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Doctor. wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
150 THOUSAND times gravity or 150G?
Because the latter is what would make more sense.
Honestly I haven't rewatched the episode yet, I'd be able to tell you if I listened to what he says again. But it should be pointed out that as early as the Jinzouningen arc, he's shown training in the gravity room under a pressure of 300 and then 400, so 150 should be nothing for him by now (hence the possibility of 150.000). I'll just need to watch the episode again and I'll let you know, if nobody else does it before me.
Yea, but he was struggling with 150x in the past episode. What makes sense is that he'd be able to conquer 150G easily after a few hours/days of training, not suddenly jumping to handling 150,000G without a sweat.
Yeah, but I've edited my last reply. Please check it and watch the episode. Depending on what he says, we should be able to understand if it's 150 or 150.000.
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Sandubadear wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
150 THOUSAND times gravity or 150G?
Because the latter is what would make more sense.
Honestly I haven't rewatched the episode yet, I'd be able to tell you if I listened to what he says again. But it should be pointed out that as early as the Jinzouningen arc, he's shown training in the gravity room under a pressure of 300 and then 400, so 150 should be nothing for him by now (hence the possibility of 150.000). I'll just need to watch the episode again and I'll let you know, if nobody else does it before me.
"Sen" is 1.000, "Yaku" is 100, "gojiu" is 50, but then "man" is 10.000. If he says "Ichi yaku gojiu" then it's 150, and the right way to say 150.000 would be - I think - "Jiugo man" (literally, fifteen ten-thousands).
He says "hyaku go ju bai *something* ryoku". I asked because in one crappy fansub I found, its translated as "the battle power of 150,000 is now useless..."
"bai" means "multiplication" or "multiplicated by", and "hyaku go jiu" means 150. Then I guess it should be something along the lines of training under 150G (which is indeed useless to him at this stage). It has nothing to do with battle powers, though, don't let those fansubs fool you, there's plenty of mistakes and badly-translated lines to them, sometimes changing the entire meaning of the sentence altogether to the point where it doesn't even make sense.
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Ok, just rewatched the episode solely for the purpose of understanding what Vegeta said, regardless of the ridiculous fansubs. He basically says "the gravity pull of 150x is no longer fitting for training for someone at my stage".
He does say "yaku go jiu go-bai jyuroku mo" etc., etc., ("the 150x gravity", or "gravity multiplied by 150"). If it were 150.000, it would be "jiu go man", literally "fifteen ten-thousands", as "man" means 10.000 ("man" = 10.000, "sen" = 1.000, "yaku" = 100", "jiu" = 10).
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Sandubadear wrote:
btw the sponsor-y thing at the end of the episode is cute. Is that Maron's voice?
That's Goku's voice actor (or rather, actress) doing Goten's voice.
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Doctor., check the previous page, I managed to clear the doubts surrounding what Vegeta says in the gravity room.
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[quote="MaGyunia"]Collecting all of my thoughts/reviews/positions on this particular episode which I wrote separately in different, small posts right after the episode ended airing:
- Far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but we'll get compensated for that in the next episode, which, up until yesterday, I thought wouldn't be almost entirely dedicated to the fight between Goku and Beerus (and it will).
- Difference between BoG and DBSuper: Pilaf not automatically and immediately making a connection with Goku from their early DB adventures upon seeing Goten, which was to be expected after what we saw in BoG.
- The thick outlining looks "tasty", and we'll almost certainly get a number of different animation teams for DBSuper's episodes (although nowhere near the number of different animations teams for DB and DBZ, which was over 10 and worked in the episodes on a very easily identifiable alternate basis, if you understand what I mean by "alternate").
- It had been pointed out by almost all of us that the thick outlining we saw in some shots of the third episode's preview reminded us immediately and automatically of the animation of Movie 12, particularly the somewhat comic fight between Goten + Trunks against Hitler and Mr. Satan vs the zombies, but I wouldn't want an entire series of Dragonball animated that way. Just too unreal.
- We're done with the process of (re)introducing the characters in the first smooth family-oriented episodes, and that was a clever move to start off the series with (while at the same time presenting us with chilling/mysterious appearances by Beerus and Whis, just at the right pace), but now, at episode 5, it's time to start the serious fighting and actually (re)watch Goku get utterly dominated by Beerus. The minute the fight took in BoG was nothing to complain about, but it's definitely possible to extend the fight just the right way while at the same time displaying Beerus' enormous edge over Goku by having him barely react to ANY of Goku's attacks, and finally rendering him unconscious just as easily as he did in the movie.
- We had already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's training in the gravity room before (Jinzouningen arc, episode 124, Bulma), but this time it's an employee "Vegeta-sama" (not even "-san", she actually adds "-sama" to his name (!), probably out of a combination between respect and especially FEAR) Vegeta couldn't care less about, instead of someone he can and does occasionally cut some slack (namely, and especially, his immediate human family).
- Interesting to note just how much of a difference there is between the leverage Bulma has over Vegeta when compared to the (non-existant) leverage most other living beings do. The employee is treated rudely, as would be expectectable by Vegeta, especially in a setting in which she dares to interrupt his training, but as soon as Bulma scolds him, no matter how utterly important his training sessions are to him, he just can't say no to her. This is a perfect way to show just how the once proud, previously utterly evil and ruthless Saiya-jin prince restraints his natural violent/anti-social tendencies when it comes to dealing with the concept of a family and living beings who actually mean something to him deep down, perhaps even better than having him lose it over her being slapped or over Cell killing Mirai no Trunks in the late stage of the Cell Games, which is just too expectable and predictable.
One thing I've never mentioned regarding the content of DBSuper so far is how little time Piccolo - as one of my two favorite character from the entire Dragonball Universe - has been getting. I understand there's not a lot of time or reason for him to show up other than in serious/dramatic circumstances which demand both power and wisdom/intelligence, but he's been getting entirely an awful lot less time than I'd like it. It's the very first time I mentioned this ever in here, regarding DBSuper, but I'll guess we'll somewhat be also compensated for it when Beerus encounters the fighters on Earth and Piccolo, among the others, will have his shot at Beerus. I like the concept of having him rendered unconscious with two pressure-point touches to his body, but nevermind that, I want him to land more than a single kick (although I want his attacks, just like that of almost all others, to get blocked just as easily and effortlessly as they were in BoG).
Not going to go AGAIN into the whole "retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make Uub non-canon, etc.". It's been debated to death. Pretty much every single theory as been presented in the last days and weeks on that subject. We'll just have to wait and see how exactly they handle it, just like we'll have to wait to see exactly at what time and in what circumstances Champa (and his attendant) will be introduced, and just what his relationship to Beerus is, although also in this department pretty much every possible theory has already been postulated recently in the last few days.[/quote]
Small thought I had forgotten in this full review:
- In BoG, Kaiou-sama goes to great lengths to hide anything that has to do with Beerus-sama from Goku while talking to Kibitoshin, but in the episode not only does it NOT do any effort to conceal it from Goku, he's actually the one who right off the bat tells him about the name and who/what he is without displaying any concerns over the possibility of Goku getting excited about it and a subsequent and consequent fight that could trigger Beerus' anger. Major change between BoG and DBSuper in this case.
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MaGyunia wrote:
Collecting all of my thoughts/reviews/positions on this particular episode which I wrote separately in different, small posts right after the episode ended airing:
- Far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but we'll get compensated for that in the next episode, which, up until yesterday, I thought wouldn't be almost entirely dedicated to the fight between Goku and Beerus (and it will).
- Difference between BoG and DBSuper: Pilaf not automatically and immediately making a connection with Goku from their early DB adventures upon seeing Goten, which was to be expected after what we saw in BoG.
- The thick outlining looks "tasty", and we'll almost certainly get a number of different animation teams for DBSuper's episodes (although nowhere near the number of different animations teams for DB and DBZ, which was over 10 and worked in the episodes on a very easily identifiable alternate basis, if you understand what I mean by "alternate").
- It had been pointed out by almost all of us that the thick outlining we saw in some shots of the third episode's preview reminded us immediately and automatically of the animation of Movie 12, particularly the somewhat comic fight between Goten + Trunks against Hitler and Mr. Satan vs the zombies, but I wouldn't want an entire series of Dragonball animated that way. Just too unreal.
- We're done with the process of (re)introducing the characters in the first smooth family-oriented episodes, and that was a clever move to start off the series with (while at the same time presenting us with chilling/mysterious appearances by Beerus and Whis, just at the right pace), but now, at episode 5, it's time to start the serious fighting and actually (re)watch Goku get utterly dominated by Beerus. The minute the fight took in BoG was nothing to complain about, but it's definitely possible to extend the fight just the right way while at the same time displaying Beerus' enormous edge over Goku by having him barely react to ANY of Goku's attacks, and finally rendering him unconscious just as easily as he did in the movie.
- We had already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's training in the gravity room before (Jinzouningen arc, episode 124, Bulma), but this time it's an employee "Vegeta-sama" (not even "-san", she actually adds "-sama" to his name (!), probably out of a combination between respect and especially FEAR) Vegeta couldn't care less about, instead of someone he can and does occasionally cut some slack (namely, and especially, his immediate human family).
- Interesting to note just how much of a difference there is between the leverage Bulma has over Vegeta when compared to the (non-existant) leverage most other living beings do. The employee is treated rudely, as would be expectectable by Vegeta, especially in a setting in which she dares to interrupt his training, but as soon as Bulma scolds him, no matter how utterly important his training sessions are to him, he just can't say no to her. This is a perfect way to show just how the once proud, previously utterly evil and ruthless Saiya-jin prince restraints his natural violent/anti-social tendencies when it comes to dealing with the concept of a family and living beings who actually mean something to him deep down, perhaps even better than having him lose it over her being slapped or over Cell killing Mirai no Trunks in the late stage of the Cell Games, which is just too expectable and predictable.
One thing I've never mentioned regarding the content of DBSuper so far is how little time Piccolo - as one of my two favorite character from the entire Dragonball Universe - has been getting. I understand there's not a lot of time or reason for him to show up other than in serious/dramatic circumstances which demand both power and wisdom/intelligence, but he's been getting entirely an awful lot less time than I'd like it. It's the very first time I mentioned this ever in here, regarding DBSuper, but I'll guess we'll somewhat be also compensated for it when Beerus encounters the fighters on Earth and Piccolo, among the others, will have his shot at Beerus. I like the concept of having him rendered unconscious with two pressure-point touches to his body, but nevermind that, I want him to land more than a single kick (although I want his attacks, just like that of almost all others, to get blocked just as easily and effortlessly as they were in BoG).
Not going to go AGAIN into the whole "retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make Uub non-canon, etc.". It's been debated to death. Pretty much every single theory as been presented in the last days and weeks on that subject. We'll just have to wait and see how exactly they handle it, just like we'll have to wait to see exactly at what time and in what circumstances Champa (and his attendant) will be introduced, and just what his relationship to Beerus is, although also in this department pretty much every possible theory has already been postulated recently in the last few days.
Small thought I had forgotten in this full review:
- In BoG, Kaiou-sama goes to great lengths to hide anything that has to do with Beerus-sama from Goku while talking to Kibitoshin, but in the episode not only does it NOT do any effort to conceal it from Goku, he's actually the one who right off the bat tells him about the name and who/what he is without displaying any concerns over the possibility of Goku getting excited about it and a subsequent and consequent fight that could trigger Beerus' anger. Major change between BoG and DBSuper in this case.
Doctor. wrote:
I missed it, yea thanks. It was nothing too extreme as I thought, and just some random fuck up by a translation, now sure how they'd mess up something so seemingly simple.
They never really put a lot of effort into the quality of their fansubs. They understand bits and pieces of what's being said and then make up whatever they believe they're saying, most of the times coming up with ridiculously wrong meanings, which just demonstrates their lack of in-depth knowledge of what's going on and Dragonball in general.
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Chuquita wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Muffin Man wrote:
I'll be extremely baffled if they ignore the ending of Z with Super, simply because of the fact that they DIDN'T ignore EoZ just this year when they were finishing up DB Kai. Why would they include those last two episodes in Kai only to pretend they don't exist in the follow-up series that they were planning to air immediately after? It would make no sense.
Kai was produced way before they thought of doing super which was in late 2012/early 2013.
This is also why I think it's plausible that they could ignore EoZ. There's no rule saying they have to tie Super to Kai, especially now that Kai's pretty much retired and was conceived ahead of all of the recent plot developments from BOG and F.
Kai having shown the introduction of Uub at its very end should bear no relevance to whether the last 3 episodes of DBZ will be changed/made "non-canon" or not, even if the event was shown just a few months ago. If they do retcon that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub it will be for entirely different reasons, it's got nothing to do with Kai. Kai was a nice concept of presenting DBZ in its entirety without all the filler material it's... filled with, in a period of years (2009 to 2011 and then 2014 to 2015) when we/they were in a pretty strong process of revitalization of Dragonball, beginning in 2008 with Tarble's special (and then Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F), which all eventually led to a full-fledged series (regardless of the events it depicts in its first arcs), the first one we got in 18 years.
Personally, I'd like them to "erase" Uub from "canonness" as far as the series' timeline goes, and I bet that if Toriyama could go back in time, and if he had the strength to put forth his visions back in 1996 like he does now (he was at that time pretty tired and consumed after so many years of creative process of coming up with ideas for characters, events, etc., for DB and DBZ, and wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible, in whatever way he thought first, after the titanic battle(s) in the Majin Buu arc and the final defeat of Kid Buu just 3 episodes before that), he would most definitely have chosen another road. Like I always say, whatever happens during the Beerus and Freeza arcs within DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, 10 years later, if they don't touch it, and since they've made BoG and Fukkatsu no F basically "non-canon" only 2 years and a few months after they came out, respectively, I don't see a problem in touching and changing the last 3 episodes of DBZ, regardless of how long ago they was made. Not all of DBZ is "untouchable". Uub has never appealed to me and I regard that ending as a hastily-made way to end the series in a hopeful/cheerful light as soon as possible, and I even grant the concept, in its roots, some potential, but it failed to deliver in those episodes (let alone in GT, whose quality is laughable for a variety of reasons).
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I honestly think that the most likely scenario is that DBSuper and all of its arcs (Beerus, Freeza, 6th Universe) and the events depicted in all of them will be placed within the 10 year gap between the defeat of Kid Buu and the last 3 episodes of DBZ. It's not about what I'd like to happen, it's about what's most likely to occur given the circumstances. As a result of that, the last Tenkaichi Budokai of DBZ and Uub's introduction will remain unchanged and canon. The original "mistake" (that's my personal opinion, I know it's not shared by many DBZ fans) was made back in 1996, not now.
However, if we do get another series and/or canon movies after DBSuper, they'll eventually choose to pick up on the timing AFTER that Tenkaichi Budokai and Goku's leaving off with Uub to train him, and they'll basically partially or totally try to "redo" GT.
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I'd be extremely disappointed if at some point in the future, a few years from now, they did a series even partially focusing on Goku's training of Uub, or revolving around Uub at all. And I think that Uub, although remaining canon, will never be a major character, I bet Toriyama almost forgot he invented him.
We need to understand that the concept of Uub was introduced weeks after the defeat of Kid Buu. He's intrinsically linked to Kid Buu, and the entire titanic Majin Buu arc was far too much present in everyone's minds at the moment of Uub's introduction and the last 3 episodes of DBZ. That's not the case anymore, that was 19 years ago. The events of the Majin Buu saga, although the last ones in DBZ, are just as "ancient" as all others depicted in the original series in the 80's and 90's.
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Fansubs are never the way to go, both for legal reasons and for purposes of proper translation and understanding by the fans.
Even if you're not like me and didn't go for nearly a decade watching every single episode of DBZ (and most of the later stages of DB) in Japanese almost on a daily basis for hundreds of times, and relating what I'm hearing to the subtitles, ending up finding myself having learned enough Japanese to the point where I don't really need subtitles to pretty much understand every single line in an episode, you should wait for proper subtitles while in the meantime trying to understand as much as you can, both alone and/or with the help of other fans.
The ridiculous quality of most hastily-done fansubs gave us an example in the aftermath of this last episode, where they mistranslated "150x gravity", or "gravity multiplied by 150x" for "battle power of 150" (check a few pages before this one in this thread, I had to rewatch the episode solely for the purpose of clearing out the doubts generated by that ridiculous mistranslation. That's just the latest example, we could literally pick a thousand other ones.
They never really put a lot of effort into the quality of their subs. They understand bits and pieces of what's being said and then make up whatever they believe they're saying, most of the times coming up with ridiculously wrong meanings (sometimes, or most of the times, even in incorrect English, further undermining their credibility), which just demonstrates their lack of in-depth knowledge of what's going on and Dragonball in general.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I still doubt any characters from DBZ Movies 1-13 will show off like Broli, Coola and Tapion. They are from movies that are over 20 years old. Most kids and casual TV watchers most likely have no idea who are they. I think it would be rather confusing if Broli just show up out of nowhere in Super.
I fully agree. The 13 DBZ movies were made for commercial purposes, depicting "what-if" scenarios and exploring and expanding upon a bit on non-canon characters and settings with some potential to them, but, even taking into account the length of ANY movie, the story could never be too good. The CONCEPT of SOME events and characters, though, was worth exploring in its core. Some failed miserably, others were excellent (Brolly's Movie 8 is just one of the good ones, personally my favorite ones besides that one are Movie 3, Movie 5 and Movie 12). It's rather obvious that they'll do more movies and/or an entire full-fledged series years from now, after DBSuper, regardless of the timing it will be set in, but the scenario of getting ANY character from the 13 Movies (re)introduced back into future movies/series seems just too far-fetched to me. Even the characters introduced in the "second round" of Dragonball after 11 years of inactivity, like Tarble, who was considered to be canon along with BoG and Fukkatsu no F up until a few weeks/months ago, are most likely NOT going to make an appearance in the future, regardless of popular demand, or lack thereof.
In DBSuper, it's becoming more and more entirely obvious that after the first 2/3 smooth, family-oriented episodes dedicated to (re)introduce most of the main/supporting characters who belong to the history of DB and DBZ, we'll move on to the Beerus arc, which will be a retelling of the events of BoG in pretty much almost the exact same circumstances, although at a different timing, in no more than 10-12 episodes, and then we'll get one or two lighter episodes without any serious "menace", pretty much along the lines of the in-between episodes we got throughout DBZ between major arcs, then we'll move on to the Freeza arc, which should itself be covered also in no more than 10-12 episodes, so, according to the estimates we already did a few days ago, we should be moving on the third major arc (6th Universe) by episode 23/25. It would be purely speculative and an exercise of futility to, at this point, even try to estimate how many episodes the 6th Universe arc will last and where and when it will end in the series' timeline, and there's even the possibility of yet another follow-up arc to that. We just don't know what the future of DBSuper in the long run (and I mean, 2016, maybe even 2017) will be, nor can we make any rough estimates of the total number of episodes the series will consist of, because we simply lack any information to base any theory on.
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Hugo Boss wrote:
Did Vegeta say a battle power of 150,000 was useless in the DBS Episode #4 or it was a sub error? I don't speak Japanese, but I could say he was instead talking about the 150G training.
He said "yaku go jiu go-bai jyuroku mo" etc., etc., ("the 150x gravity", or "gravity multiplied by 150"). If it were 150.000, it would be "jiu go man", literally "fifteen ten-thousands", as "man" means 10.000 ("man" = 10.000, "sen" = 1.000, "yaku" = 100", "jiu" = 10). He's referring to the 150G gravity pull, basically stating that it's no longer fitting for training someone at his stage, as he can barely feel it at this point. Again, no attention should be paid to fansubs, especially hastily-made ones. Their creators lack the knowledge to understand what they're talking about and result is disastrous.
There are plenty of mistakes in fansubs and badly-translated lines to them, sometimes changing the entire meaning of a particular sentence altogether, to the point where it doesn't even make sense and/or confuses fans who really can't make out any Japanese.
The process of fansubbing basically consists of understand bits and pieces of what's being said and then making up whatever they believe they're saying, most of the times coming up with ridiculously wrong meanings (sometimes, or most of the times, even in incorrect English, further undermining their credibility), which just demonstrates their lack of in-depth knowledge of what's going on and Dragonball in general.
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Well, yeah, there's absolutely no comparison between the technological circumstances back in the 80's and 90's and 2015. I've been a fan since 1993/1994, when DB and DBZ were first dubbed in Spain (it only came to my country, Portugal, in 1996, and grown adults were skipping university classes to watch the episodes). Up until the mid-2000s, it was impossible to find original Japanese videos of DBZ with at least medium-quality, I had to hang on to a list of Japanese clips with absolutely awful quality for a few years. It was only after FUNImation ended their sequence of releases of DBZ DVDs with dual audio that it was possible to watch the entire series in high quality, and something which just years before was pretty much unreachable even in medium-quality became readily available to pretty much everyone around the world, even non-DBZ fans.
I don't really care how much money the creators of Dragonball make, I'm sure they make enough, but yeah, I can kind of sympathize with the lack of readiness and availability/accessibility of DBSuper. I mean, it's Dragonball, for f***'s sake, and it's the first series to see the light of day in 18 years. I myself am not personally too bothered with the lack of subs, due to the reasons I stated in my previous post in this thread, but I can sympathize with those who just can't follow the episodes' plot and what lines the characters are saying in Japanese at all.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
They didn't explain how the Pilaf gang became children, did they? I'm not sure why they cut out that from the movie.
No, they didn't. To be fair though, there hasn't yet been a scene equivalent to the one where it was revealed in the film. We may still get Pilaf complaining about being children and explaining about their previous wish if/when they start to scour the boat for the Dragon Balls. We may also get the gang reacting to Goten's hair and face once they find the prizes as well, but it won't really have any of the impact the film version did by this point since they've already been interacting.
The only acceptable way to make the connection between the reemergence of Pilaf and the first half of DB was to have him, Shu and Mai react in sheer terror immediately upon seeing Goten. There are stuff that could and should be changed, or at least expanded upon in DBSuper when compared to BoG, but there's also stuff that shouldn't be changed, and that's one of them.
My main complaint about the episode was that there was just too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang. Unlike most of you, Pilaf and whatever revolves around him has never appealed to me a lot, which is why I don't manifest my opinions about him the way I do about others. In fact, the only thing I'm grateful that he exists for is that he retrieved the Denshi Jar and released Piccolo Daimao, without which we would never have had Piccolo in DB and DBZ. :clap:
I pretty much don't give it too much thought about the large/overwhelming majority of characters who don't play a major role in terms of fighting.
Ah, one last thing about Pilaf: he's voiced by the same VA as Raditz (who also did Garlic Jr.'s voice in the Garlic Jr. arc in DBZ), who is just basically one of my favorite VA in the entirety of Dragonball. He has a deep, violent voice, fitting Raditz's character perfectly.
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Jerguy wrote:
I enjoyed the episode. It seems a lot of people are really impatient for the story to rush through but I look forward to a decent retelling of BoG and hopefully RoF as well. And of course whatever is to come with the different universes, etc.
It's amazing that we are able to watch this show within hours of the original broadcast, but have some patience with the story. I started watching DB in 1988, and had to wait every week for episodes to just watch in raw japanese. I was an Air Force brat and my father was stationed in Okinawa at the time and I lived for watching DB every week when it aired. I anticipate filler shows, and slow build to future things. I remember vividly watching nearly 2 years for the Namek saga to complete, between the sheer amount of episodes to the story, the Freeza fight in itself which was like 30+ episodes, and the occasional preemption due to a baseball game(which really sucked and resulted in waiting 2 weeks for episodes on occasion!) When I moved back to the states in 1991, it was 5 years until I was finally able to rediscover DB from some of the original sites, including the first incarnation of kanzenshuu that VegettoEX made(VegettoEX.com?) and the old #db IRC channel.
I do wish Toei would do a simulcast with subtitled releases, but I'm happy with what we can get. We are able for the first time to watch a new DB series together with the world. I'm happy to be able to watch in japanese rather than the english dubs which are nearly unwatchable for me being a purist. And not just because of the voices, but the Faulconer music was terrible in comparison to the original BGM in my opinion.
Quick question about episode 3, which I would've posted sooner but only recently got forum approval(thanks by the way!) Did Tenshinhan's get a new VA? He only had like 1 or 2 lines, but it didn't sound like the original.
Thanks!
Nice to find another purist AND someone else who's utterly disgusted at the first attempts by FUNImation to adapt DBZ (and that was indeed more of an adaptation than a mere dub, they "criminally" changed the original background music, they changed the plot, they made up stupid stuff changing the whole way we viewed the characters, they invented lines when there was supposed to be silence, etc., it was like watching an entirely different show apart from the animation being the same).
I "only" found DB in 1993/94, when it first started airing in Spain. When it came to Portugal in 1996 and the whole Dragonball-fever swept the country, I had already seen, memorized and recorded on VHS tapes the entire show with the Spanish dub, which I'm very fond of, as one of my strongest/most beautiful memories from childhood. I watched the episodes literally hundreds of times, back-to-back. There was one instance in 1993/1994 when I didn't have time to record a particular episode in the Freeza saga and I was frustrated to the point of crying over it.
I also deeply value the fact that we're, for the first time, able to watch an entire full-fledged new Dragonball series, with one episode every week(end) at the same time all around the world. You can actually watch it not hours after it airs, but in fact AS it airs. In the 80's and 90's this concept was entirely out of the question.
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DoomieDoomie911 wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now?
The same reason that there were movies during Z's run.
It's also hard to tell which version over rides which. DB Super has many differences from the BoG movie. Do we treat the BoG/RoF movies as alternate timelines like the other movies?
I think it's pretty much up to each individual as to what they consider canon. I don't think it will matter much in the long run.
In my view, DBSuper, as a full-fledged series, and particularly the Beerus and Freeza arcs within it, "overrides" (as you put it) both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and, as a result of that, they should be viewed as entirely "non-canon" (I mean, either an event, character, movie or special is canon or it isn't, there's no in-between), much in the same way all of DB's 4 Movies, DBZ's 13 Movies (except, from a certain perspective, Movie 9) and the entirety of GT (all of them depicting "what-if" scenarios and exploring some characters and events with some potential to them, and also having been made for obvious commercial purposes).
It's only a matter of personal position, but I want there to be just one and only main timeline, (except the ones additional, future ones generated during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs), for purposes of simplification and exactness, to which events can be eventually added and taken at any point.
There's no established logic to be followed here by anyone and Toei and Toriyama did come up with a few surprising takes very recently, with their decisions to make movies/specials, announcing them as canon, and then "decanonizing" them soon after with a sudden, surprising announcement of a new series 19 years (!) after the last one happened. I'm just theorizing here, but it could be that their intention all along with the process of revitalization of Dragonball with the 2008 special, Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F was all intended to function as a preparation of the entire Dragonball-fandom to the final real meat: a new series (eventually, but quite soon), but I think the theory collapses after you look at the sequence of events back in 2012/2013, as Toriyama expressly announced BoG, at the time of its conception/marketing/release as a canon continuation of the events in DBZ after the defeat of Kid Buu (and the 2008 special was made canon as well, by implication, as Tarble is mentioned in BoG itself by Bulma).
It may be hard to accept that the events depicted in BoG and Fukkatsu no F are no longer canon, as in, they never actually "happened" (no matter how close the retelling of the events depicted in them in DBSuper will be to the way they were presented in the movies themselves), especially after we all went through the process of accepting the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of DBZ, after 11 years of Dragonball inactivity; having to reverse the entire thing, especially so soon after each movie was released (2 years and a few months, respectively) was both weird AND difficult, but I'm well over that by now. One of the things that we over-discussed in here before the series debuted was the need (or if it was the right way to do it or not) for telling almost the exact same events in DBSuper when compared to BoG, in pretty much the exact same circumstances with some changes and natural additions here and there, although at a different timing. With this in mind, and if there's any logic to their decisions, we can only postulate that they initially intended BoG to be THE real canon continuation of DBZ's Majin Buu arc before they even thought of another series, and after the movie did so well at all levels and they realized just how much potential Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God had, coupled with their decision to go for an entirely new series, mixed/amalgamated everything into one big move: to indeed go further with a full-fledged series, but having the first part(s) of it retelling the events, characters and stages of BoG retold/(re)introduced without the time restraints typical of a movie (even a larger one), which would mean that, if they could back in time, they probably would have chosen NOT to release BoG at all and instead have Beerus, Whis and the rest of the characters and events depicted in the movie introduced for the very first time in the series, since a large chunk of fans is and will continue to be complaining about how disappointing it is to dedicate some 10-12 episodes to retelling events which we've already seen in the movie, with some minor changes and additions here and there, and they must pretty be aware of that degree of disappointment, or at least they're capable of foreseeing it.
It's not the first time I undertake this pretty simple exercise, but until further notice, this is the sequence of canon events in the Dragonball Universe (not counting off-screen events which happened thousands or millions of years ago, referred to throughout DBZ, but only events which we've actually seen on-screen):
1 - Bardock Special
2- DB
3 - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs
4 - (alternate timeline) Trunks Special
5 - DBZ Jinzouningen and Cell arcs
6 - Movie 9 (debatable)
7 - Majin Buu arc
8 - First two/three episodes of DBSuper
9 - DBSuper's Beerus arc
10 - DBSuper's Freeza arc
11 - DBSuper's 6th Universe arc
12 - last 3 episodes of DBZ (we've also been over-debating whether or not they'll retcon that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub both in this thread and in others as well, but at this particular stage they remain canon, as nothing so far indicates otherwise - that shouldn't mean they won't retcon it or completely "erase" those events from the timeline entirely in the rather near future, though)
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sailorspazz wrote:
LuckyCat wrote:
Jerguy wrote:
Quick question about episode 3, which I would've posted sooner but only recently got forum approval(thanks by the way!) Did Tenshinhan's get a new VA? He only had like 1 or 2 lines, but it didn't sound like the original.
Hirotaka Suzuoki is the original actor and was replaced by Mitsuaki Madono when Suzuoki died in 2006.
Mitsuaki Madono played Tenshinhan briefly for some of the video games. The main replacement actor from Dragon Ball Kai onward has been Hikaru Midorikawa (who also played #16 and Paikuhan)
The original is (usually) the best, and this applies to the replacement of Muten Roshi's VA after the first one died in the 90's - he had a lot of charisma to him -, to the replacement of Tenshinhan's VA (the one who did his voice throughout DBZ was fantastic, he had a serious, deep voice fitting Tenshinhan's stoic character perfectly) and, more recently, to the replacement of the VA for Kami (and, implicitly, Piccolo Daimao); regarding this last one, his evil, maniacal, psychotic laughter as Piccolo Daimao in DB in the late 80's, after killing/destroying someone or something, was more than charismatic, it had a severe impact in the deepest recesses of my personality. I've got his Kanji symbol tattooed in my chest; if I go around bare-chested and get stopped by Japanese tourists they'll read "Ma" and either they'll laugh at it or they'll recognize it as Piccolo Daimao's and the Mazoku's symbol.
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irreality wrote:
Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).
I actually once made an entire list of all the 13 Movies describing when each one WOULD fit in the series' timeline, and what events would have to be changed in order to make them possible, and I included both Movie 9 AND Movie 13, but it turned out I did it in a bit of a rush and didn't remember that they had used the Dragon Balls in that movie, which would make it impossible for them to use them again right after that (to erase the memory of Majin Buu from Earthlings) and again in the movie, which, if it had taken place, would have done so a few weeks/months right after the defeat of Kid Buu.
I'll try to get the entire exercise depicting how exactly each one of the 13 Movies COULD have taken place (as in, what circumstances would have to change when compared to the actual, canon ones), though. It was a fun thing to do.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
The only thing that stood out in this episode was the fact that Pilaf did not confuse Goten with Goku. I found that weird. I didn't mind the art; it was pretty good, actually. That said, if they were going to spend so much screen time on Pilaf, they should have provided flashbacks on what he had been up to since DB, including his wish for youth. Might as well go all out with the character.
Not much else to say. It's the sort of episode that you'd tell anyone to skip. Nothing worth seeing here.
Seems like everyone, including me, was observational enough to notice that one of the things they SHOULDN'T have changed when compared to the BoG version of the Beerus events was the fact that Pilaf (along with Mai and Shu) was supposed to automatically and immediately recognize Goku's hairstyle upon laying his eyes on Goten. Yeah, that was more than an unnecessary change, it was just plain silly.
Regarding the art, I find it "tasty", but not for DBZ. It's been pointed out to death that it was used in Movie 12 when Goten + Trunks fight Hitler and Mr. Satan fights the zombies, but that was deliberately to emphasize the comic aspect of those scenes. I wouldn't mind watching hours-long of another thing like that, but I don't want Dragonball drawn/animated that way. It's just too unreal and a little bit childish.
Again, too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but, also again, we'll get compensated for that in episode 5, which will be battle-packed, with a somewhat stretched version of the fight seen in BoG (in the movie, it takes Beerus one minute to KO Goku if you count from Goku's very first charge, and although they'll obviously not dedicate the entirety of the episode to the acquaintance + fight, it's obvious from episode 4's preview that the whole interaction - acquaintance + fight - will last at least for half the episode). Things will finally get serious in the fighting department.
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Doctor. wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
irreality wrote:
Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).
Movie 13 can't fit now since there is no way that Hoi can make his wish to free Tapion out of the box so soon after the last wish was made. It would take months after the last wish was made for the Dragon Ball's to return back to normal.
If Super takes place 4 years after Boo like BoG did, then it can still fit in.
But it doesn't, it takes place 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu. Besides, if Movie 13 happened at all after any stage of DBSuper, why would Vegeta suddenly change back to his Majin Buu arc clothes, which is pretty obvious he only chose for the Tenkaichi Budokai and was stuck with them for the rest of the saga, and why would Goku use his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage? It COULD take place right after Kid Buu's defeat if it hadn't been for the inconsistency with the usage of the Dragon Balls Hellspawn28 and I mentioned.
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Zombie wrote:
You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.
How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.
Doctor. wrote:
If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.
Or it just means that they're changing the timing at which Pan is actually born, thus retconning the last episodes of DBZ, after having already changed the timing at which events take place in BoG.
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I found the exercise I did a few weeks ago on the movies and under which circumstances each one of them would have taken place (and when).
As you can see, I originally didn't include neither Movie 9 nor Movie 13 because at that time I considered them to produce no inconsistencies with the series' timeline at all (hence, it could be said that they "happened").
Here it goes (it's the original thing, I haven't touched any of its shortcomings):
All the others WOULD have "happened" in the following circumstances:
Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.
Movie 2 - It WOULD have happened IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc, since he uses Kaio Ken in the movie.
Movie 3 - IF there had been an additional Saiya-jin to have survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta and later came to Earth to find Kakarotto. It WOULD have taken place IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc before Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu and Piccolo died.
Movie 4 - IF there had been an additional Namek-sei-jin who survived the extreme weather conditions on the planet that led to Piccolo being sent to Earth and IF Goku and the others somehow had managed to either beat Freeza after Piccolo is resurrected and Vegeta dies but before he became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin or had left Namek before that, for some reason.
Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Movie 7 - IF the only two Jinzouningen which actually ever existed had been #19 and Dr. Gero (no #16, no #17, no #18, no Cell), and after either Goku or Vegeta and Piccolo had beaten them. It would have happened right after that.
Movie 8 - IF two additional Saiya-jin had survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and IF one of them WOULD just happen to be the Legendary Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD have happened if Paragas came to Earth during the 10 day-period between Cell's announcement of the Cell Games and the Cell Games themselves, after Goku and Gohan leave the RoSaT, since Gohan is a Super Saiya-jin.
Movie 10 - IF Brolly ever existed and had come to Earth. It WOULD have taken place during the period of time Gohan trains Videl and Goten.
Movie 11 - IF Brolly ever existed. It WOULD have taken place right after the previous movie (and after the Tenkaichi Budokai that led to the Majin Buu arc, but without the arc itself ever happening, as there WOULD have had been a Tenkaichi Budokai which for some reason had a final in which #18 lets Mr. Satan win in exchange for quite a large sum of money).
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)
Both the Bardock special and the Trunks special depict events which happened off-screen in DBZ's storyline (in Trunks' movie case, before he decided to go back in the past to warn Goku and the others about the Jinzouningen, which generated a different timeline - pretty much similar to what happened in Back to the Future 2)
The 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F were up until very recently considered to be follow-up continuations of DBZ's main, one and only timeline, and the 2008 special by itself can still be considered to be canon, as there's nothing there that contradicts what we've been seeing or hearing about in DBSuper, but BoG and Fukkatsu no F have also been basically turned into side-stories which are going to be retold, with the introduction of the same characters and stages but at a different timing and in different circumstances.
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Zombie wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Zombie wrote:
You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.
How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.
Doctor. wrote:
If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.
Or it just means that they're changing the timing at which Pan is actually born, thus retconning the last episodes of DBZ, after having already changed the timing at which events take place in BoG.
I'm not talking about EoB...
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Minus
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Jaco_t ... _Patrolman
I know what that is, thank you. When I included the Bardock Special in the canon list I did so obviously because the fundamental aspects of the events depicted in the special did remain canon, especially Goku being sent to Earth and Bardock's confrontation with Freeza.
You don't need to paste links for Dragonball stuff in that condescending way, I know pretty much everything there is to know about it.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.
Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.
Do you take filler & guidebooks into account? Because if you do, these 2 movies happened. The Garlic Jr. arc means that M1 happened, and according to the official timeline, both Movies 1 & 5 happened.
In fact, the ONLY reason why I didn't include Movie 1 in the "canon" movies is because Krillin is shown to meet Gohan, and when Raditz shows up he's just as surprised that Goku has a son as everyone else at Kame House. Apart from that (minor) detail, it doesn't produce any inconsistencies. I regard the Garlic Jr. arc as canon, with the exception of Garlic Jr. remembering Gohan and Goku from a few years ago when they met in Movie 1 (but if Movie 1 is canon, then the Garlic Jr. arc is definitely canon without any possible debate over it).
Regarding Movie 5, we could argue that Goku did in fact fight Cooler on Earth during the 3 year gap between his return to Earth and the Jinzouningen arc, and the fact that he didn't go Super Saiya-jin right from the start (which he seems to be able to rather comfortably upon meeting Mirai no Trunks) is due to the fact that for some reason he regressed and could only attain the Super Saiya-jin stage when again pushed to his limits in terms of anger, just like Gohan hasn't "mastered" the stage of Super Saiya-jin 2 against Bojack even after having reached it against Cell, as in, he could only attain it if pushed to his limits AGAIN.
We're merely discussing which of the 13 Movies COULD have taken place within the series' timeline without producing any plot holes or inconsistencies, but I'm sure that it was never their preoccupation whether or not they were possible to have happened or not. Toriyama did indeed once say that the movies have to be seen as side-stories, depicting "what-if" scenarios. If you want to call that an "alternate universe" or an "alternate timeline", or whatever it is, it's just a matter of naming. Besides, the issue over "canonness" has produced countless discussions over the years and still to this day no definite, absolute conclusion has been reached, and may never be at any point in the future.
We were just exploring a little bit the area of the Movies and whether or not the events depicted in them could have taken place, and under which circumstances. It's not meant to turn into a serious debate or anything. You're always going to find someone else with a different point of view that contradicts yours.
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Hey,
This might be a little bit strange of a question, but is that really you in your avatar? :mrgreen:
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irreality wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
You could say that... but I don't think people would really feel for a character who's mostly been depicted as nagging and money-hungry (this is aimed at Super more specifically than in general).
Ok, wanting to win prizes at a party where prizes are the main event and hoping your whole family is on your team is not "money hungry". It is having a competitive spirit, which both #18 and Chichi have always displayed. (and to be fair, a great number of characters both male and female in the series). The prizes are meant to be enticing. It is nice to see #18 and Chichi interacting about something that is not about their kids or their husbands.
Other than asking Goku to suppport her family, the rest of her "nagging" in Super was to (rightly) berate Roshi for being an obvious pervert around children, on two different occasions. Roshi is being gross -- someone should nag him, and I don't think it reflects badly on her at all.
Goku promised he would be at the party, he even remembers he should be at the party, and is dithering about just using Instant Transmission to get there. Because he doesn't want Bulma to yell at him. Nobody is calling Bulma a nag, even though she is yelling at both Vegeta and Goku for not being at her party. (Which I think she is justified in doing, but it is much more frivolous a cause).
That's why I say that Gohan is THE perfect example of complete pure-heartedness, not Goku. Goku may not have a sliver of evil in himself, but he disregards his family responsibilities all the time, displays no respect towards others (when they deserve it, beyond their mere "status"), uses Kaiou-sama's "sacred" planet as his personal training grounds, destroying his house numerous times, and leaves his family behind at the first thought just to train a little bit more or training others, whereas Gohan, other than having a 100% purely good "soul", is well-mannered, polite, well-spoken and respectful towards pretty much every living thing, unless you happen to have the power to torture or kill his friends in front of him, in which case he loses it and can't even control himself, at least throughout his childhood/teenage years, reducing the degree of "fault" it is his when it comes to the destruction he causes even to guys who actually deserve it.
Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jin, among all the other race-specific traits we all know about, have a desire to train and get stronger which borders on obsession/mania.
But on the other hand that's exactly the main reason why they keep pushing above their previous limits and keep surpassing both themselves and others, to the point where they overcome more and more new barriers and end up being among the restricted group of the very strongest beings in the entire Universe.
Regarding Chi Chi and Muten Roshi, and analyzing each one separately, and starting with Chi Chi, I guess her behavior since the beginning of DBZ, after having Gohan, can't really be regarded as entirely normal. She pretty much abuses Gohan psychologically and emotionally throughout his childhood whenever she gets the chance and cares more about turning him into a nerd than about his potential to save the Universe from conquest or utter destruction (which, if happened, would provide no place for studying in the first goddamn place). Her entire routine is not getting old now, it's gotten old a long, long time ago. The entire, sole purpose of her existence is to have her infant son locked in a room for days on end. That's not healthy behavior on her part, but luckily Gohan finds it in himself to escape her grasp pretty much whenever he wants to (I mean, for f***'s sake, while he's the sole warrior with the potential to prevent Cell from destroying the entire population of Earth, which he ends up delivering, all she cares is still the fact that he's not studying - that goes beyond being a mere a protective mother, that's just sick, nagging, unreasonable and highly unhealthy).
By the way, she does that to Gohan, but she's never shown doing it to Goten. It's like she deliberately chose "ok, I'm gonna turn this one's life into a complete f***** nightmare and not the second one, just because... well, because I'm pretty sick myself".
I guess the initial concept of having Chi Chi transform into a dedicated housewife from the beginning of DBZ onwards was to show her as the prototype of the "perfect" wife in most cultures around the world (cooking the meals, carrying about her son's intellectual development and health, doing the dishes, cleaning the house, staying home, etc.), which is by itself an outdated concept regarding the whole "equality between man and women" thing.
Muten Roshi's days as a hermit/sage have pretty much become part of history and no longer apply, and I've always regarded his numerous attempts throughout DBZ to use or "blackmail" his students (and others close to them and to him) with the fact that he's a "great sage" or an "old man" to justify his advances on women as utterly demented and unfair. He retains and has always retained all of his wisdom, but he just has since long ceased to use it. He has been obsolete as a fighter even as early as the Piccolo Jr. arc in DB, so what do you expect? All that's left is how utterly perverted he is, half of the times accompanied by Oolong. The routine might be getting old at this point, like that of Chi Chi's constant ultra-housewife and over-the-top-motherhood nagging, which has started to bother me a little bit as early as the Jinzouningen arc (thankfully, she's not around during the entirety of the Freeza saga, so Gohan has freedom to try to help and save the f**** Universe instead of studying like a goddamn nerd - I mean, we're talking about the member of the good guys with the most potential inside of him, if he had half of the Saiya-jin fighting spirit he would be far above both Goku and Vegeta and, who knows?, could even become the strongest, most untouchable single entity who has ever existed in ANY Universe).
But between one and the other, regardless of both of their respective routines having gotten old and obsolete a long time ago, at least Muten Roshi still has the potential to make fans laugh their asses off in certain specific circumstances, such as suddenly bursting out of nowhere into Chi Chi's wife in a completely random fashion making a connection between the money Goku has gotten and the possibility of buying sukebe DVDs. The funny part is not in the mere fact he wants to watch perverted stuff, it's actually the whole randomness of the scene and how sudden and unexpected it was. I also laughed my ass off almost two decades ago when I first saw him suddenly and randomly touching Videl's breasts despite barely knowing her in Kami's lookout, or when he had the balls to actually try a similar move towards #18, who proceeds to turn him upside down, almost destroying the man and his glasses, and also in the 2008 special when at the end everyone has their own seconds of showing off their most well-known techniques and he saves those girls WHILE at the same time touching them.
But, overall, if you're going to stick to the same characters for decades, with just a few gradual additions to the core team as the arcs progress, you're eventually, sooner or later, going to end up with some of their routines getting old. What more did you expect from Chi Chi or Muten Roshi at this point? They can't suddenly change who they are all of a sudden for no good reason. Whatever little screen time they get has to depict them the way they've always known to be and act, even if (they know) it's obsolete to the point of being nagging and even annoying.
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You're cute. I'm not hitting on your or anything, I just, whenever I looked at the picture, found some sort of weird attraction. Must be because you're both a girl AND a Dragonball fan, don't know :D
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SansrivaaL wrote:
Glad to see someone other than me here wants to see Beerus get his ass cat kicked, he thinks way too highly of himself kinda like how Goku is at times but thats been taken care of by a lot of characters kicking his ass.
I can understand why some of you might want this happen, pretty much the way I loved it when Goku got his ass absolutely destroyed by Piccolo Daimao, for example (unlike Freeza during the first half of their fight, before he goes Super Saiya-jiin, but that's only because Freeza was so perfect a villain that he actually made me hate him for all he had done and I regarded Goku as the embodiment of every race and living thing he destroyed, including the Saiya-jin, the Namek-sei-jin and Vegeta).
The strongest Goku always got throughout DB and DBZ, the higher he deep down thought of himself, only to find himself overwhelmed by an entire list of villains (whom he - and Vegeta - eventually surpasses, which is the focal point of Dragonball, in fact).
Vegeta and Piccolo are my favorite characters in the entirety of Dragonball, and I really felt for them after they suffered major defeats (Vegeta crying and being tortured by that f***** Freeza still has me traumatized since childhood, just for example), but it also served the purpose of presenting them with a further challenge to surpass themselves again and again, which they take and are successful in. Vegeta, especially, has thought of himself (and others thought of him) as having become stronger than Goku after major defeats on more than one occasion, but episodes after that he gets his ass kicked yet again, and so on, and so on (thinks he's enough for Kiwi, Dodoria and Zarbon, but gets his ass violently kicked by Zarbon the first time they fight, and then brutally murders him episodes after; thinks he's better than Freeza but gets tortured by him and has Goku reach the Super Saiya-jin stage before him, but three years later he's arguably stronger than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin against #19; thinks he's the best fighter in the Universe but gets utterly dominated by #18, only to further surpass himself by going beyond the first stage of SSJ and crush Cell at this second stage, who is far above #18, and then gets his ass humiliatingly kicked again by Cell episodes later due to his pride/arrogance/stupidity of having let and actually HELPED Cell reach his perfect stage).
Going back to the Vegeta/Freeza relationship, the utter desperation I felt two decades ago SHOULD have been totally compensated by the fact that Vegeta finally got his chance to display his enormous and unbelievable increase in power to Freeza and take care of him personally, taking revenge in 2015 for a traumatic event which happened to him - and to me - in 1991, but he's just far too emotionally indifferent to Freeza throughout the movie. I guess he just went through too much and developed his character and emotions so much that he no longer felt the need to brag about his level of power, even to Freeza.
However... Well, this might a little bit suspicious coming from a cat-lover and an admirer of Beerus (for the reasons I put forth a few days ago, I can easily put him in my group of five favorite characters from the entirety of Dragonball, and that's saying a lot), but I want him to remain virtually untouchable, with the obvious exception of Whis. I certainly don't want him to get beaten to a pulp or surpassed by anyone else, much less get a major ass-whooping. He's Hakaishin Beerus, for f***'s sake. Everyone should bow down before him and be grateful just for having the honor of breathing the same air he breathes.
I mean, things just need to reach a point where there is just no more barriers to cross, and we're presented to the one who is actually THE strongest living entity in the history of all Universes, and I hope it turns out to be the Beerus/Whis duo (before his introduction in recent years, I went for over a decade and a half utterly idolizing Vegitto as the one holding that honor, as in, he was basically invincible and untouchable, the real, ultimate Saikyou no Senshi).
Of course, in my view, among Dragonball's many fundamental aspects which make it so fantastic (violence, character development, drama, brutal fights, humor, randomness, etc.), the major factor and life lesson-teaching is the fact that one shouldn't feel defeated or humiliated by finding someone else stronger than you, because you can always personally do whatever it takes to surpass them yourself and manage to come out on top in the end, having the last laugh. By doing this numerous times, over and over again, you'll eventually find yourself, without having noticed it before, one of the strongest fighters there ever was before you know it.
Goku and especially Vegeta are the main personifications of this attitude, as pure Saiya-jin, but this lesson taught several times throughout Dragonball is something that fans should see as an example in their own lives and apply to their own personal obstacles and adversaries.
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samuraix123 wrote:
Hey guys I know this has been discussed to death but I was just hoping to get this cleared up for me. When does battle of Gods and Revival Of F take place(try not to give too many spoilers for ROF please.) Since Super takes place right after the Majin Boo saga will we eventually get a fast forward to the moment Goku and Uub fly off and go train? I really would like to see him show up in Super.
You're right, it's been debated to death, but basically the 2008 (Tarble) special takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu, BoG takes place 2 years after that and Fukkatsu no F takes place 1 year after that, which means 5 years WOULD have gone by between Kid Buu's defeat and the resurrection of Freeza. However, and this is the part that's it's really been debated to death, it's almost sure - we've been going back and forth on this every day for over a month - that at least the Beerus-dedicated episodes in DBSuper are presenting almost the same exact events we saw in BoG although at a different timing, and the same could apply to Fukkatsu no F, rendering the events depicted in the movie "non-canon", as in, they didn't actually "happen"; what DOES happen is what we get to see in DBSuper, regardless of how and when it does and regardless of the changes/similarities between the events in the series and those of the movie(s). Also, until further notice, the last 3 episodes of DBZ (last Tenkaichi Budokai and introduction of Uub) happen 5 years after Fukkatsu no F WOULD have happened, and 10 years after the defeat of Kid Buu, but that's another issue we've been debating to death (the possibility of changing or even going as far as erasing the events of the last 3 episodes of DBZ, ten years later in the storyline, from the timeline/history).
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SansrivaaL wrote:
Glad to see someone other than me here wants to see Beerus get his ass cat kicked, he thinks way too highly of himself kinda like how Goku is at times but thats been taken care of by a lot of characters kicking his ass.
I can understand why some of you might want this happen, pretty much the way I loved it when Goku got his ass absolutely destroyed by Piccolo Daimao, for example (unlike Freeza during the first half of their fight, before he goes Super Saiya-jiin, but that's only because Freeza was so perfect a villain that he actually made me hate him for all he had done and I regarded Goku as the embodiment of every race and living thing he destroyed, including the Saiya-jin, the Namek-sei-jin and Vegeta).
The strongest Goku always got throughout DB and DBZ, the higher he deep down thought of himself, only to find himself overwhelmed by an entire list of villains (whom he - and Vegeta - eventually surpasses, which is the focal point of Dragonball, in fact).
