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BlackCatScott wrote:
Thoroughly enjoyed it once again! I think the episode was well balanced. We spent a bit of time with everybody. Not sure on the content of the episode itself until I see it subbed but I enjoyed the hell out of it anyway.
Oh and... The Bingo stage!
Animation for Ep 4 looked different... really thick outlines on the characters. Not sure what that's all about?
The way they're doing is getting me hyped. They're distributing the time we spend with each character/sets of characters very well. I could hardly see how they could have distributing the time allocated for each character/family better.
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Blade wrote:
On the whole as a narrative spectacle I'd say this week was another superficially enjoyable episode. I'd argue, however, that it certainly felt a little bit drawn out in how it went over already-established facts, which in places, seemed quite unnecessary.
I'm not sure I'm all the way on-board with how they're trying to whip up a foreboding tone around Beerus' awakening. I think every scene on the Kaioshin home-world has more or less covered the exact same ground of 'Oh no. Beerus is awake'. I liked how in Battle of Gods their reaction to his awakening was briefly shown, but now in Super we've had three episodes of those characters being used in scene after scene to do more or less exactly the same thing. I mean, even for viewers who may be unfamiliar with Beerus and Whis, Super has already shown them to be not exactly the tyrannically evil Dragonball antagonists that we've had in the past - so why are they being hyped up as such in the narrative over and over again? It just feels like, at this point, it's both arbitrary and a little incongruous.
After they've chosen to go down the road of retelling BoG and introduce Beerus and Whis, we could see this coming. The whole atmosphere of BoG and indeed Fukkatsu no F lacked the seriousness and drama of DB's Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. arcs and DBZ's Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, the Majin Buu arcs. The environment is much smoother and all the way throughout BoG (and indeed, Fukaktsu no F) you feel that there really is no serious threat to the warriors, Earth or the Universe (in BoG's case, because Beerus lacks the tyrannical, evil, genocidal, maniacal characteristics of villains from pretty much all of the previous arcs, such as Vegeta in his early days, Freeza or Cell, and in Fukaktsu no F's case, because Goku and Vegeta had the situation under control all the time and Beerus and Whis were present as well).
Beerus can't be seen as a hero/good guy nor as a bad guy either. He certainly cannot be deemed a "villain". That's why, after so many years of inactivity, Toriyama really put a lot of effort to come up with yet another entirely different character, and the creative process resulted in Beerus, with all of his laid-back/extremely powerful combo characteristics which make him such an enjoyable and lovable character with such great potential in terms of background and character development.
It might be discussed whether or not retelling BoG and reintroducing Beerus and Whis, and indeed the concept of Super Saiya-jin God, pretty much line-by-line and in almost the same exact circumstances although at a different timing (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later) is the right way to go at it, and we might never come to a definitive conclusion, but from the point when we got the info that they BoG and Fukkatsu no F were going to be turned into their own arcs within DBSuper on, it was obvious to all of us that we would only be really introduced to some serious, dramatic new events and characters/villains with extremely high degrees of power in the exploration of the 6th Universe arc. After accepting this fact, we've got to be pretty satisfied with the way they're choosing to distribute the time given to each character and events in these first episodes. The storyline is moving at quite a fast pace, but just the right one. We focused on Goku + Goten/Mr. Satan + Majin Buu in the first episode and on Vegeta + Bulma + Trunks in the second one, and now we got Krillin + #18, while all the time throughout the series being presented with somewhat mysterious/chilling scenes from Beerus and Whis. They'll never change the personality traits of either of them, given how much potential they've got, and we've already confirmed that in these first 3 episodes after witnessing their actions and interactions.
It might be tough for some of us to go through the process of "decanonizing" BoG after having accepted it as a canon, direct sequence in Dragonball's one and only timeline to the events of Majin Buu's arc in DBZ and the 2008 special, but after some hard time I already came to accept the fact that BoG and Fukaktsu no F are no longer canon continuations of the storyline. We already got rid of GT and it has to be considered non-canon, as in, it never "happened", and It would be the ideal thing to just retcon the last 3 episodes of DBZ, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, as whatever happens throughout the Beerus, Freeza and the 6th Universe arcs within DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and I'm not satisfied with that, as by the time we get to the events of the last 3 episodes of DBZ it just doesn't seem or feel like they went through all of that.
I would like to go back, have the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, the ending of DBZ and GT "removed" from existence as canon direct continuations of the timeline following the Majin Buu arc, and expand upon Beerus, Freeza and the 6th Universe arc (with who-knows how many and how powerful antagonists/villains it will provide us) with the knowledge that we're not just exploring a 10-year gap leading towards something which we've already seen (the last 3 episodes of DBZ), but rather entirely previously unexplored material which will lead us to totally new events in whatever timeline they choose to do it at. That would also have the additional advantage of providing us with the ability to cease from having to care or take into consideration events which have taken place after DBSuper's Beerus, Freeza and the 6th Universe arcs to which we've already been introduced back in 1996. It's still highly debated whether or not they'll go for a retcon of the ending of DBZ, but it would indeed solve any inconsistencies or plot holes and we could have Pan, for example, be born at whatever time they choose, and go down the road of any time-skips to whatever new events they choose in any way they deem to be fit.
I don't know if any of you share the same feeling on the following, but Beerus' temple in BoG provided me with a fantastic and wonderful atmosphere, and I got an even stronger feeling in this third episode of DBSuper. I just love Beerus' house and the whole circumstances in which he interacts with Whis. Although they're following the Beerus/Whis plot almost on a sentence-by-sentence basis when compared to BoG, the entirely new stuff builds up on and expands upon the magnificent sensation and atmosphere Beerus' living headquarters already provided us in the movie. That's the feeling I've got, especially in this third episode.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
sanorin wrote:
DragonHermit wrote:
GT's concepts were at least original...Super doesn't seem like a serious anime at all.
You don't get that anxiety that you had waiting for Goku while fighting Vegeta and Nappa, or Krillin and Gohan sneaking around while Freeza's soldiers patrolled the planet. Nor do we have characters with the motivation of Trunks...
Remember the beginning of the Buu saga? It was mostly slices of life of Gohan, nothing really happened, no tension or anything for like 10 episodes until Kaioshin appeared in the tournament, and even after then, Babidi and Buu were not revealed for 10 more episodes.
In Super we have Beerus, the God of Destruction, from the first episode, and it's obvious he's looking for some action which we'll get in the 5th episode.
The Boo saga began after a huge battle with Cell. So some downtime to explore the new setting is welcome. Also we're at a new age with Gohan being older and generally everyone else aging 7 years. New characters Goten and a grown up Trunks being introduced. A new setting of what happened after the events of Cell and how Mr. Satan became huge.
A better comparison is comparing how Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT started off in comparison to Super, instead of just picking a saga to start with. Boo saga isn't where DBZ started. Personally I feel all the previous anime/manga did a better job setting up than Super. Dragon Ball had Goku be introduced, us meeting Bulma, our quest unveiled to us as well as the first showing of Goku's abilities right off the bat. We then got some settling time with them, but also had some progression on their quest with each episode/chapter.
Dragon Ball Z had us introduced to Raditz who was making Piccolo, the guy who gave Goku a run for his money last time, wet himself in terror. We also get some Goku/Gohan antics in the anime for some introductions. Then the following episode we get the bombshell of Goku being an alien, and this space guy being Goku's brother. Holy crap. We then see Goku get utterly decimated by his brother and then have to work with his greatest enemy Piccolo to rescue his son.
GT was a little more casual, but we still got some things going on. We return to a cool bout between Goku and Oob, seeing how things paid off with them after years of training. We learn there is a whole new set of Dragon Balls (Super has some too, but we have not been introduced to them yet). We then see Goku become a kid (Stupid or not it leaves an impact), and then learn these Dragon Balls will cause the earth to explode.
Super has some sweet moments, and some background stuff with Beerus leading up to a plot. We see Beerus do some cool stuff, but nothing that really leaves a huge impact. He beats up an alien from another world...ok. We hear about Super Saiyan God...kinda. We get some fun times with Goku and Vegeta's families. While nice, that's not leaving me with any impact at all like how the previous series all started. It also has the disadvantage of retelling the past story we knew of, killing some of the new experience for some of us.
Does Super really sound like the most gripping or engaging opening? I personally don't think so. However that isn't what it's going for. For some people they're happy Super decides to let us enjoy a reunion with characters we love. For others they're not happy that the plot is pretty empty and taking a backseat for a while. Then there's some who probably want some more action. Personally I love the down time, but think it probably shouldn't have been shown off this soon. I would rather the story drastically be changed to maybe compensate for the more laid back beginning.
The purpose of the first two family-oriented episodes in DBSuper (although showing us some mysterious/chilling appearances by Beerus) was to reintroduce us properly to Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Bulma, Trunks, Goten, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, #18, Chi Chi, Kaiou-sama, Kibitoshin, Majin Buu and even Mr. Satan after so many years of creative inactivity between 1997 and 2008. We had some character development in the 2008 special and in BoG, but in the new movies they've been doing in this stage of revitalizing Dragonball (the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and Kai) we were presented with the difficulty of proper expansion due to the time restraints typical of a movie, even a longer one like BoG.
I think we can't and shouldn't even compare GT to DBSuper. For many reasons. First of all, GT was created right after the end of DBZ in a rush, it basically took on the worst aspects of the Majin Buu arc in DBZ, by which time Toriyama was already starting to struggle for new interesting ideas worthy of DBZ (which is understandable, after so many incessant years of intensive creative processes to come up with all the events and character backgrounds for all the arcs from DB and DBZ until Majin Buu), Toriyama wasn't even involved, it got rid of fundamental characters with fantastic backgrounds and the overall decision to have a new series begin to air right after the ending of DBZ in 1996, at which time everyone was overly tired of coming up with new ideas, characters and events on a constant basis, was a decision made for commercial purposes, which resulted in something close to a disastrous experience. I'm not a pure GT hater and I think we've already discussed GT's quality, or lack of it, thoroughly throughout the years, and the debate is pretty much tiresome at this point, but comparing it to DBSuper makes utterly no sense to me.
The whole circumstances in which DBSuper is being presented by themselves should be enough to make a clear separation and distinction between the two series, especially taking into account that DBSuper is being created 19 years after DBZ and GT was created right after it. Toriyama had more than a decade to lay back and get rid of the strain and pressure to come up with new ideas and concepts for villains/antagonists and events, hence the quality of the series, regardless of the atmosphere it will put forth or is putting forth, will be obviously and undeniably superior. We could look at the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as the building up of a new creative period for Toriyama and Dragonball which eventually finally led to DBSuper as a full-fledged new series. It's an entire process of revitalizing Dragonball and we need to welcome DBSuper, just as we did BoG and Fukkatsu no F, with open arms. I mean, it's been 18 years since we've had another full-fledged Dragonball series. Some of my friends weren't even born when DBZ ended. It's quite hard to grasp this concept and the enormity of the significance of this event.
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Both Beerus AND Freeza were going to wipe out the Saiya-jin and destroy Planet Vegeta on their own anyway. The way it appears to have happened, Freeza was afraid that there would be a Saiya-jin revolt and/or that the race would produce a Super Saiya-jin to match or overcome his power eventually, and on top of that he was ordered/asked by Beerus to destroy the planet.
Beerus is now officially fully responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs on Earth in the Dragonball Universe and sealing Rou Dai Kaioshin in the Z sword and partially responsible for the genocide of the Saiya-jin. The only major event out of these three is the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and the story remains that Freeza would go further with it anyway even if he hadn't been told by Beerus to do it. Even Zarbon himself expressed his fears over the growing strength of even the lower-class Saiya-jin in the Bardock Special, and Freeza picked up on those comments and took them as a suggestion.
I doubt we'll get more instances of past events to which Beerus will be connected, or for which he was responsible at some point, but even if we get them, it's only fitting, as he's above even the Kaioshin as a deity and surely as a fighter, the second-strongest warrior in the Universe, the God of Destruction and pretty much terrifying to anybody who even knows of his existence. That's just how Beerus and Whis have to be looked at from the moment of their introduction in BoG and now with their reintroduction along the same exact lines in DBSuper: immensely powerful fighters who happen to be deities and above anyone else in the Universe, most certainly including any of the past antagonists/villains (Freeza, Cell and even any form of Majin Buu), any deities AND any of the good guys (Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and Ultimate Gohan included).
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Doctor. wrote:
Like I said earlier, Jouji Yanami sounds even weaker in this episode, which is a shame. He really should quit while he's ahead, this can't be good for him, they could have used the work he did for Kai for that flashback, too. Also no episode next week, dang it, I was excited for Pilaf shenanigans and that promising animation we saw in the preview. I don't know how good the subs I watched were, but I could tell they were significantly better than the ones I watched for the last 2 episodes.
I think this is better than Battle of Gods so far, if we exclude the animation quality. It's doing a better job of showing the daily life of the characters, the interactions have been great, it's doing a MUCH better job of setting up Beerus as a genuine threat and is improving his characterization, since Battle of Gods only showed his playful side, and not his evil one. Whis is being the star of the show for now, though.
Is Vegeta using "ore-sama" again? I thought he stopped using it back in the Boo arc? Either way, I think they're setting it up for Vegeta to be the one who becomes the SSG (or becomes one along with Goku, since Champa is around). The SSG vision Beerus had resembled Vegeta to me, not to mention that I wouldn't find it surprising if Goku refuses the power-up instead of accepting it and then saying it's shit like in BoG.
Shouldn't Kaio have been revived when it was wished for everyone who was killed by Cell to be revived? Or did he refuse? I don't remember, but either way, he shouldn't either a) be dead because he should have been revived or b) talk smack to Goku about being dead, because he refused it. The animation when he was chasing Goku also looked weird, though I don't know if this was intentional or not.
I'll have to wait for better subs to know if Beerus really ordered Freeza to destroy Vegeta, but I doubt it. The other two films, along with Minus, say the contrary, that Freeza destroyed it out of his own will. Hell, in Minus we see Freeza actually making the decision on his own, and there's no mention of Beerus at all. I don't like how they keep using the same short Egyptian-like track for all Beerus scenes, it's starting to get repetitive, they've used it twice in this episode alone.
It was worse than last week's, but good as a whole still. I'm not worried about the episodes of the BoG arc being bad, at least until we get to the Vegeta rage scene, because the film itself was good, and unless they fuck it all up royally, so will this arc. I'll start getting worried once the F arc comes along.
It looks as though Vegeta has indeed regressed in his gradual and incremental evolution from an evil genocidal villain in his early days to a full-fledged family man and good guy in the Majin Buu arc. They're not going to have him kill anybody or do some pretty nasty things, the last instance we've had of really evil stuff Vegeta did was his possession by Babidi and his killing of hundreds of people at the stadium shortly after. By the time of Goku's fight against Kid Buu he goes as far as to acknowledge Kakarotto as the Number 1 Saiya-jin, and seems to have pretty much accepted that fact in the following episodes. We didn't expand on that in the 2008 special or BoG a lot - though we did a bit in Fukkatsu no F -, but in DBSuper we had already seen his regression in the second episode, when he states he has no intention of remaining the second-strongest (although, to be more precise, as a Super Saiya-jin 2, he's below even Ultimate Gohan at this point, so he's not even Number 2 even among the good guys only). Not only did he express his intentions to surpass Kakarotto once again, regaining his full obsession manifested throughout the Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs in DBZ, he stated he wanted to be and was going to be eventually above ANYONE in the Universe (hinting at his upcoming confrontation with Beerus, Freeza and/or Champa). Going back to the "ore-sama" instead of just plain "ore", it just goes to show that regression. It's a good thing to have him reacquire his full obsession to become the strongest in the Universe.
I've always thought that just because you're more of a protagonist in the series than someone else, it doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than them. That's the case with Vegeta/Gohan in DBSuper, for example. Ultimate Gohan, by the time of the Majin Buu arc, and 6 months later, was high above Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and had a power close to/on par with that of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku. Vegeta had no chance of overcoming that gap in these 6 months, so by the time of these first episodes Vegeta has to be considered to be below even Gohan. I'm not going to get into another power level debate or generate a list, though. I'm just stating that the main protagonists of DBSuper as far as the "good guys" are concerned are Goku and Vegeta. I've always defended that before Vegeta reached Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F Vegeta had himself reached, or become able to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 himself, putting him fully on par with Goku/Ultimate Gohan at their strongest, and THEN went on to reach the Super Saiya-jin God stage (which builds up on the strongest a particular Saiya-jin is), pretty much following the exact same steps Goku did, although a bit later. The Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 3 thing is just that, a theory; it might well be than the Super Saiya-jin God stage provides any particular Saiya-jin the same abilities and power level even if the previous highest transformation was different in terms of Ki. By the time Vegeta reaches Super Saiya-jin God, and then "absorbs" its characteristics and abilities and becomes able to use them even in his base form, just like Goku did in BoG, he has finally overcome Gohan and managed to skip the gap between that degree/dimension of power and that of Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Beerus and Whis. As in, matching the actual power of Vegeta to his degree of protagonism, when compared to Gohan.
Obviously, having surpassed Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, he has also surpassed the fat version of Majin Buu, Super Saiya-jin Gotenks, Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks, Kid Buu and all the variations of Super Buu as well, although I'm not sure he would be above Vegitto, who is about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku. Goku does say that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (Vegitto, or Gogeta) would be enough to beat Beerus, and SSJG Goku is shown to be able to give Beerus some trouble in their fight in BoG, which suggests that Super Saiya-jin God Goku might be above Vegitto in terms of power, but that's highly debatable for more than one reason.
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I don't look at Vegeta's characterization in this to be regression. Vegeta accepted that Goku was better than him because ultimately, their different philosophies is what really sets Goku apart. But make no mistake, Vegeta is still a Saiyan, and even though he's accepted that Goku might be his superior, he's still going to strive to be the best. It's a personal goal for attaining strength. He's still his rival, there's just no fierce animosity anymore. Vegeta is still Vegeta, even as a family man.
Hold on a minute, I didn't say that just because Vegeta is now a family man, had acknowledged Kakarotto as stronger and more gifted than him by the time Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is figthing Kid Buu and his evil has pretty much all but disappeared just like Piccolo's had by the Freeza or Jinzouningen arc, it should mean that he would lose ANY of his personality traits and suddenly would become Mr. Nice Guy all of a sudden. It wouldn't be Vegeta at all if any of that even came close to happen. However, when I used the term "regression" I meant that he not only obviously wants to become stronger and stronger and is a training/fighting maniac, like all pure Saiya-jin, his lines in the second episode when training in the gravity room make it pretty obvious that he had gone back to the whole "surpassing Kakarotto", "I'll show you, Kakarotto", "I'll be above all" routine, which is quite a strong regression to his absolute and not-so-healthy obsession with overcoming everyone and especially Kakarotto. It's not as hard as it was during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, which have seen the pinnacle of this obsession of Vegeta's, but he sounded/seemed pretty much intent on training and surpassing himself and the others to a point comparable to what we had seen at earlier points throughout DBZ, which is something we didn't really see either in the later stages of the Majin Buu arc, in the 2008 special or in BoG, or in Fukkatsu no F to some degree, for that matter.
Of course, when I say it's a not-so-healthy obsession I'm classifying it that way simply because that's what it is: an obsession. However, it's that obsession and utter absolute desire to become the strongest/stronger than Kakarotto to the point or reaching the borders of near-insanity that always pushed Vegeta to overcome his past limits and keep surpassing both himself and others and reaching new heights all the time throughout DBZ. That's basically the feeling we got from his lines in episode 2 of DBSuper when he was training.
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I've watched this episode twice now, here's some quick thoughts I've gathered-
-Man, the animation was really not great this episode. I barely minded the animation in the first two episodes. Every shot obviously didn't look as great as it can be, but for a TV size budget production, I thought up to now it was more than acceptable. This episode definitely fell down some steps though. The first two episodes I thought most people were crazy for bagging on the animation. This episode, I completely understand anyone who has a bone to pick with it. I expect more episodes down the line will look like this, but I hope it's not too many more.
-I'm glad we're getting more Beerus and Whis traveling scenes. Always thought Whis' travel animation was so cool in Battle of Gods, and I'm glad we're getting alternate perspectives on what that looks like now. I dig all those bits a lot.
-I'm also glad we're getting more Kaioshin/Elder Kai conversations. I loved seeing those characters again in Battle of Gods, but was slightly disappointed that it was just a short scene in the beginning and the end, but that's all they were needed for really. Here I've been highly enjoying all of the extra time. I'm expecting at a point focus will shift away from that when Beerus makes it to Earth, and that will be fine. For now though, glad we're getting more moments with those characters.
-I don't mind that the conversation/description of who Beerus is was given to the Supreme Kai's to discuss this time around. However, what I don't like is how they emphasize more on what a bad job he does, and not how appropriate his role in the Universe is. I thought in the Battle of Gods extended cut, King Kai did a perfect job of conveying to Goku who Beerus is, and why he's so dangerous, but at the same time making sure to put emphasis on the fact that "yeah he's dangerous, but he helps create balance, he's a very essential part in this whole system, can't have life without death, etc." Definitely helped give the audience the impression that this may be our antagonist for the story right now, but he's not really a "bad guy" or a "villain" in the classical sense. I don't mind that they decided to mention this time around that Beerus' process of choosing planets is frowned upon, because it is and that's never mentioned in the film, but yeah, that was the big emphasis there and I feel like the audience loses out on the key factor of "we need this guy for balance" and it ultimately makes Beerus feel more like a bad guy (at the moment) here than he was in the film. Not a fan of that, would love it if they revisit the dialogue between King Kai and Goku from the film to reinform everyone that Beerus has a pretty legit position in the order of things.
-Always love when they call back to the older events from the series, definitely continues to help make Super feel more like an extended piece of the show, rather than it's own one off thing. Having King Kai remind Goku of the Cell incident was cool for that, and just for the fact to let the audience know that yes, the writers do remember that King Kai was without his planet up until now. I don't mind that they've been reusing old footage either. Again, I feel like that helps a lot with the immersion aspect and helping weave Super into the original series, even if the choice for it is solely due to production costs. Reminds me of when they would use PS1 style flash backs in Metal Gear Solid 4, or when they would use 8-bit flash backs to the original Kid Icarus in Kid Icarus Uprising. Just reminds the audience "oh right, this new story is meant to be apart of this old thing. Feels great to be home again!"
-Love the Oracle Fish character, glad she(?) got more than three lines in this version of events. Enjoyed the whole convo about the three meals and such.
-I generally don't mind that they've been working Beerus into all of these old pieces of history. Once again, I feel like it just helps immerse and weave this new story into all of the older stuff, and make it feel like a much more organic part of everything else than most of the other movies and specials. Most problems people seem to have with this stuff I think can do away with a quick explanation. Beerus was responsible for the dinosaurs going extinct. However, he's also fairly lazy and careless, so it's not much of a surprise that he seems to have missed a decent number of them. Beerus may have asked told, commanded, whatever context they put it in, Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta. However, just because he told Freeza to do it doesn't mean that's why Freeza decided to do it. Would any of us really put it past Freeza to go "feh! I'm not going to destroy the Saiyan's because you want me to, I'm going to do this because I personally want them gone!"? The Z-sword thing is the only bit I'm indifferent on so far. On one hand, it's cool to finally have that mystery resolved. I've always wondered what "being even more powerful and fearsome than Majin Buu" could have had the stuff to trap a Supreme Kai away. On the other hand, when that anecdote is first mentioned, it's within the midst of all the turmoil and fear the characters currently feel toward Majin Buu at that time. It definitely was a neat thing to sort of leave up to the imaginaiton of the viewer, trying to think of a monster ourselves that could be even scarier and crazier than Majin Buu. I kind of liked always having that, but at the same time it's hard to argue against wanting to further weave Beerus into things.
-Despite the animation for the rest of the episode having gone down the tubes, one thing I really enjoyed was how they reanimated the Goku vs Freeza fight. I thought it looked even better than the reanimated version that was in the film. That surprised me, it was a really quick, but super awesome bit. The music during that scene, and during the subsequent one when Beerus and Whis are discussing plans to track down the Saiyans, was also pretty rad. Not a lot of music from this series has stood out too loudly to me so far, in a good or bad way. But that was one of a few moments over the course of these first three episodes that I really went "oh wow, digging the music, you can really tell things are ramping up now!"
-I'm already loving the new location for Bulma's birthday party. Wasn't sure what to think when I first heard about it, but I'm on board with it now. It's already proven that this setting will provide a lot of new, interesting, fun, and most of all diverse character moments from what Battle of Gods had, as proven already by the Roshi/Oolong binoculars scene.
-Overall, this to me felt like the true first episode of the "Battle of Gods" arc. I had a much different mindset in mind watching this one versus the first two episodes. The first two episodes felt like these all brand new "time of peace episodes" that took place post-Buu pre-BoG. This episode was almost entirely comprised of newly adapted versions of Battle of Gods stuff. Every step of this episode I found myself thinking about how much more or less I enjoyed certain parts compared to the film, where the first two episodes just encompassed way more new stuff that I felt along for the ride for. This isn't a critcism at all, just an interesting observation so far. I'm definitely a lot more curious now how the rest of this arc will end up playing out.
-I love the look of the animation for episode 4 so far! It's weird, crazy, and very different. It has a weird allure to it that I'm into. Doesn't look like the type of animation I would want the whole series to be in, but I'm totally down for a few episodes of Super in that style. I'm surprised I haven't seen it really brought up, but the number one thing the animation style in that preview reminded me of was all the Goten & Trunks vs. Hitler bits in Fusion Reborn.
Spoiler:View
It had actually already been pointed out. The streamlined parts we see in the preview for episode 4 of DBSuper reminded most people, including me, of the parts in Movie 12 where we see not only Goten + Trunks vs Hitler and his army but also Mr. Satan vs zombies, among others, in pretty much the same light. I definitely like the way at least Beerus looks in Kaiou-sama's planet drawn that way. It provides the animation and drawing with a much stronger touch than it would do otherwise, but it's not something that is meant to be used all the way throughout the entirety of the series, though. Episode 2 won't be entirely like that, though, as we've seen in the episode's preview. I wonder if they'll keep using that streamlined bits on upcoming episodes, and just why they chose to do it for episode 4 of DBSuper and indeed why just in parts of it. I guess it's just another instance in which we'll just have to wait and see until we finally get to see the episode itself.
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johnnygodto wrote:
Why did Beerus say he exterminated the dinosaurs? They still exist in DBZ.
He most likely randomly went to Earth millions of years ago back at a time the dinosaurs were still the dominant species on the planet. As he himself says both in BoG and in episode 3 of DBSuper, they took what he deemed a "rude" attitude towards him and he, according to his own words, "annihilated" them. A few survived, obviously. He'd have a hard time in terms of time to go around and kill every single one of them without just blowing the planet up with every single living thing on it, including ALL of the dinosaurs. The ones before me who established a parallel between the genocide of the Saiya-jin by Freeza were accurate, it's basically the same thing. ALMOST all of the Saiya-jin were wiped out, 4 (or 5, if you include Tarble, and I'm only including canon stuff, leaving out the movies, obviously) survived. We can still consider it to be a genocide though, just like Nazi Germany created the Holocaust and committed a genocide against the jews, while millions of them still survived (just to mention one instance of genocide). You can't really wipe out a race completely in practical terms unless you kill each and every single one of them almost on an one-by-one basis.
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goku the krump dancer wrote:
Seeing as though we're most likely getting an entire episode dedicated to the Pilaf shenanigans, I hope its funnier this time around.. Though I will say after watching BoG in english most of the gang's segment was a lot funnier… maybe its the language barrier that prevents his jokes to fully come across.. or maybe its just that I haven't watched The Original DB in Japanese yet aside from Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle so I don't really have a grasp of Pilaf's persona in that language. Cuz I don't have this problem with anyone else.
Don't know if everybody else, or the majority of you, feel the same, but back in the early 2000s and throughout that decade I was an intense critic of America's version of DBZ, especially due to the change in the music, change in the dialogue, mixing of episodes and reducing their number, childish exchanges of speech, etc., etc. I mean, it was like watching an entirely different show, except for the original animation itself. I still hold that view, although not so strongly, especially after FUNImation decided to partially keep the original BGM, and I believe that it's just absolutely necessary to keep the original Japanese music in DB and DBZ, including that of the opening and closing themes, to be able to achieve and comprehend Dragonball's entire fantastic atmosphere.
As in almost everything, the original is the best. From over a decade ago I refrained from watching DB or DBZ in any other language than in Japanese, and I had access to a number of dubs, especially that of my own country (Portugal), and as a result of years and years of watching the original Japanese episodes over and over on an almost daily basis while keeping an eye on the subtitles, by now I pretty much don't need any subtitles to understand what's being said, most likely like most of you. As a consequence of that, I've also came to learn quite a large chunk of Japanese without even realizing it.
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irreality wrote:
soulnova wrote:
make up comes from both parents. We know so far that King Vegeta was the strongest before Prince Vegeta was born... they were the only two true Elite warriors, as Toriyama stated. Now, we know Vegeta and Tarble are also shorter than the average Saiyan, even though their father seemed to be as tall as Goku/Bardock... meaning they most likely got that trait from their mother. I mean... Tarble is almost the same height as Krillin. Holy shit. We don't know how strong she was, but I guess King Vegeta would pick a strong Queen to give him strong heirs... and yet, I have started to suspect that perhaps she secretly/unknowingly had some diluted Tsufurunjin ascendance that manifested HARD on Tarble (weak, soft/nice and freaking small). It would explain why the King would send him away. It would be scandalous among Saiyans if it came to light. For all intents and purposes, Tarble didn't exist.
Neat Theory. :) My theory was just that Vegeta was treated poorly as a kid with Freeza and didn't get fed enough by Saiyan standards and his growth was stunted (or was maybe lacking vitamins, who knows). Trunks ends up being a more normal height, after all, even though Dr. Brief isn't all that tall, either.
Tarble, being weak and abandoned in some remote planet, had an even harder time growing up. Maybe ths is too bleak for Dragon Ball.
The way genetics work, you can get a short child even if (both of) their parents are tall/normal-heighted, and the other way around. We need to take into account we're talking about a fictional, Dragonball universe, which has more than one instance of presenting us with laws and events that deviate from that of the real world. However, most people tend to retain the physical characteristics not from their immediate parents, but from their grandparents, in fact, especially in terms of eye color. It could be that King Vegeta's and/or Vegeta's mother's parents were physically short, just like Vegeta is. This theory is further strengthened by the fact that also Tarble himself is extremely small, which is a rarity for the normal standards of Saiya-jin, who can't be really deemed giants but then to have at least a normal humanoid height or slightly above that average.
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Has anyone thought about/made a comparison between Beerus as an antagonist and the past villains from DB and DBZ in terms of the seriousness of the environment surrounding them?
Obviously, taking the movies (Brolly, #13, Tullece, Slug, Cooler, Janenba, etc.) and other non-canon villains out of the picture, we're reduced to the main villains of all of DB's later arcs and the entirety of DBZ's arcs: Piccolo Daimao (Piccolo Daimao arc), Piccolo (Piccolo Jr. arc), Vegeta (Saiya-jin arc), Freeza (Freeza arc), #17 and #18 (Jinzouningen arc), Cell (Cell arc) and Majin Buu (Majin Buu arc). One of the things, perhaps the most important one, which made Dragonball so fantastic was not only the character development and background, the interactions between characters, the values of friendship/goodness/protection presented in the series or even the insane and mind-boggling fighting, was the entire atmosphere of hopelessness, despair, seriousness and violence. After so many years of creative inactivity by Toriyama, between 1996 (last episodes of DBZ) and 2013 (BoG), and taking into account the entire new audience DBZ is intended to conquer just like it did the ones in their 30's back in the 80's and 90's, and after having come up with pretty much every potential idea or concept for villains, events, fights, stages and characters, Toriyama decided to go down the road of presenting us with an entirely new concept for an antagonist (and that's the most appropriate term to describe Beerus, as he certainly cannot be deemed "evil" or a "villain").
Sure enough, if we hadn't seen BoG or if it never existed, and we were now being introduced to Beerus/Whis for the very first time in these first episodes of DBSuper, the first three episodes provided us of scenes which could be deemed chilling or in the very least mysterious, indicating an upcoming extremely powerful antagonist was on his way to meet Goku and the others and cause trouble.
However, even so, even if you were by now anticipating major trouble on Earth for Goku and the others against Beerus, you certainly didn't see Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Majin Buu/Super Buu/Kid Buu in this light. Piccolo Daimao was the embodiment of evil with psychopathic and sadistic tendencies. Freeza was presented as a galactic overlord with a (confirmed) reputation of enslaving, torturing and killing entire races of beings, conquering planets, committing genocides, murdering people just because they're standing there, and was pretty much the very definition of evil + egocentrism + narcissism. He was a sadistic maniac who went as far as to kill Vegeta, Dende and even violently murdering Goku's best friend, Krillin, right in front of his eyes, by merely and literally blowing him up. Vegeta was slightly paranoid, ruthless and evil, a killing machine, arrogantly proud, a smaller version of Freeza (having been molded/influenced by the latter), and he murdered his long-time companion just because of failing to execute someone. Cell was presented to us a huge monster who absorbed the living shit out of millions of people through his tail and eventually became convinced of his own perfection and power, going as far as to state that "it was actually an honor to become a fraction his power" when considering his victims. Majin Buu, in his fat version, was presented as a child-like chubby magical beast who in a matter of minutes proceeded to partially blind Dabura, the King of the Demon Realm, and knocking him out with a brutal kick, then he beat Kaioshin to a pulp and blew Gohan away with a massive shockwave, and ultimately survived intact to Vegeta's life-ending suicidal explosion which was meant to vaporize him, rendering the move totally pointless. After that he went on to kill and eat millions of people. In his Super Buu variation, he annihilated the ENTIRE population of Earth after counting each and every one of the humans, with a single martial arts move, after having been suggested to do so by Piccolo. Kid Buu was a sociopath whose only purpose was to cause huge volumes of destruction by annihilating entire planets and solar systems with his massive, huge power, for no reason other than because it was just fun for him.
After these descriptions, can you really picture Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu talking politely, having a laid-back attitude, providing the viewers with a few briefly comic lines and appearing naked while taking an innocent shower, like Beerus?
This has nothing to do at all with power itself. Piccolo Daimao is tens of times less powerful by virtually anyone in the Saiya-jin arc, Vegeta is tens of times less powerful than Freeza during the Freeza arc, Freeza was easily defeated by Mirai no Trunks, who couldn't handle #17 and #18, who in turn were no match for second-stage Cell, let alone his perfect form; Perfect Cell, on the other hand, was no match for Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, who in turn was weaker than Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta when he fought Majin Buu. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku was stronger than the fat version of Majin Buu and the first version of Super Buu. Ultimate Gohan is about as strong as SSJ3 Goku, who nonetheless was weaker than the two strongest versions of Super Buu, who was nowhere near Vegitto, who was about twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan.
If we hadn't even seen BoG or heard a single thing about it, we would probably by now be mysteriously anticipating an extremely powerful YET AMUSING antagonist to the good guys back on Earth. In the process of revitalization of Dragonball, with Kai, the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and now with DBSuper, the entire atmosphere lacks the seriousness/darkness/violence which was present throughout the last two arcs of DB and the entirety of DBZ. Whether that's a good thing or not, it's subject to debate. I personally am a Dragonball maniac because of a number of factors, but the degree or amount of violence, desperate circumstances, drastic transformations and mind-blowing fights was what made the show so unrealistically fantastic. If you add an extremely well-developed storyline, a solid and intricate plot and more-than-interesting character backgrounds and interactions to it, you end up with what DBZ was.
I'm not asking you if you think DBSuper will live up to that. I'm saying that, in my view, it's not supposed to live up to it, that's not the point anymore. We won't be getting murders, blood and guts, violence and hopelessly dramatic circumstances like we did before. Those of us who were present in the 80's and 90's and followed each step of DB and DBZ as it happened about 20 years ago can't (and shouldn't) be expecting that. We need to view DBSuper and all it contains and has to offer us as Dragonball just the same, but with an entire different perspective to it, so that we can first view it, then accept it and then add it to the rest of Dragonball history, which is pretty much just untouchable. This is the only way not to be disappointed with ANY aspect of DBSuper, as a hardcore DBZ fan. Hopefully most, or indeed all of us will be capable of that.
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Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Lord Beerus is already shown to be on Kai's planet from the NEP of Ep 4. So does that mean we can assume that the big SS3 fight happens in the first half of Episode 5 and the second half is the start of Lord Beerus's shenanigans on Earth? I like the pace this is going at. Then Episode 6-7 can continue's the Earth stuff including Vegeta's infamous rage boost then Episode 8 Goku lands and they talk about SSG etc and Episode 9-10 is the SSG ritual and vs Beerus and wraps up the arc.
I hope they extend the Super Saiya-jin 3 vs Beerus fight by at least two or three more minutes when compared to BoG. In the movie, Goku lays a few punches, drills a hole through Kaiou-sama's planet and gets knocked out by a single pressure-point blow to the neck. I don't expect, nor do I want to - in order to demonstrate, yet again, Beerus' massive power, far beyond the leagues of SSJ3 Goku - see Goku giving Beerus any trouble, though. I want it to remain a one-sided battle just as it was in BoG. Having a new full-fledged series provides us with the possiblity of expanding on previous events seen in the movie(s) without the time restrictions typical of a movie, even a prolonged one like BoG.
I view your assessment of which events could take place in each of the following episodes as fairly accurate. I don't understand, though, why you deemed Vegeta's rage boost as "infamous". It's one of the best scenes/events from BoG, one which has the potential of bringing us some expansion and have Vegeta attain a new stage (we've been thoroughly discussing his ability to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 just days ago, no matter how far-fetched it may seem).
If you consider the first two episodes of DBSuper to be mainly focused on family-oriented events - although showing Beerus/Whis interactions on an alternate but constant basis -, then you could postulate that it was after the ending of the second episode - when Beerus has that "vision" of a new fighter and comes up with the name "Super Saiya-jin God" - and throughout the entirety of the third episode that we really got/get into the leading up to the confrontation between him and Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Majin Buu, Piccolo, #18 and Tenshinhan, just like in BoG. The Beerus arc within DBSuper could be done in 10 episodes (or 8, if you don't count the first smooth, family-focused two), leaving another 2 or 3 episodes to make up for the off-screen events between the BoG movie and the Fukkatsu no F movie (namely, Vegeta's reaching of SSJG and his and Goku's decision to go off and train with Whis). Then the Freeza arc in DBSuper would receive a fairly similar "treatment": another 10 episodes or so. By the time we reach 20/25 episodes in DBSuper we can move on to the exploration of the 6th Universe arc, which I would bet is going to be the one with the most episodes dedicated to it, as it's actually the only one with entirely new concepts, characters, villains and events, by which time I at least hope the series will undertake a more serious, dramatic tone.
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
So close to giving up on Super. Animation is piss poor not to mention the dialogue, story, etc. is straight garbage. I don't know how y'all aren't raising hell with Toei and AK at this point. The manga sucks too but definitely not as bad as the series.
It's really sad (and extremely frustrating) to see a heavy hitter like Dragonball get the C treatment.
I guess it's pointless to make another speech on how we need to view the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball which we've been undergoing in the last few years - which led to another full-fledged series after 18 years (!) - to you.
Dragonball is not just about the animation's quality. Throughout DB and DBZ, there were more than 10 teams of animators behind the episodes, working and delivering the episodes on an alternate basis. Some of them were horribly designed/animated, the others were absolutely fantastic. The newest animation (Kai's opening and closing, Episode of Bardock, the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and now DBSuper) is being done in entirely new circumstances. If you don't like it, try giving it another shot and rewatch the three episodes we've got in a row; give it some time, think about it, put it into perspective, your opinion might change and you might just come to accept DBSuper the way it's meant to be accepted.
As far as the dialogue goes, taking into account that this is an almost sentence-by-sentence retelling of the BoG movie, what exactly did you expect? I assume you didn't like BoG either, or that you were heavily disappointed at having the movie's events retold as an arc in an entirely new series.
This, DBSuper, and indeed BoG and Fukaktsu no F, should in no way be considered to be being given anything close to the "C treatment". You need to calm down and understand that the degree of drama and violence we've had throughout the last arcs in DB and the entirety of DBZ will no longer be present here; that shouldn't mean, however, that there is no place for extremely good character development, background and interactions. This is 2015, not the 80's or the 90's. If that's your worry, be sure at least that we'll get to some more serious stuff and mind-boggling fights pretty soon (sooner than you might think).
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
VintageSaiyan wrote:
So close to giving up on Super. Animation is piss poor not to mention the dialogue, story, etc. is straight garbage. I don't know how y'all aren't raising hell with Toei and AK at this point. The manga sucks too but definitely not as bad as the series.
It's really sad (and extremely frustrating) to see a heavy hitter like Dragonball get the C treatment.
I guess it's pointless to make another speech on how we need to view the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball which we've been undergoing in the last few years - which led to another full-fledged series after 18 years (!) - to you.
I don't need to know how to "view the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball". I'm well aware of whats going on - another cash grab.
Dragonball is not just about the animation's quality. Throughout DB and DBZ, there were more than 10 teams of animators behind the episodes, working and delivering the episodes on an alternate basis. Some of them were horribly designed/animated, the others were absolutely fantastic. The newest animation (Kai's opening and closing, Episode of Bardock, the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and now DBSuper) is being done in entirely new circumstances. If you don't like it, try giving it another shot and rewatch the three episodes we've got in a row; give it some, think about it, put it into perspective, your opinion might change and you might just come to accept DBSuper the way it's meant to be accepted.
How is it meant to be accepted? It's uninspired and lazy. It's the C-treatment. Look at what UFOtable did with the Fate Stay remake and come back to me. And for the record, I can always get by shitty animation if everything else is on point. But it's not, in fact, it's worse.
This, DBSuper, and indeed BoG and Fukaktsu no F, should in no way be considered to be being given anything close to the "C treatment". You need to calm down and understand that the degree of drama and violence we've had throughout the last arcs in DB and the entirety of DBZ will no longer be present here; that shouldn't mean, however, that there is no much for extremely good character development, background and interactions. This is 2015, not the 80's or the 90's. If that's your worry, be sure at least that we'll get to some more serious stuff and mind-boggling fights pretty soon (sooner than you might think).
What does it being 2015 have to do with anything? Yeah it's not the 90's - but I'm also not seven years old and unfortunately not part of the new target audience.
Neither am I, but I'm taking the movies/specials they've been creating, and now DBSuper, with open arms because I realize the extremely high potential some of the concepts they've been introducing have. Of course it doesn't compare to the old DB and DBZ arcs, characters and events. I've been saying that's untouchable stuff for a long time and on more than one occasion. I like drama, seriousness, blood and guts, violent fights, I'm over 30 years of age and I grew with Dragonball my entire childhood, adolescence and, indeed, life. However, I'm not just taking DBSuper or BoG or Fukkatsu no F and throwing them to the garbage the way you seem to be doing or close to be doing, and I'll never do it. I WOULD do it, even being officially Dragonball, if they happened to present us with some horribly-animated, plot-lacking moronic series with no degree of seriousness or respect towards Dragonball's untouchable history at all, but that's not what's happening and that's not what will be happening in the future. Consider Toriyama is involved again this time around. That alone should guarantee the quality of the series, at least on some aspects (for you and for every other Dragonball fan).
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Regarding animation, throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, my favorite design was that of, for the sake of example, episodes 142 of DB, 4 of DBZ, 31 of DBZ, 81 of DBZ, 103 of DBZ, 278 of DBZ AND the one of episodes 118 of DB, 146 of DB, 28 of DBZ, 34 of DBZ and 64 of DBZ. The worst animation was that of episodes 144 of DB, 6 of DBZ, 33 of DBZ, 51 of DBZ, 94 of DBZ, 121 of DBZ, 126 of DBZ or 158 of DBZ. This is just to name a few and for the sake of examples.
Another piece of extremely good animation was that of episode 142 in DBZ (Piccolo vs Cell). Piccolo's power-up on that episode is pretty much absolutely fucking fantastic animation-wise. You can see that team of animators in episode 164 of DBZ again, for that matter. When Mirai no Trunks has a clash with Cell the scene looks absolutely fantastic yet again.
Some other animations in episodes are either badly-drawn but good for the pace/velocity of a battle or was well-drawn but lacked a lot of movement, for example.
There are NUMEROUS other animation teams behind DB and DBZ, most of them of pretty high quality. None of this applies or compares to the animation they've been using in the recent movies/specials, Kai's opening/interval/closing and DBSuper. It's an entirely different concept.
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Sorry to cut your discussion in half and go back to the main topic of the thread, but there's something I'd like to share with you and possibly get your opinions on.
I usually avoid discussing or listing power levels, either of my own creation or of others', but this time I'd like to focus exactly and only on that.
I'm going to divide the list of power levels by major arc, movies and specials, and then present either a top 10 or top 20 of all-time fighters. I'm going to include SOME of the movies in the top 10/20 (but not GT), even though they're "what-if" scenarios and cannot be considered to be a direct canon continuation of the series' timeline.
I'm not going to include the figures (either in the Scouter's measuring units or in Kilis, or in any other measuring unit), as from the end of the Freeza arc on we don't possess any official information and can only guess.
Sorry again in anticipation for how long or large the post will look like, but it's preferable to do it this way than to divide it between several different ones, and I really want to include everything you'll be seeing here.
So, here we go:
From strongest to weakest:
Piccolo Daimao arc:
1 - Goku (after drinking Sacred Water)
2 - Piccolo Daimao (young)
3 - Piccolo Daimao (old)
4 - Drum
5 - Goku (before drinking Sacred Water)
6 - Tenshinhan
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Tambourine
9 - Average Piccolo Daimao son
10 - Cymbal
11 - Muten Roshi (old)
12 - Mutaito-sama
Piccolo Jr. arc:
1 - Goku (without weighted clothing)
2 - Piccolo
3 - Kami
4 - Mr. Popo
5 - Tenshinhan
6 - Krillin
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Yamcha
9 - Tao Pai Pai
Saiya-jin arc:
1 - Vegeta (Oozaru)
2 - Goku Kaio-Ken x4
3 - Goku Kaio-Ken x3
4 - Vegeta
5 - Goku Kaio-Ken x2
6 - Goku Kaio-Ken x1
7 - Gohan (Oozaru)
8 - Goku (base against Nappa)
9 - Goku (suppressed Ki against Nappa)
10 - Nappa
11 - Gohan (when performing Masenko against Nappa)
12 - Piccolo (at his strongest against Nappa)
13 - Tenshinhan (when performing Kikoho against Nappa)
14 - Kaiou-sama
15 - Average low-class Saiya-jin
16 - Enma Daiou
17 - Piccolo (when performing second Makankosappo against Raditz)
18 - Yamcha (when performing Kamehameha against Saibaiman)
19 - Krillin (at his strongest against Saibaimen)
20 - Piccolo (when performing first Makankosappo against Raditz)
21 - Gohan (enraged against Raditz)
22 - Piccolo (against Saibaimen)
23 - Raditz
24 - Saibaimen
25 - Krillin (suppressed Ki against Saibaimen)
26 - Gohan (against Nappa)
27 - Goku (when performing Kamehameha against Raditz)
28 - Gohan (semi-enraged inside the capsule)
29 - Chaozu (against Nappa)
30 - Goku (without weighted clothing against Raditz)
31 - Piccolo (without weighted clothing against Raditz)
32 - Goku (with weighted clothing against Raditz)
33 - Goku (with weighted clothing against Raditz)
Freeza arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - Freeza 100%
3 - Freeza 70%
4 - Freeza 50%
5 - Goku Kaio-Ken x20 (against Freeza)
6 - Freeza 33%
7 - Goku Kaio-Ken x10 (against Freeza)
7 - Freeza (in his third form)
8 - Freeza (in his second form)
9 - Vegeta (after last Zenkai)
10 - Piccolo (after fusion with Nail)
11 - Freeza (in his first form)
12 - Vegeta (against Jeice)
13 - Goku (base against Freeza)
14 - Goku Kaio-Ken x3 (against Ginyu)
15 - Goku Kaio-Ken x2 (against Ginyu)
16 - Ginyu
17 - Goku Kaio-Ken x1 (against Ginyu)
18 - Goku (base against Jeice and Burter)
19 - Jeice
20 - Burter
21 - Nail
22 - Piccolo (after training with Kaiou-sama)
23 - Recoome
24 - Vegeta (against Recoome)
25 - Zarbon (transformed)
26 - Vegeta (against Kiwi and Dodoria)
27 - Zarbon
28 - Dodoria
29 - Gohan (against Recoome)
30 - Kiwi
31 - Gohan (after power-unlocking by Saichorou-sama)
32 - Krillin (after power-unlocking by Saichorou-sama)
33 - Goku (suppressed Ki against Jeice and Burter)
34 - Average warrior-type Namek-sei-jin
35 - Krillin (when arriving on Namek)
36 - Gohan (when arriving on Namek)
37 - Average warrior-type Namek-sei-jin (suppressed Ki)
38 - Muuri
Jinzouningen & Cell arcs:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
2 - Cell (in his Perfect form after receiving Zenkai)
3 - Cell (in his Perfect form at full power against Gohan)
4 - Cell (in his Perfect form)
5 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan
7 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Trunks
8 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
9 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks
10 - Cell (in his second form)
11 - Piccolo (at the Cell Games)
12 - Cell (in his first form after absorbing millions of humans)
13 - #16
14 - Piccolo (after fusing with Kami)
15 - #17
16 - #18
17 - Cell Juniors
18 - Cell (in his first form)
19 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
20 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against #19)
21 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Trunks)
22 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
23 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
24 - King Cold
25 - Freeza
26 - Piccolo (against Dr. Gero)
27 - Dr. Gero
28 - Gohan (before turning SSJ)
29 - #19
30 - Tenshinhan
31 - Krillin
32 - Yamcha
Majin Buu arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Vegitto
2 - Vegitto (base)
3 - Super Buu (with Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (with Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu
6 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Majin Buu (after absorbing the strongest of the Kaioshin)
9 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
10 - Super Buu (with Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
11 - Super Buu
12 - Evil Buu
13 - Majin Buu (in his fat form)
14 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
15 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
16 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
17 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
18 - Dabura
19 - Kaioshin
20 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
21 - Piccolo
22 - Paiku-han
23 - #18
24 - Kibito
25 - Gotenks
26 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
27 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
Movie 1:
1 - Gohan
2 - Garlic Jr. (transformed)
3 - Garlic Jr.
