeta did lanch a few powerful punches on him, it looked more powerful than the rage + power display in BoG).
It appears they're keeping the ritual exactly as in BoG, Videl is clearly seen among the group of the ones performing the ritual, so it's pretty obvious Pan has been already conceived as well and is inside her, just like in BoG.
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Regardless of the - FINALLY - revealing of just how they were going to go around the ritual to achieve Super Saiya-jin God (exactly the same as in BoG), this is why you can't even begin to compare DBSuper to the later stages of DB and the entirety of the arcs throughout DBZ in terms of seriousness, and why you can't really deem Beerus a full-fledged evil genocidal villain: you wouldn't see early Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu having a showdown with f******* Oolong, would you?
Goku turning his head slowly upon completing his transformation into Super Saiya-jin God looked pretty badass, gotta say.
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Lord Beerus wrote:
Best way to sum up the episode is: Absurdly High Stakes Game.
That said, I felt the Rock-paper-scissors game between Beerus and Oolong dragged out a bit too long. I will admit I laughed quite a bit when Beerus selected Oolong and everyone backed away from Oolong, leaving the fate of the world up to him. The battle between SS2J Vegeta and Beerus is hands-down the best battle so far in Super, but that's not saying much. I loved that track that played when Beerus was about to destroy the world, but conversely, I hated the track that was chosen for when Goku arrived to stop Beerus from destroying the world. The Pilaf Gang appearing the way they did seemed so out of place, as well.
Overall though, a decent episode. But if any episode felt like in dragged the most in Super, it was this one.
Absolutely agree on the Vegeta vs Beerus battle being the best fighting sequence we've seen so far in DBSuper, even if it lasted just about a minute and a half. Definitely surpassed BoG's version of it. The sheer sound of Vegeta's insanely powerful punches on Beerus were absolutely badass. Goddamn it, they could have stretched the Vegeta vs Beerus sequence a little bit longer. Why spend half an episode with Oolong instead of giving Vegeta's now (in)famous rage-triggered "mutation" some more fighting time?
The ones who back from Oolong when Beerus picks him include Gohan. Yeah, he's being depicted as a nerdy little coward despite being the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him, going from being one of the most powerful warriors in the Universe to a useless, tertiary character. It's "official" now.
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ShaneisMC wrote:
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
With Pan being born now, I guess they are officially writing EoZ out of the story. I wonder if they'll do anything with Uub, I'd like to see him again.
Wasnt it stated that "some time had passed" an that the series does not begin 6 months after Buu an that was just a mistake in promotion basically?
All we know and have known for quite a while (ever since the series started, in fact) is that these events take place at least 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu, but they don't specify how much time has passed since then. It could be months, or it could be years. If they do choose to go down the road of retconning the last 3 episodes of DBZ and "wipe out" that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub I'd be more than pleased, as it has never particularly appealed to me (far from it, I've always seen it as a hasty ending to DBZ, due to the obvious and understandable fact that Toriyama was pretty tired of the pressure of having to constantly and consistently having to come with stories, characters and events with the same fantastic quality incessantly for over a decade without any interruptions (hence his lack of involvement in GT and the resulting disaster it amounted to, among other reasons).
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Zombie wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Ajay wrote:
That music as Goku showed up was utterly dreadful. I'm also starting to get sick of Luffy-face Goku.
This was also said earlier and I agree. It was first used, when Gotenks appeared in the previous episode and it's really not fitting at all for Goku's arrival.
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
With Pan being born now, I guess they are officially writing EoZ out of the story. I wonder if they'll do anything with Uub, I'd like to see him again.
They have yet to say, when exactly this takes place. With Pan being born, the logical assumption is that it's indeed ~4 years after Buu, rather than the 6 months claimed by unreliable promotional material.
We'll know for sure if they mention Tarble.
If they do, it'll be along the same exact lines as seen in BoG: Bulma asking Vegeta if he hasn't kept up with his brother, and Vegeta simply replying he's in a faraway planet. That's IF they do at all. They keep changing and adding some small stuff to DBSuper's version of the events when compared to BoG, but I've been noticing they've also gotten rid of a few sentences uttered by characters in the movie, especially in the last two or three episodes.
If I really, really had to bet, I'd say they won't mention Tarble at all, which doesn't necessarily render the 2008 Special "non-existent" or "non-canon" in any way, as there's really nothing there, until further notice, that directly contradicts the events being depicted in DBSuper so far. Tarble was hastily introduced in his Special as a hastily-conceived "excuse" to complete the story, I believe they see him as lacking the potential to become an interesting character in terms of background, unlike properly developed and introduced characters like Beerus and Whis.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
Whether Super runs beyond the Uni 6 saga completely depends on how successful it is. If its pace is as bad as the crap so far, expect that to be the end.
We might get more movies though.
I disagree, Dragonball as a franchise will never simply "end", its potential is virtually limitless. Even if they screwed up big time with DBSuper, which I personally think they aren't, despite what could be called minor shortcomings here and there, and if it ran for a shorter time than initially intended, we'll get at least about 50 episodes (I estimate that the Beerus arc will be done in 12/14 episodes, and so will the Freeza arc, with two or three smoother episodes in-between, placing the start of the 6th Universe arc at around episode 28/30, and from then on we can only speculate on how long it will run, but since it'll be the first really new stuff in terms of characters, events and villains, unlike the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in the form of arcs within DBSuper, I assume it's not only going to be the most serious arc, it's also going to be the longer. It would take a disaster at some point in DBSuper to not reach AT LEAST 50 episodes, but I'm expecting much more than that (simply because, for the reasons stated before, I'm expecting the 6th Universe arc to last much longer than the first two arcs within DBSuper, and far longer than 20 or even 25 episodes, but I could be totally wrong on that, we'll just have to wait for official info or for the actual episodes as they come out).