Vegeta and Piccolo are my favorite characters in the entirety of Dragonball, and I really felt for them after they suffered major defeats (Vegeta crying and being tortured by that f***** Freeza still has me traumatized since childhood, just for example), but it also served the purpose of presenting them with a further challenge to surpass themselves again and again, which they take and are successful in. Vegeta, especially, has thought of himself (and others thought of him) as having become stronger than Goku after major defeats on more than one occasion, but episodes after that he gets his ass kicked yet again, and so on, and so on (thinks he's enough for Kiwi, Dodoria and Zarbon, but gets his ass violently kicked by Zarbon the first time they fight, and then brutally murders him episodes after; thinks he's better than Freeza but gets tortured by him and has Goku reach the Super Saiya-jin stage before him, but three years later he's arguably stronger than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin against #19; thinks he's the best fighter in the Universe but gets utterly dominated by #18, only to further surpass himself by going beyond the first stage of SSJ and crush Cell at this second stage, who is far above #18, and then gets his ass humiliatingly kicked again by Cell episodes later due to his pride/arrogance/stupidity of having let and actually HELPED Cell reach his perfect stage).
Going back to the Vegeta/Freeza relationship, the utter desperation I felt two decades ago SHOULD have been totally compensated by the fact that Vegeta finally got his chance to display his enormous and unbelievable increase in power to Freeza and take care of him personally, taking revenge in 2015 for a traumatic event which happened to him - and to me - in 1991, but he's just far too emotionally indifferent to Freeza throughout the movie. I guess he just went through too much and developed his character and emotions so much that he no longer felt the need to brag about his level of power, even to Freeza.
However... Well, this might a little bit suspicious coming from a cat-lover and an admirer of Beerus (for the reasons I put forth a few days ago, I can easily put him in my group of five favorite characters from the entirety of Dragonball, and that's saying a lot), but I want him to remain virtually untouchable, with the obvious exception of Whis. I certainly don't want him to get beaten to a pulp or surpassed by anyone else, much less get a major ass-whooping. He's Hakaishin Beerus, for f***'s sake. Everyone should bow down before him and be grateful just for having the honor of breathing the same air he breathes.
I mean, things just need to reach a point where there is just no more barriers to cross, and we're presented to the one who is actually THE strongest living entity in the history of all Universes, and I hope it turns out to be the Beerus/Whis duo (before his introduction in recent years, I went for over a decade and a half utterly idolizing Vegitto as the one holding that honor, as in, he was basically invincible and untouchable, the real, ultimate Saikyou no Senshi).
Of course, in my view, among Dragonball's many fundamental aspects which make it so fantastic (violence, character development, drama, brutal fights, humor, randomness, etc.), the major factor and life lesson-teaching is the fact that one shouldn't feel defeated or humiliated by finding someone else stronger than you, because you can always personally do whatever it takes to surpass them yourself and manage to come out on top in the end, having the last laugh. By doing this numerous times, over and over again, you'll eventually find yourself, without having noticed it before, one of the strongest fighters there ever was before you know it.
Goku and especially Vegeta are the main personifications of this attitude, as pure Saiya-jin, but this lesson taught several times throughout Dragonball is something that fans should see as an example in their own lives and apply to their own personal obstacles and adversaries.
Lord Beerus wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Also, anyone else bothered by Majin Boo being a complete douche?
Oh, hell yeah. Out of all the characters in Dragon Ball that Toei love to exaggerate in terms of their signature traits and memorable characteristics, Majin Boo is the worst case of this. He's become a flat out asshole. He's basically become Eric Cartman. I can't wait Beerus to kick his ass when they continue retelling the events of BOG.
Spoiler:View
Honestly? I've only addressed Majin Buu's apparent change in attitude in the first episode of DBSuper when compared to the character development he went through during the Majin Buu arc once, and I think that going as far as comparing him to Eric Cartman is pushing it a little bit. Eric Cartman is a sociopath, not just a fat jealous glutton greedy envious asshole. They sort of had to include fat Majin Buu as part of the supporting team after he became friends with Mr. Satan and fought against Kid Buu during the Majin Buu arc, but given his character and intellectual shortcomings, there's not a lot of room for further development by introducing new concepts to his personality and acts.
Again, sometimes it's just better to stick what you already know, or to cease from presenting the characters entirely, than to make up stuff just for the sake of it with pretty disappointing results. Doesn't bother too much, though, he'll just be blown away by Beerus the way he was in BoG, if that makes you particularly happy. I'm personally almost indifferent to fat Majin Buu and his role in DBSuper, but if it really bothers some of you, be sure that Beerus will punish him royally, whether because of his refusal to share any pudding or whatever the reason they choose it to be in the series.
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Herms wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
TomTom wrote:
Hi all, the preview of the next épisode. :)
Image
The resolution is too small for me to translate. T_T
I'm sure someone with higher kanji skills will get to it. I still need the pronunciations to be able to get it, and the pronunciations are tiny and fuzzy due to the resolution.
Nothing new: Goku challenges Beerus, despite Kaio warning him not to. Beerus is searching for clues about Super Saiyan God, and when he hears Goku knows nothing about it, he heads to Earth to ask Vegeta. No mention of Champa or anything else not seen in BoG.
Thought so. That image there displaying half of the picture we had seen weeks ago depicting the encounter between Beerus and Champa doesn't mean that they'll be meeting in episode 5 already.
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LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Also, anyone else bothered by Majin Boo being a complete douche?
Oh, hell yeah. Out of all the characters in Dragon Ball that Toei love to exaggerate in terms of their signature traits and memorable characteristics, Majin Boo is the worst case of this. He's become a flat out asshole. He's basically become Eric Cartman. I can't wait Beerus to kick his ass when they continue retelling the events of BOG.
Spoiler:View
I hope this time piccolo has a legitimate reason to fight beerus. I mean Beerus attacked buu after buu said he was gonna KILL him. Buu was being a dick,and threatened to kill beerus. It seamed messed up they ganged up on beerus when techniquily, buu was the bad guy.
It was just the best "excuse" they could find in the movie to have a number of the fighters in the team getting absolutely dominated and overwhelmed by Beerus, to further demonstrate the latter's entirely different dimension in terms of power.
What I DO hope regarding Piccolo - and I've "complained" for the first time a few days ago about the lack of attention given to him so far in DBSuper, as a huge fan of him - is that he gets to land more than one blow when attacking Beerus. However, at the same time, I want Beerus to KO him just as effortlessly and almost as quickly as he did in BoG, as a demonstration of the fact that he's basically untouchable to anyone in there (if he KO's Ultimate Gohan with a kick, it's not surprising that he should be able to KO Piccolo with two masterfully applied pressure-points to his body, even with chopsticks).
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LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
True but chop sticks should just break on Piccolo. They should have made Beerus put his KI into the sticks. Because it doesn't matter about his power,the amount of force he uses+the strength of piccolo's body means the sticks shoulda broke. I hope episode 6 does it better then battle of gods. Super already seams beter,at least in terms of animation...just a little bit.
Hmm, I did say "masterfully-applied" blows with the chopsticks. Beerus is so skilled a martial artist that he probably not only chose exactly which pressure-points to touch but "infused" the chopsticks with the ability/physical strength to be unbreakable upon contact with even Piccolo, who was indeed arguably in his full fighting force at the time.
Martial arts, especially in an universe as unreal as Dragonball, with the entire concept of development + manipulation of Ki, is not only about physical strength. In fact, I've always theorized that the physical strength of the fighters throughout DB and DBZ is augmented to insane degrees by precisely having it exponentially grow through the usage of Ki (as in, their bodies are naturally strong, but they only reach the insane degrees of resistance and strength when the fighters use their Ki to basically become superhuman ALSO at a physical level, beyond the usage of Ki blasts, etc.). Also, the ability to physically destroy stuff with kicks and punches also comes not from their base physical strength, but from the fact that they "infuse" their physical blows with the Ki to make the punches and kicks reach an insane degree of destructiveness. According to this theory, if a particular fighter is unconscious and thus unable to use their Ki for any purpose, they're rendered pretty much inoffensive, no more powerful than a well-trained and well-built regular man. But that's just a theory, though. Could be totally wrong.
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It's actually also been debated to death recently, but I've always defended the possibility of Vegeta going, or at least becoming able to go Super Saiya-jin 3 at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, instead of skipping the stage and going from Super Saiya-jin 2 straight to Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
Regardless of how obsolete and ancient the concept of Super Saiya-jin 3 is, I've defended this theory because by the time of Fukkastu no F Vegeta is close to/on par with Goku in terms of power level in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage, and he's shown using his base form after having incorporated the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God when training with Whis, which is something Goku also uses during his fight with Beerus, Freeza and while training under Whis.
My theory is that the Super Saiya-jin God and the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages multiply the Saiya-jin's MAXIMUM power level at an exponential rate, which would mean that, if Goku and Vegeta are on par with each other in their SSJGSSJ stages, then Vegeta's maximum power level upon which the transformation expands and multiplies has to be equal to that of Goku's (Super Saiya-jin 3). If he transformed into Super Saiya-jin God and then Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin based on his maximum power level of Super Saiya-jin 2, then his power level in the SSJG and SSJGSSJ forms would be below Goku's (according to the theory).
In my view, the Super Saiya-jin God and the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin transformations occur in entirely different circumstances and are achieved through different methods when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin stages (which, in my personal opinion, basically build upon the previous one, in a gradual step-by-step basis (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3), rendering SSJG and SSJGSSJ entirely separate events.
According to this theory, any Saiya-jin who happens to transform into Super Saiya-jin God and/or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin will have, in those stages, a power level in accordance with what their MAXIMUM power level his when NOT in those stages (in Goku's case, when he does transform, Super Saiya-jin 3, and in the case of the original Saiya-jin who turned SSJG by chance back in Planet Vegeta, the regular power level of a low-class Saiya-jin warrior).
Basically, I postulate a scenario in which Vegeta basically follows Goku's every step in terms of Super Saiya-jin transformations, although just a little bit later (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with the power of SSJG and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin).
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Noah wrote:
You guys think that Champa is weaker than Beerus or they're equal?
We can only speculate on how powerful Champa really is (and in fact, on who and what he actually is, and just what his relationship with Beerus is), but, regardless of what I think, what I do HOPE is that Beerus is stronger, and I think the picture we were exposed to is enough to postulate that Beerus has some sort of leverage/superiority over Champa, who could be jealous of him and wants to challenge/compete with/get revenge on him.
There's definitely some sort of rivalry/antagonism/tension between the two of them, for a number of possible reasons we already discussed, but, as a Beerus admirer and lover of his character, I do really hope Beerus has the upper hand in terms of power, although I doubt that superiority will be shown in actual battle (as in, I doubt they'll actually fight at any point in the future, although they might have done so in the distant past).
If Champa turns out to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th (and there are good reasons to base this theory upon, as Champa has similar clothing, has similar physical traits and even has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis, and the two share an almost identical resemblance), then it would be possible that they're pretty much equal in terms of power, though, despite the fact that the picture hints otherwise.
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Can I talk to you somewhere other than here, in a more direct way?
I went through your posts in tumblr a little bit and I'm finding myself strangely attracted to you.
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shinmaru wrote:
I think Bills is stronger. but I don't think Champa is the main villian of universe 6.
Another theory is that they could have been competitors for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, and after Beerus won, Champa has been plotting some sort of scheme to get revenge on him (pretty much along the lines of Garlic Jr. trying to get revenge on Kami for the latter having been chosen for the position of Guardian of Earth instead of his father).
Besides, who said anything about a villain? Even if he is the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe (which is nothing more than a possibility), he certainly can't be deemed "evil". Nor "good", either. Just like Beerus. Not evil, not good, no one's ally, just the Hakaishin.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Basically, I postulate a scenario in which Vegeta basically follows Goku's every step in terms of Super Saiya-jin transformations, although just a little bit later (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with the power of SSJG and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin).
The base form with the power of SSG is officially called in the video-games "Saiyan beyond God", in case you didn't know.
Yes, I knew that, I just don't like the term too much because it lacks the "Super" on it.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
Scott wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
I really wanna see Beerus get his ass kicked. I hate his kind of person. Too bad he's possibly a creators pet and we may never have someone do that (I don't count that Whis chop as anything, needs to be complete domination like 18 vs Vegeta)
On those two, yeah Chi Chi's role is to be a bitchy bitch bitch bitch, while Roshi's role is to be a pervy pervy perv perv. That's pretty much all their good for, cheap laughs. Nothing was more forced than Muten Roshi in episode 1.
I would be fine if Beerus was killed off at some point to be honest, i can't understand why Goku or any Z fighter would ever get along with him. He kills people just because they annoy him. He may well be just doing his job but someone like Goku would never be comfortable with another person killing people, he would do his best to stop that person, just like he did against Freeza.
I still don't really get Beerus' job to be honest. His job is to destroy planets to maintain some sort of balance in the Universe........what balance ? why does it matter if there are loads of planets out there ? I see the gods of destruction as evil personally. The people that know of Beerus all fear him, just like they did with Freeza, i can't look at him and see him as a good person.
Job or not I can't really see Goku liking a guy who kills entire worlds for a living.
While there are indeed SOME similarities between Beerus and Freeza (both appear to enjoy the sight of planets blowing up in flames, both control or are in charge of parts of the Universe - in Beerus' case, its entirety -, both are feared to death because of their power, etc.), there's a major difference between them which sets them apart decisively: you don't really see Beerus enslaving entire races of beings, torturing people before killing them for pure sadism, being a maniacal, evil, genocidal narcissistic egotistical megalomaniacal f*** (which is what pretty much makes Freeza the perfect incarnation of a DBZ villain, and why he's so charismatic and is remembered and re-referenced constantly even to this day). On the contrary, Beerus, although a little bit narcissistic, arrogant and proud (being THAT powerful and making even the highest deities in the Universe be terrified just because of hearing your name will do that to you, eventually), does display a humorous and laid-back attitude at most times. He doesn't destroy planets and beings because he's evil, he does it both because it's his job (the "excuse" they came up with of it being necessary to destroy worlds/planets in order to maintain the balance in the Universe wasn't exactly the best thing ever invented in Dragonball, but it's acceptable) AND whenever something just happens to piss him off, no matter how trivial it might be (and here's where he displays what we could call a character fault).
Beerus is so probably so unreal an entity that he most likely has a totally different concept of what "good" and "evil" mean. Besides, we can't call killing entire worlds a "job". It's his "mission", what he was taught how to do and what he eventually became able to do, and my theory on his background and history is that, like Goku, Vegeta and some others, he was originally not a "deity", just a regular being with an enormous potential and power who went through a long process of developing it not only by himself but also with the help of others (namely Whis, upon recognizing his abilities); he wasn't created by magic like Majin Buu was, for example, he might well have been originally more of an alien than a deity or a magical being. He did accept the role of Hakaishin, whereas Goku declined it, just like he declined the role of Guardian of Earth offered by Kami right after defeating Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. If the theory on Champa having been a competitor for the role of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe against Beerus at some point in the distant past is right, then it would explain the rivalry/animosity between the two, but it might well be that Champa is just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe (there are numerous reasons to make this a credible scenario and possibility), which would ALSO explain, to some degree, the tension between them, or he might even be someone/something else with an entirely different and rather surprising background that cause all of these theories to collapse.
Whis is most likely tasked with the role of training and preparing the successive Hakaishin after each one perishes, which is something actually hinted at the end of BoG, when he states that when Beerus dies, Goku could become the next Hakaishin. Why it's not just Whis who does the job himself, being even more powerful than Beerus and probably all the other past Hakaishin, and consequently more than fit to fulfill the purpose of the successive Hakaishin, is beyond me. It certainly has nothing to do with his personality, since he displays no disapproval of Beerus' volatile and destructive activities.
While Beerus certainly can't be deemed "evil", he most certainly can't be deemed "good" either. Like all cats, he's a bit egotistical, proud and uncaring, doesn't bother to help others in need even when it would be the "right" thing to do. Also, like any figure in actual history or in fiction who reaches absolute, or near-absolute power, it eventually gets to his head and as a result he starts displaying what we would call morally erratic behavior in the form of arrogance, volatility, "unjustified" destruction, etc. The concept of his personality is entirely new in Dragonball, we've never seen anything like this. We've seen entirely pure-hearted warriors (Goku, Gohan), we've seen entirely evil, genocial, maniacal villains (Freeza, Future #17, Future #18, Cell), we've seen regular folks, we've seen well-spoken and polite deities (the Kaioshin), we've seen powerful warriors with a tendency for violence and destruction (the Saiya-jin, in general), we've seen gifted fighters belonging to different races handpicked to serve under Freeza (Zarbon, Dodoria, Kiwi, Vegeta, Nappa), we've seen peace-loving yet powerful aliens (Namek-sei-jin), we've seen nature-loving androids (#16), we've seen serious, stoic warriors with the sole purpose of becoming better martial artists fighting for good when necessary (Piccolo, Tenshinhan), we've seen mad scientists bent on revenge and conquest (Dr. Gero), we've seen magical entities with no purpose other than to destroy everything in sight (Majin/Kid Buu), we've seen demons and their respective kings/rulers (Piccolo Daimao, Shura, Dabura), etc., etc., but we've never seen an entity who combines a level of power far, far above that of ANY of even the highest deities with a laid-back attitude, some degree of comic aspects/humor and a tendency to lose it over trivial matters and start destroying everything in sight with his absolutely immense, untouchable might, like Beerus. We can't really complain about the characterization of Beerus, Toriyama did a pretty good job at inventing yet another character with interesting features without repeating past concepts, anything other than that could be disastrous, turn BoG into a failure and seriously hinder the medium/long-term possibilities of generating more Dragonball stories after that.
You might just be getting sick or starting to get annoyed at his attitude and his apparent random destruction of planets, I've seen and read you complaining more and more about Beerus and displaying your wish that he gets his ass kicked, which is something I don't share with you, but don't get your hopes too high. He'll remain above everyone, except Whis, who, in a way, can't even be separated from him and with whom Beerus shares a rather interesting and mysterious attendant/master relationship the likes of which we ALSO have never seen before.
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Goku's primary interest in Beerus is that he's really strong and he wants to fight him, the nature of Beerus' character is of secondary importance to Goku. This is why Goku let Vegeta live, and why he tried twice to allow Freeza to live, he wanted to fight them again.
As for Beerus being good or evil, he's neither, he's beyond good and evil, he's like a force of nature and he does something that's necessary. If you're interested in the philosophy behind this, pick up a book on Taoism or the Buddhist concept of pratitya-samutpada.
Regarding Beerus being deemed "good" or "evil", you basically repeated which I wrote before you in a much shorter version. He's not good nor is he evil, he doesn't do what he does because it's the "right" thing to do nor does he destroy planets and beings because he's a maniacal villain, he has been tasked with a mission and, apart from the instances in which he loses it over trivial matters and destroys more than he's supposed to, he sticks to it because that's what's expected of him. He's no one's ally either. He's beyond all that stuff, he doesn't cause terror in those who know about him and his enormous massive power because he tortures them or displays it on purpose, he does so because a few beings crossed his path of destruction and somehow managed to live to tell about it. He's so unreal an entity that his concept of "good" and evil" most likely differs fundamentally from ours and that of regular beings in Dragonball, to the point he can't even tell the difference on our "terms". The whole concept of "right" and "wrong", of "righteousness" and "evil" we base our lives upon doesn't apply to an entity like Hakaishin Beerus.
However, like most real historical figures and the most powerful of villains in fiction, absolute power does distort the mind, and that's why Beerus can be quite cocky, arrogant, dismissive, egotistical and demanding here and there.
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I didn't mean to be weird or anything, I just want to talk to you. Give me a "yes" or "no" (if it's a "no" I won't bother you anymore).
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Ok, no problem. Even if it was possible I've always regarded having "online relationships" as ridiculous. My present and past "attempts" may originate online, but I'm not a nerd or anything who has zero life, I actually spend very little time at my computer for professional and family-related reasons, and all the relationships I've had in my life were real ones. I guess I just wanted to talk to you a little bit, most likely because I found your pictures cute and you're a DBZ fan. :mrgreen:
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I honestly never really thought that my theory of Vegeta basically following Goku's every step a bit later regarding each of the Super Saiya-jin transformations would come true, but it appears there's a good chance it will. The concept of Super Saiya-jin 3 might be a little outdated and obsolete, but it would make much more sense to me if Vegeta did reach/become able to reach it, in order to have him become just as strong as Goku at his very strongest when they BOTH transform into Super Saiya-jin God and then Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, at which stage they're shown to be exactly on par in Fukkatsu no F. I'd like it to become true because it would prove that my theory - and that's what it was, just a theory - of the SSJG and SSGSSJ transformations basically working along the lines of Kaio Ken (increasing or multiplying the MAXIMUM strength a Saiya-jin has at their very limits by a given degree - in Goku's case, Super Saiya-jin 3 - as opposed to multiplying their strength in their base forms). Basically, to make the theory complete, and in order for it to make sense that by Fukkatsu no F (and its upcoming retelling in DBSuper) both Goku and Vegeta are basically on par in terms of sheer power as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, the only way to go is to have their MAXIMUM power also be the same (both Super Saiya-jin 3). According to the theory, if Vegeta hadn't been able to overcome Super Saiya-jin 2, he should be far below Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
This is the main reason for me to have postulated more than once that Vegeta could go, or at least become able to go Super Saiya-jin 3 (in the movies's "timeline," at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and in the series main timeline, either during or after the Beerus arc). If that's what they mean by "transformation" ("henshin") upon losing it over Beerus slapping Bulma (one additional change when compared to the movie, which would be good), then that would be just fantastic. He's obviously no match for Beerus even as a Super Saiya-jin 3, just as Goku/Ultimate Gohan aren't, but at least that would make him overcome the gap there has been between him and Goku, and even Gohan from the moment when the latter gained his Ultimate form.
However, "henshin" is a word used in Japanese throughout DBZ to refer to pretty much any change deep enough to render a particular fighter stronger, so my whole theory of a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta should never be taken as fact just because the word is there. It could very well just be an increase in power without any physical transformation, triggered by an explosion of anger, exactly as it happened in BoG.
Just as we all expect Goku's fight against Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet to last longer than it did in the movie (in BoG, Goku was KO'd with a masterfulyl applied pressure-point attack in a matter of one minute) in the upcoming episode, it would also be good to take the opportunity that this is a series of episodes rather than a time-restricted movie to expand upon the time each fighter has to have a go at Beerus, especially Vegeta (and, to some degree, Ultimate Gohan), although a slightly expanded fighting time for Vegeta, Gohan, #18 or Piccolo SHOULDN'T mean that they don't get ultimately overwhelmed by Beerus just as easily and effortlessly as they did in BoG, as that is fundamental to show just how enormous the gap is between Hakaishin Beerus and ANY of them, including the very strongest; I just want to have some awesome fighting going on, just like 80's and 90's DBZ, with the obvious changes/adaptations. It is indeed possible to have Beerus KO all of them just as effortlessly as he did in the movie, and pretty much in the same fashion, but we've gotta have at least slightly longer tries by at least the majority of them when they go against Beerus, and I'm not talking just about Vegeta.
Pilaf had to be given his time in order for his appearance in the arc to have any sense at all, they just didn't have to dedicate more than half an episode to him, that's all. Episode 4 wasn't weak, it was just the least good/entertaining so far, but we'll get utterly compensated for that in the next one, when things - finally - get serious in the fighting department as Goku gradually realizes he's encountered yet someone else (a lot) above him (in fact, in an entirely different league altogether).
Judging from the names of the episodes, it's become pretty much established that the estimations me and a few others did a few days ago on how many episodes would be dedicated to the entire Beerus arc, its aftermath and its transition into/beginning of the Freeza arc were entirely wrong. Initially I thought that after after 2/3 episodes of (re)introducing characters along with some ominous/mysterious appearances by Beerus, after Beerus KO's Goku in episode 5, after his interactions with Vegeta and the others on Earth (including the aforementioned potential Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta transformation) and his fight with Goku, the entire retelling of BoG will be done by episodes 10/12, and after one or two in-between smoother episodes dealing with the aftermath of fight, the reemergence of Freeza would begin in episode 14/16, and the retelling of Fukkatsu no F would be done by episodes 23/25, but it seems like we won't be getting into the real, entirely new stuff in the 6th Universe arc until after episode 30 or something along those lines.
I'm already anticipating the further disappointment by a chunk of fans who were already frustrated by the fact that an entirely new series dedicates its first two entire arcs to the retelling of events we've already seen. I myself have been over that since a long time ago, it's also an interesting exercise to watch just what they change when compared to BoG and just what additions they put into DBSuper's version of the events. It also provides us with the possibility of developing and expanding upon everyone's fighting abilities when challenging Beerus. Everyone needs to be patient and look on the bright side of the decision of the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in pretty much the exact same circumstances instead of being on the verge of skipping episodes until we get to finally reach the 6th Universe arc.
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Lord Beerus wrote:
Noah wrote:
I want to see Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 3! I WANT! I WANT! I WANT!
I highly doubt Super is gonna give us SSJ3 Vegeta. It would be beyond redundant given it'll only happen for that one scene where Vegeta loses his shit aft Beerus hits Bulma. After that, SSJ3 Vegeta will most likely never appear again.
If you read the full explanation of my theory on why he COULD or should go Super Saiya-jin 3 either in this thread or in another one a few days ago (I actually explained in-depth it more than once), then you would understand why I go against the entire idea of it being "redundant". I understand your point of view, though. Everyone has to understand that my theory on a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta at some point has to do with the fact that I want my theory proven correct, not because the physical traits and characteristics of the stage are particularly appealing to me, especially when applied to Vegeta.
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Besides, to be honest, although it is theoretically possible to get a power boost after a trigger (namely, anger, as in most cases of Super Saiya-jin transformations in several characters throughout DBZ), which is what we were presented to in BoG when Vegeta is said to have "surpassed Goku" (without undergoing an actual SSJ physical transformation Goku had already attained a long time ago), I've always viewed the whole thing about Vegeta surpassing Goku after Bulma gets beaten by Beerus as poorly explained and going against a number of theories on how the Super Saiya-jin transformations work regarding their respective boost in power, etc.
Don't get me wrong, Vegeta is my favorite character in the entirety of Dragonball, and I do want him to at least FINALLY be on par with Goku and surpass him (although this one, despite having happened temporarily in the past, will never be a full-time concept, as Goku will always be AT LEAST as strong as Vegeta, or "one step ahead of him"), and I can even understand the main - or sole - reason to say that he surpassed Goku when he attacks Beerus for the second time in BoG (the reason being to show that he deeply cares about his family and can lose and go in a rampage against ANYBODY if someone just happens to threaten, torture, kill or injure his deep-down loved ones), but without actually undergoing a physical, actual transformation into the next stage of Super Saiya-jin (Super Saiya-jin 3), I've always regarded the possibility of him having surpassed Goku, who was/is in fact a Super Saiya-jin 3, almost as a plot-hole, but maybe I'm being or have always been too much of a purist regarding my theories on how exactly each Super Saiya-jin transformation works and how much of an increase in power each one of them grants, and/or on what exact limits in terms of power are "imposed" to each Super Saiya-jin stage.
Basically, the whole theory I presented a few days ago on the possibility of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper has until now had a percentage of probability of coming true of 5%, and now, with the episode title(s), and with the word "henshin", it has just risen to 20% or something.
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irreality wrote:
They did *not* use Henshin.
Sorry, my bad. I just arrived home and found an entire page with the news on the names of the episodes and I guess I read your posts in the last page too hastily. But anyway, "transformation" is there anyway. The possibilities I've postulated in my last posts still apply. "Transformation" could mean he'll indeed undergo a physical Super Saiya-jin transformation into the next stage (Super Saiya-jin 3), or it could simply mean he'll just go insane and ballistic, which is a "transformation" of character/personality/psychological makeup.
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irreality wrote:
They did *not* use Henshin.
Sorry, my bad. I just arrived home and found an entire page with the news on the names of the episodes and I guess I read your posts in the last page too hastily. But anyway, "transformation" is there anyway. The possibilities I've postulated in my last posts still apply. "Transformation" could mean he'll indeed undergo a physical Super Saiya-jin transformation into the next stage (Super Saiya-jin 3), or it could simply mean he'll just go insane and ballistic, which is a "transformation" of character/personality/psychological makeup.
irreality wrote:
...and now, with the episode title(s), and with the word "henshin", it has just risen to 20% or something.
They did *not* use Henshin.
know people harp on about how Vegeta surpassed Goku in SS2 state but that makes sense, it happened only for those few seconds, the way I see it Vegeta's body couldn't physically handle/ become the SS3 transformation (for reasons I stated) so it did the next best thing and gave a huge kind of like adrenaline shot if you will to SS2 form and so because of this Vegeta was able to keep up for those few seconds, that is how I rationale the whole rage boost thing in my head anyway.
That is how I see it in my head, too.
That goes against the theories I've held on the limits "imposed" to each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and that's why I've always found the entire "Vegeta surpassing Goku" in BoG after losing it over Bulma almost a plot-hole, but I could be very well wrong all along and there can be indeed the possibility of having more power in a "lesser" Super Saiya-jin stage than another with a "higher" Super Saiya-jin stage given the right circumstances.
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Setting the whole debate over Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 or not aside for a moment, and going back to the episode's titles and what they mean, or could mean, regarding the events and the time it will take to get through the entirety of the Beerus arc:
6. Don't offend the God of Destruction! Heart-pounding Birthday Party.
7. How dare you, that is my Bulma! Angry Vegeta's Transformation!
8. Goku is watching! Last Chance from Beerus-sama!
9. Thank you for waiting Beerus-sama, Finally Super Saiyan God is born.
I'm not going to go and watch BoG in detail again to check on how each of the events hinted at with these titles correspond to the timing at which the same events take place in the movie, but I honestly thought that we'd get a Vegeta vs Beerus-focused episode sooner and especially Goku achieving Super Saiya-jin God (through the ritual shown in the movie or through some other method) MUCH sooner. I don't see the point at this stage of episode 8 (as in, after everyone - including Vegeta - gets their asses kicked by Beerus, Goku's (re)appearance and proceeding to understand what and how a Super Saiya-jin God is and how he can achieve it should follow almost immediately), but I'll have to see exactly how they put things together in each episode to decide if it was really the right thing to do to stretch it out so much.
By having Goku transform into Super Saiya-jin God only in episode 9 (regardless of whether it's at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of the episode), it also means that their fight will arguably take place in episode 10 and possibly spilling out to 11, with the aftermath (Beerus "destroying" Earth, Whis' proposition to Goku, Beerus and Whis leaving, Beerus pondering on the fight he just had, etc.) in episode 12. If that's right, 12 episodes to retell BoG in its entirety can't be considered too much, either. It doesn't actually go far beyond what we estimated (10/12 episodes).
Back to Vegeta vs Beerus, not only do I hope that their fight is stretched out a lot in the series' version of the events, and it appears it will, taking into account the title of episode 7, I also hope that Vegeta manages to hold his own against Beerus for quite a while and goes beyond landing a few extremely powerful punches and kicks and an enormously and massively destructive Ki blast at Beerus only to be KO'd with a single pressure-point attack to his forehead, like in BoG. I hope he takes the opportunity his boost in power due to losing it over Bulma provides him to fight somewhat toe-to-toe with Beerus for a few minutes, (despite Beerus being holding back all along, of course), displaying Vegeta's fighting genius (which might actually be more present in his first "normal" attempt, before he goes insane after Bulma being hit by Beerus, as he's in his normal state of mind at that moment).
I've confessed this for the first time here very recently for the first time yesterday or something, but I also hope Piccolo is given the (fighting) time he deserves. I know he's below fat Majin Buu and Ultimate Gohan as far as power goes, but, although he should be KO'd just as effortlessly by Beerus as he is in BoG, I want him to throw a desperate Makankosappo at Beerus or something along those lines.
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Chuquita wrote:
Mutation's a weird word choice. Makes me think of ninja turtles, zombies, and rare diseases; not so much power-up transformation sequences.
Could someone please explain further about the "mutation" kanji?
I have to agree with most of you. Getting that word in the episode title translated as "mutation" automatically leads one to think of some sort or weird physical transformation unlike anything we've seen before, triggering all kinds of possible new abilities or hindrances, but we're probably just over-debating a word due to the simple fact that they chose to put a lot of emphasis on Vegeta losing it in the form of going as far as having his episode referred to as a "transformation", where in fact no actual physical transformation actually occurs, only a temporary power boost triggered by anger plus an also temporary psychotic episode (as in, losing control over his actions, which is something we see in a number of instances throughout DBZ, particularly when the Saiya-jin go Oozaru, when Gohan has his numerous tantrums, when Goku, Mirai no Trunks and Vegeta reach a point/degree of anger that actually triggers their first respective Super Saiya-jin transformations, when Brolly basically goes insane and manages to break the control Paragas had over him, proceeding to go around destroying everything and everyone in sight in an unstoppable rampage, etc., etc.).
sangofe wrote:
Turambar wrote:
It seems like Vegeta will indeed get SS3 in episode 7 when Beerus smacks Bulma. The title seems to imply this, at least.
Sure doesn't to me. It's kinda a "mutation" by itself that Vegeta reacts so much to someone hitting Bulma.
Again, although the title along with the (low) possibility of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 for it to make (more) sense that he gets a power boost triggered by anger to the point of surpassing Goku, who's a Super Saiya-jin 3, could increase the probability of it happening, they could be referring to the mere fact that Vegeta gets so out-of-control and goes so berserk upon watching Beerus slapping Bulma that not only does he just temporarily lose his mind, he also gets the respective power boost, with a certain limits, without ever undergoing any actual physical Super Saiya-jin transformation (I believe that whereas "henshin" refers to an actual physical transformation, the right word to use when someone changes so much to the point of SEEMING like an entirely "different person" is "tetsujin").
I'm not going to repeat myself on why I would partially like to see Vegeta go Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper. It has only to do with the fact that I'd like my theory proven right, and I've explained the theory I'm referring to in-depth three times both in this thread and in others as well.
I don't want it to happen because I'm particularly fond of the stage regarding its physical traits and characteristics, which I'm most certainly not, ESPECIALLY NOT when applied to Vegeta (I know some DBZ fans have been fantasizing over it for years and would have an orgasm if they saw it actually happen, but I quite honestly believe it would look awkwardly wrong on Vegeta, regardless of the outfit he's wearing at the time, and this is coming from someone who has Vegeta as his favorite all-time Dragonball character, so I have high standards for him regarding pretty much everything, from personality and clothes to power and appearance).
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sintzu wrote:
BlackCatScott wrote:
?udging by the titles we should be getting Vegetas bingo song/dance imminently :P
Hopefully we'll get more scenes of him trying to keep Beerus happy before his dance.
They could very well go for once more (major) change in the depiction of the events when compared to BoG and scrap the entire thing about Vegeta being so frightful of Beerus and subsequently ditching his pride on numerous occasions to keep anyone from causing Beerus to lose it. I think that we've already went through the process of (re)introducing the characters in a proper way in the first episodes of DBSuper, and there might be no place for additional Vegeta's silly/funny/comic moments such as the bingo dance. After his fulfilling of his promise to Trunks in episode 2 he went right back to his training and gave the impression of having fully regressed to his obsession to overcome and surpass not only Kakarotto, but indeed anyone in the Universe, so his entire approach to any circumstances from now on in the series COULD very well be much more serious than what we saw in BoG.
Just because he knows of Beerus' insane level of power and imminent danger, it shouldn't mean that he'll approach him with the same level of caution and utter and sheer terror as he displayed in the movie. In BoG, he goes as far as to say that it would be an honor to be eradicated by the Hakaishin Beerus himself, but I highly doubt we'll get any of that from Vegeta after him having reacquired his full desire to be serious and indeed obsessive about his training and fighting prowess (and, obviously, his pride).
He'll obviously try to keep anyone from causing Beerus to get angry, but I'd say - or at least I hope - he doesn't go to such great lengths (to the point of entirely ditching his pride in more than once occasion) to prevent others from upsetting the Hakaishin. He could very well explain to everybody who and what Beerus is beforehand, which would partially help explain the title chosen for episode 6 and prevent anyone from offending Beerus in any way right from the start (which will obviously end up being a failed move, as someone WILL definitely trigger an angry reaction by Beerus, with the latter proceeding to KO everyone just as effortlessly as he did in BoG).
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Araki wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
You do realise that episode titles don't describe everything going on in the episode? Episode 2 talked about Vegeta and his family trip yet that lasted only half an ep and the other half was Whis and Beerus time.
Yeah, Toei's famous for doing that. He's talking as if the first episode was all about Satan deciding who should he give the award to, based on the title..
MaGyunia wrote:
Episodes 13 and 14, and possibly 15, will probably work mostly as rather smooth episodes just like the ones we got in-between the major arcs throughout DBZ
I'm actually expecting the time between BoG and RoF to be pretty important, as there are gaps to fill there. Goku going after Whis, Vegeta joining him and becoming SSG, the training, how they tapped into SSGSS the first time..
Maybe the RoF arc will last about 12 episodes too, but including those ones.
When I said that we should get the beginning of the Freeza arc by episode 16 I included those events in the arc itself (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to go off to train under Whis, and Freeza's training), which happened off-screen at some between BoG and Fukkatsu no F or indeed DURING Fukkatsu no F.
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Araki wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
You do realise that episode titles don't describe everything going on in the episode? Episode 2 talked about Vegeta and his family trip yet that lasted only half an ep and the other half was Whis and Beerus time.
Yeah, Toei's famous for doing that. He's talking as if the first episode was all about Satan deciding who should he give the award to, based on the title..
MaGyunia wrote:
Episodes 13 and 14, and possibly 15, will probably work mostly as rather smooth episodes just like the ones we got in-between the major arcs throughout DBZ
I'm actually expecting the time between BoG and RoF to be pretty important, as there are gaps to fill there. Goku going after Whis, Vegeta joining him and becoming SSG, the training, how they tapped into SSGSS the first time..
Maybe the RoF arc will last about 12 episodes too, but including those ones.
When I said that we should get the beginning of the Freeza arc by episode 16 I included those events in the arc itself (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to go off to train under Whis, how and why both Goku and Vegeta decide and manage to develop a further transformation by going Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and Freeza's training), which happened off-screen at some between BoG and Fukkatsu no F or indeed DURING Fukkatsu no F.
Blade wrote:
Mutation is just about the best word I've heard to describe Vegeta's huge power increase during Battle of Gods from an in-universe perspective. It plays ball with the established logic and the dreaded transformation multipliers, the rigidity of which should seem to make it nigh on impossible for Vegeta surpass Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 in either his Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 form.
A mutation is something unexpected and abnormal, an outlier, a freakish event or occurrence. It's perfect in the context,
It's precisely that level or rigidity that should make it impossible for Vegeta to surpass Goku without undergoing an actual, physical Super Saiya-jin transformation. Basically you defend the theory that it is indeed possible to go beyond the supposed limits "imposed" by a particular Super Saiya-jin stage in certain specific circumstances, such as an explosion of anger or other trigger, and you'll most likely be proven right.
However, I've always held the theory that there is indeed that level of rigidity to each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and a limit of power each stage can grant, rendering it impossible to become any stronger unless also undergoing another Super Saiya-jin transformation (namely the next in line), EXCEPT for the case of fusions, otherwise it would be impossible, for example, for Super Vegitto to be about twice as strong as Goku even without going Super Saiya-jin 3. The only exception to my theory was provided by the fusion technique, but there could be others, namely Vegeta's episode upon seeing Bulma getting it Beerus.
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[quote="Hujio"][quote="Chuquita"]Mutation's a weird word choice. Makes me think of ninja turtles, zombies, and rare diseases; not so much power-up transformation sequences.
Could someone please explain further about the "mutation" kanji?[/quote]
The kanji for "mutation" is ???? ([i]totsuzenhen'i[/i]). To break it down, it is comprised of ?? ([i]totsuzen[/i]), meaning "abrupt" or "sudden", and ?? ([i]hen'i[/i]), meaning "variation". So when combined in Japanese, it can be thought of as an "abrupt variation" in something, or as every dictionary you'll look it up in lists it, "mutation". In this case it's clearly referring to Vegeta's abrupt rage-induced beat-down of Beerus. Besides, "Vegeta's Furious Abrupt Variation" just sounds really weird and awkward, as much as it may make a little more sense. Also, I honestly have no idea where people are drawing this "he's going to go Super Saiyan 3" thing from, but I suppose it makes for more lively discussions.[/quote]
In my case, it's to have a particular theory proven or disproven on the power boosts and limits of power "imposed" by each Super Saiya-jin stage, as well as on the way the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin transformations work when compared to the other, "regular" Super Saiya-jin transformations.
I'm not going to explain the theory in-depth once again, as I've done it three times in more than one thread.
Again, in no way do I want to see Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, I've never been a fan of the physical characteristics of the transformation, especially when applied (if applied) to Vegeta.
But that's just my reason to have postulated the potential of having Vegeta become/become able to become Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper (and, in the movies' non-canon timeline, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
In my case it's not about wanting it to happen, it's about a possibility which I've always regarded as far-fetched, even after reading the names of the episodes yesterday and the word "mutation".
In all other cases, I believe postulating that scenario has to do with the fact that it's one of an interminable list of transformations or events fans would like to see happening and they've been fantasizing about for almost two decades. Not me.
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Araki wrote:
I'm actually expecting the time between BoG and RoF to be pretty important, as there are gaps to fill there. Goku going after Whis, Vegeta joining him and becoming SSG, the training, how they tapped into SSGSS the first time..
Maybe the RoF arc will last about 12 episodes too, but including those ones.
When I said that we should get the beginning of the Freeza arc by episode 16 I included those exact events, or gaps, as you call them, in the arc itself (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to go off to train under Whis, how and why both Goku and Vegeta decide and manage to develop a further transformation by going Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and Freeza's training), which happened off-screen at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F or indeed DURING Fukkatsu no F.
Hujio wrote:
The kanji for "mutation" is ???? (totsuzenhen'i). To break it down, it is comprised of ?? (totsuzen), meaning "abrupt" or "sudden", and ?? (hen'i), meaning "variation". So when combined in Japanese, it can be thought of as an "abrupt variation" in something, or as every dictionary you'll look it up in lists it, "mutation". In this case it's clearly referring to Vegeta's abrupt rage-induced beat-down of Beerus. Besides, "Vegeta's Furious Abrupt Variation" just sounds really weird and awkward, as much as it may make a little more sense. Also, I honestly have no idea where people are drawing this "he's going to go Super Saiyan 3" thing from, but I suppose it makes for more lively discussions.
In my case, it's to have a particular theory proven or disproven on the power boosts and limits of power "imposed" by each Super Saiya-jin stage, as well as on the way the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin transformations work when compared to the other, "regular" Super Saiya-jin transformations.
I'm not going to explain the theory in-depth once again, as I've done it three times in more than one thread.
Again, in no way do I want to see Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, I've never been a fan of the physical characteristics of the transformation, especially when applied (if applied) to Vegeta.
But that's just my reason to have postulated the potential of having Vegeta become/become able to become Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper (and, in the movies' non-canon timeline, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
In my case it's not about wanting it to happen, it's about a possibility which I've always regarded as far-fetched, even after reading the names of the episodes yesterday and the word "mutation".
In all other cases, I believe postulating that scenario has to do with the fact that it's one of an interminable list of transformations or events fans would like to see happening and they've been fantasizing about for almost two decades. Not me.
Blade wrote:
Mutation is just about the best word I've heard to describe Vegeta's huge power increase during Battle of Gods from an in-universe perspective. It plays ball with the established logic and the dreaded transformation multipliers, the rigidity of which should seem to make it nigh on impossible for Vegeta surpass Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 in either his Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 form.
A mutation is something unexpected and abnormal, an outlier, a freakish event or occurrence. It's perfect in the context,
It's precisely that level or rigidity that should make it impossible for Vegeta to surpass Goku without undergoing an actual, physical Super Saiya-jin transformation beyond SSJ2. Basically you defend the theory that it is indeed possible to go beyond the supposed limits "imposed" by a particular Super Saiya-jin stage in certain specific circumstances, such as an explosion of anger or other trigger, and you'll most likely be proven right.
However, I've always held the theory that there is indeed that level of rigidity to each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and a limit of power each stage can grant, rendering it impossible to become any stronger unless also undergoing another Super Saiya-jin transformation (namely the next in line), EXCEPT for the case of fusions, otherwise it would be impossible, for example, for Super Vegitto to be about twice as strong as Goku even without going Super Saiya-jin 3. The only exception to my theory was provided by the fusion technique, but there could be others, namely Vegeta's episode upon seeing Bulma getting hit by Beerus.
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Can't believe I found someone who shares the exact same list of three all-time favorite Dragonball characters in the same exact order: Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan. Wow. You must be an interesting guy.
Back on the discussion, when it's said in BoG (by Muten Roshi and by Vegeta himself at the end of the movie) that Vegeta "finally surpassed Goku" they're obviously referring to Goku at his strongest (at the time), as in, his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, not his strongest in the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage. At their respective Super Saiya-jin 2 stages, Goku and Vegeta are probably exactly on par, as shown by the toe-to-toe battle they had in the early Majin Buu arc after Vegeta let himself become possessed by Babidi.
I also believe there are different tendencies as to what the triggers are regarding the achievement of each Super Saiya-jin stage. The first is usually triggered by an explosion of anger (Goku over Freeza murdering Krillin in front of him, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his frustration at not being able to surpass Kakarotto, Gohan over... well, over himself being a pampered child, Bardock - although non-canon - over his frustration for not being able to match the power of Chilled/Freeza and avenge his lost comrades); it could be argued that the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage is achieved through intense training, and so is the stage of Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai; the Super Saiya-jin Full Power stage is achieved by a complete "mastery" of the regular Super Saiya-jin stage, balancing power/Ki output/stamina and becoming used to being in the stage without the typical physical strain and energy consumption, which probably demands an extremely gifted/talented Saiya-jin and a lot of work; the Super Saiya-jin 2 is where things start to differ, since Gohan achieved it through an explosion of anger (one of the numerous instances where he just lost it throughout the series, although in the Cell Games he retained a certain level of control when compared to other occurences), while both Goku and Vegeta arguably achieve it through intense training at some point in the 7 year period between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc; the Super Saiya-jin 3 is probably only achievable by a formidably gifted Saiya-jin after intensive training as well, and is indeed so overwhelmingly powerful that it causes a lot of strain on the body and has its own time limitations and restrictions.
As for the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages, I've been defending all along that they're rather separate events, achieved through entirely different means when compared to the other SSJ stages, which basically build upon the previous one. The Super Saiya-jin God especially is much more a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up than anything else, but taking into account the enormous and massive power levels of both Goku and Vegeta when they achieve it, the resulting power they output in the stage is absolutely fantastic, to the point of being able to challenge Beerus to some degree, as seen in BoG, whereas Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is most likely a complete mastery of the SSJG stage, beyond that of being able to use its power and abilities in the base form (seen in BoG and while they try to hit Whis), by adding the fighting stress and agressiveness typical of any SSJ stage, along with a slight power boost (again, just another theory).
The other theory I've been over-presenting recently on why part of me would like to see Vegeta go Super Saiya-jin 3 has to do with the way I've always theorized how the Super Saiya-jin transformations work in terms of the power boost they provide and what limits are "imposed" to each SSJ stage, and also in what exact way and to what extent the Super Saiya-jin God enhances the power of the Saiya-jin who undergoes the transformation (increasing the Saiya-jin's multiplying their MAXIMUM strength, instead of the strength of their base form - if that's the way the transformation works in terms of power boost, then for it to make sense that Vegeta is on par with Goku in Fukkatsu no F in their respective Super Saiya-jin God stages, then Vegeta's maximum power MUST be equal to that of Goku when NOT transformed into SSJG or SSJGSSJ, which means Super Saiya-jin 3, hence the whole thing about Vegeta going/being able to go Super Saiya-jin 3).
Again, personally it has absolutely nothing to do with how good I think it would look on him or how cool it would be, on the contrary. The Super Saiya-jin 3's physical characteristics have never appealed to me a lot, and I believe it would look especially bad on Vegeta, much worse than it does on Goku or Gotenks.
I've been over-presenting this theory and we've been over-discussing the Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta thing. Apart from my own personal theory, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that he could or should go Super Saiya-jin 3 apart from fans fantasizing over it for some reason. It didn't happen in BoG, and it almost certainly won't happen in the DBSuper version of his battle against Beerus either, and the whole "mutation" term present in the episode's title doesn't increase the possibility by that much either.
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Setting aside the whole over-debated Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta theory, the most important thing is that they give him (and indeed all the others, especially Piccolo and Gohan) the proper fighting time when charging on Beerus. Doesn't mean they should give him any trouble, that's one major thing they should never change when compared to BoG. In the series, Beerus should be able to knock all of them out as easliy, effortlessly and almost as quickly as he did in the movie, to further demonstrate just how enormous the gap is between his degree of power and that of ANYONE on Earth (even Goku, before he underwent the Super Saiya-jin God transformation). However, stretching the fights a little bit longer in DBSuper (especially Vegeta, who was already the one on Earth after Goku who lasted more than one or two blows to be KO'd and even had a second chance to go at Beerus) would not only please a large chunk of hardcore fans who viewed the fighting aspect and dynamics as one of the greatest things about DB and DBZ back in the 80's and 90's, it would also help them "fill" the episodes with something interesting rather than having the old Chi Chi or Muten Roshi routines, which have gotten old ages ago, all over again.
We've had enough of (re)introducing the main characters (except Piccolo, in my opinion, although I can understand that he only becomes a fundamental element when serious or menacing events occur), it's time for BOTH Beerus to display his enormous power AND for all the others to do so as well, despite the massive difference (like I said, displaying their trademark techniques against Beerus would be a good move - why not have Piccolo throw a Makankosappo at Beerus instead of having him throw only a kick?).
The way Piccolo is KO'd, for example, should also be maintained, though, as it demonstrates just how skillful a martial artist Beerus is, beyond sheer Ki and massive destructive force, but knocking Ultimate Gohan, one of the strongest fighters there ever was, out with a single kick to the stomach would seem disappointing to me. Since this is a series and not a movie, and consequently they don't have to deal with the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature, even a longer one, they MUST put more emphasis on the fighting aspect now that we're finally going to get down to it. Dragonball is humor, character development, awesome backgrounds and storylines, values, randomness, but it's also violence and fantastic fights, to the point of being unreal.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Setting aside the whole over-debated Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta theory, the most important thing is that they give him the proper fighting time when charging on Beerus.
A long fight is the one thing I want more then him going Ssj3 so hopefully they give him one that's longer and overall better then what he got in BOG and animated sparks for his Ssj2 would be welcomed as well.
But we should focus on tomorrow's episode first. Most of us are forgetting that we'll most likely be seeing more than half on an episode dedicated to the acquaintance between Goku and Beerus and their subsequent fight. We need to remember that in BoG the entire showdown in Kaiou-sama's planet from the moment Goku first charged Beerus until he was KO'd lasted one minute. Goku will probably be just as over-confident of his abilities - for good reasons, he's become one of the strongest fighters there ever was during the Majin Buu arc - and will show off as he presents each of his Super Saiya-jin transformations to Beerus and Whis. I hope he gets gradually more and more frustrated upon realizing just how strong Beerus really is while he tries to land a punch or kick on him, and I can't wait to see both how Beerus blocks/dodges/neutralizes his Kamehameha and how he KO's Goku (staying with the way shown in BoG would be a good idea, a single chop to the neck as a masterfully-applied pressure-point attack after which he walks away whistling would be fantastic, although we've already seen it).