3 - Goku (without weighted clothing)
4 - Piccolo (without weighted clothing)
5 - Goku (with weighted clothing)
6 - Piccolo (with weighted clothing)
7 - Kami
8 - Krillin
Movie 3:
1 - Tullece (after eating fruit of the tree)
2 - Goku Kaio-Ken x10
3 - Gohan (Oozaru)
4 - Goku Kaio-Ken x4
5 - Tullece
6 - Goku Kaio-Ken x3
7 - Goku Kaio-Ken x2
8 - Piccolo
9 - Goku Kaio-Ken x1
10 - Goku (base)
11 - Gohan
12 - Average member of Tullece' Crusher Corps
13 - Tenshinhan
14 - Krillin
15 - Yamcha
16 - Chaozu
Movie 4:
1 - Gigi Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - Slug
3 - Goku Kaio-Ken x4
4 - Goku (base)
5 - Piccolo
6 - Gohan
7 - 4 main Slug's henchmen
8 - Krillin
Movie 5:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - Cooler (in his fifth form)
3 - Cooler (in his fourth form)
4 - Goku Kaio-Ken x20
5 - Goku Kaio-Ken x10
6 - Piccolo
7 - Goku (base)
8 - Sauzaa
9 - Neiz
10 - Doore
11 - Gohan
12 - Krillin
Movie 6:
1 - Metal Cooler(s)
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Piccolo
5 - Gohan
6 - Krillin
Movie 7:
1 - Super #13
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
5 - #13
6 - Piccolo
7 - Gohan
8 - #15
9 - #14
10 - Krillin
Movie 8:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Brolly
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
5 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
6 - Piccolo
7 - Krillin
8 - King Vegeta
9 - Brolly (at birth)
10 - Paragas
11 - Goku (at birth)
Movie 9:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
2 - Bojack
3 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan
4 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
5 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks
6 - Piccolo
7 - 4 Bojack's henchmen
8 - Tenshinhan
9 - Krillin
10 - Yamcha
Movie 10:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Brolly
2 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
3 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
4 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
5 - Krillin
6 - Brolly (base)
Movie 11:
1- Super Saiya-jin Full Power Bio Brolly
2 - #18
3 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
4 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
5 - Krillin
6 - Bio Brolly (base)
Movie 12:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Gogeta
2 - Janenba
3 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
4 - Ultimate Gohan
5 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
7 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
8 - Paiku-han
9 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
10 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
11 - Freeza
Movie 13:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
2 - Ultimate Gohan
3 - Hildegarn
4 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
5 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
7 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
8 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
OVA Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin:
1 - Hatchiyakku
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
5 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
6 - Cooler
7 - Freeza
8 - Piccolo
9 - Slug
10 - Tullece
Bardock Special:
1 - Freeza
2 - Bardock (Oozaru)
3 - Toma (Oozaru)
4 - Other members of Bardock's team (Oozaru)
5 - Zarbon
6 - Dodoria
7 - Bardock
8 - Vegeta (as a child)
9 - Nappa
10 - Toma
11 - Elite Freeza soldiers
12 - Average Kanassa fighters
13 - Goku (at birth)
Trunks Special:
1 - #17
2 - #18
3 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks (after Gohan's death)
4 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
5 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks (for the first time)
Movie 14:
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with power of all other SSJ's)
5 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
6 - Ultimate Gohan
7 - Majin Buu
8 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
9 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
10 - Kibitoshin
11 - Piccolo
12 - #18
13 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Freeza)
14 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
15 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
16 - Freeza (flashback)
17 - Tenshinhan
18 - Krillin
19 - King Vegeta
20 - Vegeta (as a child)
Movie 15:
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Goku (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
7 - Vegeta (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
8 - Freeza (in his fourth form after training)
9 - Freeza (in his first form after training)
10 - Ultimate Gohan
11 - Piccolo
12 - #18
13 - Freeza (in his mechanized form)
14 - Freeza (in his first form)
15 - Tenshinhan
16 - Sorbet
17 - Tagoma
18 - Shisami
19 - Krillin
20 - Muten Roshi
Since DBSuper is going to basically retell the BoG and Fukkatsu no F movies pretty much in the same circumstances although at a different timing, I've chosen not to include it here, as it would basically be an amalgamation of the Movie 14 and Movie 15 ones.
All-time overall Top 20:
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
7 - Goku (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
8 - Vegeta (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
9 - Super Saiya-jin Vegitto
9 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with power of all other SSJ's)
10 - Vegitto
11 - Super Saiya-jin Gogeta
12 - Super Buu (with Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
13 - Super Buu (with Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
14 - Kid Buu
15 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
16 - Ultimate Gohan
17 - Majin Buu (after absorbing the strongest of the Kaioshin)
18 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
19 - Super Buu (with Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
20 - Super Buu
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Doctor. wrote:
Golden Freeza is superior to both SSGSSs when he's at full power, both Goku and Freeza admit that.
Yes, but I've deliberately chosen to put him below both SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta because of the time restraints he experiences when using the form, which eventually cause him to lose to both of them.
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I'm still having a hard time whenever I think about the decision to retell BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs within DBSuper.
Between 1997 and 2008 we had no new Dragonball material, and then, boom!, the 2008 special, Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, which eventually led to the first full-fledged Dragonball series in 18 years.
I can imagine Toriyama reasoning: "ok, we've managed to do an exceedingly good job with the characters and events portrayed in BoG and we dedicated an entire movie to the resurrection of Dragonball's most charismatic villain, and it's time to go further and actually generate a series of episodes. However, just 2 years after BoG came out and a few months after Fukkatsu no F did, we're going to basically make the events portrayed in these movies non-canon and have them retold pretty much in the same exact circumstances although at a different timing."
I can see and understand why some fans are disappointed by the fact that we'll be dedicating some 20 or 25 episodes to the retelling of these two movies as arcs, taking into account the fact that we've already been introduced to Beerus and his character, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
I'm not even complaining or criticizing it anymore - I never did, actually -, I'm just still a little astonished at the fact that in such a short amount of time they suddenly decided to basically take BoG and Fukkatsu no F and have them reshaped into full-fledged arcs. I guess the idea behind it was to have Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God introduced WITHIN the series' episodes as opposed to have the episodes refer to the movies, which a large chunk of people and even fans might not have even seen at this point. Basically, Beerus and Whis just HAD to be there and they've been pretty much entirely accepted with open arms by the Dragonball fandom and family in general, and they decided to have them properly (re)introduced in the series itself, from beginning to end, avoiding any reference to any of the two movies, which have "earned" their place in "non-canonness" right along with the other 13 DBZ movies and GT.
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precita wrote:
I'm actually disappointed Beerus is being portrayed as evil because he feels too similar to Freeza now. Just blowing up planets whenever he wants and killing everyone while he lives in luxury. I liked how in Battle of Gods he seemed more neutral. He was still destroying planets but didn't seem as evil about it, if that makes any sense.
He's reminding me a bit too much of Freeza.
Although there are certain similarities, as you pointed out - I myself expressed the automatic association I made between Beerus' and Freeza's apparent delight in watching planets blow up during and immediately after watching the end of the second episode -, as you also pointed out, he came off as entirely neutral throughout BoG and especially Fukkatsu no F (he actually refused to even intervene in a battle between the pinnacle of good, Goku, and the pinnacle of evil, Freeza, with the Earth and its inhabitants future and lives at stake). If we had never seen BoG or if it had never seen the light of day, we would most likely be mysteriously anticipating a confrontation with a somewhat evil antagonist, Beerus, taking into account most of the scenes we've already seen in these three first episodes of DBSuper. We'll have to see just how closely they'll follow his interactions with Goku, Vegeta and the others while crashing Bulma's party in the following episodes, though, after already witnessing that they're pretty much following Beerus' and Whis' interactions on an almost sentence-by-sentence basis. It could very well be that they keep his neutrality/indifference towards pretty much anything except the stuff which makes him either angry/furious (being denied food) or delighted (food and, to some degree, fighting strong opponents who could somehwat present a challenge to him).
His lines in Fukkatsu no F where he says "a fight is a fight", "I don't care" and especially "I'm no one's ally" illustrate the fact that he can't be deemed an ally to good nor to evil. He can't be seen as a villain, but rather as an antagonist, at most. The experience we had in BoG pretty much kills the excitement for the upcoming battle between Beerus and Goku, Vegeta and the others on Earth, but perhaps he'll be shown to act in a somewhat more serious manner, but he'll never act in an "evil" way, quite simply because he's not "evil".
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irreality wrote:
As a former lifelong myopic (yay, LASIK!), why *wouldn't* Gohan wear his glasses all the time? It isn't a nerd thing. If you can't see, you put on glasses. People like seeing 100% of the time. Unless one's prescription is really low (like around 1 diopter), people who use glasses don't normally decide, hmm, this is a day I want to see clearly.
I can see him being diagnosed later in life. A lot of people realize they have myopia from trying to read the blackboard. If he was homeschooled and was busy saving the world for a lot of his life, he might have missed early childhood diagnostics and just not realized he can't focus on fine details that are far away until starting school in earnest. I would guess he isn't super blind, but has enough of a need for glasses full time (e.g. +2 diopters).
Also, his grandfather needs glasses. Since the need for glasses is partly genetic, it makes sense that he might need glasses, too.
If there's a physical need for Gohan to wear glasses, then sure, go right ahead. However, what most fans who complain about it are talking about is the fact that it makes him look like a nerdy little weakling, when in fact he was supposed to be the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him - despite, as a non-pure Saiya-jin, he lacks the true maniacal thirst for battle. Quite in fact, Gohan was supposed or at least fully intended to become the series' new protagonist after the Cell arc, as can be seen and proven by the opening for the Majin Buu arc, replacing Goku, which was an entirely failed move (in fact, it's again Goku who saves the day in the Majin Buu arc and slaughters Kid Buu, although with the help of many others). Gohan's potential is almost immeasurable, he's had several instances throughout the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs in which he lost it and his true fighting power became apparent and obvious. It was betting on that that Goku had him step up for him against Cell in the Cell Games, considering the "losing-it = out of control anger"+ extreme training combo. Goku was right and Gohan became not only the first one to reach the stage of Super Saiya-jin 2, the one and only SSJ stage which really goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin" (as stated numerous times by Goku, Mirai no Trunks and Vegeta) and what was by then the strongest fighter in the series, which was a trend that was supposed to be continued and followed in the Majin Buu arc.
The way Gohan has been treated - apart from his clothes and his aforementioned glasses and nerdy look - in recent movies, which goes against his absolutely massive power against Perfect Cell and Super Buu, is what his fans and Dragonball fans in general complain about, I believe. He didn't even fight or land a single blow in the 2008 special, he was beaten to a pulp by Beerus in less than 10 seconds in BoG (although everyone except Super Saiya-jin God Goku and fully-enraged Vegeta were dealt with pretty much in the same way, despite their power), but, worst of all, he was knocked out with a single punch by first-form Freeza, despite the latter's massive training and power development, when he was supposed to be close to/on par with Goku and especially Vegeta in terms of progression in power level/Super Saiya-jin stages. We've had enough of Gohan becoming a "scholar", we want him to reach his full potential and beat the shit out of his opponents in a badass atmosphere just like he did in the Cell Games and against Super Buu. After he had reached those two peaks, he shouldn't have become so quickly an "I'm not fighting, I'd rather study" guy; not only that, as if it wasn't enough: he actually not only does not want to fight or train, despite his massive potential, he's not getting any decent or significant roles even as far as training or character development goes. He's supposed to be a badass unbeatable martial artist, not a scholar who goes around buying books and studying all the time while getting married to Videl.
In short, it's not just his nerdy look and especially his lack of desire to fight and train despite his enormous fighting potential, it's the entire lack of significant appearances and actions they've been putting him in.
I can put myself in the skin of a Gohan fan and a criticizer of their depiction of him in the recent movies and now in DBSuper, but I am not nor have I ever been a huge Gohan fan, so I'm not too bothered about that.
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Doctor. wrote:
Just because the circumstances were understandable, that still doesn't make Gohan any less of a psycho.
I wouldn't call Gohan a psycho, even in the numerous instances where he loses it during the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs and starts bombing villains in an out-of-control rage (Raditz, Nappa, Freeza, Cell Juniors, Cell). At most, these episodes could be called "psychotic", not "psychopathic". Those are two close words, but actually with totally different meanings.
Gohan is pretty much an even purer version of Goku. Goku is 100% good, but Gohan is not only 100% good, he's well-mannered when addressing others and lacks any sort of violent instincts typical of the Saiya-jin race when it comes to training/killing/fighting. I mean, he goes as far as talking to Cell saying he doesn't want to kill him despite Cell being a psychopathic genocidal monster, instead of just fighting him. He's probably and arguably the most good-hearted fighter there is in the entire series. Goku, on the other hand, and as a gifted and pure Saiya-jin, is a fighting maniac with an obsession for eating, disrespecting the official titles of even the highest deities, and a maniacal desire to fight all the time.
I think the whole debate on Gohan's depiction in the recent movies/specials and DBSuper will by now have reached its conclusion. They're matching his typical non-pure-Saiya-jin lack of desire to train, fight and become stronger than his previous stages and than anyone else, unlike Goku or Vegeta, to his well-mannered, "I'd like to be a renowned scholar", "I'll only fight if a menacing villain shows up" routine. However, the very fact that he skips training all the time (something which is pointed out by Goku and especially Vegeta in Babidi's ship) basically drops the enormous and huge amount of Ki he possesses. A particular fighter's level of Ki is not supposed to be something static, it's supposed to be worked and trained upon, otherwise it will slowly and gradually slip away, and that's exactly what's been happening to Gohan. However, we may understand why he lost some power between the Cell Games and the early Majin Buu arc, even as a Super Saiya-jin 2, given that we're talking about a 7 year gap (!), but in this instance it's been only 6 months. We still aren't sure exactly when the Freeza arc in DBSuper is going to take place, or even if he's going to be knocked out with a simple, single blow by first-from Freeza just like he was in the movie, but if it does indeed happen it just goes to show that there was a massive drop in his power. I mean, by the time he's finished with the Rou Kaioshin ritual and goes back to Earth to face Super Buu, he not only surpassed his badass teenage Super Saiya-jin 2 form with which he thrashed the Cell Juniors and Cell himself, becoming the most powerful fighter on Earth, above Cell and even Goku, he surpassed both Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku, Dabura and even the fat form of Majin Buu. He owns and dominates Super Buu with ease and was at that time, I believe, supposed to have achieved his ultimate stage, meaning the intention was to have him basically become the strongest fighter there ever was, which was a failed move because 2 episodes later he's already getting his ass kicked by Super Buu's new form(s) after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo. Remember that the way the Japanese specialized media refer to the level of Ki he possesses as a martial artist when facing Super Buu is "Saikyou no Senshi", as in, "Strongest Warrior", or "Best Warrior", or "Ultimate Warrior" (the expression is used to refer to some other fighters throughout DBZ, but never with the intention to mean he's just basically become invincible). His Ultimate stage was supposed to be unsurpassable, and yet it gets surpassed by an ever-growing number of new stages (by Super Buu, Goku and Vegeta) and other fighters (Beerus, Whis, Freeza).
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Bullza wrote:
I was wondering yesterday if Golden Freeza were to fight SSGSS Goku or Vegeta, blood lusted and without any interruptions would he be able to kill them before his power dropped significantly below them and had no chance of winning. I'd say probably not.
And you put a lot of time effort into that list MaGyunia. Maybe Karin should be in the Piccolo Daimao list too, don't know if you forget about him.
No, I didn't forget about him. I just didn't want to make the list even longer by including every single fighter who happened to show up in each arc. I could have included Karin in Piccolo Daimao's and Piccolo Jr's arcs, the farmer with the shotgun in the Saiya-jin arc, Gohan's power level of 1 when measured by Raditz's Scouter in the Saiya-jin saga, King Vegeta, Toma and Bardock in the Freeza arc, etc., etc., but I tried to be as inclusive as possible while at the same time leaving out a few fighters, otherwise the list would grow even longer than it did, and I didn't want to occupy the entire page. :D
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Restricting the discussion to Gohan's attitude towards Cell after turning Super Saiya-jin 2, we need to take into account the fact that Gohan's isn't really used to feel rage in a controlled manner like he did throughout the fight and his thrashing of the Cell Juniors and then Cell. All of his instances of losing it in the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs were very temporary "psychotic" episodes (a "psychosis" clinically refers to the act of losing control over one's actions, to the point of, most of the times, not even remembering having performed them, which is Gohan's case on numerous occasions when he flips out), instead of being "permanently" angry at someone for a prolonged period of time. It's said that the state of Super Saiya-jin increases a Saiya-jin's violent and volatile temper, but not only is Gohan not a pure Saiya-jin, he's a well-mannered, well-spoken peace-loving person. Even as a Super Saiya-jin Full Power (although this one seems to quieten the violent tendencies of the SSJ state, as it's a "mastered" and naturalized version of it) he displays no traits which he didn't as the good old soft child/teenage Gohan.
After losing it after #16 gets destroyed to pieces, the resulting Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation made him not only expand on the fury he was already starting to feel growing up inside of him as the Cell Juniors tortured his friends and family before him, it also made him a little cocky and arrogant, which is a total contrast with the way he had always acted, and something we could only attribute to Gohan's absolute inexperience at being the strongest fighter there is with the full knowledge of it, while at the same time feeling furious at the one responsible for the suffering of his loved ones. We saw this slight bit of cockiness again when he once more became what was supposed to be at that time the "Saikyou no Senshi" against Super Buu. After thrashing him, and throughout his display of absolute superiority, he's smiling and smirking all the time and then goes as far as calling his opponent a "retard". We could reason that the more powerful Gohan KNOWS he is, the more of a tendency he gets to become arrogant about it.
Gohan goes beyond Goku in terms of goodness. Goku is a fighting maniac with no manners, Gohan is just as purely good-hearted, but he's also polite, loves animals and protects them, loves people and protects them, has never hurt anybody who wasn't utterly evil and ruthless and doesn't even want anger-trigging activities such as training or fighting, instead becoming a peace-loving scholar.
The way they're treating him, he not only does not want to partake in fighting or training, he's actually not getting any significant decent dialogue or interaction, and this is not after 7 years of idleness, it's just 6 months after he became one of the most powerful fighters the Universe had ever seen. I think they're pushing him to the sidelines on a rather deliberate fashion. They very deliberately chose to get rid of Gohan as a main fighter (replacing him with Vegeta, the real co-protagonist of the series along with Goku, who eventually surpasses him at some point in DBSuper just like he did at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F). The old days in the early Majin Buu arc where they intended to have Gohan become Goku's successor as the series' protagonist are gone, and were indeed gone after it was clear the formula wouldn't work. He did have his time to shine against Super Buu, but just two episodes later he's utterly surpassed and defeated again, only to watch as Goku once again saves the day along with the help of many others.
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Alex9196 wrote:
@rereboy
But why do you think it is more reasonable to send a massmurderer for example to prison, instead of killing him off. How is that more reasonable? That means you either send him there for decades until he dies or you send him there for a certain period of time, let him out and run the risk of him killing people again.
I dont know the laws of your country but I guess there is no death-sentence, so there must be prison, right?
So like I said why do you think it is more reasonable?
Prison by itself is a medieval-like way of dealing with people who need to be removed from society and pay for their crimes. In no way does it improve the convict's personality or produce any good for society on the outside. It's just the most usual form of punishment the world could come to (by restricting their movements and thus preventing them from committing even more crimes), one which hasn't improved as the centuries go by. But I'm not going to get any deeper into this discussion, it would eventually take me to mankind's utter shortcomings as a species and especially religion, which is probably the thing I hate most in the history of humanity.
However, I'll say that just killing someone who was deliberately responsible for the torture and death of a number of people is a little short as a punishment. Death is the state of non-life and non-existence. Is that really a punishment for most people? A large chunk of humanity doesn't want to exist (look at the suicide rates on some countries). If I had to choose, I would go for the "a life for a life" philosophy. If you torture, rape and kill 1 person, the same should be done to you. If you torture, rape and kill 10, you should have it happen to you 10 times. And so on. Killing by itself, as a method of punishment, has a degree of effectiveness which really depends a lot on the circumstances, as it's the mere act of ending someone's existence in this world.
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rereboy wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
In no way does it improve the convict's personality or produce any good for society on the outside.
Completely, factually wrong.
Ever been to jail? I did. All it did was make me even more bitter and angry towards society and increased my levels of sociopathy. Absolutely nothing good came out of it. Simply restricting my freedom didn't improve neither me nor the victims of the crimes nor society in general.
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Rereboy, who said or hinted that I was a liberal or against dictatorial regimes? For all you know, I could be a sympathizer with the Nazis or with the most oppressive Communist states. Maybe liberalism isn't the best system either, it has proven to have many faults and shortcomings throughout the XX and XXI Centuries.
Could we get back to Dragonball, though? :D
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rereboy wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Ever been to jail? I did. All it did was make me even more bitter and angry towards society and increased my levels of sociopathy. Absolutely nothing good came out of it. Simply restricting my freedom didn't improve neither me nor the victims of the crimes nor society in general.
I'm sorry that you had a hard time, but not everybody shares your experience. Just like there's plenty of people who get nothing good from prison, there's plenty of people who do. Also, in the kind of system you proposed, where criminals receive 10 times the punishment or worse, things would have been far worse for you so I don't see how that would be better.
Well, it really depends on the type of crime(s) that landed you in prison in the first place. I "suffered" what I had to suffer and "paid" for what I had to pay, but not in the right place nor in the right circumstances. Besides, even if it would mean I would suffer more as a separate entity or individual, I would still prefer a system in which you get retribution for hurting others much in the same way, degree and volume as the suffering you caused on helpless victims. If I committed crimes, I need to pay them, not necessarily for the good of society, but ALSO because of it (if possible). This isn't a thread about my life or, in fact, about humankind's shortcomings in terms of delivering punishment, though. If we dug any deeper you would most likely (or surely) find that I have rather extreme views on some of society's most touchy subjects, so that's another reason not to go down that road.
Let's get back to Dragonball, come on. :D
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VegettoEX wrote:
If your conversation is not about episode three of Dragon Ball Super, please take it elsewhere.
I wasn't the one who started the deviation to this real-word/punishment/prison/mass murderers discussion, but I acknowledge that I've taken part of it at some point as well. I'm sorry about that. I did recommend we got back to Dragonball twice, though.
Sorry about the deviation, VegettoEX.
Perhaps it would be a wise decision to generate a thread for the fourth episode of DBSuper at this point, even though we won't be getting a fourth episode this weekend as we did in the past 3 weekends.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
All of your posts are essays, MaGyunia. O.O
But yeah, I can see why people dislike Gohan with glasses on. I definitely don't like the design or see a reason for giving him them. However, it would be sort of cool if he paralleled Superman in the sense of taking his glasses off when he's ready to shed off the nerdy persona and get serious. He technically already does that in F and GT, but usually proceeds to get his ass handed to him, which is not what I have in mind.
Sorry about that, it's not just here. I have a tendency to overwrite and leave absolutely no detail out in my writings when expressing my points and views. I can't get rid of it, unfortunately. I just hope that whenever I write what you referred to as "essays" the readers go through the entire thing and not skip parts of it because of how long they are.
I very rarely reply with single sentences or with just two or three lines and I won't be changing the style.
We're 3 episodes in in DBSuper and we've been basically being (re)introduced to the family/friend interactions between the major characters/protagonists from DBZ along with mysterious scenes featuring Beerus and Whis. Given the names of the upcoming two episodes and now that things look like they're going to get hotter, with Beerus crashing Bulma's birthday party and confront Goku, Vegeta and the others much in the same way he did in BoG, how do you think they'll make the transition between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc within DBSuper, regarding time-skips and the number of episodes? Could Champa be introduced in the Freeza arc already, or just after that, leading up to/during the 6th Universe arc?
I've never said this here (or anywhere, for that matter), but the whole concept of Champa and his attendant slightly disappointed me (especially Champa's appearance). If there is some rivalry between Beerus and Champa, or indeed between each of the duos, I can't help but cheer for Beerus to win and be stronger. We've already welcomed Beerus as part of the Dragonball family after being exposed to him in BoG (especially) and Fukkatsu no F. We have virtually no info on Champa except from the way he looks and that image in which he has a brief exchange with Beerus. There has been some debate on whether he's a friendly rival of Beerus or a little more than that. I can foresee that the most likely scenario is that he'll become one of the main characters in the 6th Universe arc and not anytime before that. Again, we can only speculate at this point.
Taking the villains introduced in the 4 DB movies, the 13 DBZ movies, GT and Episode of Bardock out, all of which have to be considered non-canon, it's also interesting to point out that the only major villain in each of the main arcs throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ have not only had their cameos here and there, they are actually getting their major screen time, ones more than the others, in DBSuper (Piccolo Daimao arc - Piccolo Daimao, who has a son/offspring/reincarnation in Piccolo, Piccolo Jr. arc - Piccolo, Saiya-jin arc - Vegeta, Freeza arc - Freeza, Jinzouningen & Cell arcs - Cell, Majin Buu arc - Majin Buu). The only major villain I was referring to is obviously Cell. He provides the mid-term between the Saiya-jin/Freeza arcs and the Majin Buu arc. We can't really consider #17 and #18 as major villains within their own Jinzouningen arc, except in their alternate timeline in future, where they are indeed evil, a scenario which is explored in the Trunks Special. As a result of all of this and taking all of this into account, Cell, despite his fantastic background and conceptual design, is the only major villain who ends up not having the slightest bit of screen-time and protagonism by the time of the recent movies and DBSuper. I'm a Cell fan, and that bothers me to some degree. Piccolo is there and he went through a rather quick process of turning good by the Freeza/Jinzouningen arc, Vegeta had ENORMOUS potential as a character and just had to be there throughout the entirety of DBZ with a very gradual and incremental change of heart (much slower than that of Piccolo's), Freeza has had numerous cameos, is the most charismatic villain in all of Dragonball and has just had an entire movie dedicated to his resurrection and Majin Buu is present not only in his good, fat form, among the good guys, but also when it comes to the fact that DBSuper is happening just 6 months after they ended a titanic battle with his numerous versions, with the eventual defeat of Kid Buu, so that event is pretty much fresh in their minds and spirits.
I like Cell more than I do ANY of the versions of Majin Buu, and to some degree and in certain aspects I go as far as preferring Cell to Freeza (particularly in Cell's perfect form). However, I can't really see any chance for him to make a reappearance at any point in DBSuper. We're basically just going to get the first family-focused episodes, the Beerus arc with his confrontation with Goku and the others, Goku reaching the Super Saiya-jin God stage somehow, Vegeta and Goku going off to train with Whis, then the Freeza arc with his resurrection, training and coming to Earth to show off his much improved self in terms of power, eventually getting killed by either Goku or Vegeta in their newly acquired Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages, and THEN we'll move on to truly entirely new material which none of us have ever seen before. The concept of Super Dragon Balls and their exploration and search outside Earth may automatically lead some fans to link it to the concept of Goku's, Trunks' and Pan's adventures in early GT, but let's not get into another tedious DBSuper vs GT debate. I'd rather have them focused not on the Dragon Balls themselves (which ceased to be the central element of the series after the Freeza arc, as neither Dr. Gero, #17, #18, Cell, Babidi or Majin Buu express any interest in collecting them, although they do come in handy after the main villain is taken care of to undo the damage done throughout the arc(s)), but on violent fights at least close to what we've seen in the best fights throughout DB and DBZ.
On that regard, and proceeding with the trend to generate lists, here goes my list of best one-on-one fights in Dragonball, from best to worst:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku vs Freeza (episode 96 to episode 105)
2 - Goku vs Vegeta (episode 30 to episode 33)
3 - Piccolo vs #17 (episode 148 to episode 149)
4 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku vs Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (episode 230 to episode 233)
5 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku vs Cell (episode 177 to episode 180)
6 - Piccolo vs Cell (episode 142 to episode 143) - I chose this one particularly because of what I already mentioned in some other thread about the fantastic animation they provided us with in episode 142, which was repeated in episode 164 (Mirai no Trunks vs Perfect Cell)
I could go on, but I don't want to make another exceedingly extensive list after having done one along those lines just one day ago.
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Nice to see that the list I created generated so many replies. It's also a good thing to have a debate over it with agreeing and disagreeing positions.
I won't reply to all of the rebukes to my list, although I could do so at least on the majority of them.
Keep on with your thoughts, though, I might reply in detail sooner or later to all of you.
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Please stop with the Gohan outfit/nerd-look/decrease in power/portrayal discussion. VegettoEX was supposed to already have put an end to the conversation on that topic, which is something I agree with. Every single angle on Gohan's appearance and evolution in power in DBZ, GT and DBSuper has been thoroughly discussed already. No further definitive conclusions will be reached, mostly due to the fact that they've been reached already.
Let's get back to the main topic of the thread, episode 3 of DBSuper.
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LordCrumb wrote:
How come the voice actor for King Kai doesn't appear to be very enthusiastic about his performance? The animation has King waiving his arms, yelling with a big open mouth, but the voice actor just reads his lines without any emphasis..
While it's true that he sounds like he's just basically reading the plot when he says his lines as Kaiou-sama, if you really paid enough attention to DBZ in its entirety, this voice actor - who happens to be the same doing the voice of the narrator and Babidi, among others, in the original Japanese version - always had a tendency to "undertone" his voice acting when performing Kaiou-sama, although not to the degree we're seeing in DBSuper and indeed BoG. I don't really see a problem here and there's nothing to worry about. His announcements of the DBSuper's episode's names are just as colorful and enthusiastic as they were all the way throughout DB and DBZ.
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LordCrumb wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
I agree. I loved the OVA's portrayal of Videl and Gohan. I like the idea of the latter being a coach too.
I don't like Buu's personality either. He seems too demanding and rude. I don't like how Mr. Satan is scared of him. I figured he'd be tamed by Satan and taught to behave. They should be best friends, not spineless father and spoiled son. It almost feels like Buu will kill him at anytime.
Totally agree on this. Boo seemed like a nice person at the end of Z, and was a friend to Mr Satan. It feels sad that Mr Satan is now just there to try and keep him calm. Boo is not evil anymore.. sure, he can still get angry, but Satan taught him not to get mad again.
Although I did crack up big time in Ep1 when Boo came out in front of the cameras, and Satan stared to shit himself. But yeah, totally different boo.
Also agree on Videl.. she shouldn't be pandering to Gohan.. she's a fighter for crying out loud.
I've always thought that having Majin Buu around, even if it's the good version of him, could lead to eventual trouble somehow (which is pretty much the very reason Vegeta wants to vanquish him right after Kid Buu is defeated in episode 287, stating exactly the danger he still could represent as the main reason to get rid of him). This isn't the fat Majin Buu we saw first becoming friends with Mr. Satan during the Majin Buu arc, as he had the pure-evil part inside of him, which he doesn't anymore, but you never know what could happen with the whole way his transformations/mergers/separations work. I highly doubt they'll pick on Majin Buu's danger of splitting again and create trouble in DBSuper, as by now he's just another one of the good guys and they'll focus on the newest/most important characters/fighters.
I honestly don't see that much of a difference between DBSuper's or BoG's Majin Buu's attitude and what we could expect from such an utterly alien magically-created eating maniac. What did you expect? That he followed Mr. Satan's every command just because they created a strong bond and friendship between the two of them?
As for Videl, it's basically the same process they're applying - deliberately or not - to Gohan. They hastily turned them into a harmless couple when just 6 months before Videl was a badass crime fighter with a bad temper and Gohan had achieved a level of power which was supposed to have made him the strongest fighter there ever was, thrashing even Super Buu and surpassing his previous Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, Vegeta, Gotenks and the fat version of Majin Buu. I think they're doing it deliberately. I'm not a huge fan Gohan nor have I ever been, so it doesn't really bother me too much. They basically replaced Gohan with Vegeta in terms of protagonism when you compare the Majin Buu arc with the recent movies/specials and DBSuper, matching Vegeta's level of power to his degree of importance in the series. I just fail to see the need to push Gohan to the sidelines so much. We're stuck with that and from now on Gohan and Videl will be just a couple, and Gohan will be fighting only when absolutely necessary. I was a little relieved when I first saw the opening for DBSuper, which features Gohan in his Ultimate form powering up. That might be a hint that they haven't totally forgotten about him and the enormous power he's supposed to have, and eventually he'll have his time to shine in one of DBSuper's arcs. Unlike Goku or Vegeta, who are pure Saiya-jins, Gohan took his role as family man as an "opportunity" to become a harmless "I'll only fight if needed", "I'd rather study endlessly than train seriously to develop and surpass my father and Vegeta and any other fighter" next-to-useless character.
I can sympathize with hardcore Gohan fans given the treatment he's been receiving in the latest movies and DBSuper. If you're a Gohan fan to the degree to which I'm a fan of Piccolo or Vegeta, it's understandable. I would be utterly revolted if they did anything even close to this to my favorite characters. They already had Vegeta's strongest state be surpassed by numerous fighters in the Jinzouningen and Majin Buu arcs, and they already had Piccolo pretty much removed from the fighting arena in the entirety of the Majin Buu arc, and I was far from pleased. Thankfully, they've at least partially corrected those mistakes.
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dbgtFO wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I honestly don't see that much of a difference between DBSuper's or BoG's Majin Buu's attitude and what we could expect from such an utterly alien magically-created eating maniac. What did you expect? That he followed Mr. Satan's every command just because they created a strong bond and friendship between the two of them?
No, you're right about Majin Buu not being that different from BoG, but my complaint has always been about how he's different from the Buu Arc, rather than any differences between BoG and Super. Super is just a retelling of BoG, so no Wonder they would keep the characters the same as they were in that movie.
The problem is that Mr. Buu basically did do whatever Mr. Satan told him, when they first met, he even offered up his precious candy to him and had no qualms about helping Mr. Satan win the 3 tournaments between the Buu arc and the epilouge. Even when Goku asked him to rig the tournament draws, he complied without any hint of malice.
But now in BoG and Super, because Toriyama just needed a fall guy apparently, he's turned him into a rude, obnoxious bubblegum man, who wouldn't even give up a single pudding cup, even when asked nicely.
I never saw, even in the aftermath of the Majin Buu/Kid Buu battle, that the fat version of Majin Buu would become what could be only be described as a friendly slave to Mr. Satan. He's not that childish or manipulable. I assume that his instances of presenting a childish and well-mannered behavior before BoG and DBSuper came about after much work by Mr. Satan. Mr. Satan's way to deal with him has probably ALWAYS been to play on the things Majin Buu wants most (namely food) to get what he wants from him, and that can't be seen as taking advantage of him, it's just what you would expect from a relationship between a normal human and what had been before the most feared and powerful villain in the history of the Universe. Any friendly relationship between anybody and ANY version of Majin Buu, including this good-hearted one, would necessarily have its awkward moments, whether in BoG and DBSuper or off-screen during the Majin Buu arc.
Yet again, I'm not a huge fan of the fat version of Majin Buu either, much less of Mr. Satan, so even this particular aspect doesn't bother me that much.
I'm honestly much more preoccupied with the way they were going to revitalize and deal with characters like Tenshinhan and especially Vegeta and Piccolo, and I can say I'm quite relieved to see the way they've been going around it. I can't express my satisfaction to see Vegeta finally reach Kakarotto's level of power by Fukkatsu no F - which will be eventually repeated in DBSuper - and, after so many years, beat the shit out of Freeza, while making his way to the top 10 of most powerful warriors in the entire Universe. As for Piccolo, he was supposed to be the strongest Z fighter for a few episodes after he fused with Kami and pretty much held the dim circumstances (#17, #18, #16, Cell) on his own while the Saiya-jin were off training. He fought second-form Freeza toe-to-toe. He killed numerous henchmen in the movies and managed to both get his revenge on his (then) arch-rival Goku and kill Raditz in a violent manner at the same time. As a Saiya-jin, Vegeta's potential to overcome his previous stages and level of Ki is most likely infinite, and taking into account his character he'll continue to train and fight obsessively to reach further and further stages and levels, but in the case of Piccolo I believe he has pretty much already reached his full potential and won't become any stronger than he was by the time of the Cell Games and throughout the Majin Buu arc (a shame he didn't get any fighting opportunities in the saga apart from cutting a defenseless Babidi in half, though, and was stuck training the bothersome and out-of-control kids).
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Super Vegetto wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Golden Freeza is superior to both SSGSSs when he's at full power, both Goku and Freeza admit that.
Yes, but I've deliberately chosen to put him below both SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta because of the time restraints he experiences when using the form, which eventually cause him to lose to both of them.
Makes no sense for placing him under SSGSSjins,,,why would you even put Grade 3 Trunks above his Grade 2 if eventually he would loose the fight due to lack of speed ?
Because, unlike the Golden Freeza vs Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks in his Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai stage, despite his drastic lack of speed, still managed to give Perfect Cell a much harder time than Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, who is above Trunks in his Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage.
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Daimo-Rukiri wrote:
Zombie wrote:
Ok I'm going to give my full thoughts:
16.- How are SSJ Goten and Trunks weaker than freaking SSJ Freeza arc Goku...??
Super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, just because they're Super Saiyans doesn't necessarily mean they can beat full power Freeza.
I'm kinda curious if whis is Omnipotent in that there is a creator for each Universe versus one creator.
Zombie, you're implying with no evidence whatsoever that both kid Trunks and kid Goten are both stronger than Super Saiya-jin Goku when he fights Freeza on Namek. I ask you: why? Even before Goku became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin on Namek, he had overcome numerous barriers, was close to death more than once, was constantly fighting and underwent insane training in the spaceship while on his way to Namek. Trunks and Goten both turned Super Saiya-jin on a rather natural basis, given the genes received from their respective gifted pure-Saiya-jin fathers. There really is no point to go at it other than resorting to pure speculation, but it's just my opinion that Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek is stronger than both Super Saiya-jin Trunks and Super Saiya-jin Goten. You're entitled to disagree on this one and pretty much on every single one, that was the whole purpose of the creation of the list I generated: to get your opinions.
It was made in a rush and I did put some effort on it, I didn't really spend 10 hours doing it. Of course it will have flaws or, in the very least, contain debatable rankings here and there. :P
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Don't tell me that by now, although you haven't seen the movie, after visiting this forum (and potentially others) you didn't come across ANYONE who mentioned the slightest detail on Fukkatsu no F. Was I really the first one to tell you that Vegeta beats Freeza in Fukkatsu no F?
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Saiga wrote:
Actually there is plenty of evidence that Goten and Trunks are stronger than Goku was on Namek.
[*]They have the features of "full power" Super Saiyans. Not just physically, but they can also control their power.
[*]Goten spars evenly with Gohan, who is FAR stronger than Namek arc Goku. Gohan can be seen sweating from the effort.
[*]Trunks can land a punch on Vegeta and take a punch in return.
[*]Their power freaks 18 out even when suppressed, and she chooses not to fight them directly. Trunks holds back his blast so he doesn't kill her, and it is made clear that Goten and Trunks know how strong she is.
[*]When Vegeta dies and Gohan is presumed dead, Piccolo calls them "Earth's last hope" without knowing about fusion.
[*]Their full power shocks Piccolo.
[*]The guidebooks have various comments that put them at least on par with 18, ranging all the way up to Gohan's level.
Yes, Goku had gone through a lot when he first became a Super Saiyan... but he also went through a lot when he won the 23rd Budokai, and yet Gohan was able to surpass that level a four years old, with a year of training. The half-breed children are really strong, and were never that far behind the others.
Some of your points are acceptable, but #18 fights the two of them at the same time (as in, 1 against 2) and manages to hold her own, while back in the Jinzouningen arc she was just slightly above Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who in turn was only slightly above Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek.
Piccolo (and Vegeta, and Gohan, for that matter) are astonished not exactly at their power, but at the fact that they're able to turn Super Saiya-jin at such a young age.
When they're in the gravity room early in the Majin Buu arc training for the upcoming Tenkaichi Budokai, If Vegeta had been training/fighting to his fullest, Trunks wouldn't even come close to him and would defeated Trunks in a matter of seconds.
Being able to control their power and keep their fighting instincts under control is one feature of the Super Saiya-jin Full Power stage, sure, but, apart from that, on what basis do you say they're on that stage, or, even better, are you suggesting they're as strong or nearly as strong as Goku and Gohan as Super Saiya-jin Full Power against Cell?
Gohan is training with a kid who can become Super Saiya-jin. He's not in his Super Saiya-jin 2 form, most likely in his SSJ Full Power state. Someone as strong as a Super Saiya-jin, even as a kid, could present him with problems, taking into account his lack of training and resulting decrease in terms of reflexes, agility, power and velocity. Hence the trouble he had and the sweat you mentioned.
In fact, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha and even Chaozu show up stronger against the Saiya-jin than Goku was when he fought and beat Piccolo in the Piccolo Jr. arc. Of course half-breed Saiya-jin have a natural talent or ability to be massively powerful. Even in the first episodes of DBZ. on the planet he just conquered along with Nappa, Vegeta speculates that the offspring of a Saiya-jin with a non-Saiya-jin could produce a better result than a pure Saiya-jin. That shouldn't mean Goten and Trunks possess that ability to the same degree Gohan does, and/or that it's an inevitable and automatic thing. Natural abilities vs training: which one provides the fighter with the most power? If we went by that, Goku would be a joke from the beginning. He was born with a fighting power of 2, and by Saiya-jin standards even his power level when he fought Piccolo Daimao or Piccolo was laughable, and yet he went on to surpass not even Nappa and Vegeta, and actually overcame even that through intense and massive training to become stronger than the Ginyu Tokusentai, and then went on to overcome Freeza, and then #17 and #18, then Cell, then Gohan in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, then Majin Buu at least in his fat form, and more recently ANY version of Super Buu, Gotenks or Vegitto. I'm not defending Goku because I'm a huge fan of his. I actually prefer Vegeta and Piccolo, for that matter. However, if there's an instance in which I admire Goku (and there's more than one, obviously), that's when he took revenge on Freeza by being the first one to become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin to once again save the day. The kids haven't really accomplished anything, either on their own or indeed fused, and if we took into account GT, they're pretty much like Gohan, skipping training all the time and neglecting to develop and build up on their massive power.
Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jin, are the only ones willing to overcome their limits and reach new stages of power, and they do it successfully, despite a few instances here and there when Gohan went beyond Vegeta. That was already/will soon be fixed, though.
Can you really imagine a fight between a full-powered angry fighting-machine Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek against each of those two brats? Sorry, but I'll keep my position and I'll still hold SSJ Goku on Namek stronger than each of them (not to mention his improvements later on, against Mirai no Trunks, #19 and all the subsequent SSJ stages, obviously).
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Yeah, it might be just the emotions talking, I don't know. I simply can't accept that the epic circumstances in which Goku transformed into Super Saiya-jin against Freeza are going to be overcome by a duo of brats. I'm not saying I hate them or anything, far from it.
Yes, Gohan would destroy Goku if he went on an insane rampage like he did against Raditz, but Gohan took an enormous amount of time to develop his full potential and finally cease from being a cray baby and overcome Goku, Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks, Piccolo, #17, #18 and #16. Even taking into account the fact that he's just a kid and has been so for the entirety of DBZ until the end of the Cell Games, his full potential took some tome to come about. He had to be put to the sidelines and be coached by Goku to do so, he wasn't at first even sure he would be able to do it.
Doesn't really matter, though. In the current circumstances, Goku and Vegeta will very soon take the spotlight and become not only the main protagonists of the series but also the strongest "good guys" in Dragonball, which is just fitting considering Gohan's lack of interest in training and resulting decrease in power. Of course, the same goes for Goten and Trunks, who are and never were anywhere near Goku, Vegeta or Gohan and will never be.
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You need to take into account that I did that exercise in less than 10 minutes, so of course there's bound to be imperfections/inconsistencies or in the very least debatable rankings.
However, instead of pointing out the rankings you disagree with, why don't you highlight the ones you agree with as well? Or even better, why don't you go through the same process and generate a list of your own? No animosity here towards any of you, just a plain suggestion. :)
But yeah, overall it's good to have this many replies to my initial intent to generate a power-level list by arc/movie/special, with so many agreeing and disagreeing positions. That was actually expectable and the very point of the initiative.
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Ajay wrote:
Really? Maybe I'm just frequenting threads with considerate members then. Outside of threads specifically about the film, I've seen a lot of people being pretty coy about plot details. Unless I'm just noticing them less having seen the film. I waited with Battle of Gods and felt like I was seeing spoilers everywhere. This time, not so much.
Ah well! Carry on. My mistake.
For what it's worth, I'm sorry to have spoiled part of your experience with Fukkatsu no F. And I do mean that sincerely. I'll try to be more careful next time, although it seems a little weird to me that someone would deem it as far as "illegal" to watch an entire new Dragonball movie before it comes out in a format in which you can purchase it, and that you managed to be able to wait for months until being able to watch the movie(s) in the proper setting you specified. I myself, along with the majority of hardcore DBZ fans, devour any single piece of new info/visual material on DBZ the second I lay my eyes/hands on it. Doesn't mean I didn't purchase the material afterwards, though.
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dbgtFO wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Yeah, Mr. Boo slapped Mr. Satan out of the way in the fight against Kid Boo, I wouldn't exactly call him a good boy either.
No he didn't(or was that filler?) If you're referring to the scene I think you are, it was Pure Buu who slapped Mr. Satan with his headpiece, not Mr. Buu.
The fat version of Majin Buu did in fact slap Mr. Satan, but not because he was mad at him or anything, it was just because he was both pissed off at Kid Buu and because he wanted Mr. Satan to get out of the way.
Even though Majin Buu has officially become part of the "team" and fights for the sake of good, after having expelled all traces of evil inside of him after all the transformations/separations he went through throughout the Majin Buu arc (especially the Fusion saga), he remains and will always remain a magically-created alien mysterious character with strange tendencies which make him utterly unpredictable and hard to control, especially when it comes to food. It's Mr. Satan's job to keep him under control, as his best friend and after the close friendly relationship they somehow developed, while at the same time refraining from treating him like a slave; he does care about him too much to do that. In the early stage of his interaction with Majin Buu he even goes as far as refraining from taking advantage of the picture he took to get people to believe he defeated Majin Buu, out of respect for both himself, the people and Majin Buu himself. Majin Buu is even harder to fit into society than Piccolo is. Everyone is scared of Piccolo's appearance, even after ceasing to remember him from his old days as the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao many years (more than a decade) after those events. His clothes and his alias "Ma Junior" (used, in fact, for that very reason in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai by Piccolo, helps in that department, though). However, I highly doubt Majin Buu will ever cause any further trouble with the way his transformations/mergers/separations work, they're not going to have him cause trouble again, he's just not that fundamental a character anymore, not even as a fighter, despite what can be called his massive power, to most standards.
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Ajay wrote:
You're replying to the wrong person there, but I'm sure he appreciates your words.
My mistake, my post was obviously directed to LordCrumb and not at you. :)
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Marco Polo wrote:
For the millionth time, can you stop double-posting?
Sure. Everyone complaints about my double-posting and the volume of my writings, so perhaps it would be a good idea to refrain from posting altogether. Would that make you happy?
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Zombie wrote:
Stop double posting.