Even if DBSuper came down to a complete disaster (it would have worse effects than GT, since it's a full-fledged series 18 years after the last one ended, while GT was made in a rush right after DBZ ended, Toriyama wasn't even involved, it was made for commercial purposes more than anything and lacked proper planning, storyline and character backgrounds and development, which DBSuper would have no excuse for if it made these same mistakes), all it would take for Dragonball to completely and fully recover would be a new well-planned, fantastic Movie or Special like BoG to revive the franchise and the fans' interest in it and hype for it, eventually, sooner or later, generating a new full-fledged TV series and/or a set of new and canon Movies or Specials to serve as a continuation to DBZ and DBSuper in terms of storyline/timeline. It has happened in the past, and not just in Dragonball, and not just in anime altogether. The worst that can happen to Dragonball is not to simply end, it's actually to have its quality drop significantly or dramatically after Toriyama passes away or becomes too old to come up with stories in his creative process.
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irreality wrote:
Saiyan007 wrote:
Do you not understand the huge gap between vegito and Goku in the first place?
I do… You seem not to? Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Goku tells us nothing of where Vegito falls in that scale, since Vegito is *so much* stronger.
Saiyan007 wrote:
A pat on the shoulder is all goku needed to tell that Vegito stood no chance against beerus.
The way pretty much everyone develops the ability to sense (and measure) a warrior's Ki and their own enables them to make a rough estimate of how much of a gap there is between two or more fighters. Judging from how quickly and especially easily Beerus KO'd him after avoiding all of his Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2 and especially Super Saiya-jin 3 attempts at him, Goku can tell - because he remembers the power "he" had when he was Vegitto along with Vegeta against Super Buu - that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (and it would have to be through the Potara method, as that's the only canon way the two fuse, both of dance-created Gogeta's apparances in Movie 12 and in GT are non-canon) would be enough to fight Beerus, but it's not an absolutely precise calculation (he does say "probably not even a fusion with Vegeta would work on him", he doesn't say "DEFINITELY not even a fusion with Vegeta would work on him".
irreality wrote:
Basically we know:
Beerus> >> Goku
Beerus >>> Vegeta > Goku
Vegito >> Goku
Beerus >? Vegito
That is all. There is no other information to draw more conclusions.
Based on the not-so-in-depth paragraph I've written above, there should be no question mark when comparing Beerus to Vegitto; Beerus IS stronger than Vegitto, at least it's very likely he is. As for the other comparisons of the Ki of the most powerful warriors in the Universe, introduced throughout the Majin Buu arc and in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper (counting only canon events and stages), it's pretty obvious that Vegitto is the strongest warrior there is in the entirety of DBZ, and going beyond DBZ, second only to the Beerus + Whis duo, while if we stick to DBZ only, he's far above even the strongest versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
What WOULD be interesting to discuss, much more than these comparisons, is just how Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta would compare to Vegitto, since all of those four are still below Beerus and Whis, but there really is no way to tell if they're actually stronger than Vegitto. We could argue one way or another, but it would all be speculation, we can't even calculate anything, we can only estimate and theorize.
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Zombie wrote:
In reality SSJ3 or even SSJ2 Vegetto don't exist. Goku was having a SSJ Vegetto in mind only.
Well that's my take.
Bullza wrote:
It's possible that he was referring to that as there's never been a SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegito but I see no reason why that character couldn't exist.
It seems odd that he'd say that fusion wouldn't work and not be referring to the full extent of Vegito's abilities. Either he was taking SSJ3 Vegito into account or Super Vegito was the limit, the former seems more likely to me.
I've actually discussed this either in this or in another thread a few days ago, but in my view the fusion technique produces such otherwordly strange results that it, just for example's sake, allows Vegitto to surpass any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form, without transforming into ANY Super Saiya-jin stage. I've also made the point that Vegitto is so perfectly put together as a warrior, combining two martial arts and Ki manipulation Saiya-jin experts who have mastered SSJ2 completely, while one of them achieved even SSJ3, that the degree to which his power increases exponentially while transforming into each Super Saiya-jin stage is inferior to the power boost any other, "regular" Saiya-jin gets; basically, and to summarize, my theory is that Super Saiya-jin Vegitto isn't THAT much stronger than base Vegitto, and Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto wouldn't be THAT much stronger than Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (the same applying to a potential Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto when compared to Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto). That's one of the theories that would make sense in order to explain why Goku says that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (and all he can remember is Potara-created Vegitto against Super Buu, dance-created Gogeta isn't even canon, as he only appears in Movie 12 and GT) would work on Beerus (because Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto, or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto, wouldn't skyrocket Vegitto's power level to the same degrees as it would in the case of a regular, non-fused Saiya-jin).
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Zombie wrote:
In reality SSJ3 or even SSJ2 Vegetto don't exist. Goku was having a SSJ Vegetto in mind only.
Well that's my take.
Bullza wrote:
It's possible that he was referring to that as there's never been a SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegito but I see no reason why that character couldn't exist.
It seems odd that he'd say that fusion wouldn't work and not be referring to the full extent of Vegito's abilities. Either he was taking SSJ3 Vegito into account or Super Vegito was the limit, the former seems more likely to me.