I also hope that whatever makes finally Beerus lose it on Earth doesn't immediately lead to a full-attack that quickly/hastily as we saw in BoG. I mean, Beerus just shouted + powered up, had a skirmish with Majin Buu and sent him away flying, they shouldn't react so hastily as they did in the movie. He didn't do anything that would suggest he was supposed to be a menace (on the contrary, he blends in quite well with people he just met, even breakdancing and stuff). It was one of the poorly developed scenes in BoG, one which has the potential to be properly expanded upon and explored in the series, since they don't need to worry about the time.
I really can't wait to watch all of these fights. Goddamn it, finally we get down to serious fighting business. Shouldn't be anywhere close to what we saw throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, but if it's half that good, I'll still have an orgasm and watch it hundreds of times.
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coola wrote:
Personally, like i said in another post, i would love them to redo Freeza training, prodigy or not, going from 120.000.000 to over Super Buu in just 4 month is little too much, i will take anything, have Freeza don't know what month is, or place where time flies slower.
I've personally always found Freeza's ENORMOUS increase in power - regardless of him being a prodigy even within his own race or not - by Fukkatsu no F - as something that required a more in-depth explanation in order to be fully accepted by the hardcore fandom.
We're talking about a character who could be beaten by the lowest level of a Super Saiya-jin back on Namek in the Freeza arc. Since then, an interminable sequence of fighters overcoming each other and reaching entirely different stages of power have occurred throghout DBZ. Freeza, at his 100%, is defeated by Super Saiya-jin Goku, who is about as strong as Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks when he arrives, who happens to dispatch Freeza and his father with no effort whatsoever. By the Jinzouningen arc, that same Mirai no Trunks, and even Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who is arguably above him, have no chance against #17 and #18, let alone Cell in his second stage; Vegeta goes Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and yet again turns the tables in favor of the good guys by thrashing semi-perfect Cell, but is overwhelmed and easily KO'd by Perfect Cell, who in turn is no match for Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan; that same Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, although as an adult and presumably having lost a bit of power due to lack of training, is said (by Piccolo) to be BELOW both Super Saiya-jin 2 Majin Vegeta 2 and Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku, both of whom are no match for fat Majin Buu, who in turn is below ANY of the various forms taken by Super Buu and indeed Kid Buu, who is about in the leagues of Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku; none of these fighters have absolutely any chance against Super Vegitto, who's about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
I could have included a much higher number of fighters who are far, far more powerful than Freeza at his strongest, all of them throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs (not counting the movies, of course, as they're non-canon side-stories, but if we did we'd have to include the likes of, for example, Cooler, Brolly, Bio Brolly, Janenba, #13 and Bojack).
Understanding just how Freeza managed to overcome all of these gaps in such a short time and go from being someone who could by defeated by as early as the Freeza arc to someone with a level of power in the leagues of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta and Beerus (who all far surpass ANY of the fighters mentioned in the previous paragraph) is something I'd like to have explained to me at least in a more detailed way. They could, and most likely will, go for an argument along the lines of "he's just a prodigy even within his own race, he's a freak of nature, his power is immeasurable, etc., etc.), but if no satisfactory explanation is provided in the Freeza arc of DBSuper to account for Freeza's overcoming of ALL these numerous gaps, and I doubt it will, then I''ll just assume they partially hastily went for the concept of Freeza being a freak of nature with a theoretically endless power, in order to make him as much of a serious menace to Goku and Vegeta as possible even in terms of power and danger goes.
Overall, I think we all agree that BoG was better put together than Fukkatsu no F and was, all in all, a better movie, with better character development and backgrounds, with more humor without losing its degree of arguable seriousness and drama, with better fights, better animation, better characters and basically a far superior plot. I'm just not sure whether the series' depiction of the events in the respective Beerus and Freeza arcs within it are going to reflect that same difference in "quality", but since the basis is the same, I guess it will. The only advantage the events of Fukkatsu no F have over those of BoG is the fact that there are a number of off-screen events which "happened" between or during the movie itself that SHOULD and MUST be explored and be put on-screen in the Freeza arc (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Whis accepting to train both Goku and Vegeta, their decision to go further with yet another stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and Freeza's training).
One question which has struck my mind before regarding Freeza too: He appeared in numerous occasions in cameos throughout DBZ and in the movies either in filler or non-canon content, but when Fukkastu no F was released it was supposed and announced to be a direct canon continuation of BoG, which itself was also canon (none of which are so anymore, of course). Why the hell didn't they think of reviving him any sooner than this? Why did it take 14 years for them to conceive the idea of reviving Freeza, especially taking into account the fact that they do so easily in the movie? Freeza himself complains about the time it took them to revive him in the movie. :D
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You guys ready for some serious ass-kicking in a few hours by Hakaishin Beerus in a slightly stretched-out version of the fight in Kaiou-sama's planet in BoG? Hope you are, because that's what you're gonna get That's probably the event to which I've been most looking forward when it comes to the concept of the very "next episode" so far since DBSuper started running.
Also, always interesting to see just what slight (or major) modifications or small additions they throw here and there to fill the episode and stretch it out a bit longer, not only during the fight itself and other events dealing with other characters in the episode, but also how Kaiou-sama reacts to Beerus' presence, to Goku's way of introducing himself to him and his request to have Beerus show his power. I'd be fine both if they didn't change a thing in these events when compared to BoG and if they went for a slightly altered version.
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Doctor. wrote:
I'd be ready if I didn't know how it goes and wasn't expecting inferior animation compared to the movie. What's making me excited for episode 5 is Champa's potential appearance, because I'd be a lot more excited if I didn't watch BoG first.
Don't quite understand why you're getting your hopes high on Champa making his appearance already in episode 5. The picture we saw a few days ago was just half of the full image we had seen weeks before depicting the interaction between Champa and Beerus, nothing there suggests he should be showing up already in episode 5.
In fact, since he's most likely somehow connected to the 6th Universe, I'd say he'll only show up much later, indeed after the Freeza arc, when we move on to the 6th Universe arc (of which he could very well be the Hakaishin for, although there are other possible theories).
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Doctor. wrote:
I'd be ready if I didn't know how it goes and wasn't expecting inferior animation compared to the movie. What's making me excited for episode 5 is Champa's potential appearance, because I'd be a lot more excited if I didn't watch BoG first.
Don't quite understand why you're getting your hopes high on Champa making his appearance already in episode 5. The picture we saw a few days ago was just half of the full image we had seen weeks before depicting the interaction between Champa and Beerus, nothing there suggests he should be showing up already in episode 5.
In fact, since he's most likely somehow connected to the 6th Universe, I'd say he'll only show up much later, indeed after the Freeza arc, when we move on to the 6th Universe arc (of which he could very well be the Hakaishin for, although there are other possible theories).
But yeah, although it's pointless to discuss it now, I think we all agree that it would blow us away in a much more explosive fashion if DBSuper introduced ENTIRELY new villains, characters, stages and events right from the start. Retelling both BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs within DBSuper in the form of episodes has its own benefits but also quite a bit of disadvantages (we pretty much already know what's gonna happen, which a few minor changes and additions here and there).
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Doctor. wrote:
Champa already appears in chapter 2 of the manga, whilst Beerus and Goku are having their battle. So unless Toyotaro is doing his own thing, and Toei is animating stuff early just to show in one trailer, then it seems pretty unlikely that Champa won't appear in today's episode.
If that happens it could be regarded as an interesting development, as we would be presented to an ENTIRELY new character (in fact, two, counting Champa's attendant) as early as episode 5, which would suit me just fine as far as the rythym of the storyline progression goes.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I guess when the BOG arc is over then we will see what happens with the Z fighters before the ROF arc. I think we will find out on how Vegeta finally becomes a Super Saiyan God.
The exact same way Goku achieves the stage. If they go for the the exact Saiya-jin ritual seen in BoG or a slightly altered version of it (and I hope they don't), then at some point - and this NEEDS to be shown on-screen during DBSuper - I'd smile and laugh at everyone going around Vegeta holding hands while HE is the center of the attention this time, not Kakarotto.
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After getting beaten by Goku's Kaio-Ken x3 stage, and after witnessing his blood spilt, he basically loses it and probably loses the self-control and the ability to use his intelligence and rationality, he's far too much focused on the fight - and on the shocking fact he's losing, especially - to care about the Dragon Balls for quite a while, and he's certainly not thinking about immortality or Freeza at that particular point when he decides to fully power-up and charge his Gallic Gun.
However, he obviously retained just enough rationality to avoid committing suicide, so if the Gallic Gun indeed hit the Earth and completely destroyed it, he most likely knew that he would be able to escape death by either generating a barrier to keep the oxygen he needed to live in space (like many characters are shown to do throughout DBZ, including Saiya-jin, and indeed Vegeta) or by reaching his capsule fast enough to escape the planet after the destruction of its core, which would take its time to cause the eventual and inevitable explosion of the entire planet itself.
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I've been finding myself every Saturday night (9am in Japan actually represents 1am in Portugal) already having developed an entire routine to watch each new episode of DBSuper. As soon as it hits 10pm or 11pm, lights go out and its time to reach down the greatest recesses of Dragonball fandom once again, and now I get to do it every week.
I've even started to watch and actually pay attention to Fuji TV's early morning programs as some sort of weird (or not-so-weird) build-up to the episode itself.
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I've been finding myself every Saturday night (9am in Japan actually represents 1am in Portugal) already having developed an entire routine to watch each new episode of DBSuper. As soon as it hits 10pm or 11pm, lights go out and its time to reach down the greatest recesses of Dragonball fandom once again, and now I get to do it every week.
I've even started to watch and actually pay attention to Fuji TV's early morning programs as some sort of weird (or not-so-weird) build-up to the episode itself.
Bullza wrote:
So it's Goku vs Beerus the retelling in a few hours. Should give something more to talk about in this thread than last week at least.
I'm curious to know if the line about the Fusion not being enough will be kept in or not. Is Goku going to be just as helpless as he was in the movie or are they going to nerf Beerus?
We will soon find out.
I'm definitely positive that they're going to keep Goku light-years behind Beerus. It is a fundamental aspect of the plot to show just how enormous and unreachable the gap is between the likes of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (or any of his other stages) when compared to the power of Hakaishin Beerus.
That said, the fight will definitely be much longer (in BoG, Beerus KO's Goku in a matter of a minute), most likely more than half of the episode, and that's obviously a massively good reason to get hyped, since we'll finally get the proper fighting time we've been waiting for ever since the series debuted.
They'll indeed stretch it, with a few additions and changes here and there - maybe Goku's mention of fusion with Vegeta would be pointless as well against Beerus will be left out -, and Goku will grow more and more desperate as he finds out that not even when he gets serious and fights with all his might he just can land a single kick or punch in Beerus.
Although the fight will be, presumably, quite a bit longer when compared to that of the movie, in my view they shouldn't change the fact that Beerus blocks/overwhelms/dodges Goku's attacks as easily as he does in BoG and then KO's just as effortlessly (keeping the masterfully-applied pressure-point attack to the neck we've seen in BoG would be one thing they shoulndn't change).
Right now I just wanna see the fight itself, as I regard the awesome fighting aspect and dynamics of Dragonball to have been one of the major advantages the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ had, to the point of being (positively) uneral, but I'm also obviously curious about the immediate aftermath (will Beerus leave off whistling right after KO'ing Goku?; will Goku regain a slight degree of consciousness soon after and ponder on how Beerus actually was?; will he consider what Super Saiya-jin God is as well while beaten on the ground, and will he mention the fact that not even Fusion with Vegeta would work on Beerus?)
All of these should be complete within this episode, or maybe they could spill a little to the sixth, but the next one will definitely be already focused on Beerus' interactions with the ones on Earth.
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sintzu wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
sintzu wrote:
I think these are fake cause they go against the official episode titles that were released yesterday which don't include episode 9.
Look above you :P
I can't read Japanese but if you mean they're real cause they're in that link then why would ep7 be called "How Dare You Hit My Bulma!" if she doesn't get hit till ep8 ?
She'll probably get hit by Beerus in the very last moment of the episode and Vegeta subsequently losing it and undergoing a power boost without actually undergoing any physical transformation (other than normal Super Saiya-jin 2), ending that way (much in the same way a number of DB and DBZ episodes did), and episode 8 will begin with Vegeta charging Beerus for a while longer than he did in BoG.
The way they're presenting and describing the events in each of the episodes, especially from 5/6 onwards seems to be being done in a much closer light when compared to what happened in BoG. Maybe it will feel like watching the movie all over again, but I'm sure we'll get all sorts of small modifications and additions to compensate for that potentially disappointing feeling.
Describing Goku as "just might having a way to find a Super Saiya-jin God" leaves me automatically to think that they'll indeed go and call Shenlong to ask him what/who Super Saiya-jin God is, leading to Shenlong's explanation of the ritual underwent by the original SSJG on Planet Vegeta, which pretty much would mean that they'll go for the exact same ritual, either dropping the number of Saiya-jin needed by one or by changing it when compared to BoG by having Pan already conceived at this point, which would have repercussions in her age and the last 3 episodes of DBZ, but let's not discuss that all over again.
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Little over half an hour to go. Wonder if Beerus will be as polite towards Goku as he was in BoG while introducing to him. He's generally polite despite his massive power and destructive tendencies (a bit like Freeza, in that regard), and he even always uses "boku" when referring to himself, which is a pretty well-mannered and well-spoken, rather polite way of addressing others. I hope he keeps that and that's one of the things they shouldn't change in DBSuper's version of the acquaintance + fight when compared to BoG.
Going back to the whole Beerus being deemed "evil" or "good" we discussed a few days ago, one additional thing: you've never seen Freeza, Cell or any other major psychotic, megalomaniacal super-villain apologize for hitting someone and causing a fuss like Beerus did at the end of the movie. He's not a villain, nor a good guy. He's not "evil", nor is he "good", he's no one's ally, he has a mission and just does it. He's probably so strange an entity that his concept of "evil" or "wrongdoing" and "righteousness" is entirely different to him, or not understood at all as it is with regular, emotional beings.
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Can't wait to go through the entire experience YET again of watching it at the same exact time as all of you. The opening them doesn't leave my head and the episode itself, regarding its content, will be by far the most entertaining/serious one in the fighting department so far in DBSuper. Goddamn it, I love this.
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Bullza wrote:
How much trouble do I get in if I ask if someone can PM me a link to the stream to watch it? :lol:
Jesus, man, use Google. It might take you a few minutes to find one, but don't give up and you'll eventually find one working in perfect conditions.
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13 minutes to go.
Get your ass ready to be kicked, Goku. Hakaishin Beerus is coming!
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First thoughts:
- The acquaintance interaction between Beerus and Goku went along the EXACT same lines (and I do mean literally same exact "lines")
- The fight did indeed take up more than half of the episode
- Beerus did block the Kamehameha. I was curious how he would do it. He blocked it with a single finger.
- The major hole was created by the Kamehameha, not by a massively powerful punch.
- Just as we thought, he charged Beerus in each of his Super Saiya-jin stages and was unable to land a single kick or punch on him, even in his maximum, Super Saija-jin 3 stage, but that was just to be expected. They should have never change the way Beerus effortlessly dodges Goku's single charge and attack on him in this fight at Kaiou-sama's place.
- Gregory did speak for the first time.
- The way he was KO'd showed that Beerus (not exactly the same, but similar to the masterfully-applied pressure-point attacked to the neck in the movie), although letting the fight last much longer than it did in BoG, was much more serious and less humorous and laid-back as he showed himself to be during this interaction in BoG.
- He did mention the possibility of Fusion with Vegeta, stating that even that would probably be not enough to beat Beerus (just like in BoG), and furthermore seems to ponder what Beerus said about the "Super Saiya-jin God" right upon regaining consciousness.
- Glad that the sparking blue electricity was remember when Goku goes Super Saiya-jin 2, although the way it flows is not the same in terms of rythym and quickness as we've seen in Gohan (Cell Games), Goku and Vegeta (Majin Buu arc).
- In the preview for episode 6, Yamcha is shown "slapping" Beerus in a friendly manner (for those of you Yamcha lovers) and Vegeta is shown falling :lol:
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Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Horrible animation aside, please tell me we got Champa this episode?
Why would we? There was absolutely nothing to suggest he would show up this soon. He's most likely connected in some way to the 6th Universe, so it makes sense that he'll show up only after the Freeza arc when we get to explore the 6th Universe, as he's most likely its Hakaishin (although there are other possibilities).
I see all of you complaining about the animation. It was indeed terrible, especially when compared to the movie, but even to the other episodes, but I can't call this the least enjoyable episode of DBSuper so far, because I value content more than I do visuals.
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Bullza wrote:
Well it played out similar to the movie except he didn't punch a whole through it now he used a Kamehameha instead. Not sure if the Fusion line was there or not.
It was. He said exactly the same thing as in BoG. "Not even a Fusion with Vegeta would probably be enough for a guy like that", something along these lines.
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
TripleRach wrote:
As far as the animation goes, whoa guys. This isn't the end of the world. :crazy:
Not the end of the world, but you gotta admit, that was some pretty horrible animation. Some of the scenes looked like they drew them with their feet, or grabbed someone from the mail room to fill in for the key animator while he was on lunch break.
Especially taking into account these two facts:
- It's 2015, Dragonball should be getting AWESOME animation in every single second of every single of its episodes, period.
- This was arguably the most-anticipated event so far in DBSuper, it was the first real big fight, and it turns out to be drawn and animated in something close to horrible/shameful. They could have saved the crappy animation for insignificant events, if they really have to "choose".
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No need to cry in a corner or think this is the end of the world just because we've had a somewhat major setback with next-to-horrible/shameful animation in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far. And no need to organize as fans against Toei either, that won't produce any effects.
I'm obviously disappointed with the quality of the animation during the fight, it was indeed awful, I concede that, but, like I said, I value the content more than I do the visuals. With that said, I do hope that this doesn't happen again and that in the fights everyone will have against Beerus on Earth in the following episodes won't be animated along these lines, otherwise I may actually start to get disappointed, frustrated and pissed.
This isn't some cheap cartoon. This is Dragonball and it's 2015, for f***'s sake. Was it really necessary to throw such unsatisfactory animation our way in such an anticipated fight?
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Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Especially taking into account these two facts:
- It's 2015, Dragonball should be getting AWESOME animation in every single second of every single of its episodes, period.
- This was arguably the most-anticipated event so far in DBSuper, it was the first real big fight, and it turns out to be drawn and animated in something close to horrible/shameful. They could have saved the crappy animation for insignificant events, if they really have to "choose".
Unfortunately, animation is not cheap, a single episode is worth at least over $145000 (not sure how much i changed in 2015).
In regards to animation, what i see many complaining is only characters being off model in certain shots/sequence (as i do), taking that out of the way animation was at least fluid, so not really bad.
I never said anything about it being "cheap", I said "crappy".
Dude, in some of the shots Goku's face looks like a f***** Pokemon drawn by a child. And again, this comes from a guy who values content more than visuals.
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You've been posting pictures depicting shots from episodes drawn by multiple animation teams. It's pretty obvious for someone with two fully functioning eyes, especially someone who is a DBZ fan and presumably watched the episodes over and over again for years, that there are over 10 animation teams for DB + DBZ, which work on the episodes on an alternate basis (as in, there's "animation team A", which is pretty bad, "animation team B", which is fantastic but the characters don't move too much, "animation team C", which is horrible, "animation team D", which is gorgeous, and so on and so on). They worked in a basis of: episode 1 - animation team A; episode 2 - animation team B; episode 3 - animation team C; 4 - animation team D; episode 5 - animation team A; episode 6 - animation team B; episode 7 - animation team C, etc., etc.
The animation team behind episode 96, of which you posted a picture of Super Saiya-jin Goku earlier, was the same team of episodes 1, 5, 26, 45, 53, 55, 62, 79, 83, 85, 118, 128, 132, 145, 149, 161, 178, 180 and so on.
My favorite animation team(s) regarding how good the episodes/characters/animation/fights look are the one seen in episodes 4, 25, 31, 81, 87, 125, 130, 166, 179, 268 and so on, and the one used in episodes 21, 28, 34 or 64, and the one used in episodes 142 and 164. The one used in episode 162 (Vegeta's Final Flash) is also used in a number of episodes during the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, and it's pretty good (it's the one responsible for episode 147 too, for example).
The REAL horrible animation team was the one behind episodes 6, 28, 33, 46, 51, 66, 80, 84, 94, 104, 116, 126, 131, 144, 148, 158, 163, 167, 175, 289, and so on.
Take a look at all these examples of episodes again and you'll see what I mean by all of these animation teams working in the episodes on an alternate basis, it's pretty obvious that they could only use REAL good animation for a few episodes, and had to have rather cheap animation for about the other half of the episodes in the entirety of DBZ.
I've noticed the different animation behind the episodes on an alternate basis since I was a small child. Each animation team was responsible for each episode in its totality. From one episode to the next, the difference is quite often huge. But all of these were OBVIOUSLY working on an alternate basis on the episodes, and each of them possessed their own specific and easily identifiable characteristics in terms of drawing/movement.
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Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
MaGyunia wrote:
Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
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Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
Draconic wrote:
I don't mind the animation as much as I do the shitty (and mostly non-existent) fight choreography. After Goku turns SSJ3 it kinda picks up a little, but nothing but dodging and kicking at the air in previous SSJ stages really feels like it's filling space. It kinda defeats the purpose of doing it. If Goku can't do anything to Beerus is SSJ3, we can tell he can't in weaker forms. They should have at least do something more versatile. But no, same kick-dodge-repeat routine for almost 15 minutes.
The music when Beerus and SSJ3 Goku start talking (after Goku backs down, I think) sounded really nice.
Overall, I liked the episode. Or at least, didn't mind it. It did give a little depth to some things from the movie, after all.
Exactly, the way they move around was so lacking in movement and choreography that it looked like I was watching some f****** cartoon or something. What the hell was that? That's Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku against Hakaishin Beerus, for f****'s sake, there should be super-speed movements, stuff blowing up and rocks flying all over the place at each blow and instance of Goku trying to hit Beerus. It looked like a 2D video game from the late 80's or early 90's. Utterly ridiculous and disappointing. I won't watch this version of the fight between Goku and Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet again, whenever I want to watch that I'll go for the BoG version, even if it's just 1 minute long. They better not throw the same garbage animation and lack of movement/choreography at us when all the others on Earth have their go at Beerus (especially Piccolo and Vegeta, who'll get quite a large number of minutes of battle), if they f*** that up like they did this fight I'll officially become pissed off for the very first time at DBSuper and anything Dragonball-related for many years.
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MaGyunia wrote:
Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
Draconic wrote:
I don't mind the animation as much as I do the shitty (and mostly non-existent) fight choreography. After Goku turns SSJ3 it kinda picks up a little, but nothing but dodging and kicking at the air in previous SSJ stages really feels like it's filling space. It kinda defeats the purpose of doing it. If Goku can't do anything to Beerus is SSJ3, we can tell he can't in weaker forms. They should have at least do something more versatile. But no, same kick-dodge-repeat routine for almost 15 minutes.
The music when Beerus and SSJ3 Goku start talking (after Goku backs down, I think) sounded really nice.
Overall, I liked the episode. Or at least, didn't mind it. It did give a little depth to some things from the movie, after all.
Exactly, the way they move around was so lacking in movement and choreography that it looked like I was watching some f****** cartoon or something. What the hell was that? That's Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku against Hakaishin Beerus, for f****'s sake, there should be super-speed movements, stuff blowing up and rocks flying all over the place at each blow and instance of Goku trying to hit Beerus. It looked like a 2D video game from the late 80's or early 90's. Utterly ridiculous and disappointing. I won't watch this version of the fight between Goku and Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet again, whenever I want to watch that I'll go for the BoG version, even if it's just 1 minute long. They better not throw the same garbage animation and lack of movement/choreography at us when all the others on Earth have their go at Beerus (especially Piccolo and Vegeta, who'll get quite a large number of minutes of battle), if they f*** that up like they did this fight I'll officially become pissed off for the very first time at DBSuper and anything Dragonball-related for many years.
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Sorry, I screwed up, I meant to update the first post and ended up posting a new one. It was a mistake, I didn't mean to do it, and I can't seem to be able to delete any of them.
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TripleRach wrote:
You can't delete your post unless it's the most recent one in the thread. I fixed it, but I'd rather not make a habit of it. Remember the power of the "preview" button, and the thread display below.
No danger of turning something which has happened for the first time just now, only once, into a habit. Thank you.
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I think we all need to calm down a bit and rationalize this. The animation was indeed awful and it was all the more disappointing because it just "happened" to be used for the most anticipated moment in DBSuper so far, and in a major fight between two of the main characters in the series (if not THE two main characters).
But there's no need to start lashing out at Toei and postulate that Dragonball is over. It WAS over, series and movies-wise, after GT was done back in 1997. It took 11 years to get another movie/special/series, and we've been pretty satisfied and hyped with the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and up until now we've had only minor complaints about DBSuper over a few things dealing with different aspects of the series (not only animation, much more about storyline and time placement, etc.).
In retrospective, and if everything goes well from now on most of the times in terms of animation, we'll look at this episode as a disappointing one from the point of view of animation, but just one among dozens. Just a minor setback, nothing to cause us to foresee THE END OF DRAGONBALL or something like that. Chill out. Put things into perspective. No need to freak out.
Besides, if you're going to start off watching DBSuper's episodes believing that they'll have the same quality from ANY point of view when compared to the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, you're in for a major disappointment, and you should have known this since a long time ago. DB and DBZ are untouchable, that's 80's and 90's fantastic stuff, DBSuper needs no be looked from an entirely different perspective for a number of different reasons. You need to adapt to the times and HOPE that the creators of DBSuper also KNOW how to adapt DBSuper to the times and make it something that can be called a worthy follow-up to DBZ in its own particular and specific way, which, for example, GT failed miserably to be (for different reasons, though).
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
More lovable images.
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DERP, DERPITY DERP.
I'm past the point of being disappointed/angry, I actually laughed at these. This is so ridiculously badly animated and drawn that it's literally laughable.
What the F*** is this? A cartoon? Looks like it was drawn by a 4-year old DBZ-"fan" child in.
Literally, this looks like children's drawings, holy shit :x
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[quote="sintzu"][quote="MaGyunia"]
In retrospective, and if everything goes well from now on most of the times in terms of animation
Besides, if you're going to start off watching DBSuper's episodes believing that they'll have the same quality from ANY point of view when compared to the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, you're in for a major disappointment, and you should have known this since a long time ago.DB and DBZ are untouchable, that's 80's and 90's fantastic stuff.
You need to adapt to the times
and HOPE that the creators of DBSuper also KNOW how to make it something that can be called a worthy follow-up to DBZ.[/quote]
We'll be able to get a better idea about the series' future by the end of the arc so hopefully things go well moving foreword.
Why shouldn't we expect that ? it's 2015,the animation and fight choreography should be leaps ahead of what we had back in the 80's&90's.
Being adapted to the times is exactly why a lot of us are unhappy with this episode,we're used to things improving over the years,not getting worse.
We all hope that's what they'll do but if this is any indication to what we're going to get moving foreword then they should go back to making movies.[/quote]
I understand where you're coming from, and I did express my dismay and anger towards the fact that this is 2015, and that Dragonball should by now literally have AWESOME animation in every single second of every single episode at this point, but we need to be optimistic and believe this was just a temporary screw-up of an episode which won't last long in our memories. I don't give a shit if the show is intended to reach a new, younger audience. It's the OLD, ANCIENT hardcore DBZ fans they should care most about, the ones in their 30s like me, who watched it as it aired in the 80's and 90's.
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Don't get started on the whole Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta again, please. We've over-debated that stuff to death in the last few days and I won't repeat myself on why I would partially like to have it happen while at the same time finding the very concept outdated/obsolete (besides the fact it would look awful on Vegeta, regardless of the clothes he wears).
But there are reasons for the theory of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3, or at least becoming ABLE to go Super Saiya-jin 3 (in the movies' timeline, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and in the series' timeline, either during or slightly after the Beerus arc). If you want the theory search through my posts both in this thread and in others, I won't repeat it, I'm honestly tired of the discussion.
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Lord Freeza wrote:
I cant believe how arrogant Goku is in this episode. He's had his odd moments of being a little cocky or overconfident over the years but he's behaving almost as bad as Vegeta back in the day.
I don't quite see the point in Goku ATTACKING Beerus in his Super Saiya-jin and Super Saiya-jin 2 stages, to be honest. In the movie he merely displays all stages but only charges at his maximum, Super Saiya-jin 3 stage (despite arrogantly telling Beerus he can go back to SSJ2, if he wanted/if it was too much for him).
The only reason I can think of is that Goku is just unaware of exactly just how Beerus is strong. He's told by Kaiou-sama that even the Kaioshin are terrified of him, but that doesn't tell him that there's such a huge gap between his degree of power and that of Beerus, who's in a different dimension altogether. Besides, he can't sense godly Ki, either, so he literally has close to no idea of how powerful Beerus is, he merely knows that he's stronger than the Kaioshin (who are far below himself as a Super Saiya-jin 3 too). As far as Goku knows before he fights Beerus, Beerus could be in the leagues of fat Majin Buu, Kid Buu or one of the variants of Super Buu, most of which he would be able to defeat, or even lower than that, which would allow him to beat him even in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage.
He should have showed off each stage, just like he did in BoG and to fat Majin Buu and Babidi, and he was quite indeed over-confident. Every time he's like that he ends up getting a major ass-kicking (Piccolo Daimao, Mr. Popo, Freeza, Beerus), but at least he has a high level of pride and desire to overcome his own limits and those of all others, and quickly regains his composure, just like Vegeta.
Beerus, on the other hand, was much more serious and less laid-back both throughout the fight AND in his ultimate way of KO'ing Goku. If one wasn't aware of his real character, if one hadn't seen BoG, we could postulate that he's closer to a villain than he actually is. In the movie's version of the fight, he's pretty laid-back and smiles all the time, and even after KO'ing Goku with a single masterfully-applied pressure-point attack delivered to the neck, he walks away smiling, while in the series' version, he's much more to-the-point and goes as far as coming off as a narcissistic maniac with what he says about himself seconds before knocking Goku out. It goes well along with his depictions in the other previous episodes of DBSuper, which present him in a much more mysterious/chilling/ominous light.
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Literally, this looks like children's drawings, holy shit :x
Maybe it was bring your kid to work day :lol:
Not funny, dude. I did laugh, but it was more a tragic/comedic laugh than anything else. This is serious shit, this kind of animation better not happen anymore (or at least no more than once in every 6 ou 7 episodes, at most) throughout DBSuper. I mean, it's really, REALLY bad. We wouldn't be complaining this much if it weren't. It really is bad. And, again, this is coming from a guy who thinks himself as rational and optimistic and values content/character development over visuals.
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foxfang4 wrote:
I know that I'm the millionth person noticing the bad animation, but my question is...how is this possible?
This is the most iconic anime series in history. And today's episode had some of the worst animation in the franchise's history. In 2015. :shock:
How? How is it possible that no one at TOEI saw this before airing and said: "This is embarrassing."
Actually, to be more of a purist, there were animation teams working on episodes on an alternate basis throughout DB and DBZ who delivered EMBARASSINGLY bad animation, much worse than this. The point is, that's understandable, it was back in the 80's and 90's. This is 2015.
I guess that either they noticed it and didn't give a shit, hoping the fans wouldn't notice or mind too much about it - WRONG - or, more likely a scenario, they just don't have time at the pace things are proceeding forward to go back and undo the damage before it was too late.
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Doctor. wrote:
At least the episode had some nice shots here and then.
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Screenshots courtesy of Ajay.
Not the best thing in the world, but I was just happy to see they were on-model for once.
The thing is that it's not just about the instances of embarrassingly bad animation, it's also about the movement. At some point when Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 2 was trying to hit Beerus, as I was watching it, I couldn't believe my eyes, it felt like I was watching a cheap 2D game from the late 80's or early 90's. Fighting movement and choreographics are a fundamental part of DBZ's fantastic appeal. There's values, there's friendship, there's character development and background, there's storyline, there are good plots, there's violence and drama, but the visuals during the fights are EXTREMELY important, especially for male hardcore DBZ fans who have followed the franchise almost every single day since their childhood, like me.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I think some people are being way too harsh on Super so far. It's too early to say that Super is better or worst then GT. We still haven't seen the original stories that Toriyama wrote for Super yet.
We're not judging - at least I'm not - the entire series, as we've only seen 5 episodes of it so far. We're judging what we saw, and what we saw was a HORRIBLY animated sequence which just happened to be used in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, in a fight between arguably the two most important characters in the series. Have you seen some of the stills taken from the episode? How can you NOT be AT LEAST be dissatisfied with it, not to mention the lack of proper/decent fighting movement/choreography?
I'm an optimistic guy and I quickly regain my rationalization capabilities shortly after a shock when I've had enough time to absorb stuff and to do so, but this was just inexcusable. I'm not talking about the content or the storyline at all, we're focusing entirely on the visuals and the animation point of view, and most of the episode was just a disaster to the point of reaching the borders of ridiculousness and tragic laughability. Were they hoping we wouldn't notice, or wouldn't mind?
GT being better or worse than DBSuper will be so for entirely different reasons, it won't have anything to do with animation. GT's animation of its episodes was done exactly the same way it was done for DB and DBZ, with numerous animation teams working on the episodes on an alternate basis. GT will still be worse than DBSuper simply because it's so bad for so many reasons that virtually anything done after over a decade of inactivity will be better from ANY perspective. And no, I won't list or detail the reasons GT was a complete disaster again, I think it's been over-debated throughout the years.
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Chiki wrote:
Come on guys, the incessant whining is getting boring. Yes the animation sucks, there's nothing you can do so deal with it.
It's been less than a day since we were exposed to it, by tomorrow or, at most, by the day after tomorrow the "whining", as you call it, will be mostly over and we'll move on to discuss the next episode and other issues, don't worry about that. Everything wrong to point out about the animation of this episode has already been pointed out, so the "debate" will reach the saturation point very soon.
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IGhostUlt wrote:
Why didn't they just reuse the animation from the bog movie?
Because it would be lazy. If that was the logic behind it they could very well just throw us the entire extended version of the movie untouched and sliced between episodes. If they're RETELLING the story of the movie with a few modifications and additions here and there, they ought to redo it entirely, from beginning to end (in fact, we even complained about them using the footage of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs Kid Buu in the first episode and the footage of Cell blowing up in Kaiou-sama's planet in the third one and most of us regarded it as lazy).
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
Image
The evolution has evolved LOL.
Ok, I laughed my ass off again. In a tragic/comedic way, of course. There's nothing to laugh about here, to be honest. This was a serious fuck-up. They better not repeat this and disgrace the much-anticipated upcoming fights and events with this absurd animation and (lack of) fighting choreography. I hope they realized what they've done, and the degree of seriousness of it. I'd be ok if they used this animation in one episode out of every 6 or 7, or something like that, though, just like we had to "put up" with horribly animated episodes throughout DB and DBZ in every 5 or 6 episodes.
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JacobYBM wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Ok, I laughed my ass off again. In a tragic/comedic way, of course. There's nothing to laugh about here, to be honest. This was a serious fuck-up. They better not repeat this and disgrace the much-anticipated upcoming fights and events with this absurd animation and (lack of) fighting choreography. I hope they realized what they've done, and the degree of seriousness of it. I'd be ok if they used this animation in one episode out of every 6 or 7, or something like that, though, just like we had to "put up" with horribly animated episodes throughout DB and DBZ in every 5 or 6 episodes.
Dragon Ball Super isn't being made for people with taste, it's being made for the lowest common denominator who don't think about why it is they like a work or what endears it to them.
Granted, but I don't really give a s*** who the target audience of the show is or to whom it is mostly directed towards. There is a huge volume of hardcore DBZ fans who, like me, are in their 30s and just happened to be fans of Dragonball since their childhood and spent the last two decades following the franchise and watching the episodes hundreds of times almost on a daily basis. Like I said, the complaining and "whining" over the animation/fighting choreography of episode 5 will be over by tomorrow or, at most, the day after tomorrow; we'll move on to discuss the next episode and other issues quite soon. We're just still in a bit of a shock and we're here to express our opinions on what can only be called an EMBARASSINGLY animated sequence which just happened to be used on the most anticipated event in DBSuper until now, in a fight between arguably the most important characters in the series.
I'm an optimistic guy and I regain my rationalizing capabilities shortly after a shock like this, and, again, I also happen to value the quality of the plot, storyline, character development and background a lot more than I do visuals, but the fighting aspect and dynamics were a fundamental part of what made the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so utterly fantastic. This screw-up was beyond the animation aspect, it had to with the movement of Goku and Beerus while fighting and with the (lack of) choreography. It was just a disaster, it reminded me of of 2D games back from the late 80's or early 90's, or a cheap cartoon. That's just NOT acceptable for Dragonball, sorry. We have every right to be pissed off, at least for a while.
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
I never thought in a millions years I'd actually be laughing at Dragon Ball in a mocking way. Making Jokes at how horrendous it has gotten.
This will be constant throughout most of the fights, that's a 95% Guarantee. I knew this would happen, I knew this would be an issue for the fights.
And since I'm not even a fan of all this digital coloring and animation, it just makes it even worse for me. THIS IS NOT HOW DRAGON BALL SHOULD BE. IT'S GIVING THE SERIES A BAD NAME. I'D PREFER IT IF IT STAYED DEAD THAN OFFER UP THIS SHIT. THE VIDEO GAMES CUT-SCENES ARE GALLONS BETTER. TOEI GO HOME BECAUSE YOU'RE DRUNK.
Calm down, first of all.
I'm also finding myself laughing (although in a tragic way) in a mocking manner on Dragonball-related material for the first time in my life, but I just couldn't hold it in when I saw some of the stills posted throughout this thread.
You don't need to jump to the conclusion that Dragonball is over and should be left "dead" just because we were just exposed to a horribly animated episode. We shouldn't even judge the entirety of DBSuper just because of the animation/lack of fighting choreography in this episode. Like I said before, I'd be ok if this type of animation is used in DBSuper once in every 6 or 7 episodes, much in the same way we had to "put up" with horrible animation every now and then typical of each animation team throughout DB and DBZ in a number of episodes, once in every 5 or 6 episodes (I actually made an incomplete list in a post many pages before this one in this thread).
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
I never thought in a millions years I'd actually be laughing at Dragon Ball in a mocking way. Making Jokes at how horrendous it has gotten.
This will be constant throughout most of the fights, that's a 95% Guarantee. I knew this would happen, I knew this would be an issue for the fights.
And since I'm not even a fan of all this digital coloring and animation, it just makes it even worse for me. THIS IS NOT HOW DRAGON BALL SHOULD BE. IT'S GIVING THE SERIES A BAD NAME. I'D PREFER IT IF IT STAYED DEAD THAN OFFER UP THIS SHIT. THE VIDEO GAMES CUT-SCENES ARE GALLONS BETTER. TOEI GO HOME BECAUSE YOU'RE DRUNK.
They should just use the same animation/team as wrath of the Dragon. Movies 12,13 were flawless.
Agreed. Just look how fucking gorgeous these gifs are.
Spoiler:View
The animation used in the 13 Movies was quite different and parallel when compared to the numerous specific animation teams used throughout the episodes of DB and DBZ, which worked on the episodes on an alternate basis. You can't really expect an entire series of episodes to be composed of visuals animated with the quality of Movie 12 or Movie 13 (or indeed, other movies as well). That was arguably the top of the top. There was a lot of emphasis put on the visual aspect in the 13 Movies made back in the 90's while DBZ was running (as opposed to the weak plots and character backgrounds, in most cases).
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jjgp1112 wrote:
VintageSaiyan wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
See? I told you. But no one listened to me. This is the kind of quality you should expect to be in the future's episodes, especially if this show goes for a long time. As proven once again, Toei doesn't give a single damn about Dragon Ball, just like it didn't about Sailor Moon. This the repeat of story once again. I was right after all.
Not only won't they not listen, but bring up excuses like comparing it to the worst of Z which was animated over 2 decades ago and CONTINUE to defend this garbage.
There's a difference between defensing it and calling out fans overreactionary tendencies that usually results in blindly propping up the past. Look at the side by side comparison on this page, for example. One is among the very best bits of animation in the original series placed against an in-between shot from one episode. I could just as easily take a shot from a Uchiyama or Ebisawa episode and say "Dragon Ball looks like shit whether it's 1996 or 2015." People with pre-ordained agendas are coming in and making very skewed findings to favor whatever their viewpoint is.
One episode is poorly animated and people are acting like this is the fall of Dragon Ball as we know it. Imagine if there was a Kanzenshuu for the original run. The reactions to every Last House and Studio Live episodes would be hilarious. Some people are forgetting that Dragon Ball has never had consistently good animation, so acting like this is unacceptable by Dragon Ball standards is rather questionable considering some of the crap the show has pumped out in the past:
Image
Image
Image
I'm neither disrespecting the original or defending the present. I'm saying it is what it is.
These are exactly the examples of what I listed and detailed a few pages ago on two of the animation teams behind the episodes of DB and DBZ. They're clearly and easily identifiable to anyone with two pairs of fully functional eyes. The last two shots of Vegeta are from episode 51, which is one example of the WORST animation team behind episodes throughout DB and DBZ (the one responsible for episodes 6, 27, 46, 66, 148, 175, 189, just to name a few). I actually made an incomplete list of the episodes animated by each animation team earlier in this thread.
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Sorry for (yet) another huge post, but this is just to illustrate what I've been talking about regarding the different animation teams clearly present in the episodes throughout DB and DBZ in a alternate/rotating basis:
Piccolo Jr. arc:
Episode 137 - Animation team A (simple, not particularly detailed, but good for fighting sequences (Piccolo vs #17, Cell vs Gohan)
Episode 138 - Animation team B (horribly drawn characters, far too many triangular-like lines)
Episode 139 - Animation team C (extremely detailed and well-drawn lines, fast movement)
Episode 140 - Animation team A
Episode 141 - Animation team D (decent drawing, excellent movement during fights, tendency for too many lines in the faces and other parts of the body)
Episode 143 - Animation team E (my personal favorite, fantastic fighting, strong and bulky lines, incredible style)
Episode 144 - Animation team A
Episode 145 - Animation team B
Episode 146 - Animation team C
Episode 147 - Animation team A
Episode 148 - Animation team D
Saiya-jin arc:
Episode 1 - Animation team A
Episode 2 - Animation team D
Episode 3 - Animation team F (decent drawing and lining, but lack of movement)
Episode 4 - Animation team E
Episode 5 - Animation team A
Episode 6 - Animation team B
Episode 7 - Animation team C
Episode 8 - Animation team A
Episode 11 - Animation team E
Episode 21 - Animation team C
Episode 22 - Animation team A
Episode 23 - Animation team D
Episode 24 - Animation team F
Episode 25 - Animation team E
Episode 26 - Animation team A
Episode 27 - Animation team B
Episode 28 - Animation team C
Episode 29 - Animation team A
Episode 30 - Animation team D
Episode 31 - Animation team E
Episode 32 - Animation team A
Episode 33 - Animation team B
Episode 34 - Animation team C
Episode 35 - Animation team A
Freeza arc:
Episode 45 - Animation team A
Episode 46 - Animation team B
Episode 47 - Animation team E
Episode 48 - Animation team C
Episode 49 - Animation team A
Episode 50 - Animation team F
Episode 51 - Animation team B
Episode 52 - Animation team F
Episode 53 - Animation team A
Episode 54 - Animation team E
Episode 55 - Animation team A
Episode 56 - Animation team B
Episode 57 - Animation team F
Episode 58 - Animation team E
Episode 61 - Animation team B
Episode 62 - Animation team A
Episode 63 - Animation team E
Episode 64 - Animation team C
Episode 65 - Animation team F
Episode 66 - Animation team B
Episode 67 - Animation team A
Episode 68 - Animation team E
Episode 69 - Animation team F
Episode 71 - Animation team B
Episode 72 - Animation team A
Episode 73 - Animation team F
Episode 74 - Animation team A
Episode 75 - Animation team B
Episode 76 - Animation team E
Episode 78 - Animation team F
Episode 79 - Animation team A
Episode 80 - Animation team B
Episode 81 - Animation team E
Episode 82 - Animation team F
Episode 83 - Animation team A
Episode 84 - Animation team B
Episode 85 - Animation team A
Episode 86 - Animation team F
Episode 87 - Animation team E
Episode 88 - Animation team A
Episode 91 - Animation team F
Episode 92 - Animation team A
Episode 93 - Animation team E
Episode 94 - Animation team B
Episode 96 - Animation team A
Episode 97 - Animation team F
Episode 98 - Animation team E
Episode 99 - Animation team B
Episode 100 - Animation team A
Episode 101 - Animation team F
Episode 102 - Animation team A
Episode 103 - Animation team E
Episode 104 - Animation team B
Episode 105 - Animation team A
Episode 106 - Animation team F
Jinzouningen arc:
Episode 118 - Animation team A
Episode 119 - Animation team E
Episode 120 - Animation team G (Strong and thick lines, well-drawn)
Episode 121 - Animation team B
Episode 122 - Animation team G
Episode 123 - Animation team A
Episode 125 - Animation team E
Episode 126 - Animation team B
Episode 127 - Animation team G
Episode 128 - Animation team A
Episode 130 - Animation team E
Episode 131 - Animation team B
Episode 132 - Animation team A
Episode 133 - Animation team G
Episode 134 - Animation team E
Episode 135 - Animation team B
Episode 136 - Animation team A
Episode 137 - Animation team G
Episode 139 - Animation team B
Cell arc:
Episode 140 - Animation team E
Episode 141 - Animation team A
Episode 142 - Animation team H (Fantastic movement, incredibly well-drawn, detailed and thick lines)
Episode 143 - Animation team G
Episode 144 - Animation team B
Episode 145 - Animation team A
Episode 146 - Animation team E
Episode 147 - Animation team G
Episode 148 - Animation team B
Episode 149 - Animation team A
Episode 150 - Animation team E
Episode 151 - Animation team A
Episode 152 - Animation team H
Episode 153 - Animation team B
Episode 155 - Animation team E
Episode 156 - Animation team A
Episode 157 - Animation team G
Episode 158 - Animation team B
Episode 159 - Animation team H
Episode 160 - Animation team E
Episode 161 - Animation team A
Episode 162 - Animation team G
Episode 163 - Animation team B
Episode 164 - Animation team H
Episode 165 - Animation team A
Episode 166 - Animation team E
Episode 167 - Animation team B
Episode 176 - Animation team B
Episode 178 - Animation team A
Episode 179 - Animation team I (good for fighting sequences and facial expressions, triangular lines, tendency to show a lot of sweat on characters' faces)
Episode 180 - Animation team E
Episode 181 - Animation team A
Episode 183 - Animation team B
Episode 184 - Animation team I
Episode 185 - Animation team G
Episode 186 - Animation team A
Episode 187 - Animation team E
Episode 189 - Animation team B
Episode 190 - Animation team A
Episode 191 - Animation team I
I could go on with the Majin Buu episodes, but I think this post has gone far enough and you'll get my point.
As you can see, they rotate, and they're used on an alternate/rotating basis, as in, one does a particular episode, another one does the following, etc., etc., until the rotation is done and they're back on the first one and start the rotation all over again.
The two shots taken of bad animation from DBZ posted a few pages before this one were of Animation team A and Animation team B (the worst one, by far).
Since the quality varies hugely between one team and the other, one episode can look incredibly different in terms of drawing when compared to the last one.
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[quote="kizuki"][spoiler][quote="MaGyunia"]Sorry for (yet) another huge post, but this is just to illustrate what I've been talking about regarding the different animation teams clearly present in the episodes throughout DB and DBZ in a alternate/rotating basis:
Piccolo Jr. arc:
Episode 137 - Animation team A (simple, not particularly detailed, but good for fighting sequences (Piccolo vs #17, Cell vs Gohan)
Episode 138 - Animation team B (horribly drawn characters, far too many triangular-like lines)
Episode 139 - Animation team C (extremely detailed and well-drawn lines, fast movement)
Episode 140 - Animation team A
Episode 141 - Animation team D (decent drawing, excellent movement during fights, tendency for too many lines in the faces and other parts of the body)
Episode 143 - Animation team E (my personal favorite, fantastic fighting, strong and bulky lines, incredible style)
Episode 144 - Animation team A
Episode 145 - Animation team B
Episode 146 - Animation team C
Episode 147 - Animation team A
Episode 148 - Animation team D
Saiya-jin arc:
Episode 1 - Animation team A
Episode 2 - Animation team D
Episode 3 - Animation team F (decent drawing and lining, but lack of movement)
Episode 4 - Animation team E
Episode 5 - Animation team A
Episode 6 - Animation team B
Episode 7 - Animation team C
Episode 8 - Animation team A
Episode 11 - Animation team E
Episode 21 - Animation team C
Episode 22 - Animation team A
Episode 23 - Animation team D
Episode 24 - Animation team F
Episode 25 - Animation team E
Episode 26 - Animation team A
Episode 27 - Animation team B
Episode 28 - Animation team C
Episode 29 - Animation team A
Episode 30 - Animation team D
Episode 31 - Animation team E
Episode 32 - Animation team A
Episode 33 - Animation team B
Episode 34 - Animation team C
Episode 35 - Animation team A
Freeza arc:
Episode 45 - Animation team A
Episode 46 - Animation team B
Episode 47 - Animation team E
Episode 48 - Animation team C
Episode 49 - Animation team A
Episode 50 - Animation team F
Episode 51 - Animation team B
Episode 52 - Animation team F
Episode 53 - Animation team A
Episode 54 - Animation team E
Episode 55 - Animation team A
Episode 56 - Animation team B
Episode 57 - Animation team F
Episode 58 - Animation team E
Episode 61 - Animation team B
Episode 62 - Animation team A
Episode 63 - Animation team E
Episode 64 - Animation team C
Episode 65 - Animation team F
Episode 66 - Animation team B
Episode 67 - Animation team A
Episode 68 - Animation team E
Episode 69 - Animation team F
Episode 71 - Animation team B
Episode 72 - Animation team A
Episode 73 - Animation team F
Episode 74 - Animation team A
Episode 75 - Animation team B
Episode 76 - Animation team E
Episode 78 - Animation team F
Episode 79 - Animation team A
Episode 80 - Animation team B
Episode 81 - Animation team E
Episode 82 - Animation team F
Episode 83 - Animation team A
Episode 84 - Animation team B
Episode 85 - Animation team A
Episode 86 - Animation team F
Episode 87 - Animation team E
Episode 88 - Animation team A
Episode 91 - Animation team F
Episode 92 - Animation team A
Episode 93 - Animation team E
Episode 94 - Animation team B
Episode 96 - Animation team A
Episode 97 - Animation team F
Episode 98 - Animation team E
Episode 99 - Animation team B
Episode 100 - Animation team A
Episode 101 - Animation team F
Episode 102 - Animation team A
Episode 103 - Animation team E
Episode 104 - Animation team B
Episode 105 - Animation team A
Episode 106 - Animation team F
Jinzouningen arc:
Episode 118 - Animation team A
Episode 119 - Animation team E
Episode 120 - Animation team G (Strong and thick lines, well-drawn)
Episode 121 - Animation team B
Episode 122 - Animation team G
Episode 123 - Animation team A
Episode 125 - Animation team E
Episode 126 - Animation team B
Episode 127 - Animation team G
Episode 128 - Animation team A
Episode 130 - Animation team E
Episode 131 - Animation team B
Episode 132 - Animation team A
Episode 133 - Animation team G
Episode 134 - Animation team E
Episode 135 - Animation team B
Episode 136 - Animation team A
Episode 137 - Animation team G
Episode 139 - Animation team B
Cell arc:
Episode 140 - Animation team E
Episode 141 - Animation team A
Episode 142 - Animation team H (Fantastic movement, incredibly well-drawn, detailed and thick lines)
Episode 143 - Animation team G
Episode 144 - Animation team B
Episode 145 - Animation team A
Episode 146 - Animation team E
Episode 147 - Animation team G
Episode 148 - Animation team B
Episode 149 - Animation team A
Episode 150 - Animation team E
Episode 151 - Animation team A
Episode 152 - Animation team H
Episode 153 - Animation team B
Episode 155 - Animation team E
Episode 156 - Animation team A
Episode 157 - Animation team G
Episode 158 - Animation team B
Episode 159 - Animation team H
Episode 160 - Animation team E
Episode 161 - Animation team A
Episode 162 - Animation team G
Episode 163 - Animation team B
Episode 164 - Animation team H
Episode 165 - Animation team A
Episode 166 - Animation team E
Episode 167 - Animation team B
Episode 176 - Animation team B
Episode 178 - Animation team A
Episode 179 - Animation team I (good for fighting sequences and facial expressions, triangular lines, tendency to show a lot of sweat on characters' faces)
Episode 180 - Animation team E
Episode 181 - Animation team A
Episode 183 - Animation team B
Episode 184 - Animation team I
Episode 185 - Animation team G
Episode 186 - Animation team A
Episode 187 - Animation team E
Episode 189 - Animation team B
Episode 190 - Animation team A
Episode 191 - Animation team I[/spoiler]
I could go on with the Majin Buu episodes, but I think this post has gone far enough and you'll get my point.