Second time in a matter of minutes somebody complaints about it.
I guess it's time to refrain from posting at all, I don't feel I'm very welcome here. :thumbup:
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Not to worry.
I'll just stop posting altogether. Have fun. :P
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sintzu wrote:
Subject: Super Episode 3 (19 July 2015)
MaGyunia wrote:
Not to worry.
I'll just stop posting altogether. Have fun. :P
So the only one who actually adds to the topics he comments on is going to stop posting because of some idiots who are probably just jealous of his writing ?
If I'll be getting that type of disgraceful comments, then yeah, I better just stop writing and have the discussions pretty much die with less and less content and empty contributions by those "idiots". I don't like to have the feeling I'm being envied or to receive critics like that.
I won't change the way I write, the content of what I write, the volume of my writing or the degree of detail to which I go when I express my carefully-thought concepts, so if a number of users don't like it or are jealous of it, I'll have to either keep them to myself or take them somewhere else.
I appreciate your words of support, though.
I'm sure they realize that they can't come close to my level of writing and are jealous of it, and that it doesn't take me too long to refrain from sharing anything with them given their attitude.
Give it some days. After the discussions die down and nothing of any substance comes up after I stop(ped) writing my points, maybe they'll wonder if it was a good idea to "force" me to make this decision, and they'll regret it.
After a few days of next-to-inactivity on the main topics of the forum, maybe I'll get back and get the whole discussions going on at full steam again. But I won't post anything for a while, sorry about that.
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In fact, it should really be the other way around. What I see mostly in the threads is a bunch of empty concepts written in two or three lines, with no substance to them.
Then a guy comes along and start writing large texts with lots of carefully-thought concepts, generates lists, creates discussions out of nowhere out of his own decision, and out of jealousy or some other issue, they've had enough of that and start making stupid complaints about anything they can get their hands on.
Like I said, give it a few days. At least there's not going to be a fourth episode to discuss this weekend, so I won't be losing any meaningful discussions for a few days. I might come back just before the discussion on the fourth episode starts. If they don't appreciate my way of writing, my double-posts or the volume of my posts, well then... fuck them, really. :P
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This user hasn't replied to me once in a well-mannered way once and all of a sudden came up with this comment, which I regard as rude and most likely coming out of pure jealousy for the fact that I've been one of the most active members of the forum when it comes to generating discussions , lists and keeping and developing the conversations in a well-written manner and in a polite way on a permanent basis ever since I was first admitted to the forum.
I have my own style of writing, which includes carefully-conceived thoughts and concepts, and I like to develop my points in an extremely detailed manner. I don't expect everyone to read what has already been deemed as my "essays", but it's not against the rules to post the way I usually do (with high volumes of text and large amounts of content and points on the topics being discussed).
In fact, there's a part on your Forum Rules which specifically refers to this aspect:
"a simple “Yes” or “I agree”, while having a perfectly fine sentiment behind them, do not actually add anything substantial to the on-going conversations. Just like a single word is not an appropriate response, an image in and of itself is not an appropriate response. No matter what the subject matter, we simply ask that our members bring as much substance to the conversation as possible in as well-written a way as possible."
The way I see it, most of the users taking part in the conversations add little or next-to-nothing with their contributions consisting of one or two lines devoid of any deep significance, which add nothing to the conversation and in no way help develop points and ideas, which is what I've been trying to fight all this time.
I've chosen not to post anymore in the forum until any action is taken, since I'm not about to change the way I write or how much I write. It's not my problem that my contributions happen to annoy a few users for potential reasons which I'll keep to myself as a theory.
Thank you.
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VegettoEX wrote:
TripleRach wrote:
As for the length of his posts, I happen to find it very refreshing. It's not hurting anyone. But if you don't want to read them, you don't have to. Either scroll past them manually, or try the "Add foe" function.
Just adding on to this as another moderator/administrator:
Absolutely. This is what we're encouraging here. We want your detailed thoughts, comments, and opinions.
Well, looks like I came out on top after all.
Although I'll refrain from posting two posts in a row, if possible, I most certainly won't change the way I write nor the volume of that which I write just because somebody was annoyed (if that was actually the reason, I've got other theories).
I like to write a lot in order to get every single detail on my thoughts on a particular point across. If that usually, or almost always, results in what something someone has called an "essay", you have the right to either read it or not.
It's certainly better than constant replies consisting of one or two lines with absolutely no content of any value to the conversation, which is the case I've been seeing in some of the users.
I view my large posts and efforts to get the conversations moving forward with as much content as commendable, not something to "freak out" about.
I may be rather recent to Kanzenshuu, but I've been a hardcore Dragonball fan all my life and I've produced DBZ-related material for over a decade now.
Thank you TripleRach, VegettoEX and the user who took it upon himself to send me a private message on this subject.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
If they don't appreciate my way of writing, my double-posts or the volume of my posts, well then... fuck them, really. :P
I understand where you're coming from but the best way to fight back is to just keep doing what you're doing and let them be the ones who stop posting.
Don't worry, one user has commended me on the length of my posts and on my participation in the forum altogether and then VegettoEX seconded her.
I guess they were put in their place and I ended up winning.
:lol:
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
For the record, I have absolutely no issue with the volume of your posts, MaGyunia. I was just making an observation before, and later explaining why other users might have commented on it. Hopefully, I did not offend by the "essay" comment. It's just, well, copying and pasting one of your posts on Word tells me it has over 500 words, which is the minimum requirement for many undergrad college papers. xD
Whatever animosity I demonstrated wasn't directed towards you at all. In fact, I found it amusing when you referred to my usual volume of posting as "essays". :D It's other types of attitudes generated by users with nothing to bring to the discussion(s) but empty sentences that I was telling off.
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[quote="Ajay"]Hey,
Hope those fools didn't get you too down. The new movie brought in a lot of awful members, but hopefully they haven't deterred you too much. Your posts are great, and totally in the spirit of this website. As someone who prefers to write a few 500-1000 word contributions in place of one-sentence offerings, it's refreshing to see someone else make the same effort.
As I said in my initial response, it's usually best just to report the message and move along. The moderation team will almost definitely have your back if you're not actively engaging anyone in conflict. No point wasting your words on imbeciles.
Looking forward to reading your thoughts on the upcoming episodes! :thumbup:
Ajay[/quote]
I appreciate your words. Sintzu also sent me two similar private messages.
Don't worry, the whole thing is done with. The moderators and VegettoEX pretty much commended my type/length of posts, which is an indirect rebuke of those two guys who all of a sudden chose to pick on whatever they could to try to get to me.
I don't really get down, I tend to get angry, especially after, in a matter of minutes, I receive two comments from users who criticized for what I would assume has to be pure jealousy for the fact that they're unable to produce any significant comments on anything or contribute to the development of points and interesting conversations on the threads, which is not only what I've been doing, it's also my style and a little bit of an obsession, to be honest with you.
On another note, I'm not criticizing anyone or anything, but sometimes it does get on my nerves to see people - in or outside Kanzenshuu - skipping parts of a "large" writing simply because there's "too much" to read. The way I see it, the more you have to contribute, and the more you write in a polite manner, the better.
It's a total contrast with what I see in a large percentage of users. They don't advance with the conversations and make no effort to generate deeper thoughts and concepts on the issues being discussed, either because they lack the ability to do so (laziness or intellectual shortcomings) or because all they have to put forth is one or two sentences or completely empty ramblings, but that's just me.
I'll refrain from double-posting, though, but I'll never change the way I write, the volume of my writings or the degree of detail to which I go when expressing different well-thought concepts that I really want to share with the community. That's the whole purpose of being here, and of the forum itself, I believe.
I checked the Forum Rules word-by-word yesterday after the incident, found something which pretty much substantiated my position, reported both of their attacks on me and they were scolded for it while I was pretty much commended by the moderators and VegettoEx.
I have a number of ideas flying in my mind, so I'll definitely generate more "essays", as the other guy put it - he's not a bad, jealous guy like the others, he's just lazy to read the entire thing - pretty soon.
I did report their messages towards me, as I mentioned before, but I've always had the philosophy that you should also defend yourself and make personally sure that someone who attacks you for no reason gets put in their place by your own hand as well.
Thanks again.
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Ok, so after putting some time apart and some effort, I decided to watch the last episodes of DBZ in a row over and over to get the same exact feeling the creators had when pondering on how and when to start off with the 2008 special, BoG and now DBSuper. Not even going to take into account or consider GT, Toriyama himself said it was a side-story much in the same lines the 4 DB Movies, the 13 DBZ Movies, Episode of Bardock and now the 2008 special, BoG anf Fukkatsu no F are, and I certainly won't go into details on GT's quality or shortcomings.
The 10 year-skip between episodes 288 and 289 gave us 10 years to explore, but it also presented the potential problem of making it so that whatever happens in either new movies or DBSuper will eventually and inevitablly lead to that (even for those who like the ending, knowing how the epilogue is going to be can be disappointing).
I must say that this was a rather positive experience, as I'm now more prepared to accept that the retelling of BoG in the form of the Beerus arc and the retelling of Fukkatsu no F as the Freeza arc in DBSuper can happen (about 10 years) before the introduction of Uub, and I can even go as far as to postulate theories on why Goku, Vegeta and the others (especially Gohan, who has the same degree of "non-fighting nerdness" in himself, present themselves the way they do in that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the way Goku fights Uub the way he does). Either it came about as pure chance or they put some effort and thought on being as close to those episodes made back in 1996 (19 years ago (!)), which makes me think that the chances of rectonning the end of DBZ are getting dimmer and dimmer, regardless of the need to do it depending on what happens in DBSuper (and when).
Obviously, this was in no way anticipated by Toriyama or anyone else back in 1996, but we could now add two and two and theorize that having fought Uub in his base form without going Super Saiya-jin (neither Full Power nor 2, nor God nor SSJGSSJG), Goku was at that time at the stage of being able to use the power and abilities of Super Saiya-jin God even without undergoing the actual physical transformation (something we saw in both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, an incorporation that Vegeta is himself shown to be capable of underdoing in the latter one). If we really put some effort on it, we could theorize that the atmosphere present in those last 3 episodes of DBZ could make it somewhat easier to accept that between the defeat of Kid Buu and that, the following events took place:
- Gohan and Videl got married
- Goku works as a farmer but eventually goes to train at Kaiou-sama's planet
- Beerus awakens and starts destroying planets randomly
- Beerus and Whis search for the Super Saiya-jin God
- Beerus fights Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and beats him to a pulp
- Beerus crashed Bulma's birthday party, knocks pretty much every fighter out
- Goku somehow (and this is where the main doubt regarding the Beerus' arc resides) attains the stage of Super Saiya-jin God and has a somewhat even fight with Beerus
- Beerus leaves, but Vegeta and Goku either express interest in being trained under Whis or it's Whis himself who suggests it to them
- Vegeta achieves the stage of Super Saiya-jin God (it's been debated a few days ago whether Vegeta would at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and now at some point in DBSuper, become, or at least become able to turn into a Super Saiya-jin 3 before reaching SSJG)
- Both Goku and Vegeta "master" the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, incorporate its power, abilities and advantages and decide to go one step further and develop a new stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, whose characteristics could still be subject to some debate, but we'll get to that at a later point.
- Freeza is resurrected, trains for 4 months, achieves an enormous power-up and a new transformation, putting him on par with the likes of SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta.
- Freeza is defeated and killed either by Goku, just like in Fukkatsu no F, or by Vegeta.
- Whatever the hell happens in the 6th Universe arc (it would all be speculation, as we have no official info on it apart from the search for Super Dragon Balls and the introduction of extremely powerful antagonists/villains, against whom Goku and Vegeta, along with the Beerus/Whis duo, will be the main protagonists).
- Many years later (the exact number depending on when each event and arc takes place in DBSuper, which we still have to see), the last Tenkaichi Budokai in DBZ is held and Kid Buu's reincarnation, Uub, is introduced, displaying massive potential, while Goku leaves off to his village to train him (at this point, if my theory is correct, Vegeta has obviously far surpassed everyone - including Ultimate Gohan, Vegitto and any version of Majin Buu - except Goku, Beerus, Whis and whatever new extremely powerful characters will be presented throughout the 6th Universe arc in DBSuper.
We could only speculate on exactly how Champa and his attendant will be introduced, so I obviously didn't include it here, but my best guess is that he'll only make his appearance after the Freeza arc, in the "preparation" for the 6th Universe arc (he could be the Hakaishin of that Universe, it's a plausible scenario at this point).
Of course, there could still be a retcon and some sort of time-skip or time modifications which would make things even harder to comprehend and distinguish as far as the timeline is concerned, but I honestly believe they won't recton those last 3 episodes of DBZ at this point, regardless of how much I personally would like it to be "erased" from "canonness" or not.
(Final note on yesterday's episode: I'm not going to apologize a single time to anyone for the length either of this post, of any of my numerous previous posts or any further ones. I haven't disrespected anyone nor do intend to, and it's not really my problem that you have an issue with what even the moderators of the website themselves deemed as commendable and to be encouraged: writing as much as possible in a well-written, respectful and polite manner and expanding on/generating/contributing to discussions on the topics of each thread, instead of replying with virtually no content and empty sentences (it's actually in the Forum Rules). If you're unwilling or incapable of doing that, that's not my problem. I'll keep on writing just the way I did before and you can either choose not to read it partially or entirely, but save your jealousy for another person and take it somewhere else. I thank the moderators, VegettoEX and the ones who took it upon themselves to send me private messages on the subject, I appreciate those words, but I also feel that whenever you're attacked you should deal with the ones who attacked you directly by yourself. I hope the message comes across and puts a definitive stop to the issues created only and entirely by others. My way of writing is not to be criticized, it's actually praised and worthy of commendment, and Kanzenshuu can count on me to continue writing just the same volume of "essays" I always did in the future in order to contribute to encouraging and developing interesting and detailed points and conversations on DBSuper as a series and on Dragonball as a Universe we're all supposed to love, some more than others).
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ffxiimaniac wrote:
However, the problem of the series order still exists because of EoZ. To watch the whole story, you have to watch DB, then Z or Kai minus the last few episodes, then skip to Super, and then go back to the last few episodes of Z.
You're assuming they won't make their own version of "EoZ" in DBSuper later on though. I personally think they will. Though I don't have any proof, it's more of a "there's no proof against it" kinda thing.
We can only speculate at this point, but the fact that they had the guts to go down the road of actually retelling (and consequently "decanonizing") the events of BoG, a movie made in 2013, and Fukkatsu no F, made in 2015, only shows that the chances of a retelling (be it at a different timing or in different circumstances, or a complete change to the very core, even as far as "erasing" Uub from existence) of the last 3 episodes of DBZ could indeed happen.
Nobody saw it coming that they would either decide to start off with a new Dragonball series (although the purpose of the latest movies/specials, the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Kai and Fukkatsu no F may have served just that purpose on a deliberate manner) right after announcing and releasing a second full-fledged DBZ movie in two years (2013-2015) after so many years of inactivity between 1997 and 2008/2013. Nobody saw it coming that they would suddenly and rashly "decanonize" BoG and Fukkatsu no F and have their stories told pretty much in the same exact circumstances, with some minor changes and additions here and there, as adaptations in the form of arcs within DBSuper, after we all went through the process of accepting the Tarble special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of the series' one and only timeline, leading up to the last Tenkaichi Budokai at the end of DBZ.
The range and degree of surprising decisions they've been throwing our way makes it more than possible to retcon the end of DBZ, even going as far as erasing the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub as a character from "history". If they went this far, why not? Because it was made 19 years ago? That's not a sensible reason. The sheer passage of time and how old things are don't make them any more or less "untouchable".
Since we've got no official info nor have we seen the episodes at this point, the series' timeline could be one of the following two (excluding flashbacks, this is not a list of events in the DBZ Universe by chronological order):
Without touching the last episodes of DBZ:
Bardock Special - DB - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs - Trunks Special (alternate timeline) - Jinzouningen and Cell arcs - Movie 9 (debatable) - Majin Buu arc - First episodes of DBSuper - Beerus arc in DBSuper - Freeza arc in DBSuper - 6th Universe arc in DBSuper - last 3 episodes of DBZ
Changing the last episodes of DBZ:
Bardock Special - DB - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs - Trunks Special (alternate timeline) - Jinzouningen and Cell arcs - Movie 9 (debatable) - Majin Buu arc - First episodes of DBSuper - Beerus arc in DBSuper - Freeza arc in DBSuper - 6th Universe arc in DBSuper (and who knows what else they come up with after that as a potential ending for DBSuper and/or a follow-up for even more new material).
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The battle-packed episodes are the ones at the majority throughout DB and DBZ, and the same will likely apply to DBSuper. The battle outfits, regardless of the state they're in during/after the fights, are the ones picked to do battle. If you add these two things, you end up with the obvious conclusion that what we'll see most of time in the major (fighting) protagonists will be them in their particularly chosen battle outfits, which means Vegeta will be wearing and fighting in his Saiya-jin-based armor during at least the entirety of the Beerus arc while Goku will choose his usual clothes, putting the exceptional farming and blue/white training with the Kaiou-sama symbol on the back to the sidelines as soon as Beerus makes his appearence.
Goku's outfit throughout DB and DBZ is one of the most identifiable things about him, but it did go through a number of changes as far as symbols go and the exact color of the shirt underneath his main Doji (in late DB it was a red/black combination with the Kame symbol, it evolved to an orange/dark blue combo in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs with both the Kaiou-sama symbol on it and then, apart from his Yardrat clothes and the ones he wore for the driving license episode, from the Jinzouningen arc onwards and until the defeat of Kid Buu, the colors are the same but the symbol disappears altogether. He has regressed in the 2008 special and in BoG, namely as far as the presence of his symbol goes, and continued the trend in DBSuper. One more instance of an exception was during the Cell arc, in which he wears Saiya-jin-based armor to train with Gohan and then wears casual clothes for the 10 days leading up to the Cell Games.
Vegeta started off with royal Saiya-jin armor on top of what would be a smaller version of his Majin Buu arc outfit, and then went on to loose the cape as an adult, discarded additional parts in the first half of the Freeza saga, chose another armor against Freeza himself and went for a Saiya-jin-based armor during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, with a few exceptions in episodes where he's not fighting (his "infamous" pink shirt and yellow pants during Trunks' arrival, training in shorts for the Jinzouningen, wearing a casual yellow shirt in episode 167, and several other instances of one-time, one-episode appearences with casual wear, such as in episode 194, when Mirai no Trunks departs to the future again after the Cell Games). 7 years later he's seen wearing as much as 4 different sets of training/casual sets of clothing before and after a new Tenkaichi Budokai is announced (namely when adult Gohan visist Bulma, when he trains with Trunks, when he's on the plane to the tournament island, when Goku talks to them from the Other World), and then we have the Majin Buu outfit. He most likely picked that up just for the Tenkaichi Budokai and ended up stuck with it for the entirety of the Majin Buu arc until Kid Buu was defeated and peace returned (we see him in casual wear already in episodes 287 and 288). 10 years later he visits Goku with more casual wear, including a nice jacket, and then he wears an even more "humanized" version of a training attire for the last Tenkaichi Budokai in which Uub is introduced.
Most people would think that any movies/specials/entire series made after the Majin Buu arc and taking place after it in the timeline would have Vegeta wearing that outfit, but he too regressed to his Saiya-jin-based armor he worn throughout the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs for the 2008 special, BoG and DBSuper (after wearing the casual clothes we saw in episode 2, of course), which further suggests that the outfit he wore for the entirety of the Majin Buu arc was indeed just a one-day choice which he was stuck with for obvious reasons. His outfit in Fukkatsu no F, along with Goku's, are slight adaptations of their most notable and identifiable training/fighting outfits, even as far as design and coloring goes.
I'm not going to go in detail into the outfits worn by Gohan, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Bulma, Muten Roshi, Gyumao, Chi Chi, Videl, Trunks, Goten, etc. I might do it later.
Obviously, the clothes worn throughout the 13 Movies reflect the saga/era/timing at which the events depicted in them WOULD have taken place, with a few instances of special outfits (Goku in a suit in Movie 8, Gohan with his early Saiya-jin arc clothes in Movie 4, Gohan with his Jinzouningen arc outfit in Movie 8 and the Hatchiyakku OVA, etc.)
And yeah, it's obvious that in between any major arc in DBSuper, just like throughout DBZ, whenever there's no fighting going on at that particular time or for an extended and anticipated period of time, especially Vegeta and Gohan will go for casual wear, much in the same way we've been seeing them on numerous instances throughout all the arcs of DBZ.
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irreality wrote:
Cetra wrote:
Then I suppose his casual home outfit was not normal?
I assume it is normal for when he is being casual. :) If he is just training with Trunks maybe he just wears a shirt and sweatpants. But I think in the JSAT he mentions that the armor is formalwear? So maybe he wears it when he is feeling "serious" about training or fighting.
To be true, in Saiya-jin mentality terms, "formality" and "fighting" really go hand in hand.
You're right, irreality, but I didn't specify why he chose that particular piece of clothing for the Majin Buu arc, I just said he was stuck with it for the entirety of the saga, as in, if he knew there were going to be major battles he would most likely have chosen his most notable outfit (that of the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, the 2008 special, BoG and DBSuper) or some variation of it.
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Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Araki wrote:
Leaving aside the fact it's too soon to get August information and the copy/pasted staff, seeing those pictures they had, the ones for episodes 6-8 look fake.
Also i think since we know Champa is showing up, possibly in episode 5, and even in that first promo we've seen Beerus meeting him, there's a good chance the movie events won't be followed so closely and quickly like that.
I still think Champa was only animated for that promo everything in the promo we have seen so far, and I think he will meet Beerus post BoG as it's clear they don't meet on Earth and with Beerus is already heading to King Kai's planet/Earth so the only way they could be is after BoG stuff. They could tease Champa like the Manga did but that's all I think they'll do
They're retelling the events of BoG in the Beerus arc of DBSuper almost in a sentence-by-sentence basis, with minor changes here and there and introducing the elements at a different timing. That's all there is to it. Even Goku's fight against Beerus will take place in Kaiou-sama's planet, Goku will get beaten to a pulp just like he did in the movie and then Beerus will move on to Earth to confront the others in a context of Bulma's birthday celebration, eventually losing it, knocking everyone out and being challenged by Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God, only to leave after the fight ends.
Again, we can only speculate at this point, but I'd go as far as to say that we'll only be introduced to Champa after not only the Beerus arc but actually in fact AFTER the Freeza arc, or during it. Since we'll be getting an arc dealing with the exploration of another Universe, it's only fitting that Champa, who is most likely Beerus' Hakaishin version of the 6th (or another) Universe, will appear for the first time in that arc or at the very most in the episodes leading up to it.
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It's actually good to get a break from the routine of one new episode per week(end). Even though, just by the name of the upcoming episodes, and pretty much just plain reasoning, we know exactly what to expect in the episodes of the Beerus and Freeza arcs in DBSUper, I myself feel a degree of pressure to watch the episodes exactly at the same time in which they're airing in Japan.
It's still hard to grasp the concept of having an entire new full-fledged Dragonball series after 18 years (!). I guess we could look at the material in recent years (2008 special, Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Fukkatsu no F) as a - deliberate or not - follow-up to the REAL meat: an entire series. We could thus debate whether the period of real inactivity was between 1997 and 2008 or in fact between 1997 and 2015.
The kind of emotions we've all experienced when DBSuper debuted and those first images of Dragonball showed on Fuji TV at 9:00 in Japan (1am in my country) were one of the best experiences I've had recently, but it's obviously gradually decreasing, which is just natural and to be expected.
The only setback the lack of an episode this week represents is the fact that we won't get the storyline moving along, and a large chunk of fans are badly wanting to get these episodes retelling the exact same events (with some minor changes) of BoG "out of the way" so we come closer and closer to the real introduction of entirely new characters, concepts, stages and villains. That will only happen to the degree most fans want it in the 6th Unvierse arc. I hope they infuse at least a slighter higher degree of desperation, seriousness and drama in the circumstances in which Beerus meets Goku and the others and then when Freeza reappears and fights Goku and Vegeta, but the real mistake would be not to put that degree of seriousness and drama in the 6th Universe arc. We should all understand and accept by now that the old days of genocidal maniacal villains, blood and guts and extreme violence we witnessed and were presented with in the later stages of DB and the entirety of all arcs throughout DBZ is gone and belongs to Dragonball's untouchable history back from now long-gone 80's and 90's, but I would be slightly disappointed if they don't at least involve a number of deaths and that feeling of hopelessness/desperate hope later in DBSuper.
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Focusing only on (major) villains from the 13 Movies, my favorites have always been Tullece, Cooler, Brolly and Janenba. I've never been a fan on Tapion, myself (no more space for heroes when you've got an entire team of Saiya-jin/half-Saiya-jin hybrids/Namek-sei-jins forming the strongest set of warriors in the entire Unvierse). I can't speculate a scenario in which ANY character or stage seen only in the movies could be brought back and made canon in DBSuper, though. It's just too far-fetched a scenario.
Brolly is indeed by far the most overrated villain arising from the movies, especially when it comes to his power. Throughout the years I've seen DBZ fans going as far as estimating his power level to be close to that of Super Vegitto, which is laughable. That most likely, or almost certainly, has to do with the fact that he's a badass psychotic maniac with a number of particular physical/mental qualities which make him one of the fans' favorites. I've always looked at Cooler as a much more serious/to-the-point version of Freeza, without the whole glamour + terror surrounding the character. Even the tone of his voice, in comparison with Freeza's, gives the viewers that impression. He lacks some of the psychotic traits of Freeza but retains the same level of power (or, in fact, going a bit further than Freeza did, with a fifth brutal transformation).
The stories of the movies are in their majority weak to the point of reaching the borders of ridiculousness, but you couldn't expect much more from a set of hastily-invented stories exploring and expanding upon the concept of villains with some potential to them, which also happened to be made for commercial purposes, with a "striking while the iron is hot" mentality.
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AvatarReiko wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Brolly is indeed by far the most overrated villain arising from the movies, especially when it comes to his power. Throughout the years I've seen DBZ fans going as far as estimating his power level to be close to that of Super Vegitto, which is laughable.
Hardly. The dude one shotted an entire galaxy.
He was defeated by the combined powers of Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks, Super Saiya-jin Gohan and post-fusion Piccolo, and Movie 8 is supposed to have taken place (although it didn't) in the 10 year gap between the announcement of the Cell Games and the Cell Games themselves, which suggests that the level of power Goku and the others have is around what they have in that period. If he had been anywhere close to Super Vegitto he could never have been defeated by ANY combination of powers from the Cell Games period. He appears again in Movie 10 and is shown to surpass what would be an adult Gohan who is at that time slightly weaker as a Super Saiya-jin 2 than he was when he thrashed Cell. Both Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2 throughout the Majin Buu arc far surpass even teen Gohan's level of power (stated by Piccolo, as he watches Majin Vegeta vs fat Majin Buu), Super Saiya-jin 3 Gohan/Ultimate Gohan surpass SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta, and Super Vegitto is about twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan. Brolly is nowhere near the leagues of Vegitto, or in fact of a number of fighters throughout the Majin Buu arc. He's a badass and goes around destroying entire galaxies in bursts of psychosis with what APPEARS to be an immeasurable and invincible amount of power, but things need to be put into perspective and we have the tools to reason and compare his power. Piccolo Daimao was the incarnation of evil and a major psychotic badass without any trace of good or sanity in him and he turns out to be a weakling when compared to even the weakest fighters as early as the Saiya-jin saga.
I would estimate Super Saiya-jin Brolly (and Bio Brolly, for that matter) to be in tier of Cell in his perfect stage, before he received his Zenkai after the massive explosion and came back.
Doesn't mean I'm not a fan of him. He's pretty much the incarnation of the concept of invincibility in a villain. He doesn't want to conquer, doesn't want to rule, he can barely talk, he's an insane psychotic force of nature who happens to be the legendary Super Saiya-jin, going around breaking and destroying everything and everyone in sight and laughing maniacally after he does it, which suits me just fine when it comes to the character/personality + power level combo in a villain. I remember being a child in the 90's and - being a hardcore fan of Goku and the others, as any child/teenager was - literally crying over their inability to even hurt him.
The particular purpose to make a movie around Brolly was to explore the specific aspect of the REAL legendary Super Saiya-jin, and as a result of that Movie 8 arguably turned out to be one of the best movies from the 13 of DBZ.
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BlackCatScott wrote:
How many episodes do we think it will take to get through the Battle of Gods / Resurrection F content per arc?
It won't be much more than around 20 episodes to get through the Battle of Gods story surely?
This could be totally wrong, but we do have some instruments to try and measure how many episodes it COULD take to go through the entire retelling of the Beerus events in DBSuper. In BoG, Beerus shows up in Kaiou-sama's at the 20th minute of the extended version of the movie, which is about one fifth into it. We already know from episode 3's preview that Beerus will be on Kaiou-sama's planet in the fourth episode already. Goku turns Super Saiya-jin 3 and starts fighting Beerus in the 26th minute, and by the 27th he's knocked out. Given the title of the fifth episode of DBSuper, it's obvious that at least part of the fight will take place in that episode (and I assume it will be the whole thing, as it certainly won't take Beerus much longer than it did in the movie to KO Goku). Beerus is shown to be on Earth for the first time at the 32nd minute of the movie (probably episode 6 of the series), loses his temper in the 56th minute (a little over halfway through the movie, and most likely retold in the 7th episode of the series) and I'd bet Goku shows up to prevent Beerus from destroying the Earth right at the end of the 7th episode; in the movie, he shows up in the 65th minute. (Vegeta will lose it and attack Beerus over Bulma in that episode as well, as it happens in the 61st minute of the movie, before Goku shows up). They call Shenlong in the 68th minute, Goku tries the ritual for the first time at minute 73, a second (successful) time 3 minutes later and goes on to fight Beerus as a Super Saiya-jin God from the 78th minute until pretty much the end of the movie. We could speculate that Goku tries going/goes SSJG in episode 8, they have a major battle in episode 9 which spills over to episode 10, and it'll be over by the end of that episode. In episode 11, if it all goes exactly (or almost) the way it did in the BoG, we'll see Beerus pondering on the fight he just had, and either Champa appears in episode 12 or we'll get one or two smoother episodes leading up to the reappearance of Freeza, by episode 14 or 15. I would assume the number of episodes dedicated to the retelling of Fukkatsu no F would be around the same (10/11 episodes), so we could be moving on to entirely new material, past the retelling of the movies, by episode 23/25 of DBSuper.
Obviously, all of this is assuming that there won't be any major changes in the way Beerus interacts with Vegeta and the others on Earth, or in the way Goku achieves Super Saiya-jin God, or some unexpected surprise which introduces a totally new concept unseen in BoG.
The pace at which things are moving when compared to the timing of the movie (episodes 4 and 5 refer to events occurring one fifth into BoG, for example) would make it possible to postulate that it will never take longer than 11/12 (13, at most) episodes to get through the story of BoG, the same applying to Fukkatsu no F.
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It certainly won't take anything even close to 40 episodes to get "past" the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F. According to those speculations/calculations, we should be "done" with those two arcs by episode 23/25, at most. This isn't really SSJ Goku vs Freeza on Namek, or SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell charging a Kamehameha for an entire episode before the arc's climax and end (episode 190).
Pondering a little bit on that, it really is amazing the amount of filler material they (had to) put into DBZ as a series of episodes. It's no wonder that Kai is composed of just a little over half of the total number of original DBZ episodes. It basically means that a third to half of the material was not present in the manga, was entirely made up in a rush and stuffed into the episodes, or even entire arcs (Garlic Jr.) were just invented to give Toriyama time to develop new concepts properly.
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I haven't double posted a single time, nor do I intend to, ever since I was asked by the moderators to avoid doing so.
The reaction you're referring to on my part was in a context of a triple-sided attack on my way of posting, beyond the mere fact of double-posting, but criticizing the length of my posts, which was acknowledged (and is indeed in the Forum Rules as well) by the moderators themselves as something to be commended and encouraged, not subject to attacks. After the episode I said I would refrain from double-posting and I've been doing so ever since then, and will continue to do so. Perhaps you missed the episode in the other thread, your answer came a bit late and out of place, as the matter had been solved for a number of days now.
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Lord Beerus wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
I think the Beerus saga will be done by late August or September. We will likely won't see the whole Dragon Ball mutliverse hunt until by December by the earliest.
I imagine after the God Of Destruction/Beerus arc, we're gonna get some cool down episodes to see what the Z-Fighters get up once the battle with Beerus is over. Then after that, straight into the Resurrection F arc.
Exactly, that's what you'd expect taking into account the pattern of Dragonball. We've had that in the episodes between every major arc throughout DBZ (the episode dedicated to Krillin's proposal to Marron, the Goku/Piccolo driving license episode before the start of the Jinzouningen arc, the entire Garlic Jr. saga between the Freeza and the Jinzouningen arcs, etc., the entire Great Sayaman episodes focusing on Gohan/Videl leading up to the Tenkaichi Budokai, etc.).
If my exercise earlier today was close to what we'll actually get, I'd say that we'll be done with the Beerus arc by episode 10-12, we'll get one or two smooth episodes (pretty much along the lines of the first two family-oriented in the series) and then we'll move on to the Freeza arc, by episode 14-16 or something like that. The same would apply to the space between the Freeza arc and the 6th Universe arc, obviously.
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Blackstripe wrote:
Are they planning on making more movies in the future, I wonder?
I'd say there's a 50-50% chance of making movies WHILE DBSuper is running. It all depends on how many episodes the series will consist of, and consequently for how much time (months, years) it will run. However, after DBSuper is done with, and taking into account the fact that all of a sudden they started throwing movies and specials and new material our way beginning in 2008 after 11 years of absolute inactivity, I think it's almost certain that more movies will be made; the only question is whether the events depicted in them will be canon or not, we really can't be sure especially after they unexpectedly decided to "decanonize" both BoG and Fukkatsu no F just two years and a few months, respectively, after they were released as canon continuations of DBZ. I'm also positive that a few years from now we'll eventually get yet another series as well. Dragonball' potential is virtually limitless, it just won't end. The timing of the storyline of said future series will depend on exactly when (in Dragonball's Universe and timeline) DBSuper as a story will end, and that would eventually and inevitably lead us to the whole "retconning the last three episodes of DBZ" all over again; but I'd say let's just focus on what we have in our hands right now (for those disappointed with the pace at which we're moving on with the Beerus arc and desperately waiting for the real entirely new material, you'll just have to be patient and suck it up until the 6th Universe arc starts, but even before then there'll be PLENTY of stuff to enjoy, some of which we've already seen in the movie(s) and some of which will be totally new and unexpected).
I honestly think that although the period of inactivity between 1997 and 2008 was only partially deliberate, as Toriyama and friends needed some time off of constantly coming up with creative concepts and character backgrounds, it was also partially meant to function as a clear division between the target audience the first DB/DBZ/DBGT was directed towards back in the 80's and 90's and what could be called "Dragonball: round 2", aiming at both the old audiences who grew up with the series decades ago and reaching new ones as well, which is the stage of the process we're at right now.
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Regardless of how many episodes it will take for DBSuper to cover the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs, and the potential episodes in-between, what I'm really hoping to see - and would be frustrated if they ended up not showing it - is the off-screen events which "took place" between the two movies, namely just why they suddenly decided to revive Freeza in this particular period, Freeza's training to reach such a massive increase in the level of his power, Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God himself and his and Goku's decision to go off to train under Whis (or Whis' suggestion that they do so, if they choose to have it happen that way).
If they're deliberately making it so that the time at which the Freeza arc within DBSuper will be running matches the official release date in most countries for Fukkatsu no F, it more or less confirms these speculations and expectations.
With all the info we've got and judging by the pace at which they're moving with the Beerus arc when you compare it to the movie, and assuming they're going to apply the same formula to the Freeza arc, we can estimate with a pretty high degree of certainty that it shouldn't take more than 10-12 episodes for each of the two arcs, with one or two episodes in-between. That's just a simple formula.
I wouldn't say the chances of Tarble being (re)introduced are next to 0%, but I really don't think it's going to happen. If it did, however, it would make more sense if he appeared during the Beerus arc instead of after it, as the main point or reason for his introduction would be the fact that he could be needed to undergo the ritual for Goku to reach Super Saiya-jin God, but we'll just have to wait and see how exactly they'll get around the whole thing about Goku reaching SSJG (they could keep the ritual replacing Pan by Tarble, by reducing the number of Saiya-jin needed or they could even go for an entire change in the way the stage is reached, turning it into something that can be achieved without the help of others, through some other method - all speculation, we'll just have to wait for the episodes in the next few weeks).
Again, I can't really see them extending the combination of the Beerus and Freeza arcs for longer than 23-25 episodes, and for some fans that's already pushing it, as in, 23 to 25 episodes of retelling events which we've already been introduced to in almost the exact circumstances in BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
Much like in Kai, we may get a new opening/closing for each arc. That makes sense. But by a new opening and closing I mean a few adaptations to the images shown, not to the songs, obviously. The opening song (along with the images) for DBSuper STILL has me mesmerized. Can't get it out of my head.
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Noah wrote:
I would like to see Vegeta turning into a Super Saiyan God and how he and Goku achieve the SSJGSSJ transformation
Yeah, forgot to mention that one in the list of off-screen stuff I'd like to see which "happened" between BoG and Fukkatsu no F. I've always defended that before Vegeta achieves the same state as Goku (being able to "incorporate" the abilities and power of the Super Saiya-jin God stage even in his base form), at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F he underwent the exact same process, putting him on par with Goku in terms of power by the time they're training under Whis. However, if that wasn't enough, both Goku and Vegeta decided to improve on the previous stage and go for a new one, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and I can't wait to see both why they chose to do it (although I've got my own theories on that) and HOW they did it.
I even went as far as to speculate that at some point - either after or during the Beerus arc in DBSuper - Vegeta would ALSO become, or at least be able to become, a Super Saiya-jin 3, which would mean he would be following Goku's exact steps as far as gradual and incremental stages go, only a little bit later. However, for some reason I don't think the SSJ3 Vegeta theory is going to become a reality.
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I didn't say I thought my theory on a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta was probably not going to happen because it would be stupid or because it would be just too difficult for him to achieve it through intense training and a combination of other factors like Goku did back in the 7 year gap between the Cell arc and the Majin Buu arc, I merely postulated it because, the way I see it, Vegeta is "always one step behind Goku" (sometimes even literally in SSJ stages), but this time around it has become apparent that they're trying to put/push him to Goku's level, or close to that, which means achieving the same stages, to match the degree of co-protagonism he'll be enjoying throughout DBSuper along with Goku, as far as the good guys go; according to this view, instead of "skipping" Super Saiya-jin 3 and going from Super Saiya-jin 2 as his strongest stage directly to Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, Vegeta would first of all attain SSJ3, but, like I said, I don't think it's going to happen, for more than one reason, some of which you've actually already pointed out.
I've always viewed BOTH the Super Saiya-jin God AND the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages as rather separate transformations, arising through a totally different method and granting the Saiya-jin an entirely different set of skills and abilities, other than a massive increase in Ki. The best way to make you understand my train of thought in this regard is to tell you that in my perspective all Super Saiya-jin stages (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3) are built upon the previous one, and you can hardly skip one to reach the next one, as in, we're talking about an incremental, step-by-step buildup.
On the other hand, I've also always defended ever since I pondered on the events of BoG that the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, other than granting the Saiya-jin a set of "godly" abilities, gives him a boost in sheer power when compared to his - at that time - STRONGEST stage (in Goku's case, Super Saiya-jin 3). As a result of that, if (or rather, when) Vegeta achieves Super Saiya-jin God, in order to be as strong/almost as strong as Goku in the same stage, his previous maximum should be the same (Super Saiya-jin 3, not Super Saiya-jin 2).
This could all be wrong, it's just a theory, regardless of how much I'd like it to be true - it could very well be that the Super Saiya-jin God stage merely grants a particular Saiya-jin the degree of power Goku displays against Beerus in BoG regardless of how powerful he was to begin with. Shenlong does specify that the original Super Saiya-jin God in Planet Vegeta wiped out the Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye before his massive power drained, but we can't really place him and his SSJG transformation in any tier based on that, as any major character/fighter by the Jinzouningen arc onwards would be able to "wipe out the evil Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye" just the same with they power they had.
Discussing how exactly each SSJ stage is attain(able) is another matter and we could be here for hours. It's rather obvious that the very first Super Saiya-jin stage is reached through a powerful Saiya-jin's explosion of anger, whereas, for example, the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage Vegeta uses against Cell was attained after a year-long period of intense training, tapping into his fighting genius as well. Super Saiya-jin 2 is another matter, as Gohan achieved it through a combination of incredible hidden potential + explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta arguably lacked these circumstances and reached the stage as well.
For all we know, there could be a limit to how many transformations/stages a Saiya-jin can achieve, and SSJ3 could indeed be the very last, limit one. After that, if the Saiya-jin wants to go even further than that, then either the theory is wrong and there are further possible transformations even beyond SSJ3 (which by now has obviously rendered totally obsolete, for more than one reason), or they can go for the exponential power-up provided by the achievement of Super Saiya-jin God (and, after that, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). The Super Saiya-jin transformations, regardless of whether they're supposed to follow a "building up on the previous one" setting or not, could, for all we know, be endless.
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I didn't say I thought my theory on a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta was probably not going to happen because it would be stupid or because it would be just too difficult for him to achieve it through intense training and a combination of other factors like Goku did back in the 7 year gap between the Cell arc and the Majin Buu arc, I merely postulated it because, the way I see it, Vegeta is "always one step behind Goku" (sometimes even literally in SSJ stages), but this time around it has become apparent that they're trying to put/push him to Goku's level, or close to that, which means achieving the same stages, to match the degree of co-protagonism he'll be enjoying throughout DBSuper along with Goku, as far as the good guys go; according to this view, instead of "skipping" Super Saiya-jin 3 and going from Super Saiya-jin 2 as his strongest stage directly to Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, Vegeta would first of all attain SSJ3, but, like I said, I don't think it's going to happen, for more than one reason, some of which you've actually already pointed out.
I've always viewed BOTH the Super Saiya-jin God AND the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages as rather separate transformations, arising through a totally different method and granting the Saiya-jin an entirely different set of skills and abilities, other than a massive increase in Ki. The best way to make you understand my train of thought in this regard is to tell you that in my perspective all Super Saiya-jin stages (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3) are built upon the previous one, and you can hardly skip one to reach the next one, as in, we're talking about an incremental, step-by-step buildup.
On the other hand, I've also always defended ever since I pondered on the events of BoG that the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, other than granting the Saiya-jin a set of "godly" abilities, gives him a boost in sheer power when compared to his - at that time - STRONGEST stage (in Goku's case, Super Saiya-jin 3). As a result of that, if (or rather, when) Vegeta achieves Super Saiya-jin God, in order to be as strong/almost as strong as Goku in the same stage, his previous maximum should be the same (Super Saiya-jin 3, not Super Saiya-jin 2).
This could all be wrong, it's just a theory, regardless of how much I'd like it to be true - it could very well be that the Super Saiya-jin God stage merely grants a particular Saiya-jin the degree of power Goku displays against Beerus in BoG regardless of how powerful he was to begin with. Shenlong does specify that the original Super Saiya-jin God in Planet Vegeta wiped out the Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye before his massive power drained, but we can't really place him and his SSJG transformation in any tier based on that, as any major character/fighter by the Jinzouningen arc onwards would be able to "wipe out the evil Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye" just the same with they power they had.
Discussing how exactly each SSJ stage is attain(able) is another matter and we could be here for hours. It's rather obvious that the very first Super Saiya-jin stage is reached through a powerful Saiya-jin's explosion of anger or extreme frustration (in Goku's case, over Freeza brutally murdering Krillin; in Gohan's over his anger at having always been a spoiled brat; in Mirai no Trunks' case, over the death of Gohan; in Vegeta's case, over his utter frustration at the fact he can't overcome Kakarotto; in Bardock's case, over the deaths of his comrades and his newly-made friends in Planet Plant), whereas, for example, the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage Vegeta uses against Cell was attained after a year-long period of intense training, tapping into his fighting genius as well. Super Saiya-jin 2 is another matter, as Gohan achieved it through a combination of incredible hidden potential + explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta arguably lacked these circumstances and reached the stage as well.
For all we know, there could be a limit to how many transformations/stages a Saiya-jin can achieve, and SSJ3 could indeed be the very last, limit one. After that, if the Saiya-jin wants to go even further than that, then either the theory is wrong and there are further possible transformations even beyond SSJ3 (which by now has obviously been rendered totally obsolete, for more than one reason), or they can go for the exponential power-up provided by the achievement of Super Saiya-jin God (and, after that, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). The Super Saiya-jin transformations, regardless of whether they're supposed to follow a "building up on the previous one" setting or not, could, for all we know, be endless.
Basically, regarding SSJG, and to summarize, I've defended the theory that it increments a Saiya-jin's power by a given measurable percentage on an exponential basis, based on his previous STRONGEST stage, pretty much like the Kaio-Ken technique. If this theory were correct, and if Vegeta turned (turns) Super Saiya-jin God when his strongest stage is only Super Saiya-jin 2, then his power level would be far below Goku's as a SSJG, since Goku's maximum, on which the transformation is based, is above Vegeta (Super Saiya-jin 3). The only reason why I postulated the theory of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 was in line with this other theory, as in, in order to put Vegeta entirely on par with Goku, he would first of all have to become as strong as Goku was BEFORE either of them reached Super Saiya-jin God (which means Super Saiya-jin 3).
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Hi,
I have a set of questions for you, just to get some stuff out of the way all at the same time.
We've already solved my double-posting problem, I acknowledged my mistake and will refrain from doing it. That's entirely out of the way by now.
You've commended me on the length of my posts, if not directly, then implicitly, as (and this is stated in the Forum Rules as well) the more well-written and content-packed the posts are, the better, so long as they don't deviate from the point or disrespect any of the other rules of the forum. However, regardless of the lack of availability on the part of some users to read my obsessively long posts, which I'm not criticizing, I'd ask you to be fully direct with me and let me know if there's something about my posting frequency/length/type you'd like me to change, so I can improve the level of acceptance by the community in general. I obviously understand you want as many detailed and well-written content in the users' posts as possible, but I'm just not sure whether or not I'm just going too far with the the frequency and especially with how long my posts in fact are. Please let me know your exact position on that.
You don't have to answer the following question, but I'll ask it anyway: as a careful moderator, you most likely keep an eye mostly on new members who may be a little bit more unpredictable and susceptible of going against the rules somehow, but do you, or any other moderator(s), read through the entire posts submitted by everyone from beginning to end? I'm asking this out of sheer curiosity, as I'm fully aware of the fact that my posts are indeed usually quite lengthy and I might have been giving you additional trouble with that.
I would like, and I've been giving my best, to generate as many conversations, discussions, points, theories, etc., on DBSuper and Dragonball altogether, and to some degree I've managed to do it, but I must be frank with you and tell you that the amount of interesting views, points and theories developed by the users is far beyond what would make me, personally, happy with, in terms of quantity/quality of time spent here discussing Dragonball-related issues. Is there any way I can personally help other than by keeping doing what I've been doing since you accepted me in the forum? I understand that it's pointless to suggest that you let users create new threads on their own accord, as it would make it much harder to control the quality and flow of the threads, but I'm just frustrated by the almost total lack of interesting discussions. I'd like more users to be present, although I understand that all of us have our own private lives and work to live and do, but it seems that whenever some potentially interesting point is introduced, it generates two or three one or two-sentence replies and it ends right there. Could we make a joint effort to further develop the intellectual perspective of the users' participation in the website and the forum's discussions, along with its quality?
Thank you in advance for the time spent and the potential attention given to all ramifications of this message, and I'd be delighted to receive an answer from you regarding each and every one of the issues I mentioned.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
If Vegeta turns Super Saiya-jin God when his strongest stage is only Super Saiya-jin 2, then his power level would be far below Goku's as a SSJG, since Goku's maximum, on which the transformation is based, is above Vegeta (Super Saiya-jin 3).
When they fought in the Buu arc with their Ssj2 forms they're power was equal to one another which means Goku having Ssj3 doesn't mean he's stronger then Vegeta when they're in they're base ,ssj&ssj2 forms which means they'll be equal or pretty close to each other when they attain the Ssjg form.
What I meant to say was like the following: if my theory on the exponential percentual boost in power given by the Super Saiya-jin God transformation is right (that means, it boost to a given percentage the maximum power level achievable by a given Saiya-jin), then if, for the sake of argument and simplicity, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta is a 10, his power level in the SSJG stage would be a 30, while Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, who is a 15, would have a power level in the SSJG stage of 45. I'm talking about their maximum's here. If this is correct, and if Vegeta has indeed caught up with Goku by Fukkatsu no F, then when he turns Super Saiya-jin God at some point in DBSuper (becoming a "45" just like Goku), he must be transforming building up on his previous maximum (15, just like Goku, as in, Super Saiya-jin 3).