I've actually discussed this either in this or in another thread a few days ago, but in my view the fusion technique produces such otherwordly strange results that it, just for example's sake, allows Vegitto to surpass any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form, without transforming into ANY Super Saiya-jin stage. I've also made the point that Vegitto is so perfectly put together as a warrior, combining two martial arts and Ki manipulation Saiya-jin experts who have mastered SSJ2 completely, while one of them achieved even SSJ3, that the degree to which his power increases exponentially while transforming into each Super Saiya-jin stage is inferior to the power boost any other, "regular" Saiya-jin gets; basically, and to summarize, my theory is that Super Saiya-jin Vegitto isn't THAT much stronger than base Vegitto, and Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto wouldn't be THAT much stronger than Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (the same applying to a potential Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto when compared to Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto). That's one of the theories that would make sense in order to explain why Goku says that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (and all he can remember is Potara-created Vegitto against Super Buu, dance-created Gogeta isn't even canon, as he only appears in Movie 12 and GT) would work on Beerus (because Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto, or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto, wouldn't skyrocket Vegitto's power level to the same degrees as it would in the case of a regular, non-fused Saiya-jin).
Sora Saiyan wrote:
I see SSJ3 Vegetto falling just below SSJ God, unless Goku says something as a SSJG that will change my mind.
We know for a fact (not really a fact, but judging by Goku's estimates after fighting Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet) that Vegitto, regardless of the stage he fights in, is below the Beerus + Whis duo, but we really have no way to tell just how he stands when compared to Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as all of these four are also below Beerus and Whis. We can only speculate, but if I had to bet I'd say that both Goku and Vegeta (and, consequently, Golden Freeza) in their respective SSJGSSJ stages are above Vegitto at the latter's very strongest.
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FuriusMarius wrote:
In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.
1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks
U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.
Where exactly do they say beyond any doubt that Ultimate Gohan is stronger ("far superior", as you put it) than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've always put them on par with each other. And where exactly are you getting it from that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've also always put him below both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin
If you count the latest Movies and DBSuper, then Whis is the very strongest warrrior there is, followed by Beerus, and then (presumably) Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (on par with each other), Golden Freeza (at times above the previous two, in terms of sheer power) and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. The only warrior from the Majin Buu arc who has a chance to come even close to these warriors is obviously Vegitto, there's a huge gap between him and everyone else, including the second-strongest warrior (which is why Beerus KO's everyone at the party, including Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, fat Majin Buu, and Goku at Kaiou-sama's so effortlessly, they are worlds apart).
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
SSJG Goku vs Beerus will surpass episode 5 in terrible quality. Mark my words.
Episode 9 might not look super great, but I'm hoping 10, which will pretty much being Goku VS Beerus for the whole episode, will look better.
Episode 9 very well may not have any of God Goku vs. Beerus in it. Episode titles seem to describe events from the last ~2 minutes of the show. Seeing how Episode 9 is "Super Saiyan God is Born", it's a safe bet that Goku will end up magenta just in time for the credits to roll.
Yeah, just like episode 7 referred to Vegeta's "mutation" at its title and the episode is cut exactly as he finishes the power boost thing. The pace at which events are being retold when compared to BoG makes it pretty obvious that it will take the entirety of episode 9 for them to undergo the entire Super Saiya-jin God ritual (at first failing due to lacking one Saiya-jin, and then proceeding with the ritual properly by adding Videl, and thus already conceived-Pan), by the end of which we'll get Goku turning his face to the camera in that badass manner upon completing his transformation into Super Saiya-jin God. Then episode 10 will be probably, and hopefully, entirely dedicated to the actual fight, and it could "spill" to episode 11, which makes our previous estimates that the Beerus arc, as in, the entire retelling of the full events of BoG from beginning to end, will take about 12 episodes (episode 12 will probably revolve around everyone pondering on the fight they just had, at its aftermath - Goku, Vegeta and the others on Earth, Beerus in his own planet with Whis, after these two leave Earth and after Whis politely asks Goku if he would like to become the next Hakaishin after Beerus dies, and POTENTIALLY - and this would be fantastic - after Whis proceeds to ask Goku and Vegeta if they'd like to train under him, or the other way around, thus making the link to the Fukkatsu no F and its series' version in the form of the upcoming Freeza arc).
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sintzu wrote:
This was definitely an upgrade over his fight in the movie which means he'll get an even longer and better fight with Freeza.
MCDaveG wrote:
Everyone is useless so far, Vegeta shined a little bit, but Goku is the star of the show (just like GT).
A little bit ? he did more then what Goku did before getting ssjg and in the 2nd arc he defeats golden Freeza who's the main villain of the arc but in Gt he didn't even get to lay a hand on a main villain let alone defeat one.
Forget about the main villains he didn't even get to fight any of the side ones so how exactly is this like Gt ?
The fight WAS an improvement when compared to what we saw in BoG; in the movie's version of events, Vegeta merely lands a few punches on Beerus, sending him flying away, and then fires a massive giant Ki blast at him, while in yesterday's episode the sheer sound of Vegeta's numerous punches makes it pretty badass, and - understandably - we got more Vegeta vs Beerus fighting time, but they could STILL stretch it out a bit, or even much further, instead of dedicating half an episode to Beerus vs f****** Oolong. This is why you can't take DBSuper as seriously as DBZ, and why Beerus could never be deemed a full-fledged serious, dramatic genocidal evil villain; you wouldn't expect to see Piccolo Daimao, early days-Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu having a showdown with Oolong, would you?