As you can see, they rotate, and they're used on an alternate/rotating basis, as in, one does a particular episode, another one does the following, etc., etc., until the rotation is done and they're back on the first one and start the rotation all over again.
The two shots taken of bad animation from DBZ posted a few pages before this one were of Animation team A and Animation team B (the worst one, by far).
Since the quality varies hugely between one team and the other, one episode can look incredibly different in terms of drawing when compared to the last one.[/quote]
I get that some animation teams are worse than others, and there's a rotation that happens in regards to that. I mean, it's like anything else. Some people do a job better than others, but when there's this big project that needs to be done -- there needs to be more than one team to complete it.
But, this last episode of Super and DEFINITELY the next one -- there is NO excuse for. I've never been the type to nitpick on the animations in Dragon Ball at all. I mean, I can remember watching the Cell Arc and SSJ2 Gohan having completely different hairstyles episode to episode based on the animation team (One team had his hair high up in the front, but it looked like the SSJ version in the back, while the other team had the more traditional SSJ2 hair we see everywhere with Gohan's hair upright and spikey) and I said, "Whatever." Even other instances I can't really think of right now, I've never even thought about complaining because it didn't take away from the experience of the episode(s). But this? This really looked like a bad DBZ flash game or something, lol.
Of course, I'm not going to go on a tirade on how I'm going to boycott Super, or Dragon Ball for that matter. I've been riding this train for over a decade, so F it, heheh'. But, it does take away from the experience. I found myself just wanted the episode to end rather than sit there and enjoy what I'm seeing.[/quote]
The instances of huge differences in drawing/hairstyle/faces/level of detail, etc. that you mention are just examples of what I tried to explain about one episode being massively different in terms of drawing/animation when compared to the last one, depicting the same character and/or scene. As a result of the rotation I've explained, that happens constantly throughout DB and DBZ. The variation is enormous, and so is the difference between the quality between some animation teams and others.
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The instances of huge differences in drawing/hairstyle/faces/level of detail, etc. that you mention are just examples of what I tried to explain about one episode being massively different in terms of drawing/animation when compared to the last one, depicting the same character and/or scene. As a result of the rotation I've explained, that happens constantly throughout DB and DBZ. The variation is enormous, and so is the difference between the quality between some animation teams and others.
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Envy wrote:
So are we ever going to see anything original, or is Super solely retelling BOG and RoF? Sorry, this has probably been discussed to death, but I haven't been around... I've just been very disappointed. It's hard to convince myself to even watch Super episodes when they're just retelling. =/
The BoG and Fukkatsu no F movies are going to be/are being retold in the form of episodes/arcs within DBSuper, pretty much depicting the same exact events in almost the same exact circumstances, with minor changes and additions here and there. After we're done with the retelling of BoG (call it the Beerus arc, if you will), which should last about 10-12 episodes, and the retelling of Fukkatsu no F (call it the Freeza arc), which should also last no longer than 10-12 episodes, then we'll get to a new arc - the 6th Universe arc - depicting entirely new events, with the introduction of new characters and villains, the exploration of the 6th Universe and the search for something called Super Dragon Balls; we should be starting on that arc by episode 30 or something approximate to that.
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kizuki wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
The instances of huge differences in drawing/hairstyle/faces/level of detail, etc. that you mention are just examples of what I tried to explain about one episode being massively different in terms of drawing/animation when compared to the last one, depicting the same character and/or scene. As a result of the rotation I've explained, that happens constantly throughout DB and DBZ. The variation is enormous, and so is the difference between the quality between some animation teams and others.
Enormous about covers the difference between this current animation team and, say .. everyone else, lol.
I don't know, like I said, I had to be the guy that sits here and harps on how bad something is but this really took me out of the experience. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we get the better animation teams working the pivotal episodes. The episode guide here has the names of people who worked / were lead on each episode. I'm wondering what is going to be the tipoff? I'm guessing "Art" but I could be wrong -- I'm not well versed as to how these things work. I'm also not sure if it is an animation team problem as much as it is an actual problem with the art style itself? Don't know .. just hope it gets adjusted for the episodes coming up.
The particular animation teams I've referred to/listed/detailed in the huge post don't apply neither to any of the 13 DBZ Movies nor to the Bardock Special and the Trunks Special, and they most certainly don't apply to anything made since the reemergence of Dragonball in 2008 with the Tarble Special. After all these years, they're entirely done with the way they used to work regarding the rotation of the animation teams for DB and DBZ episodes, and the animation used for the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, the opening and closing for Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, although having some variation to it, is entirely different on a variety of ways (the way they draw the characters, the movement, the lighting, etc.). The last two movies had fantastic animation, especially during the peak of the major fights, but DBSuper's first four episodes were just ok on that department; for some reason, a large chunk of episode 5 was drawn and animated in an extremely poor way even for DBSuper's standards. But neither the awful animation of episode 5 of DBSuper or that of any other episodes of the series, or that of the recent movies/specials/Kai they threw our way since 2008 should be compared to the way I described it used to happen, with the rotation of animation teams, for the episodes of DB and DBZ.
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Noah wrote:
People should discuss more about this:
Image
Oh god this a total garbage. Invert colors? for realsies? Now I have no doubt that this episode was made in MS Paint
This actually remember me of that:
Spoiler:View
:lol:
If they want to show Goku with a shocked expression after he being knock out they could use something similar to that:
Image
This totally express the terror and the pain the caracter was suffering, I think TOEI forgot what is Dragon Ball
On another topic why the hell they change the original SFX sounds? Aura, eletrecticity, Kamehameha, energy attacks... All that feel so lame in Super. Are they trying to dismiss Dragon Ball franchise for good?
That shocked character is actually Gohan, after receiving a major punch by Cell in episode 182.
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TheDBZmaster100 wrote:
This was a terrible episode, absolutely awful.
I might as well drop this and wait for the ROF arc (which needs some major re-telling).
I pray that we get some good art/animations for the Universe 6 saga, if not then I will simply drop this nonsense.
Also regarding episode of Sabo, I would have preferred an actual new One Piece movie since we already just received a Sabo flashback... I doubt ODA has any involvement in this special anyways.
'Boycotting One Piece' what a ridiculous idea, don't embarrass yourselves... We should be addressing TOEI as a whole.
Holy shit. Really, people getting ready to entirely drop a new series of Dragonball after 18 years either aren't fans enough to be willing to put up with one (granted) awfully animated episode, or are reacting just way too hastily. The entire point of the detailed list I provided to explain the animation teams behind the episodes throughout DB and DBZ was to show that we've had EXTREMELY bad animation in the 80's and 90's and it did absolutely nothing to make Dragonball's popularity or success decline. Give it some time, for f***'s sake, we're 5 episodes into the new series, it barely just begun.
As a Dragonball fan since my childhood, now in my early 30's and having followed every single step of the franchise and watched every single episode hundreds of times over nearly two decades, I'm more than willing to give it not one second shot, but a third, a fourth, a fifth and an almost interminable number of additional shots until I decide to skip even one episode. But that may just be me.
As for the reasons behind retelling both BoG and Fukkatsu no F and turn them into arcs within DBSuper, which was announced right after the whole commotion surrounding Fukkatsu no F, and only 2 years and a few months, respectively, after each one was released, it's become pretty obvious from Toriyama's comments and views that he wanted the stories told exactly the way he wanted, without leaving anything out, and he couldn't do that neither in BoG nor in Fukkatsu no F due to the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature film, even a longer one. If you couple that with the decision to go further and have the recent movies/specials/Kai be some sort of follow-up to the REAL explosive news - an entirely full-fledged new Dragonball series -, it's no longer a mystery why they chose to have two of the main arcs within the series become retellings of events to which we've already been introduced in the movies, with only minor or slight differences and a few natural additions. Toriyama thought: "ok, we're gonna make a new series, I just have to take this opportunity to show fans the events surrounding Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, resurrection of Freeza exactly the way I originally meant it".
On another note, enough about the animation already. We must remain optimistic and believe that this was just one screw-up of an episode which won't be repeated soon. It just happened to have been in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, the first big fight and featuring arguably the two most important characters in the series/franchise at this point. If we were willing to put up with an awfully animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's in DB and DBZ, we should be willing to put up with one awfully animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. I know it's 2015, I know it was absolutely horrendous to the point of being tragically laughable, I was utterly pissed off not only after I watched it but actually AS I watched it, but enough of this already. Really. Look forward to what's coming next and quit complaining. This gets us nowhere and generates an entire wave of negativity surrounding a series which debuted just over a month ago.
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kidhero1000 wrote:
This totally expresses the terror of 90s Toei animation quality control
Image
That's what I called "animation team A" in my list a few pages ago in this thread and it's from Episode 178. It's good for fight sequences, it looks fast and dynamic but lacks an awful lot of detail, and if you look closer like in this one shot there are actually major shortcomings in terms of drawing.
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JacobYBM wrote:
Folks, if you're not going to actually discuss animation and instead talk about cropped screen captures of in-between drawings there really isn't any point in going any further. Nobody is learning anything (partly because so many seemed hellbent on just not reading others' posts).
Let me repeat myself to second that: "enough about the animation already. We must remain optimistic and believe that this was just one screw-up of an episode which won't be repeated soon. It just happened to have been in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, the first big fight and featuring arguably the two most important characters in the series/franchise at this point. If we were willing to put up with an awfully animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's in DB and DBZ, we should be willing to put up with one awfully animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. I know it's 2015, I know it was absolutely horrendous to the point of being tragically laughable, I was utterly pissed off not only after I watched it but actually AS I watched it, but enough of this already. Really. Look forward to what's coming next and quit complaining. This gets us nowhere and generates an entire wave of negativity surrounding a series which debuted just over a month ago."
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Sora Saiyan wrote:
funrush wrote:
I guess it finally took it happening to Dragon Ball to get people fully aware of the modern "Toei Curse". Let's hope what happened here is they rushed scenes to get them to TV on time, and they'll fix them up later for the home release like they did Sailor Moon Crystal. This is actually a fairly common practice now, I remember it happening to Attack on Titan and Madoka Magica.
There's a chance Super episode 5's animation could be fixed for the home release? That would be perfect!
The damage has already been done, though. "What has been seen cannot be unseen". But seriously, most people are discussing this as this was the end of Dragonball. I guess there had to be already some build-up to these reactions, it can't just because the - granted - horrible animation of episode 5. But are people really thinking there's even a remote possibility they'll cancel Dragonball or that it will stop running in the short/medium-term because of this (and possibly a few other) horribly animated episodes? That's not all there is to it. There's storyline, there's character background. The visuals don't need to be incredibly fantastic all the time, but they certainly won't always be like they were most of the time in episode 5. If we were willing to put up with about one EXTREMELY badly animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's during DB and DBZ's run, then we must be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. No point in arguing and especially COMPLAINING about it anymore, it won't do any good and will only generate a wave of negativity over a series which has started running just a little over a month ago. The entire thing about official complaints and petitions is ridiculous, give it some time, calm down and look forward to what's coming. Have some belief in what they're doing. Is everybody's fandom really that weak that all it takes is one badly animated episode for people to start "threatening" to drop the series altogether? Utterly ridiculous.
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Blade wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
Folks, if you're not going to actually discuss animation and instead talk about cropped screen captures of in-between drawings there really isn't any point in going any further. Nobody is learning anything (partly because so many seemed hellbent on just not reading others' posts).
Let me repeat myself to second that: "enough about the animation already. We must remain optimistic and believe that this was just one screw-up of an episode which won't be repeated soon. It just happened to have been in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, the first big fight and featuring arguably the two most important characters in the series/franchise at this point. If we were willing to put up with an awfully animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's in DB and DBZ, we should be willing to put up with one awfully animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. I know it's 2015, I know it was absolutely horrendous to the point of being tragically laughable, I was utterly pissed off not only after I watched it but actually AS I watched it, but enough of this already. Really. Look forward to what's coming next and quit complaining. This gets us nowhere and generates an entire wave of negativity surrounding a series which debuted just over a month ago."
I don't see how these sorts of debates get us any more nowhere than outpourings of baseless optimism. Are we debating towards a defined conclusion or a fixed end-point? No. As such, the result of this, as is the case with any debate, is a subjective, impermanent concept. Sure, I get that pages of negativity are not fun to read, but they're no less valid than pages of whitewashed positivity.
I think fans have a right to be angry. This episode had few saving graces, as a narrative spectacle it sucked, and as a work of art it blowed.
Don't get me wrong, I was disappointed to the point of being disgusted at it, but will it really do anything for each one of us individually or collectively to center our discussions ONLY on how horrible the animation was for most part of the episode? Of course there's no definite conclusion to be reached at this point. That's why I say "wait and see", we have no idea what the animation will look like in the following episodes or at some future point in DBSuper, for all we know they could throw an entire new animation team working on the episodes starting on a particular episode or at the beginning of a particular arc. We don't know, we just don't know, we can only speculate, and we can only wait. I won't discuss how horrible the animation was again until I get to see the next episode, I'm tired of the whole thing.
And yes, fans have a right to be angry, and being a hardcore Dragonball fan, I'm also angry, but I'm not reacting like it's the end of the world or like they're disrespecting Dragonball's fantastic history or threatening that I'll just drop the show and skip the episodes altogether.
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Ok, major complaints about DBSuper:
- The fact that it dedicates two entire arcs to the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F just 2 years and a few months, respectively, after they came out, with next-to-no change in the plot and character backgrounds and only a few minor random additions here and there
- The whole somewhat disappointing animation/drawing in the episodes so far (before episode 5)
- The horrendous animation, art and fighting choreography in episode 5
Like in any other situation in life, we need to break this down and think carefully about each item and develop personal/individual or collective solutions for each one of them separately other than freaking out about the whole thing.
We're well over the first one, as we came to understand why that happened and why they chose to go down that road. We've more than completed the process of accepting that we're only going to get entirely new stuff in the 6th Universe arc.
The animation overall, except that of episode 5, isn't that much weaker than the stuff they've been throwing our way recently (2008 special, Episode of Bardock, opening and closing for Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
We most likely won't get another episode THIS horrendously drawn as we did in most of episode 5, at least in the near future. This was a temporary screw-up, and the animation team responsible for this episode won't be doing any more for quite a while, just the way the rotation between animation teams worked in DB and DBZ.
Again, if we were willing to put up with one AWFULLY animated episode in DB an DBZ in the 80's and 90's in every 5 or 6, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. That's what a series of episodes is, especially when there are several entirely different animation teams behind each episode on an alternating/rotating basis. This is not a theatrical feature like BoG or Fukkatsu no F, this is a series, with both its benefits (more content, more time to develop the plot and the characters) and its disadvantages (weaker animation quality) Besides, Dragonball isn't only visuals, it's storyline, plot, character development and background. Granted, the visual aspect, especially during the fights, was and IS a major fundamental factor in what made Dragonball fantastic, along with the other stuff I mentioned, especially for male hardcore DBZ fans who are now in their early 30's like me and grew up watching every episode of the series every day in their childhood and adolescence.
Why not hold your anger and rage a little bit until we get to see the next episode(s)? What exactly are the other complaints about DBSuper that I haven't listed that made me read some of you saying that it's a "travesty"? Please develop on this. Setting aside the animation of episode 5 for a second, what exactly is so wrong about DBSuper so far? Or is it really just the animation of episode 5? Are you that weak a fan that all it takes for you to moan constantly about the creators of the show/franchise and threaten to drop it or take action against Toei is to have one badly animated episode? If there were forums like these back in the 80's and 90's, Dragonball would probably have never gotten even halfway compared to what it did, judging by a large chunk of fan reactions to poorly animated/coreographed sequences/episodes.
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Ok, major complaints about DBSuper:
- The fact that it dedicates two entire arcs to the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F just 2 years and a few months, respectively, after they came out, with next-to-no change in the plot and character backgrounds and only a few minor random additions here and there
- The whole somewhat disappointing animation/drawing in the episodes so far (before episode 5)
- The horrendous animation, art and fighting choreography in episode 5
Like in any other situation in life, we need to break this down and think carefully about each item and develop personal/individual or collective solutions for each one of them separately other than freaking out about the whole thing.
We're well over the first one, as we came to understand why that happened and why they chose to go down that road. We've more than completed the process of accepting that we're only going to get entirely new stuff in the 6th Universe arc.
The animation overall, except that of episode 5, isn't that much weaker than the stuff they've been throwing our way recently (2008 special, Episode of Bardock, opening and closing for Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
We most likely won't get another episode THIS horrendously drawn as we did in most of episode 5, at least in the near future. This was a temporary screw-up, and the animation team responsible for this episode won't be doing any more for quite a while, just the way the rotation between animation teams worked in DB and DBZ.
Again, if we were willing to put up with one AWFULLY animated episode in DB an DBZ in the 80's and 90's in every 5 or 6, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. That's what a series of episodes is, especially when there are several entirely different animation teams behind each episode on an alternating/rotating basis. This is not a theatrical feature like BoG or Fukkatsu no F, this is a series, with both its benefits (more content, more time to develop the plot and the characters) and its disadvantages (weaker animation quality) Besides, Dragonball isn't only visuals, it's storyline, plot, character development and background. Granted, the visual aspect, especially during the fights, was and IS a major fundamental factor in what made Dragonball fantastic, along with the other stuff I mentioned, especially for male hardcore DBZ fans who are now in their early 30's like me and grew up watching every episode of the series every day in their childhood and adolescence.
Why not hold your anger and rage a little bit until we get to see the next episode(s)? What exactly are the other complaints about DBSuper that I haven't listed that made me read some of you saying that it's a "travesty"? Please develop on this. Setting aside the animation of episode 5 for a second, what exactly is so wrong about DBSuper so far? Or is it really just the animation of episode 5? Are you that weak a fan that all it takes for you to moan constantly about the creators of the show/franchise and threaten to drop it or take action against Toei is to have one badly animated episode? If there were forums like these back in the 80's and 90's, Dragonball would probably have never gotten even halfway compared to what it did, judging by a large chunk of fan reactions to poorly animated/coreographed sequences/episodes.
irreality wrote:
Blade wrote:
This episode had few saving graces, as a narrative spectacle it sucked, and as a work of art it blowed.
I wish people were discussing the narrative of the episode at all -- good or bad, but there has been precious little of that in 20+ pages. I don't think there was anything wrong with the narrative, quite frankly -- it was what was expected from a more leisurely retelling of the fight and worked well.
We got nice moments with Gregory, Kaiou and Bubbles, Whis' background interactions were nice with his lunch, I thought the buildup of the fight was well paced -- seeing a little of each level, and it was an interesting take in general for what they are trying to do with Goku's character of late. I preferred the Kamehameha through the planet over the punch -- it makes me feel Goku really was fighting all out against Beerus. I thought the way Beerus knocked out Goku this time was more dramatic than in BoG where he just seems polite and non-threatening. And then the ending with Vegeta and Bulma brought us back to that part of the plot.
The way Beerus addresses Goku before he KO's him sent chills throughout my spine. He came across as a total villain by dropping that line before rendering him unconscious. That goes along just fine with the way he's been portrayed in the previous episodes, when compared to his laid-backness and sometimes even humorous character in BoG. He's much more serious, to-the-point and dramatic in the series, and the best example was precisely the whole way he KO's Goku.
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Goku has no idea how strong Beerus is. He can't sense godly Ki, all he knows is that he's the "Hakaishin" and that he's strong enough to make the Kaioshin terrified, but early in the Majin Buu arc he, along with Vegeta, notice that they've become powerful enough to make the Kaioshin terrified themselves, so that's no good basis to judge Beerus' exact level of power on. He most likely assumes he's stronger than him, even if only in his Super Saiya-jin 3 form, but gets an opponent who is more than he - or ANYONE, except Whis - can chew.
This isn't the first instance of Goku being over-confident about his power - for good reasons, he's become one of the strongest fighters the Universe has ever seen, which includes Gods -, which is met by a major ass-kicking (Piccolo Daimao, Mr. Popo, Freeza, Beerus). The good thing, and one valuable lesson Dragonball has always taught us, is that he learns from it and instead of moaning or becoming depressive about it he IMMEDIATELY gets to training to overcome both his previous limits and those of his opponents, eventually surpassing himself and others on a next-to-infinite number of occasions. The same goes for Vegeta, who despite overcoming his limits and surpassing a number of warriors who were stronger than him (Dodoria, Zarbon, Recoome, Ginyu, Freeza, #18, Cell) also has his own fair share of major ass-kickings soon after he proclaims himself - again - as the strongest in the Universe and thinks he's finally overcome Kakarotto (Goku, Zarbon, Freeza, Recoome, #18, Cell).
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irreality wrote:
I mean -- I'm not sure there is anything particularly impressive about punching a whole through Kaiou's planet -- that thing is tiny. They destroy cliffsides that are bigger than that routinely.
But having Goku fight and not discharge a single energy attack? I just rewatched the scene from battle of Gods, and it almost makes it seem like Goku is just missing and is caught off guard by Beerus' KO (the way Goku was startled by Majin Vegeta just a few months ago) because he can't sense God Ki vs. Beerus being unusually fast or strong.
In this fight you see how Beerus compares to the different energy levels: in SSJ, Beerus is dodging so easily it is like goku isn't even fighting. In SSJ2, he is dodging a bit less, but still out of his league. At SSJ3, things aren't even strengthwise at all, but it starts to make sense where Goku falls in relation to Beerus.
I don't think Goku is being unnecessarily cocky -- he was polite at the beginning of the fight and is mostly doing it for fun. He doesn't want to end it too suddenly. Considering Kaioshin, the previous God they encountered, radically underestimated the power of our heroes, I can see Goku being curious and not wanting to reveal all his tricks all at once.
Goku has no idea how strong Beerus is. He can't sense godly Ki, all he knows is that he's the "Hakaishin" and that he's strong enough to make the Kaioshin terrified, but early in the Majin Buu arc he, along with Vegeta, notice that they've become powerful enough to make the Kaioshin terrified themselves, so that's no good basis to judge Beerus' exact level of power on. He most likely assumes he's stronger than him, even if only in his Super Saiya-jin 3 form, but gets an opponent who is more than he - or ANYONE, except Whis - can chew.
This isn't the first instance of Goku being over-confident about his power - for good reasons, he's become one of the strongest fighters the Universe has ever seen, which includes Gods -, which is met by a major ass-kicking (Piccolo Daimao, Mr. Popo, Freeza, Beerus). The good thing, and one valuable lesson Dragonball has always taught us, is that he learns from it and instead of moaning or becoming depressive about it he IMMEDIATELY gets to training to overcome both his previous limits and those of his opponents, eventually surpassing himself and others on a next-to-infinite number of occasions. The same goes for Vegeta, who despite overcoming his limits and surpassing a number of warriors who were stronger than him (Dodoria, Zarbon, Recoome, Ginyu, Freeza, #18, Cell) also has his own fair share of major ass-kickings soon after he proclaims himself - again - as the strongest in the Universe and thinks he's finally overcome Kakarotto (Goku, Zarbon, Freeza, Recoome, #18, Cell).
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batistabus wrote:
This episode did not need to exist. Honestly, I would've been MUCH happier if they literally inserted the fight scene from Battle of Gods completely unchanged, and then just reanimated the scenes with Vegeta on the boat instead of at the house. Aside from the animation being embarrassingly bad, the writing and pacing was terrible as well.
That aside, the new Kaio voice actor speaks sooooo slowly and it's really bothersome to me.
If they did what you suggest, then instead of the awful animation everyone would be complaining about their UNBELIEVABLE level of laziness. Besides, it wouldn't even be practical, as the fight at Kaiou-sama's planet in BoG lasted literally one minute since the moment Goku first charged until he got KO'd. The whole episode was meant to be devoted to the acquiantance + fight, so even if they just threw the footage from the fight sequence from BoG in, they would only be filling one single minute of the episode.
Throwing in existing footage from decades ago is something that has already happened in DBSuper in three occasions and it was met with disdain by most fans (in the first episode, they threw in original DBZ footage of Super Saiya-jin 3 vs Kid Buu, in the second, original DBZ footage of Vegeta in the gravity room with Trunks, and in episode three, Cell's explosion at Kaiou-sama's planet). They were short-timed insertions, but it was enough for fans to call them "lazy", so imagine the reactions if they just picked up the fight sequence from BoG and pasted it untouched into the episode.
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Noah wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
That shocked character is actually Gohan, after receiving a major punch by Cell in episode 182.
I already knew that when I made my post, pal :lol:
I assumed so, but just in case... :lol:
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Blade wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I was disappointed to the point of being disgusted at it, but will it really do anything for each one of us individually or collectively to center our discussions ONLY on how horrible the animation was for most part of the episode? Of course there's no definite conclusion to be reached at this point. That's why I say "wait and see", we have no idea what the animation will look like in the following episodes or at some future point in DBSuper, for all we know they could throw an entire new animation team working on the episodes starting on a particular episode or at the beginning of a particular arc. We don't know, we just don't know, we can only speculate, and we can only wait. I won't discuss how horrible the animation was again until I get to see the next episode, I'm tired of the whole thing.
And yes, fans have a right to be angry, and being a hardcore Dragonball fan, I'm also angry, but I'm not reacting like it's the end of the world or like they're disrespecting Dragonball's fantastic history or threatening that I'll just drop the show and skip the episodes altogether.
I honestly don't know what you're saying. Do you realise that this is a discreet thread in a wider forum created for the sole purpose of talking about Episode 5 of Dragonball Super? We're talking about something in the past tense, something that aired two days ago, something that is tangible and can be seen and analysed - so what are you actually saying? That we don't know enough about the nature of future content to adequately discuss the quality of something that we can see with our eyes? There's no crystal gazing required for the task.
I'm all for looking at the bigger picture and viewing things in context, and I also like to take a longitudinal approach in how judge Super overall, but as far as I'm concerned, this is a thread that is predominantly for the purpose of discussing a single episode in a vacuum - and it wasn't very good.
Dude, I was just making a simple and inoffensive general observation that, in my own personal opinion - and everyone is entitled to have one and express it, regardless of how wrong or right it is -, you and a few others are concentrating way too much on the - granted, again - extremely awful animation/fighting choreography we were presented to in episode 5. Although there was little else to grab onto, as you rightly pointed out, since the episode was deliberately meant to focus almost in its entirety to the acquaintance + fight between Goku and Beerus, it just gets to a point where it becomes annoying and inconsequential to complain over and over about the same subject, ESPECIALLY when there's nothing we can do about it and when this sort of screw-up HAS happened in the past NUMEROUS times and definitely and certainly won't happen in the near future in DBSuper. We can't judge the entire series based on the most part of episode 5, and some people are doing it. Do you think it's healthy to dedicate 30 pages of this thread to basically complain about how bad the animation was? If that's your opinion - and I happen to share it - then express it, once, twice, three times, expand on it, point out the reasons you believe are behind it and focus on and discuss what needs to be done to overcome this disaster of an episode, but do it while looking at the larger picture. I've had my own personal share of anger and negativity in my feedback on the episode's tragically laughable animation quality, but you don't see me repeating my complaints over and over in an overly pessimistic/dramatic way in every single post I make for pages on end. You happen to be quite angry about the animation quality of the episode, and so was I. Where the hell is the difference between us? I think you're addressing me in an overly aggressive manner for no good reason, and I don't think I've done or written ANYTHING that makes me deserve that sort of response and feedback from you. I've been actually trying for more than one day to move on other aspects of the episode individually and also when put into the context of the series and, in fact, the entire franchise, which doesn't go against the rules (and by this I mean that although this thread is dedicated to the discussion and feedback on episode 5 of DBSuper, we're entitled to write on more general aspects of Dragonball that go BEYOND the episode itself, it's been done before in the threads dedicated to each of the previous episodes and nobody ever complained about it, but even so, I've been keeping my posts in this thread mostly focused on whatever we can still analyze other than the animation, as you can see if you look through my most recent posts in this thread).
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So, any idea on how likely it is that Toei is really "hunting down" those who provide live streams? I honestly and personally would be beyond frustrated and pissed off at the scenario of not being able to watch every single episode as it airs in Japan. It's become some sort of a rather pleasant routine. I can't wait for official releases, I need to watch it now. I've dealt with other areas which have nothing to do with Dragonball in which I found the companies tracking down people, threatening legal action, taking down websites, appointing lawyers to write scary letters or make phone calls, etc., in order to contain leaks and stuff, and it has affected me personally in the past. On this note, a few live streaming websites that provided the possibility of watching Fuji TV online have become offline in the last few days.
I'm sure they can't deal with the whole thing, especially if it's live streaming and not an actual "leak" of a particular file or set of files, which just goes beyond anybody's control after a while. This is the internet, there's always going to be a way to do and watch basically anything if we dig deep and well enough.
Someone with real information on this, if anybody, please reply.
Regarding the article on Forbes, I found "The other and more ugly aspect to all this is that Japanese anime production is equatable to slave labor, so these kinds of lapses in quality are more down to an abused workforce than any kind of simple production oversight" funny and "Considering that Super started out really well and has a long run ahead of it" a cheerful way to look at it, contrasting with the over-dramatic way some Japanese and Western fans were reacting to it.
I think it's safe, and not overly optimsitic, to assume that we won't be seeing this sort of horrendous animation, art and fighting choreography any time soon - for many reasons, especially the fact that Toei is fully aware of the proportions this decadent episode took - and that the next episode(s) will be on the same level of quality in all aspects (storyline, animation, character background, comic relief) as the first four ones, so we'll soon, in a matter of days, regain our collective composure.
It would be rather nice to end the whole debate over the animation/art quality of most of the fight in episode 5 with the conclusion that if anyone wants to get the full experience of the battle and the hopelessness of Goku against Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet, then just stick to BoG's version of it, even if it's just - literally - one minute long and although you'll be missing the much more serious and "evil" atmosphere Beerus approaches Goku in in DBSuper's version of it when compared to his laid-backness in the movie.
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theoriginalbilis wrote:
We'll get through this, people.
If the prequels didn't kill the Star Wars franchise...
If Amazing Spider-Man 1 & 2 didn't kill the Spider-Man franchise...
If Batman and Robin didn't kill the Batman franchise...
If bad dubs, GT, and sub-par video games, didn't kill the Dragon Ball franchise... a couple of poorly animated episodes won't either.
Of course they won't. I seriously don't know where this is "this is the end of Dragonball" stuff is coming from.
Let's look at the facts: for some reason, it took them 11 years (from the very end of GT in 1997 until the 2008 Tarble Special) for them to provide us with something new on Dragonball. We've welcomed everything they threw our way since then (Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Fukkatsu no F) with open arms, the entire Dragonball fandom accepted Beerus as one of the best characters in the franchise ever. No major complaints about anything in DBSuper until this last episode, whose mistakes won't be repeated.
Do you really think that after all this all it will take is ONE badly animated episode?
Besides, even if they screwed up big time, they could change direction and make a movie along the lines of BoG to kick ass again, to regain their composure and the fans' respect, and the damage would be undone in a matter of months.
There are countless instances throughout Hollywood, between movies and actors' careers, of sequences of laughably bad decisions after which they kicked ass again with one or two acclaimed movies and managed to come back on top.
Dragonball is immortal, or, in this case, "unkillable". Its potential is virtually limitless.
TripleRach wrote:
It's possible they've gone after some popular sites that have come onto their radar (probably via the Japanese fandom), but I doubt they have a big team of piracy hunters along the same lines as the NFL or UFC. I would imagine their legal department is more concerned with DVD/BD uploads or camrips of movies than live streams of free TV.
I shouldn't really be talking about this. But the biggest issue with streams is not even their legality. You're relying on some guy to provide a free service at his (or her) whim. His equipment could break, the viewers could frustrate him, or he could simply lose interest. As opposed to legal services like Crunchyroll, where people are employed to provide the episodes and have contracts and deadlines to fulfill, and access to official materials and professional equipment. Illegal streams are just inherently unreliable. Popular TV streamers constantly come and go.
Thank you for the time to share your view on my concerns.
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If the next episode returns to the level of quality animation-wise we've seen in the first four, the debate and rage over episode 5 will cease to even exist and we'll return to discussions over other issues and the episode's events themselves. If the animation in episode 6 turns out to be partially or totally as awful as the most part of episode 5, we'll just get another wave of anger over it, but everything will return to normal after they get their shit together. This was a totally forgettable temporary screw-up.
Can't hope to return to debate plot, storyline, comic instances, the little details, etc. We were kind of "forced" to skip that due to the animation/art/fighting choreography in episode 5, but hopefully everything will return to normal a few days from now.
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I think we're lucky that after so many years of inactivity, and GT in between, they put each character exactly where they belonged in terms of power in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper (as in, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, Gotenks, fat Majin Buu being somewhere between SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku, etc.). Although we've also debated a few weeks ago the issues over their depiction of Gohan and his apparent regression to a nerdy little weakling unwilling to fight - now even when necessary - when he's supposed to be one of the strongest fighters that ever existed, I think they're well aware of just where he fits in the ranking in terms of power level, but for totally different reasons won't give him the fighting time his level of power "deserves". Vegeta is much more of a protagonist in DBSuper than Gohan is (by far), and they are and will be matching his level of power to his degree or protagonism (in fact, in Fukkatsu no F this has already happened, Vegeta is the one achieving the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God stages, and the only one among the good guys to keep up with Goku), which means Vegeta will soon overcome Gohan in DBSuper, and by overcoming Gohan he'll automatically be overcoming fat Majin Buu, Gotenks, most of the Super Buu variations and Kid Buu.
Regarding the fighting time everyone will get, and taking into account the obvious fact that they'll stretch everyone's attempts at Beerus even if for a few seconds, depending on the characters, I assume it will take more than one kick to the stomach to KO Gohan, and that Vegeta will not only have two goes at Beerus like he did in BoG, it will also take more to bring him down and he'll most likely have almost half an episode worth of fighting time. Vegeta will by far be the one on Earth besides Goku to receive more fighting time, for the reasons explained in the first paragraph. And I also believe he'll be much more serious in his approach to Beerus than he was in BoG before his attempts to calm him down failed, although he'll be just as cautious and aware of the danger Beerus poses as he was in the movie.
I hope the animation doesn't screw up the fantastic experience we should get during the entire account of Beerus meeting everyone on Earth, losing his shit and then proceeding to KO every single one who has a go at him. I'm at this point looking forward to these events even more than I was to Goku's acquaintance + fight with Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet prior to the episode's release.
Regarding my two favorite characters, despite Vegeta being a major protagonist throughout DBZ, and his massive power at any point throughout the series, he was surpassed in the Jinzouningen arc by Mirai no Trunks, Piccolo, #17, #18 and #16, and in the Cell arc by Goku, Gohan, Mirai no Trunks and Cell himself; in the Majin Buu arc, he was surpassed yet again by Gohan, Goku, Gotenks, Vegitto, fat Majin Buu, all variations of Super Buu and Kid Buu. After (or maybe even during) the Beerus arc in DBSuper, he'll skip ALL of these gaps and overcome pretty much every single fighter I just mentioned except Goku. Finally, this is the true place Vegeta deserves to be in, as a pure Saiya-jin and as one of the main protagonists: above Gohan, above Gotenks, on par with Goku. It took about two decades to get it done, but there it is.
As for Piccolo, despite not having become obsolete as a fighter, he did manage to keep up with most of the fighter throughout the Jinzouningen arc, and indeed the Cell arc, but he reached his limits there and was totally unable to keep up with the major fighters throughout the Majin Buu arc (in fact, he doesn't even fight during the entire thing). His level of power "stopped" at the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, he's slightly above #18, so if even the fighters who managed to keep up with Majin Buu don't stand a chance against Beerus, Piccolo (and #18) most certainly don't either.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
Retell the movies was a bad idea since day one. They should just have followed Buu Kai ending and make Super take place after EOZ.
Even though Super is fleshing out things better, people want to see original content. Not a retelling from something they just saw some time ago.
Everything would work better:
- Fans would finally had a sequel to DBZ from Toriyama.
- More about the new generation. Especially Pan and Uub Toriyama versions.
- Not stuck in a 10 year gap and maybe we could get an unpredictable ending, because we already know the ending for Super thanks to EOZ...
Everyone would win.
Beerus and Whis could still appear, its not like they would be left out.
Let's just say after Goku and Vegeta learnt to use their God Ki, they returned to their peaceful lives on Earth. The plot would still be about the 12 universes.
The thing is they wanted the (re)introduction of Dragonball to basically pick up at the timing/circumstances in which the general fandom remembers the characters (Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 3, Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2, Goten and Trunks as kids, etc.). We're basically "stuck" in the 10 year gap generated by the timeskip between episodes 288 and 289 in DBZ.
The ORIGINAL mistake, in my view, was the hasty ending given to DBZ, with those last 3 episodes happening after 10 years. That basically presented them with two alternatives on when exactly to set a new series: either in the 10 year gap, which has the disadvantage of having whatever happens during DBSuper inevitably and eventually lead up to the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, or have it placed AFTER the very last episode of DBZ, with everyone grown up, Pan and Bra in existence, and a long, long time having passed since the defeat of Kid Buu, which is still deeply present in everyone's minds when Toriyama came up with the concept of Uub, who's inherently connected to him. One solution for this would be so simply retcon the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make them "inexistent", and basically have DBSuper be placed at whatever timing they choose to (2 years later, 5 years, 10, whatever).
I believe that the reason behind the decision to retell BoG and Fukkatsu no F just 2 years and a few months after they came out, respectively, in the form of arcs within DBSuper in pretty much the exact same circumstances except for a few minor changes and additions was the fact that Toriyama simply wanted to present fans with his untouched, original version of the events depicted in the movies, which he couldn't do due to the time restraints typical of theatrical features, even longer ones. He just had to (re)introduce Beerus, Whis, the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Golden Freeza. They could have chosen to go another route, have the series start after the movies, rendering them direct canon continuations of the series' timeline, have it take place after the introduction of Uub, have it REPLACE the last 3 episodes of DBZ, among other options, but this is what they've chosen and I don't think we can call it a mistake. The REAL mistake, in my view, was to end DBZ as quickly as possible and have those last 3 episodes placed 10 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. That generated a whole can of worms with which we're still dealing with almost 20 years later.
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None of the villains particularly appeal to me (virtually nothing appeals to me in GT, but oh well), but if I had to pick one I'd go with Super 17, simply because it would be nice to have #17 be "used" again; he was first introduced as a major villain along with #18, and after the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs she stuck with the gang throughout the Majin Buu arc and the events that took place after that. I'd like to see the same done with #17. The problem would be to generate a way in which ANOTHER #17 would be created, or how Super 17 would be created at all in some other way.
From the good guys, Gogeta. Not in his Super Saiya-jin 4 form, obviously, as the very concept of Super Saiya-jin 4 generates all sorts of plot-holes and inconsistencies with the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages - the only thing I like about SSJ4 is how it looks, apart from it it's an entire can of worms from all possible angles. Achieving Gogeta would bring back the fusion technique to DBSuper, although I prefer his counterpart Vegitto, with the Potara method of fusion.
These are just exercises of wishful thinking, none of this has any chance of becoming true in DBSuper, of course, but it's a nice and interesting thing to debate.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
DragonHermit wrote:
Either last 3 episodes of Z are cannon or Super is cannon. You can't have both as they're contradicting. Last episodes of Z are officially non cannon at this point.
Not really. The manga is always canon. What isn't in the manga is filler. If the creator writes a new story it may be considered canon or both canon/filler.
Officialy is not the right word. People can choose if they want to accept the new stuff or not. I welcome new stuff but I don't intend to change anything.
There's no point after all these years.
And cannon is a weapon.
That's one way to look at it, but there are others. One could argue that canon is whatever doesn't generate plot-holes/inconsistencies/timeline impossibilities (an example would be the Garlic Jr. arc, or Movie 9). I go for this one, otherwise about half of DB and DBZ is non-canon, given how much filler material there is there (as in, scenes which aren't based on the original manga).
The last 3 episodes of DBZ could still remain canon, in that sense, so long as Pan isn't conceived just a few months after the defeat of Kid Buu in DBSuper. Apart from that, there's really nothing that makes it absolutely impossible to have happened, at least so far (even Beerus' and Whis' appearance, the resurrection of Freeza, Goku and Vegeta achieving both Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin and potentially the events of the 6th Universe arc don't contradict the ending of DBZ). Doesn't mean I WANT that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub to remain canon. I don't, but theoretically, at this point, it still is.
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Sayo-chan wrote:
iop890 wrote:
Also this. Cell was a great character, and he is the only major villain that was just ignored after his death.
Vegeta's a Z-fighter now and consistently made the second strongest character.
Freeza was resurrected and is getting an entire new arc in Super in addition to his movie.
Buu not only split into a good form, but his evil part was reincarnated, and EoZ showed Goku passing the torch to him(we'll see how that ends in Super, that damn torch never stays passed).
Cell needs some love. Hell, I'd even take the current time-line's Cell that was allegedly destroyed in Gero's lab. Imagine if the supercomputer continued gathering DNA throughout the rest of the series and part of Super.
Cell with the cells of Boo, Beerus and Whis and maybe even Dabra? What a fucking monster he'd be. This needs to happen.
Speaking of villains and Cell: In terms of likeability, and setting the villains from the 13 DBZ Movies aside, as they're non-canon, Cell has always had a particular appeal to me, especially in Perfect form. From the 3 major villains presented in the 3 main arcs throughout DBZ (if we included the real evil, maniacal, genocidal, psychotic villains from DB, we'd have only Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo himself), Cell is indeed the only one who hasn't been given any time after he was killed. We can understand the reason to bring Freeza back, he's so charismatic a villain that he's constantly referenced throughout the later arcs in DBZ and had a large number of cameos in Movies and even the Majin Buu arc in DBZ, along with an entire movie entirely dedicated to his revival (Fukkatsu no F), and as for Majin Buu, we have his fat version among the team AFTER Kid Buu was killed off, so he's still there. Cell, who works as the link between Freeza and Majin Buu at all levels, is really the only one who had his full time during the Cell arc and was subsequently "forgotten".
As far as the MAJOR villains go, my LEAST favorite one is Majin Buu, especially in his fat form. He's just too likeable a character to be taken seriously, which is the entire reason why they changed his design later on during the saga. If you include DB, Piccolo Daimao is right there at the top (I think my kanji in my avatar says it all, and I even have it tattooed on my chest). If you include the ones who weren't the main villains throughout a particular arc, you'd have to include the likes of Zarbon, Dodoria, the Ginyu Tokusentai, #19, Dr. Gero, #17, #18, Dabura, just to name the most prominent ones, and even Vegeta, who was initially introduced as basically a smaller version of Freeza (proud, evil, ruthless, a killing machine and apparently unbeatable).
The way I view it, the arcs should be divided this way, along with the respective main villain(s):
Piccolo Daimao arc - Piccolo Daimao
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc - Piccolo
Saiya-jin arc - Vegeta
Freeza arc - Freeza
Jinzouningen arc - #17 and #18
Cell arc - Cell
Majin Buu arc - Majin/Kid Buu
There are two additional main villains, who can be found in the Trunks Special: Future #17 and Future #18
The perfect villain is Freeza, since you can end up really hating him (he's evil, ruthless, proud, egotistical, maniacal, genocidal, uncaring, racist and sadistic). Not a single trace of goodness or respect towards life other than his own inside of him. Hence his place as arguably the most charismatic villain in all of Dragonball. In a way, that makes him my favorite villain, but there are other factors on which to judge that position, and Cell just has some sort of appeal in terms of the class + power combo that should make him extremely attractive, although he's just as egotistical, evil and ruthless as the others (in his first form, he absorbs millions of humans in a horrific way through his tail, and in his second form he murders thousands of people by destroying islands in an uncaring manner in search for #18). Kid Buu can't even really be deemed "evil", he just destroys everything and everyone in sight out of sheer pleasure, he probably doesn't even understand the concept of "right" or "wrong", he's just a force of nature whose only purpose is to destroy.
I highly doubt there's 1% of probability of it ever happening in the near future, in DBSuper or anywhere else, but I would more than welcome the concept of having Cell back at least for a few episodes.
If you include the Movies, then obviously Brolly has to be considered the most charismatic villain, since he's just a force of nature, supposed to be next-to-invincible and absolutely psychotic. I also like the concept of Tullece, Cooler (to some degree) and Janenba, and I regard their respective movies (Movie 3, Movie 5 and Movie 12), along with Movie 8, as my favorite/the best ones, despite their non-canonness and their depiction of "what-if" scenarios based on the exploring of potentially interesting concepts/villains/events with a rushed plot.
I have some sort of fascination with demons/hell/the devil, so I've always had a special place for Dabura as well.
Not including Beerus in this, as he can't really be deemed "evil". Nor "good", either". He's neutral, no one's ally, he's been tasked with a "mission" and merely sees to it that it's done, with a few whims over trivial matters that cause him to destroy a little bit more than he was supposed to. However, he's laid-back, displays many comic characteristics and behaviors and is even gentle/polite, especially in BoG. Additionally, he's such a strange entity that he probably lacks the same understanding of "right" or "wrong" as normal, emotional beings have. It's not that he doesn't understand that, it's that he's BEYOND that. Whis doesn't seem to disapprove of any of his apparently "evil" actions, which further strengthens the theory. The concept of his personality/being is totally new in Dragonball prior to his introduction, which is part of his success among the fans, including myself.
If I had to make an absolute list of my all-time favorite characters, I'd have to go with:
1 - Vegeta
2 - Piccolo
3 - Tenshinhan
(Interestingly enough, all of them share a background of having been evil in the past and having turned good, although the pace at which they do it differs radically from each other; in Tenshinhan's case, all it takes is a few advices from Muten Roshi and one arc, in Piccolo's case, despite never discarding his seriousness and anti-social behavior, he goes from being a maniacal demon to a full-fledged good guy having all but lost all traces of evil in his heart in two or three arcs (by the Jinzouningen arc his transition is complete), while in Vegeta's case the progression is much more gradual and incremental, he was first introduced as a full-fledged villain, he displays some respect towards the Earthlings by refraining from killing them on Namek and making an alliance with them, he joins the gang in the Jinzouningen arc and has a son with Bulma - "the bad guy among the good guys" - and has his final instance of really evil wrongdoing in the early Majin Buu arc, letting himself become possessed by Babidi and killing hundreds or thousands of people at the stadium; after that, his transition is also complete and all that remains is his obsession to surpass Kakarotto and all fighters, to become number one in the Universe, his pride and his natural anti-social behavior and difficulty to adapt to times of peace, apart from his deep-down love for his family and life in general.
4 - Piccolo Daimao (could be higher up, it's a tough call)
5 - Cell
6 - Goku (yes, he's this low in my list and despite instances in which I found myself enthusiastically cheering for him as the sole ray of hope for defeating a particular villain - especially Freeza, given the circumstances -, I found myself smiling at the times in which he took a major beating at the hands of Piccolo Daimao and Beerus). I do admire him and his willingness, as a pure Saiya-jin, to keep overcoming his obstacles, adversaries and his own limits, which he does on a virtually infinite number of occasions, only to be found outclassed again and having to surpass himself yet once more, starting the entire process all over again, just like Vegeta, who despite having surpassed a number of warriors who had been previously stronger than him (Zarbon, Dodoria, Recoome, Ginyu, Freeza, #18, Cell) also had his own fair share of major ass-kickings (Zarbon, Recoome, Freeza, #18, Cell) after proclaiming himself - again - the strongest fighter in the entire Universe.
7 - Dabura
8 - Tullece (if you include the movies)
Never been a fan of Gohan, except when he lost it, went Super Saiya-jin 2 and thrashed the Cell Juniors and Cell himself. Before that, he's a crybaby, and after that, he's a nerd more focused on studying and being overly-polite and well-spoken and well-mannered than tapping onto his immeasurable potential as a warrior.
Doctor. wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
150 THOUSAND times gravity or 150G?
Because the latter is what would make more sense.
Honestly I haven't rewatched the episode yet, I'd be able to tell you if I listened to what he says again. But it should be pointed out that as early as the Jinzouningen arc, he's shown training in the gravity room under a pressure of 300 and then 400, so 150 should be nothing for him by now (hence the possibility of 150.000). I'll just need to watch the episode again and I'll let you know, if nobody else does it before me.
Yea, but he was struggling with 150x in the past episode. What makes sense is that he'd be able to conquer 150G easily after a few hours/days of training, not suddenly jumping to handling 150,000G without a sweat.
Yeah, but I've edited my last reply. Please check it and watch the episode. Depending on what he says, we should be able to understand if it's 150 or 150.000.
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Sandubadear wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
150 THOUSAND times gravity or 150G?
Because the latter is what would make more sense.
Honestly I haven't rewatched the episode yet, I'd be able to tell you if I listened to what he says again. But it should be pointed out that as early as the Jinzouningen arc, he's shown training in the gravity room under a pressure of 300 and then 400, so 150 should be nothing for him by now (hence the possibility of 150.000). I'll just need to watch the episode again and I'll let you know, if nobody else does it before me.
"Sen" is 1.000, "Yaku" is 100, "gojiu" is 50, but then "man" is 10.000. If he says "Ichi yaku gojiu" then it's 150, and the right way to say 150.000 would be - I think - "Jiugo man" (literally, fifteen ten-thousands).
He says "hyaku go ju bai *something* ryoku". I asked because in one crappy fansub I found, its translated as "the battle power of 150,000 is now useless..."
"bai" means "multiplication" or "multiplicated by", and "hyaku go jiu" means 150. Then I guess it should be something along the lines of training under 150G (which is indeed useless to him at this stage). It has nothing to do with battle powers, though, don't let those fansubs fool you, there's plenty of mistakes and badly-translated lines to them, sometimes changing the entire meaning of the sentence altogether to the point where it doesn't even make sense.
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Ok, just rewatched the episode solely for the purpose of understanding what Vegeta said, regardless of the ridiculous fansubs. He basically says "the gravity pull of 150x is no longer fitting for training for someone at my stage".