I've tried with different methods but I'm not sure I'm getting my point across too well regarding my theory on the possibility of Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta and the amount to which the stage of Super Saiya-jin God increases one's power, and how exactly it works altogether.
Nevertheless you're right, although Goku could have gone Super Saiya-jin 3 and easily beat Majin Vegeta, when they fought each other in the early Majin Buu arc, both of them as Super Saiya-jin 2, they're virtually equal. Goku would always have the edge, though, as he could go SSJ3 at any moment and keep from being killed in the fight (Vegeta does try to actually kill him more than once, it's not just physical punishment), which is something Vegeta couldn't do (neither at that point nor as late as the timing at which BoG takes place, as far as we know) and a piece of rather important information Goku kept hidden from Vegeta, which in turn sparks rage on Vegeta's part later on when discussing fusion, as Goku deliberately held back a yet more powerful transformation and was basically holding back when he fought Vegeta, which is one of the most serious humiliations Vegeta's pride could suffer, especially coming from Kakarotto.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
The fact that the original Saiya-jin in Planet Vegeta became SSJG and indeed reach that insane level of power, even though he was just a regular Saiya-jin, suggests that ANY Saiya-jin, regardless of their power, if "by chance" (mentioned in BoG) underwent the ritual, would become stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and basically as strong as Goku was when he fought Beerus in his SSJG state.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/
Interviewer : Is it possible that other Saiyans will be able to become [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
Toriyama : Of course. However, strength will vary depending on the battle power of the Saiyan who becomes [Super Saiyan] God.
So it's like I said,the power a Saiyan gets from the form depends on his base power,not his strongest form so even though Vegeta might not have Ssj3 he'll still be equal to Goku due to his base power being equal to his.
When he says "battle power" he doesn't specify whether he's referring to the Saiya-jin's base power level or to the maximum he can output in his strongest Super Saiya-jin stage. By "battle power of the the Saiyan" he could very well be meaning the strongest a Saiya-jin can be when he pushes it to his limits (be it Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3 or whatever). Sorry, but I don't accept that as definitive proof that the Super Saiya-jin God transformation enhances the Saiya-jin's Ki in his base power.
We're postulating and going in depth into two different theories, but whichever ones turns out to be true, if it's yours, then Vegeta would become either as strong as Goku in his SSJG/SSJGSSJ stage or even stronger, and it would also make the power level of the original Saiya-jin who turned SSJG by chance back on Planet Vegeta leagues below that of most fighters at this stage, given the fact that a normal, low-class Saiya-jin's power level would never go beyond anything like 2.000 or 3.000.
We have to note that "as soon" as a Saiya-jin becomes able to go Super Saiya-jin, we need to consider not only his power level in his base form, but his power level in this transformed state, which isn't the case with regular Saiya-jins who didn't manage to reach Super Saiya-jin (which was 99% of the race, including the one on Planet Vegeta who went SSJG).
And it's interesting to note that, although the theory of the Super Saiya-jin God transformation increasing the power level of a Saiya-jin on a multiplying basis, just like Kaio-Ken, there's a big difference between the way these two work. Kaio-Ken becomes completely obsolete as soon as Goku reaches Super Saiya-jin, and he never uses it again (except against Paiku-han, but that's non-canon, and even it if had actually happened, calling it "Super Kaio-Ken" or something like that, it didn't have any effect on Goku's power level). The Kaio-Ken technique is the one which, unlike SSJG, increases the Saiya-jin's power level taking into account his base form, I highly doubt it has ANY effect when used after Goku turns Super Saiya-jin (other than some sort of physical/aura amalgamation between the golden aura of the SSJ state and the red aura of Kaio-Ken).
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
When he says "battle power" he doesn't specify whether he's referring to the Saiya-jin's base power level or to the maximum he can output in his strongest Super Saiya-jin stage.
That's true but in FNF both of them were close in terms power even though Vegeta didn't reach Ssj3 and were even training together so if the form's power depended on the users strongest form then Vegeta wouldn't have been able to keep up with Goku during their training.
I know this is probably just coincidence but could him as a Ssj3 getting announced for Zenkai Battle Royal be a hint at him getting it in Super ? cause as far as I know the game doesn't have any what if's.
And who told you that by the time of Fukkatsu no F Vegeta didn't already become able to reach Super Saiya-jin 3? That was the whole center of the theory, that at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F Vegeta would have become/been able to become a Super Saiya-jin 3, and only after THAT did he become Super Saiya-jin God, and so on, incorporating the state's abilities and power and training along with Goku under Whis (pretty much following the exact same steps Goku did - Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with SSJG abilities and power, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin -, although just a bit later).
But again, and reverting to the beginning of this particular discussion, it's really just a theory based on the way I viewed what I consider to be a difference between the incremental, step-by-step Super Saiya-jin transformations, building up on the previous one, and Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. I highly doubt any of this will come to pass, they won't show Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 and the whole theory collapses. Vegeta will just turn Super Saiya-jin God at some point slightly after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, and little or no attention will be paid to whatever his or Goku's previous Super Saiya-jin stages were, rendering them completely obsolete after they're able to become Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin by themselves and totally master the stage(s).
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He'll get raped by Puar. Nah, seriously, everyone'll have their own time, but Yamcha's will play a much smaller role than, say, Krillin. The Tenshinhan + Chaozu duo has always been the most absent duo, and it got to a point in the later stages of DBZ (both in the Majin Buu arc and in the last movies) where not even Krillin was part of the active fighting team, but these last movies, specials and now DBSuper is doing a good job of (re)introducing each and every one of them. The kind of power Beerus, Whis, Goku and Vegeta have at this point, just to mention the very strongest, pretty much makes the likes of Yamcha totally and utterly obsolete as a fighter. That shouldn't mean he shouldn't get his screen-time, though, but, unlike Tenshinhan, for example, I doubt he'll partake in any fighting or land a single blow. Hasn't done so in BoG, whereas Tenshinhan did.
Both BoG and Fukkatsu no F had to be given careful thought as far as screen-time for the character goes, given the time restrictions typical of a movie, even larger ones like the last two. DBSuper, as a full-fledged series, has a lot more room to expand and give each and every one of them their time to shine (Muten Roshi made a surprising and hilarious out-of-nowhere entrance in the very first episode, for example).
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I doubt it will happen, but if there was a direct confrontation between Beerus and Champa (beyond a conversational one, or an argument, which we'll certainly get, as there seems to be some sort of rivalry/animosity between them), Beerus turns out to be stronger. I know it's never going to happen, but I'd like Beerus to beat the shit out of that overweight cat. We've already been introduced to the awesomeness of Beerus' character, he's already part of the family. However, it's more likely that they're mere counterparts with a friendly rivalry between them other than any serious animosity.
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I've been totally patient with the pace at which the events of DBSuper are being presented, and I'm well over the fact that we're basically getting both BoG and Fukkatsu no F retold in the form of arcs within the series pretty much in the exact same circumstances, but after one week(end) without an episode I'm suddenly feeling the urge to move forward with the story and have Champa introduced, Freeza's resurrection, Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God, Goku and Vegeta training under Whis and whatever/whoever the hell we'll be introduced to in the 6th Universe arc. We've over-debated all possible aspects surrounding the Beerus and Freeza arcs within DBSuper when related to the movie versions, and according to the calculations/estimates earlier today in another thread we won't be "done" with the Beerus and Freeza arcs by the 23/25 episode. Goddamn it, I need to watch some ferocious fighting against insanely powerful villains with the entire Universe(s) at stake, already.
Hopefully by tomorrow this sensation will be gone and I'll get back to normal.
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Gyt Kaliba wrote:
I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we ended up seeing Yamcha in the Super version of Resurrection 'F'. The same goes for Boo, Goten, and Trunks. With how quickly Super was announced after the new movie, I can't help but think that early on in the process of making F, Toriyama was displeased with having to cut the story around the runtime rather than fully running with whatever his ideas were, similar to how he had to cut out the entire team going after Beerus in the previous film (which is something I really want to see re-instated for this new version of the story). Only time will tell, but I'd imagine that they'll be there doing something in the arc, even if it's not major.
Yeah, Fukkatsu no F was pretty restrictive as far as the number of fighters belonging to the team who were present, much more so than BoG. I'm sure that without any time restrictions, they'll throw in Yamcha and pretty much everyone else in the Freeza arc, regardless of how insignificant their presence is and whether they even fight or not. Goten and Trunks will surely not only show up in the Freeza arc, but I'd go as far as speculate that they'll get some fighting time as well.
All of these recent in-depth discussions we've been having on the retelling of the movies as arcs is giving me more and more the impression that, regardless of the quality of BoG and Fukkatsu no F, the only way to fully please anyone and take every single character into account to give them the proper screen-time was to wait for DBSuper. Additionally, there's a number of off-screen events which "took place" between BoG and Fukkatsu no F that I'd like to have presented as well throughout the arc's episodes, especially Freeza's training, Vegeta reaching Super Saiya-jin God, Whis accepting to train both Goku and Vegeta and potentially some other expansion on just what the relationship between Freeza and Beerus exactly is when it comes to the decision to take out Planet Vegeta and the Saiya-jin as a race. With a full-fledged series, there's no excuse for them NOT to explore and expand upon a number of previously unseen events. But damn, I was totally ok with it until now, but after a week(end) without an episode I'm starting to get anxious and feel the need for new episodes not only to see what new concepts they've introduced in the Beerus arc when compared to BoG, but also and especially to move along with storyline. One episode per week seemed just right until now, but now I'm getting the feeling that it's just not enough to ease my need for new Dragonball material.
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Again in the field of pure speculation, Champa could either be a long-time contender of Beerus for the position of Hakaishin of the 7th Universe (hence the animosity apparent between them), he could belong to the same race or even be a direct relative of Beerus', he could be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe (a rather likely possibility, as he has his own attendant much in the same way Beerus has Whis), or he could even be behind some more serious, evil scheme which might have something to do with the 6th Universe. There are other possibilities other than these. We'll just have to wait and see as the info and the episodes come out.
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Thank you. I don't put a lot of emphasis on my birthday anymore, for a number of reasons, putting it mildly, but I do appreciate the regards people send me for my birthday.
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We've got some tools to generate a theory and predict who Champa really is and just what his relationship with Beerus is.
First of all, Beerus said there are 12 Universes in total. Then we got to know that in DBSuper we'll be exploring one of those other Universes, the 6th. Champa has a similar appearance to Beerus, he's a cat as well (regardless of how unimaginative that is or not), wears the same type of clothing and has an attendant just the same way Beerus does. The easiest theory to postulate is that Champa is just the Hakaishin of the 6th Universe they'll be exploring, and that for some reason he has some long-time rivalry/animosity towards Beerus (they may have competed for the position of Hakaishin of the 6th or the 7th Universes, they may have competed for millions of years to see who's the strongest Hakaishin (Champa being the one for the 6th Universe, Beerus being the one for the 7th). Who knows?
However, I can't really see Champa becoming THE menace in DBSuper after the Freeza arc, although he might be the one to create the problems that need to be fixed with the usage of the Super Dragon Balls in the first place. Sharing an animosity/friendly rivalry with another deity doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go around becoming a major villain in the series.
My best bet is that Champa is just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe and has always shared an ages-long animosity/rivalry with Beerus over their respective powers, pretty much competing with each other to see which one does their job better and/or which one is more powerful, just like the relationship Vegeta has towards Goku. They could also have competed for the position of Hakaishin for a particular Universe and Beerus was chosen over Champa, relegating the latter to a lower position, causing a lot of bitterness on the part of Champa, who decides at this point to take some sort of revenge on Beerus by defying him or doing who-knows-what (pretty much the same way Garlic Jr. wants revenge on Kami for the fact that the latter was chosen over his father to the throne of Earth's Guardian).
Just speculations, and no point in going any further with them. We'll just have to wait and see what actually happens and what exactly the story is between these two and the 4 of them, hopefully no later than right after the Freeza arc, which should be "done with" by episode 23/25, according to our estimates. But if I had to put my money on a particular scenario, I'd definitely go for Champa just being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe exactly in the same way Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th, and their ages-long relationship generated competition/rivalry/animosity between them. If it is indeed Champa who turns out to be the major villain/antagonist in DBSuper, at least in the 6th Universe, then I'll have to say that I'd be disappointed. I don't want another laid-back fat cat to be the best villain they could come up with, I want 2015's version of a maniacal, genocidal, ruthless, absolutely evil villain with mind-boggling powers threatening the entire Universe(s), going past Goku, Vegeta and the others and actually INCLUDING Beerus and Whis. Considering the target audience DBSuper is mostly directed towards, we may end up with an overall much smoother and lighter series and events than we did throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, and we'll laugh at/cry over the comparison between the degree of seriousness, drama, evil, blood and violence present in DBSuper and the same elements in the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs.
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I think that after over-discussing the whole issue of having both BoG and Fukkatsu no F retold as arcs within DBSuper, almost in the exact same circumstances, with a few changes and adaptations here and there, we're over any disappointment over the issue and pretty much accepted the road they chose to go down. After all this time, I think it's a pretty simple matter to summarize what happened with the way they handled the success (and the potential) of BoG as a story while at the same time planning to generate an entire full-fledged new series after 18 years. We can look at the recent movies/specials/Kai as a process of revitalization of Dragonball after 11 years of absolute inactivity which would - deliberately or not - eventually lead to the real explosion: a new series. Toriyama felt that the story, characters and events depicted in BoG had so much potential to them that he "needed" to give full extension to the whole ideas he didn't have time to explore in the theatrical movie, due to the time restrictions typical of a film, and while he intended to move further and go with an entire new series, he basically joined the two concepts together and that's why we ended up with a retelling of BoG almost on a sentence-by-sentence basis (as far as the serious plot involving Beerus/Whis/Super Saiya-jin God goes), in pretty much the same exact circumstances although at a different timing. Like in the DB and DBZ episodes, which (understandably) contained a rather large amount of filler material for well-explained reasons, in DBSuper they also amalgamated the process of (re)introducing every character in the first two/three smooth family-oriented episodes along with the need to "fill" the episodes with more animation depicting character-specific funny/comic events, some with more success than others.
What could still be debatable - and we may indeed never reach a full final conclusion on this - is whether or not it really was necessary to "decanonize" BoG and Fukkatsu no F by changing the timing at which the events take place, after we all went through the process of accepting the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of Dragonball's timeline, especially only 2 years and a few months, respectively, after the movies were released. We suddenly had to reverse the entire process again, but I think that by now virtually every fan has accepted that and is AT LEAST satisfied with the result of the first three episodes we've already witnessed; the only issue remaining is the fact that, by retelling events, characters and stages we've already been introduced to, repackaging the movies' stories as the Beerus and Freeza arcs has the serious potential to disappoint a large chunk of fans. We've already estimated that it very reasonably shouldn't take any more than 23/25 episodes to go through both arcs and get to the real entirely new material in the 6th Universe arc, but that amounts to a few months worth of reactions like "meh, we've already seen this stuff, we already what's going to happen, how could they decide to dedicate over 20 episodes of an entirely new series to the exact same events we were presented with just 2 years and a few months ago, respectively?" That's enough to discourage a few fans by itself, but thankfully almost everybody seems to be hanging on and accepting the way they chose to do it (or tolerate it, at least). There's always new stuff to discover in every episode, even taking into account that we alternate between reintroductions and interactions of major characters and the gradual and incremental depiction of the Beerus/Whis duo (also in a somewhat more mysterious and chilling way when compared to the way we were introduced to them and their characters in the first fifth of BoG, and indeed throughout the rest of the entire movie).
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Uub was introduced weeks after they showed Kid Buu's defeat. The whole Majin Buu arc was too much present in everyone's minds, hence the concept of a reincarnated Kid Buu. That's not the case anymore. That was back in 1996, it's been 19 years. We've been over-debating the potential retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ (last Tenkaichi Budokai and introduction of Uub), and, unlike BoG and Fukkastu no F, and more like the rest of the arcs throughout the entirety of DBZ, I doubt they'll touch it. The mistake was made at that moment and it can't be undone now.
I personally have always failed to create any empathy towards Uub, and - I've stated this numerous times already - I never liked the way they chose to end DBZ, especially taking into account we get a 10 year time-skip between episodes 288 and 289; on one hand, it gives us ten years to explore, but, unless they retcon those last 3 episodes of DBZ, whatever happens in DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and for some reason it doesn't really seem or "feel" like at the time everyone meets again and Goku fights Uub they went through the whole Beerus, Super Saiya-jin God, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, 6th Universe arc events.
I honestly think Toriyama wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible after the titanic battle against Majin/Kid Buu, after over a decade of an incessant process of creativity regarding new characters, stages, events for DBZ. In 1996 he was (understandably) tired and consumed by the pressure of having to come up with new stories worthy of the fantastic history of DB's later and all of DBZ's arcs, which is one of the main reasons for his lack of involvement of GT right after that. They went for GT right away purely for commercial reasons, which is never the right thing to do and why, for a number of over-debated reasons and factors, GT was little more than a disaster in terms of character background, fighting, character development and interactions, storyline, etc. In fact, we can already see in the Majin Buu arc a few signs or hints that he was pretty much just running out of ideas, which is why (at least in my personal opinion) the Majin Buu arc is the least fantastic of DBZ. In fact, apart from the concept of Ultimate Gohan, Vegitto, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and some of the fights against the various forms of Super Buu and Kid Buu, the best/most dramatic/serious parts of the entire arc appear in the early stages of the saga, with Dabura, Vegeta being possessed by Babidi and the (fantastic) showdown between Super Saiya-jin 2 Majin Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku. Fat Majin Buu is just likeable a character to be considered a major villain to be taken seriously (which is why, in fact, they recognized this in time and changed the entire concept by expanding upon his history and background, going back to a physically menacing-seeming villain like Super Buu/Kid Buu, providing acceptable explanations for why he ended up in his fat form like he did).
However, I'm deviating from the original conversation at hand somewhat. Just wanted to share my thoughts on the many ramifications of the Majin Buu arc, leading up to its conclusion with the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. In no way does it compare or come close to all the previous arcs (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell) in terms of seriousness/hopelessness/drama, but that's just my personal opinion. The Majin Buu arc had its fantastic moments as well, and I've described them, but it also has shortcomings, which are totally lacking in all the other arcs I've listed.
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If not by themselves, it could be that they do fight, although as Gotenks (against Beerus, just like in BoG). Although Gotenks never appealed too much to me and he came rather close to annoy me at times during the Majin Buu arc, he's an extremely powerful fighter and serves the purpose of further proving Goten and Trunks' utility for fighting against antagonists with a power level in the tier of Majin Buu. Besides, Gotenks is indeed shown in the opening for DBSuper, and I hope that appearance is not just because he has a go at Beerus and nothing else for the remainder of the series.
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This is just a matter of personal opinion and taste, which is not supposed to be subject to criticism, but personally Uub has never, ever appealed to me. I welcomed Beerus and Whis with open arms not because they're new and "we need something or someone fresh to join the gang", but because of their awesome character(s) in a variety of ways.
As far as heroes go, I'd rather stick with the known ones (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Tenshinhan), not to play it safe, but because of the fantastic background and the wonderful history of fighting and dramatic events they went through for over a decade, which is a gradual process of granting them a place in your heart. Uub is an Earthling who, despite having an enormous potential, reminds me a lot of Nam for a variety of reasons, has never fought anybody and appears in three episodes; he missed more than 99% of DB and DBZ's fantastic arcs. For no reason has he earned a place in my heart when it comes to Dragonball. Sorry to put it so bluntly and coldly for you Uub fans/admirers/supporters, but that's just my personal position, and you're entitled to yours.
Your reasoning makes total sense, though, but I can't lie to you and tell you that I want your small glimpse of hope turns out to become a reality. I do hope - and I've already stated that I DON'T think it'll happen - that the last 3 episodes of DBZ get retconned, and consequently that that last Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub become non-canon and are "erased" from the series timeline's history. And I bet, for the reasons I specified in my previous post, that if Toriyama could go back in time he would never go for that 10 year-time-skip, that Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub.
Speaking of favorite characters, some of you might already reasoned that Vegeta and Piccolo are among them, but, even though I refuse to generate an all-time personal ranking, my all-time favorite characters from the entirety of Dragonball are Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan (these three for their charisma, pride and especially their stoic, serious, and previously-evil background), Cell (in his perfect form), Dabura (I have a fascination for the concept of "the devil", and Dabla's appearance is pretty much the incarnation of it), Piccolo Daimao (my avatar says it all, I think) and, for other reasons and only for certain, very specific and particular periods of time, Goku (when he fights Nappa and Vegeta, when he displays his unbelievable power to Ginyu, and finally when he loses it and turns Super Saiya-jin and avenges his race) and Gohan (when he loses it and thrashes the Cell Juniors and Cell as a Super Saiya-jin 2, and in the brief episodes in which he dominates Super Buu as an adult, and only in these two circumstances, and in no others). Not a big fan of Gohan overall, of Krillin, or of Yamcha, for example.
Not including non-canon, movie characters or villains here, otherwise there would be more in the list.
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Ushabtis wrote:
never liked uub...He didn't win me over in GT either. Found him kinda boring. I'd rather Toriyama not even think about the EOZ and have Super go anywhere it wants without worries of stepping on the toes of previous canons (eoz, gt, etc)
You can pretty much cease even caring about GT, it's officially non-canon, but as far as the last 3 episodes of DBZ go, you basically share my thoughts that it would be good if that last Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub were just basically "erased" from history, correcting an error made 19 years ago for the reasons I've explained, one which Toriyama probably wishes he would have never have made in the first place. The hastily invented background for Uub was a direct result of Toriyama's tiredness after over a decade of a constant process of fantastic creativity, which by the time of Majin Buu, and especially its end, he just couldn't stand anymore, when it comes to pressure. He wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible after Kid Buu's defeat and threw whatever little sliver of creativity he had left at that point and out came Uub as a reincarnation of a character who had been killed just 3 episodes before, who leaves off in Goku's back. I don't know, but for more than one reason this just doesn't seem a worthy ending for a series that gave us the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, Majin Buu sagas.
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Ushabtis wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
You can pretty much cease even caring about GT, it's officially non-canon
I will always like GT regardless of its Canon status.
I don't, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether it's canon or not (I love some of the 13 Movies from DBZ and they're utterly non-canon). I've been over-repeating myself on a number of positions, you need only read my thoughts on GT which I previously posted.
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Galan007 wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
This is just a matter of personal opinion and taste, which is not supposed to be subject to criticism, but personally Uub has never, ever appealed to me.
The idea of Oob is more appealing to me than Oob himself was actually portrayed, if that makes sense.
It does, I get what you mean. But for the reasons I've stated before, the entire concept didn't produce a satisfactory result (at least for me), especially due to how quickly Toriyama wanted to just put an end to DBZ. The CONCEPT of an entirely new fighter with the potential to get Goku (and the others) excited, though, could be something worth exploring, regardless of whether he's a good guy, a mere rival/antagonist or a full-fledged villain. However, even though it took 17 years for Toriyama to get it done, we got that potential entirely fulfilled with the introduction of Beerus, for example.
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NeoKING wrote:
I've been re-watching all of Super, to capture the charm that the series attempts to give its viewers. The OP is okay, but I like how it teases at the future. Ultimate Gohan in civilian clothes? Cool. I always thought we needed more non-orange gi good guys. Goku and Vegeta walking towards whatever they're walking towards? Interesting. Episodes 1-3? Not worth it.
Super just reminds me of those shoddy Duel Masters remakes that ShoPro would do. Except it's not as good.
Well, then just imagine if BoG was never released at all and we were being introduced to Beerus and Whis for the very first time. Now THAT would be getting all of us exceedingly hyped. A cat suddenly blowing planets away in mysterious circumstances in what appears to be the setting for an upcoming confrontation between him and his attendant and Goku, Vegeta and the others, in search of something called "Super Saiya-jin God". If we hadn't seen BoG, among an interminable list of other things, we'd be thinking he's closer to an evil character than he actually is, given his somewhat more serious/chilling portrayal in DBSuper when compared to the movie.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, back on track, new episode today. Goddamn it, that last week without one produced much more serious consequences in me than I could ever expect. It's good to be back on the routine. Hyped to see those hardly-outlined parts of Pilaf and Beerus and the latter's arrival on Kaiou-sama's planet. I wonder how different (or how exactly the same) the interactions and lines will be between him and Kaiou-sama, between Kaiou-sama and Goku, and finally between Beerus and Goku, leading up to their fight. Can't wait to see the series' version of Goku getting KO'd, and I do hope that they stretch they fight just a little bit longer (in the movie it takes less than a minute for Goku to be rendered unconscious counting from the moment he first charges against Beerus, it should take a minute and a half in the fifth episode). :D
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Again, multiple hypothesis, but the strongest ones are:
- Either Champa is a long-time rival of Beerus who competed with him for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe and wants revenge on him (along the lines of Garlic Jr. against Kami)
- Or Champa is the Hakaishin of the 6th Universe (which is a strong possibility, as we'll be exploring that same Universe and Champa not only has obvious physical resemblances to Beerus, but also his own attendant, exactly like Beerus has Whis)
I just hope they don't turn Champa into the main villain in DBSuper. He obviously shares some degree of animosity/friendly rivalry with Beerus, but that should be it. He won't be neither good nor evil, just like Beerus, and he won't take sides, just like Beerus (except, for some reason, against Beerus himself, in order to get some sort of revenge on him). Sharing such a strong resemblance to Beerus, and given his physical appearance, he's just too likeable a character to be the main villain in the series. I want psychotic, maniacal evil screwed-up maniacs as villains like we had them throughout the later stages of DB and DBZ, not cats who, despite their unbelievable power, have no intention to torture or conquer others in a sadistic/narcissistic manner, going around experiencing food and displaying comic traits, which we've already seen in Beerus in numerous instances.
By the way, I didn't say I wanted them to stretch the Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet by too much, just a little bit longer. Beerus getting Goku KO'd easily and quickly should be maintained, as it's a fundamental part of showing just how much of a gap there is between their powers at that stage.
I'd also like, and I'm pretty sure we'll get it, longer versions of Piccolo's, #18's, Tenshinhan's, Gotenks', Gohan's and Vegeta's attempts on Beerus. Vegeta did get his second shot after he lost it over Bulma, but all of them were dispatched with one blow. Just too quickly. Let's have some more awesome fighting, please.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
It won't surprise me if Toriyama does rewrite the end of DBZ in some way, but I still think the ending still fits with the series so far. Goku has already absorbed God’s power and made it his own which explains why Goku does not need to use SSj anymore. It can also explain why Goku didn't go SSj when he fought Uub when he pissed him off. Uub after being angry show off on how strong he can be and Goku knew that he can train him into something even stronger.
Yeah, Goku could very well be using his base form after having absorbed the abilities and powers of the Super Saiya-jin God stage (like he did while fighting Beerus in BoG and while trying to land a punch on Whis in Fukkatsu no F), there's definitely room to fit that in so it makes sense. I didn't say the introduction of Uub didn't make sense at all, I just said I didn't like it for the reasons I listed and detailed.
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Well, that's the least likely of a reason why he wouldn't go SSJ against Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai. So unlikely a reason that it never even crossed my mind, in fact. Goku doesn't give a flying f*** about what people think about him or his fighting abilities, unlike Gohan (or Bulma), or to some degree thought it would be a problem in terms of publicity and harassment if the public in general knew about their superhuman powers.
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I feel the relief and utter bliss of watching the minutes drawing inexorably closer and closer to another episode after two weeks stuck with over-discussing a number of issues without actually getting an episode to put forth our thoughts about.
Goddamn it, this experience never gets old, never thought that at 32 years of age in 2015 we'd all be watching a new episode from an entirely new Dragonball series at the same time all over the world every weekend. It's really hard to express how this atmosphere feels, and it hasn't changed a bit so far ever since the series debuted.
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Yeah, if we get this hyped at events and characters we've already been introduced to in BoG almost in the same exact circumstances, imagine witnessing entirely unexplored and new events, fights and villains some 20/22 episodes from now.
Anyway, 23 minutes to go.
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The amount of rivals to Goku who "stepped over" Vegeta's rivalry with Kakarotto throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, not to mention the (non-canon) movies is so great that I think he's well over the fact that he's not the only one after him. Besides, by this time it's not really being after him, it's leaning more towards a friendly rivalry than towards a bitter desire for killing him. He's basically back to the whole "I'll surpass you, Kakarotto", "I'll show you, Kakarotto", "I'll be above all in the entire Universe" routine. And that's good for him, for the good guys and for the series altogether. Although his pride has caused him some bitter defeats and unpleasant moments in the past, it's also his not-so-healthy obsession to surpass Kakarotto that always helped him to push over his limits and reach new stages of power. Add to that the fact that he's a gifted, fighting genius with a huge ego and the fact that he's a pure Saiya-jin fighting maniac, and you've got Vegeta.
Vegeta teaming up with/helping others tossing his pride aside for a minute is not a new thing at all. He did it to help Gohan defeat Cell once and for all, he did it during the Majin Buu arc, he did it in BoG. It's a good thing he's regressed and is bent on surpassing everyone again (especially Kakarotto).
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Here it comes.
Hakaishin Birusu-sama !
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I doubt we'll get as many alternations between the Beerus/Whis duo and other characters. The third episode focused a lot more on Beerus than the first two did. It's pretty obvious that about half of it will be dedicated to Pilaf's schemes and the preparations for Bulma's birthday party, and the other half to Beerus trip and arrival on Kaiou-sama's planet. Really looking forward to those hard-streamlined pieces of animation. Can't hide that I actually like them, but I wouldn't want an entire series like that. It was used in Movie 12 but in rather comic/humorous/inoffensive circumstances.
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First thoughts: far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang.
One of the differences between the series and BoG is the fact that Pilaf doesn't immediately and automatically recognize/mistake Goten for Goku upon seeing him.
Funny how much of a difference there is between how Kaiou-sama presents the concept of Beerus to Goku. He straight away tells Goku who he is without even trying to hide it from him, deeply contrasting with what we saw in BoG. Although he does try to hide Goku from Beerus, he doesn't really seem to be nearly as terrified at the prospect of having Beerus as a guest and especially at the possibility of Goku taking a (fighting) interest in Hakaishin Beerus.
Based on the preview for the fifth episode, there will indeed be a much lengthier battle than that of BoG. There are Ki blasts, Goku does charge and attack while at Super Saiya-jin/Super Saiya-jin 2 instead of going all out (Super Saiya-jin 3) from the beginning. The way Beerus defeats Goku might be different as well. The battle will probably fill almost the entire episode as well.
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And it just so happened that the scene I was most looking forward in the previous episode's preview (Beerus with thick lines smiling in Kaiou-sama's planet) was the last one to be shown in the episode. Just like I said, far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang.
Can't say I'm disappointed, I guess the next episode will definitely make up for this one. We'll finally get to see some serious all-out fighting (on Goku's part) for the first time in DBSuper. He did seem much more serious about the concept of a "Hakai no Kami" than he did in BoG.
Can't wait to have Goku get overwhelmed at every single stage he attacks Beerus at. It really looks like it will take the battle with last much longer than it did in the movie (we need to remember that Goku was rendered unconscious in a matter of a minute from the moment he first charges Beerus until the point he gets the pressure-point attack on his neck).
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nekobi wrote:
Anyone else notice the weird thick lines at times during the animation? Seemed weird to me! I liked the episode though and next week looks exciting. :D
That was actually over-discussed and associations were made with the way Movie 12 looked when Goten + Trunks fight Hitler and Mr. Satan fights the zombies. Looks exceedingly good at some points, but the contrast is just too great, and I wouldn't like an entire series drawn that way either. It's just too unreal.
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Funny how Vegeta reacts differently to Bulma when compared to other, regular people. He's utterly dismissive at that employee, but after Bulma scolds him he gives the entire impression he'll give up and indeed join the gang in her party.
It was an interesting addition to the series. We've already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's gravity room training before (Bulma, in episode 124), but this time it was just a nameless employee he couldn't care less about.
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I honestly think this was the least good episode from all 4 we've witnessed so far (again, just far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang), but I'm also entirely sure that episode 5 will fully compensate for it. Things will finally get serious in the fighting department.
It seems there's a correlation between how good an episode is and how much time we spend with Beerus. :D
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Ushabtis wrote:
SSJ God Gogeta wrote:
I'm still not crazy about them retelling BoG and that other movie...
I'm actually very interested in how they'll handle ROF. many cool things happen in that movie. old Fighters get time to shine against some mooks and such. Having ROF being expanded upon and fleshed out more would definitely make the movie stronger. Also biggest reason why I'm looking forward to ROF Arc. Jaco! :mrgreen:
It's not just the number of events that happen DURING the movie, it's also about the events that took place OFF-SCREEN in the movie. There's a number of stuff I'd really like them to expand upon and fully explain regarding Fukkatsu no F in its DBSuper arc counterpart. To be honest, there's more to be explored in the Freeza arc when compared to Fukkatsu no F than there is in the Beerus arc when compared to BoG. I just hope our estimates are right and we get only one or two episodes to make the transition between one arc and the other, and that the overall number of episodes to cover the retelling of both the Beerus arc (10/11 episodes) and the Freeza arc (another 10/11) amounts to no more than 22/23, or at most 25.
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Final note in this first review: I loved the way Beerus' tail flapped while traveling at super-speed on Whis' back for all those seconds. You just can't get enough of Beerus, no matter how insignificant his actions are or how little screen-time he gets.
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sintzu wrote:
It's nice to see they animated sparks for Ssj3.
Hopefully they'll do the same for Ssj2 so we'll be able to tell the difference between it and Ssj1.
It's obvious that they'll stretch the fight between Goku and Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet for quite a bit longer when compared to the minute it took for Beerus to KO Goku from the moment he first charged at him in BoG. One of the major differences between a full-fledged series, without the time restraints typical of a movie, and the movie itself, depicting the same (almost) exact events, is the fact that the whatever "little" (or not so little) additions we'll get can make quite a large impression on fans. In the movie, Goku basically shows off by presenting all of this three Super Saiya-jin stages to Beerus (much in the same way the did to fat Majin Buu and Babidi), even going as far as saying that he can go back to SSJ2 if Beerus wants to, but only charges at this strongest, SSJ3 stage.
On the other hand, it would be good if the time they put into the fight is just right for them to explore other techniques and for us to witness some major awesome fighting while at the same time having Beerus KO Goku just as simply, easily and almost as quickly as he did in BoG, as that is a fundamental aspect to demonstrate the degree of the gap there is between even someone as incredibly powerful as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Hakaishin Beerus.
I hope that if Goku charges at Beerus at every single one of his three SSJ stages, they don't forget to add the blue lightning to his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage. They handled it right regarding Goku and Vegeta throughout the Majin Buu arc, but after so many years (almost two decades) mistakes and imperfections could definitely occur.
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Collecting all of my thoughts/reviews/positions on this particular episode which I wrote separately in different, small posts right after the episode ended airing:
- Far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but we'll get compensated for that in the next episode, which, up until yesterday, I thought wouldn't be almost entirely dedicated to the fight between Goku and Beerus (and it will).
- Difference between BoG and DBSuper: Pilaf not automatically and immediately making a connection with Goku from their early DB adventures upon seeing Goten, which was to be expected after what we saw in BoG.
- The thick outlining looks "tasty", and we'll almost certainly get a number of different animation teams for DBSuper's episodes (although nowhere near the number of different animations teams for DB and DBZ, which was over 10 and worked in the episodes on a very easily identifiable alternate basis, if you understand what I mean by "alternate").
- It had been pointed out by almost all of us that the thick outlining we saw in some shots of the third episode's preview reminded us immediately and automatically of the animation of Movie 12, particularly the somewhat comic fight between Goten + Trunks against Hitler and Mr. Satan vs the zombies, but I wouldn't want an entire series of Dragonball animated that way. Just too unreal.
- We're done with the process of (re)introducing the characters in the first smooth family-oriented episodes, and that was a clever move to start off the series with (while at the same time presenting us with chilling/mysterious appearances by Beerus and Whis, just at the right pace), but now, at episode 5, it's time to start the serious fighting and actually (re)watch Goku get utterly dominated by Beerus. The minute the fight took in BoG was nothing to complain about, but it's definitely possible to extend the fight just the right way while at the same time displaying Beerus' enormous edge over Goku by having him barely react to ANY of Goku's attacks, and finally rendering him unconscious just as easily as he did in the movie.
- We had already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's training in the gravity room before (Jinzouningen arc, episode 124, Bulma), but this time it's an employee "Vegeta-sama" (not even "-san", she actually adds "-sama" to his name (!), probably out of a combination between respect and especially FEAR) Vegeta couldn't care less about, instead of someone he can and does occasionally cut some slack (namely, and especially, his immediate human family).
- Interesting to note just how much of a difference there is between the leverage Bulma has over Vegeta when compared to the (non-existant) leverage most other living beings do. The employee is treated rudely, as would be expectectable by Vegeta, especially in a setting in which she dares to interrupt his training, but as soon as Bulma scolds him, no matter how utterly important his training sessions are to him, he just can't say no to her. This is a perfect way to show just how the once proud, previously utterly evil and ruthless Saiya-jin prince restraints his natural violent/anti-social tendencies when it comes to dealing with the concept of a family and living beings who actually mean something to him deep down, perhaps even better than having him lose it over her being slapped or over Cell killing Mirai no Trunks in the late stage of the Cell Games, which is just too expectable and predictable.
One thing I've never mentioned regarding the content of DBSuper so far is how little time Piccolo - as one of my two favorite character from the entire Dragonball Universe - has been getting. I understand there's not a lot of time or reason for him to show up other than in serious/dramatic circumstances which demand both power and wisdom/intelligence, but he's been getting entirely an awful lot less time than I'd like it. It's the very first time I mentioned this ever in here, regarding DBSuper, but I'll guess we'll somewhat be also compensated for it when Beerus encounters the fighters on Earth and Piccolo, among the others, will have his shot at Beerus. I like the concept of having him rendered unconscious with two pressure-point touches to his body, but nevermind that, I want him to land more than a single kick (although I want his attacks, just like that of almost all others, to get blocked just as easily and effortlessly as they were in BoG).
Not going to go AGAIN into the whole "retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make Uub non-canon, etc.". It's been debated to death. Pretty much every single theory as been presented in the last days and weeks on that subject. We'll just have to wait and see how exactly they handle it, just like we'll have to wait to see exactly at what time and in what circumstances Champa (and his attendant) will be introduced, and just what his relationship to Beerus is, although also in this department pretty much every possible theory has already been postulated recently in the last few days.
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I hope that they dedicate almost the entirety of episode 5 to the introduction of Beerus to Goku and their subsequent fight, with some minor "interruptions". Judging by the preview, it really looks and feels like, beyond it mere being the focal point of the episode, the interaction/fight will take up about three quarters of the episode, which suits me just fine.
I hope they explore the potential of something along the lines of:
Goku *turns Super Saiya-jin*: "This is a stage that enables me to beat the likes of Freeza"
Beerus: "Hmm, hmm..."
*Goku launches at Beerus and doesn't even literally touch him*
Goku *turns Super Saiya-jin": This is the stage that enables me to beat an even more powerful villain we faced, Cell"
Beerus: "Right..."
*Goku has a go at Beerus and doesn't even literally touch Beerus, starting to get a little frustrated and irritated*
Goku *turns Super Saiya-jin 3": "And this is the MIGHTY Super Saiya-jin 3, which puts me in the leagues of Majin Buu and makes me one of the most powerful fighters in the Universe; I can go back to Super Saiya-jin 2, if you want"
Beerus: "No, no, that will do just fine. Come at me at full power, if you will"
*Goku nervously proceeds to try to catch up with Beerus, who dodges every single punch and kick, is knocked to the ground with no effort, gets blown away across part of the planet, flies up to the air, is invited by Beerus to continue, throws a full-power Kamehameha at Beerus, to absolutely no avail, and after a few more (now rather desperate) attempts, partially destroys Kaiou-sama's planet in the process*
*Beerus is unfazed and knocks Goku out with a single pressure point to the neck, or to some other area of his body, causing him to revert to his base form, barely breathing, rendering him unconscious.*
I hope that after whatever the exact version/sequence of the fight turns out to be, after Beerus KO's Goku, he whistles just like he did in BoG. There are some (indeed, a lot of) particular parts of BoG that absolutely NEED to be kept in the DBSuper's version of the story, most of them minor (major) details.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
I see no subbed version anywhere. What's the fun of watching it raw if you don't know Japanese?! :?
Anyways, I skipped forward to the episode preview for now. Finally, an episode I'm pretty hyped for. The battle seems a bit different than the one in the movie. =D
You don't need to be absolutely fluent in Japanese or have it as your nationality to get a large chunk of what's happening and indeed what they're saying. After nearly a decade of watching every single episode of DBZ (and most of the later stages of DB) in Japanese almost on a daily basis for hundreds of times, and relating what I'm hearing to the subtitles, I found myself having learned enough Japanese to the point where I don't really need subtitles to pretty much understand every single line in an episode.
Can't believe you skipped the entire episode. You don't skip a new Dragonball episode which has just seen the light of day after 18 years without a series, one which you've never seen before in your life, man. But I'm not criticizing you. Everyone has the right to be as much as fan of Dragonball as they feel like/want to.
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Beerus-sama wrote:
I can't help but feel sorry for North Kaio... The poor guy has suffered a lot since Goku arrived there,
here's a list of things Goku did:
Made Kaio crash against his house, causing it to collapse
didn't help Kaio to repair his house and even has the guts to eat all of his food while he does so.
Ruined the grass in the planet by pulling those weights of who knows how much tons
Cleaned Kaio with a dirty towel after scaring him for hearing a conversation that he doesn't needs to hear (he even laughed at him when Kaio got himself painted :o )
Will destroy Kaio's planet with the battle with Beerus in the next episode
Most probably will not make the wish to revive Kaio and the others when they call Shenlon for the SSG
Poor guy....
And that's counting only the stuff he did in DBSuper (so far). He basically has no respect towards Kaiou-sama and uses his "once-sacred" planet for training/eating purposes whenever the f*** he feels like, abandoning his family to do it. But the worst Goku has ever done to Kaiou-sama was obviously to cause his DEATH by having Cell transported to his planet and exploding there (after all these years I still can't think of a reasonable explanation on why Goku didn't just drop Cell there and had himself along with Kaiou-sama, Bubbles and Gregory Shunkan-Idoued to Earth or just any other place with living beings - remember that we're talking about Goku here, he was at a stage where he probably could have done all of this in a matter of less than a second, but the purpose was obviously to have Goku actually die at the hands of Cell, in order to have Gohan step over and become the new protagonist of DBZ after that, an intention which was an utterly failed move).
It's because of stuff like this that Goku is much less of a "pure-hearted" being than Gohan. Gohan is 100% good, has got no sliver of evil in him, but on top of that he's well-mannered, well-spoken, extremely respectful towards not only deities, but pretty much every single living being who doesn't happen to really push him to the top and really piss him off.
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I just thought of something (actually, I've thought about many parts of the whole thing at different times for a long time but only now put the entire picture together).
Regarding the "ranking" of the deities, we were first introduced to the Kami (God) of Earth. He was obviously considered to be the strongest being on the planet at the time of his first appearance, given his title. Then we get to meet Kaiou-sama, compared to whom any Guardian of any planet, like Kami, for example, is nothing.
In the episodes right after the Cell Games (I mean, from 195 to 200, with Goku meeting and fighting Paiku-han, etc.) we get to know that there are other Kaiou-samas, in fact one for each quadrant of the Universe. On top of that, there is even one MORE, reigning above the 4 of them.
Then, early in the Majin Buu arc, we're introduced to the Kaioshin, who is supposed to be the supreme deity in the Universe at the time as well, and later on it's revealed that he's actually just one of yet another set of 4 under YET another supreme ruler above all of them (the fat one now supposed to be the supreme deity in the Universe).
The Kaioshin are so "untouchable" and unreachable deities that Kaiou-sama himself says at some point that not even himself has had the honor of meeting him (at that point there was already just one). I think "unreachable" (even physically) is actually the pretty much the perfect adjective to describe them, taking into account the circumstances.
In terms of "ranking", the Beerus/Whis duo, being Hakaishin and respective attendant, might be looked at from a different perspective and put separately when compared to all other deities, instead of below or above them, but when it comes to power, there's obviously no doubt that Beerus is the strongest deity (and that's what he is).
However, despite being above ANY of the Kaioshin, and consequently much higher than all the Kaiou-samas and Dai Kaiou-sama, to the point of frightening all of them to death, and unlike the Kaioshin, Beerus had no problems with presenting himself to such a lower deity as Kaiou-sama at some point a long time ago, or in fact to anyone else. He's much more "reachable", in that sense, although if he does "reach" you you'll probably be blown to bits along with the planet you live in.
This accessibility and laid-backness just goes to show and further confirm Beerus' unique character. He pretty much does what he wants, to whomever he wants, whenever he wants, disregarding any rankings except the one that makes him the highest of all deities. The concept is totally new.
Besides, the balance of deities/demons/power levels was so upset during and after the Majin Buu arc, due to the fact that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan managed to overcome even the highest deities and destroy the then-thought to be unbeatable Majin Buu, that, despite never having had the "honor" of meeting the Kaioshin, Kaiou-sama (at least in BoG) directly speaks to Kibitoshin, which is quite a drastic change.
I'm not going to make a list or a ranking of deities or anything, I just wanted to share yet ANOTHER aspect of Beerus' character that utterly sets him apart from any other character in the entire series, be it a villain, a friendly rival or a full-fledged martial artist fighting for good. This neutrality, coupled with his comic traits and laid-backness, was either subject to a lot of thought by Toriyama's best genius moments, or it was one of the luckiest concepts to arise from his creative process EVER (and that's saying a lot, considering the fantastic history of all the arcs between the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ).
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Sandubadear wrote:
What does the 150,000 line mean? Are the power levels screwed up again, or Vegeta actually meant that 150k was the gravity level?
Also, why is Gregory even appearing if he's not going to nag like usual?
When Vegeta talks about "150.000" he's referring to the level of gravity he has just conquered during these last training sessions.
Gregory is there and he may not utter a single line throughout DBSuper at all, but the point is to have as many characters from DBZ's past present (most of whom, and in fact almost every single of them, has and will continue to receive fair treatment properly and appropriately respecting their fantastic past in the history of the series). Gregory has never been a major character, they chose to put him there as well as the ever-present training/companion animal duo keeping company to Kaiou-sama. Don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding Gregory's presence in the series. He's always been shown with Kaiou-sama from the beginning (Saiya-jin saga), and although I (also) always found him a little bit nagging, he kind of "deserves" to be present if Kaiou-sama and his planet will be playing a somewhat major role in the first episodes of the series.
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She has ALWAYS had quite a bit or arrogance/narcissism about her (especially her looks and her intellectual brilliance), which couples well with Vegeta's pride and past as royalty.
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Doctor. wrote:
150 THOUSAND times gravity or 150G?
Because the latter is what would make more sense.
Honestly I haven't rewatched the episode yet, I'd be able to tell you if I listened to what he says again. But it should be pointed out that as early as the Jinzouningen arc, he's shown training in the gravity room under a pressure of 300 and then 400, so 150 should be nothing for him by now (hence the possibility of 150.000). I'll just need to watch the episode again and I'll let you know, if nobody else does it before me.
"Sen" is 1.000, "Yaku" is 100, "gojiu" is 50, but then "man" is 10.000. If he says "Ichi yaku gojiu" then it's 150, and the right way to say 150.000 would be - I think - "Jiugo man" (literally, fifteen ten-thousands).
BlackCatScott wrote:
Thoroughly enjoyed it once again! I think the episode was well balanced. We spent a bit of time with everybody. Not sure on the content of the episode itself until I see it subbed but I enjoyed the hell out of it anyway.
Oh and... The Bingo stage!
Animation for Ep 4 looked different... really thick outlines on the characters. Not sure what that's all about?
The way they're doing is getting me hyped. They're distributing the time we spend with each character/sets of characters very well. I could hardly see how they could have distributing the time allocated for each character/family better.
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Blade wrote:
On the whole as a narrative spectacle I'd say this week was another superficially enjoyable episode. I'd argue, however, that it certainly felt a little bit drawn out in how it went over already-established facts, which in places, seemed quite unnecessary.
I'm not sure I'm all the way on-board with how they're trying to whip up a foreboding tone around Beerus' awakening. I think every scene on the Kaioshin home-world has more or less covered the exact same ground of 'Oh no. Beerus is awake'. I liked how in Battle of Gods their reaction to his awakening was briefly shown, but now in Super we've had three episodes of those characters being used in scene after scene to do more or less exactly the same thing. I mean, even for viewers who may be unfamiliar with Beerus and Whis, Super has already shown them to be not exactly the tyrannically evil Dragonball antagonists that we've had in the past - so why are they being hyped up as such in the narrative over and over again? It just feels like, at this point, it's both arbitrary and a little incongruous.