Vegeta is much more of a (co-)protagonist in DBSuper than he was in GT. Although he did overcome Gohan in GT by achieving Super Saiya-jin 4, just like he'll do in DBSuper by achieving Super Saiya-jin God, at first, then incorporating the abilities and power of SSJG in his base form - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then achieving/developing Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin along with Goku, they're clearly for Vegeta being one of the three or four main characters in the TV series, matching his level of power to his level of protagonism accordingly (I mean, he'll basically skip the degrees of power from any fighter introduced in the Majin Buu arc and go directly from his previous strongest stage, Super Saiya-jin 2, all the way to one of the most powerful warriors there are in the entire Universe, close to Beerus and Whis (surpassing/skipping Ultimate Gohan, all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, arguably Vegitto and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku in the process). Gohan, on the other hand, is very deliberately being given the opposite treatment, going from one of the strongest warriors there ever was to a completely obsolete warrior, a nerdy little cowardly weakling who skips training and loses all of his previously acquired fighting instincts, a guy who isn't even sure if he can go Super Saiya-jin anymore.
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Theophrastus wrote:
I would really hope that there will be at least a couple of episodes in-between the end of the Battle of Gods arc and the start of the Resurrection F arc to explain how the status quo in that movie actually came about.
I mean, Vegeta obtaining Super Saiyan God, Goku and Vegeta training with Whis, and them both figuring out the whole "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" thing could all probably be individual episodes in themselves.
Exactly, those are precisely the two events which happened off-screen somewhere in-between BoG and Fukaktsu no F that I've mentioned more than once that I'd like to see on-screen in DBSuper. Taking two or even more episodes to do so, dedicating them, at least partially, to explain where, why and how Vegeta turned Super Saiya-jin God himself, after Goku does, and Goku's and Vegeta's decision to go and train with Whis (at the latter's request or otherwise) would be fantastic, I really hope it happens.
It would be much better to get the likely and anticipated two or three episodes in-between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc to be dedicated to these previously off-screen events instead of smoother episodes, like the first two in the series.
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FuriusMarius wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
FuriusMarius wrote:
In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.
1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks
U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.
Where exactly do they say beyond any doubt that Ultimate Gohan is stronger ("far superior", as you put it) than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've always put them on par with each other. And where exactly are you getting it from that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've also always put him below both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin
If you count the latest Movies and DBSuper, then Whis is the very strongest warrrior there is, followed by Beerus, and then (presumably) Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (on par with each other), Golden Freeza (at times above the previous two, in terms of sheer power) and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. The only warrior from the Majin Buu arc who has a chance to come even close to these warriors is obviously Vegitto, there's a huge gap between him and everyone else, including the second-strongest warrior (which is why Beerus KO's everyone at the party, including Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, fat Majin Buu, and Goku at Kaiou-sama's so effortlessly, they are worlds apart).
First of all, Super Boo is superior than Kid Boo and Goku ssj3 is equal to kid Boo more or less.
Gokuh is very very surprise when Gohan become Saiko No Senshi like he never felt this power before.
When Boo Gotenks power down to Boo Piccolo, Goku says that now Gohan can easly beat him.
When Vegeta ask the wishes to Porunga to bring back to life everybody, Goku first arrives to the conclusion that is cause the Gohan or Gotenks can easly beat Kid Boo.
All this is in the Manga.
Hmm, Kid Buu is above the first version of Super Buu (that is, the one without anyone absorbed) and arguably the Super Buu version we get to see for a few minutes only (with Piccolo dominant).
I know Kid Buu is roughly equal to Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, I never said he wasn't. However, if I had to choose one to be slightly above the other, I'd choose Kid Buu.
Goku can be surprised all he wants, being surprised at your son's enormous power doesn't mean he's stronger than you. At that point, Goku most likely believes he's by far the strongest good guy there is in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, which would explain why he was surprised to see someone else become about as powerful as he was.
Yeah, Goku says that Super Buu with Piccolo dominant can be defeated by Ultimate Gohan or Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks, but it doesn't mean he can't defeat him himself too as a Super Saiya-jin 3 (Goku goes throughout most of the entire Majin Buu arc deliberately intending the living warriors on Earth to be the one to defeat this particular menace, instead of him, an example of which is when he fights fat Majin Buu and refrains from finishing him off despite having the potential to do so and end the entire arc right then and there, simply because he wants Gohan, Vegeta and the others to be the ones to get rid of the enemy this time around).
Yeah, when Vegeta comes up with his plan and Goku understands what it is he believes the strategy involves having Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight Kid Buu, but there's nothing there that specifies Goku thinks one would them would be able to beat Kid Buu single-handedly, he's probably thinking Vegeta's plan involves having everybody - including precisely Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks - team up with each other, and/or with himself, to, all of them together, defeat Kid Buu.
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Holy shit, I get away from the computer for one afternoon and there are two pages worth of reply to the debate we were having. There's just too much interesting stuff all of you have written in terms of power levels both to my estimates and to others', so I'm not going to reply to any of them at the moment, I'll do it probably tomorrow, there really is a lot to be thought about and written.
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MajinVegetaSSj6 wrote:
hA, Vegeta used the Galick Gun against Beerus, right?
The way he puts his arms and hands he definitely looked like he was using Gallic Gun, which took us back to early days-Vegeta, and I stroke me immediately upon seeing it while the episode originally ran, but whatever it was, the way it enlarges on release and impact and the effect it has is pretty much exactly the one seen in BoG's version of events (even the color of the attack when it's released, in fact).