He does say "yaku go jiu go-bai jyuroku mo" etc., etc., ("the 150x gravity", or "gravity multiplied by 150"). If it were 150.000, it would be "jiu go man", literally "fifteen ten-thousands", as "man" means 10.000 ("man" = 10.000, "sen" = 1.000, "yaku" = 100", "jiu" = 10).
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Sandubadear wrote:
btw the sponsor-y thing at the end of the episode is cute. Is that Maron's voice?
That's Goku's voice actor (or rather, actress) doing Goten's voice.
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Doctor., check the previous page, I managed to clear the doubts surrounding what Vegeta says in the gravity room.
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[quote="MaGyunia"]Collecting all of my thoughts/reviews/positions on this particular episode which I wrote separately in different, small posts right after the episode ended airing:
- Far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but we'll get compensated for that in the next episode, which, up until yesterday, I thought wouldn't be almost entirely dedicated to the fight between Goku and Beerus (and it will).
- Difference between BoG and DBSuper: Pilaf not automatically and immediately making a connection with Goku from their early DB adventures upon seeing Goten, which was to be expected after what we saw in BoG.
- The thick outlining looks "tasty", and we'll almost certainly get a number of different animation teams for DBSuper's episodes (although nowhere near the number of different animations teams for DB and DBZ, which was over 10 and worked in the episodes on a very easily identifiable alternate basis, if you understand what I mean by "alternate").
- It had been pointed out by almost all of us that the thick outlining we saw in some shots of the third episode's preview reminded us immediately and automatically of the animation of Movie 12, particularly the somewhat comic fight between Goten + Trunks against Hitler and Mr. Satan vs the zombies, but I wouldn't want an entire series of Dragonball animated that way. Just too unreal.
- We're done with the process of (re)introducing the characters in the first smooth family-oriented episodes, and that was a clever move to start off the series with (while at the same time presenting us with chilling/mysterious appearances by Beerus and Whis, just at the right pace), but now, at episode 5, it's time to start the serious fighting and actually (re)watch Goku get utterly dominated by Beerus. The minute the fight took in BoG was nothing to complain about, but it's definitely possible to extend the fight just the right way while at the same time displaying Beerus' enormous edge over Goku by having him barely react to ANY of Goku's attacks, and finally rendering him unconscious just as easily as he did in the movie.
- We had already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's training in the gravity room before (Jinzouningen arc, episode 124, Bulma), but this time it's an employee "Vegeta-sama" (not even "-san", she actually adds "-sama" to his name (!), probably out of a combination between respect and especially FEAR) Vegeta couldn't care less about, instead of someone he can and does occasionally cut some slack (namely, and especially, his immediate human family).
- Interesting to note just how much of a difference there is between the leverage Bulma has over Vegeta when compared to the (non-existant) leverage most other living beings do. The employee is treated rudely, as would be expectectable by Vegeta, especially in a setting in which she dares to interrupt his training, but as soon as Bulma scolds him, no matter how utterly important his training sessions are to him, he just can't say no to her. This is a perfect way to show just how the once proud, previously utterly evil and ruthless Saiya-jin prince restraints his natural violent/anti-social tendencies when it comes to dealing with the concept of a family and living beings who actually mean something to him deep down, perhaps even better than having him lose it over her being slapped or over Cell killing Mirai no Trunks in the late stage of the Cell Games, which is just too expectable and predictable.
One thing I've never mentioned regarding the content of DBSuper so far is how little time Piccolo - as one of my two favorite character from the entire Dragonball Universe - has been getting. I understand there's not a lot of time or reason for him to show up other than in serious/dramatic circumstances which demand both power and wisdom/intelligence, but he's been getting entirely an awful lot less time than I'd like it. It's the very first time I mentioned this ever in here, regarding DBSuper, but I'll guess we'll somewhat be also compensated for it when Beerus encounters the fighters on Earth and Piccolo, among the others, will have his shot at Beerus. I like the concept of having him rendered unconscious with two pressure-point touches to his body, but nevermind that, I want him to land more than a single kick (although I want his attacks, just like that of almost all others, to get blocked just as easily and effortlessly as they were in BoG).
Not going to go AGAIN into the whole "retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make Uub non-canon, etc.". It's been debated to death. Pretty much every single theory as been presented in the last days and weeks on that subject. We'll just have to wait and see how exactly they handle it, just like we'll have to wait to see exactly at what time and in what circumstances Champa (and his attendant) will be introduced, and just what his relationship to Beerus is, although also in this department pretty much every possible theory has already been postulated recently in the last few days.[/quote]
Small thought I had forgotten in this full review:
- In BoG, Kaiou-sama goes to great lengths to hide anything that has to do with Beerus-sama from Goku while talking to Kibitoshin, but in the episode not only does it NOT do any effort to conceal it from Goku, he's actually the one who right off the bat tells him about the name and who/what he is without displaying any concerns over the possibility of Goku getting excited about it and a subsequent and consequent fight that could trigger Beerus' anger. Major change between BoG and DBSuper in this case.
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MaGyunia wrote:
Collecting all of my thoughts/reviews/positions on this particular episode which I wrote separately in different, small posts right after the episode ended airing:
- Far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but we'll get compensated for that in the next episode, which, up until yesterday, I thought wouldn't be almost entirely dedicated to the fight between Goku and Beerus (and it will).
- Difference between BoG and DBSuper: Pilaf not automatically and immediately making a connection with Goku from their early DB adventures upon seeing Goten, which was to be expected after what we saw in BoG.
- The thick outlining looks "tasty", and we'll almost certainly get a number of different animation teams for DBSuper's episodes (although nowhere near the number of different animations teams for DB and DBZ, which was over 10 and worked in the episodes on a very easily identifiable alternate basis, if you understand what I mean by "alternate").
- It had been pointed out by almost all of us that the thick outlining we saw in some shots of the third episode's preview reminded us immediately and automatically of the animation of Movie 12, particularly the somewhat comic fight between Goten + Trunks against Hitler and Mr. Satan vs the zombies, but I wouldn't want an entire series of Dragonball animated that way. Just too unreal.
- We're done with the process of (re)introducing the characters in the first smooth family-oriented episodes, and that was a clever move to start off the series with (while at the same time presenting us with chilling/mysterious appearances by Beerus and Whis, just at the right pace), but now, at episode 5, it's time to start the serious fighting and actually (re)watch Goku get utterly dominated by Beerus. The minute the fight took in BoG was nothing to complain about, but it's definitely possible to extend the fight just the right way while at the same time displaying Beerus' enormous edge over Goku by having him barely react to ANY of Goku's attacks, and finally rendering him unconscious just as easily as he did in the movie.
- We had already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's training in the gravity room before (Jinzouningen arc, episode 124, Bulma), but this time it's an employee "Vegeta-sama" (not even "-san", she actually adds "-sama" to his name (!), probably out of a combination between respect and especially FEAR) Vegeta couldn't care less about, instead of someone he can and does occasionally cut some slack (namely, and especially, his immediate human family).
- Interesting to note just how much of a difference there is between the leverage Bulma has over Vegeta when compared to the (non-existant) leverage most other living beings do. The employee is treated rudely, as would be expectectable by Vegeta, especially in a setting in which she dares to interrupt his training, but as soon as Bulma scolds him, no matter how utterly important his training sessions are to him, he just can't say no to her. This is a perfect way to show just how the once proud, previously utterly evil and ruthless Saiya-jin prince restraints his natural violent/anti-social tendencies when it comes to dealing with the concept of a family and living beings who actually mean something to him deep down, perhaps even better than having him lose it over her being slapped or over Cell killing Mirai no Trunks in the late stage of the Cell Games, which is just too expectable and predictable.
One thing I've never mentioned regarding the content of DBSuper so far is how little time Piccolo - as one of my two favorite character from the entire Dragonball Universe - has been getting. I understand there's not a lot of time or reason for him to show up other than in serious/dramatic circumstances which demand both power and wisdom/intelligence, but he's been getting entirely an awful lot less time than I'd like it. It's the very first time I mentioned this ever in here, regarding DBSuper, but I'll guess we'll somewhat be also compensated for it when Beerus encounters the fighters on Earth and Piccolo, among the others, will have his shot at Beerus. I like the concept of having him rendered unconscious with two pressure-point touches to his body, but nevermind that, I want him to land more than a single kick (although I want his attacks, just like that of almost all others, to get blocked just as easily and effortlessly as they were in BoG).
Not going to go AGAIN into the whole "retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make Uub non-canon, etc.". It's been debated to death. Pretty much every single theory as been presented in the last days and weeks on that subject. We'll just have to wait and see how exactly they handle it, just like we'll have to wait to see exactly at what time and in what circumstances Champa (and his attendant) will be introduced, and just what his relationship to Beerus is, although also in this department pretty much every possible theory has already been postulated recently in the last few days.
Small thought I had forgotten in this full review:
- In BoG, Kaiou-sama goes to great lengths to hide anything that has to do with Beerus-sama from Goku while talking to Kibitoshin, but in the episode not only does it NOT do any effort to conceal it from Goku, he's actually the one who right off the bat tells him about the name and who/what he is without displaying any concerns over the possibility of Goku getting excited about it and a subsequent and consequent fight that could trigger Beerus' anger. Major change between BoG and DBSuper in this case.
Doctor. wrote:
I missed it, yea thanks. It was nothing too extreme as I thought, and just some random fuck up by a translation, now sure how they'd mess up something so seemingly simple.
They never really put a lot of effort into the quality of their fansubs. They understand bits and pieces of what's being said and then make up whatever they believe they're saying, most of the times coming up with ridiculously wrong meanings, which just demonstrates their lack of in-depth knowledge of what's going on and Dragonball in general.
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Chuquita wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Muffin Man wrote:
I'll be extremely baffled if they ignore the ending of Z with Super, simply because of the fact that they DIDN'T ignore EoZ just this year when they were finishing up DB Kai. Why would they include those last two episodes in Kai only to pretend they don't exist in the follow-up series that they were planning to air immediately after? It would make no sense.
Kai was produced way before they thought of doing super which was in late 2012/early 2013.
This is also why I think it's plausible that they could ignore EoZ. There's no rule saying they have to tie Super to Kai, especially now that Kai's pretty much retired and was conceived ahead of all of the recent plot developments from BOG and F.
Kai having shown the introduction of Uub at its very end should bear no relevance to whether the last 3 episodes of DBZ will be changed/made "non-canon" or not, even if the event was shown just a few months ago. If they do retcon that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub it will be for entirely different reasons, it's got nothing to do with Kai. Kai was a nice concept of presenting DBZ in its entirety without all the filler material it's... filled with, in a period of years (2009 to 2011 and then 2014 to 2015) when we/they were in a pretty strong process of revitalization of Dragonball, beginning in 2008 with Tarble's special (and then Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F), which all eventually led to a full-fledged series (regardless of the events it depicts in its first arcs), the first one we got in 18 years.
Personally, I'd like them to "erase" Uub from "canonness" as far as the series' timeline goes, and I bet that if Toriyama could go back in time, and if he had the strength to put forth his visions back in 1996 like he does now (he was at that time pretty tired and consumed after so many years of creative process of coming up with ideas for characters, events, etc., for DB and DBZ, and wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible, in whatever way he thought first, after the titanic battle(s) in the Majin Buu arc and the final defeat of Kid Buu just 3 episodes before that), he would most definitely have chosen another road. Like I always say, whatever happens during the Beerus and Freeza arcs within DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, 10 years later, if they don't touch it, and since they've made BoG and Fukkatsu no F basically "non-canon" only 2 years and a few months after they came out, respectively, I don't see a problem in touching and changing the last 3 episodes of DBZ, regardless of how long ago they was made. Not all of DBZ is "untouchable". Uub has never appealed to me and I regard that ending as a hastily-made way to end the series in a hopeful/cheerful light as soon as possible, and I even grant the concept, in its roots, some potential, but it failed to deliver in those episodes (let alone in GT, whose quality is laughable for a variety of reasons).
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I honestly think that the most likely scenario is that DBSuper and all of its arcs (Beerus, Freeza, 6th Universe) and the events depicted in all of them will be placed within the 10 year gap between the defeat of Kid Buu and the last 3 episodes of DBZ. It's not about what I'd like to happen, it's about what's most likely to occur given the circumstances. As a result of that, the last Tenkaichi Budokai of DBZ and Uub's introduction will remain unchanged and canon. The original "mistake" (that's my personal opinion, I know it's not shared by many DBZ fans) was made back in 1996, not now.
However, if we do get another series and/or canon movies after DBSuper, they'll eventually choose to pick up on the timing AFTER that Tenkaichi Budokai and Goku's leaving off with Uub to train him, and they'll basically partially or totally try to "redo" GT.
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I'd be extremely disappointed if at some point in the future, a few years from now, they did a series even partially focusing on Goku's training of Uub, or revolving around Uub at all. And I think that Uub, although remaining canon, will never be a major character, I bet Toriyama almost forgot he invented him.
We need to understand that the concept of Uub was introduced weeks after the defeat of Kid Buu. He's intrinsically linked to Kid Buu, and the entire titanic Majin Buu arc was far too much present in everyone's minds at the moment of Uub's introduction and the last 3 episodes of DBZ. That's not the case anymore, that was 19 years ago. The events of the Majin Buu saga, although the last ones in DBZ, are just as "ancient" as all others depicted in the original series in the 80's and 90's.
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Fansubs are never the way to go, both for legal reasons and for purposes of proper translation and understanding by the fans.
Even if you're not like me and didn't go for nearly a decade watching every single episode of DBZ (and most of the later stages of DB) in Japanese almost on a daily basis for hundreds of times, and relating what I'm hearing to the subtitles, ending up finding myself having learned enough Japanese to the point where I don't really need subtitles to pretty much understand every single line in an episode, you should wait for proper subtitles while in the meantime trying to understand as much as you can, both alone and/or with the help of other fans.
The ridiculous quality of most hastily-done fansubs gave us an example in the aftermath of this last episode, where they mistranslated "150x gravity", or "gravity multiplied by 150x" for "battle power of 150" (check a few pages before this one in this thread, I had to rewatch the episode solely for the purpose of clearing out the doubts generated by that ridiculous mistranslation. That's just the latest example, we could literally pick a thousand other ones.
They never really put a lot of effort into the quality of their subs. They understand bits and pieces of what's being said and then make up whatever they believe they're saying, most of the times coming up with ridiculously wrong meanings (sometimes, or most of the times, even in incorrect English, further undermining their credibility), which just demonstrates their lack of in-depth knowledge of what's going on and Dragonball in general.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I still doubt any characters from DBZ Movies 1-13 will show off like Broli, Coola and Tapion. They are from movies that are over 20 years old. Most kids and casual TV watchers most likely have no idea who are they. I think it would be rather confusing if Broli just show up out of nowhere in Super.
I fully agree. The 13 DBZ movies were made for commercial purposes, depicting "what-if" scenarios and exploring and expanding upon a bit on non-canon characters and settings with some potential to them, but, even taking into account the length of ANY movie, the story could never be too good. The CONCEPT of SOME events and characters, though, was worth exploring in its core. Some failed miserably, others were excellent (Brolly's Movie 8 is just one of the good ones, personally my favorite ones besides that one are Movie 3, Movie 5 and Movie 12). It's rather obvious that they'll do more movies and/or an entire full-fledged series years from now, after DBSuper, regardless of the timing it will be set in, but the scenario of getting ANY character from the 13 Movies (re)introduced back into future movies/series seems just too far-fetched to me. Even the characters introduced in the "second round" of Dragonball after 11 years of inactivity, like Tarble, who was considered to be canon along with BoG and Fukkatsu no F up until a few weeks/months ago, are most likely NOT going to make an appearance in the future, regardless of popular demand, or lack thereof.
In DBSuper, it's becoming more and more entirely obvious that after the first 2/3 smooth, family-oriented episodes dedicated to (re)introduce most of the main/supporting characters who belong to the history of DB and DBZ, we'll move on to the Beerus arc, which will be a retelling of the events of BoG in pretty much almost the exact same circumstances, although at a different timing, in no more than 10-12 episodes, and then we'll get one or two lighter episodes without any serious "menace", pretty much along the lines of the in-between episodes we got throughout DBZ between major arcs, then we'll move on to the Freeza arc, which should itself be covered also in no more than 10-12 episodes, so, according to the estimates we already did a few days ago, we should be moving on the third major arc (6th Universe) by episode 23/25. It would be purely speculative and an exercise of futility to, at this point, even try to estimate how many episodes the 6th Universe arc will last and where and when it will end in the series' timeline, and there's even the possibility of yet another follow-up arc to that. We just don't know what the future of DBSuper in the long run (and I mean, 2016, maybe even 2017) will be, nor can we make any rough estimates of the total number of episodes the series will consist of, because we simply lack any information to base any theory on.
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Hugo Boss wrote:
Did Vegeta say a battle power of 150,000 was useless in the DBS Episode #4 or it was a sub error? I don't speak Japanese, but I could say he was instead talking about the 150G training.
He said "yaku go jiu go-bai jyuroku mo" etc., etc., ("the 150x gravity", or "gravity multiplied by 150"). If it were 150.000, it would be "jiu go man", literally "fifteen ten-thousands", as "man" means 10.000 ("man" = 10.000, "sen" = 1.000, "yaku" = 100", "jiu" = 10). He's referring to the 150G gravity pull, basically stating that it's no longer fitting for training someone at his stage, as he can barely feel it at this point. Again, no attention should be paid to fansubs, especially hastily-made ones. Their creators lack the knowledge to understand what they're talking about and result is disastrous.
There are plenty of mistakes in fansubs and badly-translated lines to them, sometimes changing the entire meaning of a particular sentence altogether, to the point where it doesn't even make sense and/or confuses fans who really can't make out any Japanese.
The process of fansubbing basically consists of understand bits and pieces of what's being said and then making up whatever they believe they're saying, most of the times coming up with ridiculously wrong meanings (sometimes, or most of the times, even in incorrect English, further undermining their credibility), which just demonstrates their lack of in-depth knowledge of what's going on and Dragonball in general.
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Well, yeah, there's absolutely no comparison between the technological circumstances back in the 80's and 90's and 2015. I've been a fan since 1993/1994, when DB and DBZ were first dubbed in Spain (it only came to my country, Portugal, in 1996, and grown adults were skipping university classes to watch the episodes). Up until the mid-2000s, it was impossible to find original Japanese videos of DBZ with at least medium-quality, I had to hang on to a list of Japanese clips with absolutely awful quality for a few years. It was only after FUNImation ended their sequence of releases of DBZ DVDs with dual audio that it was possible to watch the entire series in high quality, and something which just years before was pretty much unreachable even in medium-quality became readily available to pretty much everyone around the world, even non-DBZ fans.
I don't really care how much money the creators of Dragonball make, I'm sure they make enough, but yeah, I can kind of sympathize with the lack of readiness and availability/accessibility of DBSuper. I mean, it's Dragonball, for f***'s sake, and it's the first series to see the light of day in 18 years. I myself am not personally too bothered with the lack of subs, due to the reasons I stated in my previous post in this thread, but I can sympathize with those who just can't follow the episodes' plot and what lines the characters are saying in Japanese at all.
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TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
They didn't explain how the Pilaf gang became children, did they? I'm not sure why they cut out that from the movie.
No, they didn't. To be fair though, there hasn't yet been a scene equivalent to the one where it was revealed in the film. We may still get Pilaf complaining about being children and explaining about their previous wish if/when they start to scour the boat for the Dragon Balls. We may also get the gang reacting to Goten's hair and face once they find the prizes as well, but it won't really have any of the impact the film version did by this point since they've already been interacting.
The only acceptable way to make the connection between the reemergence of Pilaf and the first half of DB was to have him, Shu and Mai react in sheer terror immediately upon seeing Goten. There are stuff that could and should be changed, or at least expanded upon in DBSuper when compared to BoG, but there's also stuff that shouldn't be changed, and that's one of them.
My main complaint about the episode was that there was just too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang. Unlike most of you, Pilaf and whatever revolves around him has never appealed to me a lot, which is why I don't manifest my opinions about him the way I do about others. In fact, the only thing I'm grateful that he exists for is that he retrieved the Denshi Jar and released Piccolo Daimao, without which we would never have had Piccolo in DB and DBZ. :clap:
I pretty much don't give it too much thought about the large/overwhelming majority of characters who don't play a major role in terms of fighting.
Ah, one last thing about Pilaf: he's voiced by the same VA as Raditz (who also did Garlic Jr.'s voice in the Garlic Jr. arc in DBZ), who is just basically one of my favorite VA in the entirety of Dragonball. He has a deep, violent voice, fitting Raditz's character perfectly.
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Jerguy wrote:
I enjoyed the episode. It seems a lot of people are really impatient for the story to rush through but I look forward to a decent retelling of BoG and hopefully RoF as well. And of course whatever is to come with the different universes, etc.
It's amazing that we are able to watch this show within hours of the original broadcast, but have some patience with the story. I started watching DB in 1988, and had to wait every week for episodes to just watch in raw japanese. I was an Air Force brat and my father was stationed in Okinawa at the time and I lived for watching DB every week when it aired. I anticipate filler shows, and slow build to future things. I remember vividly watching nearly 2 years for the Namek saga to complete, between the sheer amount of episodes to the story, the Freeza fight in itself which was like 30+ episodes, and the occasional preemption due to a baseball game(which really sucked and resulted in waiting 2 weeks for episodes on occasion!) When I moved back to the states in 1991, it was 5 years until I was finally able to rediscover DB from some of the original sites, including the first incarnation of kanzenshuu that VegettoEX made(VegettoEX.com?) and the old #db IRC channel.
I do wish Toei would do a simulcast with subtitled releases, but I'm happy with what we can get. We are able for the first time to watch a new DB series together with the world. I'm happy to be able to watch in japanese rather than the english dubs which are nearly unwatchable for me being a purist. And not just because of the voices, but the Faulconer music was terrible in comparison to the original BGM in my opinion.
Quick question about episode 3, which I would've posted sooner but only recently got forum approval(thanks by the way!) Did Tenshinhan's get a new VA? He only had like 1 or 2 lines, but it didn't sound like the original.
Thanks!
Nice to find another purist AND someone else who's utterly disgusted at the first attempts by FUNImation to adapt DBZ (and that was indeed more of an adaptation than a mere dub, they "criminally" changed the original background music, they changed the plot, they made up stupid stuff changing the whole way we viewed the characters, they invented lines when there was supposed to be silence, etc., it was like watching an entirely different show apart from the animation being the same).
I "only" found DB in 1993/94, when it first started airing in Spain. When it came to Portugal in 1996 and the whole Dragonball-fever swept the country, I had already seen, memorized and recorded on VHS tapes the entire show with the Spanish dub, which I'm very fond of, as one of my strongest/most beautiful memories from childhood. I watched the episodes literally hundreds of times, back-to-back. There was one instance in 1993/1994 when I didn't have time to record a particular episode in the Freeza saga and I was frustrated to the point of crying over it.
I also deeply value the fact that we're, for the first time, able to watch an entire full-fledged new Dragonball series, with one episode every week(end) at the same time all around the world. You can actually watch it not hours after it airs, but in fact AS it airs. In the 80's and 90's this concept was entirely out of the question.
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DoomieDoomie911 wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Why would there be another movie when DB Super is doing everything now?
The same reason that there were movies during Z's run.
It's also hard to tell which version over rides which. DB Super has many differences from the BoG movie. Do we treat the BoG/RoF movies as alternate timelines like the other movies?
I think it's pretty much up to each individual as to what they consider canon. I don't think it will matter much in the long run.
In my view, DBSuper, as a full-fledged series, and particularly the Beerus and Freeza arcs within it, "overrides" (as you put it) both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and, as a result of that, they should be viewed as entirely "non-canon" (I mean, either an event, character, movie or special is canon or it isn't, there's no in-between), much in the same way all of DB's 4 Movies, DBZ's 13 Movies (except, from a certain perspective, Movie 9) and the entirety of GT (all of them depicting "what-if" scenarios and exploring some characters and events with some potential to them, and also having been made for obvious commercial purposes).
It's only a matter of personal position, but I want there to be just one and only main timeline, (except the ones additional, future ones generated during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs), for purposes of simplification and exactness, to which events can be eventually added and taken at any point.
There's no established logic to be followed here by anyone and Toei and Toriyama did come up with a few surprising takes very recently, with their decisions to make movies/specials, announcing them as canon, and then "decanonizing" them soon after with a sudden, surprising announcement of a new series 19 years (!) after the last one happened. I'm just theorizing here, but it could be that their intention all along with the process of revitalization of Dragonball with the 2008 special, Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F was all intended to function as a preparation of the entire Dragonball-fandom to the final real meat: a new series (eventually, but quite soon), but I think the theory collapses after you look at the sequence of events back in 2012/2013, as Toriyama expressly announced BoG, at the time of its conception/marketing/release as a canon continuation of the events in DBZ after the defeat of Kid Buu (and the 2008 special was made canon as well, by implication, as Tarble is mentioned in BoG itself by Bulma).
It may be hard to accept that the events depicted in BoG and Fukkatsu no F are no longer canon, as in, they never actually "happened" (no matter how close the retelling of the events depicted in them in DBSuper will be to the way they were presented in the movies themselves), especially after we all went through the process of accepting the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of DBZ, after 11 years of Dragonball inactivity; having to reverse the entire thing, especially so soon after each movie was released (2 years and a few months, respectively) was both weird AND difficult, but I'm well over that by now. One of the things that we over-discussed in here before the series debuted was the need (or if it was the right way to do it or not) for telling almost the exact same events in DBSuper when compared to BoG, in pretty much the exact same circumstances with some changes and natural additions here and there, although at a different timing. With this in mind, and if there's any logic to their decisions, we can only postulate that they initially intended BoG to be THE real canon continuation of DBZ's Majin Buu arc before they even thought of another series, and after the movie did so well at all levels and they realized just how much potential Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God had, coupled with their decision to go for an entirely new series, mixed/amalgamated everything into one big move: to indeed go further with a full-fledged series, but having the first part(s) of it retelling the events, characters and stages of BoG retold/(re)introduced without the time restraints typical of a movie (even a larger one), which would mean that, if they could back in time, they probably would have chosen NOT to release BoG at all and instead have Beerus, Whis and the rest of the characters and events depicted in the movie introduced for the very first time in the series, since a large chunk of fans is and will continue to be complaining about how disappointing it is to dedicate some 10-12 episodes to retelling events which we've already seen in the movie, with some minor changes and additions here and there, and they must pretty be aware of that degree of disappointment, or at least they're capable of foreseeing it.
It's not the first time I undertake this pretty simple exercise, but until further notice, this is the sequence of canon events in the Dragonball Universe (not counting off-screen events which happened thousands or millions of years ago, referred to throughout DBZ, but only events which we've actually seen on-screen):
1 - Bardock Special
2- DB
3 - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs
4 - (alternate timeline) Trunks Special
5 - DBZ Jinzouningen and Cell arcs
6 - Movie 9 (debatable)
7 - Majin Buu arc
8 - First two/three episodes of DBSuper
9 - DBSuper's Beerus arc
10 - DBSuper's Freeza arc
11 - DBSuper's 6th Universe arc
12 - last 3 episodes of DBZ (we've also been over-debating whether or not they'll retcon that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub both in this thread and in others as well, but at this particular stage they remain canon, as nothing so far indicates otherwise - that shouldn't mean they won't retcon it or completely "erase" those events from the timeline entirely in the rather near future, though)
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sailorspazz wrote:
LuckyCat wrote:
Jerguy wrote:
Quick question about episode 3, which I would've posted sooner but only recently got forum approval(thanks by the way!) Did Tenshinhan's get a new VA? He only had like 1 or 2 lines, but it didn't sound like the original.
Hirotaka Suzuoki is the original actor and was replaced by Mitsuaki Madono when Suzuoki died in 2006.
Mitsuaki Madono played Tenshinhan briefly for some of the video games. The main replacement actor from Dragon Ball Kai onward has been Hikaru Midorikawa (who also played #16 and Paikuhan)
The original is (usually) the best, and this applies to the replacement of Muten Roshi's VA after the first one died in the 90's - he had a lot of charisma to him -, to the replacement of Tenshinhan's VA (the one who did his voice throughout DBZ was fantastic, he had a serious, deep voice fitting Tenshinhan's stoic character perfectly) and, more recently, to the replacement of the VA for Kami (and, implicitly, Piccolo Daimao); regarding this last one, his evil, maniacal, psychotic laughter as Piccolo Daimao in DB in the late 80's, after killing/destroying someone or something, was more than charismatic, it had a severe impact in the deepest recesses of my personality. I've got his Kanji symbol tattooed in my chest; if I go around bare-chested and get stopped by Japanese tourists they'll read "Ma" and either they'll laugh at it or they'll recognize it as Piccolo Daimao's and the Mazoku's symbol.
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irreality wrote:
Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).
I actually once made an entire list of all the 13 Movies describing when each one WOULD fit in the series' timeline, and what events would have to be changed in order to make them possible, and I included both Movie 9 AND Movie 13, but it turned out I did it in a bit of a rush and didn't remember that they had used the Dragon Balls in that movie, which would make it impossible for them to use them again right after that (to erase the memory of Majin Buu from Earthlings) and again in the movie, which, if it had taken place, would have done so a few weeks/months right after the defeat of Kid Buu.
I'll try to get the entire exercise depicting how exactly each one of the 13 Movies COULD have taken place (as in, what circumstances would have to change when compared to the actual, canon ones), though. It was a fun thing to do.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
The only thing that stood out in this episode was the fact that Pilaf did not confuse Goten with Goku. I found that weird. I didn't mind the art; it was pretty good, actually. That said, if they were going to spend so much screen time on Pilaf, they should have provided flashbacks on what he had been up to since DB, including his wish for youth. Might as well go all out with the character.
Not much else to say. It's the sort of episode that you'd tell anyone to skip. Nothing worth seeing here.
Seems like everyone, including me, was observational enough to notice that one of the things they SHOULDN'T have changed when compared to the BoG version of the Beerus events was the fact that Pilaf (along with Mai and Shu) was supposed to automatically and immediately recognize Goku's hairstyle upon laying his eyes on Goten. Yeah, that was more than an unnecessary change, it was just plain silly.
Regarding the art, I find it "tasty", but not for DBZ. It's been pointed out to death that it was used in Movie 12 when Goten + Trunks fight Hitler and Mr. Satan fights the zombies, but that was deliberately to emphasize the comic aspect of those scenes. I wouldn't mind watching hours-long of another thing like that, but I don't want Dragonball drawn/animated that way. It's just too unreal and a little bit childish.
Again, too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but, also again, we'll get compensated for that in episode 5, which will be battle-packed, with a somewhat stretched version of the fight seen in BoG (in the movie, it takes Beerus one minute to KO Goku if you count from Goku's very first charge, and although they'll obviously not dedicate the entirety of the episode to the acquaintance + fight, it's obvious from episode 4's preview that the whole interaction - acquaintance + fight - will last at least for half the episode). Things will finally get serious in the fighting department.
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Doctor. wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
irreality wrote:
Why not include movie 13, Wrath of the Dragon, if you include Movie 9? It could happen right before Super without contradiction, I think (unless they give a precise date in the movie).
Movie 13 can't fit now since there is no way that Hoi can make his wish to free Tapion out of the box so soon after the last wish was made. It would take months after the last wish was made for the Dragon Ball's to return back to normal.
If Super takes place 4 years after Boo like BoG did, then it can still fit in.
But it doesn't, it takes place 6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu. Besides, if Movie 13 happened at all after any stage of DBSuper, why would Vegeta suddenly change back to his Majin Buu arc clothes, which is pretty obvious he only chose for the Tenkaichi Budokai and was stuck with them for the rest of the saga, and why would Goku use his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage? It COULD take place right after Kid Buu's defeat if it hadn't been for the inconsistency with the usage of the Dragon Balls Hellspawn28 and I mentioned.
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Zombie wrote:
You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.
How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.
Doctor. wrote:
If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.
Or it just means that they're changing the timing at which Pan is actually born, thus retconning the last episodes of DBZ, after having already changed the timing at which events take place in BoG.
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I found the exercise I did a few weeks ago on the movies and under which circumstances each one of them would have taken place (and when).
As you can see, I originally didn't include neither Movie 9 nor Movie 13 because at that time I considered them to produce no inconsistencies with the series' timeline at all (hence, it could be said that they "happened").
Here it goes (it's the original thing, I haven't touched any of its shortcomings):
All the others WOULD have "happened" in the following circumstances:
Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.
Movie 2 - It WOULD have happened IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc, since he uses Kaio Ken in the movie.
Movie 3 - IF there had been an additional Saiya-jin to have survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta and later came to Earth to find Kakarotto. It WOULD have taken place IF Goku had beaten Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiya-jin arc before Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu and Piccolo died.
Movie 4 - IF there had been an additional Namek-sei-jin who survived the extreme weather conditions on the planet that led to Piccolo being sent to Earth and IF Goku and the others somehow had managed to either beat Freeza after Piccolo is resurrected and Vegeta dies but before he became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin or had left Namek before that, for some reason.
Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.
Movie 6 - IF Cooler ever existed. It WOULD take place right before the Jinzouningen arc, in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero
Movie 7 - IF the only two Jinzouningen which actually ever existed had been #19 and Dr. Gero (no #16, no #17, no #18, no Cell), and after either Goku or Vegeta and Piccolo had beaten them. It would have happened right after that.
Movie 8 - IF two additional Saiya-jin had survived the genocide of the race and the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and IF one of them WOULD just happen to be the Legendary Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD have happened if Paragas came to Earth during the 10 day-period between Cell's announcement of the Cell Games and the Cell Games themselves, after Goku and Gohan leave the RoSaT, since Gohan is a Super Saiya-jin.
Movie 10 - IF Brolly ever existed and had come to Earth. It WOULD have taken place during the period of time Gohan trains Videl and Goten.
Movie 11 - IF Brolly ever existed. It WOULD have taken place right after the previous movie (and after the Tenkaichi Budokai that led to the Majin Buu arc, but without the arc itself ever happening, as there WOULD have had been a Tenkaichi Budokai which for some reason had a final in which #18 lets Mr. Satan win in exchange for quite a large sum of money).
Movie 12 - IF Goku had defeated Majin Buu in his fat form and had returned to the other world, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead (the latter after blowing himself up against Majin Buu)
Both the Bardock special and the Trunks special depict events which happened off-screen in DBZ's storyline (in Trunks' movie case, before he decided to go back in the past to warn Goku and the others about the Jinzouningen, which generated a different timeline - pretty much similar to what happened in Back to the Future 2)
The 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F were up until very recently considered to be follow-up continuations of DBZ's main, one and only timeline, and the 2008 special by itself can still be considered to be canon, as there's nothing there that contradicts what we've been seeing or hearing about in DBSuper, but BoG and Fukkatsu no F have also been basically turned into side-stories which are going to be retold, with the introduction of the same characters and stages but at a different timing and in different circumstances.
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Zombie wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Zombie wrote:
You are forgetting Jaco and DB Minus. The Bardock special is not canon anymore.
How come? I'm referring to the Bardock TV Special made back in 1990, not Episode of Bardock, which is obviously non-canon and I didn't include in the list/sequence.
Doctor. wrote:
If it takes place 6 months after Boo, then there's a plot hole and I doubt they wouldn't notice it. If Videl is pregnant, then it pretty much confirms it isn't 6 months post Boo. Saying M13 doesn't fit because there's an inconsistency with the DB usage but saying Super fits when the same thing is present is having double standards.
Or it just means that they're changing the timing at which Pan is actually born, thus retconning the last episodes of DBZ, after having already changed the timing at which events take place in BoG.
I'm not talking about EoB...
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Minus
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Jaco_t ... _Patrolman
I know what that is, thank you. When I included the Bardock Special in the canon list I did so obviously because the fundamental aspects of the events depicted in the special did remain canon, especially Goku being sent to Earth and Bardock's confrontation with Freeza.
You don't need to paste links for Dragonball stuff in that condescending way, I know pretty much everything there is to know about it.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Movie 1 - It WOULD have happened slightly before the arrival of Raditz on Earth.
Movie 5 - IF Cooler ever existed and Goku had somehow beaten Freeza on Namek without having become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin. It WOULD take place in the 3 year gap between Mirai no Trunks' first arrival from the future and the appearance of #19 and Dr. Gero, since Goku has already returned to Earth.
Do you take filler & guidebooks into account? Because if you do, these 2 movies happened. The Garlic Jr. arc means that M1 happened, and according to the official timeline, both Movies 1 & 5 happened.
In fact, the ONLY reason why I didn't include Movie 1 in the "canon" movies is because Krillin is shown to meet Gohan, and when Raditz shows up he's just as surprised that Goku has a son as everyone else at Kame House. Apart from that (minor) detail, it doesn't produce any inconsistencies. I regard the Garlic Jr. arc as canon, with the exception of Garlic Jr. remembering Gohan and Goku from a few years ago when they met in Movie 1 (but if Movie 1 is canon, then the Garlic Jr. arc is definitely canon without any possible debate over it).
Regarding Movie 5, we could argue that Goku did in fact fight Cooler on Earth during the 3 year gap between his return to Earth and the Jinzouningen arc, and the fact that he didn't go Super Saiya-jin right from the start (which he seems to be able to rather comfortably upon meeting Mirai no Trunks) is due to the fact that for some reason he regressed and could only attain the Super Saiya-jin stage when again pushed to his limits in terms of anger, just like Gohan hasn't "mastered" the stage of Super Saiya-jin 2 against Bojack even after having reached it against Cell, as in, he could only attain it if pushed to his limits AGAIN.
We're merely discussing which of the 13 Movies COULD have taken place within the series' timeline without producing any plot holes or inconsistencies, but I'm sure that it was never their preoccupation whether or not they were possible to have happened or not. Toriyama did indeed once say that the movies have to be seen as side-stories, depicting "what-if" scenarios. If you want to call that an "alternate universe" or an "alternate timeline", or whatever it is, it's just a matter of naming. Besides, the issue over "canonness" has produced countless discussions over the years and still to this day no definite, absolute conclusion has been reached, and may never be at any point in the future.
We were just exploring a little bit the area of the Movies and whether or not the events depicted in them could have taken place, and under which circumstances. It's not meant to turn into a serious debate or anything. You're always going to find someone else with a different point of view that contradicts yours.
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Hey,
This might be a little bit strange of a question, but is that really you in your avatar? :mrgreen:
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irreality wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
You could say that... but I don't think people would really feel for a character who's mostly been depicted as nagging and money-hungry (this is aimed at Super more specifically than in general).
Ok, wanting to win prizes at a party where prizes are the main event and hoping your whole family is on your team is not "money hungry". It is having a competitive spirit, which both #18 and Chichi have always displayed. (and to be fair, a great number of characters both male and female in the series). The prizes are meant to be enticing. It is nice to see #18 and Chichi interacting about something that is not about their kids or their husbands.
Other than asking Goku to suppport her family, the rest of her "nagging" in Super was to (rightly) berate Roshi for being an obvious pervert around children, on two different occasions. Roshi is being gross -- someone should nag him, and I don't think it reflects badly on her at all.
Goku promised he would be at the party, he even remembers he should be at the party, and is dithering about just using Instant Transmission to get there. Because he doesn't want Bulma to yell at him. Nobody is calling Bulma a nag, even though she is yelling at both Vegeta and Goku for not being at her party. (Which I think she is justified in doing, but it is much more frivolous a cause).
That's why I say that Gohan is THE perfect example of complete pure-heartedness, not Goku. Goku may not have a sliver of evil in himself, but he disregards his family responsibilities all the time, displays no respect towards others (when they deserve it, beyond their mere "status"), uses Kaiou-sama's "sacred" planet as his personal training grounds, destroying his house numerous times, and leaves his family behind at the first thought just to train a little bit more or training others, whereas Gohan, other than having a 100% purely good "soul", is well-mannered, polite, well-spoken and respectful towards pretty much every living thing, unless you happen to have the power to torture or kill his friends in front of him, in which case he loses it and can't even control himself, at least throughout his childhood/teenage years, reducing the degree of "fault" it is his when it comes to the destruction he causes even to guys who actually deserve it.
Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jin, among all the other race-specific traits we all know about, have a desire to train and get stronger which borders on obsession/mania.
But on the other hand that's exactly the main reason why they keep pushing above their previous limits and keep surpassing both themselves and others, to the point where they overcome more and more new barriers and end up being among the restricted group of the very strongest beings in the entire Universe.
Regarding Chi Chi and Muten Roshi, and analyzing each one separately, and starting with Chi Chi, I guess her behavior since the beginning of DBZ, after having Gohan, can't really be regarded as entirely normal. She pretty much abuses Gohan psychologically and emotionally throughout his childhood whenever she gets the chance and cares more about turning him into a nerd than about his potential to save the Universe from conquest or utter destruction (which, if happened, would provide no place for studying in the first goddamn place). Her entire routine is not getting old now, it's gotten old a long, long time ago. The entire, sole purpose of her existence is to have her infant son locked in a room for days on end. That's not healthy behavior on her part, but luckily Gohan finds it in himself to escape her grasp pretty much whenever he wants to (I mean, for f***'s sake, while he's the sole warrior with the potential to prevent Cell from destroying the entire population of Earth, which he ends up delivering, all she cares is still the fact that he's not studying - that goes beyond being a mere a protective mother, that's just sick, nagging, unreasonable and highly unhealthy).
By the way, she does that to Gohan, but she's never shown doing it to Goten. It's like she deliberately chose "ok, I'm gonna turn this one's life into a complete f***** nightmare and not the second one, just because... well, because I'm pretty sick myself".
I guess the initial concept of having Chi Chi transform into a dedicated housewife from the beginning of DBZ onwards was to show her as the prototype of the "perfect" wife in most cultures around the world (cooking the meals, carrying about her son's intellectual development and health, doing the dishes, cleaning the house, staying home, etc.), which is by itself an outdated concept regarding the whole "equality between man and women" thing.
Muten Roshi's days as a hermit/sage have pretty much become part of history and no longer apply, and I've always regarded his numerous attempts throughout DBZ to use or "blackmail" his students (and others close to them and to him) with the fact that he's a "great sage" or an "old man" to justify his advances on women as utterly demented and unfair. He retains and has always retained all of his wisdom, but he just has since long ceased to use it. He has been obsolete as a fighter even as early as the Piccolo Jr. arc in DB, so what do you expect? All that's left is how utterly perverted he is, half of the times accompanied by Oolong. The routine might be getting old at this point, like that of Chi Chi's constant ultra-housewife and over-the-top-motherhood nagging, which has started to bother me a little bit as early as the Jinzouningen arc (thankfully, she's not around during the entirety of the Freeza saga, so Gohan has freedom to try to help and save the f**** Universe instead of studying like a goddamn nerd - I mean, we're talking about the member of the good guys with the most potential inside of him, if he had half of the Saiya-jin fighting spirit he would be far above both Goku and Vegeta and, who knows?, could even become the strongest, most untouchable single entity who has ever existed in ANY Universe).
But between one and the other, regardless of both of their respective routines having gotten old and obsolete a long time ago, at least Muten Roshi still has the potential to make fans laugh their asses off in certain specific circumstances, such as suddenly bursting out of nowhere into Chi Chi's wife in a completely random fashion making a connection between the money Goku has gotten and the possibility of buying sukebe DVDs. The funny part is not in the mere fact he wants to watch perverted stuff, it's actually the whole randomness of the scene and how sudden and unexpected it was. I also laughed my ass off almost two decades ago when I first saw him suddenly and randomly touching Videl's breasts despite barely knowing her in Kami's lookout, or when he had the balls to actually try a similar move towards #18, who proceeds to turn him upside down, almost destroying the man and his glasses, and also in the 2008 special when at the end everyone has their own seconds of showing off their most well-known techniques and he saves those girls WHILE at the same time touching them.
But, overall, if you're going to stick to the same characters for decades, with just a few gradual additions to the core team as the arcs progress, you're eventually, sooner or later, going to end up with some of their routines getting old. What more did you expect from Chi Chi or Muten Roshi at this point? They can't suddenly change who they are all of a sudden for no good reason. Whatever little screen time they get has to depict them the way they've always known to be and act, even if (they know) it's obsolete to the point of being nagging and even annoying.
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You're cute. I'm not hitting on your or anything, I just, whenever I looked at the picture, found some sort of weird attraction. Must be because you're both a girl AND a Dragonball fan, don't know :D
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SansrivaaL wrote:
Glad to see someone other than me here wants to see Beerus get his ass cat kicked, he thinks way too highly of himself kinda like how Goku is at times but thats been taken care of by a lot of characters kicking his ass.
I can understand why some of you might want this happen, pretty much the way I loved it when Goku got his ass absolutely destroyed by Piccolo Daimao, for example (unlike Freeza during the first half of their fight, before he goes Super Saiya-jiin, but that's only because Freeza was so perfect a villain that he actually made me hate him for all he had done and I regarded Goku as the embodiment of every race and living thing he destroyed, including the Saiya-jin, the Namek-sei-jin and Vegeta).
The strongest Goku always got throughout DB and DBZ, the higher he deep down thought of himself, only to find himself overwhelmed by an entire list of villains (whom he - and Vegeta - eventually surpasses, which is the focal point of Dragonball, in fact).
Vegeta and Piccolo are my favorite characters in the entirety of Dragonball, and I really felt for them after they suffered major defeats (Vegeta crying and being tortured by that f***** Freeza still has me traumatized since childhood, just for example), but it also served the purpose of presenting them with a further challenge to surpass themselves again and again, which they take and are successful in. Vegeta, especially, has thought of himself (and others thought of him) as having become stronger than Goku after major defeats on more than one occasion, but episodes after that he gets his ass kicked yet again, and so on, and so on (thinks he's enough for Kiwi, Dodoria and Zarbon, but gets his ass violently kicked by Zarbon the first time they fight, and then brutally murders him episodes after; thinks he's better than Freeza but gets tortured by him and has Goku reach the Super Saiya-jin stage before him, but three years later he's arguably stronger than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin against #19; thinks he's the best fighter in the Universe but gets utterly dominated by #18, only to further surpass himself by going beyond the first stage of SSJ and crush Cell at this second stage, who is far above #18, and then gets his ass humiliatingly kicked again by Cell episodes later due to his pride/arrogance/stupidity of having let and actually HELPED Cell reach his perfect stage).
Going back to the Vegeta/Freeza relationship, the utter desperation I felt two decades ago SHOULD have been totally compensated by the fact that Vegeta finally got his chance to display his enormous and unbelievable increase in power to Freeza and take care of him personally, taking revenge in 2015 for a traumatic event which happened to him - and to me - in 1991, but he's just far too emotionally indifferent to Freeza throughout the movie. I guess he just went through too much and developed his character and emotions so much that he no longer felt the need to brag about his level of power, even to Freeza.
However... Well, this might a little bit suspicious coming from a cat-lover and an admirer of Beerus (for the reasons I put forth a few days ago, I can easily put him in my group of five favorite characters from the entirety of Dragonball, and that's saying a lot), but I want him to remain virtually untouchable, with the obvious exception of Whis. I certainly don't want him to get beaten to a pulp or surpassed by anyone else, much less get a major ass-whooping. He's Hakaishin Beerus, for f***'s sake. Everyone should bow down before him and be grateful just for having the honor of breathing the same air he breathes.
I mean, things just need to reach a point where there is just no more barriers to cross, and we're presented to the one who is actually THE strongest living entity in the history of all Universes, and I hope it turns out to be the Beerus/Whis duo (before his introduction in recent years, I went for over a decade and a half utterly idolizing Vegitto as the one holding that honor, as in, he was basically invincible and untouchable, the real, ultimate Saikyou no Senshi).
Of course, in my view, among Dragonball's many fundamental aspects which make it so fantastic (violence, character development, drama, brutal fights, humor, randomness, etc.), the major factor and life lesson-teaching is the fact that one shouldn't feel defeated or humiliated by finding someone else stronger than you, because you can always personally do whatever it takes to surpass them yourself and manage to come out on top in the end, having the last laugh. By doing this numerous times, over and over again, you'll eventually find yourself, without having noticed it before, one of the strongest fighters there ever was before you know it.
Goku and especially Vegeta are the main personifications of this attitude, as pure Saiya-jin, but this lesson taught several times throughout Dragonball is something that fans should see as an example in their own lives and apply to their own personal obstacles and adversaries.
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samuraix123 wrote:
Hey guys I know this has been discussed to death but I was just hoping to get this cleared up for me. When does battle of Gods and Revival Of F take place(try not to give too many spoilers for ROF please.) Since Super takes place right after the Majin Boo saga will we eventually get a fast forward to the moment Goku and Uub fly off and go train? I really would like to see him show up in Super.
You're right, it's been debated to death, but basically the 2008 (Tarble) special takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu, BoG takes place 2 years after that and Fukkatsu no F takes place 1 year after that, which means 5 years WOULD have gone by between Kid Buu's defeat and the resurrection of Freeza. However, and this is the part that's it's really been debated to death, it's almost sure - we've been going back and forth on this every day for over a month - that at least the Beerus-dedicated episodes in DBSuper are presenting almost the same exact events we saw in BoG although at a different timing, and the same could apply to Fukkatsu no F, rendering the events depicted in the movie "non-canon", as in, they didn't actually "happen"; what DOES happen is what we get to see in DBSuper, regardless of how and when it does and regardless of the changes/similarities between the events in the series and those of the movie(s). Also, until further notice, the last 3 episodes of DBZ (last Tenkaichi Budokai and introduction of Uub) happen 5 years after Fukkatsu no F WOULD have happened, and 10 years after the defeat of Kid Buu, but that's another issue we've been debating to death (the possibility of changing or even going as far as erasing the events of the last 3 episodes of DBZ, ten years later in the storyline, from the timeline/history).
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SansrivaaL wrote:
Glad to see someone other than me here wants to see Beerus get his ass cat kicked, he thinks way too highly of himself kinda like how Goku is at times but thats been taken care of by a lot of characters kicking his ass.
I can understand why some of you might want this happen, pretty much the way I loved it when Goku got his ass absolutely destroyed by Piccolo Daimao, for example (unlike Freeza during the first half of their fight, before he goes Super Saiya-jiin, but that's only because Freeza was so perfect a villain that he actually made me hate him for all he had done and I regarded Goku as the embodiment of every race and living thing he destroyed, including the Saiya-jin, the Namek-sei-jin and Vegeta).
The strongest Goku always got throughout DB and DBZ, the higher he deep down thought of himself, only to find himself overwhelmed by an entire list of villains (whom he - and Vegeta - eventually surpasses, which is the focal point of Dragonball, in fact).
Vegeta and Piccolo are my favorite characters in the entirety of Dragonball, and I really felt for them after they suffered major defeats (Vegeta crying and being tortured by that f***** Freeza still has me traumatized since childhood, just for example), but it also served the purpose of presenting them with a further challenge to surpass themselves again and again, which they take and are successful in. Vegeta, especially, has thought of himself (and others thought of him) as having become stronger than Goku after major defeats on more than one occasion, but episodes after that he gets his ass kicked yet again, and so on, and so on (thinks he's enough for Kiwi, Dodoria and Zarbon, but gets his ass violently kicked by Zarbon the first time they fight, and then brutally murders him episodes after; thinks he's better than Freeza but gets tortured by him and has Goku reach the Super Saiya-jin stage before him, but three years later he's arguably stronger than Goku as a Super Saiya-jin against #19; thinks he's the best fighter in the Universe but gets utterly dominated by #18, only to further surpass himself by going beyond the first stage of SSJ and crush Cell at this second stage, who is far above #18, and then gets his ass humiliatingly kicked again by Cell episodes later due to his pride/arrogance/stupidity of having let and actually HELPED Cell reach his perfect stage).