After they've chosen to go down the road of retelling BoG and introduce Beerus and Whis, we could see this coming. The whole atmosphere of BoG and indeed Fukkatsu no F lacked the seriousness and drama of DB's Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. arcs and DBZ's Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, the Majin Buu arcs. The environment is much smoother and all the way throughout BoG (and indeed, Fukaktsu no F) you feel that there really is no serious threat to the warriors, Earth or the Universe (in BoG's case, because Beerus lacks the tyrannical, evil, genocidal, maniacal characteristics of villains from pretty much all of the previous arcs, such as Vegeta in his early days, Freeza or Cell, and in Fukaktsu no F's case, because Goku and Vegeta had the situation under control all the time and Beerus and Whis were present as well).
Beerus can't be seen as a hero/good guy nor as a bad guy either. He certainly cannot be deemed a "villain". That's why, after so many years of inactivity, Toriyama really put a lot of effort to come up with yet another entirely different character, and the creative process resulted in Beerus, with all of his laid-back/extremely powerful combo characteristics which make him such an enjoyable and lovable character with such great potential in terms of background and character development.
It might be discussed whether or not retelling BoG and reintroducing Beerus and Whis, and indeed the concept of Super Saiya-jin God, pretty much line-by-line and in almost the same exact circumstances although at a different timing (6 months after the defeat of Kid Buu instead of 4 years later) is the right way to go at it, and we might never come to a definitive conclusion, but from the point when we got the info that they BoG and Fukkatsu no F were going to be turned into their own arcs within DBSuper on, it was obvious to all of us that we would only be really introduced to some serious, dramatic new events and characters/villains with extremely high degrees of power in the exploration of the 6th Universe arc. After accepting this fact, we've got to be pretty satisfied with the way they're choosing to distribute the time given to each character and events in these first episodes. The storyline is moving at quite a fast pace, but just the right one. We focused on Goku + Goten/Mr. Satan + Majin Buu in the first episode and on Vegeta + Bulma + Trunks in the second one, and now we got Krillin + #18, while all the time throughout the series being presented with somewhat mysterious/chilling scenes from Beerus and Whis. They'll never change the personality traits of either of them, given how much potential they've got, and we've already confirmed that in these first 3 episodes after witnessing their actions and interactions.
It might be tough for some of us to go through the process of "decanonizing" BoG after having accepted it as a canon, direct sequence in Dragonball's one and only timeline to the events of Majin Buu's arc in DBZ and the 2008 special, but after some hard time I already came to accept the fact that BoG and Fukaktsu no F are no longer canon continuations of the storyline. We already got rid of GT and it has to be considered non-canon, as in, it never "happened", and It would be the ideal thing to just retcon the last 3 episodes of DBZ, with that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub, as whatever happens throughout the Beerus, Freeza and the 6th Universe arcs within DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and I'm not satisfied with that, as by the time we get to the events of the last 3 episodes of DBZ it just doesn't seem or feel like they went through all of that.
I would like to go back, have the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F, the ending of DBZ and GT "removed" from existence as canon direct continuations of the timeline following the Majin Buu arc, and expand upon Beerus, Freeza and the 6th Universe arc (with who-knows how many and how powerful antagonists/villains it will provide us) with the knowledge that we're not just exploring a 10-year gap leading towards something which we've already seen (the last 3 episodes of DBZ), but rather entirely previously unexplored material which will lead us to totally new events in whatever timeline they choose to do it at. That would also have the additional advantage of providing us with the ability to cease from having to care or take into consideration events which have taken place after DBSuper's Beerus, Freeza and the 6th Universe arcs to which we've already been introduced back in 1996. It's still highly debated whether or not they'll go for a retcon of the ending of DBZ, but it would indeed solve any inconsistencies or plot holes and we could have Pan, for example, be born at whatever time they choose, and go down the road of any time-skips to whatever new events they choose in any way they deem to be fit.
I don't know if any of you share the same feeling on the following, but Beerus' temple in BoG provided me with a fantastic and wonderful atmosphere, and I got an even stronger feeling in this third episode of DBSuper. I just love Beerus' house and the whole circumstances in which he interacts with Whis. Although they're following the Beerus/Whis plot almost on a sentence-by-sentence basis when compared to BoG, the entirely new stuff builds up on and expands upon the magnificent sensation and atmosphere Beerus' living headquarters already provided us in the movie. That's the feeling I've got, especially in this third episode.
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dbzfan7 wrote:
sanorin wrote:
DragonHermit wrote:
GT's concepts were at least original...Super doesn't seem like a serious anime at all.
You don't get that anxiety that you had waiting for Goku while fighting Vegeta and Nappa, or Krillin and Gohan sneaking around while Freeza's soldiers patrolled the planet. Nor do we have characters with the motivation of Trunks...
Remember the beginning of the Buu saga? It was mostly slices of life of Gohan, nothing really happened, no tension or anything for like 10 episodes until Kaioshin appeared in the tournament, and even after then, Babidi and Buu were not revealed for 10 more episodes.
In Super we have Beerus, the God of Destruction, from the first episode, and it's obvious he's looking for some action which we'll get in the 5th episode.
The Boo saga began after a huge battle with Cell. So some downtime to explore the new setting is welcome. Also we're at a new age with Gohan being older and generally everyone else aging 7 years. New characters Goten and a grown up Trunks being introduced. A new setting of what happened after the events of Cell and how Mr. Satan became huge.
A better comparison is comparing how Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT started off in comparison to Super, instead of just picking a saga to start with. Boo saga isn't where DBZ started. Personally I feel all the previous anime/manga did a better job setting up than Super. Dragon Ball had Goku be introduced, us meeting Bulma, our quest unveiled to us as well as the first showing of Goku's abilities right off the bat. We then got some settling time with them, but also had some progression on their quest with each episode/chapter.
Dragon Ball Z had us introduced to Raditz who was making Piccolo, the guy who gave Goku a run for his money last time, wet himself in terror. We also get some Goku/Gohan antics in the anime for some introductions. Then the following episode we get the bombshell of Goku being an alien, and this space guy being Goku's brother. Holy crap. We then see Goku get utterly decimated by his brother and then have to work with his greatest enemy Piccolo to rescue his son.
GT was a little more casual, but we still got some things going on. We return to a cool bout between Goku and Oob, seeing how things paid off with them after years of training. We learn there is a whole new set of Dragon Balls (Super has some too, but we have not been introduced to them yet). We then see Goku become a kid (Stupid or not it leaves an impact), and then learn these Dragon Balls will cause the earth to explode.
Super has some sweet moments, and some background stuff with Beerus leading up to a plot. We see Beerus do some cool stuff, but nothing that really leaves a huge impact. He beats up an alien from another world...ok. We hear about Super Saiyan God...kinda. We get some fun times with Goku and Vegeta's families. While nice, that's not leaving me with any impact at all like how the previous series all started. It also has the disadvantage of retelling the past story we knew of, killing some of the new experience for some of us.
Does Super really sound like the most gripping or engaging opening? I personally don't think so. However that isn't what it's going for. For some people they're happy Super decides to let us enjoy a reunion with characters we love. For others they're not happy that the plot is pretty empty and taking a backseat for a while. Then there's some who probably want some more action. Personally I love the down time, but think it probably shouldn't have been shown off this soon. I would rather the story drastically be changed to maybe compensate for the more laid back beginning.
The purpose of the first two family-oriented episodes in DBSuper (although showing us some mysterious/chilling appearances by Beerus) was to reintroduce us properly to Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Bulma, Trunks, Goten, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, #18, Chi Chi, Kaiou-sama, Kibitoshin, Majin Buu and even Mr. Satan after so many years of creative inactivity between 1997 and 2008. We had some character development in the 2008 special and in BoG, but in the new movies they've been doing in this stage of revitalizing Dragonball (the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and Kai) we were presented with the difficulty of proper expansion due to the time restraints typical of a movie, even a longer one like BoG.
I think we can't and shouldn't even compare GT to DBSuper. For many reasons. First of all, GT was created right after the end of DBZ in a rush, it basically took on the worst aspects of the Majin Buu arc in DBZ, by which time Toriyama was already starting to struggle for new interesting ideas worthy of DBZ (which is understandable, after so many incessant years of intensive creative processes to come up with all the events and character backgrounds for all the arcs from DB and DBZ until Majin Buu), Toriyama wasn't even involved, it got rid of fundamental characters with fantastic backgrounds and the overall decision to have a new series begin to air right after the ending of DBZ in 1996, at which time everyone was overly tired of coming up with new ideas, characters and events on a constant basis, was a decision made for commercial purposes, which resulted in something close to a disastrous experience. I'm not a pure GT hater and I think we've already discussed GT's quality, or lack of it, thoroughly throughout the years, and the debate is pretty much tiresome at this point, but comparing it to DBSuper makes utterly no sense to me.
The whole circumstances in which DBSuper is being presented by themselves should be enough to make a clear separation and distinction between the two series, especially taking into account that DBSuper is being created 19 years after DBZ and GT was created right after it. Toriyama had more than a decade to lay back and get rid of the strain and pressure to come up with new ideas and concepts for villains/antagonists and events, hence the quality of the series, regardless of the atmosphere it will put forth or is putting forth, will be obviously and undeniably superior. We could look at the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as the building up of a new creative period for Toriyama and Dragonball which eventually finally led to DBSuper as a full-fledged new series. It's an entire process of revitalizing Dragonball and we need to welcome DBSuper, just as we did BoG and Fukkatsu no F, with open arms. I mean, it's been 18 years since we've had another full-fledged Dragonball series. Some of my friends weren't even born when DBZ ended. It's quite hard to grasp this concept and the enormity of the significance of this event.
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Both Beerus AND Freeza were going to wipe out the Saiya-jin and destroy Planet Vegeta on their own anyway. The way it appears to have happened, Freeza was afraid that there would be a Saiya-jin revolt and/or that the race would produce a Super Saiya-jin to match or overcome his power eventually, and on top of that he was ordered/asked by Beerus to destroy the planet.
Beerus is now officially fully responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs on Earth in the Dragonball Universe and sealing Rou Dai Kaioshin in the Z sword and partially responsible for the genocide of the Saiya-jin. The only major event out of these three is the destruction of Planet Vegeta, and the story remains that Freeza would go further with it anyway even if he hadn't been told by Beerus to do it. Even Zarbon himself expressed his fears over the growing strength of even the lower-class Saiya-jin in the Bardock Special, and Freeza picked up on those comments and took them as a suggestion.
I doubt we'll get more instances of past events to which Beerus will be connected, or for which he was responsible at some point, but even if we get them, it's only fitting, as he's above even the Kaioshin as a deity and surely as a fighter, the second-strongest warrior in the Universe, the God of Destruction and pretty much terrifying to anybody who even knows of his existence. That's just how Beerus and Whis have to be looked at from the moment of their introduction in BoG and now with their reintroduction along the same exact lines in DBSuper: immensely powerful fighters who happen to be deities and above anyone else in the Universe, most certainly including any of the past antagonists/villains (Freeza, Cell and even any form of Majin Buu), any deities AND any of the good guys (Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and Ultimate Gohan included).
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Doctor. wrote:
Like I said earlier, Jouji Yanami sounds even weaker in this episode, which is a shame. He really should quit while he's ahead, this can't be good for him, they could have used the work he did for Kai for that flashback, too. Also no episode next week, dang it, I was excited for Pilaf shenanigans and that promising animation we saw in the preview. I don't know how good the subs I watched were, but I could tell they were significantly better than the ones I watched for the last 2 episodes.
I think this is better than Battle of Gods so far, if we exclude the animation quality. It's doing a better job of showing the daily life of the characters, the interactions have been great, it's doing a MUCH better job of setting up Beerus as a genuine threat and is improving his characterization, since Battle of Gods only showed his playful side, and not his evil one. Whis is being the star of the show for now, though.
Is Vegeta using "ore-sama" again? I thought he stopped using it back in the Boo arc? Either way, I think they're setting it up for Vegeta to be the one who becomes the SSG (or becomes one along with Goku, since Champa is around). The SSG vision Beerus had resembled Vegeta to me, not to mention that I wouldn't find it surprising if Goku refuses the power-up instead of accepting it and then saying it's shit like in BoG.
Shouldn't Kaio have been revived when it was wished for everyone who was killed by Cell to be revived? Or did he refuse? I don't remember, but either way, he shouldn't either a) be dead because he should have been revived or b) talk smack to Goku about being dead, because he refused it. The animation when he was chasing Goku also looked weird, though I don't know if this was intentional or not.
I'll have to wait for better subs to know if Beerus really ordered Freeza to destroy Vegeta, but I doubt it. The other two films, along with Minus, say the contrary, that Freeza destroyed it out of his own will. Hell, in Minus we see Freeza actually making the decision on his own, and there's no mention of Beerus at all. I don't like how they keep using the same short Egyptian-like track for all Beerus scenes, it's starting to get repetitive, they've used it twice in this episode alone.
It was worse than last week's, but good as a whole still. I'm not worried about the episodes of the BoG arc being bad, at least until we get to the Vegeta rage scene, because the film itself was good, and unless they fuck it all up royally, so will this arc. I'll start getting worried once the F arc comes along.
It looks as though Vegeta has indeed regressed in his gradual and incremental evolution from an evil genocidal villain in his early days to a full-fledged family man and good guy in the Majin Buu arc. They're not going to have him kill anybody or do some pretty nasty things, the last instance we've had of really evil stuff Vegeta did was his possession by Babidi and his killing of hundreds of people at the stadium shortly after. By the time of Goku's fight against Kid Buu he goes as far as to acknowledge Kakarotto as the Number 1 Saiya-jin, and seems to have pretty much accepted that fact in the following episodes. We didn't expand on that in the 2008 special or BoG a lot - though we did a bit in Fukkatsu no F -, but in DBSuper we had already seen his regression in the second episode, when he states he has no intention of remaining the second-strongest (although, to be more precise, as a Super Saiya-jin 2, he's below even Ultimate Gohan at this point, so he's not even Number 2 even among the good guys only). Not only did he express his intentions to surpass Kakarotto once again, regaining his full obsession manifested throughout the Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs in DBZ, he stated he wanted to be and was going to be eventually above ANYONE in the Universe (hinting at his upcoming confrontation with Beerus, Freeza and/or Champa). Going back to the "ore-sama" instead of just plain "ore", it just goes to show that regression. It's a good thing to have him reacquire his full obsession to become the strongest in the Universe.
I've always thought that just because you're more of a protagonist in the series than someone else, it doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger than them. That's the case with Vegeta/Gohan in DBSuper, for example. Ultimate Gohan, by the time of the Majin Buu arc, and 6 months later, was high above Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and had a power close to/on par with that of Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku. Vegeta had no chance of overcoming that gap in these 6 months, so by the time of these first episodes Vegeta has to be considered to be below even Gohan. I'm not going to get into another power level debate or generate a list, though. I'm just stating that the main protagonists of DBSuper as far as the "good guys" are concerned are Goku and Vegeta. I've always defended that before Vegeta reached Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F Vegeta had himself reached, or become able to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 himself, putting him fully on par with Goku/Ultimate Gohan at their strongest, and THEN went on to reach the Super Saiya-jin God stage (which builds up on the strongest a particular Saiya-jin is), pretty much following the exact same steps Goku did, although a bit later. The Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 3 thing is just that, a theory; it might well be than the Super Saiya-jin God stage provides any particular Saiya-jin the same abilities and power level even if the previous highest transformation was different in terms of Ki. By the time Vegeta reaches Super Saiya-jin God, and then "absorbs" its characteristics and abilities and becomes able to use them even in his base form, just like Goku did in BoG, he has finally overcome Gohan and managed to skip the gap between that degree/dimension of power and that of Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Beerus and Whis. As in, matching the actual power of Vegeta to his degree of protagonism, when compared to Gohan.
Obviously, having surpassed Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, he has also surpassed the fat version of Majin Buu, Super Saiya-jin Gotenks, Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks, Kid Buu and all the variations of Super Buu as well, although I'm not sure he would be above Vegitto, who is about twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan/Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku. Goku does say that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (Vegitto, or Gogeta) would be enough to beat Beerus, and SSJG Goku is shown to be able to give Beerus some trouble in their fight in BoG, which suggests that Super Saiya-jin God Goku might be above Vegitto in terms of power, but that's highly debatable for more than one reason.
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I don't look at Vegeta's characterization in this to be regression. Vegeta accepted that Goku was better than him because ultimately, their different philosophies is what really sets Goku apart. But make no mistake, Vegeta is still a Saiyan, and even though he's accepted that Goku might be his superior, he's still going to strive to be the best. It's a personal goal for attaining strength. He's still his rival, there's just no fierce animosity anymore. Vegeta is still Vegeta, even as a family man.
Hold on a minute, I didn't say that just because Vegeta is now a family man, had acknowledged Kakarotto as stronger and more gifted than him by the time Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is figthing Kid Buu and his evil has pretty much all but disappeared just like Piccolo's had by the Freeza or Jinzouningen arc, it should mean that he would lose ANY of his personality traits and suddenly would become Mr. Nice Guy all of a sudden. It wouldn't be Vegeta at all if any of that even came close to happen. However, when I used the term "regression" I meant that he not only obviously wants to become stronger and stronger and is a training/fighting maniac, like all pure Saiya-jin, his lines in the second episode when training in the gravity room make it pretty obvious that he had gone back to the whole "surpassing Kakarotto", "I'll show you, Kakarotto", "I'll be above all" routine, which is quite a strong regression to his absolute and not-so-healthy obsession with overcoming everyone and especially Kakarotto. It's not as hard as it was during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, which have seen the pinnacle of this obsession of Vegeta's, but he sounded/seemed pretty much intent on training and surpassing himself and the others to a point comparable to what we had seen at earlier points throughout DBZ, which is something we didn't really see either in the later stages of the Majin Buu arc, in the 2008 special or in BoG, or in Fukkatsu no F to some degree, for that matter.
Of course, when I say it's a not-so-healthy obsession I'm classifying it that way simply because that's what it is: an obsession. However, it's that obsession and utter absolute desire to become the strongest/stronger than Kakarotto to the point or reaching the borders of near-insanity that always pushed Vegeta to overcome his past limits and keep surpassing both himself and others and reaching new heights all the time throughout DBZ. That's basically the feeling we got from his lines in episode 2 of DBSuper when he was training.
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I've watched this episode twice now, here's some quick thoughts I've gathered-
-Man, the animation was really not great this episode. I barely minded the animation in the first two episodes. Every shot obviously didn't look as great as it can be, but for a TV size budget production, I thought up to now it was more than acceptable. This episode definitely fell down some steps though. The first two episodes I thought most people were crazy for bagging on the animation. This episode, I completely understand anyone who has a bone to pick with it. I expect more episodes down the line will look like this, but I hope it's not too many more.
-I'm glad we're getting more Beerus and Whis traveling scenes. Always thought Whis' travel animation was so cool in Battle of Gods, and I'm glad we're getting alternate perspectives on what that looks like now. I dig all those bits a lot.
-I'm also glad we're getting more Kaioshin/Elder Kai conversations. I loved seeing those characters again in Battle of Gods, but was slightly disappointed that it was just a short scene in the beginning and the end, but that's all they were needed for really. Here I've been highly enjoying all of the extra time. I'm expecting at a point focus will shift away from that when Beerus makes it to Earth, and that will be fine. For now though, glad we're getting more moments with those characters.
-I don't mind that the conversation/description of who Beerus is was given to the Supreme Kai's to discuss this time around. However, what I don't like is how they emphasize more on what a bad job he does, and not how appropriate his role in the Universe is. I thought in the Battle of Gods extended cut, King Kai did a perfect job of conveying to Goku who Beerus is, and why he's so dangerous, but at the same time making sure to put emphasis on the fact that "yeah he's dangerous, but he helps create balance, he's a very essential part in this whole system, can't have life without death, etc." Definitely helped give the audience the impression that this may be our antagonist for the story right now, but he's not really a "bad guy" or a "villain" in the classical sense. I don't mind that they decided to mention this time around that Beerus' process of choosing planets is frowned upon, because it is and that's never mentioned in the film, but yeah, that was the big emphasis there and I feel like the audience loses out on the key factor of "we need this guy for balance" and it ultimately makes Beerus feel more like a bad guy (at the moment) here than he was in the film. Not a fan of that, would love it if they revisit the dialogue between King Kai and Goku from the film to reinform everyone that Beerus has a pretty legit position in the order of things.
-Always love when they call back to the older events from the series, definitely continues to help make Super feel more like an extended piece of the show, rather than it's own one off thing. Having King Kai remind Goku of the Cell incident was cool for that, and just for the fact to let the audience know that yes, the writers do remember that King Kai was without his planet up until now. I don't mind that they've been reusing old footage either. Again, I feel like that helps a lot with the immersion aspect and helping weave Super into the original series, even if the choice for it is solely due to production costs. Reminds me of when they would use PS1 style flash backs in Metal Gear Solid 4, or when they would use 8-bit flash backs to the original Kid Icarus in Kid Icarus Uprising. Just reminds the audience "oh right, this new story is meant to be apart of this old thing. Feels great to be home again!"
-Love the Oracle Fish character, glad she(?) got more than three lines in this version of events. Enjoyed the whole convo about the three meals and such.
-I generally don't mind that they've been working Beerus into all of these old pieces of history. Once again, I feel like it just helps immerse and weave this new story into all of the older stuff, and make it feel like a much more organic part of everything else than most of the other movies and specials. Most problems people seem to have with this stuff I think can do away with a quick explanation. Beerus was responsible for the dinosaurs going extinct. However, he's also fairly lazy and careless, so it's not much of a surprise that he seems to have missed a decent number of them. Beerus may have asked told, commanded, whatever context they put it in, Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta. However, just because he told Freeza to do it doesn't mean that's why Freeza decided to do it. Would any of us really put it past Freeza to go "feh! I'm not going to destroy the Saiyan's because you want me to, I'm going to do this because I personally want them gone!"? The Z-sword thing is the only bit I'm indifferent on so far. On one hand, it's cool to finally have that mystery resolved. I've always wondered what "being even more powerful and fearsome than Majin Buu" could have had the stuff to trap a Supreme Kai away. On the other hand, when that anecdote is first mentioned, it's within the midst of all the turmoil and fear the characters currently feel toward Majin Buu at that time. It definitely was a neat thing to sort of leave up to the imaginaiton of the viewer, trying to think of a monster ourselves that could be even scarier and crazier than Majin Buu. I kind of liked always having that, but at the same time it's hard to argue against wanting to further weave Beerus into things.
-Despite the animation for the rest of the episode having gone down the tubes, one thing I really enjoyed was how they reanimated the Goku vs Freeza fight. I thought it looked even better than the reanimated version that was in the film. That surprised me, it was a really quick, but super awesome bit. The music during that scene, and during the subsequent one when Beerus and Whis are discussing plans to track down the Saiyans, was also pretty rad. Not a lot of music from this series has stood out too loudly to me so far, in a good or bad way. But that was one of a few moments over the course of these first three episodes that I really went "oh wow, digging the music, you can really tell things are ramping up now!"
-I'm already loving the new location for Bulma's birthday party. Wasn't sure what to think when I first heard about it, but I'm on board with it now. It's already proven that this setting will provide a lot of new, interesting, fun, and most of all diverse character moments from what Battle of Gods had, as proven already by the Roshi/Oolong binoculars scene.
-Overall, this to me felt like the true first episode of the "Battle of Gods" arc. I had a much different mindset in mind watching this one versus the first two episodes. The first two episodes felt like these all brand new "time of peace episodes" that took place post-Buu pre-BoG. This episode was almost entirely comprised of newly adapted versions of Battle of Gods stuff. Every step of this episode I found myself thinking about how much more or less I enjoyed certain parts compared to the film, where the first two episodes just encompassed way more new stuff that I felt along for the ride for. This isn't a critcism at all, just an interesting observation so far. I'm definitely a lot more curious now how the rest of this arc will end up playing out.
-I love the look of the animation for episode 4 so far! It's weird, crazy, and very different. It has a weird allure to it that I'm into. Doesn't look like the type of animation I would want the whole series to be in, but I'm totally down for a few episodes of Super in that style. I'm surprised I haven't seen it really brought up, but the number one thing the animation style in that preview reminded me of was all the Goten & Trunks vs. Hitler bits in Fusion Reborn.
Spoiler:View
It had actually already been pointed out. The streamlined parts we see in the preview for episode 4 of DBSuper reminded most people, including me, of the parts in Movie 12 where we see not only Goten + Trunks vs Hitler and his army but also Mr. Satan vs zombies, among others, in pretty much the same light. I definitely like the way at least Beerus looks in Kaiou-sama's planet drawn that way. It provides the animation and drawing with a much stronger touch than it would do otherwise, but it's not something that is meant to be used all the way throughout the entirety of the series, though. Episode 2 won't be entirely like that, though, as we've seen in the episode's preview. I wonder if they'll keep using that streamlined bits on upcoming episodes, and just why they chose to do it for episode 4 of DBSuper and indeed why just in parts of it. I guess it's just another instance in which we'll just have to wait and see until we finally get to see the episode itself.
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johnnygodto wrote:
Why did Beerus say he exterminated the dinosaurs? They still exist in DBZ.
He most likely randomly went to Earth millions of years ago back at a time the dinosaurs were still the dominant species on the planet. As he himself says both in BoG and in episode 3 of DBSuper, they took what he deemed a "rude" attitude towards him and he, according to his own words, "annihilated" them. A few survived, obviously. He'd have a hard time in terms of time to go around and kill every single one of them without just blowing the planet up with every single living thing on it, including ALL of the dinosaurs. The ones before me who established a parallel between the genocide of the Saiya-jin by Freeza were accurate, it's basically the same thing. ALMOST all of the Saiya-jin were wiped out, 4 (or 5, if you include Tarble, and I'm only including canon stuff, leaving out the movies, obviously) survived. We can still consider it to be a genocide though, just like Nazi Germany created the Holocaust and committed a genocide against the jews, while millions of them still survived (just to mention one instance of genocide). You can't really wipe out a race completely in practical terms unless you kill each and every single one of them almost on an one-by-one basis.
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goku the krump dancer wrote:
Seeing as though we're most likely getting an entire episode dedicated to the Pilaf shenanigans, I hope its funnier this time around.. Though I will say after watching BoG in english most of the gang's segment was a lot funnier… maybe its the language barrier that prevents his jokes to fully come across.. or maybe its just that I haven't watched The Original DB in Japanese yet aside from Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle so I don't really have a grasp of Pilaf's persona in that language. Cuz I don't have this problem with anyone else.
Don't know if everybody else, or the majority of you, feel the same, but back in the early 2000s and throughout that decade I was an intense critic of America's version of DBZ, especially due to the change in the music, change in the dialogue, mixing of episodes and reducing their number, childish exchanges of speech, etc., etc. I mean, it was like watching an entirely different show, except for the original animation itself. I still hold that view, although not so strongly, especially after FUNImation decided to partially keep the original BGM, and I believe that it's just absolutely necessary to keep the original Japanese music in DB and DBZ, including that of the opening and closing themes, to be able to achieve and comprehend Dragonball's entire fantastic atmosphere.
As in almost everything, the original is the best. From over a decade ago I refrained from watching DB or DBZ in any other language than in Japanese, and I had access to a number of dubs, especially that of my own country (Portugal), and as a result of years and years of watching the original Japanese episodes over and over on an almost daily basis while keeping an eye on the subtitles, by now I pretty much don't need any subtitles to understand what's being said, most likely like most of you. As a consequence of that, I've also came to learn quite a large chunk of Japanese without even realizing it.
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irreality wrote:
soulnova wrote:
make up comes from both parents. We know so far that King Vegeta was the strongest before Prince Vegeta was born... they were the only two true Elite warriors, as Toriyama stated. Now, we know Vegeta and Tarble are also shorter than the average Saiyan, even though their father seemed to be as tall as Goku/Bardock... meaning they most likely got that trait from their mother. I mean... Tarble is almost the same height as Krillin. Holy shit. We don't know how strong she was, but I guess King Vegeta would pick a strong Queen to give him strong heirs... and yet, I have started to suspect that perhaps she secretly/unknowingly had some diluted Tsufurunjin ascendance that manifested HARD on Tarble (weak, soft/nice and freaking small). It would explain why the King would send him away. It would be scandalous among Saiyans if it came to light. For all intents and purposes, Tarble didn't exist.
Neat Theory. :) My theory was just that Vegeta was treated poorly as a kid with Freeza and didn't get fed enough by Saiyan standards and his growth was stunted (or was maybe lacking vitamins, who knows). Trunks ends up being a more normal height, after all, even though Dr. Brief isn't all that tall, either.
Tarble, being weak and abandoned in some remote planet, had an even harder time growing up. Maybe ths is too bleak for Dragon Ball.
The way genetics work, you can get a short child even if (both of) their parents are tall/normal-heighted, and the other way around. We need to take into account we're talking about a fictional, Dragonball universe, which has more than one instance of presenting us with laws and events that deviate from that of the real world. However, most people tend to retain the physical characteristics not from their immediate parents, but from their grandparents, in fact, especially in terms of eye color. It could be that King Vegeta's and/or Vegeta's mother's parents were physically short, just like Vegeta is. This theory is further strengthened by the fact that also Tarble himself is extremely small, which is a rarity for the normal standards of Saiya-jin, who can't be really deemed giants but then to have at least a normal humanoid height or slightly above that average.
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Has anyone thought about/made a comparison between Beerus as an antagonist and the past villains from DB and DBZ in terms of the seriousness of the environment surrounding them?
Obviously, taking the movies (Brolly, #13, Tullece, Slug, Cooler, Janenba, etc.) and other non-canon villains out of the picture, we're reduced to the main villains of all of DB's later arcs and the entirety of DBZ's arcs: Piccolo Daimao (Piccolo Daimao arc), Piccolo (Piccolo Jr. arc), Vegeta (Saiya-jin arc), Freeza (Freeza arc), #17 and #18 (Jinzouningen arc), Cell (Cell arc) and Majin Buu (Majin Buu arc). One of the things, perhaps the most important one, which made Dragonball so fantastic was not only the character development and background, the interactions between characters, the values of friendship/goodness/protection presented in the series or even the insane and mind-boggling fighting, was the entire atmosphere of hopelessness, despair, seriousness and violence. After so many years of creative inactivity by Toriyama, between 1996 (last episodes of DBZ) and 2013 (BoG), and taking into account the entire new audience DBZ is intended to conquer just like it did the ones in their 30's back in the 80's and 90's, and after having come up with pretty much every potential idea or concept for villains, events, fights, stages and characters, Toriyama decided to go down the road of presenting us with an entirely new concept for an antagonist (and that's the most appropriate term to describe Beerus, as he certainly cannot be deemed "evil" or a "villain").
Sure enough, if we hadn't seen BoG or if it never existed, and we were now being introduced to Beerus/Whis for the very first time in these first episodes of DBSuper, the first three episodes provided us of scenes which could be deemed chilling or in the very least mysterious, indicating an upcoming extremely powerful antagonist was on his way to meet Goku and the others and cause trouble.
However, even so, even if you were by now anticipating major trouble on Earth for Goku and the others against Beerus, you certainly didn't see Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Majin Buu/Super Buu/Kid Buu in this light. Piccolo Daimao was the embodiment of evil with psychopathic and sadistic tendencies. Freeza was presented as a galactic overlord with a (confirmed) reputation of enslaving, torturing and killing entire races of beings, conquering planets, committing genocides, murdering people just because they're standing there, and was pretty much the very definition of evil + egocentrism + narcissism. He was a sadistic maniac who went as far as to kill Vegeta, Dende and even violently murdering Goku's best friend, Krillin, right in front of his eyes, by merely and literally blowing him up. Vegeta was slightly paranoid, ruthless and evil, a killing machine, arrogantly proud, a smaller version of Freeza (having been molded/influenced by the latter), and he murdered his long-time companion just because of failing to execute someone. Cell was presented to us a huge monster who absorbed the living shit out of millions of people through his tail and eventually became convinced of his own perfection and power, going as far as to state that "it was actually an honor to become a fraction his power" when considering his victims. Majin Buu, in his fat version, was presented as a child-like chubby magical beast who in a matter of minutes proceeded to partially blind Dabura, the King of the Demon Realm, and knocking him out with a brutal kick, then he beat Kaioshin to a pulp and blew Gohan away with a massive shockwave, and ultimately survived intact to Vegeta's life-ending suicidal explosion which was meant to vaporize him, rendering the move totally pointless. After that he went on to kill and eat millions of people. In his Super Buu variation, he annihilated the ENTIRE population of Earth after counting each and every one of the humans, with a single martial arts move, after having been suggested to do so by Piccolo. Kid Buu was a sociopath whose only purpose was to cause huge volumes of destruction by annihilating entire planets and solar systems with his massive, huge power, for no reason other than because it was just fun for him.
After these descriptions, can you really picture Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell or Kid Buu talking politely, having a laid-back attitude, providing the viewers with a few briefly comic lines and appearing naked while taking an innocent shower, like Beerus?
This has nothing to do at all with power itself. Piccolo Daimao is tens of times less powerful by virtually anyone in the Saiya-jin arc, Vegeta is tens of times less powerful than Freeza during the Freeza arc, Freeza was easily defeated by Mirai no Trunks, who couldn't handle #17 and #18, who in turn were no match for second-stage Cell, let alone his perfect form; Perfect Cell, on the other hand, was no match for Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, who in turn was weaker than Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta when he fought Majin Buu. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku was stronger than the fat version of Majin Buu and the first version of Super Buu. Ultimate Gohan is about as strong as SSJ3 Goku, who nonetheless was weaker than the two strongest versions of Super Buu, who was nowhere near Vegitto, who was about twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan.
If we hadn't even seen BoG or heard a single thing about it, we would probably by now be mysteriously anticipating an extremely powerful YET AMUSING antagonist to the good guys back on Earth. In the process of revitalization of Dragonball, with Kai, the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and now with DBSuper, the entire atmosphere lacks the seriousness/darkness/violence which was present throughout the last two arcs of DB and the entirety of DBZ. Whether that's a good thing or not, it's subject to debate. I personally am a Dragonball maniac because of a number of factors, but the degree or amount of violence, desperate circumstances, drastic transformations and mind-blowing fights was what made the show so unrealistically fantastic. If you add an extremely well-developed storyline, a solid and intricate plot and more-than-interesting character backgrounds and interactions to it, you end up with what DBZ was.
I'm not asking you if you think DBSuper will live up to that. I'm saying that, in my view, it's not supposed to live up to it, that's not the point anymore. We won't be getting murders, blood and guts, violence and hopelessly dramatic circumstances like we did before. Those of us who were present in the 80's and 90's and followed each step of DB and DBZ as it happened about 20 years ago can't (and shouldn't) be expecting that. We need to view DBSuper and all it contains and has to offer us as Dragonball just the same, but with an entire different perspective to it, so that we can first view it, then accept it and then add it to the rest of Dragonball history, which is pretty much just untouchable. This is the only way not to be disappointed with ANY aspect of DBSuper, as a hardcore DBZ fan. Hopefully most, or indeed all of us will be capable of that.
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Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Lord Beerus is already shown to be on Kai's planet from the NEP of Ep 4. So does that mean we can assume that the big SS3 fight happens in the first half of Episode 5 and the second half is the start of Lord Beerus's shenanigans on Earth? I like the pace this is going at. Then Episode 6-7 can continue's the Earth stuff including Vegeta's infamous rage boost then Episode 8 Goku lands and they talk about SSG etc and Episode 9-10 is the SSG ritual and vs Beerus and wraps up the arc.
I hope they extend the Super Saiya-jin 3 vs Beerus fight by at least two or three more minutes when compared to BoG. In the movie, Goku lays a few punches, drills a hole through Kaiou-sama's planet and gets knocked out by a single pressure-point blow to the neck. I don't expect, nor do I want to - in order to demonstrate, yet again, Beerus' massive power, far beyond the leagues of SSJ3 Goku - see Goku giving Beerus any trouble, though. I want it to remain a one-sided battle just as it was in BoG. Having a new full-fledged series provides us with the possiblity of expanding on previous events seen in the movie(s) without the time restrictions typical of a movie, even a prolonged one like BoG.
I view your assessment of which events could take place in each of the following episodes as fairly accurate. I don't understand, though, why you deemed Vegeta's rage boost as "infamous". It's one of the best scenes/events from BoG, one which has the potential of bringing us some expansion and have Vegeta attain a new stage (we've been thoroughly discussing his ability to reach Super Saiya-jin 3 just days ago, no matter how far-fetched it may seem).
If you consider the first two episodes of DBSuper to be mainly focused on family-oriented events - although showing Beerus/Whis interactions on an alternate but constant basis -, then you could postulate that it was after the ending of the second episode - when Beerus has that "vision" of a new fighter and comes up with the name "Super Saiya-jin God" - and throughout the entirety of the third episode that we really got/get into the leading up to the confrontation between him and Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Majin Buu, Piccolo, #18 and Tenshinhan, just like in BoG. The Beerus arc within DBSuper could be done in 10 episodes (or 8, if you don't count the first smooth, family-focused two), leaving another 2 or 3 episodes to make up for the off-screen events between the BoG movie and the Fukkatsu no F movie (namely, Vegeta's reaching of SSJG and his and Goku's decision to go off and train with Whis). Then the Freeza arc in DBSuper would receive a fairly similar "treatment": another 10 episodes or so. By the time we reach 20/25 episodes in DBSuper we can move on to the exploration of the 6th Universe arc, which I would bet is going to be the one with the most episodes dedicated to it, as it's actually the only one with entirely new concepts, characters, villains and events, by which time I at least hope the series will undertake a more serious, dramatic tone.
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
So close to giving up on Super. Animation is piss poor not to mention the dialogue, story, etc. is straight garbage. I don't know how y'all aren't raising hell with Toei and AK at this point. The manga sucks too but definitely not as bad as the series.
It's really sad (and extremely frustrating) to see a heavy hitter like Dragonball get the C treatment.
I guess it's pointless to make another speech on how we need to view the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball which we've been undergoing in the last few years - which led to another full-fledged series after 18 years (!) - to you.
Dragonball is not just about the animation's quality. Throughout DB and DBZ, there were more than 10 teams of animators behind the episodes, working and delivering the episodes on an alternate basis. Some of them were horribly designed/animated, the others were absolutely fantastic. The newest animation (Kai's opening and closing, Episode of Bardock, the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and now DBSuper) is being done in entirely new circumstances. If you don't like it, try giving it another shot and rewatch the three episodes we've got in a row; give it some time, think about it, put it into perspective, your opinion might change and you might just come to accept DBSuper the way it's meant to be accepted.
As far as the dialogue goes, taking into account that this is an almost sentence-by-sentence retelling of the BoG movie, what exactly did you expect? I assume you didn't like BoG either, or that you were heavily disappointed at having the movie's events retold as an arc in an entirely new series.
This, DBSuper, and indeed BoG and Fukaktsu no F, should in no way be considered to be being given anything close to the "C treatment". You need to calm down and understand that the degree of drama and violence we've had throughout the last arcs in DB and the entirety of DBZ will no longer be present here; that shouldn't mean, however, that there is no place for extremely good character development, background and interactions. This is 2015, not the 80's or the 90's. If that's your worry, be sure at least that we'll get to some more serious stuff and mind-boggling fights pretty soon (sooner than you might think).
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VintageSaiyan wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
VintageSaiyan wrote:
So close to giving up on Super. Animation is piss poor not to mention the dialogue, story, etc. is straight garbage. I don't know how y'all aren't raising hell with Toei and AK at this point. The manga sucks too but definitely not as bad as the series.
It's really sad (and extremely frustrating) to see a heavy hitter like Dragonball get the C treatment.
I guess it's pointless to make another speech on how we need to view the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball which we've been undergoing in the last few years - which led to another full-fledged series after 18 years (!) - to you.
I don't need to know how to "view the entire process of revitalization of Dragonball". I'm well aware of whats going on - another cash grab.
Dragonball is not just about the animation's quality. Throughout DB and DBZ, there were more than 10 teams of animators behind the episodes, working and delivering the episodes on an alternate basis. Some of them were horribly designed/animated, the others were absolutely fantastic. The newest animation (Kai's opening and closing, Episode of Bardock, the 2008 special, BoG, Fukkatsu no F and now DBSuper) is being done in entirely new circumstances. If you don't like it, try giving it another shot and rewatch the three episodes we've got in a row; give it some, think about it, put it into perspective, your opinion might change and you might just come to accept DBSuper the way it's meant to be accepted.
How is it meant to be accepted? It's uninspired and lazy. It's the C-treatment. Look at what UFOtable did with the Fate Stay remake and come back to me. And for the record, I can always get by shitty animation if everything else is on point. But it's not, in fact, it's worse.
This, DBSuper, and indeed BoG and Fukaktsu no F, should in no way be considered to be being given anything close to the "C treatment". You need to calm down and understand that the degree of drama and violence we've had throughout the last arcs in DB and the entirety of DBZ will no longer be present here; that shouldn't mean, however, that there is no much for extremely good character development, background and interactions. This is 2015, not the 80's or the 90's. If that's your worry, be sure at least that we'll get to some more serious stuff and mind-boggling fights pretty soon (sooner than you might think).
What does it being 2015 have to do with anything? Yeah it's not the 90's - but I'm also not seven years old and unfortunately not part of the new target audience.
Neither am I, but I'm taking the movies/specials they've been creating, and now DBSuper, with open arms because I realize the extremely high potential some of the concepts they've been introducing have. Of course it doesn't compare to the old DB and DBZ arcs, characters and events. I've been saying that's untouchable stuff for a long time and on more than one occasion. I like drama, seriousness, blood and guts, violent fights, I'm over 30 years of age and I grew with Dragonball my entire childhood, adolescence and, indeed, life. However, I'm not just taking DBSuper or BoG or Fukkatsu no F and throwing them to the garbage the way you seem to be doing or close to be doing, and I'll never do it. I WOULD do it, even being officially Dragonball, if they happened to present us with some horribly-animated, plot-lacking moronic series with no degree of seriousness or respect towards Dragonball's untouchable history at all, but that's not what's happening and that's not what will be happening in the future. Consider Toriyama is involved again this time around. That alone should guarantee the quality of the series, at least on some aspects (for you and for every other Dragonball fan).
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Regarding animation, throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, my favorite design was that of, for the sake of example, episodes 142 of DB, 4 of DBZ, 31 of DBZ, 81 of DBZ, 103 of DBZ, 278 of DBZ AND the one of episodes 118 of DB, 146 of DB, 28 of DBZ, 34 of DBZ and 64 of DBZ. The worst animation was that of episodes 144 of DB, 6 of DBZ, 33 of DBZ, 51 of DBZ, 94 of DBZ, 121 of DBZ, 126 of DBZ or 158 of DBZ. This is just to name a few and for the sake of examples.
Another piece of extremely good animation was that of episode 142 in DBZ (Piccolo vs Cell). Piccolo's power-up on that episode is pretty much absolutely fucking fantastic animation-wise. You can see that team of animators in episode 164 of DBZ again, for that matter. When Mirai no Trunks has a clash with Cell the scene looks absolutely fantastic yet again.
Some other animations in episodes are either badly-drawn but good for the pace/velocity of a battle or was well-drawn but lacked a lot of movement, for example.
There are NUMEROUS other animation teams behind DB and DBZ, most of them of pretty high quality. None of this applies or compares to the animation they've been using in the recent movies/specials, Kai's opening/interval/closing and DBSuper. It's an entirely different concept.
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Sorry to cut your discussion in half and go back to the main topic of the thread, but there's something I'd like to share with you and possibly get your opinions on.
I usually avoid discussing or listing power levels, either of my own creation or of others', but this time I'd like to focus exactly and only on that.
I'm going to divide the list of power levels by major arc, movies and specials, and then present either a top 10 or top 20 of all-time fighters. I'm going to include SOME of the movies in the top 10/20 (but not GT), even though they're "what-if" scenarios and cannot be considered to be a direct canon continuation of the series' timeline.
I'm not going to include the figures (either in the Scouter's measuring units or in Kilis, or in any other measuring unit), as from the end of the Freeza arc on we don't possess any official information and can only guess.
Sorry again in anticipation for how long or large the post will look like, but it's preferable to do it this way than to divide it between several different ones, and I really want to include everything you'll be seeing here.
So, here we go:
From strongest to weakest:
Piccolo Daimao arc:
1 - Goku (after drinking Sacred Water)
2 - Piccolo Daimao (young)
3 - Piccolo Daimao (old)
4 - Drum
5 - Goku (before drinking Sacred Water)
6 - Tenshinhan
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Tambourine
9 - Average Piccolo Daimao son
10 - Cymbal
11 - Muten Roshi (old)
12 - Mutaito-sama
Piccolo Jr. arc:
1 - Goku (without weighted clothing)
2 - Piccolo
3 - Kami
4 - Mr. Popo
5 - Tenshinhan
6 - Krillin
7 - Yajirobe
8 - Yamcha
9 - Tao Pai Pai
Saiya-jin arc:
1 - Vegeta (Oozaru)
2 - Goku Kaio-Ken x4
3 - Goku Kaio-Ken x3
4 - Vegeta
5 - Goku Kaio-Ken x2
6 - Goku Kaio-Ken x1
7 - Gohan (Oozaru)
8 - Goku (base against Nappa)
9 - Goku (suppressed Ki against Nappa)
10 - Nappa
11 - Gohan (when performing Masenko against Nappa)
12 - Piccolo (at his strongest against Nappa)
13 - Tenshinhan (when performing Kikoho against Nappa)
14 - Kaiou-sama
15 - Average low-class Saiya-jin
16 - Enma Daiou
17 - Piccolo (when performing second Makankosappo against Raditz)
18 - Yamcha (when performing Kamehameha against Saibaiman)
19 - Krillin (at his strongest against Saibaimen)
20 - Piccolo (when performing first Makankosappo against Raditz)
21 - Gohan (enraged against Raditz)
22 - Piccolo (against Saibaimen)
23 - Raditz
24 - Saibaimen
25 - Krillin (suppressed Ki against Saibaimen)
26 - Gohan (against Nappa)
27 - Goku (when performing Kamehameha against Raditz)
28 - Gohan (semi-enraged inside the capsule)
29 - Chaozu (against Nappa)
30 - Goku (without weighted clothing against Raditz)
31 - Piccolo (without weighted clothing against Raditz)
32 - Goku (with weighted clothing against Raditz)
33 - Goku (with weighted clothing against Raditz)
Freeza arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - Freeza 100%
3 - Freeza 70%
4 - Freeza 50%
5 - Goku Kaio-Ken x20 (against Freeza)
6 - Freeza 33%
7 - Goku Kaio-Ken x10 (against Freeza)
7 - Freeza (in his third form)
8 - Freeza (in his second form)
9 - Vegeta (after last Zenkai)
10 - Piccolo (after fusion with Nail)
11 - Freeza (in his first form)
12 - Vegeta (against Jeice)
13 - Goku (base against Freeza)
14 - Goku Kaio-Ken x3 (against Ginyu)
15 - Goku Kaio-Ken x2 (against Ginyu)
16 - Ginyu
17 - Goku Kaio-Ken x1 (against Ginyu)
18 - Goku (base against Jeice and Burter)
19 - Jeice
20 - Burter
21 - Nail
22 - Piccolo (after training with Kaiou-sama)
23 - Recoome
24 - Vegeta (against Recoome)
25 - Zarbon (transformed)
26 - Vegeta (against Kiwi and Dodoria)
27 - Zarbon
28 - Dodoria
29 - Gohan (against Recoome)
30 - Kiwi
31 - Gohan (after power-unlocking by Saichorou-sama)
32 - Krillin (after power-unlocking by Saichorou-sama)
33 - Goku (suppressed Ki against Jeice and Burter)
34 - Average warrior-type Namek-sei-jin
35 - Krillin (when arriving on Namek)
36 - Gohan (when arriving on Namek)
37 - Average warrior-type Namek-sei-jin (suppressed Ki)
38 - Muuri
Jinzouningen & Cell arcs:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
2 - Cell (in his Perfect form after receiving Zenkai)
3 - Cell (in his Perfect form at full power against Gohan)
4 - Cell (in his Perfect form)
5 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan
7 - Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai Trunks
8 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
9 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks
10 - Cell (in his second form)
11 - Piccolo (at the Cell Games)
12 - Cell (in his first form after absorbing millions of humans)
13 - #16
14 - Piccolo (after fusing with Kami)
15 - #17
16 - #18
17 - Cell Juniors
18 - Cell (in his first form)
19 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
20 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against #19)
21 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Trunks)
22 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
23 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
24 - King Cold
25 - Freeza
26 - Piccolo (against Dr. Gero)
27 - Dr. Gero
28 - Gohan (before turning SSJ)
29 - #19
30 - Tenshinhan
31 - Krillin
32 - Yamcha
Majin Buu arc:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Vegitto
2 - Vegitto (base)
3 - Super Buu (with Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (with Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu
6 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Majin Buu (after absorbing the strongest of the Kaioshin)
9 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
10 - Super Buu (with Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
11 - Super Buu
12 - Evil Buu
13 - Majin Buu (in his fat form)
14 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
15 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
16 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
17 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
18 - Dabura
19 - Kaioshin
20 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku
21 - Piccolo
22 - Paiku-han
23 - #18
24 - Kibito
25 - Gotenks
26 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
27 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
Movie 1:
1 - Gohan
2 - Garlic Jr. (transformed)
3 - Garlic Jr.