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Birusu16 wrote:
Like I said before, DB isn't supposed to be realistic. SSJ2 Vegeta becoming stronger than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan is unrealistic to yet that's what we have. Such a boost for Vegeta may not be liked or realistic, but it's what we have, especially since Goku believed not even fusion could stand up to a Beerus who used less power on him than on Vegeta.
Pretty much. Vegeta and Goku have both been deemed fighting geniuses on numerous occasions throughout DBZ (by each other and by others), but both of them lack Gohan's inherent "ability" to go berserk when pushed to his emotional limits, giving him not only a massive power boost in his numerous "tantrums" in the first half of the series but also resulting in a temporary psychotic episode (as in, loss of control over one's actions, to the point of not even remembering having performed them), the Cell Games Super Saiya-jin 2 trigger being the only instance in which he seems to be able to maintain some degree of control over his emotional stability while he thrashes the Cell Juniors and Cell himself (perhaps due to having achieved a natural, age-related emotional maturity).
The word "mutation" present in the title of episode 7 is pretty much the perfect term to describe what Vegeta undergoes in episodes 7 and 8 of DBSuper, instead of an actual, physical "transformation", since what he experiences is a freakish, temporary occurrence which allows him, very temporarily, to go beyond the power limits "imposed" to/by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage. Going beyond the power limits of a particular Super Saiya-jin stage is so rare an occurrence in anyone except Gohan that it's the entire reason why Vegeta's power boost in BoG and DBSuper after Beerus hits Bulma has been over-debated to death. Weird stuff does happen here and there, not only to Gohan. The fusion technique is another example of presenting and producing entirely freakish results in the ultimately fused warrior (such as Vegitto being far stronger than any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form). Going back to Vegeta, despite losing his shit to the point of, for a few seconds, losing his pupils, he doesn't tap into any hidden power as a result, simply because he doesn't have it the way Gohan does (and Vegeta has numerous instances of emotional instability and going berserk with anger and/or frustration, without it resulting in any power boost whatsoever - actually, his pathological pride gets in the way and prevents him from using his trademark intelligence and strategic fighting mind, whenever he comes across an adversary who surpasses him after he - once again - proclaims himself to have surpassed Kakarotto and become the strongest warrior in the Universe.
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Bullza wrote:
Wait why exactly are there people saying Vegeta is stronger than Vegito?
Going back a few pages ago, the only way that claim could be made is if we consider Vegeta's level of power when/after he himself achieves the Super Saiya-jin God stage at some point in-between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc (as it happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events), then incorporates the abilities and power of the SSJG stage in his base form - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then achieves/develops the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage. Other than that, the claim itself is obviously ridiculous, and as far as I read nobody made it. Even surpassing Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku temporarily, he's still worlds apart from Vegitto (let alone Beerus).
Vegitto is below the Beerus + Whis duo, that's pretty much a given, but we can really only speculate on how Vegitto's level of power compares to Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as all of these four are also still below Beerus and Whis, but if I had to bet I'd say Vegitto is below all of them, regardless of the stage he fights in (base, Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2 or even potentially Super Saiya-jin 3).
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Quite honestly and frankly, coming up with endless calculations to try to figure out how powerful each character is when compared to others, and to what degree(s), is a next-to-futile exercise at this point. Of course we can debate whether a particular fighter is stronger than another, especially when it comes to/involves stages and levels of power achieved in the recent movies (BoG and Fukkatsu no F) and in DBSuper, but in most cases (not all, though) we just lack any specific information that makes it clear or beyond any reasonable doubt that a particular warrior is a given times stronger, or a certain percentage stronger than another. If we go by numbers instead of simply generating lists or rankings, it starts getting overly complicated and everybody disagrees with everybody. Numbers were a good and mathematic way to measure a particular warriors' power level when the Scouters were trendy during the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, not anymore.
I could generate a new list, or repeat my past ones (both recent and dating back to a few weeks or even months ago), but I think my points have been made.
I understand that this thread is specifically dedicated to discuss precisely this subject, but the most important thing at this point is to have it pretty clear that nobody surpasses the Beerus + Whis duo, that absolutely nobody (not Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, not Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, not rage-filled temporarily psychotic Vegeta, not Ultimate Gohan, not fat Majin Buu, not any version of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, not Gotenks, not even Vegitto, if he was still around) come even close to the degree of power those two possess, they're just leagues and worlds apart. Only Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta come close to the level of power of Beerus and Whis, and this automatically puts them in an entirely different level with which the likes of secondary or tertiary (although still extremely powerful and previous main) characters just can't and won't be able to keep up (Gohan, Piccolo, #18, fat Majin Buu, Trunks, Goten, etc.).
It could be argued Goku, Beerus and Vegeta are the three main characters in DBSuper, they're very deliberately pushing Gohan to the sidelines and replacing him slowly but surely by Vegeta both in terms of (co-)protagonism and power, matching one to the other accordingly. Everybody (Piccolo, #18, even Tenshinhan) still gets their fighting time both in the Beerus arc and in the Freeza arc, just like they did in BoG's and Fukkatsu no F's movies' version of events, but not against the main villain, at least not in a lengthy way.
They've very deliberately decided that only Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jins with the typical constant need to train and fight new and stronger adversaries to overcome their limits and those of others, will be able to keep up with the recently introduced Beerus, Whis and whoever turns out to be the main adversary/villain in the 6th Universe arc.