Going back to the Vegeta/Freeza relationship, the utter desperation I felt two decades ago SHOULD have been totally compensated by the fact that Vegeta finally got his chance to display his enormous and unbelievable increase in power to Freeza and take care of him personally, taking revenge in 2015 for a traumatic event which happened to him - and to me - in 1991, but he's just far too emotionally indifferent to Freeza throughout the movie. I guess he just went through too much and developed his character and emotions so much that he no longer felt the need to brag about his level of power, even to Freeza.
However... Well, this might a little bit suspicious coming from a cat-lover and an admirer of Beerus (for the reasons I put forth a few days ago, I can easily put him in my group of five favorite characters from the entirety of Dragonball, and that's saying a lot), but I want him to remain virtually untouchable, with the obvious exception of Whis. I certainly don't want him to get beaten to a pulp or surpassed by anyone else, much less get a major ass-whooping. He's Hakaishin Beerus, for f***'s sake. Everyone should bow down before him and be grateful just for having the honor of breathing the same air he breathes.
I mean, things just need to reach a point where there is just no more barriers to cross, and we're presented to the one who is actually THE strongest living entity in the history of all Universes, and I hope it turns out to be the Beerus/Whis duo (before his introduction in recent years, I went for over a decade and a half utterly idolizing Vegitto as the one holding that honor, as in, he was basically invincible and untouchable, the real, ultimate Saikyou no Senshi).
Of course, in my view, among Dragonball's many fundamental aspects which make it so fantastic (violence, character development, drama, brutal fights, humor, randomness, etc.), the major factor and life lesson-teaching is the fact that one shouldn't feel defeated or humiliated by finding someone else stronger than you, because you can always personally do whatever it takes to surpass them yourself and manage to come out on top in the end, having the last laugh. By doing this numerous times, over and over again, you'll eventually find yourself, without having noticed it before, one of the strongest fighters there ever was before you know it.
Goku and especially Vegeta are the main personifications of this attitude, as pure Saiya-jin, but this lesson taught several times throughout Dragonball is something that fans should see as an example in their own lives and apply to their own personal obstacles and adversaries.
Lord Beerus wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Also, anyone else bothered by Majin Boo being a complete douche?
Oh, hell yeah. Out of all the characters in Dragon Ball that Toei love to exaggerate in terms of their signature traits and memorable characteristics, Majin Boo is the worst case of this. He's become a flat out asshole. He's basically become Eric Cartman. I can't wait Beerus to kick his ass when they continue retelling the events of BOG.
Spoiler:View
Honestly? I've only addressed Majin Buu's apparent change in attitude in the first episode of DBSuper when compared to the character development he went through during the Majin Buu arc once, and I think that going as far as comparing him to Eric Cartman is pushing it a little bit. Eric Cartman is a sociopath, not just a fat jealous glutton greedy envious asshole. They sort of had to include fat Majin Buu as part of the supporting team after he became friends with Mr. Satan and fought against Kid Buu during the Majin Buu arc, but given his character and intellectual shortcomings, there's not a lot of room for further development by introducing new concepts to his personality and acts.
Again, sometimes it's just better to stick what you already know, or to cease from presenting the characters entirely, than to make up stuff just for the sake of it with pretty disappointing results. Doesn't bother too much, though, he'll just be blown away by Beerus the way he was in BoG, if that makes you particularly happy. I'm personally almost indifferent to fat Majin Buu and his role in DBSuper, but if it really bothers some of you, be sure that Beerus will punish him royally, whether because of his refusal to share any pudding or whatever the reason they choose it to be in the series.
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Herms wrote:
Chuquita wrote:
TomTom wrote:
Hi all, the preview of the next épisode. :)
Image
The resolution is too small for me to translate. T_T
I'm sure someone with higher kanji skills will get to it. I still need the pronunciations to be able to get it, and the pronunciations are tiny and fuzzy due to the resolution.
Nothing new: Goku challenges Beerus, despite Kaio warning him not to. Beerus is searching for clues about Super Saiyan God, and when he hears Goku knows nothing about it, he heads to Earth to ask Vegeta. No mention of Champa or anything else not seen in BoG.
Thought so. That image there displaying half of the picture we had seen weeks ago depicting the encounter between Beerus and Champa doesn't mean that they'll be meeting in episode 5 already.
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LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Also, anyone else bothered by Majin Boo being a complete douche?
Oh, hell yeah. Out of all the characters in Dragon Ball that Toei love to exaggerate in terms of their signature traits and memorable characteristics, Majin Boo is the worst case of this. He's become a flat out asshole. He's basically become Eric Cartman. I can't wait Beerus to kick his ass when they continue retelling the events of BOG.
Spoiler:View
I hope this time piccolo has a legitimate reason to fight beerus. I mean Beerus attacked buu after buu said he was gonna KILL him. Buu was being a dick,and threatened to kill beerus. It seamed messed up they ganged up on beerus when techniquily, buu was the bad guy.
It was just the best "excuse" they could find in the movie to have a number of the fighters in the team getting absolutely dominated and overwhelmed by Beerus, to further demonstrate the latter's entirely different dimension in terms of power.
What I DO hope regarding Piccolo - and I've "complained" for the first time a few days ago about the lack of attention given to him so far in DBSuper, as a huge fan of him - is that he gets to land more than one blow when attacking Beerus. However, at the same time, I want Beerus to KO him just as effortlessly and almost as quickly as he did in BoG, as a demonstration of the fact that he's basically untouchable to anyone in there (if he KO's Ultimate Gohan with a kick, it's not surprising that he should be able to KO Piccolo with two masterfully applied pressure-points to his body, even with chopsticks).
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LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
True but chop sticks should just break on Piccolo. They should have made Beerus put his KI into the sticks. Because it doesn't matter about his power,the amount of force he uses+the strength of piccolo's body means the sticks shoulda broke. I hope episode 6 does it better then battle of gods. Super already seams beter,at least in terms of animation...just a little bit.
Hmm, I did say "masterfully-applied" blows with the chopsticks. Beerus is so skilled a martial artist that he probably not only chose exactly which pressure-points to touch but "infused" the chopsticks with the ability/physical strength to be unbreakable upon contact with even Piccolo, who was indeed arguably in his full fighting force at the time.
Martial arts, especially in an universe as unreal as Dragonball, with the entire concept of development + manipulation of Ki, is not only about physical strength. In fact, I've always theorized that the physical strength of the fighters throughout DB and DBZ is augmented to insane degrees by precisely having it exponentially grow through the usage of Ki (as in, their bodies are naturally strong, but they only reach the insane degrees of resistance and strength when the fighters use their Ki to basically become superhuman ALSO at a physical level, beyond the usage of Ki blasts, etc.). Also, the ability to physically destroy stuff with kicks and punches also comes not from their base physical strength, but from the fact that they "infuse" their physical blows with the Ki to make the punches and kicks reach an insane degree of destructiveness. According to this theory, if a particular fighter is unconscious and thus unable to use their Ki for any purpose, they're rendered pretty much inoffensive, no more powerful than a well-trained and well-built regular man. But that's just a theory, though. Could be totally wrong.
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It's actually also been debated to death recently, but I've always defended the possibility of Vegeta going, or at least becoming able to go Super Saiya-jin 3 at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, instead of skipping the stage and going from Super Saiya-jin 2 straight to Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
Regardless of how obsolete and ancient the concept of Super Saiya-jin 3 is, I've defended this theory because by the time of Fukkastu no F Vegeta is close to/on par with Goku in terms of power level in his Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage, and he's shown using his base form after having incorporated the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God when training with Whis, which is something Goku also uses during his fight with Beerus, Freeza and while training under Whis.
My theory is that the Super Saiya-jin God and the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages multiply the Saiya-jin's MAXIMUM power level at an exponential rate, which would mean that, if Goku and Vegeta are on par with each other in their SSJGSSJ stages, then Vegeta's maximum power level upon which the transformation expands and multiplies has to be equal to that of Goku's (Super Saiya-jin 3). If he transformed into Super Saiya-jin God and then Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin based on his maximum power level of Super Saiya-jin 2, then his power level in the SSJG and SSJGSSJ forms would be below Goku's (according to the theory).
In my view, the Super Saiya-jin God and the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin transformations occur in entirely different circumstances and are achieved through different methods when compared to the other Super Saiya-jin stages (which, in my personal opinion, basically build upon the previous one, in a gradual step-by-step basis (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3), rendering SSJG and SSJGSSJ entirely separate events.
According to this theory, any Saiya-jin who happens to transform into Super Saiya-jin God and/or Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin will have, in those stages, a power level in accordance with what their MAXIMUM power level his when NOT in those stages (in Goku's case, when he does transform, Super Saiya-jin 3, and in the case of the original Saiya-jin who turned SSJG by chance back in Planet Vegeta, the regular power level of a low-class Saiya-jin warrior).
Basically, I postulate a scenario in which Vegeta basically follows Goku's every step in terms of Super Saiya-jin transformations, although just a little bit later (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with the power of SSJG and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin).
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Noah wrote:
You guys think that Champa is weaker than Beerus or they're equal?
We can only speculate on how powerful Champa really is (and in fact, on who and what he actually is, and just what his relationship with Beerus is), but, regardless of what I think, what I do HOPE is that Beerus is stronger, and I think the picture we were exposed to is enough to postulate that Beerus has some sort of leverage/superiority over Champa, who could be jealous of him and wants to challenge/compete with/get revenge on him.
There's definitely some sort of rivalry/antagonism/tension between the two of them, for a number of possible reasons we already discussed, but, as a Beerus admirer and lover of his character, I do really hope Beerus has the upper hand in terms of power, although I doubt that superiority will be shown in actual battle (as in, I doubt they'll actually fight at any point in the future, although they might have done so in the distant past).
If Champa turns out to be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe just like Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th (and there are good reasons to base this theory upon, as Champa has similar clothing, has similar physical traits and even has an attendant just like Beerus has Whis, and the two share an almost identical resemblance), then it would be possible that they're pretty much equal in terms of power, though, despite the fact that the picture hints otherwise.
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Can I talk to you somewhere other than here, in a more direct way?
I went through your posts in tumblr a little bit and I'm finding myself strangely attracted to you.
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shinmaru wrote:
I think Bills is stronger. but I don't think Champa is the main villian of universe 6.
Another theory is that they could have been competitors for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe, and after Beerus won, Champa has been plotting some sort of scheme to get revenge on him (pretty much along the lines of Garlic Jr. trying to get revenge on Kami for the latter having been chosen for the position of Guardian of Earth instead of his father).
Besides, who said anything about a villain? Even if he is the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe (which is nothing more than a possibility), he certainly can't be deemed "evil". Nor "good", either. Just like Beerus. Not evil, not good, no one's ally, just the Hakaishin.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Basically, I postulate a scenario in which Vegeta basically follows Goku's every step in terms of Super Saiya-jin transformations, although just a little bit later (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with the power of SSJG and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin).
The base form with the power of SSG is officially called in the video-games "Saiyan beyond God", in case you didn't know.
Yes, I knew that, I just don't like the term too much because it lacks the "Super" on it.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
Scott wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
I really wanna see Beerus get his ass kicked. I hate his kind of person. Too bad he's possibly a creators pet and we may never have someone do that (I don't count that Whis chop as anything, needs to be complete domination like 18 vs Vegeta)
On those two, yeah Chi Chi's role is to be a bitchy bitch bitch bitch, while Roshi's role is to be a pervy pervy perv perv. That's pretty much all their good for, cheap laughs. Nothing was more forced than Muten Roshi in episode 1.
I would be fine if Beerus was killed off at some point to be honest, i can't understand why Goku or any Z fighter would ever get along with him. He kills people just because they annoy him. He may well be just doing his job but someone like Goku would never be comfortable with another person killing people, he would do his best to stop that person, just like he did against Freeza.
I still don't really get Beerus' job to be honest. His job is to destroy planets to maintain some sort of balance in the Universe........what balance ? why does it matter if there are loads of planets out there ? I see the gods of destruction as evil personally. The people that know of Beerus all fear him, just like they did with Freeza, i can't look at him and see him as a good person.
Job or not I can't really see Goku liking a guy who kills entire worlds for a living.
While there are indeed SOME similarities between Beerus and Freeza (both appear to enjoy the sight of planets blowing up in flames, both control or are in charge of parts of the Universe - in Beerus' case, its entirety -, both are feared to death because of their power, etc.), there's a major difference between them which sets them apart decisively: you don't really see Beerus enslaving entire races of beings, torturing people before killing them for pure sadism, being a maniacal, evil, genocidal narcissistic egotistical megalomaniacal f*** (which is what pretty much makes Freeza the perfect incarnation of a DBZ villain, and why he's so charismatic and is remembered and re-referenced constantly even to this day). On the contrary, Beerus, although a little bit narcissistic, arrogant and proud (being THAT powerful and making even the highest deities in the Universe be terrified just because of hearing your name will do that to you, eventually), does display a humorous and laid-back attitude at most times. He doesn't destroy planets and beings because he's evil, he does it both because it's his job (the "excuse" they came up with of it being necessary to destroy worlds/planets in order to maintain the balance in the Universe wasn't exactly the best thing ever invented in Dragonball, but it's acceptable) AND whenever something just happens to piss him off, no matter how trivial it might be (and here's where he displays what we could call a character fault).
Beerus is so probably so unreal an entity that he most likely has a totally different concept of what "good" and "evil" mean. Besides, we can't call killing entire worlds a "job". It's his "mission", what he was taught how to do and what he eventually became able to do, and my theory on his background and history is that, like Goku, Vegeta and some others, he was originally not a "deity", just a regular being with an enormous potential and power who went through a long process of developing it not only by himself but also with the help of others (namely Whis, upon recognizing his abilities); he wasn't created by magic like Majin Buu was, for example, he might well have been originally more of an alien than a deity or a magical being. He did accept the role of Hakaishin, whereas Goku declined it, just like he declined the role of Guardian of Earth offered by Kami right after defeating Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. If the theory on Champa having been a competitor for the role of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe against Beerus at some point in the distant past is right, then it would explain the rivalry/animosity between the two, but it might well be that Champa is just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe (there are numerous reasons to make this a credible scenario and possibility), which would ALSO explain, to some degree, the tension between them, or he might even be someone/something else with an entirely different and rather surprising background that cause all of these theories to collapse.
Whis is most likely tasked with the role of training and preparing the successive Hakaishin after each one perishes, which is something actually hinted at the end of BoG, when he states that when Beerus dies, Goku could become the next Hakaishin. Why it's not just Whis who does the job himself, being even more powerful than Beerus and probably all the other past Hakaishin, and consequently more than fit to fulfill the purpose of the successive Hakaishin, is beyond me. It certainly has nothing to do with his personality, since he displays no disapproval of Beerus' volatile and destructive activities.
While Beerus certainly can't be deemed "evil", he most certainly can't be deemed "good" either. Like all cats, he's a bit egotistical, proud and uncaring, doesn't bother to help others in need even when it would be the "right" thing to do. Also, like any figure in actual history or in fiction who reaches absolute, or near-absolute power, it eventually gets to his head and as a result he starts displaying what we would call morally erratic behavior in the form of arrogance, volatility, "unjustified" destruction, etc. The concept of his personality is entirely new in Dragonball, we've never seen anything like this. We've seen entirely pure-hearted warriors (Goku, Gohan), we've seen entirely evil, genocial, maniacal villains (Freeza, Future #17, Future #18, Cell), we've seen regular folks, we've seen well-spoken and polite deities (the Kaioshin), we've seen powerful warriors with a tendency for violence and destruction (the Saiya-jin, in general), we've seen gifted fighters belonging to different races handpicked to serve under Freeza (Zarbon, Dodoria, Kiwi, Vegeta, Nappa), we've seen peace-loving yet powerful aliens (Namek-sei-jin), we've seen nature-loving androids (#16), we've seen serious, stoic warriors with the sole purpose of becoming better martial artists fighting for good when necessary (Piccolo, Tenshinhan), we've seen mad scientists bent on revenge and conquest (Dr. Gero), we've seen magical entities with no purpose other than to destroy everything in sight (Majin/Kid Buu), we've seen demons and their respective kings/rulers (Piccolo Daimao, Shura, Dabura), etc., etc., but we've never seen an entity who combines a level of power far, far above that of ANY of even the highest deities with a laid-back attitude, some degree of comic aspects/humor and a tendency to lose it over trivial matters and start destroying everything in sight with his absolutely immense, untouchable might, like Beerus. We can't really complain about the characterization of Beerus, Toriyama did a pretty good job at inventing yet another character with interesting features without repeating past concepts, anything other than that could be disastrous, turn BoG into a failure and seriously hinder the medium/long-term possibilities of generating more Dragonball stories after that.
You might just be getting sick or starting to get annoyed at his attitude and his apparent random destruction of planets, I've seen and read you complaining more and more about Beerus and displaying your wish that he gets his ass kicked, which is something I don't share with you, but don't get your hopes too high. He'll remain above everyone, except Whis, who, in a way, can't even be separated from him and with whom Beerus shares a rather interesting and mysterious attendant/master relationship the likes of which we ALSO have never seen before.
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Goku's primary interest in Beerus is that he's really strong and he wants to fight him, the nature of Beerus' character is of secondary importance to Goku. This is why Goku let Vegeta live, and why he tried twice to allow Freeza to live, he wanted to fight them again.
As for Beerus being good or evil, he's neither, he's beyond good and evil, he's like a force of nature and he does something that's necessary. If you're interested in the philosophy behind this, pick up a book on Taoism or the Buddhist concept of pratitya-samutpada.
Regarding Beerus being deemed "good" or "evil", you basically repeated which I wrote before you in a much shorter version. He's not good nor is he evil, he doesn't do what he does because it's the "right" thing to do nor does he destroy planets and beings because he's a maniacal villain, he has been tasked with a mission and, apart from the instances in which he loses it over trivial matters and destroys more than he's supposed to, he sticks to it because that's what's expected of him. He's no one's ally either. He's beyond all that stuff, he doesn't cause terror in those who know about him and his enormous massive power because he tortures them or displays it on purpose, he does so because a few beings crossed his path of destruction and somehow managed to live to tell about it. He's so unreal an entity that his concept of "good" and evil" most likely differs fundamentally from ours and that of regular beings in Dragonball, to the point he can't even tell the difference on our "terms". The whole concept of "right" and "wrong", of "righteousness" and "evil" we base our lives upon doesn't apply to an entity like Hakaishin Beerus.
However, like most real historical figures and the most powerful of villains in fiction, absolute power does distort the mind, and that's why Beerus can be quite cocky, arrogant, dismissive, egotistical and demanding here and there.
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I didn't mean to be weird or anything, I just want to talk to you. Give me a "yes" or "no" (if it's a "no" I won't bother you anymore).
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Ok, no problem. Even if it was possible I've always regarded having "online relationships" as ridiculous. My present and past "attempts" may originate online, but I'm not a nerd or anything who has zero life, I actually spend very little time at my computer for professional and family-related reasons, and all the relationships I've had in my life were real ones. I guess I just wanted to talk to you a little bit, most likely because I found your pictures cute and you're a DBZ fan. :mrgreen:
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I honestly never really thought that my theory of Vegeta basically following Goku's every step a bit later regarding each of the Super Saiya-jin transformations would come true, but it appears there's a good chance it will. The concept of Super Saiya-jin 3 might be a little outdated and obsolete, but it would make much more sense to me if Vegeta did reach/become able to reach it, in order to have him become just as strong as Goku at his very strongest when they BOTH transform into Super Saiya-jin God and then Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, at which stage they're shown to be exactly on par in Fukkatsu no F. I'd like it to become true because it would prove that my theory - and that's what it was, just a theory - of the SSJG and SSGSSJ transformations basically working along the lines of Kaio Ken (increasing or multiplying the MAXIMUM strength a Saiya-jin has at their very limits by a given degree - in Goku's case, Super Saiya-jin 3 - as opposed to multiplying their strength in their base forms). Basically, to make the theory complete, and in order for it to make sense that by Fukkatsu no F (and its upcoming retelling in DBSuper) both Goku and Vegeta are basically on par in terms of sheer power as Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, the only way to go is to have their MAXIMUM power also be the same (both Super Saiya-jin 3). According to the theory, if Vegeta hadn't been able to overcome Super Saiya-jin 2, he should be far below Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
This is the main reason for me to have postulated more than once that Vegeta could go, or at least become able to go Super Saiya-jin 3 (in the movies's "timeline," at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and in the series main timeline, either during or after the Beerus arc). If that's what they mean by "transformation" ("henshin") upon losing it over Beerus slapping Bulma (one additional change when compared to the movie, which would be good), then that would be just fantastic. He's obviously no match for Beerus even as a Super Saiya-jin 3, just as Goku/Ultimate Gohan aren't, but at least that would make him overcome the gap there has been between him and Goku, and even Gohan from the moment when the latter gained his Ultimate form.
However, "henshin" is a word used in Japanese throughout DBZ to refer to pretty much any change deep enough to render a particular fighter stronger, so my whole theory of a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta should never be taken as fact just because the word is there. It could very well just be an increase in power without any physical transformation, triggered by an explosion of anger, exactly as it happened in BoG.
Just as we all expect Goku's fight against Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet to last longer than it did in the movie (in BoG, Goku was KO'd with a masterfulyl applied pressure-point attack in a matter of one minute) in the upcoming episode, it would also be good to take the opportunity that this is a series of episodes rather than a time-restricted movie to expand upon the time each fighter has to have a go at Beerus, especially Vegeta (and, to some degree, Ultimate Gohan), although a slightly expanded fighting time for Vegeta, Gohan, #18 or Piccolo SHOULDN'T mean that they don't get ultimately overwhelmed by Beerus just as easily and effortlessly as they did in BoG, as that is fundamental to show just how enormous the gap is between Hakaishin Beerus and ANY of them, including the very strongest; I just want to have some awesome fighting going on, just like 80's and 90's DBZ, with the obvious changes/adaptations. It is indeed possible to have Beerus KO all of them just as effortlessly as he did in the movie, and pretty much in the same fashion, but we've gotta have at least slightly longer tries by at least the majority of them when they go against Beerus, and I'm not talking just about Vegeta.
Pilaf had to be given his time in order for his appearance in the arc to have any sense at all, they just didn't have to dedicate more than half an episode to him, that's all. Episode 4 wasn't weak, it was just the least good/entertaining so far, but we'll get utterly compensated for that in the next one, when things - finally - get serious in the fighting department as Goku gradually realizes he's encountered yet someone else (a lot) above him (in fact, in an entirely different league altogether).
Judging from the names of the episodes, it's become pretty much established that the estimations me and a few others did a few days ago on how many episodes would be dedicated to the entire Beerus arc, its aftermath and its transition into/beginning of the Freeza arc were entirely wrong. Initially I thought that after after 2/3 episodes of (re)introducing characters along with some ominous/mysterious appearances by Beerus, after Beerus KO's Goku in episode 5, after his interactions with Vegeta and the others on Earth (including the aforementioned potential Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta transformation) and his fight with Goku, the entire retelling of BoG will be done by episodes 10/12, and after one or two in-between smoother episodes dealing with the aftermath of fight, the reemergence of Freeza would begin in episode 14/16, and the retelling of Fukkatsu no F would be done by episodes 23/25, but it seems like we won't be getting into the real, entirely new stuff in the 6th Universe arc until after episode 30 or something along those lines.
I'm already anticipating the further disappointment by a chunk of fans who were already frustrated by the fact that an entirely new series dedicates its first two entire arcs to the retelling of events we've already seen. I myself have been over that since a long time ago, it's also an interesting exercise to watch just what they change when compared to BoG and just what additions they put into DBSuper's version of the events. It also provides us with the possibility of developing and expanding upon everyone's fighting abilities when challenging Beerus. Everyone needs to be patient and look on the bright side of the decision of the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F in pretty much the exact same circumstances instead of being on the verge of skipping episodes until we get to finally reach the 6th Universe arc.
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Lord Beerus wrote:
Noah wrote:
I want to see Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 3! I WANT! I WANT! I WANT!
I highly doubt Super is gonna give us SSJ3 Vegeta. It would be beyond redundant given it'll only happen for that one scene where Vegeta loses his shit aft Beerus hits Bulma. After that, SSJ3 Vegeta will most likely never appear again.
If you read the full explanation of my theory on why he COULD or should go Super Saiya-jin 3 either in this thread or in another one a few days ago (I actually explained in-depth it more than once), then you would understand why I go against the entire idea of it being "redundant". I understand your point of view, though. Everyone has to understand that my theory on a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta at some point has to do with the fact that I want my theory proven correct, not because the physical traits and characteristics of the stage are particularly appealing to me, especially when applied to Vegeta.
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Besides, to be honest, although it is theoretically possible to get a power boost after a trigger (namely, anger, as in most cases of Super Saiya-jin transformations in several characters throughout DBZ), which is what we were presented to in BoG when Vegeta is said to have "surpassed Goku" (without undergoing an actual SSJ physical transformation Goku had already attained a long time ago), I've always viewed the whole thing about Vegeta surpassing Goku after Bulma gets beaten by Beerus as poorly explained and going against a number of theories on how the Super Saiya-jin transformations work regarding their respective boost in power, etc.
Don't get me wrong, Vegeta is my favorite character in the entirety of Dragonball, and I do want him to at least FINALLY be on par with Goku and surpass him (although this one, despite having happened temporarily in the past, will never be a full-time concept, as Goku will always be AT LEAST as strong as Vegeta, or "one step ahead of him"), and I can even understand the main - or sole - reason to say that he surpassed Goku when he attacks Beerus for the second time in BoG (the reason being to show that he deeply cares about his family and can lose and go in a rampage against ANYBODY if someone just happens to threaten, torture, kill or injure his deep-down loved ones), but without actually undergoing a physical, actual transformation into the next stage of Super Saiya-jin (Super Saiya-jin 3), I've always regarded the possibility of him having surpassed Goku, who was/is in fact a Super Saiya-jin 3, almost as a plot-hole, but maybe I'm being or have always been too much of a purist regarding my theories on how exactly each Super Saiya-jin transformation works and how much of an increase in power each one of them grants, and/or on what exact limits in terms of power are "imposed" to each Super Saiya-jin stage.
Basically, the whole theory I presented a few days ago on the possibility of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper has until now had a percentage of probability of coming true of 5%, and now, with the episode title(s), and with the word "henshin", it has just risen to 20% or something.
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irreality wrote:
They did *not* use Henshin.
Sorry, my bad. I just arrived home and found an entire page with the news on the names of the episodes and I guess I read your posts in the last page too hastily. But anyway, "transformation" is there anyway. The possibilities I've postulated in my last posts still apply. "Transformation" could mean he'll indeed undergo a physical Super Saiya-jin transformation into the next stage (Super Saiya-jin 3), or it could simply mean he'll just go insane and ballistic, which is a "transformation" of character/personality/psychological makeup.
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irreality wrote:
They did *not* use Henshin.
Sorry, my bad. I just arrived home and found an entire page with the news on the names of the episodes and I guess I read your posts in the last page too hastily. But anyway, "transformation" is there anyway. The possibilities I've postulated in my last posts still apply. "Transformation" could mean he'll indeed undergo a physical Super Saiya-jin transformation into the next stage (Super Saiya-jin 3), or it could simply mean he'll just go insane and ballistic, which is a "transformation" of character/personality/psychological makeup.
irreality wrote:
...and now, with the episode title(s), and with the word "henshin", it has just risen to 20% or something.
They did *not* use Henshin.
know people harp on about how Vegeta surpassed Goku in SS2 state but that makes sense, it happened only for those few seconds, the way I see it Vegeta's body couldn't physically handle/ become the SS3 transformation (for reasons I stated) so it did the next best thing and gave a huge kind of like adrenaline shot if you will to SS2 form and so because of this Vegeta was able to keep up for those few seconds, that is how I rationale the whole rage boost thing in my head anyway.
That is how I see it in my head, too.
That goes against the theories I've held on the limits "imposed" to each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and that's why I've always found the entire "Vegeta surpassing Goku" in BoG after losing it over Bulma almost a plot-hole, but I could be very well wrong all along and there can be indeed the possibility of having more power in a "lesser" Super Saiya-jin stage than another with a "higher" Super Saiya-jin stage given the right circumstances.
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Setting the whole debate over Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 or not aside for a moment, and going back to the episode's titles and what they mean, or could mean, regarding the events and the time it will take to get through the entirety of the Beerus arc:
6. Don't offend the God of Destruction! Heart-pounding Birthday Party.
7. How dare you, that is my Bulma! Angry Vegeta's Transformation!
8. Goku is watching! Last Chance from Beerus-sama!
9. Thank you for waiting Beerus-sama, Finally Super Saiyan God is born.
I'm not going to go and watch BoG in detail again to check on how each of the events hinted at with these titles correspond to the timing at which the same events take place in the movie, but I honestly thought that we'd get a Vegeta vs Beerus-focused episode sooner and especially Goku achieving Super Saiya-jin God (through the ritual shown in the movie or through some other method) MUCH sooner. I don't see the point at this stage of episode 8 (as in, after everyone - including Vegeta - gets their asses kicked by Beerus, Goku's (re)appearance and proceeding to understand what and how a Super Saiya-jin God is and how he can achieve it should follow almost immediately), but I'll have to see exactly how they put things together in each episode to decide if it was really the right thing to do to stretch it out so much.
By having Goku transform into Super Saiya-jin God only in episode 9 (regardless of whether it's at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of the episode), it also means that their fight will arguably take place in episode 10 and possibly spilling out to 11, with the aftermath (Beerus "destroying" Earth, Whis' proposition to Goku, Beerus and Whis leaving, Beerus pondering on the fight he just had, etc.) in episode 12. If that's right, 12 episodes to retell BoG in its entirety can't be considered too much, either. It doesn't actually go far beyond what we estimated (10/12 episodes).
Back to Vegeta vs Beerus, not only do I hope that their fight is stretched out a lot in the series' version of the events, and it appears it will, taking into account the title of episode 7, I also hope that Vegeta manages to hold his own against Beerus for quite a while and goes beyond landing a few extremely powerful punches and kicks and an enormously and massively destructive Ki blast at Beerus only to be KO'd with a single pressure-point attack to his forehead, like in BoG. I hope he takes the opportunity his boost in power due to losing it over Bulma provides him to fight somewhat toe-to-toe with Beerus for a few minutes, (despite Beerus being holding back all along, of course), displaying Vegeta's fighting genius (which might actually be more present in his first "normal" attempt, before he goes insane after Bulma being hit by Beerus, as he's in his normal state of mind at that moment).
I've confessed this for the first time here very recently for the first time yesterday or something, but I also hope Piccolo is given the (fighting) time he deserves. I know he's below fat Majin Buu and Ultimate Gohan as far as power goes, but, although he should be KO'd just as effortlessly by Beerus as he is in BoG, I want him to throw a desperate Makankosappo at Beerus or something along those lines.
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Chuquita wrote:
Mutation's a weird word choice. Makes me think of ninja turtles, zombies, and rare diseases; not so much power-up transformation sequences.
Could someone please explain further about the "mutation" kanji?
I have to agree with most of you. Getting that word in the episode title translated as "mutation" automatically leads one to think of some sort or weird physical transformation unlike anything we've seen before, triggering all kinds of possible new abilities or hindrances, but we're probably just over-debating a word due to the simple fact that they chose to put a lot of emphasis on Vegeta losing it in the form of going as far as having his episode referred to as a "transformation", where in fact no actual physical transformation actually occurs, only a temporary power boost triggered by anger plus an also temporary psychotic episode (as in, losing control over his actions, which is something we see in a number of instances throughout DBZ, particularly when the Saiya-jin go Oozaru, when Gohan has his numerous tantrums, when Goku, Mirai no Trunks and Vegeta reach a point/degree of anger that actually triggers their first respective Super Saiya-jin transformations, when Brolly basically goes insane and manages to break the control Paragas had over him, proceeding to go around destroying everything and everyone in sight in an unstoppable rampage, etc., etc.).
sangofe wrote:
Turambar wrote:
It seems like Vegeta will indeed get SS3 in episode 7 when Beerus smacks Bulma. The title seems to imply this, at least.
Sure doesn't to me. It's kinda a "mutation" by itself that Vegeta reacts so much to someone hitting Bulma.
Again, although the title along with the (low) possibility of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 for it to make (more) sense that he gets a power boost triggered by anger to the point of surpassing Goku, who's a Super Saiya-jin 3, could increase the probability of it happening, they could be referring to the mere fact that Vegeta gets so out-of-control and goes so berserk upon watching Beerus slapping Bulma that not only does he just temporarily lose his mind, he also gets the respective power boost, with a certain limits, without ever undergoing any actual physical Super Saiya-jin transformation (I believe that whereas "henshin" refers to an actual physical transformation, the right word to use when someone changes so much to the point of SEEMING like an entirely "different person" is "tetsujin").
I'm not going to repeat myself on why I would partially like to see Vegeta go Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper. It has only to do with the fact that I'd like my theory proven right, and I've explained the theory I'm referring to in-depth three times both in this thread and in others as well.
I don't want it to happen because I'm particularly fond of the stage regarding its physical traits and characteristics, which I'm most certainly not, ESPECIALLY NOT when applied to Vegeta (I know some DBZ fans have been fantasizing over it for years and would have an orgasm if they saw it actually happen, but I quite honestly believe it would look awkwardly wrong on Vegeta, regardless of the outfit he's wearing at the time, and this is coming from someone who has Vegeta as his favorite all-time Dragonball character, so I have high standards for him regarding pretty much everything, from personality and clothes to power and appearance).
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sintzu wrote:
BlackCatScott wrote:
?udging by the titles we should be getting Vegetas bingo song/dance imminently :P
Hopefully we'll get more scenes of him trying to keep Beerus happy before his dance.
They could very well go for once more (major) change in the depiction of the events when compared to BoG and scrap the entire thing about Vegeta being so frightful of Beerus and subsequently ditching his pride on numerous occasions to keep anyone from causing Beerus to lose it. I think that we've already went through the process of (re)introducing the characters in a proper way in the first episodes of DBSuper, and there might be no place for additional Vegeta's silly/funny/comic moments such as the bingo dance. After his fulfilling of his promise to Trunks in episode 2 he went right back to his training and gave the impression of having fully regressed to his obsession to overcome and surpass not only Kakarotto, but indeed anyone in the Universe, so his entire approach to any circumstances from now on in the series COULD very well be much more serious than what we saw in BoG.
Just because he knows of Beerus' insane level of power and imminent danger, it shouldn't mean that he'll approach him with the same level of caution and utter and sheer terror as he displayed in the movie. In BoG, he goes as far as to say that it would be an honor to be eradicated by the Hakaishin Beerus himself, but I highly doubt we'll get any of that from Vegeta after him having reacquired his full desire to be serious and indeed obsessive about his training and fighting prowess (and, obviously, his pride).
He'll obviously try to keep anyone from causing Beerus to get angry, but I'd say - or at least I hope - he doesn't go to such great lengths (to the point of entirely ditching his pride in more than once occasion) to prevent others from upsetting the Hakaishin. He could very well explain to everybody who and what Beerus is beforehand, which would partially help explain the title chosen for episode 6 and prevent anyone from offending Beerus in any way right from the start (which will obviously end up being a failed move, as someone WILL definitely trigger an angry reaction by Beerus, with the latter proceeding to KO everyone just as effortlessly as he did in BoG).
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Araki wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
You do realise that episode titles don't describe everything going on in the episode? Episode 2 talked about Vegeta and his family trip yet that lasted only half an ep and the other half was Whis and Beerus time.
Yeah, Toei's famous for doing that. He's talking as if the first episode was all about Satan deciding who should he give the award to, based on the title..
MaGyunia wrote:
Episodes 13 and 14, and possibly 15, will probably work mostly as rather smooth episodes just like the ones we got in-between the major arcs throughout DBZ
I'm actually expecting the time between BoG and RoF to be pretty important, as there are gaps to fill there. Goku going after Whis, Vegeta joining him and becoming SSG, the training, how they tapped into SSGSS the first time..
Maybe the RoF arc will last about 12 episodes too, but including those ones.
When I said that we should get the beginning of the Freeza arc by episode 16 I included those events in the arc itself (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to go off to train under Whis, and Freeza's training), which happened off-screen at some between BoG and Fukkatsu no F or indeed DURING Fukkatsu no F.
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Araki wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
You do realise that episode titles don't describe everything going on in the episode? Episode 2 talked about Vegeta and his family trip yet that lasted only half an ep and the other half was Whis and Beerus time.
Yeah, Toei's famous for doing that. He's talking as if the first episode was all about Satan deciding who should he give the award to, based on the title..
MaGyunia wrote:
Episodes 13 and 14, and possibly 15, will probably work mostly as rather smooth episodes just like the ones we got in-between the major arcs throughout DBZ
I'm actually expecting the time between BoG and RoF to be pretty important, as there are gaps to fill there. Goku going after Whis, Vegeta joining him and becoming SSG, the training, how they tapped into SSGSS the first time..
Maybe the RoF arc will last about 12 episodes too, but including those ones.
When I said that we should get the beginning of the Freeza arc by episode 16 I included those events in the arc itself (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to go off to train under Whis, how and why both Goku and Vegeta decide and manage to develop a further transformation by going Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and Freeza's training), which happened off-screen at some between BoG and Fukkatsu no F or indeed DURING Fukkatsu no F.
Blade wrote:
Mutation is just about the best word I've heard to describe Vegeta's huge power increase during Battle of Gods from an in-universe perspective. It plays ball with the established logic and the dreaded transformation multipliers, the rigidity of which should seem to make it nigh on impossible for Vegeta surpass Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 in either his Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 form.
A mutation is something unexpected and abnormal, an outlier, a freakish event or occurrence. It's perfect in the context,
It's precisely that level or rigidity that should make it impossible for Vegeta to surpass Goku without undergoing an actual, physical Super Saiya-jin transformation. Basically you defend the theory that it is indeed possible to go beyond the supposed limits "imposed" by a particular Super Saiya-jin stage in certain specific circumstances, such as an explosion of anger or other trigger, and you'll most likely be proven right.
However, I've always held the theory that there is indeed that level of rigidity to each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and a limit of power each stage can grant, rendering it impossible to become any stronger unless also undergoing another Super Saiya-jin transformation (namely the next in line), EXCEPT for the case of fusions, otherwise it would be impossible, for example, for Super Vegitto to be about twice as strong as Goku even without going Super Saiya-jin 3. The only exception to my theory was provided by the fusion technique, but there could be others, namely Vegeta's episode upon seeing Bulma getting it Beerus.
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[quote="Hujio"][quote="Chuquita"]Mutation's a weird word choice. Makes me think of ninja turtles, zombies, and rare diseases; not so much power-up transformation sequences.
Could someone please explain further about the "mutation" kanji?[/quote]
The kanji for "mutation" is ???? ([i]totsuzenhen'i[/i]). To break it down, it is comprised of ?? ([i]totsuzen[/i]), meaning "abrupt" or "sudden", and ?? ([i]hen'i[/i]), meaning "variation". So when combined in Japanese, it can be thought of as an "abrupt variation" in something, or as every dictionary you'll look it up in lists it, "mutation". In this case it's clearly referring to Vegeta's abrupt rage-induced beat-down of Beerus. Besides, "Vegeta's Furious Abrupt Variation" just sounds really weird and awkward, as much as it may make a little more sense. Also, I honestly have no idea where people are drawing this "he's going to go Super Saiyan 3" thing from, but I suppose it makes for more lively discussions.[/quote]
In my case, it's to have a particular theory proven or disproven on the power boosts and limits of power "imposed" by each Super Saiya-jin stage, as well as on the way the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin transformations work when compared to the other, "regular" Super Saiya-jin transformations.
I'm not going to explain the theory in-depth once again, as I've done it three times in more than one thread.
Again, in no way do I want to see Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, I've never been a fan of the physical characteristics of the transformation, especially when applied (if applied) to Vegeta.
But that's just my reason to have postulated the potential of having Vegeta become/become able to become Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper (and, in the movies' non-canon timeline, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
In my case it's not about wanting it to happen, it's about a possibility which I've always regarded as far-fetched, even after reading the names of the episodes yesterday and the word "mutation".
In all other cases, I believe postulating that scenario has to do with the fact that it's one of an interminable list of transformations or events fans would like to see happening and they've been fantasizing about for almost two decades. Not me.
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Araki wrote:
I'm actually expecting the time between BoG and RoF to be pretty important, as there are gaps to fill there. Goku going after Whis, Vegeta joining him and becoming SSG, the training, how they tapped into SSGSS the first time..
Maybe the RoF arc will last about 12 episodes too, but including those ones.
When I said that we should get the beginning of the Freeza arc by episode 16 I included those exact events, or gaps, as you call them, in the arc itself (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Goku and Vegeta's decision to go off to train under Whis, how and why both Goku and Vegeta decide and manage to develop a further transformation by going Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and Freeza's training), which happened off-screen at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F or indeed DURING Fukkatsu no F.
Hujio wrote:
The kanji for "mutation" is ???? (totsuzenhen'i). To break it down, it is comprised of ?? (totsuzen), meaning "abrupt" or "sudden", and ?? (hen'i), meaning "variation". So when combined in Japanese, it can be thought of as an "abrupt variation" in something, or as every dictionary you'll look it up in lists it, "mutation". In this case it's clearly referring to Vegeta's abrupt rage-induced beat-down of Beerus. Besides, "Vegeta's Furious Abrupt Variation" just sounds really weird and awkward, as much as it may make a little more sense. Also, I honestly have no idea where people are drawing this "he's going to go Super Saiyan 3" thing from, but I suppose it makes for more lively discussions.
In my case, it's to have a particular theory proven or disproven on the power boosts and limits of power "imposed" by each Super Saiya-jin stage, as well as on the way the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin transformations work when compared to the other, "regular" Super Saiya-jin transformations.
I'm not going to explain the theory in-depth once again, as I've done it three times in more than one thread.
Again, in no way do I want to see Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, I've never been a fan of the physical characteristics of the transformation, especially when applied (if applied) to Vegeta.
But that's just my reason to have postulated the potential of having Vegeta become/become able to become Super Saiya-jin 3 either during or after the Beerus arc in DBSuper (and, in the movies' non-canon timeline, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
In my case it's not about wanting it to happen, it's about a possibility which I've always regarded as far-fetched, even after reading the names of the episodes yesterday and the word "mutation".
In all other cases, I believe postulating that scenario has to do with the fact that it's one of an interminable list of transformations or events fans would like to see happening and they've been fantasizing about for almost two decades. Not me.
Blade wrote:
Mutation is just about the best word I've heard to describe Vegeta's huge power increase during Battle of Gods from an in-universe perspective. It plays ball with the established logic and the dreaded transformation multipliers, the rigidity of which should seem to make it nigh on impossible for Vegeta surpass Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 in either his Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 form.
A mutation is something unexpected and abnormal, an outlier, a freakish event or occurrence. It's perfect in the context,
It's precisely that level or rigidity that should make it impossible for Vegeta to surpass Goku without undergoing an actual, physical Super Saiya-jin transformation beyond SSJ2. Basically you defend the theory that it is indeed possible to go beyond the supposed limits "imposed" by a particular Super Saiya-jin stage in certain specific circumstances, such as an explosion of anger or other trigger, and you'll most likely be proven right.
However, I've always held the theory that there is indeed that level of rigidity to each of the Super Saiya-jin stages, and a limit of power each stage can grant, rendering it impossible to become any stronger unless also undergoing another Super Saiya-jin transformation (namely the next in line), EXCEPT for the case of fusions, otherwise it would be impossible, for example, for Super Vegitto to be about twice as strong as Goku even without going Super Saiya-jin 3. The only exception to my theory was provided by the fusion technique, but there could be others, namely Vegeta's episode upon seeing Bulma getting hit by Beerus.
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Can't believe I found someone who shares the exact same list of three all-time favorite Dragonball characters in the same exact order: Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan. Wow. You must be an interesting guy.
Back on the discussion, when it's said in BoG (by Muten Roshi and by Vegeta himself at the end of the movie) that Vegeta "finally surpassed Goku" they're obviously referring to Goku at his strongest (at the time), as in, his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, not his strongest in the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage. At their respective Super Saiya-jin 2 stages, Goku and Vegeta are probably exactly on par, as shown by the toe-to-toe battle they had in the early Majin Buu arc after Vegeta let himself become possessed by Babidi.
I also believe there are different tendencies as to what the triggers are regarding the achievement of each Super Saiya-jin stage. The first is usually triggered by an explosion of anger (Goku over Freeza murdering Krillin in front of him, Mirai no Trunks over Gohan's death, Vegeta over his frustration at not being able to surpass Kakarotto, Gohan over... well, over himself being a pampered child, Bardock - although non-canon - over his frustration for not being able to match the power of Chilled/Freeza and avenge his lost comrades); it could be argued that the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage is achieved through intense training, and so is the stage of Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai; the Super Saiya-jin Full Power stage is achieved by a complete "mastery" of the regular Super Saiya-jin stage, balancing power/Ki output/stamina and becoming used to being in the stage without the typical physical strain and energy consumption, which probably demands an extremely gifted/talented Saiya-jin and a lot of work; the Super Saiya-jin 2 is where things start to differ, since Gohan achieved it through an explosion of anger (one of the numerous instances where he just lost it throughout the series, although in the Cell Games he retained a certain level of control when compared to other occurences), while both Goku and Vegeta arguably achieve it through intense training at some point in the 7 year period between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc; the Super Saiya-jin 3 is probably only achievable by a formidably gifted Saiya-jin after intensive training as well, and is indeed so overwhelmingly powerful that it causes a lot of strain on the body and has its own time limitations and restrictions.
As for the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages, I've been defending all along that they're rather separate events, achieved through entirely different means when compared to the other SSJ stages, which basically build upon the previous one. The Super Saiya-jin God especially is much more a Kaio-Ken-esque power-up than anything else, but taking into account the enormous and massive power levels of both Goku and Vegeta when they achieve it, the resulting power they output in the stage is absolutely fantastic, to the point of being able to challenge Beerus to some degree, as seen in BoG, whereas Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin is most likely a complete mastery of the SSJG stage, beyond that of being able to use its power and abilities in the base form (seen in BoG and while they try to hit Whis), by adding the fighting stress and agressiveness typical of any SSJ stage, along with a slight power boost (again, just another theory).
The other theory I've been over-presenting recently on why part of me would like to see Vegeta go Super Saiya-jin 3 has to do with the way I've always theorized how the Super Saiya-jin transformations work in terms of the power boost they provide and what limits are "imposed" to each SSJ stage, and also in what exact way and to what extent the Super Saiya-jin God enhances the power of the Saiya-jin who undergoes the transformation (increasing the Saiya-jin's multiplying their MAXIMUM strength, instead of the strength of their base form - if that's the way the transformation works in terms of power boost, then for it to make sense that Vegeta is on par with Goku in Fukkatsu no F in their respective Super Saiya-jin God stages, then Vegeta's maximum power MUST be equal to that of Goku when NOT transformed into SSJG or SSJGSSJ, which means Super Saiya-jin 3, hence the whole thing about Vegeta going/being able to go Super Saiya-jin 3).
Again, personally it has absolutely nothing to do with how good I think it would look on him or how cool it would be, on the contrary. The Super Saiya-jin 3's physical characteristics have never appealed to me a lot, and I believe it would look especially bad on Vegeta, much worse than it does on Goku or Gotenks.
I've been over-presenting this theory and we've been over-discussing the Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta thing. Apart from my own personal theory, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that he could or should go Super Saiya-jin 3 apart from fans fantasizing over it for some reason. It didn't happen in BoG, and it almost certainly won't happen in the DBSuper version of his battle against Beerus either, and the whole "mutation" term present in the episode's title doesn't increase the possibility by that much either.
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Setting aside the whole over-debated Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta theory, the most important thing is that they give him (and indeed all the others, especially Piccolo and Gohan) the proper fighting time when charging on Beerus. Doesn't mean they should give him any trouble, that's one major thing they should never change when compared to BoG. In the series, Beerus should be able to knock all of them out as easliy, effortlessly and almost as quickly as he did in the movie, to further demonstrate just how enormous the gap is between his degree of power and that of ANYONE on Earth (even Goku, before he underwent the Super Saiya-jin God transformation). However, stretching the fights a little bit longer in DBSuper (especially Vegeta, who was already the one on Earth after Goku who lasted more than one or two blows to be KO'd and even had a second chance to go at Beerus) would not only please a large chunk of hardcore fans who viewed the fighting aspect and dynamics as one of the greatest things about DB and DBZ back in the 80's and 90's, it would also help them "fill" the episodes with something interesting rather than having the old Chi Chi or Muten Roshi routines, which have gotten old ages ago, all over again.
We've had enough of (re)introducing the main characters (except Piccolo, in my opinion, although I can understand that he only becomes a fundamental element when serious or menacing events occur), it's time for BOTH Beerus to display his enormous power AND for all the others to do so as well, despite the massive difference (like I said, displaying their trademark techniques against Beerus would be a good move - why not have Piccolo throw a Makankosappo at Beerus instead of having him throw only a kick?).
The way Piccolo is KO'd, for example, should also be maintained, though, as it demonstrates just how skillful a martial artist Beerus is, beyond sheer Ki and massive destructive force, but knocking Ultimate Gohan, one of the strongest fighters there ever was, out with a single kick to the stomach would seem disappointing to me. Since this is a series and not a movie, and consequently they don't have to deal with the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature, even a longer one, they MUST put more emphasis on the fighting aspect now that we're finally going to get down to it. Dragonball is humor, character development, awesome backgrounds and storylines, values, randomness, but it's also violence and fantastic fights, to the point of being unreal.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Setting aside the whole over-debated Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta theory, the most important thing is that they give him the proper fighting time when charging on Beerus.
A long fight is the one thing I want more then him going Ssj3 so hopefully they give him one that's longer and overall better then what he got in BOG and animated sparks for his Ssj2 would be welcomed as well.
But we should focus on tomorrow's episode first. Most of us are forgetting that we'll most likely be seeing more than half on an episode dedicated to the acquaintance between Goku and Beerus and their subsequent fight. We need to remember that in BoG the entire showdown in Kaiou-sama's planet from the moment Goku first charged Beerus until he was KO'd lasted one minute. Goku will probably be just as over-confident of his abilities - for good reasons, he's become one of the strongest fighters there ever was during the Majin Buu arc - and will show off as he presents each of his Super Saiya-jin transformations to Beerus and Whis. I hope he gets gradually more and more frustrated upon realizing just how strong Beerus really is while he tries to land a punch or kick on him, and I can't wait to see both how Beerus blocks/dodges/neutralizes his Kamehameha and how he KO's Goku (staying with the way shown in BoG would be a good idea, a single chop to the neck as a masterfully-applied pressure-point attack after which he walks away whistling would be fantastic, although we've already seen it).
I also hope that whatever makes finally Beerus lose it on Earth doesn't immediately lead to a full-attack that quickly/hastily as we saw in BoG. I mean, Beerus just shouted + powered up, had a skirmish with Majin Buu and sent him away flying, they shouldn't react so hastily as they did in the movie. He didn't do anything that would suggest he was supposed to be a menace (on the contrary, he blends in quite well with people he just met, even breakdancing and stuff). It was one of the poorly developed scenes in BoG, one which has the potential to be properly expanded upon and explored in the series, since they don't need to worry about the time.