3 - Goku (without weighted clothing)
4 - Piccolo (without weighted clothing)
5 - Goku (with weighted clothing)
6 - Piccolo (with weighted clothing)
7 - Kami
8 - Krillin
Movie 3:
1 - Tullece (after eating fruit of the tree)
2 - Goku Kaio-Ken x10
3 - Gohan (Oozaru)
4 - Goku Kaio-Ken x4
5 - Tullece
6 - Goku Kaio-Ken x3
7 - Goku Kaio-Ken x2
8 - Piccolo
9 - Goku Kaio-Ken x1
10 - Goku (base)
11 - Gohan
12 - Average member of Tullece' Crusher Corps
13 - Tenshinhan
14 - Krillin
15 - Yamcha
16 - Chaozu
Movie 4:
1 - Gigi Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - Slug
3 - Goku Kaio-Ken x4
4 - Goku (base)
5 - Piccolo
6 - Gohan
7 - 4 main Slug's henchmen
8 - Krillin
Movie 5:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
2 - Cooler (in his fifth form)
3 - Cooler (in his fourth form)
4 - Goku Kaio-Ken x20
5 - Goku Kaio-Ken x10
6 - Piccolo
7 - Goku (base)
8 - Sauzaa
9 - Neiz
10 - Doore
11 - Gohan
12 - Krillin
Movie 6:
1 - Metal Cooler(s)
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Piccolo
5 - Gohan
6 - Krillin
Movie 7:
1 - Super #13
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
5 - #13
6 - Piccolo
7 - Gohan
8 - #15
9 - #14
10 - Krillin
Movie 8:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Brolly
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
5 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
6 - Piccolo
7 - Krillin
8 - King Vegeta
9 - Brolly (at birth)
10 - Paragas
11 - Goku (at birth)
Movie 9:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
2 - Bojack
3 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Gohan
4 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta
5 - Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks
6 - Piccolo
7 - 4 Bojack's henchmen
8 - Tenshinhan
9 - Krillin
10 - Yamcha
Movie 10:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Brolly
2 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
3 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
4 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
5 - Krillin
6 - Brolly (base)
Movie 11:
1- Super Saiya-jin Full Power Bio Brolly
2 - #18
3 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
4 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
5 - Krillin
6 - Bio Brolly (base)
Movie 12:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Gogeta
2 - Janenba
3 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
4 - Ultimate Gohan
5 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
7 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
8 - Paiku-han
9 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
10 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
11 - Freeza
Movie 13:
1 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
2 - Ultimate Gohan
3 - Hildegarn
4 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
5 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
6 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
7 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
8 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
OVA Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiya-jin:
1 - Hatchiyakku
2 - Super Saiya-jin Goku
3 - Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
4 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
5 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
6 - Cooler
7 - Freeza
8 - Piccolo
9 - Slug
10 - Tullece
Bardock Special:
1 - Freeza
2 - Bardock (Oozaru)
3 - Toma (Oozaru)
4 - Other members of Bardock's team (Oozaru)
5 - Zarbon
6 - Dodoria
7 - Bardock
8 - Vegeta (as a child)
9 - Nappa
10 - Toma
11 - Elite Freeza soldiers
12 - Average Kanassa fighters
13 - Goku (at birth)
Trunks Special:
1 - #17
2 - #18
3 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks (after Gohan's death)
4 - Super Saiya-jin Gohan
5 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks (for the first time)
Movie 14:
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with power of all other SSJ's)
5 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
6 - Ultimate Gohan
7 - Majin Buu
8 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
9 - Super Saiya-jin Gotenks
10 - Kibitoshin
11 - Piccolo
12 - #18
13 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (against Freeza)
14 - Super Saiya-jin Trunks
15 - Super Saiya-jin Goten
16 - Freeza (flashback)
17 - Tenshinhan
18 - Krillin
19 - King Vegeta
20 - Vegeta (as a child)
Movie 15:
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Goku (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
7 - Vegeta (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
8 - Freeza (in his fourth form after training)
9 - Freeza (in his first form after training)
10 - Ultimate Gohan
11 - Piccolo
12 - #18
13 - Freeza (in his mechanized form)
14 - Freeza (in his first form)
15 - Tenshinhan
16 - Sorbet
17 - Tagoma
18 - Shisami
19 - Krillin
20 - Muten Roshi
Since DBSuper is going to basically retell the BoG and Fukkatsu no F movies pretty much in the same circumstances although at a different timing, I've chosen not to include it here, as it would basically be an amalgamation of the Movie 14 and Movie 15 ones.
All-time overall Top 20:
1 - Whis
2 - Beerus
3 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
4 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
7 - Goku (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
8 - Vegeta (base with the abilities and power of Super Saiya-jin God)
9 - Super Saiya-jin Vegitto
9 - Super Saiya-jin Goku (with power of all other SSJ's)
10 - Vegitto
11 - Super Saiya-jin Gogeta
12 - Super Buu (with Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
13 - Super Buu (with Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
14 - Kid Buu
15 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
16 - Ultimate Gohan
17 - Majin Buu (after absorbing the strongest of the Kaioshin)
18 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
19 - Super Buu (with Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
20 - Super Buu
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Doctor. wrote:
Golden Freeza is superior to both SSGSSs when he's at full power, both Goku and Freeza admit that.
Yes, but I've deliberately chosen to put him below both SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta because of the time restraints he experiences when using the form, which eventually cause him to lose to both of them.
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I'm still having a hard time whenever I think about the decision to retell BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs within DBSuper.
Between 1997 and 2008 we had no new Dragonball material, and then, boom!, the 2008 special, Kai, BoG and Fukkatsu no F, which eventually led to the first full-fledged Dragonball series in 18 years.
I can imagine Toriyama reasoning: "ok, we've managed to do an exceedingly good job with the characters and events portrayed in BoG and we dedicated an entire movie to the resurrection of Dragonball's most charismatic villain, and it's time to go further and actually generate a series of episodes. However, just 2 years after BoG came out and a few months after Fukkatsu no F did, we're going to basically make the events portrayed in these movies non-canon and have them retold pretty much in the same exact circumstances although at a different timing."
I can see and understand why some fans are disappointed by the fact that we'll be dedicating some 20 or 25 episodes to the retelling of these two movies as arcs, taking into account the fact that we've already been introduced to Beerus and his character, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin.
I'm not even complaining or criticizing it anymore - I never did, actually -, I'm just still a little astonished at the fact that in such a short amount of time they suddenly decided to basically take BoG and Fukkatsu no F and have them reshaped into full-fledged arcs. I guess the idea behind it was to have Beerus, Whis and the concept of Super Saiya-jin God introduced WITHIN the series' episodes as opposed to have the episodes refer to the movies, which a large chunk of people and even fans might not have even seen at this point. Basically, Beerus and Whis just HAD to be there and they've been pretty much entirely accepted with open arms by the Dragonball fandom and family in general, and they decided to have them properly (re)introduced in the series itself, from beginning to end, avoiding any reference to any of the two movies, which have "earned" their place in "non-canonness" right along with the other 13 DBZ movies and GT.
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precita wrote:
I'm actually disappointed Beerus is being portrayed as evil because he feels too similar to Freeza now. Just blowing up planets whenever he wants and killing everyone while he lives in luxury. I liked how in Battle of Gods he seemed more neutral. He was still destroying planets but didn't seem as evil about it, if that makes any sense.
He's reminding me a bit too much of Freeza.
Although there are certain similarities, as you pointed out - I myself expressed the automatic association I made between Beerus' and Freeza's apparent delight in watching planets blow up during and immediately after watching the end of the second episode -, as you also pointed out, he came off as entirely neutral throughout BoG and especially Fukkatsu no F (he actually refused to even intervene in a battle between the pinnacle of good, Goku, and the pinnacle of evil, Freeza, with the Earth and its inhabitants future and lives at stake). If we had never seen BoG or if it had never seen the light of day, we would most likely be mysteriously anticipating a confrontation with a somewhat evil antagonist, Beerus, taking into account most of the scenes we've already seen in these three first episodes of DBSuper. We'll have to see just how closely they'll follow his interactions with Goku, Vegeta and the others while crashing Bulma's party in the following episodes, though, after already witnessing that they're pretty much following Beerus' and Whis' interactions on an almost sentence-by-sentence basis. It could very well be that they keep his neutrality/indifference towards pretty much anything except the stuff which makes him either angry/furious (being denied food) or delighted (food and, to some degree, fighting strong opponents who could somehwat present a challenge to him).
His lines in Fukkatsu no F where he says "a fight is a fight", "I don't care" and especially "I'm no one's ally" illustrate the fact that he can't be deemed an ally to good nor to evil. He can't be seen as a villain, but rather as an antagonist, at most. The experience we had in BoG pretty much kills the excitement for the upcoming battle between Beerus and Goku, Vegeta and the others on Earth, but perhaps he'll be shown to act in a somewhat more serious manner, but he'll never act in an "evil" way, quite simply because he's not "evil".
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irreality wrote:
As a former lifelong myopic (yay, LASIK!), why *wouldn't* Gohan wear his glasses all the time? It isn't a nerd thing. If you can't see, you put on glasses. People like seeing 100% of the time. Unless one's prescription is really low (like around 1 diopter), people who use glasses don't normally decide, hmm, this is a day I want to see clearly.
I can see him being diagnosed later in life. A lot of people realize they have myopia from trying to read the blackboard. If he was homeschooled and was busy saving the world for a lot of his life, he might have missed early childhood diagnostics and just not realized he can't focus on fine details that are far away until starting school in earnest. I would guess he isn't super blind, but has enough of a need for glasses full time (e.g. +2 diopters).
Also, his grandfather needs glasses. Since the need for glasses is partly genetic, it makes sense that he might need glasses, too.
If there's a physical need for Gohan to wear glasses, then sure, go right ahead. However, what most fans who complain about it are talking about is the fact that it makes him look like a nerdy little weakling, when in fact he was supposed to be the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him - despite, as a non-pure Saiya-jin, he lacks the true maniacal thirst for battle. Quite in fact, Gohan was supposed or at least fully intended to become the series' new protagonist after the Cell arc, as can be seen and proven by the opening for the Majin Buu arc, replacing Goku, which was an entirely failed move (in fact, it's again Goku who saves the day in the Majin Buu arc and slaughters Kid Buu, although with the help of many others). Gohan's potential is almost immeasurable, he's had several instances throughout the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs in which he lost it and his true fighting power became apparent and obvious. It was betting on that that Goku had him step up for him against Cell in the Cell Games, considering the "losing-it = out of control anger"+ extreme training combo. Goku was right and Gohan became not only the first one to reach the stage of Super Saiya-jin 2, the one and only SSJ stage which really goes "beyond the limits of Super Saiya-jin" (as stated numerous times by Goku, Mirai no Trunks and Vegeta) and what was by then the strongest fighter in the series, which was a trend that was supposed to be continued and followed in the Majin Buu arc.
The way Gohan has been treated - apart from his clothes and his aforementioned glasses and nerdy look - in recent movies, which goes against his absolutely massive power against Perfect Cell and Super Buu, is what his fans and Dragonball fans in general complain about, I believe. He didn't even fight or land a single blow in the 2008 special, he was beaten to a pulp by Beerus in less than 10 seconds in BoG (although everyone except Super Saiya-jin God Goku and fully-enraged Vegeta were dealt with pretty much in the same way, despite their power), but, worst of all, he was knocked out with a single punch by first-form Freeza, despite the latter's massive training and power development, when he was supposed to be close to/on par with Goku and especially Vegeta in terms of progression in power level/Super Saiya-jin stages. We've had enough of Gohan becoming a "scholar", we want him to reach his full potential and beat the shit out of his opponents in a badass atmosphere just like he did in the Cell Games and against Super Buu. After he had reached those two peaks, he shouldn't have become so quickly an "I'm not fighting, I'd rather study" guy; not only that, as if it wasn't enough: he actually not only does not want to fight or train, despite his massive potential, he's not getting any decent or significant roles even as far as training or character development goes. He's supposed to be a badass unbeatable martial artist, not a scholar who goes around buying books and studying all the time while getting married to Videl.
In short, it's not just his nerdy look and especially his lack of desire to fight and train despite his enormous fighting potential, it's the entire lack of significant appearances and actions they've been putting him in.
I can put myself in the skin of a Gohan fan and a criticizer of their depiction of him in the recent movies and now in DBSuper, but I am not nor have I ever been a huge Gohan fan, so I'm not too bothered about that.
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Doctor. wrote:
Just because the circumstances were understandable, that still doesn't make Gohan any less of a psycho.
I wouldn't call Gohan a psycho, even in the numerous instances where he loses it during the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs and starts bombing villains in an out-of-control rage (Raditz, Nappa, Freeza, Cell Juniors, Cell). At most, these episodes could be called "psychotic", not "psychopathic". Those are two close words, but actually with totally different meanings.
Gohan is pretty much an even purer version of Goku. Goku is 100% good, but Gohan is not only 100% good, he's well-mannered when addressing others and lacks any sort of violent instincts typical of the Saiya-jin race when it comes to training/killing/fighting. I mean, he goes as far as talking to Cell saying he doesn't want to kill him despite Cell being a psychopathic genocidal monster, instead of just fighting him. He's probably and arguably the most good-hearted fighter there is in the entire series. Goku, on the other hand, and as a gifted and pure Saiya-jin, is a fighting maniac with an obsession for eating, disrespecting the official titles of even the highest deities, and a maniacal desire to fight all the time.
I think the whole debate on Gohan's depiction in the recent movies/specials and DBSuper will by now have reached its conclusion. They're matching his typical non-pure-Saiya-jin lack of desire to train, fight and become stronger than his previous stages and than anyone else, unlike Goku or Vegeta, to his well-mannered, "I'd like to be a renowned scholar", "I'll only fight if a menacing villain shows up" routine. However, the very fact that he skips training all the time (something which is pointed out by Goku and especially Vegeta in Babidi's ship) basically drops the enormous and huge amount of Ki he possesses. A particular fighter's level of Ki is not supposed to be something static, it's supposed to be worked and trained upon, otherwise it will slowly and gradually slip away, and that's exactly what's been happening to Gohan. However, we may understand why he lost some power between the Cell Games and the early Majin Buu arc, even as a Super Saiya-jin 2, given that we're talking about a 7 year gap (!), but in this instance it's been only 6 months. We still aren't sure exactly when the Freeza arc in DBSuper is going to take place, or even if he's going to be knocked out with a simple, single blow by first-from Freeza just like he was in the movie, but if it does indeed happen it just goes to show that there was a massive drop in his power. I mean, by the time he's finished with the Rou Kaioshin ritual and goes back to Earth to face Super Buu, he not only surpassed his badass teenage Super Saiya-jin 2 form with which he thrashed the Cell Juniors and Cell himself, becoming the most powerful fighter on Earth, above Cell and even Goku, he surpassed both Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku, Dabura and even the fat form of Majin Buu. He owns and dominates Super Buu with ease and was at that time, I believe, supposed to have achieved his ultimate stage, meaning the intention was to have him basically become the strongest fighter there ever was, which was a failed move because 2 episodes later he's already getting his ass kicked by Super Buu's new form(s) after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo. Remember that the way the Japanese specialized media refer to the level of Ki he possesses as a martial artist when facing Super Buu is "Saikyou no Senshi", as in, "Strongest Warrior", or "Best Warrior", or "Ultimate Warrior" (the expression is used to refer to some other fighters throughout DBZ, but never with the intention to mean he's just basically become invincible). His Ultimate stage was supposed to be unsurpassable, and yet it gets surpassed by an ever-growing number of new stages (by Super Buu, Goku and Vegeta) and other fighters (Beerus, Whis, Freeza).
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Bullza wrote:
I was wondering yesterday if Golden Freeza were to fight SSGSS Goku or Vegeta, blood lusted and without any interruptions would he be able to kill them before his power dropped significantly below them and had no chance of winning. I'd say probably not.
And you put a lot of time effort into that list MaGyunia. Maybe Karin should be in the Piccolo Daimao list too, don't know if you forget about him.
No, I didn't forget about him. I just didn't want to make the list even longer by including every single fighter who happened to show up in each arc. I could have included Karin in Piccolo Daimao's and Piccolo Jr's arcs, the farmer with the shotgun in the Saiya-jin arc, Gohan's power level of 1 when measured by Raditz's Scouter in the Saiya-jin saga, King Vegeta, Toma and Bardock in the Freeza arc, etc., etc., but I tried to be as inclusive as possible while at the same time leaving out a few fighters, otherwise the list would grow even longer than it did, and I didn't want to occupy the entire page. :D
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Restricting the discussion to Gohan's attitude towards Cell after turning Super Saiya-jin 2, we need to take into account the fact that Gohan's isn't really used to feel rage in a controlled manner like he did throughout the fight and his thrashing of the Cell Juniors and then Cell. All of his instances of losing it in the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs were very temporary "psychotic" episodes (a "psychosis" clinically refers to the act of losing control over one's actions, to the point of, most of the times, not even remembering having performed them, which is Gohan's case on numerous occasions when he flips out), instead of being "permanently" angry at someone for a prolonged period of time. It's said that the state of Super Saiya-jin increases a Saiya-jin's violent and volatile temper, but not only is Gohan not a pure Saiya-jin, he's a well-mannered, well-spoken peace-loving person. Even as a Super Saiya-jin Full Power (although this one seems to quieten the violent tendencies of the SSJ state, as it's a "mastered" and naturalized version of it) he displays no traits which he didn't as the good old soft child/teenage Gohan.
After losing it after #16 gets destroyed to pieces, the resulting Super Saiya-jin 2 transformation made him not only expand on the fury he was already starting to feel growing up inside of him as the Cell Juniors tortured his friends and family before him, it also made him a little cocky and arrogant, which is a total contrast with the way he had always acted, and something we could only attribute to Gohan's absolute inexperience at being the strongest fighter there is with the full knowledge of it, while at the same time feeling furious at the one responsible for the suffering of his loved ones. We saw this slight bit of cockiness again when he once more became what was supposed to be at that time the "Saikyou no Senshi" against Super Buu. After thrashing him, and throughout his display of absolute superiority, he's smiling and smirking all the time and then goes as far as calling his opponent a "retard". We could reason that the more powerful Gohan KNOWS he is, the more of a tendency he gets to become arrogant about it.
Gohan goes beyond Goku in terms of goodness. Goku is a fighting maniac with no manners, Gohan is just as purely good-hearted, but he's also polite, loves animals and protects them, loves people and protects them, has never hurt anybody who wasn't utterly evil and ruthless and doesn't even want anger-trigging activities such as training or fighting, instead becoming a peace-loving scholar.
The way they're treating him, he not only does not want to partake in fighting or training, he's actually not getting any significant decent dialogue or interaction, and this is not after 7 years of idleness, it's just 6 months after he became one of the most powerful fighters the Universe had ever seen. I think they're pushing him to the sidelines on a rather deliberate fashion. They very deliberately chose to get rid of Gohan as a main fighter (replacing him with Vegeta, the real co-protagonist of the series along with Goku, who eventually surpasses him at some point in DBSuper just like he did at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F). The old days in the early Majin Buu arc where they intended to have Gohan become Goku's successor as the series' protagonist are gone, and were indeed gone after it was clear the formula wouldn't work. He did have his time to shine against Super Buu, but just two episodes later he's utterly surpassed and defeated again, only to watch as Goku once again saves the day along with the help of many others.
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Alex9196 wrote:
@rereboy
But why do you think it is more reasonable to send a massmurderer for example to prison, instead of killing him off. How is that more reasonable? That means you either send him there for decades until he dies or you send him there for a certain period of time, let him out and run the risk of him killing people again.
I dont know the laws of your country but I guess there is no death-sentence, so there must be prison, right?
So like I said why do you think it is more reasonable?
Prison by itself is a medieval-like way of dealing with people who need to be removed from society and pay for their crimes. In no way does it improve the convict's personality or produce any good for society on the outside. It's just the most usual form of punishment the world could come to (by restricting their movements and thus preventing them from committing even more crimes), one which hasn't improved as the centuries go by. But I'm not going to get any deeper into this discussion, it would eventually take me to mankind's utter shortcomings as a species and especially religion, which is probably the thing I hate most in the history of humanity.
However, I'll say that just killing someone who was deliberately responsible for the torture and death of a number of people is a little short as a punishment. Death is the state of non-life and non-existence. Is that really a punishment for most people? A large chunk of humanity doesn't want to exist (look at the suicide rates on some countries). If I had to choose, I would go for the "a life for a life" philosophy. If you torture, rape and kill 1 person, the same should be done to you. If you torture, rape and kill 10, you should have it happen to you 10 times. And so on. Killing by itself, as a method of punishment, has a degree of effectiveness which really depends a lot on the circumstances, as it's the mere act of ending someone's existence in this world.
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rereboy wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
In no way does it improve the convict's personality or produce any good for society on the outside.
Completely, factually wrong.
Ever been to jail? I did. All it did was make me even more bitter and angry towards society and increased my levels of sociopathy. Absolutely nothing good came out of it. Simply restricting my freedom didn't improve neither me nor the victims of the crimes nor society in general.
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Rereboy, who said or hinted that I was a liberal or against dictatorial regimes? For all you know, I could be a sympathizer with the Nazis or with the most oppressive Communist states. Maybe liberalism isn't the best system either, it has proven to have many faults and shortcomings throughout the XX and XXI Centuries.
Could we get back to Dragonball, though? :D
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rereboy wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Ever been to jail? I did. All it did was make me even more bitter and angry towards society and increased my levels of sociopathy. Absolutely nothing good came out of it. Simply restricting my freedom didn't improve neither me nor the victims of the crimes nor society in general.
I'm sorry that you had a hard time, but not everybody shares your experience. Just like there's plenty of people who get nothing good from prison, there's plenty of people who do. Also, in the kind of system you proposed, where criminals receive 10 times the punishment or worse, things would have been far worse for you so I don't see how that would be better.
Well, it really depends on the type of crime(s) that landed you in prison in the first place. I "suffered" what I had to suffer and "paid" for what I had to pay, but not in the right place nor in the right circumstances. Besides, even if it would mean I would suffer more as a separate entity or individual, I would still prefer a system in which you get retribution for hurting others much in the same way, degree and volume as the suffering you caused on helpless victims. If I committed crimes, I need to pay them, not necessarily for the good of society, but ALSO because of it (if possible). This isn't a thread about my life or, in fact, about humankind's shortcomings in terms of delivering punishment, though. If we dug any deeper you would most likely (or surely) find that I have rather extreme views on some of society's most touchy subjects, so that's another reason not to go down that road.
Let's get back to Dragonball, come on. :D
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VegettoEX wrote:
If your conversation is not about episode three of Dragon Ball Super, please take it elsewhere.
I wasn't the one who started the deviation to this real-word/punishment/prison/mass murderers discussion, but I acknowledge that I've taken part of it at some point as well. I'm sorry about that. I did recommend we got back to Dragonball twice, though.
Sorry about the deviation, VegettoEX.
Perhaps it would be a wise decision to generate a thread for the fourth episode of DBSuper at this point, even though we won't be getting a fourth episode this weekend as we did in the past 3 weekends.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
All of your posts are essays, MaGyunia. O.O
But yeah, I can see why people dislike Gohan with glasses on. I definitely don't like the design or see a reason for giving him them. However, it would be sort of cool if he paralleled Superman in the sense of taking his glasses off when he's ready to shed off the nerdy persona and get serious. He technically already does that in F and GT, but usually proceeds to get his ass handed to him, which is not what I have in mind.
Sorry about that, it's not just here. I have a tendency to overwrite and leave absolutely no detail out in my writings when expressing my points and views. I can't get rid of it, unfortunately. I just hope that whenever I write what you referred to as "essays" the readers go through the entire thing and not skip parts of it because of how long they are.
I very rarely reply with single sentences or with just two or three lines and I won't be changing the style.
We're 3 episodes in in DBSuper and we've been basically being (re)introduced to the family/friend interactions between the major characters/protagonists from DBZ along with mysterious scenes featuring Beerus and Whis. Given the names of the upcoming two episodes and now that things look like they're going to get hotter, with Beerus crashing Bulma's birthday party and confront Goku, Vegeta and the others much in the same way he did in BoG, how do you think they'll make the transition between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc within DBSuper, regarding time-skips and the number of episodes? Could Champa be introduced in the Freeza arc already, or just after that, leading up to/during the 6th Universe arc?
I've never said this here (or anywhere, for that matter), but the whole concept of Champa and his attendant slightly disappointed me (especially Champa's appearance). If there is some rivalry between Beerus and Champa, or indeed between each of the duos, I can't help but cheer for Beerus to win and be stronger. We've already welcomed Beerus as part of the Dragonball family after being exposed to him in BoG (especially) and Fukkatsu no F. We have virtually no info on Champa except from the way he looks and that image in which he has a brief exchange with Beerus. There has been some debate on whether he's a friendly rival of Beerus or a little more than that. I can foresee that the most likely scenario is that he'll become one of the main characters in the 6th Universe arc and not anytime before that. Again, we can only speculate at this point.
Taking the villains introduced in the 4 DB movies, the 13 DBZ movies, GT and Episode of Bardock out, all of which have to be considered non-canon, it's also interesting to point out that the only major villain in each of the main arcs throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ have not only had their cameos here and there, they are actually getting their major screen time, ones more than the others, in DBSuper (Piccolo Daimao arc - Piccolo Daimao, who has a son/offspring/reincarnation in Piccolo, Piccolo Jr. arc - Piccolo, Saiya-jin arc - Vegeta, Freeza arc - Freeza, Jinzouningen & Cell arcs - Cell, Majin Buu arc - Majin Buu). The only major villain I was referring to is obviously Cell. He provides the mid-term between the Saiya-jin/Freeza arcs and the Majin Buu arc. We can't really consider #17 and #18 as major villains within their own Jinzouningen arc, except in their alternate timeline in future, where they are indeed evil, a scenario which is explored in the Trunks Special. As a result of all of this and taking all of this into account, Cell, despite his fantastic background and conceptual design, is the only major villain who ends up not having the slightest bit of screen-time and protagonism by the time of the recent movies and DBSuper. I'm a Cell fan, and that bothers me to some degree. Piccolo is there and he went through a rather quick process of turning good by the Freeza/Jinzouningen arc, Vegeta had ENORMOUS potential as a character and just had to be there throughout the entirety of DBZ with a very gradual and incremental change of heart (much slower than that of Piccolo's), Freeza has had numerous cameos, is the most charismatic villain in all of Dragonball and has just had an entire movie dedicated to his resurrection and Majin Buu is present not only in his good, fat form, among the good guys, but also when it comes to the fact that DBSuper is happening just 6 months after they ended a titanic battle with his numerous versions, with the eventual defeat of Kid Buu, so that event is pretty much fresh in their minds and spirits.
I like Cell more than I do ANY of the versions of Majin Buu, and to some degree and in certain aspects I go as far as preferring Cell to Freeza (particularly in Cell's perfect form). However, I can't really see any chance for him to make a reappearance at any point in DBSuper. We're basically just going to get the first family-focused episodes, the Beerus arc with his confrontation with Goku and the others, Goku reaching the Super Saiya-jin God stage somehow, Vegeta and Goku going off to train with Whis, then the Freeza arc with his resurrection, training and coming to Earth to show off his much improved self in terms of power, eventually getting killed by either Goku or Vegeta in their newly acquired Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages, and THEN we'll move on to truly entirely new material which none of us have ever seen before. The concept of Super Dragon Balls and their exploration and search outside Earth may automatically lead some fans to link it to the concept of Goku's, Trunks' and Pan's adventures in early GT, but let's not get into another tedious DBSuper vs GT debate. I'd rather have them focused not on the Dragon Balls themselves (which ceased to be the central element of the series after the Freeza arc, as neither Dr. Gero, #17, #18, Cell, Babidi or Majin Buu express any interest in collecting them, although they do come in handy after the main villain is taken care of to undo the damage done throughout the arc(s)), but on violent fights at least close to what we've seen in the best fights throughout DB and DBZ.
On that regard, and proceeding with the trend to generate lists, here goes my list of best one-on-one fights in Dragonball, from best to worst:
1 - Super Saiya-jin Goku vs Freeza (episode 96 to episode 105)
2 - Goku vs Vegeta (episode 30 to episode 33)
3 - Piccolo vs #17 (episode 148 to episode 149)
4 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku vs Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta (episode 230 to episode 233)
5 - Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku vs Cell (episode 177 to episode 180)
6 - Piccolo vs Cell (episode 142 to episode 143) - I chose this one particularly because of what I already mentioned in some other thread about the fantastic animation they provided us with in episode 142, which was repeated in episode 164 (Mirai no Trunks vs Perfect Cell)
I could go on, but I don't want to make another exceedingly extensive list after having done one along those lines just one day ago.
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Nice to see that the list I created generated so many replies. It's also a good thing to have a debate over it with agreeing and disagreeing positions.
I won't reply to all of the rebukes to my list, although I could do so at least on the majority of them.
Keep on with your thoughts, though, I might reply in detail sooner or later to all of you.
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Please stop with the Gohan outfit/nerd-look/decrease in power/portrayal discussion. VegettoEX was supposed to already have put an end to the conversation on that topic, which is something I agree with. Every single angle on Gohan's appearance and evolution in power in DBZ, GT and DBSuper has been thoroughly discussed already. No further definitive conclusions will be reached, mostly due to the fact that they've been reached already.
Let's get back to the main topic of the thread, episode 3 of DBSuper.
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LordCrumb wrote:
How come the voice actor for King Kai doesn't appear to be very enthusiastic about his performance? The animation has King waiving his arms, yelling with a big open mouth, but the voice actor just reads his lines without any emphasis..
While it's true that he sounds like he's just basically reading the plot when he says his lines as Kaiou-sama, if you really paid enough attention to DBZ in its entirety, this voice actor - who happens to be the same doing the voice of the narrator and Babidi, among others, in the original Japanese version - always had a tendency to "undertone" his voice acting when performing Kaiou-sama, although not to the degree we're seeing in DBSuper and indeed BoG. I don't really see a problem here and there's nothing to worry about. His announcements of the DBSuper's episode's names are just as colorful and enthusiastic as they were all the way throughout DB and DBZ.
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LordCrumb wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
I agree. I loved the OVA's portrayal of Videl and Gohan. I like the idea of the latter being a coach too.
I don't like Buu's personality either. He seems too demanding and rude. I don't like how Mr. Satan is scared of him. I figured he'd be tamed by Satan and taught to behave. They should be best friends, not spineless father and spoiled son. It almost feels like Buu will kill him at anytime.
Totally agree on this. Boo seemed like a nice person at the end of Z, and was a friend to Mr Satan. It feels sad that Mr Satan is now just there to try and keep him calm. Boo is not evil anymore.. sure, he can still get angry, but Satan taught him not to get mad again.
Although I did crack up big time in Ep1 when Boo came out in front of the cameras, and Satan stared to shit himself. But yeah, totally different boo.
Also agree on Videl.. she shouldn't be pandering to Gohan.. she's a fighter for crying out loud.
I've always thought that having Majin Buu around, even if it's the good version of him, could lead to eventual trouble somehow (which is pretty much the very reason Vegeta wants to vanquish him right after Kid Buu is defeated in episode 287, stating exactly the danger he still could represent as the main reason to get rid of him). This isn't the fat Majin Buu we saw first becoming friends with Mr. Satan during the Majin Buu arc, as he had the pure-evil part inside of him, which he doesn't anymore, but you never know what could happen with the whole way his transformations/mergers/separations work. I highly doubt they'll pick on Majin Buu's danger of splitting again and create trouble in DBSuper, as by now he's just another one of the good guys and they'll focus on the newest/most important characters/fighters.
I honestly don't see that much of a difference between DBSuper's or BoG's Majin Buu's attitude and what we could expect from such an utterly alien magically-created eating maniac. What did you expect? That he followed Mr. Satan's every command just because they created a strong bond and friendship between the two of them?
As for Videl, it's basically the same process they're applying - deliberately or not - to Gohan. They hastily turned them into a harmless couple when just 6 months before Videl was a badass crime fighter with a bad temper and Gohan had achieved a level of power which was supposed to have made him the strongest fighter there ever was, thrashing even Super Buu and surpassing his previous Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, Vegeta, Gotenks and the fat version of Majin Buu. I think they're doing it deliberately. I'm not a huge fan Gohan nor have I ever been, so it doesn't really bother me too much. They basically replaced Gohan with Vegeta in terms of protagonism when you compare the Majin Buu arc with the recent movies/specials and DBSuper, matching Vegeta's level of power to his degree of importance in the series. I just fail to see the need to push Gohan to the sidelines so much. We're stuck with that and from now on Gohan and Videl will be just a couple, and Gohan will be fighting only when absolutely necessary. I was a little relieved when I first saw the opening for DBSuper, which features Gohan in his Ultimate form powering up. That might be a hint that they haven't totally forgotten about him and the enormous power he's supposed to have, and eventually he'll have his time to shine in one of DBSuper's arcs. Unlike Goku or Vegeta, who are pure Saiya-jins, Gohan took his role as family man as an "opportunity" to become a harmless "I'll only fight if needed", "I'd rather study endlessly than train seriously to develop and surpass my father and Vegeta and any other fighter" next-to-useless character.
I can sympathize with hardcore Gohan fans given the treatment he's been receiving in the latest movies and DBSuper. If you're a Gohan fan to the degree to which I'm a fan of Piccolo or Vegeta, it's understandable. I would be utterly revolted if they did anything even close to this to my favorite characters. They already had Vegeta's strongest state be surpassed by numerous fighters in the Jinzouningen and Majin Buu arcs, and they already had Piccolo pretty much removed from the fighting arena in the entirety of the Majin Buu arc, and I was far from pleased. Thankfully, they've at least partially corrected those mistakes.
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dbgtFO wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
I honestly don't see that much of a difference between DBSuper's or BoG's Majin Buu's attitude and what we could expect from such an utterly alien magically-created eating maniac. What did you expect? That he followed Mr. Satan's every command just because they created a strong bond and friendship between the two of them?
No, you're right about Majin Buu not being that different from BoG, but my complaint has always been about how he's different from the Buu Arc, rather than any differences between BoG and Super. Super is just a retelling of BoG, so no Wonder they would keep the characters the same as they were in that movie.
The problem is that Mr. Buu basically did do whatever Mr. Satan told him, when they first met, he even offered up his precious candy to him and had no qualms about helping Mr. Satan win the 3 tournaments between the Buu arc and the epilouge. Even when Goku asked him to rig the tournament draws, he complied without any hint of malice.
But now in BoG and Super, because Toriyama just needed a fall guy apparently, he's turned him into a rude, obnoxious bubblegum man, who wouldn't even give up a single pudding cup, even when asked nicely.
I never saw, even in the aftermath of the Majin Buu/Kid Buu battle, that the fat version of Majin Buu would become what could be only be described as a friendly slave to Mr. Satan. He's not that childish or manipulable. I assume that his instances of presenting a childish and well-mannered behavior before BoG and DBSuper came about after much work by Mr. Satan. Mr. Satan's way to deal with him has probably ALWAYS been to play on the things Majin Buu wants most (namely food) to get what he wants from him, and that can't be seen as taking advantage of him, it's just what you would expect from a relationship between a normal human and what had been before the most feared and powerful villain in the history of the Universe. Any friendly relationship between anybody and ANY version of Majin Buu, including this good-hearted one, would necessarily have its awkward moments, whether in BoG and DBSuper or off-screen during the Majin Buu arc.
Yet again, I'm not a huge fan of the fat version of Majin Buu either, much less of Mr. Satan, so even this particular aspect doesn't bother me that much.
I'm honestly much more preoccupied with the way they were going to revitalize and deal with characters like Tenshinhan and especially Vegeta and Piccolo, and I can say I'm quite relieved to see the way they've been going around it. I can't express my satisfaction to see Vegeta finally reach Kakarotto's level of power by Fukkatsu no F - which will be eventually repeated in DBSuper - and, after so many years, beat the shit out of Freeza, while making his way to the top 10 of most powerful warriors in the entire Universe. As for Piccolo, he was supposed to be the strongest Z fighter for a few episodes after he fused with Kami and pretty much held the dim circumstances (#17, #18, #16, Cell) on his own while the Saiya-jin were off training. He fought second-form Freeza toe-to-toe. He killed numerous henchmen in the movies and managed to both get his revenge on his (then) arch-rival Goku and kill Raditz in a violent manner at the same time. As a Saiya-jin, Vegeta's potential to overcome his previous stages and level of Ki is most likely infinite, and taking into account his character he'll continue to train and fight obsessively to reach further and further stages and levels, but in the case of Piccolo I believe he has pretty much already reached his full potential and won't become any stronger than he was by the time of the Cell Games and throughout the Majin Buu arc (a shame he didn't get any fighting opportunities in the saga apart from cutting a defenseless Babidi in half, though, and was stuck training the bothersome and out-of-control kids).
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Super Vegetto wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Golden Freeza is superior to both SSGSSs when he's at full power, both Goku and Freeza admit that.
Yes, but I've deliberately chosen to put him below both SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta because of the time restraints he experiences when using the form, which eventually cause him to lose to both of them.
Makes no sense for placing him under SSGSSjins,,,why would you even put Grade 3 Trunks above his Grade 2 if eventually he would loose the fight due to lack of speed ?
Because, unlike the Golden Freeza vs Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks in his Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai stage, despite his drastic lack of speed, still managed to give Perfect Cell a much harder time than Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, who is above Trunks in his Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage.
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Daimo-Rukiri wrote:
Zombie wrote:
Ok I'm going to give my full thoughts:
16.- How are SSJ Goten and Trunks weaker than freaking SSJ Freeza arc Goku...??
Super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, just because they're Super Saiyans doesn't necessarily mean they can beat full power Freeza.
I'm kinda curious if whis is Omnipotent in that there is a creator for each Universe versus one creator.
Zombie, you're implying with no evidence whatsoever that both kid Trunks and kid Goten are both stronger than Super Saiya-jin Goku when he fights Freeza on Namek. I ask you: why? Even before Goku became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin on Namek, he had overcome numerous barriers, was close to death more than once, was constantly fighting and underwent insane training in the spaceship while on his way to Namek. Trunks and Goten both turned Super Saiya-jin on a rather natural basis, given the genes received from their respective gifted pure-Saiya-jin fathers. There really is no point to go at it other than resorting to pure speculation, but it's just my opinion that Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek is stronger than both Super Saiya-jin Trunks and Super Saiya-jin Goten. You're entitled to disagree on this one and pretty much on every single one, that was the whole purpose of the creation of the list I generated: to get your opinions.
It was made in a rush and I did put some effort on it, I didn't really spend 10 hours doing it. Of course it will have flaws or, in the very least, contain debatable rankings here and there. :P
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Don't tell me that by now, although you haven't seen the movie, after visiting this forum (and potentially others) you didn't come across ANYONE who mentioned the slightest detail on Fukkatsu no F. Was I really the first one to tell you that Vegeta beats Freeza in Fukkatsu no F?
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Saiga wrote:
Actually there is plenty of evidence that Goten and Trunks are stronger than Goku was on Namek.
[*]They have the features of "full power" Super Saiyans. Not just physically, but they can also control their power.
[*]Goten spars evenly with Gohan, who is FAR stronger than Namek arc Goku. Gohan can be seen sweating from the effort.
[*]Trunks can land a punch on Vegeta and take a punch in return.
[*]Their power freaks 18 out even when suppressed, and she chooses not to fight them directly. Trunks holds back his blast so he doesn't kill her, and it is made clear that Goten and Trunks know how strong she is.
[*]When Vegeta dies and Gohan is presumed dead, Piccolo calls them "Earth's last hope" without knowing about fusion.
[*]Their full power shocks Piccolo.
[*]The guidebooks have various comments that put them at least on par with 18, ranging all the way up to Gohan's level.
Yes, Goku had gone through a lot when he first became a Super Saiyan... but he also went through a lot when he won the 23rd Budokai, and yet Gohan was able to surpass that level a four years old, with a year of training. The half-breed children are really strong, and were never that far behind the others.
Some of your points are acceptable, but #18 fights the two of them at the same time (as in, 1 against 2) and manages to hold her own, while back in the Jinzouningen arc she was just slightly above Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who in turn was only slightly above Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek.
Piccolo (and Vegeta, and Gohan, for that matter) are astonished not exactly at their power, but at the fact that they're able to turn Super Saiya-jin at such a young age.
When they're in the gravity room early in the Majin Buu arc training for the upcoming Tenkaichi Budokai, If Vegeta had been training/fighting to his fullest, Trunks wouldn't even come close to him and would defeated Trunks in a matter of seconds.
Being able to control their power and keep their fighting instincts under control is one feature of the Super Saiya-jin Full Power stage, sure, but, apart from that, on what basis do you say they're on that stage, or, even better, are you suggesting they're as strong or nearly as strong as Goku and Gohan as Super Saiya-jin Full Power against Cell?
Gohan is training with a kid who can become Super Saiya-jin. He's not in his Super Saiya-jin 2 form, most likely in his SSJ Full Power state. Someone as strong as a Super Saiya-jin, even as a kid, could present him with problems, taking into account his lack of training and resulting decrease in terms of reflexes, agility, power and velocity. Hence the trouble he had and the sweat you mentioned.
In fact, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha and even Chaozu show up stronger against the Saiya-jin than Goku was when he fought and beat Piccolo in the Piccolo Jr. arc. Of course half-breed Saiya-jin have a natural talent or ability to be massively powerful. Even in the first episodes of DBZ. on the planet he just conquered along with Nappa, Vegeta speculates that the offspring of a Saiya-jin with a non-Saiya-jin could produce a better result than a pure Saiya-jin. That shouldn't mean Goten and Trunks possess that ability to the same degree Gohan does, and/or that it's an inevitable and automatic thing. Natural abilities vs training: which one provides the fighter with the most power? If we went by that, Goku would be a joke from the beginning. He was born with a fighting power of 2, and by Saiya-jin standards even his power level when he fought Piccolo Daimao or Piccolo was laughable, and yet he went on to surpass not even Nappa and Vegeta, and actually overcame even that through intense and massive training to become stronger than the Ginyu Tokusentai, and then went on to overcome Freeza, and then #17 and #18, then Cell, then Gohan in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, then Majin Buu at least in his fat form, and more recently ANY version of Super Buu, Gotenks or Vegitto. I'm not defending Goku because I'm a huge fan of his. I actually prefer Vegeta and Piccolo, for that matter. However, if there's an instance in which I admire Goku (and there's more than one, obviously), that's when he took revenge on Freeza by being the first one to become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin to once again save the day. The kids haven't really accomplished anything, either on their own or indeed fused, and if we took into account GT, they're pretty much like Gohan, skipping training all the time and neglecting to develop and build up on their massive power.
Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jin, are the only ones willing to overcome their limits and reach new stages of power, and they do it successfully, despite a few instances here and there when Gohan went beyond Vegeta. That was already/will soon be fixed, though.
Can you really imagine a fight between a full-powered angry fighting-machine Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek against each of those two brats? Sorry, but I'll keep my position and I'll still hold SSJ Goku on Namek stronger than each of them (not to mention his improvements later on, against Mirai no Trunks, #19 and all the subsequent SSJ stages, obviously).
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Yeah, it might be just the emotions talking, I don't know. I simply can't accept that the epic circumstances in which Goku transformed into Super Saiya-jin against Freeza are going to be overcome by a duo of brats. I'm not saying I hate them or anything, far from it.
Yes, Gohan would destroy Goku if he went on an insane rampage like he did against Raditz, but Gohan took an enormous amount of time to develop his full potential and finally cease from being a cray baby and overcome Goku, Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks, Piccolo, #17, #18 and #16. Even taking into account the fact that he's just a kid and has been so for the entirety of DBZ until the end of the Cell Games, his full potential took some tome to come about. He had to be put to the sidelines and be coached by Goku to do so, he wasn't at first even sure he would be able to do it.
Doesn't really matter, though. In the current circumstances, Goku and Vegeta will very soon take the spotlight and become not only the main protagonists of the series but also the strongest "good guys" in Dragonball, which is just fitting considering Gohan's lack of interest in training and resulting decrease in power. Of course, the same goes for Goten and Trunks, who are and never were anywhere near Goku, Vegeta or Gohan and will never be.
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You need to take into account that I did that exercise in less than 10 minutes, so of course there's bound to be imperfections/inconsistencies or in the very least debatable rankings.
However, instead of pointing out the rankings you disagree with, why don't you highlight the ones you agree with as well? Or even better, why don't you go through the same process and generate a list of your own? No animosity here towards any of you, just a plain suggestion. :)
But yeah, overall it's good to have this many replies to my initial intent to generate a power-level list by arc/movie/special, with so many agreeing and disagreeing positions. That was actually expectable and the very point of the initiative.
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Ajay wrote:
Really? Maybe I'm just frequenting threads with considerate members then. Outside of threads specifically about the film, I've seen a lot of people being pretty coy about plot details. Unless I'm just noticing them less having seen the film. I waited with Battle of Gods and felt like I was seeing spoilers everywhere. This time, not so much.
Ah well! Carry on. My mistake.
For what it's worth, I'm sorry to have spoiled part of your experience with Fukkatsu no F. And I do mean that sincerely. I'll try to be more careful next time, although it seems a little weird to me that someone would deem it as far as "illegal" to watch an entire new Dragonball movie before it comes out in a format in which you can purchase it, and that you managed to be able to wait for months until being able to watch the movie(s) in the proper setting you specified. I myself, along with the majority of hardcore DBZ fans, devour any single piece of new info/visual material on DBZ the second I lay my eyes/hands on it. Doesn't mean I didn't purchase the material afterwards, though.
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dbgtFO wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Yeah, Mr. Boo slapped Mr. Satan out of the way in the fight against Kid Boo, I wouldn't exactly call him a good boy either.
No he didn't(or was that filler?) If you're referring to the scene I think you are, it was Pure Buu who slapped Mr. Satan with his headpiece, not Mr. Buu.
The fat version of Majin Buu did in fact slap Mr. Satan, but not because he was mad at him or anything, it was just because he was both pissed off at Kid Buu and because he wanted Mr. Satan to get out of the way.
Even though Majin Buu has officially become part of the "team" and fights for the sake of good, after having expelled all traces of evil inside of him after all the transformations/separations he went through throughout the Majin Buu arc (especially the Fusion saga), he remains and will always remain a magically-created alien mysterious character with strange tendencies which make him utterly unpredictable and hard to control, especially when it comes to food. It's Mr. Satan's job to keep him under control, as his best friend and after the close friendly relationship they somehow developed, while at the same time refraining from treating him like a slave; he does care about him too much to do that. In the early stage of his interaction with Majin Buu he even goes as far as refraining from taking advantage of the picture he took to get people to believe he defeated Majin Buu, out of respect for both himself, the people and Majin Buu himself. Majin Buu is even harder to fit into society than Piccolo is. Everyone is scared of Piccolo's appearance, even after ceasing to remember him from his old days as the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao many years (more than a decade) after those events. His clothes and his alias "Ma Junior" (used, in fact, for that very reason in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai by Piccolo, helps in that department, though). However, I highly doubt Majin Buu will ever cause any further trouble with the way his transformations/mergers/separations work, they're not going to have him cause trouble again, he's just not that fundamental a character anymore, not even as a fighter, despite what can be called his massive power, to most standards.
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Ajay wrote:
You're replying to the wrong person there, but I'm sure he appreciates your words.
My mistake, my post was obviously directed to LordCrumb and not at you. :)
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Marco Polo wrote:
For the millionth time, can you stop double-posting?
Sure. Everyone complaints about my double-posting and the volume of my writings, so perhaps it would be a good idea to refrain from posting altogether. Would that make you happy?
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Zombie wrote:
Stop double posting.
Second time in a matter of minutes somebody complaints about it.
I guess it's time to refrain from posting at all, I don't feel I'm very welcome here. :thumbup:
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Not to worry.