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Doctor. wrote:
Gohan comes immediately to mind, when he comes to Earth fight Super Boo. The manga was clear cut and straight to the point: Gohan took on the mantle as the savior of Earth and wouldn't fool around like his child self, hence the "I'll kill you" speech that is so famous, it's the culmination of Gohan's character, he defeated Boo in less than a chapter and was ready to kill him before Boo outsmarted him. The anime takes that, adds a bunch of unnecessary padding that gives Gohan actions and lines that make him out to be a cocky asshole who didn't learn anything against Cell. There's a reason why most people keep saying Gohan was fooling around against Super Boo, when in the manga this wasn't the case at all.
Well, Gohan is identified as having a next-to-immeasurable or next-to-infinite potential as early as the first episodes of DBZ by Goku, Piccolo, Raditz and Vegeta, and he goes on to display the "ability" to tap into it by being pushed to his emotional limits and having temporary psychotic episodes, resulting in his numerous "tantrums" in the first half of DBZ, throughout the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs; in the Jinzouningen arc he's a secondary character as far as fighting goes, but ultimately, by the Cell arc, Goku develops the strategy of combining the fact that his power skyrockets exponentially when he goes berserk with his developed power (first of all, turning him Super Saiya-jin and then skipping the in-between stages to go all the way to Super Saiya-jin Full Power at the Cell Games, close to Goku, slightly below Cell and slightly above Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks) - Goku calculated that one of Gohan's "tantrums" with that degree of power would provide him with enough strength to overcome Cell, recognizing in Gohan the ability to be the only one to have the potential to save the world at the Cell Games. It's also the first and only instance of Gohan being pushed to his emotional limits (thus having an explosion of anger) and still retaining some degree of control over his actions while thrashing Cell Juniors and Cell himself. After that, and especially as an adult in the Majin Buu arc, one could argue that the fact that he reached a natural, age-related maturity makes him less likely to have uncontrollable rage "tantrums".
They clearly intended the torch to be passed from Goku to Gohan at the Cell Games, by having Gohan become the franchise's main hero and be the one to kill Cell. They even had Goku die to serve that specific purpose, which is perhaps best illustrated by looking at the opening of the Majin Buu arc. However, this proved to be an ultimately failed move, since they once again had Goku be the one to finish off the menace in the Majin Buu arc by having him be one to kill Kid Buu. The last moment Gohan had to really shine was when he showed up to thrash Super Buu, but even after becoming one of the strongest and most powerful warriors there was in the entire Universe, on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, he was outclassed once again in a matter of just 2 episodes, even allowing Gotenks to fight in his place instead of finishing Super Buu quickly, as he could very easily have done, thus providing the catalyst (the entire Super Buu strategy, in fact) for his defeat at the hands of a stronger version of Super Buu soon after that.
In DBSuper, and indeed in everything they've been throwing our way recently after 11 years of inactivity (2008 Special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F), they clearly and very deliberately decided to totally replace him with Vegeta in terms of (co-)protagonism, matching Vegeta's power to his degree of protagonism accordingly, by having him quickly overcome Ultimate Gohan at some point in-between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc within DBSuper (or between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events), alongside everyone who was stronger than him in the Majin Buu arc in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage (all versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Gotenks, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Vegitto), by being the one to keep up with Goku, as a pure Saiya-jin, and undergo Super Saiya-jin God, first of all, then incorporating the abilities and power of the SSJG stage - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then achieving/developing Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, following Goku's same exact steps in terms of power/transformation progression just a little bit after he does, but ultimately fully catching up with him, instead of what happens throughout the entirety of DBZ, where Goku is always "one step ahead of him" and always manages to "always overcome him when he thought he had caught up with Kakarotto". I honestly believe there won't be any further Super Saiya-jin stages developed or achieved after SSJGSSJ in DBSuper, even in the 6th Universe arc or in any other potential event taking place after that, we've had as much as THREE new different SSJ stages in a matter of two years, that should be enough; in order to beat whoever turns out to be the main antagonist/villain in the 6th Universe arc, either they team up as SSJGSSJ, or they fuse into Potara-created Vegitto or dance-created Gogeta, or they fight alongside Beerus and perhaps even Whis.
Doctor. wrote:
And Super is following the movies. DBZ's pacing was bad not only because they were giving the manga some breathing room, but also because they were milking the hell out of it, just like Super is doing. And Super isn't retelling stories in a half-assed manner, it's doing everything Battle of Gods couldn't do because of its time constraints, starting with Beerus' characterization. Episode 8 was the only real bad episode, outside of 5 for obvious reasons, so I'm not sure why you're making such a big fuss out of it, there are plenty of episodes like it in DBZ lol. It didn't have episodes that were mostly unrelated to the previous? You sure? How about that time we cut away to frog-Ginyu taking over Bulma while Goku and Freeza are fighting? Like I said above, I'd have to rewatch the entire series and I could give you countless examples, but it's so terrible that I don't want to do that.
Pretty much. The reason why DBZ goes as far as 291 episodes, with about 50% of it being filler material present in out-of-nowhere scenes put in-between serious fights and events, and even entire arcs (Garlic Jr.), is because it followed the manga and the episodes were being produced and released almost as soon as the manga version was, so in order to give Toriyama the time he needed to, first of all, develop the manga and come up with the stories, characters and events so that it could provide a base for the anime episodes to be produced, they were forced to throw in stuff in the anime that was just made up (hastily or not) by artists other than Toriyama, otherwise it would just be impossible (it's logically impossible to have manga-based anime produced and released before the manga itself is complete). That's why we get the "infamous" 5 minutes of Namek's destruction stretching out between episodes 97 to 106 (10, in total), although this COULD, in theory, easily be attributed to a simple miscalculation by Freeza, and besides it's just the most famous example to illustrate just how much filler there is throughout the entirety of the arcs in DBZ.