I really can't wait to watch all of these fights. Goddamn it, finally we get down to serious fighting business. Shouldn't be anywhere close to what we saw throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, but if it's half that good, I'll still have an orgasm and watch it hundreds of times.
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coola wrote:
Personally, like i said in another post, i would love them to redo Freeza training, prodigy or not, going from 120.000.000 to over Super Buu in just 4 month is little too much, i will take anything, have Freeza don't know what month is, or place where time flies slower.
I've personally always found Freeza's ENORMOUS increase in power - regardless of him being a prodigy even within his own race or not - by Fukkatsu no F - as something that required a more in-depth explanation in order to be fully accepted by the hardcore fandom.
We're talking about a character who could be beaten by the lowest level of a Super Saiya-jin back on Namek in the Freeza arc. Since then, an interminable sequence of fighters overcoming each other and reaching entirely different stages of power have occurred throghout DBZ. Freeza, at his 100%, is defeated by Super Saiya-jin Goku, who is about as strong as Super Saiya-jin Mirai no Trunks when he arrives, who happens to dispatch Freeza and his father with no effort whatsoever. By the Jinzouningen arc, that same Mirai no Trunks, and even Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who is arguably above him, have no chance against #17 and #18, let alone Cell in his second stage; Vegeta goes Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai and yet again turns the tables in favor of the good guys by thrashing semi-perfect Cell, but is overwhelmed and easily KO'd by Perfect Cell, who in turn is no match for Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan; that same Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, although as an adult and presumably having lost a bit of power due to lack of training, is said (by Piccolo) to be BELOW both Super Saiya-jin 2 Majin Vegeta 2 and Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku, both of whom are no match for fat Majin Buu, who in turn is below ANY of the various forms taken by Super Buu and indeed Kid Buu, who is about in the leagues of Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku; none of these fighters have absolutely any chance against Super Vegitto, who's about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.
I could have included a much higher number of fighters who are far, far more powerful than Freeza at his strongest, all of them throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs (not counting the movies, of course, as they're non-canon side-stories, but if we did we'd have to include the likes of, for example, Cooler, Brolly, Bio Brolly, Janenba, #13 and Bojack).
Understanding just how Freeza managed to overcome all of these gaps in such a short time and go from being someone who could by defeated by as early as the Freeza arc to someone with a level of power in the leagues of Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta and Beerus (who all far surpass ANY of the fighters mentioned in the previous paragraph) is something I'd like to have explained to me at least in a more detailed way. They could, and most likely will, go for an argument along the lines of "he's just a prodigy even within his own race, he's a freak of nature, his power is immeasurable, etc., etc.), but if no satisfactory explanation is provided in the Freeza arc of DBSuper to account for Freeza's overcoming of ALL these numerous gaps, and I doubt it will, then I''ll just assume they partially hastily went for the concept of Freeza being a freak of nature with a theoretically endless power, in order to make him as much of a serious menace to Goku and Vegeta as possible even in terms of power and danger goes.
Overall, I think we all agree that BoG was better put together than Fukkatsu no F and was, all in all, a better movie, with better character development and backgrounds, with more humor without losing its degree of arguable seriousness and drama, with better fights, better animation, better characters and basically a far superior plot. I'm just not sure whether the series' depiction of the events in the respective Beerus and Freeza arcs within it are going to reflect that same difference in "quality", but since the basis is the same, I guess it will. The only advantage the events of Fukkatsu no F have over those of BoG is the fact that there are a number of off-screen events which "happened" between or during the movie itself that SHOULD and MUST be explored and be put on-screen in the Freeza arc (Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin God himself, Whis accepting to train both Goku and Vegeta, their decision to go further with yet another stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and Freeza's training).
One question which has struck my mind before regarding Freeza too: He appeared in numerous occasions in cameos throughout DBZ and in the movies either in filler or non-canon content, but when Fukkastu no F was released it was supposed and announced to be a direct canon continuation of BoG, which itself was also canon (none of which are so anymore, of course). Why the hell didn't they think of reviving him any sooner than this? Why did it take 14 years for them to conceive the idea of reviving Freeza, especially taking into account the fact that they do so easily in the movie? Freeza himself complains about the time it took them to revive him in the movie. :D
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You guys ready for some serious ass-kicking in a few hours by Hakaishin Beerus in a slightly stretched-out version of the fight in Kaiou-sama's planet in BoG? Hope you are, because that's what you're gonna get That's probably the event to which I've been most looking forward when it comes to the concept of the very "next episode" so far since DBSuper started running.
Also, always interesting to see just what slight (or major) modifications or small additions they throw here and there to fill the episode and stretch it out a bit longer, not only during the fight itself and other events dealing with other characters in the episode, but also how Kaiou-sama reacts to Beerus' presence, to Goku's way of introducing himself to him and his request to have Beerus show his power. I'd be fine both if they didn't change a thing in these events when compared to BoG and if they went for a slightly altered version.
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Doctor. wrote:
I'd be ready if I didn't know how it goes and wasn't expecting inferior animation compared to the movie. What's making me excited for episode 5 is Champa's potential appearance, because I'd be a lot more excited if I didn't watch BoG first.
Don't quite understand why you're getting your hopes high on Champa making his appearance already in episode 5. The picture we saw a few days ago was just half of the full image we had seen weeks before depicting the interaction between Champa and Beerus, nothing there suggests he should be showing up already in episode 5.
In fact, since he's most likely somehow connected to the 6th Universe, I'd say he'll only show up much later, indeed after the Freeza arc, when we move on to the 6th Universe arc (of which he could very well be the Hakaishin for, although there are other possible theories).
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Doctor. wrote:
I'd be ready if I didn't know how it goes and wasn't expecting inferior animation compared to the movie. What's making me excited for episode 5 is Champa's potential appearance, because I'd be a lot more excited if I didn't watch BoG first.
Don't quite understand why you're getting your hopes high on Champa making his appearance already in episode 5. The picture we saw a few days ago was just half of the full image we had seen weeks before depicting the interaction between Champa and Beerus, nothing there suggests he should be showing up already in episode 5.
In fact, since he's most likely somehow connected to the 6th Universe, I'd say he'll only show up much later, indeed after the Freeza arc, when we move on to the 6th Universe arc (of which he could very well be the Hakaishin for, although there are other possible theories).
But yeah, although it's pointless to discuss it now, I think we all agree that it would blow us away in a much more explosive fashion if DBSuper introduced ENTIRELY new villains, characters, stages and events right from the start. Retelling both BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs within DBSuper in the form of episodes has its own benefits but also quite a bit of disadvantages (we pretty much already know what's gonna happen, which a few minor changes and additions here and there).
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Doctor. wrote:
Champa already appears in chapter 2 of the manga, whilst Beerus and Goku are having their battle. So unless Toyotaro is doing his own thing, and Toei is animating stuff early just to show in one trailer, then it seems pretty unlikely that Champa won't appear in today's episode.
If that happens it could be regarded as an interesting development, as we would be presented to an ENTIRELY new character (in fact, two, counting Champa's attendant) as early as episode 5, which would suit me just fine as far as the rythym of the storyline progression goes.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I guess when the BOG arc is over then we will see what happens with the Z fighters before the ROF arc. I think we will find out on how Vegeta finally becomes a Super Saiyan God.
The exact same way Goku achieves the stage. If they go for the the exact Saiya-jin ritual seen in BoG or a slightly altered version of it (and I hope they don't), then at some point - and this NEEDS to be shown on-screen during DBSuper - I'd smile and laugh at everyone going around Vegeta holding hands while HE is the center of the attention this time, not Kakarotto.
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After getting beaten by Goku's Kaio-Ken x3 stage, and after witnessing his blood spilt, he basically loses it and probably loses the self-control and the ability to use his intelligence and rationality, he's far too much focused on the fight - and on the shocking fact he's losing, especially - to care about the Dragon Balls for quite a while, and he's certainly not thinking about immortality or Freeza at that particular point when he decides to fully power-up and charge his Gallic Gun.
However, he obviously retained just enough rationality to avoid committing suicide, so if the Gallic Gun indeed hit the Earth and completely destroyed it, he most likely knew that he would be able to escape death by either generating a barrier to keep the oxygen he needed to live in space (like many characters are shown to do throughout DBZ, including Saiya-jin, and indeed Vegeta) or by reaching his capsule fast enough to escape the planet after the destruction of its core, which would take its time to cause the eventual and inevitable explosion of the entire planet itself.
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I've been finding myself every Saturday night (9am in Japan actually represents 1am in Portugal) already having developed an entire routine to watch each new episode of DBSuper. As soon as it hits 10pm or 11pm, lights go out and its time to reach down the greatest recesses of Dragonball fandom once again, and now I get to do it every week.
I've even started to watch and actually pay attention to Fuji TV's early morning programs as some sort of weird (or not-so-weird) build-up to the episode itself.
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I've been finding myself every Saturday night (9am in Japan actually represents 1am in Portugal) already having developed an entire routine to watch each new episode of DBSuper. As soon as it hits 10pm or 11pm, lights go out and its time to reach down the greatest recesses of Dragonball fandom once again, and now I get to do it every week.
I've even started to watch and actually pay attention to Fuji TV's early morning programs as some sort of weird (or not-so-weird) build-up to the episode itself.
Bullza wrote:
So it's Goku vs Beerus the retelling in a few hours. Should give something more to talk about in this thread than last week at least.
I'm curious to know if the line about the Fusion not being enough will be kept in or not. Is Goku going to be just as helpless as he was in the movie or are they going to nerf Beerus?
We will soon find out.
I'm definitely positive that they're going to keep Goku light-years behind Beerus. It is a fundamental aspect of the plot to show just how enormous and unreachable the gap is between the likes of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (or any of his other stages) when compared to the power of Hakaishin Beerus.
That said, the fight will definitely be much longer (in BoG, Beerus KO's Goku in a matter of a minute), most likely more than half of the episode, and that's obviously a massively good reason to get hyped, since we'll finally get the proper fighting time we've been waiting for ever since the series debuted.
They'll indeed stretch it, with a few additions and changes here and there - maybe Goku's mention of fusion with Vegeta would be pointless as well against Beerus will be left out -, and Goku will grow more and more desperate as he finds out that not even when he gets serious and fights with all his might he just can land a single kick or punch in Beerus.
Although the fight will be, presumably, quite a bit longer when compared to that of the movie, in my view they shouldn't change the fact that Beerus blocks/overwhelms/dodges Goku's attacks as easily as he does in BoG and then KO's just as effortlessly (keeping the masterfully-applied pressure-point attack to the neck we've seen in BoG would be one thing they shoulndn't change).
Right now I just wanna see the fight itself, as I regard the awesome fighting aspect and dynamics of Dragonball to have been one of the major advantages the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ had, to the point of being (positively) uneral, but I'm also obviously curious about the immediate aftermath (will Beerus leave off whistling right after KO'ing Goku?; will Goku regain a slight degree of consciousness soon after and ponder on how Beerus actually was?; will he consider what Super Saiya-jin God is as well while beaten on the ground, and will he mention the fact that not even Fusion with Vegeta would work on Beerus?)
All of these should be complete within this episode, or maybe they could spill a little to the sixth, but the next one will definitely be already focused on Beerus' interactions with the ones on Earth.
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sintzu wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
sintzu wrote:
I think these are fake cause they go against the official episode titles that were released yesterday which don't include episode 9.
Look above you :P
I can't read Japanese but if you mean they're real cause they're in that link then why would ep7 be called "How Dare You Hit My Bulma!" if she doesn't get hit till ep8 ?
She'll probably get hit by Beerus in the very last moment of the episode and Vegeta subsequently losing it and undergoing a power boost without actually undergoing any physical transformation (other than normal Super Saiya-jin 2), ending that way (much in the same way a number of DB and DBZ episodes did), and episode 8 will begin with Vegeta charging Beerus for a while longer than he did in BoG.
The way they're presenting and describing the events in each of the episodes, especially from 5/6 onwards seems to be being done in a much closer light when compared to what happened in BoG. Maybe it will feel like watching the movie all over again, but I'm sure we'll get all sorts of small modifications and additions to compensate for that potentially disappointing feeling.
Describing Goku as "just might having a way to find a Super Saiya-jin God" leaves me automatically to think that they'll indeed go and call Shenlong to ask him what/who Super Saiya-jin God is, leading to Shenlong's explanation of the ritual underwent by the original SSJG on Planet Vegeta, which pretty much would mean that they'll go for the exact same ritual, either dropping the number of Saiya-jin needed by one or by changing it when compared to BoG by having Pan already conceived at this point, which would have repercussions in her age and the last 3 episodes of DBZ, but let's not discuss that all over again.
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Little over half an hour to go. Wonder if Beerus will be as polite towards Goku as he was in BoG while introducing to him. He's generally polite despite his massive power and destructive tendencies (a bit like Freeza, in that regard), and he even always uses "boku" when referring to himself, which is a pretty well-mannered and well-spoken, rather polite way of addressing others. I hope he keeps that and that's one of the things they shouldn't change in DBSuper's version of the acquaintance + fight when compared to BoG.
Going back to the whole Beerus being deemed "evil" or "good" we discussed a few days ago, one additional thing: you've never seen Freeza, Cell or any other major psychotic, megalomaniacal super-villain apologize for hitting someone and causing a fuss like Beerus did at the end of the movie. He's not a villain, nor a good guy. He's not "evil", nor is he "good", he's no one's ally, he has a mission and just does it. He's probably so strange an entity that his concept of "evil" or "wrongdoing" and "righteousness" is entirely different to him, or not understood at all as it is with regular, emotional beings.
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Can't wait to go through the entire experience YET again of watching it at the same exact time as all of you. The opening them doesn't leave my head and the episode itself, regarding its content, will be by far the most entertaining/serious one in the fighting department so far in DBSuper. Goddamn it, I love this.
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Bullza wrote:
How much trouble do I get in if I ask if someone can PM me a link to the stream to watch it? :lol:
Jesus, man, use Google. It might take you a few minutes to find one, but don't give up and you'll eventually find one working in perfect conditions.
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13 minutes to go.
Get your ass ready to be kicked, Goku. Hakaishin Beerus is coming!
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First thoughts:
- The acquaintance interaction between Beerus and Goku went along the EXACT same lines (and I do mean literally same exact "lines")
- The fight did indeed take up more than half of the episode
- Beerus did block the Kamehameha. I was curious how he would do it. He blocked it with a single finger.
- The major hole was created by the Kamehameha, not by a massively powerful punch.
- Just as we thought, he charged Beerus in each of his Super Saiya-jin stages and was unable to land a single kick or punch on him, even in his maximum, Super Saija-jin 3 stage, but that was just to be expected. They should have never change the way Beerus effortlessly dodges Goku's single charge and attack on him in this fight at Kaiou-sama's place.
- Gregory did speak for the first time.
- The way he was KO'd showed that Beerus (not exactly the same, but similar to the masterfully-applied pressure-point attacked to the neck in the movie), although letting the fight last much longer than it did in BoG, was much more serious and less humorous and laid-back as he showed himself to be during this interaction in BoG.
- He did mention the possibility of Fusion with Vegeta, stating that even that would probably be not enough to beat Beerus (just like in BoG), and furthermore seems to ponder what Beerus said about the "Super Saiya-jin God" right upon regaining consciousness.
- Glad that the sparking blue electricity was remember when Goku goes Super Saiya-jin 2, although the way it flows is not the same in terms of rythym and quickness as we've seen in Gohan (Cell Games), Goku and Vegeta (Majin Buu arc).
- In the preview for episode 6, Yamcha is shown "slapping" Beerus in a friendly manner (for those of you Yamcha lovers) and Vegeta is shown falling :lol:
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Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Horrible animation aside, please tell me we got Champa this episode?
Why would we? There was absolutely nothing to suggest he would show up this soon. He's most likely connected in some way to the 6th Universe, so it makes sense that he'll show up only after the Freeza arc when we get to explore the 6th Universe, as he's most likely its Hakaishin (although there are other possibilities).
I see all of you complaining about the animation. It was indeed terrible, especially when compared to the movie, but even to the other episodes, but I can't call this the least enjoyable episode of DBSuper so far, because I value content more than I do visuals.
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Bullza wrote:
Well it played out similar to the movie except he didn't punch a whole through it now he used a Kamehameha instead. Not sure if the Fusion line was there or not.
It was. He said exactly the same thing as in BoG. "Not even a Fusion with Vegeta would probably be enough for a guy like that", something along these lines.
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
TripleRach wrote:
As far as the animation goes, whoa guys. This isn't the end of the world. :crazy:
Not the end of the world, but you gotta admit, that was some pretty horrible animation. Some of the scenes looked like they drew them with their feet, or grabbed someone from the mail room to fill in for the key animator while he was on lunch break.
Especially taking into account these two facts:
- It's 2015, Dragonball should be getting AWESOME animation in every single second of every single of its episodes, period.
- This was arguably the most-anticipated event so far in DBSuper, it was the first real big fight, and it turns out to be drawn and animated in something close to horrible/shameful. They could have saved the crappy animation for insignificant events, if they really have to "choose".
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No need to cry in a corner or think this is the end of the world just because we've had a somewhat major setback with next-to-horrible/shameful animation in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far. And no need to organize as fans against Toei either, that won't produce any effects.
I'm obviously disappointed with the quality of the animation during the fight, it was indeed awful, I concede that, but, like I said, I value the content more than I do the visuals. With that said, I do hope that this doesn't happen again and that in the fights everyone will have against Beerus on Earth in the following episodes won't be animated along these lines, otherwise I may actually start to get disappointed, frustrated and pissed.
This isn't some cheap cartoon. This is Dragonball and it's 2015, for f***'s sake. Was it really necessary to throw such unsatisfactory animation our way in such an anticipated fight?
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Neo-Makaioshin wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Especially taking into account these two facts:
- It's 2015, Dragonball should be getting AWESOME animation in every single second of every single of its episodes, period.
- This was arguably the most-anticipated event so far in DBSuper, it was the first real big fight, and it turns out to be drawn and animated in something close to horrible/shameful. They could have saved the crappy animation for insignificant events, if they really have to "choose".
Unfortunately, animation is not cheap, a single episode is worth at least over $145000 (not sure how much i changed in 2015).
In regards to animation, what i see many complaining is only characters being off model in certain shots/sequence (as i do), taking that out of the way animation was at least fluid, so not really bad.
I never said anything about it being "cheap", I said "crappy".
Dude, in some of the shots Goku's face looks like a f***** Pokemon drawn by a child. And again, this comes from a guy who values content more than visuals.
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You've been posting pictures depicting shots from episodes drawn by multiple animation teams. It's pretty obvious for someone with two fully functioning eyes, especially someone who is a DBZ fan and presumably watched the episodes over and over again for years, that there are over 10 animation teams for DB + DBZ, which work on the episodes on an alternate basis (as in, there's "animation team A", which is pretty bad, "animation team B", which is fantastic but the characters don't move too much, "animation team C", which is horrible, "animation team D", which is gorgeous, and so on and so on). They worked in a basis of: episode 1 - animation team A; episode 2 - animation team B; episode 3 - animation team C; 4 - animation team D; episode 5 - animation team A; episode 6 - animation team B; episode 7 - animation team C, etc., etc.
The animation team behind episode 96, of which you posted a picture of Super Saiya-jin Goku earlier, was the same team of episodes 1, 5, 26, 45, 53, 55, 62, 79, 83, 85, 118, 128, 132, 145, 149, 161, 178, 180 and so on.
My favorite animation team(s) regarding how good the episodes/characters/animation/fights look are the one seen in episodes 4, 25, 31, 81, 87, 125, 130, 166, 179, 268 and so on, and the one used in episodes 21, 28, 34 or 64, and the one used in episodes 142 and 164. The one used in episode 162 (Vegeta's Final Flash) is also used in a number of episodes during the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, and it's pretty good (it's the one responsible for episode 147 too, for example).
The REAL horrible animation team was the one behind episodes 6, 28, 33, 46, 51, 66, 80, 84, 94, 104, 116, 126, 131, 144, 148, 158, 163, 167, 175, 289, and so on.
Take a look at all these examples of episodes again and you'll see what I mean by all of these animation teams working in the episodes on an alternate basis, it's pretty obvious that they could only use REAL good animation for a few episodes, and had to have rather cheap animation for about the other half of the episodes in the entirety of DBZ.
I've noticed the different animation behind the episodes on an alternate basis since I was a small child. Each animation team was responsible for each episode in its totality. From one episode to the next, the difference is quite often huge. But all of these were OBVIOUSLY working on an alternate basis on the episodes, and each of them possessed their own specific and easily identifiable characteristics in terms of drawing/movement.
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Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
MaGyunia wrote:
Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
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Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
Draconic wrote:
I don't mind the animation as much as I do the shitty (and mostly non-existent) fight choreography. After Goku turns SSJ3 it kinda picks up a little, but nothing but dodging and kicking at the air in previous SSJ stages really feels like it's filling space. It kinda defeats the purpose of doing it. If Goku can't do anything to Beerus is SSJ3, we can tell he can't in weaker forms. They should have at least do something more versatile. But no, same kick-dodge-repeat routine for almost 15 minutes.
The music when Beerus and SSJ3 Goku start talking (after Goku backs down, I think) sounded really nice.
Overall, I liked the episode. Or at least, didn't mind it. It did give a little depth to some things from the movie, after all.
Exactly, the way they move around was so lacking in movement and choreography that it looked like I was watching some f****** cartoon or something. What the hell was that? That's Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku against Hakaishin Beerus, for f****'s sake, there should be super-speed movements, stuff blowing up and rocks flying all over the place at each blow and instance of Goku trying to hit Beerus. It looked like a 2D video game from the late 80's or early 90's. Utterly ridiculous and disappointing. I won't watch this version of the fight between Goku and Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet again, whenever I want to watch that I'll go for the BoG version, even if it's just 1 minute long. They better not throw the same garbage animation and lack of movement/choreography at us when all the others on Earth have their go at Beerus (especially Piccolo and Vegeta, who'll get quite a large number of minutes of battle), if they f*** that up like they did this fight I'll officially become pissed off for the very first time at DBSuper and anything Dragonball-related for many years.
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MaGyunia wrote:
Two of the shots taken of Beerus in the preview for the next episode that someone posted earlier in this thread make me cringe. I didn't actually notice how bad they were while I was watching the preview. Beerus looks like a f***** Family Guy character, for f****'s sake. Holy shit. If they apply the same animation team for an entire episode, just like they did with all the animation teams throughout DB and DBZ on an alternate basis, then if those shots were that bad, we can expect the entire sixth episode to be just as badly animated.
There's definitely something wrong with the animation of DBSuper. I can't believe this is happening, but I'm actually starting to get a little pissed now that I've had time to absorb all of these events. I do repeat that I value content, character background, plot and storyline more than I do visuals, but the awesome fighting aspect and numerous instances of extremely well-animated episodes throughout DBZ was a major part of it too. We're not getting that in DBSuper AT ALL. Over a decade has passed, and the movies/specials/Kai they made since the reemergence of Dragonball since 2008 had decent animation; both BoG and Fukkatsu no F (along with the opening and closing for Kai and for DBSuper, the remake of Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin) had excellent animation, especially during the fights. In this one, not only the animation was horrible, the way Goku merely goes from one place to the other trying to hit Beerus while the latter just dodges him seemed ridiculous not only after I saw the episode, but actually AS I was watching it. They need to move at super-speed, the movement was bad, the animation was bad, the drawing was bad, and I think there's no excuse for this. If they didn't quite know what to do or how/in what timing to do it, they should have waited and rethink their strategy instead of throwing another series our way hastily. I bet Toriyama isn't happy with the result of this episode either (when it comes to the animation aspect).
We've had numerous instances of extremely bad animation throughout DB and DBZ in quite a large chunk of episodes, but on the other hand we've had other animation teams throwing extremely delicious and gorgeous animation with lots of movement and extremely well-drawn characters and backgrounds. We can't and really shouldn't compare something made back in the 80's and 90's with a series running in 2015, for all sorts of reasons, but it never crossed my mind that the animation would actually become an issue with DBSuper, before the series debuted or before we had any actual, real official info or details on its storyline; I was much more "worried" about the quality of the story and the whole atmosphere in which the series would be taking place in, along with the over-debated issue of dedicating a large chunk of the series (the first 25 to 30 episodes, in fact) to the retelling of events we've already seen in pretty much the exact same circumstances, although with much, much worse animation and a few minor changes and natural additions here and there.
Draconic wrote:
I don't mind the animation as much as I do the shitty (and mostly non-existent) fight choreography. After Goku turns SSJ3 it kinda picks up a little, but nothing but dodging and kicking at the air in previous SSJ stages really feels like it's filling space. It kinda defeats the purpose of doing it. If Goku can't do anything to Beerus is SSJ3, we can tell he can't in weaker forms. They should have at least do something more versatile. But no, same kick-dodge-repeat routine for almost 15 minutes.
The music when Beerus and SSJ3 Goku start talking (after Goku backs down, I think) sounded really nice.
Overall, I liked the episode. Or at least, didn't mind it. It did give a little depth to some things from the movie, after all.
Exactly, the way they move around was so lacking in movement and choreography that it looked like I was watching some f****** cartoon or something. What the hell was that? That's Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku against Hakaishin Beerus, for f****'s sake, there should be super-speed movements, stuff blowing up and rocks flying all over the place at each blow and instance of Goku trying to hit Beerus. It looked like a 2D video game from the late 80's or early 90's. Utterly ridiculous and disappointing. I won't watch this version of the fight between Goku and Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet again, whenever I want to watch that I'll go for the BoG version, even if it's just 1 minute long. They better not throw the same garbage animation and lack of movement/choreography at us when all the others on Earth have their go at Beerus (especially Piccolo and Vegeta, who'll get quite a large number of minutes of battle), if they f*** that up like they did this fight I'll officially become pissed off for the very first time at DBSuper and anything Dragonball-related for many years.
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Sorry, I screwed up, I meant to update the first post and ended up posting a new one. It was a mistake, I didn't mean to do it, and I can't seem to be able to delete any of them.
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TripleRach wrote:
You can't delete your post unless it's the most recent one in the thread. I fixed it, but I'd rather not make a habit of it. Remember the power of the "preview" button, and the thread display below.
No danger of turning something which has happened for the first time just now, only once, into a habit. Thank you.
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I think we all need to calm down a bit and rationalize this. The animation was indeed awful and it was all the more disappointing because it just "happened" to be used for the most anticipated moment in DBSuper so far, and in a major fight between two of the main characters in the series (if not THE two main characters).
But there's no need to start lashing out at Toei and postulate that Dragonball is over. It WAS over, series and movies-wise, after GT was done back in 1997. It took 11 years to get another movie/special/series, and we've been pretty satisfied and hyped with the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and up until now we've had only minor complaints about DBSuper over a few things dealing with different aspects of the series (not only animation, much more about storyline and time placement, etc.).
In retrospective, and if everything goes well from now on most of the times in terms of animation, we'll look at this episode as a disappointing one from the point of view of animation, but just one among dozens. Just a minor setback, nothing to cause us to foresee THE END OF DRAGONBALL or something like that. Chill out. Put things into perspective. No need to freak out.
Besides, if you're going to start off watching DBSuper's episodes believing that they'll have the same quality from ANY point of view when compared to the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, you're in for a major disappointment, and you should have known this since a long time ago. DB and DBZ are untouchable, that's 80's and 90's fantastic stuff, DBSuper needs no be looked from an entirely different perspective for a number of different reasons. You need to adapt to the times and HOPE that the creators of DBSuper also KNOW how to adapt DBSuper to the times and make it something that can be called a worthy follow-up to DBZ in its own particular and specific way, which, for example, GT failed miserably to be (for different reasons, though).
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
More lovable images.
Spoiler:Hide
ImageImage
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DERP, DERPITY DERP.
I'm past the point of being disappointed/angry, I actually laughed at these. This is so ridiculously badly animated and drawn that it's literally laughable.
What the F*** is this? A cartoon? Looks like it was drawn by a 4-year old DBZ-"fan" child in.
Literally, this looks like children's drawings, holy shit :x
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[quote="sintzu"][quote="MaGyunia"]
In retrospective, and if everything goes well from now on most of the times in terms of animation
Besides, if you're going to start off watching DBSuper's episodes believing that they'll have the same quality from ANY point of view when compared to the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, you're in for a major disappointment, and you should have known this since a long time ago.DB and DBZ are untouchable, that's 80's and 90's fantastic stuff.
You need to adapt to the times
and HOPE that the creators of DBSuper also KNOW how to make it something that can be called a worthy follow-up to DBZ.[/quote]
We'll be able to get a better idea about the series' future by the end of the arc so hopefully things go well moving foreword.
Why shouldn't we expect that ? it's 2015,the animation and fight choreography should be leaps ahead of what we had back in the 80's&90's.
Being adapted to the times is exactly why a lot of us are unhappy with this episode,we're used to things improving over the years,not getting worse.
We all hope that's what they'll do but if this is any indication to what we're going to get moving foreword then they should go back to making movies.[/quote]
I understand where you're coming from, and I did express my dismay and anger towards the fact that this is 2015, and that Dragonball should by now literally have AWESOME animation in every single second of every single episode at this point, but we need to be optimistic and believe this was just a temporary screw-up of an episode which won't last long in our memories. I don't give a shit if the show is intended to reach a new, younger audience. It's the OLD, ANCIENT hardcore DBZ fans they should care most about, the ones in their 30s like me, who watched it as it aired in the 80's and 90's.
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Don't get started on the whole Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta again, please. We've over-debated that stuff to death in the last few days and I won't repeat myself on why I would partially like to have it happen while at the same time finding the very concept outdated/obsolete (besides the fact it would look awful on Vegeta, regardless of the clothes he wears).
But there are reasons for the theory of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3, or at least becoming ABLE to go Super Saiya-jin 3 (in the movies' timeline, at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and in the series' timeline, either during or slightly after the Beerus arc). If you want the theory search through my posts both in this thread and in others, I won't repeat it, I'm honestly tired of the discussion.
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Lord Freeza wrote:
I cant believe how arrogant Goku is in this episode. He's had his odd moments of being a little cocky or overconfident over the years but he's behaving almost as bad as Vegeta back in the day.
I don't quite see the point in Goku ATTACKING Beerus in his Super Saiya-jin and Super Saiya-jin 2 stages, to be honest. In the movie he merely displays all stages but only charges at his maximum, Super Saiya-jin 3 stage (despite arrogantly telling Beerus he can go back to SSJ2, if he wanted/if it was too much for him).
The only reason I can think of is that Goku is just unaware of exactly just how Beerus is strong. He's told by Kaiou-sama that even the Kaioshin are terrified of him, but that doesn't tell him that there's such a huge gap between his degree of power and that of Beerus, who's in a different dimension altogether. Besides, he can't sense godly Ki, either, so he literally has close to no idea of how powerful Beerus is, he merely knows that he's stronger than the Kaioshin (who are far below himself as a Super Saiya-jin 3 too). As far as Goku knows before he fights Beerus, Beerus could be in the leagues of fat Majin Buu, Kid Buu or one of the variants of Super Buu, most of which he would be able to defeat, or even lower than that, which would allow him to beat him even in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage.
He should have showed off each stage, just like he did in BoG and to fat Majin Buu and Babidi, and he was quite indeed over-confident. Every time he's like that he ends up getting a major ass-kicking (Piccolo Daimao, Mr. Popo, Freeza, Beerus), but at least he has a high level of pride and desire to overcome his own limits and those of all others, and quickly regains his composure, just like Vegeta.
Beerus, on the other hand, was much more serious and less laid-back both throughout the fight AND in his ultimate way of KO'ing Goku. If one wasn't aware of his real character, if one hadn't seen BoG, we could postulate that he's closer to a villain than he actually is. In the movie's version of the fight, he's pretty laid-back and smiles all the time, and even after KO'ing Goku with a single masterfully-applied pressure-point attack delivered to the neck, he walks away smiling, while in the series' version, he's much more to-the-point and goes as far as coming off as a narcissistic maniac with what he says about himself seconds before knocking Goku out. It goes well along with his depictions in the other previous episodes of DBSuper, which present him in a much more mysterious/chilling/ominous light.
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UpFromTheSkies wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Literally, this looks like children's drawings, holy shit :x
Maybe it was bring your kid to work day :lol:
Not funny, dude. I did laugh, but it was more a tragic/comedic laugh than anything else. This is serious shit, this kind of animation better not happen anymore (or at least no more than once in every 6 ou 7 episodes, at most) throughout DBSuper. I mean, it's really, REALLY bad. We wouldn't be complaining this much if it weren't. It really is bad. And, again, this is coming from a guy who thinks himself as rational and optimistic and values content/character development over visuals.
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foxfang4 wrote:
I know that I'm the millionth person noticing the bad animation, but my question is...how is this possible?
This is the most iconic anime series in history. And today's episode had some of the worst animation in the franchise's history. In 2015. :shock:
How? How is it possible that no one at TOEI saw this before airing and said: "This is embarrassing."
Actually, to be more of a purist, there were animation teams working on episodes on an alternate basis throughout DB and DBZ who delivered EMBARASSINGLY bad animation, much worse than this. The point is, that's understandable, it was back in the 80's and 90's. This is 2015.
I guess that either they noticed it and didn't give a shit, hoping the fans wouldn't notice or mind too much about it - WRONG - or, more likely a scenario, they just don't have time at the pace things are proceeding forward to go back and undo the damage before it was too late.
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Doctor. wrote:
At least the episode had some nice shots here and then.
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Screenshots courtesy of Ajay.
Not the best thing in the world, but I was just happy to see they were on-model for once.
The thing is that it's not just about the instances of embarrassingly bad animation, it's also about the movement. At some point when Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 2 was trying to hit Beerus, as I was watching it, I couldn't believe my eyes, it felt like I was watching a cheap 2D game from the late 80's or early 90's. Fighting movement and choreographics are a fundamental part of DBZ's fantastic appeal. There's values, there's friendship, there's character development and background, there's storyline, there are good plots, there's violence and drama, but the visuals during the fights are EXTREMELY important, especially for male hardcore DBZ fans who have followed the franchise almost every single day since their childhood, like me.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
I think some people are being way too harsh on Super so far. It's too early to say that Super is better or worst then GT. We still haven't seen the original stories that Toriyama wrote for Super yet.
We're not judging - at least I'm not - the entire series, as we've only seen 5 episodes of it so far. We're judging what we saw, and what we saw was a HORRIBLY animated sequence which just happened to be used in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, in a fight between arguably the two most important characters in the series. Have you seen some of the stills taken from the episode? How can you NOT be AT LEAST be dissatisfied with it, not to mention the lack of proper/decent fighting movement/choreography?
I'm an optimistic guy and I quickly regain my rationalization capabilities shortly after a shock when I've had enough time to absorb stuff and to do so, but this was just inexcusable. I'm not talking about the content or the storyline at all, we're focusing entirely on the visuals and the animation point of view, and most of the episode was just a disaster to the point of reaching the borders of ridiculousness and tragic laughability. Were they hoping we wouldn't notice, or wouldn't mind?
GT being better or worse than DBSuper will be so for entirely different reasons, it won't have anything to do with animation. GT's animation of its episodes was done exactly the same way it was done for DB and DBZ, with numerous animation teams working on the episodes on an alternate basis. GT will still be worse than DBSuper simply because it's so bad for so many reasons that virtually anything done after over a decade of inactivity will be better from ANY perspective. And no, I won't list or detail the reasons GT was a complete disaster again, I think it's been over-debated throughout the years.
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Chiki wrote:
Come on guys, the incessant whining is getting boring. Yes the animation sucks, there's nothing you can do so deal with it.
It's been less than a day since we were exposed to it, by tomorrow or, at most, by the day after tomorrow the "whining", as you call it, will be mostly over and we'll move on to discuss the next episode and other issues, don't worry about that. Everything wrong to point out about the animation of this episode has already been pointed out, so the "debate" will reach the saturation point very soon.
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IGhostUlt wrote:
Why didn't they just reuse the animation from the bog movie?
Because it would be lazy. If that was the logic behind it they could very well just throw us the entire extended version of the movie untouched and sliced between episodes. If they're RETELLING the story of the movie with a few modifications and additions here and there, they ought to redo it entirely, from beginning to end (in fact, we even complained about them using the footage of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs Kid Buu in the first episode and the footage of Cell blowing up in Kaiou-sama's planet in the third one and most of us regarded it as lazy).
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
Image
The evolution has evolved LOL.
Ok, I laughed my ass off again. In a tragic/comedic way, of course. There's nothing to laugh about here, to be honest. This was a serious fuck-up. They better not repeat this and disgrace the much-anticipated upcoming fights and events with this absurd animation and (lack of) fighting choreography. I hope they realized what they've done, and the degree of seriousness of it. I'd be ok if they used this animation in one episode out of every 6 or 7, or something like that, though, just like we had to "put up" with horribly animated episodes throughout DB and DBZ in every 5 or 6 episodes.
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JacobYBM wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Ok, I laughed my ass off again. In a tragic/comedic way, of course. There's nothing to laugh about here, to be honest. This was a serious fuck-up. They better not repeat this and disgrace the much-anticipated upcoming fights and events with this absurd animation and (lack of) fighting choreography. I hope they realized what they've done, and the degree of seriousness of it. I'd be ok if they used this animation in one episode out of every 6 or 7, or something like that, though, just like we had to "put up" with horribly animated episodes throughout DB and DBZ in every 5 or 6 episodes.
Dragon Ball Super isn't being made for people with taste, it's being made for the lowest common denominator who don't think about why it is they like a work or what endears it to them.
Granted, but I don't really give a s*** who the target audience of the show is or to whom it is mostly directed towards. There is a huge volume of hardcore DBZ fans who, like me, are in their 30s and just happened to be fans of Dragonball since their childhood and spent the last two decades following the franchise and watching the episodes hundreds of times almost on a daily basis. Like I said, the complaining and "whining" over the animation/fighting choreography of episode 5 will be over by tomorrow or, at most, the day after tomorrow; we'll move on to discuss the next episode and other issues quite soon. We're just still in a bit of a shock and we're here to express our opinions on what can only be called an EMBARASSINGLY animated sequence which just happened to be used on the most anticipated event in DBSuper until now, in a fight between arguably the most important characters in the series.
I'm an optimistic guy and I regain my rationalizing capabilities shortly after a shock like this, and, again, I also happen to value the quality of the plot, storyline, character development and background a lot more than I do visuals, but the fighting aspect and dynamics were a fundamental part of what made the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ so utterly fantastic. This screw-up was beyond the animation aspect, it had to with the movement of Goku and Beerus while fighting and with the (lack of) choreography. It was just a disaster, it reminded me of of 2D games back from the late 80's or early 90's, or a cheap cartoon. That's just NOT acceptable for Dragonball, sorry. We have every right to be pissed off, at least for a while.
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
I never thought in a millions years I'd actually be laughing at Dragon Ball in a mocking way. Making Jokes at how horrendous it has gotten.
This will be constant throughout most of the fights, that's a 95% Guarantee. I knew this would happen, I knew this would be an issue for the fights.
And since I'm not even a fan of all this digital coloring and animation, it just makes it even worse for me. THIS IS NOT HOW DRAGON BALL SHOULD BE. IT'S GIVING THE SERIES A BAD NAME. I'D PREFER IT IF IT STAYED DEAD THAN OFFER UP THIS SHIT. THE VIDEO GAMES CUT-SCENES ARE GALLONS BETTER. TOEI GO HOME BECAUSE YOU'RE DRUNK.
Calm down, first of all.
I'm also finding myself laughing (although in a tragic way) in a mocking manner on Dragonball-related material for the first time in my life, but I just couldn't hold it in when I saw some of the stills posted throughout this thread.
You don't need to jump to the conclusion that Dragonball is over and should be left "dead" just because we were just exposed to a horribly animated episode. We shouldn't even judge the entirety of DBSuper just because of the animation/lack of fighting choreography in this episode. Like I said before, I'd be ok if this type of animation is used in DBSuper once in every 6 or 7 episodes, much in the same way we had to "put up" with horrible animation every now and then typical of each animation team throughout DB and DBZ in a number of episodes, once in every 5 or 6 episodes (I actually made an incomplete list in a post many pages before this one in this thread).
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HybridSaiyan wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
I never thought in a millions years I'd actually be laughing at Dragon Ball in a mocking way. Making Jokes at how horrendous it has gotten.
This will be constant throughout most of the fights, that's a 95% Guarantee. I knew this would happen, I knew this would be an issue for the fights.
And since I'm not even a fan of all this digital coloring and animation, it just makes it even worse for me. THIS IS NOT HOW DRAGON BALL SHOULD BE. IT'S GIVING THE SERIES A BAD NAME. I'D PREFER IT IF IT STAYED DEAD THAN OFFER UP THIS SHIT. THE VIDEO GAMES CUT-SCENES ARE GALLONS BETTER. TOEI GO HOME BECAUSE YOU'RE DRUNK.
They should just use the same animation/team as wrath of the Dragon. Movies 12,13 were flawless.
Agreed. Just look how fucking gorgeous these gifs are.
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The animation used in the 13 Movies was quite different and parallel when compared to the numerous specific animation teams used throughout the episodes of DB and DBZ, which worked on the episodes on an alternate basis. You can't really expect an entire series of episodes to be composed of visuals animated with the quality of Movie 12 or Movie 13 (or indeed, other movies as well). That was arguably the top of the top. There was a lot of emphasis put on the visual aspect in the 13 Movies made back in the 90's while DBZ was running (as opposed to the weak plots and character backgrounds, in most cases).
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jjgp1112 wrote:
VintageSaiyan wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
See? I told you. But no one listened to me. This is the kind of quality you should expect to be in the future's episodes, especially if this show goes for a long time. As proven once again, Toei doesn't give a single damn about Dragon Ball, just like it didn't about Sailor Moon. This the repeat of story once again. I was right after all.
Not only won't they not listen, but bring up excuses like comparing it to the worst of Z which was animated over 2 decades ago and CONTINUE to defend this garbage.
There's a difference between defensing it and calling out fans overreactionary tendencies that usually results in blindly propping up the past. Look at the side by side comparison on this page, for example. One is among the very best bits of animation in the original series placed against an in-between shot from one episode. I could just as easily take a shot from a Uchiyama or Ebisawa episode and say "Dragon Ball looks like shit whether it's 1996 or 2015." People with pre-ordained agendas are coming in and making very skewed findings to favor whatever their viewpoint is.
One episode is poorly animated and people are acting like this is the fall of Dragon Ball as we know it. Imagine if there was a Kanzenshuu for the original run. The reactions to every Last House and Studio Live episodes would be hilarious. Some people are forgetting that Dragon Ball has never had consistently good animation, so acting like this is unacceptable by Dragon Ball standards is rather questionable considering some of the crap the show has pumped out in the past:
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I'm neither disrespecting the original or defending the present. I'm saying it is what it is.
These are exactly the examples of what I listed and detailed a few pages ago on two of the animation teams behind the episodes of DB and DBZ. They're clearly and easily identifiable to anyone with two pairs of fully functional eyes. The last two shots of Vegeta are from episode 51, which is one example of the WORST animation team behind episodes throughout DB and DBZ (the one responsible for episodes 6, 27, 46, 66, 148, 175, 189, just to name a few). I actually made an incomplete list of the episodes animated by each animation team earlier in this thread.
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Sorry for (yet) another huge post, but this is just to illustrate what I've been talking about regarding the different animation teams clearly present in the episodes throughout DB and DBZ in a alternate/rotating basis:
Piccolo Jr. arc:
Episode 137 - Animation team A (simple, not particularly detailed, but good for fighting sequences (Piccolo vs #17, Cell vs Gohan)
Episode 138 - Animation team B (horribly drawn characters, far too many triangular-like lines)
Episode 139 - Animation team C (extremely detailed and well-drawn lines, fast movement)
Episode 140 - Animation team A
Episode 141 - Animation team D (decent drawing, excellent movement during fights, tendency for too many lines in the faces and other parts of the body)
Episode 143 - Animation team E (my personal favorite, fantastic fighting, strong and bulky lines, incredible style)
Episode 144 - Animation team A
Episode 145 - Animation team B
Episode 146 - Animation team C
Episode 147 - Animation team A
Episode 148 - Animation team D
Saiya-jin arc:
Episode 1 - Animation team A
Episode 2 - Animation team D
Episode 3 - Animation team F (decent drawing and lining, but lack of movement)
Episode 4 - Animation team E
Episode 5 - Animation team A
Episode 6 - Animation team B
Episode 7 - Animation team C
Episode 8 - Animation team A
Episode 11 - Animation team E
Episode 21 - Animation team C
Episode 22 - Animation team A
Episode 23 - Animation team D
Episode 24 - Animation team F
Episode 25 - Animation team E
Episode 26 - Animation team A
Episode 27 - Animation team B
Episode 28 - Animation team C
Episode 29 - Animation team A
Episode 30 - Animation team D
Episode 31 - Animation team E
Episode 32 - Animation team A
Episode 33 - Animation team B
Episode 34 - Animation team C
Episode 35 - Animation team A
Freeza arc:
Episode 45 - Animation team A
Episode 46 - Animation team B
Episode 47 - Animation team E
Episode 48 - Animation team C
Episode 49 - Animation team A
Episode 50 - Animation team F
Episode 51 - Animation team B
Episode 52 - Animation team F
Episode 53 - Animation team A
Episode 54 - Animation team E
Episode 55 - Animation team A
Episode 56 - Animation team B
Episode 57 - Animation team F
Episode 58 - Animation team E
Episode 61 - Animation team B
Episode 62 - Animation team A
Episode 63 - Animation team E
Episode 64 - Animation team C
Episode 65 - Animation team F
Episode 66 - Animation team B
Episode 67 - Animation team A
Episode 68 - Animation team E
Episode 69 - Animation team F
Episode 71 - Animation team B
Episode 72 - Animation team A
Episode 73 - Animation team F
Episode 74 - Animation team A
Episode 75 - Animation team B
Episode 76 - Animation team E
Episode 78 - Animation team F
Episode 79 - Animation team A
Episode 80 - Animation team B
Episode 81 - Animation team E
Episode 82 - Animation team F
Episode 83 - Animation team A
Episode 84 - Animation team B
Episode 85 - Animation team A
Episode 86 - Animation team F
Episode 87 - Animation team E
Episode 88 - Animation team A
Episode 91 - Animation team F
Episode 92 - Animation team A
Episode 93 - Animation team E
Episode 94 - Animation team B
Episode 96 - Animation team A
Episode 97 - Animation team F
Episode 98 - Animation team E
Episode 99 - Animation team B
Episode 100 - Animation team A
Episode 101 - Animation team F
Episode 102 - Animation team A
Episode 103 - Animation team E
Episode 104 - Animation team B
Episode 105 - Animation team A
Episode 106 - Animation team F
Jinzouningen arc:
Episode 118 - Animation team A
Episode 119 - Animation team E
Episode 120 - Animation team G (Strong and thick lines, well-drawn)
Episode 121 - Animation team B
Episode 122 - Animation team G
Episode 123 - Animation team A
Episode 125 - Animation team E
Episode 126 - Animation team B
Episode 127 - Animation team G
Episode 128 - Animation team A
Episode 130 - Animation team E
Episode 131 - Animation team B
Episode 132 - Animation team A
Episode 133 - Animation team G
Episode 134 - Animation team E
Episode 135 - Animation team B
Episode 136 - Animation team A
Episode 137 - Animation team G
Episode 139 - Animation team B
Cell arc:
Episode 140 - Animation team E
Episode 141 - Animation team A
Episode 142 - Animation team H (Fantastic movement, incredibly well-drawn, detailed and thick lines)
Episode 143 - Animation team G
Episode 144 - Animation team B
Episode 145 - Animation team A
Episode 146 - Animation team E
Episode 147 - Animation team G
Episode 148 - Animation team B
Episode 149 - Animation team A
Episode 150 - Animation team E
Episode 151 - Animation team A
Episode 152 - Animation team H
Episode 153 - Animation team B
Episode 155 - Animation team E
Episode 156 - Animation team A
Episode 157 - Animation team G
Episode 158 - Animation team B
Episode 159 - Animation team H
Episode 160 - Animation team E
Episode 161 - Animation team A
Episode 162 - Animation team G
Episode 163 - Animation team B
Episode 164 - Animation team H
Episode 165 - Animation team A
Episode 166 - Animation team E
Episode 167 - Animation team B
Episode 176 - Animation team B
Episode 178 - Animation team A
Episode 179 - Animation team I (good for fighting sequences and facial expressions, triangular lines, tendency to show a lot of sweat on characters' faces)
Episode 180 - Animation team E
Episode 181 - Animation team A
Episode 183 - Animation team B
Episode 184 - Animation team I
Episode 185 - Animation team G
Episode 186 - Animation team A
Episode 187 - Animation team E
Episode 189 - Animation team B
Episode 190 - Animation team A
Episode 191 - Animation team I
I could go on with the Majin Buu episodes, but I think this post has gone far enough and you'll get my point.
As you can see, they rotate, and they're used on an alternate/rotating basis, as in, one does a particular episode, another one does the following, etc., etc., until the rotation is done and they're back on the first one and start the rotation all over again.
The two shots taken of bad animation from DBZ posted a few pages before this one were of Animation team A and Animation team B (the worst one, by far).
Since the quality varies hugely between one team and the other, one episode can look incredibly different in terms of drawing when compared to the last one.