I'll just stop posting altogether. Have fun. :P
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sintzu wrote:
Subject: Super Episode 3 (19 July 2015)
MaGyunia wrote:
Not to worry.
I'll just stop posting altogether. Have fun. :P
So the only one who actually adds to the topics he comments on is going to stop posting because of some idiots who are probably just jealous of his writing ?
If I'll be getting that type of disgraceful comments, then yeah, I better just stop writing and have the discussions pretty much die with less and less content and empty contributions by those "idiots". I don't like to have the feeling I'm being envied or to receive critics like that.
I won't change the way I write, the content of what I write, the volume of my writing or the degree of detail to which I go when I express my carefully-thought concepts, so if a number of users don't like it or are jealous of it, I'll have to either keep them to myself or take them somewhere else.
I appreciate your words of support, though.
I'm sure they realize that they can't come close to my level of writing and are jealous of it, and that it doesn't take me too long to refrain from sharing anything with them given their attitude.
Give it some days. After the discussions die down and nothing of any substance comes up after I stop(ped) writing my points, maybe they'll wonder if it was a good idea to "force" me to make this decision, and they'll regret it.
After a few days of next-to-inactivity on the main topics of the forum, maybe I'll get back and get the whole discussions going on at full steam again. But I won't post anything for a while, sorry about that.
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In fact, it should really be the other way around. What I see mostly in the threads is a bunch of empty concepts written in two or three lines, with no substance to them.
Then a guy comes along and start writing large texts with lots of carefully-thought concepts, generates lists, creates discussions out of nowhere out of his own decision, and out of jealousy or some other issue, they've had enough of that and start making stupid complaints about anything they can get their hands on.
Like I said, give it a few days. At least there's not going to be a fourth episode to discuss this weekend, so I won't be losing any meaningful discussions for a few days. I might come back just before the discussion on the fourth episode starts. If they don't appreciate my way of writing, my double-posts or the volume of my posts, well then... fuck them, really. :P
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This user hasn't replied to me once in a well-mannered way once and all of a sudden came up with this comment, which I regard as rude and most likely coming out of pure jealousy for the fact that I've been one of the most active members of the forum when it comes to generating discussions , lists and keeping and developing the conversations in a well-written manner and in a polite way on a permanent basis ever since I was first admitted to the forum.
I have my own style of writing, which includes carefully-conceived thoughts and concepts, and I like to develop my points in an extremely detailed manner. I don't expect everyone to read what has already been deemed as my "essays", but it's not against the rules to post the way I usually do (with high volumes of text and large amounts of content and points on the topics being discussed).
In fact, there's a part on your Forum Rules which specifically refers to this aspect:
"a simple “Yes” or “I agree”, while having a perfectly fine sentiment behind them, do not actually add anything substantial to the on-going conversations. Just like a single word is not an appropriate response, an image in and of itself is not an appropriate response. No matter what the subject matter, we simply ask that our members bring as much substance to the conversation as possible in as well-written a way as possible."
The way I see it, most of the users taking part in the conversations add little or next-to-nothing with their contributions consisting of one or two lines devoid of any deep significance, which add nothing to the conversation and in no way help develop points and ideas, which is what I've been trying to fight all this time.
I've chosen not to post anymore in the forum until any action is taken, since I'm not about to change the way I write or how much I write. It's not my problem that my contributions happen to annoy a few users for potential reasons which I'll keep to myself as a theory.
Thank you.
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VegettoEX wrote:
TripleRach wrote:
As for the length of his posts, I happen to find it very refreshing. It's not hurting anyone. But if you don't want to read them, you don't have to. Either scroll past them manually, or try the "Add foe" function.
Just adding on to this as another moderator/administrator:
Absolutely. This is what we're encouraging here. We want your detailed thoughts, comments, and opinions.
Well, looks like I came out on top after all.
Although I'll refrain from posting two posts in a row, if possible, I most certainly won't change the way I write nor the volume of that which I write just because somebody was annoyed (if that was actually the reason, I've got other theories).
I like to write a lot in order to get every single detail on my thoughts on a particular point across. If that usually, or almost always, results in what something someone has called an "essay", you have the right to either read it or not.
It's certainly better than constant replies consisting of one or two lines with absolutely no content of any value to the conversation, which is the case I've been seeing in some of the users.
I view my large posts and efforts to get the conversations moving forward with as much content as commendable, not something to "freak out" about.
I may be rather recent to Kanzenshuu, but I've been a hardcore Dragonball fan all my life and I've produced DBZ-related material for over a decade now.
Thank you TripleRach, VegettoEX and the user who took it upon himself to send me a private message on this subject.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
If they don't appreciate my way of writing, my double-posts or the volume of my posts, well then... fuck them, really. :P
I understand where you're coming from but the best way to fight back is to just keep doing what you're doing and let them be the ones who stop posting.
Don't worry, one user has commended me on the length of my posts and on my participation in the forum altogether and then VegettoEX seconded her.
I guess they were put in their place and I ended up winning.
:lol:
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
For the record, I have absolutely no issue with the volume of your posts, MaGyunia. I was just making an observation before, and later explaining why other users might have commented on it. Hopefully, I did not offend by the "essay" comment. It's just, well, copying and pasting one of your posts on Word tells me it has over 500 words, which is the minimum requirement for many undergrad college papers. xD
Whatever animosity I demonstrated wasn't directed towards you at all. In fact, I found it amusing when you referred to my usual volume of posting as "essays". :D It's other types of attitudes generated by users with nothing to bring to the discussion(s) but empty sentences that I was telling off.
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[quote="Ajay"]Hey,
Hope those fools didn't get you too down. The new movie brought in a lot of awful members, but hopefully they haven't deterred you too much. Your posts are great, and totally in the spirit of this website. As someone who prefers to write a few 500-1000 word contributions in place of one-sentence offerings, it's refreshing to see someone else make the same effort.
As I said in my initial response, it's usually best just to report the message and move along. The moderation team will almost definitely have your back if you're not actively engaging anyone in conflict. No point wasting your words on imbeciles.
Looking forward to reading your thoughts on the upcoming episodes! :thumbup:
Ajay[/quote]
I appreciate your words. Sintzu also sent me two similar private messages.
Don't worry, the whole thing is done with. The moderators and VegettoEX pretty much commended my type/length of posts, which is an indirect rebuke of those two guys who all of a sudden chose to pick on whatever they could to try to get to me.
I don't really get down, I tend to get angry, especially after, in a matter of minutes, I receive two comments from users who criticized for what I would assume has to be pure jealousy for the fact that they're unable to produce any significant comments on anything or contribute to the development of points and interesting conversations on the threads, which is not only what I've been doing, it's also my style and a little bit of an obsession, to be honest with you.
On another note, I'm not criticizing anyone or anything, but sometimes it does get on my nerves to see people - in or outside Kanzenshuu - skipping parts of a "large" writing simply because there's "too much" to read. The way I see it, the more you have to contribute, and the more you write in a polite manner, the better.
It's a total contrast with what I see in a large percentage of users. They don't advance with the conversations and make no effort to generate deeper thoughts and concepts on the issues being discussed, either because they lack the ability to do so (laziness or intellectual shortcomings) or because all they have to put forth is one or two sentences or completely empty ramblings, but that's just me.
I'll refrain from double-posting, though, but I'll never change the way I write, the volume of my writings or the degree of detail to which I go when expressing different well-thought concepts that I really want to share with the community. That's the whole purpose of being here, and of the forum itself, I believe.
I checked the Forum Rules word-by-word yesterday after the incident, found something which pretty much substantiated my position, reported both of their attacks on me and they were scolded for it while I was pretty much commended by the moderators and VegettoEx.
I have a number of ideas flying in my mind, so I'll definitely generate more "essays", as the other guy put it - he's not a bad, jealous guy like the others, he's just lazy to read the entire thing - pretty soon.
I did report their messages towards me, as I mentioned before, but I've always had the philosophy that you should also defend yourself and make personally sure that someone who attacks you for no reason gets put in their place by your own hand as well.
Thanks again.
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Ok, so after putting some time apart and some effort, I decided to watch the last episodes of DBZ in a row over and over to get the same exact feeling the creators had when pondering on how and when to start off with the 2008 special, BoG and now DBSuper. Not even going to take into account or consider GT, Toriyama himself said it was a side-story much in the same lines the 4 DB Movies, the 13 DBZ Movies, Episode of Bardock and now the 2008 special, BoG anf Fukkatsu no F are, and I certainly won't go into details on GT's quality or shortcomings.
The 10 year-skip between episodes 288 and 289 gave us 10 years to explore, but it also presented the potential problem of making it so that whatever happens in either new movies or DBSuper will eventually and inevitablly lead to that (even for those who like the ending, knowing how the epilogue is going to be can be disappointing).
I must say that this was a rather positive experience, as I'm now more prepared to accept that the retelling of BoG in the form of the Beerus arc and the retelling of Fukkatsu no F as the Freeza arc in DBSuper can happen (about 10 years) before the introduction of Uub, and I can even go as far as to postulate theories on why Goku, Vegeta and the others (especially Gohan, who has the same degree of "non-fighting nerdness" in himself, present themselves the way they do in that last Tenkaichi Budokai and the way Goku fights Uub the way he does). Either it came about as pure chance or they put some effort and thought on being as close to those episodes made back in 1996 (19 years ago (!)), which makes me think that the chances of rectonning the end of DBZ are getting dimmer and dimmer, regardless of the need to do it depending on what happens in DBSuper (and when).
Obviously, this was in no way anticipated by Toriyama or anyone else back in 1996, but we could now add two and two and theorize that having fought Uub in his base form without going Super Saiya-jin (neither Full Power nor 2, nor God nor SSJGSSJG), Goku was at that time at the stage of being able to use the power and abilities of Super Saiya-jin God even without undergoing the actual physical transformation (something we saw in both BoG and Fukkatsu no F, an incorporation that Vegeta is himself shown to be capable of underdoing in the latter one). If we really put some effort on it, we could theorize that the atmosphere present in those last 3 episodes of DBZ could make it somewhat easier to accept that between the defeat of Kid Buu and that, the following events took place:
- Gohan and Videl got married
- Goku works as a farmer but eventually goes to train at Kaiou-sama's planet
- Beerus awakens and starts destroying planets randomly
- Beerus and Whis search for the Super Saiya-jin God
- Beerus fights Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and beats him to a pulp
- Beerus crashed Bulma's birthday party, knocks pretty much every fighter out
- Goku somehow (and this is where the main doubt regarding the Beerus' arc resides) attains the stage of Super Saiya-jin God and has a somewhat even fight with Beerus
- Beerus leaves, but Vegeta and Goku either express interest in being trained under Whis or it's Whis himself who suggests it to them
- Vegeta achieves the stage of Super Saiya-jin God (it's been debated a few days ago whether Vegeta would at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, and now at some point in DBSuper, become, or at least become able to turn into a Super Saiya-jin 3 before reaching SSJG)
- Both Goku and Vegeta "master" the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, incorporate its power, abilities and advantages and decide to go one step further and develop a new stage, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, whose characteristics could still be subject to some debate, but we'll get to that at a later point.
- Freeza is resurrected, trains for 4 months, achieves an enormous power-up and a new transformation, putting him on par with the likes of SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta.
- Freeza is defeated and killed either by Goku, just like in Fukkatsu no F, or by Vegeta.
- Whatever the hell happens in the 6th Universe arc (it would all be speculation, as we have no official info on it apart from the search for Super Dragon Balls and the introduction of extremely powerful antagonists/villains, against whom Goku and Vegeta, along with the Beerus/Whis duo, will be the main protagonists).
- Many years later (the exact number depending on when each event and arc takes place in DBSuper, which we still have to see), the last Tenkaichi Budokai in DBZ is held and Kid Buu's reincarnation, Uub, is introduced, displaying massive potential, while Goku leaves off to his village to train him (at this point, if my theory is correct, Vegeta has obviously far surpassed everyone - including Ultimate Gohan, Vegitto and any version of Majin Buu - except Goku, Beerus, Whis and whatever new extremely powerful characters will be presented throughout the 6th Universe arc in DBSuper.
We could only speculate on exactly how Champa and his attendant will be introduced, so I obviously didn't include it here, but my best guess is that he'll only make his appearance after the Freeza arc, in the "preparation" for the 6th Universe arc (he could be the Hakaishin of that Universe, it's a plausible scenario at this point).
Of course, there could still be a retcon and some sort of time-skip or time modifications which would make things even harder to comprehend and distinguish as far as the timeline is concerned, but I honestly believe they won't recton those last 3 episodes of DBZ at this point, regardless of how much I personally would like it to be "erased" from "canonness" or not.
(Final note on yesterday's episode: I'm not going to apologize a single time to anyone for the length either of this post, of any of my numerous previous posts or any further ones. I haven't disrespected anyone nor do intend to, and it's not really my problem that you have an issue with what even the moderators of the website themselves deemed as commendable and to be encouraged: writing as much as possible in a well-written, respectful and polite manner and expanding on/generating/contributing to discussions on the topics of each thread, instead of replying with virtually no content and empty sentences (it's actually in the Forum Rules). If you're unwilling or incapable of doing that, that's not my problem. I'll keep on writing just the way I did before and you can either choose not to read it partially or entirely, but save your jealousy for another person and take it somewhere else. I thank the moderators, VegettoEX and the ones who took it upon themselves to send me private messages on the subject, I appreciate those words, but I also feel that whenever you're attacked you should deal with the ones who attacked you directly by yourself. I hope the message comes across and puts a definitive stop to the issues created only and entirely by others. My way of writing is not to be criticized, it's actually praised and worthy of commendment, and Kanzenshuu can count on me to continue writing just the same volume of "essays" I always did in the future in order to contribute to encouraging and developing interesting and detailed points and conversations on DBSuper as a series and on Dragonball as a Universe we're all supposed to love, some more than others).
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ffxiimaniac wrote:
However, the problem of the series order still exists because of EoZ. To watch the whole story, you have to watch DB, then Z or Kai minus the last few episodes, then skip to Super, and then go back to the last few episodes of Z.
You're assuming they won't make their own version of "EoZ" in DBSuper later on though. I personally think they will. Though I don't have any proof, it's more of a "there's no proof against it" kinda thing.
We can only speculate at this point, but the fact that they had the guts to go down the road of actually retelling (and consequently "decanonizing") the events of BoG, a movie made in 2013, and Fukkatsu no F, made in 2015, only shows that the chances of a retelling (be it at a different timing or in different circumstances, or a complete change to the very core, even as far as "erasing" Uub from existence) of the last 3 episodes of DBZ could indeed happen.
Nobody saw it coming that they would either decide to start off with a new Dragonball series (although the purpose of the latest movies/specials, the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Kai and Fukkatsu no F may have served just that purpose on a deliberate manner) right after announcing and releasing a second full-fledged DBZ movie in two years (2013-2015) after so many years of inactivity between 1997 and 2008/2013. Nobody saw it coming that they would suddenly and rashly "decanonize" BoG and Fukkatsu no F and have their stories told pretty much in the same exact circumstances, with some minor changes and additions here and there, as adaptations in the form of arcs within DBSuper, after we all went through the process of accepting the Tarble special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of the series' one and only timeline, leading up to the last Tenkaichi Budokai at the end of DBZ.
The range and degree of surprising decisions they've been throwing our way makes it more than possible to retcon the end of DBZ, even going as far as erasing the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub as a character from "history". If they went this far, why not? Because it was made 19 years ago? That's not a sensible reason. The sheer passage of time and how old things are don't make them any more or less "untouchable".
Since we've got no official info nor have we seen the episodes at this point, the series' timeline could be one of the following two (excluding flashbacks, this is not a list of events in the DBZ Universe by chronological order):
Without touching the last episodes of DBZ:
Bardock Special - DB - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs - Trunks Special (alternate timeline) - Jinzouningen and Cell arcs - Movie 9 (debatable) - Majin Buu arc - First episodes of DBSuper - Beerus arc in DBSuper - Freeza arc in DBSuper - 6th Universe arc in DBSuper - last 3 episodes of DBZ
Changing the last episodes of DBZ:
Bardock Special - DB - DBZ Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs - Trunks Special (alternate timeline) - Jinzouningen and Cell arcs - Movie 9 (debatable) - Majin Buu arc - First episodes of DBSuper - Beerus arc in DBSuper - Freeza arc in DBSuper - 6th Universe arc in DBSuper (and who knows what else they come up with after that as a potential ending for DBSuper and/or a follow-up for even more new material).
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The battle-packed episodes are the ones at the majority throughout DB and DBZ, and the same will likely apply to DBSuper. The battle outfits, regardless of the state they're in during/after the fights, are the ones picked to do battle. If you add these two things, you end up with the obvious conclusion that what we'll see most of time in the major (fighting) protagonists will be them in their particularly chosen battle outfits, which means Vegeta will be wearing and fighting in his Saiya-jin-based armor during at least the entirety of the Beerus arc while Goku will choose his usual clothes, putting the exceptional farming and blue/white training with the Kaiou-sama symbol on the back to the sidelines as soon as Beerus makes his appearence.
Goku's outfit throughout DB and DBZ is one of the most identifiable things about him, but it did go through a number of changes as far as symbols go and the exact color of the shirt underneath his main Doji (in late DB it was a red/black combination with the Kame symbol, it evolved to an orange/dark blue combo in the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs with both the Kaiou-sama symbol on it and then, apart from his Yardrat clothes and the ones he wore for the driving license episode, from the Jinzouningen arc onwards and until the defeat of Kid Buu, the colors are the same but the symbol disappears altogether. He has regressed in the 2008 special and in BoG, namely as far as the presence of his symbol goes, and continued the trend in DBSuper. One more instance of an exception was during the Cell arc, in which he wears Saiya-jin-based armor to train with Gohan and then wears casual clothes for the 10 days leading up to the Cell Games.
Vegeta started off with royal Saiya-jin armor on top of what would be a smaller version of his Majin Buu arc outfit, and then went on to loose the cape as an adult, discarded additional parts in the first half of the Freeza saga, chose another armor against Freeza himself and went for a Saiya-jin-based armor during the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, with a few exceptions in episodes where he's not fighting (his "infamous" pink shirt and yellow pants during Trunks' arrival, training in shorts for the Jinzouningen, wearing a casual yellow shirt in episode 167, and several other instances of one-time, one-episode appearences with casual wear, such as in episode 194, when Mirai no Trunks departs to the future again after the Cell Games). 7 years later he's seen wearing as much as 4 different sets of training/casual sets of clothing before and after a new Tenkaichi Budokai is announced (namely when adult Gohan visist Bulma, when he trains with Trunks, when he's on the plane to the tournament island, when Goku talks to them from the Other World), and then we have the Majin Buu outfit. He most likely picked that up just for the Tenkaichi Budokai and ended up stuck with it for the entirety of the Majin Buu arc until Kid Buu was defeated and peace returned (we see him in casual wear already in episodes 287 and 288). 10 years later he visits Goku with more casual wear, including a nice jacket, and then he wears an even more "humanized" version of a training attire for the last Tenkaichi Budokai in which Uub is introduced.
Most people would think that any movies/specials/entire series made after the Majin Buu arc and taking place after it in the timeline would have Vegeta wearing that outfit, but he too regressed to his Saiya-jin-based armor he worn throughout the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs for the 2008 special, BoG and DBSuper (after wearing the casual clothes we saw in episode 2, of course), which further suggests that the outfit he wore for the entirety of the Majin Buu arc was indeed just a one-day choice which he was stuck with for obvious reasons. His outfit in Fukkatsu no F, along with Goku's, are slight adaptations of their most notable and identifiable training/fighting outfits, even as far as design and coloring goes.
I'm not going to go in detail into the outfits worn by Gohan, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Bulma, Muten Roshi, Gyumao, Chi Chi, Videl, Trunks, Goten, etc. I might do it later.
Obviously, the clothes worn throughout the 13 Movies reflect the saga/era/timing at which the events depicted in them WOULD have taken place, with a few instances of special outfits (Goku in a suit in Movie 8, Gohan with his early Saiya-jin arc clothes in Movie 4, Gohan with his Jinzouningen arc outfit in Movie 8 and the Hatchiyakku OVA, etc.)
And yeah, it's obvious that in between any major arc in DBSuper, just like throughout DBZ, whenever there's no fighting going on at that particular time or for an extended and anticipated period of time, especially Vegeta and Gohan will go for casual wear, much in the same way we've been seeing them on numerous instances throughout all the arcs of DBZ.
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irreality wrote:
Cetra wrote:
Then I suppose his casual home outfit was not normal?
I assume it is normal for when he is being casual. :) If he is just training with Trunks maybe he just wears a shirt and sweatpants. But I think in the JSAT he mentions that the armor is formalwear? So maybe he wears it when he is feeling "serious" about training or fighting.
To be true, in Saiya-jin mentality terms, "formality" and "fighting" really go hand in hand.
You're right, irreality, but I didn't specify why he chose that particular piece of clothing for the Majin Buu arc, I just said he was stuck with it for the entirety of the saga, as in, if he knew there were going to be major battles he would most likely have chosen his most notable outfit (that of the Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, the 2008 special, BoG and DBSuper) or some variation of it.
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Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Araki wrote:
Leaving aside the fact it's too soon to get August information and the copy/pasted staff, seeing those pictures they had, the ones for episodes 6-8 look fake.
Also i think since we know Champa is showing up, possibly in episode 5, and even in that first promo we've seen Beerus meeting him, there's a good chance the movie events won't be followed so closely and quickly like that.
I still think Champa was only animated for that promo everything in the promo we have seen so far, and I think he will meet Beerus post BoG as it's clear they don't meet on Earth and with Beerus is already heading to King Kai's planet/Earth so the only way they could be is after BoG stuff. They could tease Champa like the Manga did but that's all I think they'll do
They're retelling the events of BoG in the Beerus arc of DBSuper almost in a sentence-by-sentence basis, with minor changes here and there and introducing the elements at a different timing. That's all there is to it. Even Goku's fight against Beerus will take place in Kaiou-sama's planet, Goku will get beaten to a pulp just like he did in the movie and then Beerus will move on to Earth to confront the others in a context of Bulma's birthday celebration, eventually losing it, knocking everyone out and being challenged by Goku as a Super Saiya-jin God, only to leave after the fight ends.
Again, we can only speculate at this point, but I'd go as far as to say that we'll only be introduced to Champa after not only the Beerus arc but actually in fact AFTER the Freeza arc, or during it. Since we'll be getting an arc dealing with the exploration of another Universe, it's only fitting that Champa, who is most likely Beerus' Hakaishin version of the 6th (or another) Universe, will appear for the first time in that arc or at the very most in the episodes leading up to it.
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It's actually good to get a break from the routine of one new episode per week(end). Even though, just by the name of the upcoming episodes, and pretty much just plain reasoning, we know exactly what to expect in the episodes of the Beerus and Freeza arcs in DBSUper, I myself feel a degree of pressure to watch the episodes exactly at the same time in which they're airing in Japan.
It's still hard to grasp the concept of having an entire new full-fledged Dragonball series after 18 years (!). I guess we could look at the material in recent years (2008 special, Kai, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Fukkatsu no F) as a - deliberate or not - follow-up to the REAL meat: an entire series. We could thus debate whether the period of real inactivity was between 1997 and 2008 or in fact between 1997 and 2015.
The kind of emotions we've all experienced when DBSuper debuted and those first images of Dragonball showed on Fuji TV at 9:00 in Japan (1am in my country) were one of the best experiences I've had recently, but it's obviously gradually decreasing, which is just natural and to be expected.
The only setback the lack of an episode this week represents is the fact that we won't get the storyline moving along, and a large chunk of fans are badly wanting to get these episodes retelling the exact same events (with some minor changes) of BoG "out of the way" so we come closer and closer to the real introduction of entirely new characters, concepts, stages and villains. That will only happen to the degree most fans want it in the 6th Unvierse arc. I hope they infuse at least a slighter higher degree of desperation, seriousness and drama in the circumstances in which Beerus meets Goku and the others and then when Freeza reappears and fights Goku and Vegeta, but the real mistake would be not to put that degree of seriousness and drama in the 6th Universe arc. We should all understand and accept by now that the old days of genocidal maniacal villains, blood and guts and extreme violence we witnessed and were presented with in the later stages of DB and the entirety of all arcs throughout DBZ is gone and belongs to Dragonball's untouchable history back from now long-gone 80's and 90's, but I would be slightly disappointed if they don't at least involve a number of deaths and that feeling of hopelessness/desperate hope later in DBSuper.
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Focusing only on (major) villains from the 13 Movies, my favorites have always been Tullece, Cooler, Brolly and Janenba. I've never been a fan on Tapion, myself (no more space for heroes when you've got an entire team of Saiya-jin/half-Saiya-jin hybrids/Namek-sei-jins forming the strongest set of warriors in the entire Unvierse). I can't speculate a scenario in which ANY character or stage seen only in the movies could be brought back and made canon in DBSuper, though. It's just too far-fetched a scenario.
Brolly is indeed by far the most overrated villain arising from the movies, especially when it comes to his power. Throughout the years I've seen DBZ fans going as far as estimating his power level to be close to that of Super Vegitto, which is laughable. That most likely, or almost certainly, has to do with the fact that he's a badass psychotic maniac with a number of particular physical/mental qualities which make him one of the fans' favorites. I've always looked at Cooler as a much more serious/to-the-point version of Freeza, without the whole glamour + terror surrounding the character. Even the tone of his voice, in comparison with Freeza's, gives the viewers that impression. He lacks some of the psychotic traits of Freeza but retains the same level of power (or, in fact, going a bit further than Freeza did, with a fifth brutal transformation).
The stories of the movies are in their majority weak to the point of reaching the borders of ridiculousness, but you couldn't expect much more from a set of hastily-invented stories exploring and expanding upon the concept of villains with some potential to them, which also happened to be made for commercial purposes, with a "striking while the iron is hot" mentality.
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AvatarReiko wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
Brolly is indeed by far the most overrated villain arising from the movies, especially when it comes to his power. Throughout the years I've seen DBZ fans going as far as estimating his power level to be close to that of Super Vegitto, which is laughable.
Hardly. The dude one shotted an entire galaxy.
He was defeated by the combined powers of Super Saiya-jin Full Power Goku, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Trunks, Super Saiya-jin Gohan and post-fusion Piccolo, and Movie 8 is supposed to have taken place (although it didn't) in the 10 year gap between the announcement of the Cell Games and the Cell Games themselves, which suggests that the level of power Goku and the others have is around what they have in that period. If he had been anywhere close to Super Vegitto he could never have been defeated by ANY combination of powers from the Cell Games period. He appears again in Movie 10 and is shown to surpass what would be an adult Gohan who is at that time slightly weaker as a Super Saiya-jin 2 than he was when he thrashed Cell. Both Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiya-jin 2 throughout the Majin Buu arc far surpass even teen Gohan's level of power (stated by Piccolo, as he watches Majin Vegeta vs fat Majin Buu), Super Saiya-jin 3 Gohan/Ultimate Gohan surpass SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta, and Super Vegitto is about twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan. Brolly is nowhere near the leagues of Vegitto, or in fact of a number of fighters throughout the Majin Buu arc. He's a badass and goes around destroying entire galaxies in bursts of psychosis with what APPEARS to be an immeasurable and invincible amount of power, but things need to be put into perspective and we have the tools to reason and compare his power. Piccolo Daimao was the incarnation of evil and a major psychotic badass without any trace of good or sanity in him and he turns out to be a weakling when compared to even the weakest fighters as early as the Saiya-jin saga.
I would estimate Super Saiya-jin Brolly (and Bio Brolly, for that matter) to be in tier of Cell in his perfect stage, before he received his Zenkai after the massive explosion and came back.
Doesn't mean I'm not a fan of him. He's pretty much the incarnation of the concept of invincibility in a villain. He doesn't want to conquer, doesn't want to rule, he can barely talk, he's an insane psychotic force of nature who happens to be the legendary Super Saiya-jin, going around breaking and destroying everything and everyone in sight and laughing maniacally after he does it, which suits me just fine when it comes to the character/personality + power level combo in a villain. I remember being a child in the 90's and - being a hardcore fan of Goku and the others, as any child/teenager was - literally crying over their inability to even hurt him.
The particular purpose to make a movie around Brolly was to explore the specific aspect of the REAL legendary Super Saiya-jin, and as a result of that Movie 8 arguably turned out to be one of the best movies from the 13 of DBZ.
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BlackCatScott wrote:
How many episodes do we think it will take to get through the Battle of Gods / Resurrection F content per arc?
It won't be much more than around 20 episodes to get through the Battle of Gods story surely?
This could be totally wrong, but we do have some instruments to try and measure how many episodes it COULD take to go through the entire retelling of the Beerus events in DBSuper. In BoG, Beerus shows up in Kaiou-sama's at the 20th minute of the extended version of the movie, which is about one fifth into it. We already know from episode 3's preview that Beerus will be on Kaiou-sama's planet in the fourth episode already. Goku turns Super Saiya-jin 3 and starts fighting Beerus in the 26th minute, and by the 27th he's knocked out. Given the title of the fifth episode of DBSuper, it's obvious that at least part of the fight will take place in that episode (and I assume it will be the whole thing, as it certainly won't take Beerus much longer than it did in the movie to KO Goku). Beerus is shown to be on Earth for the first time at the 32nd minute of the movie (probably episode 6 of the series), loses his temper in the 56th minute (a little over halfway through the movie, and most likely retold in the 7th episode of the series) and I'd bet Goku shows up to prevent Beerus from destroying the Earth right at the end of the 7th episode; in the movie, he shows up in the 65th minute. (Vegeta will lose it and attack Beerus over Bulma in that episode as well, as it happens in the 61st minute of the movie, before Goku shows up). They call Shenlong in the 68th minute, Goku tries the ritual for the first time at minute 73, a second (successful) time 3 minutes later and goes on to fight Beerus as a Super Saiya-jin God from the 78th minute until pretty much the end of the movie. We could speculate that Goku tries going/goes SSJG in episode 8, they have a major battle in episode 9 which spills over to episode 10, and it'll be over by the end of that episode. In episode 11, if it all goes exactly (or almost) the way it did in the BoG, we'll see Beerus pondering on the fight he just had, and either Champa appears in episode 12 or we'll get one or two smoother episodes leading up to the reappearance of Freeza, by episode 14 or 15. I would assume the number of episodes dedicated to the retelling of Fukkatsu no F would be around the same (10/11 episodes), so we could be moving on to entirely new material, past the retelling of the movies, by episode 23/25 of DBSuper.
Obviously, all of this is assuming that there won't be any major changes in the way Beerus interacts with Vegeta and the others on Earth, or in the way Goku achieves Super Saiya-jin God, or some unexpected surprise which introduces a totally new concept unseen in BoG.
The pace at which things are moving when compared to the timing of the movie (episodes 4 and 5 refer to events occurring one fifth into BoG, for example) would make it possible to postulate that it will never take longer than 11/12 (13, at most) episodes to get through the story of BoG, the same applying to Fukkatsu no F.
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It certainly won't take anything even close to 40 episodes to get "past" the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F. According to those speculations/calculations, we should be "done" with those two arcs by episode 23/25, at most. This isn't really SSJ Goku vs Freeza on Namek, or SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell charging a Kamehameha for an entire episode before the arc's climax and end (episode 190).
Pondering a little bit on that, it really is amazing the amount of filler material they (had to) put into DBZ as a series of episodes. It's no wonder that Kai is composed of just a little over half of the total number of original DBZ episodes. It basically means that a third to half of the material was not present in the manga, was entirely made up in a rush and stuffed into the episodes, or even entire arcs (Garlic Jr.) were just invented to give Toriyama time to develop new concepts properly.
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I haven't double posted a single time, nor do I intend to, ever since I was asked by the moderators to avoid doing so.
The reaction you're referring to on my part was in a context of a triple-sided attack on my way of posting, beyond the mere fact of double-posting, but criticizing the length of my posts, which was acknowledged (and is indeed in the Forum Rules as well) by the moderators themselves as something to be commended and encouraged, not subject to attacks. After the episode I said I would refrain from double-posting and I've been doing so ever since then, and will continue to do so. Perhaps you missed the episode in the other thread, your answer came a bit late and out of place, as the matter had been solved for a number of days now.
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Lord Beerus wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:
I think the Beerus saga will be done by late August or September. We will likely won't see the whole Dragon Ball mutliverse hunt until by December by the earliest.
I imagine after the God Of Destruction/Beerus arc, we're gonna get some cool down episodes to see what the Z-Fighters get up once the battle with Beerus is over. Then after that, straight into the Resurrection F arc.
Exactly, that's what you'd expect taking into account the pattern of Dragonball. We've had that in the episodes between every major arc throughout DBZ (the episode dedicated to Krillin's proposal to Marron, the Goku/Piccolo driving license episode before the start of the Jinzouningen arc, the entire Garlic Jr. saga between the Freeza and the Jinzouningen arcs, etc., the entire Great Sayaman episodes focusing on Gohan/Videl leading up to the Tenkaichi Budokai, etc.).
If my exercise earlier today was close to what we'll actually get, I'd say that we'll be done with the Beerus arc by episode 10-12, we'll get one or two smooth episodes (pretty much along the lines of the first two family-oriented in the series) and then we'll move on to the Freeza arc, by episode 14-16 or something like that. The same would apply to the space between the Freeza arc and the 6th Universe arc, obviously.
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Blackstripe wrote:
Are they planning on making more movies in the future, I wonder?
I'd say there's a 50-50% chance of making movies WHILE DBSuper is running. It all depends on how many episodes the series will consist of, and consequently for how much time (months, years) it will run. However, after DBSuper is done with, and taking into account the fact that all of a sudden they started throwing movies and specials and new material our way beginning in 2008 after 11 years of absolute inactivity, I think it's almost certain that more movies will be made; the only question is whether the events depicted in them will be canon or not, we really can't be sure especially after they unexpectedly decided to "decanonize" both BoG and Fukkatsu no F just two years and a few months, respectively, after they were released as canon continuations of DBZ. I'm also positive that a few years from now we'll eventually get yet another series as well. Dragonball' potential is virtually limitless, it just won't end. The timing of the storyline of said future series will depend on exactly when (in Dragonball's Universe and timeline) DBSuper as a story will end, and that would eventually and inevitably lead us to the whole "retconning the last three episodes of DBZ" all over again; but I'd say let's just focus on what we have in our hands right now (for those disappointed with the pace at which we're moving on with the Beerus arc and desperately waiting for the real entirely new material, you'll just have to be patient and suck it up until the 6th Universe arc starts, but even before then there'll be PLENTY of stuff to enjoy, some of which we've already seen in the movie(s) and some of which will be totally new and unexpected).
I honestly think that although the period of inactivity between 1997 and 2008 was only partially deliberate, as Toriyama and friends needed some time off of constantly coming up with creative concepts and character backgrounds, it was also partially meant to function as a clear division between the target audience the first DB/DBZ/DBGT was directed towards back in the 80's and 90's and what could be called "Dragonball: round 2", aiming at both the old audiences who grew up with the series decades ago and reaching new ones as well, which is the stage of the process we're at right now.
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Regardless of how many episodes it will take for DBSuper to cover the retelling of BoG and Fukkatsu no F as arcs, and the potential episodes in-between, what I'm really hoping to see - and would be frustrated if they ended up not showing it - is the off-screen events which "took place" between the two movies, namely just why they suddenly decided to revive Freeza in this particular period, Freeza's training to reach such a massive increase in the level of his power, Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God himself and his and Goku's decision to go off to train under Whis (or Whis' suggestion that they do so, if they choose to have it happen that way).
If they're deliberately making it so that the time at which the Freeza arc within DBSuper will be running matches the official release date in most countries for Fukkatsu no F, it more or less confirms these speculations and expectations.
With all the info we've got and judging by the pace at which they're moving with the Beerus arc when you compare it to the movie, and assuming they're going to apply the same formula to the Freeza arc, we can estimate with a pretty high degree of certainty that it shouldn't take more than 10-12 episodes for each of the two arcs, with one or two episodes in-between. That's just a simple formula.
I wouldn't say the chances of Tarble being (re)introduced are next to 0%, but I really don't think it's going to happen. If it did, however, it would make more sense if he appeared during the Beerus arc instead of after it, as the main point or reason for his introduction would be the fact that he could be needed to undergo the ritual for Goku to reach Super Saiya-jin God, but we'll just have to wait and see how exactly they'll get around the whole thing about Goku reaching SSJG (they could keep the ritual replacing Pan by Tarble, by reducing the number of Saiya-jin needed or they could even go for an entire change in the way the stage is reached, turning it into something that can be achieved without the help of others, through some other method - all speculation, we'll just have to wait for the episodes in the next few weeks).
Again, I can't really see them extending the combination of the Beerus and Freeza arcs for longer than 23-25 episodes, and for some fans that's already pushing it, as in, 23 to 25 episodes of retelling events which we've already been introduced to in almost the exact circumstances in BoG and Fukkatsu no F.
Much like in Kai, we may get a new opening/closing for each arc. That makes sense. But by a new opening and closing I mean a few adaptations to the images shown, not to the songs, obviously. The opening song (along with the images) for DBSuper STILL has me mesmerized. Can't get it out of my head.
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Noah wrote:
I would like to see Vegeta turning into a Super Saiyan God and how he and Goku achieve the SSJGSSJ transformation
Yeah, forgot to mention that one in the list of off-screen stuff I'd like to see which "happened" between BoG and Fukkatsu no F. I've always defended that before Vegeta achieves the same state as Goku (being able to "incorporate" the abilities and power of the Super Saiya-jin God stage even in his base form), at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F he underwent the exact same process, putting him on par with Goku in terms of power by the time they're training under Whis. However, if that wasn't enough, both Goku and Vegeta decided to improve on the previous stage and go for a new one, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, and I can't wait to see both why they chose to do it (although I've got my own theories on that) and HOW they did it.
I even went as far as to speculate that at some point - either after or during the Beerus arc in DBSuper - Vegeta would ALSO become, or at least be able to become, a Super Saiya-jin 3, which would mean he would be following Goku's exact steps as far as gradual and incremental stages go, only a little bit later. However, for some reason I don't think the SSJ3 Vegeta theory is going to become a reality.
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I didn't say I thought my theory on a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta was probably not going to happen because it would be stupid or because it would be just too difficult for him to achieve it through intense training and a combination of other factors like Goku did back in the 7 year gap between the Cell arc and the Majin Buu arc, I merely postulated it because, the way I see it, Vegeta is "always one step behind Goku" (sometimes even literally in SSJ stages), but this time around it has become apparent that they're trying to put/push him to Goku's level, or close to that, which means achieving the same stages, to match the degree of co-protagonism he'll be enjoying throughout DBSuper along with Goku, as far as the good guys go; according to this view, instead of "skipping" Super Saiya-jin 3 and going from Super Saiya-jin 2 as his strongest stage directly to Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, Vegeta would first of all attain SSJ3, but, like I said, I don't think it's going to happen, for more than one reason, some of which you've actually already pointed out.
I've always viewed BOTH the Super Saiya-jin God AND the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages as rather separate transformations, arising through a totally different method and granting the Saiya-jin an entirely different set of skills and abilities, other than a massive increase in Ki. The best way to make you understand my train of thought in this regard is to tell you that in my perspective all Super Saiya-jin stages (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3) are built upon the previous one, and you can hardly skip one to reach the next one, as in, we're talking about an incremental, step-by-step buildup.
On the other hand, I've also always defended ever since I pondered on the events of BoG that the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, other than granting the Saiya-jin a set of "godly" abilities, gives him a boost in sheer power when compared to his - at that time - STRONGEST stage (in Goku's case, Super Saiya-jin 3). As a result of that, if (or rather, when) Vegeta achieves Super Saiya-jin God, in order to be as strong/almost as strong as Goku in the same stage, his previous maximum should be the same (Super Saiya-jin 3, not Super Saiya-jin 2).
This could all be wrong, it's just a theory, regardless of how much I'd like it to be true - it could very well be that the Super Saiya-jin God stage merely grants a particular Saiya-jin the degree of power Goku displays against Beerus in BoG regardless of how powerful he was to begin with. Shenlong does specify that the original Super Saiya-jin God in Planet Vegeta wiped out the Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye before his massive power drained, but we can't really place him and his SSJG transformation in any tier based on that, as any major character/fighter by the Jinzouningen arc onwards would be able to "wipe out the evil Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye" just the same with they power they had.
Discussing how exactly each SSJ stage is attain(able) is another matter and we could be here for hours. It's rather obvious that the very first Super Saiya-jin stage is reached through a powerful Saiya-jin's explosion of anger, whereas, for example, the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage Vegeta uses against Cell was attained after a year-long period of intense training, tapping into his fighting genius as well. Super Saiya-jin 2 is another matter, as Gohan achieved it through a combination of incredible hidden potential + explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta arguably lacked these circumstances and reached the stage as well.
For all we know, there could be a limit to how many transformations/stages a Saiya-jin can achieve, and SSJ3 could indeed be the very last, limit one. After that, if the Saiya-jin wants to go even further than that, then either the theory is wrong and there are further possible transformations even beyond SSJ3 (which by now has obviously rendered totally obsolete, for more than one reason), or they can go for the exponential power-up provided by the achievement of Super Saiya-jin God (and, after that, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). The Super Saiya-jin transformations, regardless of whether they're supposed to follow a "building up on the previous one" setting or not, could, for all we know, be endless.
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I didn't say I thought my theory on a Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta was probably not going to happen because it would be stupid or because it would be just too difficult for him to achieve it through intense training and a combination of other factors like Goku did back in the 7 year gap between the Cell arc and the Majin Buu arc, I merely postulated it because, the way I see it, Vegeta is "always one step behind Goku" (sometimes even literally in SSJ stages), but this time around it has become apparent that they're trying to put/push him to Goku's level, or close to that, which means achieving the same stages, to match the degree of co-protagonism he'll be enjoying throughout DBSuper along with Goku, as far as the good guys go; according to this view, instead of "skipping" Super Saiya-jin 3 and going from Super Saiya-jin 2 as his strongest stage directly to Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, Vegeta would first of all attain SSJ3, but, like I said, I don't think it's going to happen, for more than one reason, some of which you've actually already pointed out.
I've always viewed BOTH the Super Saiya-jin God AND the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stages as rather separate transformations, arising through a totally different method and granting the Saiya-jin an entirely different set of skills and abilities, other than a massive increase in Ki. The best way to make you understand my train of thought in this regard is to tell you that in my perspective all Super Saiya-jin stages (Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai, Super Saiya-jin Full Power, Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3) are built upon the previous one, and you can hardly skip one to reach the next one, as in, we're talking about an incremental, step-by-step buildup.
On the other hand, I've also always defended ever since I pondered on the events of BoG that the stage of Super Saiya-jin God, other than granting the Saiya-jin a set of "godly" abilities, gives him a boost in sheer power when compared to his - at that time - STRONGEST stage (in Goku's case, Super Saiya-jin 3). As a result of that, if (or rather, when) Vegeta achieves Super Saiya-jin God, in order to be as strong/almost as strong as Goku in the same stage, his previous maximum should be the same (Super Saiya-jin 3, not Super Saiya-jin 2).
This could all be wrong, it's just a theory, regardless of how much I'd like it to be true - it could very well be that the Super Saiya-jin God stage merely grants a particular Saiya-jin the degree of power Goku displays against Beerus in BoG regardless of how powerful he was to begin with. Shenlong does specify that the original Super Saiya-jin God in Planet Vegeta wiped out the Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye before his massive power drained, but we can't really place him and his SSJG transformation in any tier based on that, as any major character/fighter by the Jinzouningen arc onwards would be able to "wipe out the evil Saiya-jin in the blink of an eye" just the same with they power they had.
Discussing how exactly each SSJ stage is attain(able) is another matter and we could be here for hours. It's rather obvious that the very first Super Saiya-jin stage is reached through a powerful Saiya-jin's explosion of anger or extreme frustration (in Goku's case, over Freeza brutally murdering Krillin; in Gohan's over his anger at having always been a spoiled brat; in Mirai no Trunks' case, over the death of Gohan; in Vegeta's case, over his utter frustration at the fact he can't overcome Kakarotto; in Bardock's case, over the deaths of his comrades and his newly-made friends in Planet Plant), whereas, for example, the Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage Vegeta uses against Cell was attained after a year-long period of intense training, tapping into his fighting genius as well. Super Saiya-jin 2 is another matter, as Gohan achieved it through a combination of incredible hidden potential + explosion of anger, while Goku and Vegeta arguably lacked these circumstances and reached the stage as well.
For all we know, there could be a limit to how many transformations/stages a Saiya-jin can achieve, and SSJ3 could indeed be the very last, limit one. After that, if the Saiya-jin wants to go even further than that, then either the theory is wrong and there are further possible transformations even beyond SSJ3 (which by now has obviously been rendered totally obsolete, for more than one reason), or they can go for the exponential power-up provided by the achievement of Super Saiya-jin God (and, after that, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). The Super Saiya-jin transformations, regardless of whether they're supposed to follow a "building up on the previous one" setting or not, could, for all we know, be endless.
Basically, regarding SSJG, and to summarize, I've defended the theory that it increments a Saiya-jin's power by a given measurable percentage on an exponential basis, based on his previous STRONGEST stage, pretty much like the Kaio-Ken technique. If this theory were correct, and if Vegeta turned (turns) Super Saiya-jin God when his strongest stage is only Super Saiya-jin 2, then his power level would be far below Goku's as a SSJG, since Goku's maximum, on which the transformation is based, is above Vegeta (Super Saiya-jin 3). The only reason why I postulated the theory of Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 was in line with this other theory, as in, in order to put Vegeta entirely on par with Goku, he would first of all have to become as strong as Goku was BEFORE either of them reached Super Saiya-jin God (which means Super Saiya-jin 3).
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Hi,
I have a set of questions for you, just to get some stuff out of the way all at the same time.
We've already solved my double-posting problem, I acknowledged my mistake and will refrain from doing it. That's entirely out of the way by now.
You've commended me on the length of my posts, if not directly, then implicitly, as (and this is stated in the Forum Rules as well) the more well-written and content-packed the posts are, the better, so long as they don't deviate from the point or disrespect any of the other rules of the forum. However, regardless of the lack of availability on the part of some users to read my obsessively long posts, which I'm not criticizing, I'd ask you to be fully direct with me and let me know if there's something about my posting frequency/length/type you'd like me to change, so I can improve the level of acceptance by the community in general. I obviously understand you want as many detailed and well-written content in the users' posts as possible, but I'm just not sure whether or not I'm just going too far with the the frequency and especially with how long my posts in fact are. Please let me know your exact position on that.
You don't have to answer the following question, but I'll ask it anyway: as a careful moderator, you most likely keep an eye mostly on new members who may be a little bit more unpredictable and susceptible of going against the rules somehow, but do you, or any other moderator(s), read through the entire posts submitted by everyone from beginning to end? I'm asking this out of sheer curiosity, as I'm fully aware of the fact that my posts are indeed usually quite lengthy and I might have been giving you additional trouble with that.
I would like, and I've been giving my best, to generate as many conversations, discussions, points, theories, etc., on DBSuper and Dragonball altogether, and to some degree I've managed to do it, but I must be frank with you and tell you that the amount of interesting views, points and theories developed by the users is far beyond what would make me, personally, happy with, in terms of quantity/quality of time spent here discussing Dragonball-related issues. Is there any way I can personally help other than by keeping doing what I've been doing since you accepted me in the forum? I understand that it's pointless to suggest that you let users create new threads on their own accord, as it would make it much harder to control the quality and flow of the threads, but I'm just frustrated by the almost total lack of interesting discussions. I'd like more users to be present, although I understand that all of us have our own private lives and work to live and do, but it seems that whenever some potentially interesting point is introduced, it generates two or three one or two-sentence replies and it ends right there. Could we make a joint effort to further develop the intellectual perspective of the users' participation in the website and the forum's discussions, along with its quality?
Thank you in advance for the time spent and the potential attention given to all ramifications of this message, and I'd be delighted to receive an answer from you regarding each and every one of the issues I mentioned.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
If Vegeta turns Super Saiya-jin God when his strongest stage is only Super Saiya-jin 2, then his power level would be far below Goku's as a SSJG, since Goku's maximum, on which the transformation is based, is above Vegeta (Super Saiya-jin 3).
When they fought in the Buu arc with their Ssj2 forms they're power was equal to one another which means Goku having Ssj3 doesn't mean he's stronger then Vegeta when they're in they're base ,ssj&ssj2 forms which means they'll be equal or pretty close to each other when they attain the Ssjg form.
What I meant to say was like the following: if my theory on the exponential percentual boost in power given by the Super Saiya-jin God transformation is right (that means, it boost to a given percentage the maximum power level achievable by a given Saiya-jin), then if, for the sake of argument and simplicity, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta is a 10, his power level in the SSJG stage would be a 30, while Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, who is a 15, would have a power level in the SSJG stage of 45. I'm talking about their maximum's here. If this is correct, and if Vegeta has indeed caught up with Goku by Fukkatsu no F, then when he turns Super Saiya-jin God at some point in DBSuper (becoming a "45" just like Goku), he must be transforming building up on his previous maximum (15, just like Goku, as in, Super Saiya-jin 3).