Kai partially fixed that, by getting rid of the filler material, putting it - in its first "round", from 2009 to 2011 - at 98 episodes, where as DBZ's version of the same exact events took 194 episodes to be completed (about half, in fact, which just strengthens my point that about 50% of the material in DBZ was filler).
Doctor. wrote:
The animation made news because it's a brand new series in 18 years and the animation is, as anyone who knows anything about Toei animation would expect, sub-par and downright awful in episode 5. The only reason DBZ's animation isn't so trashed on is because DBZ is over. There are plenty, God, literally hundreds of segments where it looks just as bad, if not worse, all thanks to Mr. Uchiyama and Mr. Ebisawa.
Exactly. If there was a fast way to convey and spread information back in the 80's and 90's, while DB and DBZ were originally running, fans would go berserk at the quality of about half of the episodes of DBZ, and as a result it would probably never go beyond the Freeza arc as a TV series. Back a few weeks ago, in the aftermath of episode's 5 "scandal", we thoroughly discussed the animation in DB and DBZ and I specified that the way it worked was by having as much as over 10 different animations team working on the episodes on an alternating, rotating basis, allocating an episode to a particular team every 5 or 6 episodes; for example, the two animation teams you're referring two are the ones behind, in one case, and just for example (not gonna give entire lists like I did before), episodes 1, 5, 22, 45, 53, 55 79, 83, 85, 128, 145, 186, 228 (simply animated but good for fights in terms of movement), and in the other one (the one which gave us really AWFUL animation in DBZ, and my least favorite one), episodes 6, 27, 33, 46, 51, 66, 71, 75, 80, 84, 94, 98, 104, 126, 131, 139, 144, 148, etc. My personal favorite animation teams in DBZ are the one behind, for example, episodes 21, 28 and 64 (extremely detailed traces and extremely well-designed), the one behind episodes 126, 143, 162 or 168, the one behind episodes 142, 152, 159 and 164 (extremely detailed) and especially - my favorite one - the one behind, for example, episodes 4, 25, 31, 36, 47, 54, 68, 81, 87, 104, 130, 150, 160, 166, 187 and 268.
The fact that the different animation teams are allocated an entire episode each in DBZ on a rotating basis results in the fact we see huge differences in the quality of the drawing and animation from one episode to the next.
For one, episode 5's animation wasn't THAT bad after you watch with a clear mind after all the fuss about it is now over. It was the fact that everyone was going frame-by-frame that it looked THAT awful; I'm not saying the animation/fighting choreography was decent, it wasn't, but the fact that fans started generating petitions and the fact that the quality of the animation made it to the national news (!) is just exaggerating it too much and blowing things out of proportion.
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Doctor. wrote:
FutureGohanSSJ2 wrote:
The problem wasn't killing an enemy, it was taking fights seriously from the start and not treating everything like a test for himself. It didn't "force" a flaw onto him, that flaw existed in-series. That also ignores the plain and simple fact that Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans. As such they value their ability and skill as a singular warrior above all else. So of course they'd hate the idea of having to work together, especially as a good chunk of their relationship is competitive toward one another.
His overconfidence was already a problem that was addressed with his training with Mr. Popo. Later in the Namek arc, Goku scolds Burter and Jeice for letting their guards down and being so cocky. In Battle of Gods, he's rightfully cocky because he's one of the strongest in the universe but he quickly humbles himself the moment he loses. But now suddenly he's cocky again? This is character regression, the series has plenty of character regression but that doesn't mean we should tolerate it.
It doesn't matter if they're Saiyans. The movie starts off with their training and says that together they could be a force to be reckoned with. We, as the audience, then expect to see a threat where Goku and Vegeta can only win if they put aside their differences and learn to work together, or at least agree to work together in the future if the time ever demands for it. This doesn't happen. The movie opens up character flaws and then never bothers to address them. There is zero character development in this movie. There are only forced flaws that are somewhat quickly resolved to give off the illusion of character development.
I tend to lean towards the position that there was room for character development in Fukkatsu no F which went partially (or mostly) wasted, but we're talking about a theatrical feature, which all of its typical time restraints, even for a longer one like the recent two. Toriyama said in the build-up for Fukkatsu no F that this time around he wanted a lot more fighting time than in BoG, and within just one Movie or Special you can't have both (extremely in-depth character development and a lot of fighting time as well) at the same time. You need a TV series of episodes for that, and that's exactly the purpose DBSuper is, or should be, serving in the first (previously estimated by many of us) 24/28 episodes it will take to retell both BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs within the series.
On a completely personal note, being a hardcore Vegeta fan, watching Vegeta beat the shit out of Freeza with his bare hands without the help of anyone, face-to-face, in a direct and badass manner, gave me as much satisfaction as watching Bardock finally beat, if not Freeza himself, then one of his ancestors, because of the deep way the viewer, especially a Vegeta fan, sympathizes with, shares and really feels for the humiliation and hopelessness experienced by Vegeta at the hands of Freeza in episodes 85 and 86 over two decades ago (in real-word time, I mean). That alone, that minute alone, made it more than worth enough to sit through the entire movie. But it also goes far beyond that, it features the final, full-fledged return of the arguably the most charismatic and dramatic villain in the whole franchise after numerous cameos in the Cell and Majin Buu arcs in DBZ and in Movies and Specials. It developed upon the potential of Beerus and Whis as a character, especially by having the latter show off his previously unseen martial arts moves while training Goku and Vegeta, going as far as dominating them miserably despite their absolutely massive power and proceeding to point out their respective flaws. It features the achievement/development of a new, further Super Saiya-jin stage beyond Super Saiya-jin God, and it serves the purpose (which DBSuper will complete) of having Vegeta finally not only fully catching up with Goku, but also surpassing everyone who was above him throughout the Majin Buu arc and become the main (co-)protagonist and hero in the franchise, and the main character alongside Goku and, arguably, Beerus. It also shows us and expands upon the connection between Beerus and Freeza, which is a fantastic thing because there are lots of previously identified similarities between them.