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[quote="kizuki"][spoiler][quote="MaGyunia"]Sorry for (yet) another huge post, but this is just to illustrate what I've been talking about regarding the different animation teams clearly present in the episodes throughout DB and DBZ in a alternate/rotating basis:
Piccolo Jr. arc:
Episode 137 - Animation team A (simple, not particularly detailed, but good for fighting sequences (Piccolo vs #17, Cell vs Gohan)
Episode 138 - Animation team B (horribly drawn characters, far too many triangular-like lines)
Episode 139 - Animation team C (extremely detailed and well-drawn lines, fast movement)
Episode 140 - Animation team A
Episode 141 - Animation team D (decent drawing, excellent movement during fights, tendency for too many lines in the faces and other parts of the body)
Episode 143 - Animation team E (my personal favorite, fantastic fighting, strong and bulky lines, incredible style)
Episode 144 - Animation team A
Episode 145 - Animation team B
Episode 146 - Animation team C
Episode 147 - Animation team A
Episode 148 - Animation team D
Saiya-jin arc:
Episode 1 - Animation team A
Episode 2 - Animation team D
Episode 3 - Animation team F (decent drawing and lining, but lack of movement)
Episode 4 - Animation team E
Episode 5 - Animation team A
Episode 6 - Animation team B
Episode 7 - Animation team C
Episode 8 - Animation team A
Episode 11 - Animation team E
Episode 21 - Animation team C
Episode 22 - Animation team A
Episode 23 - Animation team D
Episode 24 - Animation team F
Episode 25 - Animation team E
Episode 26 - Animation team A
Episode 27 - Animation team B
Episode 28 - Animation team C
Episode 29 - Animation team A
Episode 30 - Animation team D
Episode 31 - Animation team E
Episode 32 - Animation team A
Episode 33 - Animation team B
Episode 34 - Animation team C
Episode 35 - Animation team A
Freeza arc:
Episode 45 - Animation team A
Episode 46 - Animation team B
Episode 47 - Animation team E
Episode 48 - Animation team C
Episode 49 - Animation team A
Episode 50 - Animation team F
Episode 51 - Animation team B
Episode 52 - Animation team F
Episode 53 - Animation team A
Episode 54 - Animation team E
Episode 55 - Animation team A
Episode 56 - Animation team B
Episode 57 - Animation team F
Episode 58 - Animation team E
Episode 61 - Animation team B
Episode 62 - Animation team A
Episode 63 - Animation team E
Episode 64 - Animation team C
Episode 65 - Animation team F
Episode 66 - Animation team B
Episode 67 - Animation team A
Episode 68 - Animation team E
Episode 69 - Animation team F
Episode 71 - Animation team B
Episode 72 - Animation team A
Episode 73 - Animation team F
Episode 74 - Animation team A
Episode 75 - Animation team B
Episode 76 - Animation team E
Episode 78 - Animation team F
Episode 79 - Animation team A
Episode 80 - Animation team B
Episode 81 - Animation team E
Episode 82 - Animation team F
Episode 83 - Animation team A
Episode 84 - Animation team B
Episode 85 - Animation team A
Episode 86 - Animation team F
Episode 87 - Animation team E
Episode 88 - Animation team A
Episode 91 - Animation team F
Episode 92 - Animation team A
Episode 93 - Animation team E
Episode 94 - Animation team B
Episode 96 - Animation team A
Episode 97 - Animation team F
Episode 98 - Animation team E
Episode 99 - Animation team B
Episode 100 - Animation team A
Episode 101 - Animation team F
Episode 102 - Animation team A
Episode 103 - Animation team E
Episode 104 - Animation team B
Episode 105 - Animation team A
Episode 106 - Animation team F
Jinzouningen arc:
Episode 118 - Animation team A
Episode 119 - Animation team E
Episode 120 - Animation team G (Strong and thick lines, well-drawn)
Episode 121 - Animation team B
Episode 122 - Animation team G
Episode 123 - Animation team A
Episode 125 - Animation team E
Episode 126 - Animation team B
Episode 127 - Animation team G
Episode 128 - Animation team A
Episode 130 - Animation team E
Episode 131 - Animation team B
Episode 132 - Animation team A
Episode 133 - Animation team G
Episode 134 - Animation team E
Episode 135 - Animation team B
Episode 136 - Animation team A
Episode 137 - Animation team G
Episode 139 - Animation team B
Cell arc:
Episode 140 - Animation team E
Episode 141 - Animation team A
Episode 142 - Animation team H (Fantastic movement, incredibly well-drawn, detailed and thick lines)
Episode 143 - Animation team G
Episode 144 - Animation team B
Episode 145 - Animation team A
Episode 146 - Animation team E
Episode 147 - Animation team G
Episode 148 - Animation team B
Episode 149 - Animation team A
Episode 150 - Animation team E
Episode 151 - Animation team A
Episode 152 - Animation team H
Episode 153 - Animation team B
Episode 155 - Animation team E
Episode 156 - Animation team A
Episode 157 - Animation team G
Episode 158 - Animation team B
Episode 159 - Animation team H
Episode 160 - Animation team E
Episode 161 - Animation team A
Episode 162 - Animation team G
Episode 163 - Animation team B
Episode 164 - Animation team H
Episode 165 - Animation team A
Episode 166 - Animation team E
Episode 167 - Animation team B
Episode 176 - Animation team B
Episode 178 - Animation team A
Episode 179 - Animation team I (good for fighting sequences and facial expressions, triangular lines, tendency to show a lot of sweat on characters' faces)
Episode 180 - Animation team E
Episode 181 - Animation team A
Episode 183 - Animation team B
Episode 184 - Animation team I
Episode 185 - Animation team G
Episode 186 - Animation team A
Episode 187 - Animation team E
Episode 189 - Animation team B
Episode 190 - Animation team A
Episode 191 - Animation team I[/spoiler]
I could go on with the Majin Buu episodes, but I think this post has gone far enough and you'll get my point.
As you can see, they rotate, and they're used on an alternate/rotating basis, as in, one does a particular episode, another one does the following, etc., etc., until the rotation is done and they're back on the first one and start the rotation all over again.
The two shots taken of bad animation from DBZ posted a few pages before this one were of Animation team A and Animation team B (the worst one, by far).
Since the quality varies hugely between one team and the other, one episode can look incredibly different in terms of drawing when compared to the last one.[/quote]
I get that some animation teams are worse than others, and there's a rotation that happens in regards to that. I mean, it's like anything else. Some people do a job better than others, but when there's this big project that needs to be done -- there needs to be more than one team to complete it.
But, this last episode of Super and DEFINITELY the next one -- there is NO excuse for. I've never been the type to nitpick on the animations in Dragon Ball at all. I mean, I can remember watching the Cell Arc and SSJ2 Gohan having completely different hairstyles episode to episode based on the animation team (One team had his hair high up in the front, but it looked like the SSJ version in the back, while the other team had the more traditional SSJ2 hair we see everywhere with Gohan's hair upright and spikey) and I said, "Whatever." Even other instances I can't really think of right now, I've never even thought about complaining because it didn't take away from the experience of the episode(s). But this? This really looked like a bad DBZ flash game or something, lol.
Of course, I'm not going to go on a tirade on how I'm going to boycott Super, or Dragon Ball for that matter. I've been riding this train for over a decade, so F it, heheh'. But, it does take away from the experience. I found myself just wanted the episode to end rather than sit there and enjoy what I'm seeing.[/quote]
The instances of huge differences in drawing/hairstyle/faces/level of detail, etc. that you mention are just examples of what I tried to explain about one episode being massively different in terms of drawing/animation when compared to the last one, depicting the same character and/or scene. As a result of the rotation I've explained, that happens constantly throughout DB and DBZ. The variation is enormous, and so is the difference between the quality between some animation teams and others.
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The instances of huge differences in drawing/hairstyle/faces/level of detail, etc. that you mention are just examples of what I tried to explain about one episode being massively different in terms of drawing/animation when compared to the last one, depicting the same character and/or scene. As a result of the rotation I've explained, that happens constantly throughout DB and DBZ. The variation is enormous, and so is the difference between the quality between some animation teams and others.
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Envy wrote:
So are we ever going to see anything original, or is Super solely retelling BOG and RoF? Sorry, this has probably been discussed to death, but I haven't been around... I've just been very disappointed. It's hard to convince myself to even watch Super episodes when they're just retelling. =/
The BoG and Fukkatsu no F movies are going to be/are being retold in the form of episodes/arcs within DBSuper, pretty much depicting the same exact events in almost the same exact circumstances, with minor changes and additions here and there. After we're done with the retelling of BoG (call it the Beerus arc, if you will), which should last about 10-12 episodes, and the retelling of Fukkatsu no F (call it the Freeza arc), which should also last no longer than 10-12 episodes, then we'll get to a new arc - the 6th Universe arc - depicting entirely new events, with the introduction of new characters and villains, the exploration of the 6th Universe and the search for something called Super Dragon Balls; we should be starting on that arc by episode 30 or something approximate to that.
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kizuki wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
The instances of huge differences in drawing/hairstyle/faces/level of detail, etc. that you mention are just examples of what I tried to explain about one episode being massively different in terms of drawing/animation when compared to the last one, depicting the same character and/or scene. As a result of the rotation I've explained, that happens constantly throughout DB and DBZ. The variation is enormous, and so is the difference between the quality between some animation teams and others.
Enormous about covers the difference between this current animation team and, say .. everyone else, lol.
I don't know, like I said, I had to be the guy that sits here and harps on how bad something is but this really took me out of the experience. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we get the better animation teams working the pivotal episodes. The episode guide here has the names of people who worked / were lead on each episode. I'm wondering what is going to be the tipoff? I'm guessing "Art" but I could be wrong -- I'm not well versed as to how these things work. I'm also not sure if it is an animation team problem as much as it is an actual problem with the art style itself? Don't know .. just hope it gets adjusted for the episodes coming up.
The particular animation teams I've referred to/listed/detailed in the huge post don't apply neither to any of the 13 DBZ Movies nor to the Bardock Special and the Trunks Special, and they most certainly don't apply to anything made since the reemergence of Dragonball in 2008 with the Tarble Special. After all these years, they're entirely done with the way they used to work regarding the rotation of the animation teams for DB and DBZ episodes, and the animation used for the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, the opening and closing for Kai, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, although having some variation to it, is entirely different on a variety of ways (the way they draw the characters, the movement, the lighting, etc.). The last two movies had fantastic animation, especially during the peak of the major fights, but DBSuper's first four episodes were just ok on that department; for some reason, a large chunk of episode 5 was drawn and animated in an extremely poor way even for DBSuper's standards. But neither the awful animation of episode 5 of DBSuper or that of any other episodes of the series, or that of the recent movies/specials/Kai they threw our way since 2008 should be compared to the way I described it used to happen, with the rotation of animation teams, for the episodes of DB and DBZ.
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Noah wrote:
People should discuss more about this:
Image
Oh god this a total garbage. Invert colors? for realsies? Now I have no doubt that this episode was made in MS Paint
This actually remember me of that:
Spoiler:View
:lol:
If they want to show Goku with a shocked expression after he being knock out they could use something similar to that:
Image
This totally express the terror and the pain the caracter was suffering, I think TOEI forgot what is Dragon Ball
On another topic why the hell they change the original SFX sounds? Aura, eletrecticity, Kamehameha, energy attacks... All that feel so lame in Super. Are they trying to dismiss Dragon Ball franchise for good?
That shocked character is actually Gohan, after receiving a major punch by Cell in episode 182.
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TheDBZmaster100 wrote:
This was a terrible episode, absolutely awful.
I might as well drop this and wait for the ROF arc (which needs some major re-telling).
I pray that we get some good art/animations for the Universe 6 saga, if not then I will simply drop this nonsense.
Also regarding episode of Sabo, I would have preferred an actual new One Piece movie since we already just received a Sabo flashback... I doubt ODA has any involvement in this special anyways.
'Boycotting One Piece' what a ridiculous idea, don't embarrass yourselves... We should be addressing TOEI as a whole.
Holy shit. Really, people getting ready to entirely drop a new series of Dragonball after 18 years either aren't fans enough to be willing to put up with one (granted) awfully animated episode, or are reacting just way too hastily. The entire point of the detailed list I provided to explain the animation teams behind the episodes throughout DB and DBZ was to show that we've had EXTREMELY bad animation in the 80's and 90's and it did absolutely nothing to make Dragonball's popularity or success decline. Give it some time, for f***'s sake, we're 5 episodes into the new series, it barely just begun.
As a Dragonball fan since my childhood, now in my early 30's and having followed every single step of the franchise and watched every single episode hundreds of times over nearly two decades, I'm more than willing to give it not one second shot, but a third, a fourth, a fifth and an almost interminable number of additional shots until I decide to skip even one episode. But that may just be me.
As for the reasons behind retelling both BoG and Fukkatsu no F and turn them into arcs within DBSuper, which was announced right after the whole commotion surrounding Fukkatsu no F, and only 2 years and a few months, respectively, after each one was released, it's become pretty obvious from Toriyama's comments and views that he wanted the stories told exactly the way he wanted, without leaving anything out, and he couldn't do that neither in BoG nor in Fukkatsu no F due to the time restraints typical of a theatrical feature film, even a longer one. If you couple that with the decision to go further and have the recent movies/specials/Kai be some sort of follow-up to the REAL explosive news - an entirely full-fledged new Dragonball series -, it's no longer a mystery why they chose to have two of the main arcs within the series become retellings of events to which we've already been introduced in the movies, with only minor or slight differences and a few natural additions. Toriyama thought: "ok, we're gonna make a new series, I just have to take this opportunity to show fans the events surrounding Beerus, Whis, Super Saiya-jin God, resurrection of Freeza exactly the way I originally meant it".
On another note, enough about the animation already. We must remain optimistic and believe that this was just one screw-up of an episode which won't be repeated soon. It just happened to have been in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, the first big fight and featuring arguably the two most important characters in the series/franchise at this point. If we were willing to put up with an awfully animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's in DB and DBZ, we should be willing to put up with one awfully animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. I know it's 2015, I know it was absolutely horrendous to the point of being tragically laughable, I was utterly pissed off not only after I watched it but actually AS I watched it, but enough of this already. Really. Look forward to what's coming next and quit complaining. This gets us nowhere and generates an entire wave of negativity surrounding a series which debuted just over a month ago.
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kidhero1000 wrote:
This totally expresses the terror of 90s Toei animation quality control
Image
That's what I called "animation team A" in my list a few pages ago in this thread and it's from Episode 178. It's good for fight sequences, it looks fast and dynamic but lacks an awful lot of detail, and if you look closer like in this one shot there are actually major shortcomings in terms of drawing.
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JacobYBM wrote:
Folks, if you're not going to actually discuss animation and instead talk about cropped screen captures of in-between drawings there really isn't any point in going any further. Nobody is learning anything (partly because so many seemed hellbent on just not reading others' posts).
Let me repeat myself to second that: "enough about the animation already. We must remain optimistic and believe that this was just one screw-up of an episode which won't be repeated soon. It just happened to have been in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, the first big fight and featuring arguably the two most important characters in the series/franchise at this point. If we were willing to put up with an awfully animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's in DB and DBZ, we should be willing to put up with one awfully animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. I know it's 2015, I know it was absolutely horrendous to the point of being tragically laughable, I was utterly pissed off not only after I watched it but actually AS I watched it, but enough of this already. Really. Look forward to what's coming next and quit complaining. This gets us nowhere and generates an entire wave of negativity surrounding a series which debuted just over a month ago."
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Sora Saiyan wrote:
funrush wrote:
I guess it finally took it happening to Dragon Ball to get people fully aware of the modern "Toei Curse". Let's hope what happened here is they rushed scenes to get them to TV on time, and they'll fix them up later for the home release like they did Sailor Moon Crystal. This is actually a fairly common practice now, I remember it happening to Attack on Titan and Madoka Magica.
There's a chance Super episode 5's animation could be fixed for the home release? That would be perfect!
The damage has already been done, though. "What has been seen cannot be unseen". But seriously, most people are discussing this as this was the end of Dragonball. I guess there had to be already some build-up to these reactions, it can't just because the - granted - horrible animation of episode 5. But are people really thinking there's even a remote possibility they'll cancel Dragonball or that it will stop running in the short/medium-term because of this (and possibly a few other) horribly animated episodes? That's not all there is to it. There's storyline, there's character background. The visuals don't need to be incredibly fantastic all the time, but they certainly won't always be like they were most of the time in episode 5. If we were willing to put up with about one EXTREMELY badly animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's during DB and DBZ's run, then we must be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. No point in arguing and especially COMPLAINING about it anymore, it won't do any good and will only generate a wave of negativity over a series which has started running just a little over a month ago. The entire thing about official complaints and petitions is ridiculous, give it some time, calm down and look forward to what's coming. Have some belief in what they're doing. Is everybody's fandom really that weak that all it takes is one badly animated episode for people to start "threatening" to drop the series altogether? Utterly ridiculous.
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Blade wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
Folks, if you're not going to actually discuss animation and instead talk about cropped screen captures of in-between drawings there really isn't any point in going any further. Nobody is learning anything (partly because so many seemed hellbent on just not reading others' posts).
Let me repeat myself to second that: "enough about the animation already. We must remain optimistic and believe that this was just one screw-up of an episode which won't be repeated soon. It just happened to have been in the most anticipated event in DBSuper so far, the first big fight and featuring arguably the two most important characters in the series/franchise at this point. If we were willing to put up with an awfully animated episode in every 5 or 6 in the 80's and 90's in DB and DBZ, we should be willing to put up with one awfully animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. I know it's 2015, I know it was absolutely horrendous to the point of being tragically laughable, I was utterly pissed off not only after I watched it but actually AS I watched it, but enough of this already. Really. Look forward to what's coming next and quit complaining. This gets us nowhere and generates an entire wave of negativity surrounding a series which debuted just over a month ago."
I don't see how these sorts of debates get us any more nowhere than outpourings of baseless optimism. Are we debating towards a defined conclusion or a fixed end-point? No. As such, the result of this, as is the case with any debate, is a subjective, impermanent concept. Sure, I get that pages of negativity are not fun to read, but they're no less valid than pages of whitewashed positivity.
I think fans have a right to be angry. This episode had few saving graces, as a narrative spectacle it sucked, and as a work of art it blowed.
Don't get me wrong, I was disappointed to the point of being disgusted at it, but will it really do anything for each one of us individually or collectively to center our discussions ONLY on how horrible the animation was for most part of the episode? Of course there's no definite conclusion to be reached at this point. That's why I say "wait and see", we have no idea what the animation will look like in the following episodes or at some future point in DBSuper, for all we know they could throw an entire new animation team working on the episodes starting on a particular episode or at the beginning of a particular arc. We don't know, we just don't know, we can only speculate, and we can only wait. I won't discuss how horrible the animation was again until I get to see the next episode, I'm tired of the whole thing.
And yes, fans have a right to be angry, and being a hardcore Dragonball fan, I'm also angry, but I'm not reacting like it's the end of the world or like they're disrespecting Dragonball's fantastic history or threatening that I'll just drop the show and skip the episodes altogether.
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Ok, major complaints about DBSuper:
- The fact that it dedicates two entire arcs to the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F just 2 years and a few months, respectively, after they came out, with next-to-no change in the plot and character backgrounds and only a few minor random additions here and there
- The whole somewhat disappointing animation/drawing in the episodes so far (before episode 5)
- The horrendous animation, art and fighting choreography in episode 5
Like in any other situation in life, we need to break this down and think carefully about each item and develop personal/individual or collective solutions for each one of them separately other than freaking out about the whole thing.
We're well over the first one, as we came to understand why that happened and why they chose to go down that road. We've more than completed the process of accepting that we're only going to get entirely new stuff in the 6th Universe arc.
The animation overall, except that of episode 5, isn't that much weaker than the stuff they've been throwing our way recently (2008 special, Episode of Bardock, opening and closing for Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
We most likely won't get another episode THIS horrendously drawn as we did in most of episode 5, at least in the near future. This was a temporary screw-up, and the animation team responsible for this episode won't be doing any more for quite a while, just the way the rotation between animation teams worked in DB and DBZ.
Again, if we were willing to put up with one AWFULLY animated episode in DB an DBZ in the 80's and 90's in every 5 or 6, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. That's what a series of episodes is, especially when there are several entirely different animation teams behind each episode on an alternating/rotating basis. This is not a theatrical feature like BoG or Fukkatsu no F, this is a series, with both its benefits (more content, more time to develop the plot and the characters) and its disadvantages (weaker animation quality) Besides, Dragonball isn't only visuals, it's storyline, plot, character development and background. Granted, the visual aspect, especially during the fights, was and IS a major fundamental factor in what made Dragonball fantastic, along with the other stuff I mentioned, especially for male hardcore DBZ fans who are now in their early 30's like me and grew up watching every episode of the series every day in their childhood and adolescence.
Why not hold your anger and rage a little bit until we get to see the next episode(s)? What exactly are the other complaints about DBSuper that I haven't listed that made me read some of you saying that it's a "travesty"? Please develop on this. Setting aside the animation of episode 5 for a second, what exactly is so wrong about DBSuper so far? Or is it really just the animation of episode 5? Are you that weak a fan that all it takes for you to moan constantly about the creators of the show/franchise and threaten to drop it or take action against Toei is to have one badly animated episode? If there were forums like these back in the 80's and 90's, Dragonball would probably have never gotten even halfway compared to what it did, judging by a large chunk of fan reactions to poorly animated/coreographed sequences/episodes.
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Ok, major complaints about DBSuper:
- The fact that it dedicates two entire arcs to the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F just 2 years and a few months, respectively, after they came out, with next-to-no change in the plot and character backgrounds and only a few minor random additions here and there
- The whole somewhat disappointing animation/drawing in the episodes so far (before episode 5)
- The horrendous animation, art and fighting choreography in episode 5
Like in any other situation in life, we need to break this down and think carefully about each item and develop personal/individual or collective solutions for each one of them separately other than freaking out about the whole thing.
We're well over the first one, as we came to understand why that happened and why they chose to go down that road. We've more than completed the process of accepting that we're only going to get entirely new stuff in the 6th Universe arc.
The animation overall, except that of episode 5, isn't that much weaker than the stuff they've been throwing our way recently (2008 special, Episode of Bardock, opening and closing for Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F)
We most likely won't get another episode THIS horrendously drawn as we did in most of episode 5, at least in the near future. This was a temporary screw-up, and the animation team responsible for this episode won't be doing any more for quite a while, just the way the rotation between animation teams worked in DB and DBZ.
Again, if we were willing to put up with one AWFULLY animated episode in DB an DBZ in the 80's and 90's in every 5 or 6, we should be willing to "put up" with one badly animated episode in every 6 or 7 in DBSuper. That's what a series of episodes is, especially when there are several entirely different animation teams behind each episode on an alternating/rotating basis. This is not a theatrical feature like BoG or Fukkatsu no F, this is a series, with both its benefits (more content, more time to develop the plot and the characters) and its disadvantages (weaker animation quality) Besides, Dragonball isn't only visuals, it's storyline, plot, character development and background. Granted, the visual aspect, especially during the fights, was and IS a major fundamental factor in what made Dragonball fantastic, along with the other stuff I mentioned, especially for male hardcore DBZ fans who are now in their early 30's like me and grew up watching every episode of the series every day in their childhood and adolescence.
Why not hold your anger and rage a little bit until we get to see the next episode(s)? What exactly are the other complaints about DBSuper that I haven't listed that made me read some of you saying that it's a "travesty"? Please develop on this. Setting aside the animation of episode 5 for a second, what exactly is so wrong about DBSuper so far? Or is it really just the animation of episode 5? Are you that weak a fan that all it takes for you to moan constantly about the creators of the show/franchise and threaten to drop it or take action against Toei is to have one badly animated episode? If there were forums like these back in the 80's and 90's, Dragonball would probably have never gotten even halfway compared to what it did, judging by a large chunk of fan reactions to poorly animated/coreographed sequences/episodes.
irreality wrote:
Blade wrote:
This episode had few saving graces, as a narrative spectacle it sucked, and as a work of art it blowed.
I wish people were discussing the narrative of the episode at all -- good or bad, but there has been precious little of that in 20+ pages. I don't think there was anything wrong with the narrative, quite frankly -- it was what was expected from a more leisurely retelling of the fight and worked well.
We got nice moments with Gregory, Kaiou and Bubbles, Whis' background interactions were nice with his lunch, I thought the buildup of the fight was well paced -- seeing a little of each level, and it was an interesting take in general for what they are trying to do with Goku's character of late. I preferred the Kamehameha through the planet over the punch -- it makes me feel Goku really was fighting all out against Beerus. I thought the way Beerus knocked out Goku this time was more dramatic than in BoG where he just seems polite and non-threatening. And then the ending with Vegeta and Bulma brought us back to that part of the plot.
The way Beerus addresses Goku before he KO's him sent chills throughout my spine. He came across as a total villain by dropping that line before rendering him unconscious. That goes along just fine with the way he's been portrayed in the previous episodes, when compared to his laid-backness and sometimes even humorous character in BoG. He's much more serious, to-the-point and dramatic in the series, and the best example was precisely the whole way he KO's Goku.
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Goku has no idea how strong Beerus is. He can't sense godly Ki, all he knows is that he's the "Hakaishin" and that he's strong enough to make the Kaioshin terrified, but early in the Majin Buu arc he, along with Vegeta, notice that they've become powerful enough to make the Kaioshin terrified themselves, so that's no good basis to judge Beerus' exact level of power on. He most likely assumes he's stronger than him, even if only in his Super Saiya-jin 3 form, but gets an opponent who is more than he - or ANYONE, except Whis - can chew.
This isn't the first instance of Goku being over-confident about his power - for good reasons, he's become one of the strongest fighters the Universe has ever seen, which includes Gods -, which is met by a major ass-kicking (Piccolo Daimao, Mr. Popo, Freeza, Beerus). The good thing, and one valuable lesson Dragonball has always taught us, is that he learns from it and instead of moaning or becoming depressive about it he IMMEDIATELY gets to training to overcome both his previous limits and those of his opponents, eventually surpassing himself and others on a next-to-infinite number of occasions. The same goes for Vegeta, who despite overcoming his limits and surpassing a number of warriors who were stronger than him (Dodoria, Zarbon, Recoome, Ginyu, Freeza, #18, Cell) also has his own fair share of major ass-kickings soon after he proclaims himself - again - as the strongest in the Universe and thinks he's finally overcome Kakarotto (Goku, Zarbon, Freeza, Recoome, #18, Cell).
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irreality wrote:
I mean -- I'm not sure there is anything particularly impressive about punching a whole through Kaiou's planet -- that thing is tiny. They destroy cliffsides that are bigger than that routinely.
But having Goku fight and not discharge a single energy attack? I just rewatched the scene from battle of Gods, and it almost makes it seem like Goku is just missing and is caught off guard by Beerus' KO (the way Goku was startled by Majin Vegeta just a few months ago) because he can't sense God Ki vs. Beerus being unusually fast or strong.
In this fight you see how Beerus compares to the different energy levels: in SSJ, Beerus is dodging so easily it is like goku isn't even fighting. In SSJ2, he is dodging a bit less, but still out of his league. At SSJ3, things aren't even strengthwise at all, but it starts to make sense where Goku falls in relation to Beerus.
I don't think Goku is being unnecessarily cocky -- he was polite at the beginning of the fight and is mostly doing it for fun. He doesn't want to end it too suddenly. Considering Kaioshin, the previous God they encountered, radically underestimated the power of our heroes, I can see Goku being curious and not wanting to reveal all his tricks all at once.
Goku has no idea how strong Beerus is. He can't sense godly Ki, all he knows is that he's the "Hakaishin" and that he's strong enough to make the Kaioshin terrified, but early in the Majin Buu arc he, along with Vegeta, notice that they've become powerful enough to make the Kaioshin terrified themselves, so that's no good basis to judge Beerus' exact level of power on. He most likely assumes he's stronger than him, even if only in his Super Saiya-jin 3 form, but gets an opponent who is more than he - or ANYONE, except Whis - can chew.
This isn't the first instance of Goku being over-confident about his power - for good reasons, he's become one of the strongest fighters the Universe has ever seen, which includes Gods -, which is met by a major ass-kicking (Piccolo Daimao, Mr. Popo, Freeza, Beerus). The good thing, and one valuable lesson Dragonball has always taught us, is that he learns from it and instead of moaning or becoming depressive about it he IMMEDIATELY gets to training to overcome both his previous limits and those of his opponents, eventually surpassing himself and others on a next-to-infinite number of occasions. The same goes for Vegeta, who despite overcoming his limits and surpassing a number of warriors who were stronger than him (Dodoria, Zarbon, Recoome, Ginyu, Freeza, #18, Cell) also has his own fair share of major ass-kickings soon after he proclaims himself - again - as the strongest in the Universe and thinks he's finally overcome Kakarotto (Goku, Zarbon, Freeza, Recoome, #18, Cell).
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batistabus wrote:
This episode did not need to exist. Honestly, I would've been MUCH happier if they literally inserted the fight scene from Battle of Gods completely unchanged, and then just reanimated the scenes with Vegeta on the boat instead of at the house. Aside from the animation being embarrassingly bad, the writing and pacing was terrible as well.
That aside, the new Kaio voice actor speaks sooooo slowly and it's really bothersome to me.
If they did what you suggest, then instead of the awful animation everyone would be complaining about their UNBELIEVABLE level of laziness. Besides, it wouldn't even be practical, as the fight at Kaiou-sama's planet in BoG lasted literally one minute since the moment Goku first charged until he got KO'd. The whole episode was meant to be devoted to the acquiantance + fight, so even if they just threw the footage from the fight sequence from BoG in, they would only be filling one single minute of the episode.
Throwing in existing footage from decades ago is something that has already happened in DBSuper in three occasions and it was met with disdain by most fans (in the first episode, they threw in original DBZ footage of Super Saiya-jin 3 vs Kid Buu, in the second, original DBZ footage of Vegeta in the gravity room with Trunks, and in episode three, Cell's explosion at Kaiou-sama's planet). They were short-timed insertions, but it was enough for fans to call them "lazy", so imagine the reactions if they just picked up the fight sequence from BoG and pasted it untouched into the episode.
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Noah wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
That shocked character is actually Gohan, after receiving a major punch by Cell in episode 182.
I already knew that when I made my post, pal :lol:
I assumed so, but just in case... :lol:
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Blade wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I was disappointed to the point of being disgusted at it, but will it really do anything for each one of us individually or collectively to center our discussions ONLY on how horrible the animation was for most part of the episode? Of course there's no definite conclusion to be reached at this point. That's why I say "wait and see", we have no idea what the animation will look like in the following episodes or at some future point in DBSuper, for all we know they could throw an entire new animation team working on the episodes starting on a particular episode or at the beginning of a particular arc. We don't know, we just don't know, we can only speculate, and we can only wait. I won't discuss how horrible the animation was again until I get to see the next episode, I'm tired of the whole thing.
And yes, fans have a right to be angry, and being a hardcore Dragonball fan, I'm also angry, but I'm not reacting like it's the end of the world or like they're disrespecting Dragonball's fantastic history or threatening that I'll just drop the show and skip the episodes altogether.
I honestly don't know what you're saying. Do you realise that this is a discreet thread in a wider forum created for the sole purpose of talking about Episode 5 of Dragonball Super? We're talking about something in the past tense, something that aired two days ago, something that is tangible and can be seen and analysed - so what are you actually saying? That we don't know enough about the nature of future content to adequately discuss the quality of something that we can see with our eyes? There's no crystal gazing required for the task.
I'm all for looking at the bigger picture and viewing things in context, and I also like to take a longitudinal approach in how judge Super overall, but as far as I'm concerned, this is a thread that is predominantly for the purpose of discussing a single episode in a vacuum - and it wasn't very good.
Dude, I was just making a simple and inoffensive general observation that, in my own personal opinion - and everyone is entitled to have one and express it, regardless of how wrong or right it is -, you and a few others are concentrating way too much on the - granted, again - extremely awful animation/fighting choreography we were presented to in episode 5. Although there was little else to grab onto, as you rightly pointed out, since the episode was deliberately meant to focus almost in its entirety to the acquaintance + fight between Goku and Beerus, it just gets to a point where it becomes annoying and inconsequential to complain over and over about the same subject, ESPECIALLY when there's nothing we can do about it and when this sort of screw-up HAS happened in the past NUMEROUS times and definitely and certainly won't happen in the near future in DBSuper. We can't judge the entire series based on the most part of episode 5, and some people are doing it. Do you think it's healthy to dedicate 30 pages of this thread to basically complain about how bad the animation was? If that's your opinion - and I happen to share it - then express it, once, twice, three times, expand on it, point out the reasons you believe are behind it and focus on and discuss what needs to be done to overcome this disaster of an episode, but do it while looking at the larger picture. I've had my own personal share of anger and negativity in my feedback on the episode's tragically laughable animation quality, but you don't see me repeating my complaints over and over in an overly pessimistic/dramatic way in every single post I make for pages on end. You happen to be quite angry about the animation quality of the episode, and so was I. Where the hell is the difference between us? I think you're addressing me in an overly aggressive manner for no good reason, and I don't think I've done or written ANYTHING that makes me deserve that sort of response and feedback from you. I've been actually trying for more than one day to move on other aspects of the episode individually and also when put into the context of the series and, in fact, the entire franchise, which doesn't go against the rules (and by this I mean that although this thread is dedicated to the discussion and feedback on episode 5 of DBSuper, we're entitled to write on more general aspects of Dragonball that go BEYOND the episode itself, it's been done before in the threads dedicated to each of the previous episodes and nobody ever complained about it, but even so, I've been keeping my posts in this thread mostly focused on whatever we can still analyze other than the animation, as you can see if you look through my most recent posts in this thread).
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So, any idea on how likely it is that Toei is really "hunting down" those who provide live streams? I honestly and personally would be beyond frustrated and pissed off at the scenario of not being able to watch every single episode as it airs in Japan. It's become some sort of a rather pleasant routine. I can't wait for official releases, I need to watch it now. I've dealt with other areas which have nothing to do with Dragonball in which I found the companies tracking down people, threatening legal action, taking down websites, appointing lawyers to write scary letters or make phone calls, etc., in order to contain leaks and stuff, and it has affected me personally in the past. On this note, a few live streaming websites that provided the possibility of watching Fuji TV online have become offline in the last few days.
I'm sure they can't deal with the whole thing, especially if it's live streaming and not an actual "leak" of a particular file or set of files, which just goes beyond anybody's control after a while. This is the internet, there's always going to be a way to do and watch basically anything if we dig deep and well enough.
Someone with real information on this, if anybody, please reply.
Regarding the article on Forbes, I found "The other and more ugly aspect to all this is that Japanese anime production is equatable to slave labor, so these kinds of lapses in quality are more down to an abused workforce than any kind of simple production oversight" funny and "Considering that Super started out really well and has a long run ahead of it" a cheerful way to look at it, contrasting with the over-dramatic way some Japanese and Western fans were reacting to it.
I think it's safe, and not overly optimsitic, to assume that we won't be seeing this sort of horrendous animation, art and fighting choreography any time soon - for many reasons, especially the fact that Toei is fully aware of the proportions this decadent episode took - and that the next episode(s) will be on the same level of quality in all aspects (storyline, animation, character background, comic relief) as the first four ones, so we'll soon, in a matter of days, regain our collective composure.
It would be rather nice to end the whole debate over the animation/art quality of most of the fight in episode 5 with the conclusion that if anyone wants to get the full experience of the battle and the hopelessness of Goku against Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet, then just stick to BoG's version of it, even if it's just - literally - one minute long and although you'll be missing the much more serious and "evil" atmosphere Beerus approaches Goku in in DBSuper's version of it when compared to his laid-backness in the movie.
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theoriginalbilis wrote:
We'll get through this, people.
If the prequels didn't kill the Star Wars franchise...
If Amazing Spider-Man 1 & 2 didn't kill the Spider-Man franchise...
If Batman and Robin didn't kill the Batman franchise...
If bad dubs, GT, and sub-par video games, didn't kill the Dragon Ball franchise... a couple of poorly animated episodes won't either.
Of course they won't. I seriously don't know where this is "this is the end of Dragonball" stuff is coming from.
Let's look at the facts: for some reason, it took them 11 years (from the very end of GT in 1997 until the 2008 Tarble Special) for them to provide us with something new on Dragonball. We've welcomed everything they threw our way since then (Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Fukkatsu no F) with open arms, the entire Dragonball fandom accepted Beerus as one of the best characters in the franchise ever. No major complaints about anything in DBSuper until this last episode, whose mistakes won't be repeated.
Do you really think that after all this all it will take is ONE badly animated episode?
Besides, even if they screwed up big time, they could change direction and make a movie along the lines of BoG to kick ass again, to regain their composure and the fans' respect, and the damage would be undone in a matter of months.
There are countless instances throughout Hollywood, between movies and actors' careers, of sequences of laughably bad decisions after which they kicked ass again with one or two acclaimed movies and managed to come back on top.
Dragonball is immortal, or, in this case, "unkillable". Its potential is virtually limitless.
TripleRach wrote:
It's possible they've gone after some popular sites that have come onto their radar (probably via the Japanese fandom), but I doubt they have a big team of piracy hunters along the same lines as the NFL or UFC. I would imagine their legal department is more concerned with DVD/BD uploads or camrips of movies than live streams of free TV.
I shouldn't really be talking about this. But the biggest issue with streams is not even their legality. You're relying on some guy to provide a free service at his (or her) whim. His equipment could break, the viewers could frustrate him, or he could simply lose interest. As opposed to legal services like Crunchyroll, where people are employed to provide the episodes and have contracts and deadlines to fulfill, and access to official materials and professional equipment. Illegal streams are just inherently unreliable. Popular TV streamers constantly come and go.
Thank you for the time to share your view on my concerns.
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If the next episode returns to the level of quality animation-wise we've seen in the first four, the debate and rage over episode 5 will cease to even exist and we'll return to discussions over other issues and the episode's events themselves. If the animation in episode 6 turns out to be partially or totally as awful as the most part of episode 5, we'll just get another wave of anger over it, but everything will return to normal after they get their shit together. This was a totally forgettable temporary screw-up.
Can't hope to return to debate plot, storyline, comic instances, the little details, etc. We were kind of "forced" to skip that due to the animation/art/fighting choreography in episode 5, but hopefully everything will return to normal a few days from now.
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I think we're lucky that after so many years of inactivity, and GT in between, they put each character exactly where they belonged in terms of power in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper (as in, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, Gotenks, fat Majin Buu being somewhere between SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku, etc.). Although we've also debated a few weeks ago the issues over their depiction of Gohan and his apparent regression to a nerdy little weakling unwilling to fight - now even when necessary - when he's supposed to be one of the strongest fighters that ever existed, I think they're well aware of just where he fits in the ranking in terms of power level, but for totally different reasons won't give him the fighting time his level of power "deserves". Vegeta is much more of a protagonist in DBSuper than Gohan is (by far), and they are and will be matching his level of power to his degree or protagonism (in fact, in Fukkatsu no F this has already happened, Vegeta is the one achieving the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God stages, and the only one among the good guys to keep up with Goku), which means Vegeta will soon overcome Gohan in DBSuper, and by overcoming Gohan he'll automatically be overcoming fat Majin Buu, Gotenks, most of the Super Buu variations and Kid Buu.
Regarding the fighting time everyone will get, and taking into account the obvious fact that they'll stretch everyone's attempts at Beerus even if for a few seconds, depending on the characters, I assume it will take more than one kick to the stomach to KO Gohan, and that Vegeta will not only have two goes at Beerus like he did in BoG, it will also take more to bring him down and he'll most likely have almost half an episode worth of fighting time. Vegeta will by far be the one on Earth besides Goku to receive more fighting time, for the reasons explained in the first paragraph. And I also believe he'll be much more serious in his approach to Beerus than he was in BoG before his attempts to calm him down failed, although he'll be just as cautious and aware of the danger Beerus poses as he was in the movie.
I hope the animation doesn't screw up the fantastic experience we should get during the entire account of Beerus meeting everyone on Earth, losing his shit and then proceeding to KO every single one who has a go at him. I'm at this point looking forward to these events even more than I was to Goku's acquaintance + fight with Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet prior to the episode's release.
Regarding my two favorite characters, despite Vegeta being a major protagonist throughout DBZ, and his massive power at any point throughout the series, he was surpassed in the Jinzouningen arc by Mirai no Trunks, Piccolo, #17, #18 and #16, and in the Cell arc by Goku, Gohan, Mirai no Trunks and Cell himself; in the Majin Buu arc, he was surpassed yet again by Gohan, Goku, Gotenks, Vegitto, fat Majin Buu, all variations of Super Buu and Kid Buu. After (or maybe even during) the Beerus arc in DBSuper, he'll skip ALL of these gaps and overcome pretty much every single fighter I just mentioned except Goku. Finally, this is the true place Vegeta deserves to be in, as a pure Saiya-jin and as one of the main protagonists: above Gohan, above Gotenks, on par with Goku. It took about two decades to get it done, but there it is.
As for Piccolo, despite not having become obsolete as a fighter, he did manage to keep up with most of the fighter throughout the Jinzouningen arc, and indeed the Cell arc, but he reached his limits there and was totally unable to keep up with the major fighters throughout the Majin Buu arc (in fact, he doesn't even fight during the entire thing). His level of power "stopped" at the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, he's slightly above #18, so if even the fighters who managed to keep up with Majin Buu don't stand a chance against Beerus, Piccolo (and #18) most certainly don't either.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
Retell the movies was a bad idea since day one. They should just have followed Buu Kai ending and make Super take place after EOZ.
Even though Super is fleshing out things better, people want to see original content. Not a retelling from something they just saw some time ago.
Everything would work better:
- Fans would finally had a sequel to DBZ from Toriyama.
- More about the new generation. Especially Pan and Uub Toriyama versions.
- Not stuck in a 10 year gap and maybe we could get an unpredictable ending, because we already know the ending for Super thanks to EOZ...
Everyone would win.
Beerus and Whis could still appear, its not like they would be left out.
Let's just say after Goku and Vegeta learnt to use their God Ki, they returned to their peaceful lives on Earth. The plot would still be about the 12 universes.
The thing is they wanted the (re)introduction of Dragonball to basically pick up at the timing/circumstances in which the general fandom remembers the characters (Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 3, Ultimate Gohan, Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2, Goten and Trunks as kids, etc.). We're basically "stuck" in the 10 year gap generated by the timeskip between episodes 288 and 289 in DBZ.
The ORIGINAL mistake, in my view, was the hasty ending given to DBZ, with those last 3 episodes happening after 10 years. That basically presented them with two alternatives on when exactly to set a new series: either in the 10 year gap, which has the disadvantage of having whatever happens during DBSuper inevitably and eventually lead up to the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, or have it placed AFTER the very last episode of DBZ, with everyone grown up, Pan and Bra in existence, and a long, long time having passed since the defeat of Kid Buu, which is still deeply present in everyone's minds when Toriyama came up with the concept of Uub, who's inherently connected to him. One solution for this would be so simply retcon the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make them "inexistent", and basically have DBSuper be placed at whatever timing they choose to (2 years later, 5 years, 10, whatever).
I believe that the reason behind the decision to retell BoG and Fukkatsu no F just 2 years and a few months after they came out, respectively, in the form of arcs within DBSuper in pretty much the exact same circumstances except for a few minor changes and additions was the fact that Toriyama simply wanted to present fans with his untouched, original version of the events depicted in the movies, which he couldn't do due to the time restraints typical of theatrical features, even longer ones. He just had to (re)introduce Beerus, Whis, the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Golden Freeza. They could have chosen to go another route, have the series start after the movies, rendering them direct canon continuations of the series' timeline, have it take place after the introduction of Uub, have it REPLACE the last 3 episodes of DBZ, among other options, but this is what they've chosen and I don't think we can call it a mistake. The REAL mistake, in my view, was to end DBZ as quickly as possible and have those last 3 episodes placed 10 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. That generated a whole can of worms with which we're still dealing with almost 20 years later.
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None of the villains particularly appeal to me (virtually nothing appeals to me in GT, but oh well), but if I had to pick one I'd go with Super 17, simply because it would be nice to have #17 be "used" again; he was first introduced as a major villain along with #18, and after the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs she stuck with the gang throughout the Majin Buu arc and the events that took place after that. I'd like to see the same done with #17. The problem would be to generate a way in which ANOTHER #17 would be created, or how Super 17 would be created at all in some other way.
From the good guys, Gogeta. Not in his Super Saiya-jin 4 form, obviously, as the very concept of Super Saiya-jin 4 generates all sorts of plot-holes and inconsistencies with the Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages - the only thing I like about SSJ4 is how it looks, apart from it it's an entire can of worms from all possible angles. Achieving Gogeta would bring back the fusion technique to DBSuper, although I prefer his counterpart Vegitto, with the Potara method of fusion.
These are just exercises of wishful thinking, none of this has any chance of becoming true in DBSuper, of course, but it's a nice and interesting thing to debate.
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FortuneSSJ wrote:
DragonHermit wrote:
Either last 3 episodes of Z are cannon or Super is cannon. You can't have both as they're contradicting. Last episodes of Z are officially non cannon at this point.
Not really. The manga is always canon. What isn't in the manga is filler. If the creator writes a new story it may be considered canon or both canon/filler.
Officialy is not the right word. People can choose if they want to accept the new stuff or not. I welcome new stuff but I don't intend to change anything.
There's no point after all these years.
And cannon is a weapon.
That's one way to look at it, but there are others. One could argue that canon is whatever doesn't generate plot-holes/inconsistencies/timeline impossibilities (an example would be the Garlic Jr. arc, or Movie 9). I go for this one, otherwise about half of DB and DBZ is non-canon, given how much filler material there is there (as in, scenes which aren't based on the original manga).
The last 3 episodes of DBZ could still remain canon, in that sense, so long as Pan isn't conceived just a few months after the defeat of Kid Buu in DBSuper. Apart from that, there's really nothing that makes it absolutely impossible to have happened, at least so far (even Beerus' and Whis' appearance, the resurrection of Freeza, Goku and Vegeta achieving both Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin and potentially the events of the 6th Universe arc don't contradict the ending of DBZ). Doesn't mean I WANT that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub to remain canon. I don't, but theoretically, at this point, it still is.
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Sayo-chan wrote:
iop890 wrote:
Also this. Cell was a great character, and he is the only major villain that was just ignored after his death.
Vegeta's a Z-fighter now and consistently made the second strongest character.
Freeza was resurrected and is getting an entire new arc in Super in addition to his movie.
Buu not only split into a good form, but his evil part was reincarnated, and EoZ showed Goku passing the torch to him(we'll see how that ends in Super, that damn torch never stays passed).
Cell needs some love. Hell, I'd even take the current time-line's Cell that was allegedly destroyed in Gero's lab. Imagine if the supercomputer continued gathering DNA throughout the rest of the series and part of Super.
Cell with the cells of Boo, Beerus and Whis and maybe even Dabra? What a fucking monster he'd be. This needs to happen.
Speaking of villains and Cell: In terms of likeability, and setting the villains from the 13 DBZ Movies aside, as they're non-canon, Cell has always had a particular appeal to me, especially in Perfect form. From the 3 major villains presented in the 3 main arcs throughout DBZ (if we included the real evil, maniacal, genocidal, psychotic villains from DB, we'd have only Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo himself), Cell is indeed the only one who hasn't been given any time after he was killed. We can understand the reason to bring Freeza back, he's so charismatic a villain that he's constantly referenced throughout the later arcs in DBZ and had a large number of cameos in Movies and even the Majin Buu arc in DBZ, along with an entire movie entirely dedicated to his revival (Fukkatsu no F), and as for Majin Buu, we have his fat version among the team AFTER Kid Buu was killed off, so he's still there. Cell, who works as the link between Freeza and Majin Buu at all levels, is really the only one who had his full time during the Cell arc and was subsequently "forgotten".
As far as the MAJOR villains go, my LEAST favorite one is Majin Buu, especially in his fat form. He's just too likeable a character to be taken seriously, which is the entire reason why they changed his design later on during the saga. If you include DB, Piccolo Daimao is right there at the top (I think my kanji in my avatar says it all, and I even have it tattooed on my chest). If you include the ones who weren't the main villains throughout a particular arc, you'd have to include the likes of Zarbon, Dodoria, the Ginyu Tokusentai, #19, Dr. Gero, #17, #18, Dabura, just to name the most prominent ones, and even Vegeta, who was initially introduced as basically a smaller version of Freeza (proud, evil, ruthless, a killing machine and apparently unbeatable).
The way I view it, the arcs should be divided this way, along with the respective main villain(s):
Piccolo Daimao arc - Piccolo Daimao
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc - Piccolo
Saiya-jin arc - Vegeta
Freeza arc - Freeza
Jinzouningen arc - #17 and #18
Cell arc - Cell
Majin Buu arc - Majin/Kid Buu
There are two additional main villains, who can be found in the Trunks Special: Future #17 and Future #18
The perfect villain is Freeza, since you can end up really hating him (he's evil, ruthless, proud, egotistical, maniacal, genocidal, uncaring, racist and sadistic). Not a single trace of goodness or respect towards life other than his own inside of him. Hence his place as arguably the most charismatic villain in all of Dragonball. In a way, that makes him my favorite villain, but there are other factors on which to judge that position, and Cell just has some sort of appeal in terms of the class + power combo that should make him extremely attractive, although he's just as egotistical, evil and ruthless as the others (in his first form, he absorbs millions of humans in a horrific way through his tail, and in his second form he murders thousands of people by destroying islands in an uncaring manner in search for #18). Kid Buu can't even really be deemed "evil", he just destroys everything and everyone in sight out of sheer pleasure, he probably doesn't even understand the concept of "right" or "wrong", he's just a force of nature whose only purpose is to destroy.
I highly doubt there's 1% of probability of it ever happening in the near future, in DBSuper or anywhere else, but I would more than welcome the concept of having Cell back at least for a few episodes.
If you include the Movies, then obviously Brolly has to be considered the most charismatic villain, since he's just a force of nature, supposed to be next-to-invincible and absolutely psychotic. I also like the concept of Tullece, Cooler (to some degree) and Janenba, and I regard their respective movies (Movie 3, Movie 5 and Movie 12), along with Movie 8, as my favorite/the best ones, despite their non-canonness and their depiction of "what-if" scenarios based on the exploring of potentially interesting concepts/villains/events with a rushed plot.
I have some sort of fascination with demons/hell/the devil, so I've always had a special place for Dabura as well.
Not including Beerus in this, as he can't really be deemed "evil". Nor "good", either". He's neutral, no one's ally, he's been tasked with a "mission" and merely sees to it that it's done, with a few whims over trivial matters that cause him to destroy a little bit more than he was supposed to. However, he's laid-back, displays many comic characteristics and behaviors and is even gentle/polite, especially in BoG. Additionally, he's such a strange entity that he probably lacks the same understanding of "right" or "wrong" as normal, emotional beings have. It's not that he doesn't understand that, it's that he's BEYOND that. Whis doesn't seem to disapprove of any of his apparently "evil" actions, which further strengthens the theory. The concept of his personality/being is totally new in Dragonball prior to his introduction, which is part of his success among the fans, including myself.
If I had to make an absolute list of my all-time favorite characters, I'd have to go with:
1 - Vegeta
2 - Piccolo
3 - Tenshinhan
(Interestingly enough, all of them share a background of having been evil in the past and having turned good, although the pace at which they do it differs radically from each other; in Tenshinhan's case, all it takes is a few advices from Muten Roshi and one arc, in Piccolo's case, despite never discarding his seriousness and anti-social behavior, he goes from being a maniacal demon to a full-fledged good guy having all but lost all traces of evil in his heart in two or three arcs (by the Jinzouningen arc his transition is complete), while in Vegeta's case the progression is much more gradual and incremental, he was first introduced as a full-fledged villain, he displays some respect towards the Earthlings by refraining from killing them on Namek and making an alliance with them, he joins the gang in the Jinzouningen arc and has a son with Bulma - "the bad guy among the good guys" - and has his final instance of really evil wrongdoing in the early Majin Buu arc, letting himself become possessed by Babidi and killing hundreds or thousands of people at the stadium; after that, his transition is also complete and all that remains is his obsession to surpass Kakarotto and all fighters, to become number one in the Universe, his pride and his natural anti-social behavior and difficulty to adapt to times of peace, apart from his deep-down love for his family and life in general.
4 - Piccolo Daimao (could be higher up, it's a tough call)
5 - Cell
6 - Goku (yes, he's this low in my list and despite instances in which I found myself enthusiastically cheering for him as the sole ray of hope for defeating a particular villain - especially Freeza, given the circumstances -, I found myself smiling at the times in which he took a major beating at the hands of Piccolo Daimao and Beerus). I do admire him and his willingness, as a pure Saiya-jin, to keep overcoming his obstacles, adversaries and his own limits, which he does on a virtually infinite number of occasions, only to be found outclassed again and having to surpass himself yet once more, starting the entire process all over again, just like Vegeta, who despite having surpassed a number of warriors who had been previously stronger than him (Zarbon, Dodoria, Recoome, Ginyu, Freeza, #18, Cell) also had his own fair share of major ass-kickings (Zarbon, Recoome, Freeza, #18, Cell) after proclaiming himself - again - the strongest fighter in the entire Universe.
7 - Dabura
8 - Tullece (if you include the movies)
Never been a fan of Gohan, except when he lost it, went Super Saiya-jin 2 and thrashed the Cell Juniors and Cell himself. Before that, he's a crybaby, and after that, he's a nerd more focused on studying and being overly-polite and well-spoken and well-mannered than tapping onto his immeasurable potential as a warrior.
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