I've tried with different methods but I'm not sure I'm getting my point across too well regarding my theory on the possibility of Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegeta and the amount to which the stage of Super Saiya-jin God increases one's power, and how exactly it works altogether.
Nevertheless you're right, although Goku could have gone Super Saiya-jin 3 and easily beat Majin Vegeta, when they fought each other in the early Majin Buu arc, both of them as Super Saiya-jin 2, they're virtually equal. Goku would always have the edge, though, as he could go SSJ3 at any moment and keep from being killed in the fight (Vegeta does try to actually kill him more than once, it's not just physical punishment), which is something Vegeta couldn't do (neither at that point nor as late as the timing at which BoG takes place, as far as we know) and a piece of rather important information Goku kept hidden from Vegeta, which in turn sparks rage on Vegeta's part later on when discussing fusion, as Goku deliberately held back a yet more powerful transformation and was basically holding back when he fought Vegeta, which is one of the most serious humiliations Vegeta's pride could suffer, especially coming from Kakarotto.
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
The fact that the original Saiya-jin in Planet Vegeta became SSJG and indeed reach that insane level of power, even though he was just a regular Saiya-jin, suggests that ANY Saiya-jin, regardless of their power, if "by chance" (mentioned in BoG) underwent the ritual, would become stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and basically as strong as Goku was when he fought Beerus in his SSJG state.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/
Interviewer : Is it possible that other Saiyans will be able to become [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
Toriyama : Of course. However, strength will vary depending on the battle power of the Saiyan who becomes [Super Saiyan] God.
So it's like I said,the power a Saiyan gets from the form depends on his base power,not his strongest form so even though Vegeta might not have Ssj3 he'll still be equal to Goku due to his base power being equal to his.
When he says "battle power" he doesn't specify whether he's referring to the Saiya-jin's base power level or to the maximum he can output in his strongest Super Saiya-jin stage. By "battle power of the the Saiyan" he could very well be meaning the strongest a Saiya-jin can be when he pushes it to his limits (be it Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3 or whatever). Sorry, but I don't accept that as definitive proof that the Super Saiya-jin God transformation enhances the Saiya-jin's Ki in his base power.
We're postulating and going in depth into two different theories, but whichever ones turns out to be true, if it's yours, then Vegeta would become either as strong as Goku in his SSJG/SSJGSSJ stage or even stronger, and it would also make the power level of the original Saiya-jin who turned SSJG by chance back on Planet Vegeta leagues below that of most fighters at this stage, given the fact that a normal, low-class Saiya-jin's power level would never go beyond anything like 2.000 or 3.000.
We have to note that "as soon" as a Saiya-jin becomes able to go Super Saiya-jin, we need to consider not only his power level in his base form, but his power level in this transformed state, which isn't the case with regular Saiya-jins who didn't manage to reach Super Saiya-jin (which was 99% of the race, including the one on Planet Vegeta who went SSJG).
And it's interesting to note that, although the theory of the Super Saiya-jin God transformation increasing the power level of a Saiya-jin on a multiplying basis, just like Kaio-Ken, there's a big difference between the way these two work. Kaio-Ken becomes completely obsolete as soon as Goku reaches Super Saiya-jin, and he never uses it again (except against Paiku-han, but that's non-canon, and even it if had actually happened, calling it "Super Kaio-Ken" or something like that, it didn't have any effect on Goku's power level). The Kaio-Ken technique is the one which, unlike SSJG, increases the Saiya-jin's power level taking into account his base form, I highly doubt it has ANY effect when used after Goku turns Super Saiya-jin (other than some sort of physical/aura amalgamation between the golden aura of the SSJ state and the red aura of Kaio-Ken).
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sintzu wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
When he says "battle power" he doesn't specify whether he's referring to the Saiya-jin's base power level or to the maximum he can output in his strongest Super Saiya-jin stage.
That's true but in FNF both of them were close in terms power even though Vegeta didn't reach Ssj3 and were even training together so if the form's power depended on the users strongest form then Vegeta wouldn't have been able to keep up with Goku during their training.
I know this is probably just coincidence but could him as a Ssj3 getting announced for Zenkai Battle Royal be a hint at him getting it in Super ? cause as far as I know the game doesn't have any what if's.
And who told you that by the time of Fukkatsu no F Vegeta didn't already become able to reach Super Saiya-jin 3? That was the whole center of the theory, that at some point between BoG and Fukkatsu no F Vegeta would have become/been able to become a Super Saiya-jin 3, and only after THAT did he become Super Saiya-jin God, and so on, incorporating the state's abilities and power and training along with Goku under Whis (pretty much following the exact same steps Goku did - Super Saiya-jin 2, Super Saiya-jin 3, Super Saiya-jin God, base with SSJG abilities and power, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin -, although just a bit later).
But again, and reverting to the beginning of this particular discussion, it's really just a theory based on the way I viewed what I consider to be a difference between the incremental, step-by-step Super Saiya-jin transformations, building up on the previous one, and Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. I highly doubt any of this will come to pass, they won't show Vegeta going Super Saiya-jin 3 and the whole theory collapses. Vegeta will just turn Super Saiya-jin God at some point slightly after the Beerus arc in DBSuper, and little or no attention will be paid to whatever his or Goku's previous Super Saiya-jin stages were, rendering them completely obsolete after they're able to become Super Saiya-jin God/Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin by themselves and totally master the stage(s).
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He'll get raped by Puar. Nah, seriously, everyone'll have their own time, but Yamcha's will play a much smaller role than, say, Krillin. The Tenshinhan + Chaozu duo has always been the most absent duo, and it got to a point in the later stages of DBZ (both in the Majin Buu arc and in the last movies) where not even Krillin was part of the active fighting team, but these last movies, specials and now DBSuper is doing a good job of (re)introducing each and every one of them. The kind of power Beerus, Whis, Goku and Vegeta have at this point, just to mention the very strongest, pretty much makes the likes of Yamcha totally and utterly obsolete as a fighter. That shouldn't mean he shouldn't get his screen-time, though, but, unlike Tenshinhan, for example, I doubt he'll partake in any fighting or land a single blow. Hasn't done so in BoG, whereas Tenshinhan did.
Both BoG and Fukkatsu no F had to be given careful thought as far as screen-time for the character goes, given the time restrictions typical of a movie, even larger ones like the last two. DBSuper, as a full-fledged series, has a lot more room to expand and give each and every one of them their time to shine (Muten Roshi made a surprising and hilarious out-of-nowhere entrance in the very first episode, for example).
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I doubt it will happen, but if there was a direct confrontation between Beerus and Champa (beyond a conversational one, or an argument, which we'll certainly get, as there seems to be some sort of rivalry/animosity between them), Beerus turns out to be stronger. I know it's never going to happen, but I'd like Beerus to beat the shit out of that overweight cat. We've already been introduced to the awesomeness of Beerus' character, he's already part of the family. However, it's more likely that they're mere counterparts with a friendly rivalry between them other than any serious animosity.
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I've been totally patient with the pace at which the events of DBSuper are being presented, and I'm well over the fact that we're basically getting both BoG and Fukkatsu no F retold in the form of arcs within the series pretty much in the exact same circumstances, but after one week(end) without an episode I'm suddenly feeling the urge to move forward with the story and have Champa introduced, Freeza's resurrection, Vegeta turning Super Saiya-jin God, Goku and Vegeta training under Whis and whatever/whoever the hell we'll be introduced to in the 6th Universe arc. We've over-debated all possible aspects surrounding the Beerus and Freeza arcs within DBSuper when related to the movie versions, and according to the calculations/estimates earlier today in another thread we won't be "done" with the Beerus and Freeza arcs by the 23/25 episode. Goddamn it, I need to watch some ferocious fighting against insanely powerful villains with the entire Universe(s) at stake, already.
Hopefully by tomorrow this sensation will be gone and I'll get back to normal.
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Gyt Kaliba wrote:
I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we ended up seeing Yamcha in the Super version of Resurrection 'F'. The same goes for Boo, Goten, and Trunks. With how quickly Super was announced after the new movie, I can't help but think that early on in the process of making F, Toriyama was displeased with having to cut the story around the runtime rather than fully running with whatever his ideas were, similar to how he had to cut out the entire team going after Beerus in the previous film (which is something I really want to see re-instated for this new version of the story). Only time will tell, but I'd imagine that they'll be there doing something in the arc, even if it's not major.
Yeah, Fukkatsu no F was pretty restrictive as far as the number of fighters belonging to the team who were present, much more so than BoG. I'm sure that without any time restrictions, they'll throw in Yamcha and pretty much everyone else in the Freeza arc, regardless of how insignificant their presence is and whether they even fight or not. Goten and Trunks will surely not only show up in the Freeza arc, but I'd go as far as speculate that they'll get some fighting time as well.
All of these recent in-depth discussions we've been having on the retelling of the movies as arcs is giving me more and more the impression that, regardless of the quality of BoG and Fukkatsu no F, the only way to fully please anyone and take every single character into account to give them the proper screen-time was to wait for DBSuper. Additionally, there's a number of off-screen events which "took place" between BoG and Fukkatsu no F that I'd like to have presented as well throughout the arc's episodes, especially Freeza's training, Vegeta reaching Super Saiya-jin God, Whis accepting to train both Goku and Vegeta and potentially some other expansion on just what the relationship between Freeza and Beerus exactly is when it comes to the decision to take out Planet Vegeta and the Saiya-jin as a race. With a full-fledged series, there's no excuse for them NOT to explore and expand upon a number of previously unseen events. But damn, I was totally ok with it until now, but after a week(end) without an episode I'm starting to get anxious and feel the need for new episodes not only to see what new concepts they've introduced in the Beerus arc when compared to BoG, but also and especially to move along with storyline. One episode per week seemed just right until now, but now I'm getting the feeling that it's just not enough to ease my need for new Dragonball material.
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Again in the field of pure speculation, Champa could either be a long-time contender of Beerus for the position of Hakaishin of the 7th Universe (hence the animosity apparent between them), he could belong to the same race or even be a direct relative of Beerus', he could be the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe (a rather likely possibility, as he has his own attendant much in the same way Beerus has Whis), or he could even be behind some more serious, evil scheme which might have something to do with the 6th Universe. There are other possibilities other than these. We'll just have to wait and see as the info and the episodes come out.
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Thank you. I don't put a lot of emphasis on my birthday anymore, for a number of reasons, putting it mildly, but I do appreciate the regards people send me for my birthday.
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We've got some tools to generate a theory and predict who Champa really is and just what his relationship with Beerus is.
First of all, Beerus said there are 12 Universes in total. Then we got to know that in DBSuper we'll be exploring one of those other Universes, the 6th. Champa has a similar appearance to Beerus, he's a cat as well (regardless of how unimaginative that is or not), wears the same type of clothing and has an attendant just the same way Beerus does. The easiest theory to postulate is that Champa is just the Hakaishin of the 6th Universe they'll be exploring, and that for some reason he has some long-time rivalry/animosity towards Beerus (they may have competed for the position of Hakaishin of the 6th or the 7th Universes, they may have competed for millions of years to see who's the strongest Hakaishin (Champa being the one for the 6th Universe, Beerus being the one for the 7th). Who knows?
However, I can't really see Champa becoming THE menace in DBSuper after the Freeza arc, although he might be the one to create the problems that need to be fixed with the usage of the Super Dragon Balls in the first place. Sharing an animosity/friendly rivalry with another deity doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go around becoming a major villain in the series.
My best bet is that Champa is just the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe and has always shared an ages-long animosity/rivalry with Beerus over their respective powers, pretty much competing with each other to see which one does their job better and/or which one is more powerful, just like the relationship Vegeta has towards Goku. They could also have competed for the position of Hakaishin for a particular Universe and Beerus was chosen over Champa, relegating the latter to a lower position, causing a lot of bitterness on the part of Champa, who decides at this point to take some sort of revenge on Beerus by defying him or doing who-knows-what (pretty much the same way Garlic Jr. wants revenge on Kami for the fact that the latter was chosen over his father to the throne of Earth's Guardian).
Just speculations, and no point in going any further with them. We'll just have to wait and see what actually happens and what exactly the story is between these two and the 4 of them, hopefully no later than right after the Freeza arc, which should be "done with" by episode 23/25, according to our estimates. But if I had to put my money on a particular scenario, I'd definitely go for Champa just being the Hakaishin for the 6th Universe exactly in the same way Beerus is the Hakaishin for the 7th, and their ages-long relationship generated competition/rivalry/animosity between them. If it is indeed Champa who turns out to be the major villain/antagonist in DBSuper, at least in the 6th Universe, then I'll have to say that I'd be disappointed. I don't want another laid-back fat cat to be the best villain they could come up with, I want 2015's version of a maniacal, genocidal, ruthless, absolutely evil villain with mind-boggling powers threatening the entire Universe(s), going past Goku, Vegeta and the others and actually INCLUDING Beerus and Whis. Considering the target audience DBSuper is mostly directed towards, we may end up with an overall much smoother and lighter series and events than we did throughout the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, and we'll laugh at/cry over the comparison between the degree of seriousness, drama, evil, blood and violence present in DBSuper and the same elements in the Saiya-jin, Freeza and Cell arcs.
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I think that after over-discussing the whole issue of having both BoG and Fukkatsu no F retold as arcs within DBSuper, almost in the exact same circumstances, with a few changes and adaptations here and there, we're over any disappointment over the issue and pretty much accepted the road they chose to go down. After all this time, I think it's a pretty simple matter to summarize what happened with the way they handled the success (and the potential) of BoG as a story while at the same time planning to generate an entire full-fledged new series after 18 years. We can look at the recent movies/specials/Kai as a process of revitalization of Dragonball after 11 years of absolute inactivity which would - deliberately or not - eventually lead to the real explosion: a new series. Toriyama felt that the story, characters and events depicted in BoG had so much potential to them that he "needed" to give full extension to the whole ideas he didn't have time to explore in the theatrical movie, due to the time restrictions typical of a film, and while he intended to move further and go with an entire new series, he basically joined the two concepts together and that's why we ended up with a retelling of BoG almost on a sentence-by-sentence basis (as far as the serious plot involving Beerus/Whis/Super Saiya-jin God goes), in pretty much the same exact circumstances although at a different timing. Like in the DB and DBZ episodes, which (understandably) contained a rather large amount of filler material for well-explained reasons, in DBSuper they also amalgamated the process of (re)introducing every character in the first two/three smooth family-oriented episodes along with the need to "fill" the episodes with more animation depicting character-specific funny/comic events, some with more success than others.
What could still be debatable - and we may indeed never reach a full final conclusion on this - is whether or not it really was necessary to "decanonize" BoG and Fukkatsu no F by changing the timing at which the events take place, after we all went through the process of accepting the 2008 special, BoG and Fukkatsu no F as direct canon continuations of Dragonball's timeline, especially only 2 years and a few months, respectively, after the movies were released. We suddenly had to reverse the entire process again, but I think that by now virtually every fan has accepted that and is AT LEAST satisfied with the result of the first three episodes we've already witnessed; the only issue remaining is the fact that, by retelling events, characters and stages we've already been introduced to, repackaging the movies' stories as the Beerus and Freeza arcs has the serious potential to disappoint a large chunk of fans. We've already estimated that it very reasonably shouldn't take any more than 23/25 episodes to go through both arcs and get to the real entirely new material in the 6th Universe arc, but that amounts to a few months worth of reactions like "meh, we've already seen this stuff, we already what's going to happen, how could they decide to dedicate over 20 episodes of an entirely new series to the exact same events we were presented with just 2 years and a few months ago, respectively?" That's enough to discourage a few fans by itself, but thankfully almost everybody seems to be hanging on and accepting the way they chose to do it (or tolerate it, at least). There's always new stuff to discover in every episode, even taking into account that we alternate between reintroductions and interactions of major characters and the gradual and incremental depiction of the Beerus/Whis duo (also in a somewhat more mysterious and chilling way when compared to the way we were introduced to them and their characters in the first fifth of BoG, and indeed throughout the rest of the entire movie).
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Uub was introduced weeks after they showed Kid Buu's defeat. The whole Majin Buu arc was too much present in everyone's minds, hence the concept of a reincarnated Kid Buu. That's not the case anymore. That was back in 1996, it's been 19 years. We've been over-debating the potential retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ (last Tenkaichi Budokai and introduction of Uub), and, unlike BoG and Fukkastu no F, and more like the rest of the arcs throughout the entirety of DBZ, I doubt they'll touch it. The mistake was made at that moment and it can't be undone now.
I personally have always failed to create any empathy towards Uub, and - I've stated this numerous times already - I never liked the way they chose to end DBZ, especially taking into account we get a 10 year time-skip between episodes 288 and 289; on one hand, it gives us ten years to explore, but, unless they retcon those last 3 episodes of DBZ, whatever happens in DBSuper will eventually and inevitably lead to that, and for some reason it doesn't really seem or "feel" like at the time everyone meets again and Goku fights Uub they went through the whole Beerus, Super Saiya-jin God, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, 6th Universe arc events.
I honestly think Toriyama wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible after the titanic battle against Majin/Kid Buu, after over a decade of an incessant process of creativity regarding new characters, stages, events for DBZ. In 1996 he was (understandably) tired and consumed by the pressure of having to come up with new stories worthy of the fantastic history of DB's later and all of DBZ's arcs, which is one of the main reasons for his lack of involvement of GT right after that. They went for GT right away purely for commercial reasons, which is never the right thing to do and why, for a number of over-debated reasons and factors, GT was little more than a disaster in terms of character background, fighting, character development and interactions, storyline, etc. In fact, we can already see in the Majin Buu arc a few signs or hints that he was pretty much just running out of ideas, which is why (at least in my personal opinion) the Majin Buu arc is the least fantastic of DBZ. In fact, apart from the concept of Ultimate Gohan, Vegitto, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and some of the fights against the various forms of Super Buu and Kid Buu, the best/most dramatic/serious parts of the entire arc appear in the early stages of the saga, with Dabura, Vegeta being possessed by Babidi and the (fantastic) showdown between Super Saiya-jin 2 Majin Vegeta and Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku. Fat Majin Buu is just likeable a character to be considered a major villain to be taken seriously (which is why, in fact, they recognized this in time and changed the entire concept by expanding upon his history and background, going back to a physically menacing-seeming villain like Super Buu/Kid Buu, providing acceptable explanations for why he ended up in his fat form like he did).
However, I'm deviating from the original conversation at hand somewhat. Just wanted to share my thoughts on the many ramifications of the Majin Buu arc, leading up to its conclusion with the last Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub. In no way does it compare or come close to all the previous arcs (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell) in terms of seriousness/hopelessness/drama, but that's just my personal opinion. The Majin Buu arc had its fantastic moments as well, and I've described them, but it also has shortcomings, which are totally lacking in all the other arcs I've listed.
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If not by themselves, it could be that they do fight, although as Gotenks (against Beerus, just like in BoG). Although Gotenks never appealed too much to me and he came rather close to annoy me at times during the Majin Buu arc, he's an extremely powerful fighter and serves the purpose of further proving Goten and Trunks' utility for fighting against antagonists with a power level in the tier of Majin Buu. Besides, Gotenks is indeed shown in the opening for DBSuper, and I hope that appearance is not just because he has a go at Beerus and nothing else for the remainder of the series.
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This is just a matter of personal opinion and taste, which is not supposed to be subject to criticism, but personally Uub has never, ever appealed to me. I welcomed Beerus and Whis with open arms not because they're new and "we need something or someone fresh to join the gang", but because of their awesome character(s) in a variety of ways.
As far as heroes go, I'd rather stick with the known ones (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Tenshinhan), not to play it safe, but because of the fantastic background and the wonderful history of fighting and dramatic events they went through for over a decade, which is a gradual process of granting them a place in your heart. Uub is an Earthling who, despite having an enormous potential, reminds me a lot of Nam for a variety of reasons, has never fought anybody and appears in three episodes; he missed more than 99% of DB and DBZ's fantastic arcs. For no reason has he earned a place in my heart when it comes to Dragonball. Sorry to put it so bluntly and coldly for you Uub fans/admirers/supporters, but that's just my personal position, and you're entitled to yours.
Your reasoning makes total sense, though, but I can't lie to you and tell you that I want your small glimpse of hope turns out to become a reality. I do hope - and I've already stated that I DON'T think it'll happen - that the last 3 episodes of DBZ get retconned, and consequently that that last Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub become non-canon and are "erased" from the series timeline's history. And I bet, for the reasons I specified in my previous post, that if Toriyama could go back in time he would never go for that 10 year-time-skip, that Tenkaichi Budokai and the introduction of Uub.
Speaking of favorite characters, some of you might already reasoned that Vegeta and Piccolo are among them, but, even though I refuse to generate an all-time personal ranking, my all-time favorite characters from the entirety of Dragonball are Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan (these three for their charisma, pride and especially their stoic, serious, and previously-evil background), Cell (in his perfect form), Dabura (I have a fascination for the concept of "the devil", and Dabla's appearance is pretty much the incarnation of it), Piccolo Daimao (my avatar says it all, I think) and, for other reasons and only for certain, very specific and particular periods of time, Goku (when he fights Nappa and Vegeta, when he displays his unbelievable power to Ginyu, and finally when he loses it and turns Super Saiya-jin and avenges his race) and Gohan (when he loses it and thrashes the Cell Juniors and Cell as a Super Saiya-jin 2, and in the brief episodes in which he dominates Super Buu as an adult, and only in these two circumstances, and in no others). Not a big fan of Gohan overall, of Krillin, or of Yamcha, for example.
Not including non-canon, movie characters or villains here, otherwise there would be more in the list.
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Ushabtis wrote:
never liked uub...He didn't win me over in GT either. Found him kinda boring. I'd rather Toriyama not even think about the EOZ and have Super go anywhere it wants without worries of stepping on the toes of previous canons (eoz, gt, etc)
You can pretty much cease even caring about GT, it's officially non-canon, but as far as the last 3 episodes of DBZ go, you basically share my thoughts that it would be good if that last Tenkaichi Budokai and Uub were just basically "erased" from history, correcting an error made 19 years ago for the reasons I've explained, one which Toriyama probably wishes he would have never have made in the first place. The hastily invented background for Uub was a direct result of Toriyama's tiredness after over a decade of a constant process of fantastic creativity, which by the time of Majin Buu, and especially its end, he just couldn't stand anymore, when it comes to pressure. He wanted to put an end to DBZ as soon as possible after Kid Buu's defeat and threw whatever little sliver of creativity he had left at that point and out came Uub as a reincarnation of a character who had been killed just 3 episodes before, who leaves off in Goku's back. I don't know, but for more than one reason this just doesn't seem a worthy ending for a series that gave us the Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr., Saiya-jin, Freeza, Jinzouningen, Cell and, to some degree, Majin Buu sagas.
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Ushabtis wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
You can pretty much cease even caring about GT, it's officially non-canon
I will always like GT regardless of its Canon status.
I don't, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether it's canon or not (I love some of the 13 Movies from DBZ and they're utterly non-canon). I've been over-repeating myself on a number of positions, you need only read my thoughts on GT which I previously posted.
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Galan007 wrote:
MaGyunia wrote:
This is just a matter of personal opinion and taste, which is not supposed to be subject to criticism, but personally Uub has never, ever appealed to me.
The idea of Oob is more appealing to me than Oob himself was actually portrayed, if that makes sense.
It does, I get what you mean. But for the reasons I've stated before, the entire concept didn't produce a satisfactory result (at least for me), especially due to how quickly Toriyama wanted to just put an end to DBZ. The CONCEPT of an entirely new fighter with the potential to get Goku (and the others) excited, though, could be something worth exploring, regardless of whether he's a good guy, a mere rival/antagonist or a full-fledged villain. However, even though it took 17 years for Toriyama to get it done, we got that potential entirely fulfilled with the introduction of Beerus, for example.
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NeoKING wrote:
I've been re-watching all of Super, to capture the charm that the series attempts to give its viewers. The OP is okay, but I like how it teases at the future. Ultimate Gohan in civilian clothes? Cool. I always thought we needed more non-orange gi good guys. Goku and Vegeta walking towards whatever they're walking towards? Interesting. Episodes 1-3? Not worth it.
Super just reminds me of those shoddy Duel Masters remakes that ShoPro would do. Except it's not as good.
Well, then just imagine if BoG was never released at all and we were being introduced to Beerus and Whis for the very first time. Now THAT would be getting all of us exceedingly hyped. A cat suddenly blowing planets away in mysterious circumstances in what appears to be the setting for an upcoming confrontation between him and his attendant and Goku, Vegeta and the others, in search of something called "Super Saiya-jin God". If we hadn't seen BoG, among an interminable list of other things, we'd be thinking he's closer to an evil character than he actually is, given his somewhat more serious/chilling portrayal in DBSuper when compared to the movie.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, back on track, new episode today. Goddamn it, that last week without one produced much more serious consequences in me than I could ever expect. It's good to be back on the routine. Hyped to see those hardly-outlined parts of Pilaf and Beerus and the latter's arrival on Kaiou-sama's planet. I wonder how different (or how exactly the same) the interactions and lines will be between him and Kaiou-sama, between Kaiou-sama and Goku, and finally between Beerus and Goku, leading up to their fight. Can't wait to see the series' version of Goku getting KO'd, and I do hope that they stretch they fight just a little bit longer (in the movie it takes less than a minute for Goku to be rendered unconscious counting from the moment he first charges against Beerus, it should take a minute and a half in the fifth episode). :D
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Again, multiple hypothesis, but the strongest ones are:
- Either Champa is a long-time rival of Beerus who competed with him for the position of Hakaishin for the 7th Universe and wants revenge on him (along the lines of Garlic Jr. against Kami)
- Or Champa is the Hakaishin of the 6th Universe (which is a strong possibility, as we'll be exploring that same Universe and Champa not only has obvious physical resemblances to Beerus, but also his own attendant, exactly like Beerus has Whis)
I just hope they don't turn Champa into the main villain in DBSuper. He obviously shares some degree of animosity/friendly rivalry with Beerus, but that should be it. He won't be neither good nor evil, just like Beerus, and he won't take sides, just like Beerus (except, for some reason, against Beerus himself, in order to get some sort of revenge on him). Sharing such a strong resemblance to Beerus, and given his physical appearance, he's just too likeable a character to be the main villain in the series. I want psychotic, maniacal evil screwed-up maniacs as villains like we had them throughout the later stages of DB and DBZ, not cats who, despite their unbelievable power, have no intention to torture or conquer others in a sadistic/narcissistic manner, going around experiencing food and displaying comic traits, which we've already seen in Beerus in numerous instances.
By the way, I didn't say I wanted them to stretch the Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku vs Beerus on Kaiou-sama's planet by too much, just a little bit longer. Beerus getting Goku KO'd easily and quickly should be maintained, as it's a fundamental part of showing just how much of a gap there is between their powers at that stage.
I'd also like, and I'm pretty sure we'll get it, longer versions of Piccolo's, #18's, Tenshinhan's, Gotenks', Gohan's and Vegeta's attempts on Beerus. Vegeta did get his second shot after he lost it over Bulma, but all of them were dispatched with one blow. Just too quickly. Let's have some more awesome fighting, please.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
It won't surprise me if Toriyama does rewrite the end of DBZ in some way, but I still think the ending still fits with the series so far. Goku has already absorbed God’s power and made it his own which explains why Goku does not need to use SSj anymore. It can also explain why Goku didn't go SSj when he fought Uub when he pissed him off. Uub after being angry show off on how strong he can be and Goku knew that he can train him into something even stronger.
Yeah, Goku could very well be using his base form after having absorbed the abilities and powers of the Super Saiya-jin God stage (like he did while fighting Beerus in BoG and while trying to land a punch on Whis in Fukkatsu no F), there's definitely room to fit that in so it makes sense. I didn't say the introduction of Uub didn't make sense at all, I just said I didn't like it for the reasons I listed and detailed.
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Well, that's the least likely of a reason why he wouldn't go SSJ against Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai. So unlikely a reason that it never even crossed my mind, in fact. Goku doesn't give a flying f*** about what people think about him or his fighting abilities, unlike Gohan (or Bulma), or to some degree thought it would be a problem in terms of publicity and harassment if the public in general knew about their superhuman powers.
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I feel the relief and utter bliss of watching the minutes drawing inexorably closer and closer to another episode after two weeks stuck with over-discussing a number of issues without actually getting an episode to put forth our thoughts about.
Goddamn it, this experience never gets old, never thought that at 32 years of age in 2015 we'd all be watching a new episode from an entirely new Dragonball series at the same time all over the world every weekend. It's really hard to express how this atmosphere feels, and it hasn't changed a bit so far ever since the series debuted.
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Yeah, if we get this hyped at events and characters we've already been introduced to in BoG almost in the same exact circumstances, imagine witnessing entirely unexplored and new events, fights and villains some 20/22 episodes from now.
Anyway, 23 minutes to go.
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The amount of rivals to Goku who "stepped over" Vegeta's rivalry with Kakarotto throughout the Jinzouningen, Cell and Majin Buu arcs, not to mention the (non-canon) movies is so great that I think he's well over the fact that he's not the only one after him. Besides, by this time it's not really being after him, it's leaning more towards a friendly rivalry than towards a bitter desire for killing him. He's basically back to the whole "I'll surpass you, Kakarotto", "I'll show you, Kakarotto", "I'll be above all in the entire Universe" routine. And that's good for him, for the good guys and for the series altogether. Although his pride has caused him some bitter defeats and unpleasant moments in the past, it's also his not-so-healthy obsession to surpass Kakarotto that always helped him to push over his limits and reach new stages of power. Add to that the fact that he's a gifted, fighting genius with a huge ego and the fact that he's a pure Saiya-jin fighting maniac, and you've got Vegeta.
Vegeta teaming up with/helping others tossing his pride aside for a minute is not a new thing at all. He did it to help Gohan defeat Cell once and for all, he did it during the Majin Buu arc, he did it in BoG. It's a good thing he's regressed and is bent on surpassing everyone again (especially Kakarotto).
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Here it comes.
Hakaishin Birusu-sama !
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I doubt we'll get as many alternations between the Beerus/Whis duo and other characters. The third episode focused a lot more on Beerus than the first two did. It's pretty obvious that about half of it will be dedicated to Pilaf's schemes and the preparations for Bulma's birthday party, and the other half to Beerus trip and arrival on Kaiou-sama's planet. Really looking forward to those hard-streamlined pieces of animation. Can't hide that I actually like them, but I wouldn't want an entire series like that. It was used in Movie 12 but in rather comic/humorous/inoffensive circumstances.
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First thoughts: far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang.
One of the differences between the series and BoG is the fact that Pilaf doesn't immediately and automatically recognize/mistake Goten for Goku upon seeing him.
Funny how much of a difference there is between how Kaiou-sama presents the concept of Beerus to Goku. He straight away tells Goku who he is without even trying to hide it from him, deeply contrasting with what we saw in BoG. Although he does try to hide Goku from Beerus, he doesn't really seem to be nearly as terrified at the prospect of having Beerus as a guest and especially at the possibility of Goku taking a (fighting) interest in Hakaishin Beerus.
Based on the preview for the fifth episode, there will indeed be a much lengthier battle than that of BoG. There are Ki blasts, Goku does charge and attack while at Super Saiya-jin/Super Saiya-jin 2 instead of going all out (Super Saiya-jin 3) from the beginning. The way Beerus defeats Goku might be different as well. The battle will probably fill almost the entire episode as well.
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And it just so happened that the scene I was most looking forward in the previous episode's preview (Beerus with thick lines smiling in Kaiou-sama's planet) was the last one to be shown in the episode. Just like I said, far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang.
Can't say I'm disappointed, I guess the next episode will definitely make up for this one. We'll finally get to see some serious all-out fighting (on Goku's part) for the first time in DBSuper. He did seem much more serious about the concept of a "Hakai no Kami" than he did in BoG.
Can't wait to have Goku get overwhelmed at every single stage he attacks Beerus at. It really looks like it will take the battle with last much longer than it did in the movie (we need to remember that Goku was rendered unconscious in a matter of a minute from the moment he first charges Beerus until the point he gets the pressure-point attack on his neck).
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nekobi wrote:
Anyone else notice the weird thick lines at times during the animation? Seemed weird to me! I liked the episode though and next week looks exciting. :D
That was actually over-discussed and associations were made with the way Movie 12 looked when Goten + Trunks fight Hitler and Mr. Satan fights the zombies. Looks exceedingly good at some points, but the contrast is just too great, and I wouldn't like an entire series drawn that way either. It's just too unreal.
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Funny how Vegeta reacts differently to Bulma when compared to other, regular people. He's utterly dismissive at that employee, but after Bulma scolds him he gives the entire impression he'll give up and indeed join the gang in her party.
It was an interesting addition to the series. We've already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's gravity room training before (Bulma, in episode 124), but this time it was just a nameless employee he couldn't care less about.
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I honestly think this was the least good episode from all 4 we've witnessed so far (again, just far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang), but I'm also entirely sure that episode 5 will fully compensate for it. Things will finally get serious in the fighting department.
It seems there's a correlation between how good an episode is and how much time we spend with Beerus. :D
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Ushabtis wrote:
SSJ God Gogeta wrote:
I'm still not crazy about them retelling BoG and that other movie...
I'm actually very interested in how they'll handle ROF. many cool things happen in that movie. old Fighters get time to shine against some mooks and such. Having ROF being expanded upon and fleshed out more would definitely make the movie stronger. Also biggest reason why I'm looking forward to ROF Arc. Jaco! :mrgreen:
It's not just the number of events that happen DURING the movie, it's also about the events that took place OFF-SCREEN in the movie. There's a number of stuff I'd really like them to expand upon and fully explain regarding Fukkatsu no F in its DBSuper arc counterpart. To be honest, there's more to be explored in the Freeza arc when compared to Fukkatsu no F than there is in the Beerus arc when compared to BoG. I just hope our estimates are right and we get only one or two episodes to make the transition between one arc and the other, and that the overall number of episodes to cover the retelling of both the Beerus arc (10/11 episodes) and the Freeza arc (another 10/11) amounts to no more than 22/23, or at most 25.
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Final note in this first review: I loved the way Beerus' tail flapped while traveling at super-speed on Whis' back for all those seconds. You just can't get enough of Beerus, no matter how insignificant his actions are or how little screen-time he gets.
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sintzu wrote:
It's nice to see they animated sparks for Ssj3.
Hopefully they'll do the same for Ssj2 so we'll be able to tell the difference between it and Ssj1.
It's obvious that they'll stretch the fight between Goku and Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet for quite a bit longer when compared to the minute it took for Beerus to KO Goku from the moment he first charged at him in BoG. One of the major differences between a full-fledged series, without the time restraints typical of a movie, and the movie itself, depicting the same (almost) exact events, is the fact that the whatever "little" (or not so little) additions we'll get can make quite a large impression on fans. In the movie, Goku basically shows off by presenting all of this three Super Saiya-jin stages to Beerus (much in the same way the did to fat Majin Buu and Babidi), even going as far as saying that he can go back to SSJ2 if Beerus wants to, but only charges at this strongest, SSJ3 stage.
On the other hand, it would be good if the time they put into the fight is just right for them to explore other techniques and for us to witness some major awesome fighting while at the same time having Beerus KO Goku just as simply, easily and almost as quickly as he did in BoG, as that is a fundamental aspect to demonstrate the degree of the gap there is between even someone as incredibly powerful as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Hakaishin Beerus.
I hope that if Goku charges at Beerus at every single one of his three SSJ stages, they don't forget to add the blue lightning to his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage. They handled it right regarding Goku and Vegeta throughout the Majin Buu arc, but after so many years (almost two decades) mistakes and imperfections could definitely occur.
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Collecting all of my thoughts/reviews/positions on this particular episode which I wrote separately in different, small posts right after the episode ended airing:
- Far too much time spent with the Pilaf Gang, but we'll get compensated for that in the next episode, which, up until yesterday, I thought wouldn't be almost entirely dedicated to the fight between Goku and Beerus (and it will).
- Difference between BoG and DBSuper: Pilaf not automatically and immediately making a connection with Goku from their early DB adventures upon seeing Goten, which was to be expected after what we saw in BoG.
- The thick outlining looks "tasty", and we'll almost certainly get a number of different animation teams for DBSuper's episodes (although nowhere near the number of different animations teams for DB and DBZ, which was over 10 and worked in the episodes on a very easily identifiable alternate basis, if you understand what I mean by "alternate").
- It had been pointed out by almost all of us that the thick outlining we saw in some shots of the third episode's preview reminded us immediately and automatically of the animation of Movie 12, particularly the somewhat comic fight between Goten + Trunks against Hitler and Mr. Satan vs the zombies, but I wouldn't want an entire series of Dragonball animated that way. Just too unreal.
- We're done with the process of (re)introducing the characters in the first smooth family-oriented episodes, and that was a clever move to start off the series with (while at the same time presenting us with chilling/mysterious appearances by Beerus and Whis, just at the right pace), but now, at episode 5, it's time to start the serious fighting and actually (re)watch Goku get utterly dominated by Beerus. The minute the fight took in BoG was nothing to complain about, but it's definitely possible to extend the fight just the right way while at the same time displaying Beerus' enormous edge over Goku by having him barely react to ANY of Goku's attacks, and finally rendering him unconscious just as easily as he did in the movie.
- We had already seen someone interrupting Vegeta's training in the gravity room before (Jinzouningen arc, episode 124, Bulma), but this time it's an employee "Vegeta-sama" (not even "-san", she actually adds "-sama" to his name (!), probably out of a combination between respect and especially FEAR) Vegeta couldn't care less about, instead of someone he can and does occasionally cut some slack (namely, and especially, his immediate human family).
- Interesting to note just how much of a difference there is between the leverage Bulma has over Vegeta when compared to the (non-existant) leverage most other living beings do. The employee is treated rudely, as would be expectectable by Vegeta, especially in a setting in which she dares to interrupt his training, but as soon as Bulma scolds him, no matter how utterly important his training sessions are to him, he just can't say no to her. This is a perfect way to show just how the once proud, previously utterly evil and ruthless Saiya-jin prince restraints his natural violent/anti-social tendencies when it comes to dealing with the concept of a family and living beings who actually mean something to him deep down, perhaps even better than having him lose it over her being slapped or over Cell killing Mirai no Trunks in the late stage of the Cell Games, which is just too expectable and predictable.
One thing I've never mentioned regarding the content of DBSuper so far is how little time Piccolo - as one of my two favorite character from the entire Dragonball Universe - has been getting. I understand there's not a lot of time or reason for him to show up other than in serious/dramatic circumstances which demand both power and wisdom/intelligence, but he's been getting entirely an awful lot less time than I'd like it. It's the very first time I mentioned this ever in here, regarding DBSuper, but I'll guess we'll somewhat be also compensated for it when Beerus encounters the fighters on Earth and Piccolo, among the others, will have his shot at Beerus. I like the concept of having him rendered unconscious with two pressure-point touches to his body, but nevermind that, I want him to land more than a single kick (although I want his attacks, just like that of almost all others, to get blocked just as easily and effortlessly as they were in BoG).
Not going to go AGAIN into the whole "retconning of the last 3 episodes of DBZ and make Uub non-canon, etc.". It's been debated to death. Pretty much every single theory as been presented in the last days and weeks on that subject. We'll just have to wait and see how exactly they handle it, just like we'll have to wait to see exactly at what time and in what circumstances Champa (and his attendant) will be introduced, and just what his relationship to Beerus is, although also in this department pretty much every possible theory has already been postulated recently in the last few days.
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I hope that they dedicate almost the entirety of episode 5 to the introduction of Beerus to Goku and their subsequent fight, with some minor "interruptions". Judging by the preview, it really looks and feels like, beyond it mere being the focal point of the episode, the interaction/fight will take up about three quarters of the episode, which suits me just fine.
I hope they explore the potential of something along the lines of:
Goku *turns Super Saiya-jin*: "This is a stage that enables me to beat the likes of Freeza"
Beerus: "Hmm, hmm..."
*Goku launches at Beerus and doesn't even literally touch him*
Goku *turns Super Saiya-jin": This is the stage that enables me to beat an even more powerful villain we faced, Cell"
Beerus: "Right..."
*Goku has a go at Beerus and doesn't even literally touch Beerus, starting to get a little frustrated and irritated*
Goku *turns Super Saiya-jin 3": "And this is the MIGHTY Super Saiya-jin 3, which puts me in the leagues of Majin Buu and makes me one of the most powerful fighters in the Universe; I can go back to Super Saiya-jin 2, if you want"
Beerus: "No, no, that will do just fine. Come at me at full power, if you will"
*Goku nervously proceeds to try to catch up with Beerus, who dodges every single punch and kick, is knocked to the ground with no effort, gets blown away across part of the planet, flies up to the air, is invited by Beerus to continue, throws a full-power Kamehameha at Beerus, to absolutely no avail, and after a few more (now rather desperate) attempts, partially destroys Kaiou-sama's planet in the process*
*Beerus is unfazed and knocks Goku out with a single pressure point to the neck, or to some other area of his body, causing him to revert to his base form, barely breathing, rendering him unconscious.*
I hope that after whatever the exact version/sequence of the fight turns out to be, after Beerus KO's Goku, he whistles just like he did in BoG. There are some (indeed, a lot of) particular parts of BoG that absolutely NEED to be kept in the DBSuper's version of the story, most of them minor (major) details.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
I see no subbed version anywhere. What's the fun of watching it raw if you don't know Japanese?! :?
Anyways, I skipped forward to the episode preview for now. Finally, an episode I'm pretty hyped for. The battle seems a bit different than the one in the movie. =D
You don't need to be absolutely fluent in Japanese or have it as your nationality to get a large chunk of what's happening and indeed what they're saying. After nearly a decade of watching every single episode of DBZ (and most of the later stages of DB) in Japanese almost on a daily basis for hundreds of times, and relating what I'm hearing to the subtitles, I found myself having learned enough Japanese to the point where I don't really need subtitles to pretty much understand every single line in an episode.
Can't believe you skipped the entire episode. You don't skip a new Dragonball episode which has just seen the light of day after 18 years without a series, one which you've never seen before in your life, man. But I'm not criticizing you. Everyone has the right to be as much as fan of Dragonball as they feel like/want to.
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Beerus-sama wrote:
I can't help but feel sorry for North Kaio... The poor guy has suffered a lot since Goku arrived there,
here's a list of things Goku did:
Made Kaio crash against his house, causing it to collapse
didn't help Kaio to repair his house and even has the guts to eat all of his food while he does so.
Ruined the grass in the planet by pulling those weights of who knows how much tons
Cleaned Kaio with a dirty towel after scaring him for hearing a conversation that he doesn't needs to hear (he even laughed at him when Kaio got himself painted :o )
Will destroy Kaio's planet with the battle with Beerus in the next episode
Most probably will not make the wish to revive Kaio and the others when they call Shenlon for the SSG
Poor guy....
And that's counting only the stuff he did in DBSuper (so far). He basically has no respect towards Kaiou-sama and uses his "once-sacred" planet for training/eating purposes whenever the f*** he feels like, abandoning his family to do it. But the worst Goku has ever done to Kaiou-sama was obviously to cause his DEATH by having Cell transported to his planet and exploding there (after all these years I still can't think of a reasonable explanation on why Goku didn't just drop Cell there and had himself along with Kaiou-sama, Bubbles and Gregory Shunkan-Idoued to Earth or just any other place with living beings - remember that we're talking about Goku here, he was at a stage where he probably could have done all of this in a matter of less than a second, but the purpose was obviously to have Goku actually die at the hands of Cell, in order to have Gohan step over and become the new protagonist of DBZ after that, an intention which was an utterly failed move).
It's because of stuff like this that Goku is much less of a "pure-hearted" being than Gohan. Gohan is 100% good, has got no sliver of evil in him, but on top of that he's well-mannered, well-spoken, extremely respectful towards not only deities, but pretty much every single living being who doesn't happen to really push him to the top and really piss him off.
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I just thought of something (actually, I've thought about many parts of the whole thing at different times for a long time but only now put the entire picture together).
Regarding the "ranking" of the deities, we were first introduced to the Kami (God) of Earth. He was obviously considered to be the strongest being on the planet at the time of his first appearance, given his title. Then we get to meet Kaiou-sama, compared to whom any Guardian of any planet, like Kami, for example, is nothing.
In the episodes right after the Cell Games (I mean, from 195 to 200, with Goku meeting and fighting Paiku-han, etc.) we get to know that there are other Kaiou-samas, in fact one for each quadrant of the Universe. On top of that, there is even one MORE, reigning above the 4 of them.
Then, early in the Majin Buu arc, we're introduced to the Kaioshin, who is supposed to be the supreme deity in the Universe at the time as well, and later on it's revealed that he's actually just one of yet another set of 4 under YET another supreme ruler above all of them (the fat one now supposed to be the supreme deity in the Universe).
The Kaioshin are so "untouchable" and unreachable deities that Kaiou-sama himself says at some point that not even himself has had the honor of meeting him (at that point there was already just one). I think "unreachable" (even physically) is actually the pretty much the perfect adjective to describe them, taking into account the circumstances.
In terms of "ranking", the Beerus/Whis duo, being Hakaishin and respective attendant, might be looked at from a different perspective and put separately when compared to all other deities, instead of below or above them, but when it comes to power, there's obviously no doubt that Beerus is the strongest deity (and that's what he is).
However, despite being above ANY of the Kaioshin, and consequently much higher than all the Kaiou-samas and Dai Kaiou-sama, to the point of frightening all of them to death, and unlike the Kaioshin, Beerus had no problems with presenting himself to such a lower deity as Kaiou-sama at some point a long time ago, or in fact to anyone else. He's much more "reachable", in that sense, although if he does "reach" you you'll probably be blown to bits along with the planet you live in.
This accessibility and laid-backness just goes to show and further confirm Beerus' unique character. He pretty much does what he wants, to whomever he wants, whenever he wants, disregarding any rankings except the one that makes him the highest of all deities. The concept is totally new.
Besides, the balance of deities/demons/power levels was so upset during and after the Majin Buu arc, due to the fact that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan managed to overcome even the highest deities and destroy the then-thought to be unbeatable Majin Buu, that, despite never having had the "honor" of meeting the Kaioshin, Kaiou-sama (at least in BoG) directly speaks to Kibitoshin, which is quite a drastic change.
I'm not going to make a list or a ranking of deities or anything, I just wanted to share yet ANOTHER aspect of Beerus' character that utterly sets him apart from any other character in the entire series, be it a villain, a friendly rival or a full-fledged martial artist fighting for good. This neutrality, coupled with his comic traits and laid-backness, was either subject to a lot of thought by Toriyama's best genius moments, or it was one of the luckiest concepts to arise from his creative process EVER (and that's saying a lot, considering the fantastic history of all the arcs between the later stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ).
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Sandubadear wrote:
What does the 150,000 line mean? Are the power levels screwed up again, or Vegeta actually meant that 150k was the gravity level?
Also, why is Gregory even appearing if he's not going to nag like usual?
When Vegeta talks about "150.000" he's referring to the level of gravity he has just conquered during these last training sessions.
Gregory is there and he may not utter a single line throughout DBSuper at all, but the point is to have as many characters from DBZ's past present (most of whom, and in fact almost every single of them, has and will continue to receive fair treatment properly and appropriately respecting their fantastic past in the history of the series). Gregory has never been a major character, they chose to put him there as well as the ever-present training/companion animal duo keeping company to Kaiou-sama. Don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding Gregory's presence in the series. He's always been shown with Kaiou-sama from the beginning (Saiya-jin saga), and although I (also) always found him a little bit nagging, he kind of "deserves" to be present if Kaiou-sama and his planet will be playing a somewhat major role in the first episodes of the series.
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She has ALWAYS had quite a bit or arrogance/narcissism about her (especially her looks and her intellectual brilliance), which couples well with Vegeta's pride and past as royalty.
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Doctor. wrote:
150 THOUSAND times gravity or 150G?
Because the latter is what would make more sense.
Honestly I haven't rewatched the episode yet, I'd be able to tell you if I listened to what he says again. But it should be pointed out that as early as the Jinzouningen arc, he's shown training in the gravity room under a pressure of 300 and then 400, so 150 should be nothing for him by now (hence the possibility of 150.000). I'll just need to watch the episode again and I'll let you know, if nobody else does it before me.
"Sen" is 1.000, "Yaku" is 100, "gojiu" is 50, but then "man" is 10.000. If he says "Ichi yaku gojiu" then it's 150, and the right way to say 150.000 would be - I think - "Jiugo man" (literally, fifteen ten-thousands).
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