All of this will obviously be expanded upon in a much more detailed way in DBSuper, for obvious reasons, and we'll get to see events which happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, namely Vegeta achieving Super Saiya-jin God himself, Freeza training, Goku's and Vegeta's decision to train under Whis, and just why and how both of them decided and/or managed to achieve/develop a further stage by undergoing Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. All of these should be, and I'm certain they will be, given the proper attention and screen time in DBSuper.
It could be argued whether or not deciding to have a respectful chunk of the first full-fledged TV series in 18 years dedicated to retell events which we've already been presented to, with some minor changes and additions here and there, was the right way to go, but if Toriyama just reasoned "since we're going for an entire series, I might as well present the viewers with the actual way I wanted the entire sequence of events I wrote for BoG and Fukkatsu no F the way I originally intended, which I couldn't do in the movies because I had to cut a lot of stuff", then the fans who are still unhappy or disappointed with the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F can still be appeased by the fact that at least it's just the first portion of the series, and we could look at both the Beerus an the Freeza arcs as the build-up to the real, entirely new, previously unseen introduction of a (set of) new character(s), stage(s) and event(s).
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I'm surprise people like the Black Star Dragon Ball arc more then the BOG arc. The first saga in GT is really boring and dull in my opinion. Everything in that saga was very forgettable and has nothing memorable about it. Not to mention all of the villains where dull and forgettable expect for Ledgic in the Black Star Dragon Ball arc. Not to mention the humor is funnier in the BOG arc then it was in the first saga of GT in my opinion. Beerus is a better main villain then Dolltaki was in my opinion.
Except you can't really compare whatever they come up with in DBSuper with GT. GT was made right after DBZ ended, Toriyama wasn't involved, etc., the flaws have been pointed out to death by me and others over the years. For starters, DBSuper is being done as a full-fledged TV series 18 years after the last one ended, and its basically the culmination of the process of revitalization of the Dragonball franchise in terms of new Movies, Specials and TV series after 11 years of inactivity. Toriyama's head is now fresh and, quite in fact, the story in which he will have/has had more involvement in is precisely the 6th Universe arc. Other than the mere two facts that they go outside the planet and look for a new set of Dragon Balls is the only thing linking GT's first episodes to the 6th Universe arc in DBSuper, there's absolutely no reason to connect one with each other and one should under no circumstances or from any perspective try and compare the two things.
Not only will the 6th Universe arc probably be the best, longest (this one is probably a given) arc in DBSuper, it will most likely feature - it would be a waste of potential if it doesn't, considering we're going into an entire new Universe, and just by exploring one it gave us everything we had in DB and DBZ (series, Movies, Specials) in the 80's and 90's - at least a full-fledged evil genocidal maniacal evil villain, increasing the degree of the seriousness, drama and desperation in the series by a notch, it will also probably function the same way the Majin Buu arc did (and in fact, all other arcs throughout DBZ) in terms of how the antagonist is ultimately defeated and peace is returned to the Universe(s), by either having Goku and Vegeta team up as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, fusing with each other (Potara-created Vegitto or dance-created Gogeta, a far less likely scenario) or have both of them be aided by Beerus and perhaps even Whis.
And I wouldn't call Beerus a villain. It's true he's being portrayed in a much darker light when compared to his laid-backness and somewhat comic aspects in BoG, but in the end he'll turn up to become part of the team of good guys, working and fighting alongside them just other previous warriors who were at first presented as ruthless and evil villains throughout DB and DBZ (Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta). Beerus can't be deemed "good" or "evil", he's been tasked with a "mission" and merely sees to it that it's carried out, although, due to his sheer nature and short temper, he ends up destroying a little more at his whims than he was supposed to. After his fight with Super Saiya-jin God Goku he'll probably gain a lot more respect towards the team, just like Piccolo and Vegeta gradually did after interacting with them, and he'll refrain from humiliating them, threatening/coming close to destroying the Earth and KO'ing them mercilessly like he did in episodes 7 and 8, in DBSuper, and in BoG. By the Freeza arc his relationship with Goku and Vegeta, along with the rest of the team, to some degree, will have evolved a little bit, and recognizing (and/ or having Whis telling him about) their potential if they team up and, in fact, on their own, he'll view them in an entire different light when compared to his first meeting with each of them. Beerus probably lacks the same concept of "good" and "evil" as other regular, emotional beings do, he doesn't have an agenda to rule Earth (Piccolo Daimao and his son/reincarnation), attain immortality and rule the Universe (early days-Vegeta and Freeza), kill Goku and annihilate Earth (Cell) or simply destroy everyone and everything in sight (Kid Buu). He's far from being a full-fledged villain, he could better be described at this particular point as an antagonist (although, if one hadn't seen BoG, or it if never even happened, one would be thinking by now he's much closer to a complete sadistic evil ruthless maniac than he actually is).
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